ISH Hall of Fame Project: Class of 1985 Voting

[G.O.A.T]

Inside Hoops Hall of Fame Project

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-fRpsLt4qi0Q/UghMvC1cy8I/AAAAAAAACiY/ke2wqmCZMAw/s1600/1985Part1Promo.jpg

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This thread is for the voting on the class of 1985.

You may make your own list or Copy and Paste the Ballot Below and bold the names of the players you want to vote into our Hall of Fame.

You can vote for up to ten players, but don't need to vote for any.

Base your selections and arguments on a players pro career (not just NB, but all pro leagues) as well as AAU (pre-1970), International and Olympic play. Do not consider a players impact off the court as that will be addressed when we vote in pioneers and contributors.

Feel free to include any arguments you want to make on behalf of any of the players or against any of the players.

Also this is the time to nominate any players I have not listed that were retired before 1985. If you do nominate a player please include a 2-4 sentence profile as I have done for other nominees. (I'll edit or add if need be)

Anyone who is not yet involved in the project may participate in this round as well, please check in within this thread or via PM to me and I'll add you too our roster.


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Players eligible for the first time

Nate Archibald - "Tiny" led the NBA in scoring and assists in 1973 and transformed himself into a pass-first point guard for the Celtics winning a title in 1981. Earned all-NBA honors in both roles; 22-2-9 over eight prime years.

Rick Barry - Best player on 1975 NBA Champions; helped lead 1967 Warriors to Finals as well. Could do everything on the court and is one of the best foul shooters ever. 27-7-5 over 12 prime seasons; 12x all-star, 9x all-league (8 1st team)

Sergei Belov - Member of 1968 Gold Medal winning USSR team. Considered to be one of the best non-American basketball players of all time. Became the first international player to be inducted into the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame

Kresmir Ćosić - He played in four Olympic Games: 1968, 1972, 1976, and 1980 in Moscow when he led his team to the gold medal. He previously led Yugoslavia to a pair of World Championship gold medals in 1970 and 1978.

Dave Cowens - 1973 MVP and centerpiece for both of Bostons titles in the 1970's. 3x all-NBA and all-defensive pick, 7x all-star; averaged 19-15-4 over eight prime seasons.

Bob Dandridge - Glue guy for 1971 Champion Bucks and 1978 Champion Bullets. Outstanding all-around player who could guard three positions and score the ball inside and out. 20-7-4-2 over ten prime seasons; 4x all-star, 5th in '79 MVP.

Walt Frazier - Premier point guard of the 1970's, Clyde was arguably the best ball hawk ever and played famously well during the 1970 and 1973 NBA Finals when the Knicks won the title; 7x all-star, 7x all-defensive first team, 6x all-NBA; 20-6-7-2 over ten prime seasons.

Elvin Hayes - High scoring forward with underrated defensive skills as a shot blocker and rebounder. The Big E helped led Washington to three finals and a Championship in 1978. 23-14-2-2 over 12 prime seasons; 6x all-NBA, 12x all-star.

Spencer Haywood - Burst onto the scene in the ABA and averaged 30 & 20 winning ROTY and MVP in 1970. 5x all-star and 4x all-NBA averaged 24-12-2-2 over six prime seasons.

Bob Lanier - The Dobber was a highly skilled big man who was overlooked playing on bad Piston teams in the 70's. Averaged 24-13-3-2 over nine prime seasons; 8x all-star, 3rd in 1974 MVP vote.

Pete Maravich - 5x all-star, 5x all-NBA selection won scoring title in 1977 and finished 3rd in MVP voting. Limited team success but brought creativity and flair unlike any player before or since.

George McGinnis - ABA Co-MVP in 1975 posted insane numbers; 30-15-6, made all-league first team in both leagues, 6x all-star, ABA Champion in '71 and '73, played in NBA Finals in '77.

Earl Monroe - Among the most influential players ever; unparalleled style and creativity. 1968 ROTY, 4x all-star, 1x all-NBA first team; peaked at 26-6-5; 21-4-5 over nine prime seasons. NBA Champ in '73

David Thompson - High scoring, high flying guard who starred in ABA as rookie and went on to multiple all-NBA selections before drugs ruined his career. 26-5-4-1 over five prime seasons.

Wes Unseld - Undersized pivot man won MVP and ROTY in 1969 then led Bullets to a decade straight of playoffs, four finals and Championship in 1978 as Finals MVP.

Paul Westphal - Best player on 1976 runner-up Suns would go on to be one of the best guards of the late seventies and early eighties. 3x all-NBA first team, 5x all-star; 23-2-6-2 over five prime seasons.

JoJo White - 1976 Finals MVP was lead guard for both Celtics Championship teams in the seventies; a two time all-NBA pick and a seven-time all-star averaging 20-5-6-1 in those seasons.


Players still eligible after receiving multiple votes in the previous classes

Lenny Wilkens
Neil Johnston
Leroy Edwards
Dave Bing
Gus Johnson
Gail Goodrich
Chet Walker
Cliff Hagan
Charles Cooper


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Player Elected Thus Far

Paul Arizin
Elgin Baylor (unanimous)
Wilt Chamberlain (unanimous)
Bob Cousy (unanimous)
Billy Cunningham
Mel Daniels
Bob Davies
Dave Debusschere
Joe Fulks
Hal Greer
John Havlicek (unanimous)
Connie Hawkins
Tom Heinsohn
Sam Jones (unanimous)
Jerry Lucas
Ed Macauley
Bobby McDermott
George Mikan (unanimous)
Bob Pettit (unanimous)
Willis Reed (unanimous)
Oscar Robertson (unanimous)
Bill Russell (unanimous)
Dolph Schayes
Bill Shaman
Maurice Stokes
Nate Thurmond
Jerry West (unanimous)



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Committee Members

G.O.A.T - 30's - Pistons/General
L. Kizzle - 20's - Rockets
Gotterdammerung - 30's - Rockets/General
MP.Trey - 20's - Cavs
WillC -
kshutts1 - 30's - Bulls/Lakers
dankok8 - Raptors
Fpliii - 20's - Lakers/Knicks
magnax1 - 20's - Jazz
JohnFreeman - 20's - Kings
gts -
hangintheair - 20's - Hornets
riseagainst -
SexSymbol - 20's - Lakers/Bobcats
nightprowler10 - 30's - Bulls
Jlip -
Smook A. -
longhornfan1234 - 20's - Spurs
bballnoob1192 - 20's - Lakers
Arbitrary Water -


Bold = Has Voted
Italics = Active


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Final Voting Results

11 ballots cast

(11) Rick Barry
(11) Clyde Frazier
(11) Westley Unseld
(10) Dave Cowens
(10) The Big E
(9) Tiny Archibald
(8) Pistol
(7) Pearl
(5) David Thompson
(3) Bob Lanier
(3) Neil Johnston
(3) Sergei Belov
(2) Gus Johnson
(2) Lenny Wilkens
(2) Dave Bing
(2) George McGinnis
(1) Bob Dandridge
(1) Spencer Haywood
(1) Paul Westphal
(1) Gail Goodrich




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[Gotterdammerung]

Holy. Fritjolies.
:lebronamazed:

Some worthy candidates are gonna be left off the ballot.

[MP.Trey]

Holy. Fritjolies.
:lebronamazed:

Some worthy candidates are gonna be left off the ballot.
Agreed. I'm too busy watch World Cup basketball right at this moment to give this too much thought right now, but this class has some unbelievable players.

[fpliii]

So admittedly there's a big hole in my knowledge after the greats from the 60s/early 70s retired, and before MJ/Bird/Magic took over. Just as with the first two threads, in not sure if I feel comfortable casting a ballot here. I'll try and read/watch as much as I can before the deadline though, hopefully I can put something together.

[L.Kizzle]

I'd like to nominate Calvin Murphy Rudy T and Charlie Scott.

[Gotterdammerung]

I'd like to nominate Calvin Murphy Rudy T and Charlie Scott.
On top of the loaded class?
http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/067/2/f/troll_face_animated_by_doublewoe7-d3b6n9j.gif

[L.Kizzle]

On top of the loaded class?
http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/067/2/f/troll_face_animated_by_doublewoe7-d3b6n9j.gif
Might as well fill the glass to the top. Scott has the highest ABA avg ever at over 34. That should put him on the ballot.

[MP.Trey]

Rick Barry - Amazing scorer and also a great creator for his teammates. Had one of the greatest regular season/postseasons combined in 75. One of, if not the greatest (and most trademark) FT shooters ever. Great in the NBA and ABA. 9x 1st teamer, 12x All-Star.
Dave Cowens - Heart and soul of the 70's Celtics. 73 MVP, 3x All-NBA and All-Defensive teams. Tremendous rebounder and a player every team would want.
Walt "Clyde" Frazier - One of the greatest all around guards the game has ever seen. His numbers don't exactly jump out to you but his play style, his accolades/achievements and overall impact on the court certainly did. Smooth scorer, good to great passer and undoubtedly great defender. Could be argued for 1, maybe 2 Finals MVP's and countless All-NBA/All-D team selections.
Elvin Hayes - I think he's overrated by most, a stat padder, and not the most loved teammate of all-time but I can't deny the impact he had and his overall talent level and accomplishments. 12x all-star, 6x all-NBA. Arguably best player on three finals teams and one championship team.
"Pistol" Pete Maravich - One of the most influential players in league history. Tremendous scorer and creative playmaker. 5x all-star, 5x all-NBA selection won scoring title in 1977 and finished 3rd in MVP voting.
Earl "The Pearl" Monroe - Another highly influential player, one of the most graceful guards in history. Put up great numbers in B'More then transformed his game a little in NY to cater himself to winning with Frazier, DeBusschere and co.
Wes Unseld - Undersized pivot man won MVP and ROTY in 1969 then led Bullets to a decade straight of playoffs, four finals and Championship in 1978 as Finals MVP. Great rebounder. Greatest Outlet pass of all-time. MVP, Finals MVP, His impact far exceeded the stat sheet.
Nate "Tiny" Archibald - Only player to lead league in both scoring and assists the same year. 6x All-Star, 5x All-NBA. Never won as the man but got a ring as a solid role player with the Celtics.
Sergei Belov - Best player, main scorer and main reason the USSR was able to beat USA and win the 1972 Gold Medal at the Olympics. 3x Bronze medal as big time impact player. 11x USSR league champion, 2x USSR Cup champion, 2x Euroleague champion. 2x World Cup champion 4x Eurobasket champion. Eurobasket MVP. Voted #1 on FIBA's top 50 player list made in 1991. I could go on and on.
Paul Westphal - Best player on 1976 runner-up Suns would go on to be one of the best guards of the late seventies and early eighties. 3x all-NBA first team, 5x all-star; 23-2-6-2 over five prime seasons. Real tough vote here, but Westphal was a fantastic player and playoff performer and gets the nod from me.

Great era for nicknames as well.

HM to Haywood, Thompson, Dandridge, Lanier, hell... everybody. The player caliber and notoriety is really picking up in recent rounds. Could change my vote(s) if I hear some compelling arguments.

[L.Kizzle]

Nate Archibald - Nate the Skate as he was known on the street of Harlem. Leading the league in scoring and assist in the same season. The one and only.

Rick Barry - Does anything need to be said ...

Sergei Belov - I know nothing about him.

Kresmir Ćosić - Same as above. I will research the two.

Dave Cowens - MVP and winner of two titles in the post Russell-pre Bird era.

Bob Dandridge - He could go in, just not in this class.

Walt Frazier - In the famous "Here come Willis" game, he put up 36 pts, 19 assist and 7 boards famously outplaying Jerry West. Gets overlooked, similar to Jamaal Wilkes 37 and 10 in Game 6 of the 80 Finals.

Elvin Hayes - Had an unstoppable turn-around jumper. Was the NBA's 2nd best power forward ever when he retired. He retired also 3rd all time in points scored behind Wilt and Kareem.

Spencer Haywood - Elite PF in the 1970s.

Bob Lanier - A guy built like Roy Hibbert, but no where near as clumsy ... even with the largest feet ever recorded in league history, size 22.

Pete Maravich - Style, style, style to go along with a great game. Great shooter. Won a few HORSE tournaments in the mid-70s beating the likes of George Gervin among others.

George McGinnis - Has an MVP in the ABA and two titles also in the ABA. He he wasn't just an ABA wonder, came into the NBA and was All-NBA 1st team right off the bat.

Earl Monroe - Great player who took a step back for the better of the team. Point was proven when the other Knicks started to go away (Reed, Lucas, Bradley, Barnett, DeBusschere and Frazier) he could still put up over 20 a night.

David Thompson - The prototype SG you all see today, it started with this man.

Wes Unseld - He has an MVP and a Finals MVP about ten seasons apart. He made his name in between those seasons. He's a poor man's Bill Russell. Best outlet passer All-Time.

Paul Westphal - See Bob Dandridge.

JoJo White - See Dandridge and Westphal.


Players still eligible after receiving multiple votes in the previous classes

Lenny Wilkens
Neil Johnston
Leroy Edwards
Dave Bing
Gus Johnson
Gail Goodrich
Chet Walker
Cliff Hagan
Charles Cooper


I've given up on the three players pre-NBA.

[Gotterdammerung]

Sweet. Fancy. Moses. Easily the most loaded class so far. Since it's insanely competitive i'll be more conservative than usual, comparing the candidates against their peers:

Nate Archibald
No doubt the prototypical ultraquick scoring point guard that made traditional ones like Frazier extinct. His MVP doesn't count, cuz he led the league in scoring and assists for a 36 win team that missed the playoffs. On 27 shots and 10 FT attempts a game. Only 7 quality seasons. Peaked early, lucked onto the powerful Celtics teams of the early 80s.
Second ballot HOF

Rick Barry
One of the top 5 or 6 best small forwards ever. A great scorer, led the league in 1966 with 36 ppg, quick and relentless on breakaway plays, deadly from anywhere on the court, both on the move or with his feet set. No matter the style of the game, Barry was unstoppable. A prototypical point-forward who finally led the Warriors to the title in 75. Sound, fundamental defense, had quick hands that preyed on clumsy dribbling or lousy passing.
HOF LOCK

Sergei Belov
Kresmir Ćosić
Never heard of them.
:durantunimpressed:

Dave Cowens
Ultracompetitive, undersized, athletic and durable center who brought out the best from KAJ in the 1974 finals. Clutch, had shooting range that drew out the league's dreadnaughts from the hoop. Got his MVP in a year people got tired of voting for KAJ, and tired of the overpaid players who didn't play 100% every time, when Cowens was playing with equal greats in Havlicek and Jo Jo White. The last player-coach in 1979. Streaky shot (44%) and always saddled with foul trouble.
Second Ballot

Bob Dandridge
Tricky, resilient, deadly from mid-range, and solid defender at the forward position. Undersized, though, a beneficiary of greater players.
Third Ballot

Walt Frazier
Led one of the greatest teams ever in the early 70s' Knicks. Strong, quick, and deadly from 18 to 20 feet, killed with a high-post game, also creative on the drive and finishing, slick and strong, and finally a dominant defender. Routinely stole from the best ball handlers, a clutch performer. Learned how to play the team game under Coach Holzman, and intelligent enough to sublimate his game for fame.
HOF LOCK

Elvin Hayes
The Karl Malone of the 70s. A gifted athelte that was exceedingly durable, productive. However, he was one of the most one-dimensional players ever - as well as one of the most unclutch. He was traded once in his prime.
Second Ballot

Spencer Haywood
Top 5 twice, top 10 twice, and a 5 year run of 24 ppg and 12 rpg, indeed. But he peaked way too soon, earned too much early, blew it all and was traded quickly often.
Third Ballot

Bob Lanier
Solid center that was cursed with a shitty franchise in the 70s. Nice, but deceptively tough guy.
Second Ballot

Pete Maravich
One of the greatest basketball players ever - probably more skilled with the ball than anyone else in history - but he was cursed. Bad teams, bad teammates, bad timing (played before the 3 point line), bad health (knee injury cut his career short), bad everything else.
Second Ballot

George McGinnis
422. Most turnovers in a single season.
:kobe:

Earl Monroe
One of the most dynamic scorers ever. Earl the Pearl Monroe sublimated the individual genius of street ball with the regimented structure of the NBA. He would come up with new stuff each game never seen before. But he arrived in the NBA with bad knees at an old 24. Scored heavily with Baltimore Bullets, led them to the 1971 Finals, but didn't win until he was traded to the Knicks in 1971. Top 10-15 SG ever.
HOF LOCK

David Thompson
Incredible athlete, scoring machine at 27 ppg and 52% FG for two years, but only played 9 years and had 5 quality years. Coke done him in too early.
Second Ballot

Wes Unseld
Excellent bulwark rebounder, great with outlet passing, screened like the Berlin Wall, never hogged the ball and only scored on put-backs.
Second Ballot

Paul Westphal
Played 12 seasons, 5 quality. Solid numbers across the board (21 ppg, 5 rpg, 3 apg).
Third Ballot

JoJo White
Playoff performer, great performer in the clutch for the mid-70s celtics.
Third Ballot

3 locks. 7 second ballot. :cheers:

ETA: bumped Haywood to third ballot.

[WillC]

Gotterdammerung, you've voted for 11 players there. Great choices though. Our selections will look very similar.

[JohnFreeman]

Rick Barry
Walt Frazier
Spencer Haywood
Earl Monroe
Wes Unseld

[WillC]

Nate Archibald - Putting up big numbers on the Kansas City Kings isn't enough for me to put him in the HOF, but he then changed his game to fit the Celtics offense and won a championship (similar career path to Earl Monroe), so that helps him scrape into my top 10. Incredibly skilled player with blistering speed.

Rick Barry - One of the most underrated players of all-time. People know about the free throw shooting but don't realise that he was also one of the most talented passers of his time. A lock.

Dave Cowens - Such a fun player to watch, his tenacity was something else. Outstanding team player and leader.

Walt Frazier - The 3rd or 4th best point guard of all-time, in my opinion.

Elvin Hayes - It's hard to argue with the numbers, despite questionable intangibles. He went from being overrated to underrated by casual fans.

Pete Maravich - One of the most significant players in basketball history. He had his critics - and earning so much money certainly didn't endear him to his teammates - but his passing and shooting ability were outrageously good. Exceptional college performances, albeit not for a poor team.

Earl Monroe - Somewhat similar to Maravich in terms of cultural impact, revolutionary skills and popularity. However, Monroe also had team success (wouldn't Maravich too if he had the luxury of playing on those teams?).

David Thompson - I had a tough time deciding between Thompson, McGinnis, Haywood and others, but Thompson's outstanding college career gives him the edge over the others.

Wes Unseld - A talented rebounder who could pass and score when needed, great team player, feared by opponents for his hard screens. You could argue that he was more valuable to his team than Hayes was.

Lenny Wilkens - Should have been voted in during the last round of voting.

[WillC]

Rick Barry
Walt Frazier
Spencer Haywood
Earl Monroe
Wes Unseld

What's the argument for Spencer Haywood over Elvin Hayes?

[JohnFreeman]

What's the argument for Spencer Haywood over Elvin Hayes?
ROTY and MVP

[WillC]

ROTY and MVP

...in the ABA.

The argument for Hayes over Haywood is very convincing indeed:

All-Star Games
Hayes: 12
Haywood: 5

All-League Team
Hayes: 3 x 1st Team, 3 x 2nd Team
Haywood: 3 x 1st Team (including ABA), 2 x 2nd Team

Points (regular season)
Hayes: 27,313
Haywood: 17,111

Rebounds (regular season)
Hayes: 16,279
Haywood: 8,675

Points (playoffs)
Hayes: 2,194
Haywood: 881 (only 441 in NBA)

Rebounds (playoffs)
Hayes: 1,244
Haywood: 425 (only 188 in NBA)

Not to mention Hayes was a much better defender.

[JohnFreeman]

You have changed my mind.

[kshutts1]

Nate Archibald - "Tiny" led the NBA in scoring and assists in 1973 and transformed himself into a pass-first point guard for the Celtics winning a title in 1981. Earned all-NBA honors in both roles; 22-2-9 over eight prime years.

Rick Barry- Best player on 1975 NBA Champions; helped lead 1967 Warriors to Finals as well. Could do everything on the court and is one of the best foul shooters ever. 27-7-5 over 12 prime seasons; 12x all-star, 9x all-league (8 1st team)

Sergei Belov - Member of 1968 Gold Medal winning USSR team. Considered to be one of the best non-American basketball players of all time. Became the first international player to be inducted into the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame

Kresmir Ćosić - He played in four Olympic Games: 1968, 1972, 1976, and 1980 in Moscow when he led his team to the gold medal. He previously led Yugoslavia to a pair of World Championship gold medals in 1970 and 1978.

Dave Cowens - 1973 MVP and centerpiece for both of Bostons titles in the 1970's. 3x all-NBA and all-defensive pick, 7x all-star; averaged 19-15-4 over eight prime seasons.

Bob Dandridge - Glue guy for 1971 Champion Bucks and 1978 Champion Bullets. Outstanding all-around player who could guard three positions and score the ball inside and out. 20-7-4-2 over ten prime seasons; 4x all-star, 5th in '79 MVP.

Walt Frazier - Premier point guard of the 1970's, Clyde was arguably the best ball hawk ever and played famously well during the 1970 and 1973 NBA Finals when the Knicks won the title; 7x all-star, 7x all-defensive first team, 6x all-NBA; 20-6-7-2 over ten prime seasons.

Elvin Hayes - High scoring forward with underrated defensive skills as a shot blocker and rebounder. The Big E helped led Washington to three finals and a Championship in 1978. 23-14-2-2 over 12 prime seasons; 6x all-NBA, 12x all-star.

Spencer Haywood - Burst onto the scene in the ABA and averaged 30 & 20 winning ROTY and MVP in 1970. 5x all-star and 4x all-NBA averaged 24-12-2-2 over six prime seasons.

Bob Lanier - The Dobber was a highly skilled big man who was overlooked playing on bad Piston teams in the 70's. Averaged 24-13-3-2 over nine prime seasons; 8x all-star, 3rd in 1974 MVP vote.

Pete Maravich - 5x all-star, 5x all-NBA selection won scoring title in 1977 and finished 3rd in MVP voting. Limited team success but brought creativity and flair unlike any player before or since.

George McGinnis - ABA Co-MVP in 1975 posted insane numbers; 30-15-6, made all-league first team in both leagues, 6x all-star, ABA Champion in '71 and '73, played in NBA Finals in '77.

Earl Monroe - Among the most influential players ever; unparalleled style and creativity. 1968 ROTY, 4x all-star, 1x all-NBA first team; peaked at 26-6-5; 21-4-5 over nine prime seasons. NBA Champ in '73

David Thompson - High scoring, high flying guard who starred in ABA as rookie and went on to multiple all-NBA selections before drugs ruined his career. 26-5-4-1 over five prime seasons.

Wes Unseld - Undersized pivot man won MVP and ROTY in 1969 then led Bullets to a decade straight of playoffs, four finals and Championship in 1978 as Finals MVP.

Paul Westphal - Best player on 1976 runner-up Suns would go on to be one of the best guards of the late seventies and early eighties. 3x all-NBA first team, 5x all-star; 23-2-6-2 over five prime seasons.

JoJo White - 1976 Finals MVP was lead guard for both Celtics Championship teams in the seventies; a two time all-NBA pick and a seven-time all-star averaging 20-5-6-1 in those seasons.


Players still eligible after receiving multiple votes in the previous classes

Lenny Wilkens
Neil Johnston
Leroy Edwards
Dave Bing
Gus Johnson
Gail Goodrich
Chet Walker
Cliff Hagan
Charles Cooper

Perhaps someone could talk me in to The Pearl, but he seems more well known for his style than for his game. I can't think of a good comparison right now, but maybe someone like.... Kyrie? Known for his sick handles, solid shot, fancy moves and being Uncle Drew.

As for Sergei Belov, from wiki.. "With CSKA, he won the USSR League championship eleven times (1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1976, 1977, 1978, 1979, 1980), the USSR Cup twice (1972, 1973), and the Euroleague twice, in 1969 and 1971." And, to top it off, he was the leading scorer in '70, '72, '74. So it's not like he was Robert Horry.

[G.O.A.T]

Sergi Belov (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hy-f3C7e_kU)

Worth it for the music alone.

[Gotterdammerung]

Gotterdammerung, you've voted for 11 players there. Great choices though. Our selections will look very similar.

Thanks. Edited to bump Haywood down a class.

Too much Rum & Coke. :cheers:

[dankok8]

Players eligible for the first time

Nate Archibald - "Tiny" led the NBA in scoring and assists in 1973 and transformed himself into a pass-first point guard for the Celtics winning a title in 1981. Earned all-NBA honors in both roles; 22-2-9 over eight prime years. His lack of longevity made me a bit uncertain but his peak is downright insane and he won a title as a major contributor.

Rick Barry - Best player on 1975 NBA Champions; helped lead 1967 Warriors to Finals as well. Could do everything on the court and is one of the best foul shooters ever. 27-7-5 over 12 prime seasons; 12x all-star, 9x all-league (8 1st team) Lock

Sergei Belov - Member of 1968 Gold Medal winning USSR team. Considered to be one of the best non-American basketball players of all time. Became the first international player to be inducted into the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame

Kresmir Ćosić - He played in four Olympic Games: 1968, 1972, 1976, and 1980 in Moscow when he led his team to the gold medal. He previously led Yugoslavia to a pair of World Championship gold medals in 1970 and 1978.

Dave Cowens - 1973 MVP and centerpiece for both of Bostons titles in the 1970's. 3x all-NBA and all-defensive pick, 7x all-star; averaged 19-15-4 over eight prime seasons. Lock.

Bob Dandridge - Glue guy for 1971 Champion Bucks and 1978 Champion Bullets. Outstanding all-around player who could guard three positions and score the ball inside and out. 20-7-4-2 over ten prime seasons; 4x all-star, 5th in '79 MVP.

Walt Frazier - Premier point guard of the 1970's, Clyde was arguably the best ball hawk ever and played famously well during the 1970 and 1973 NBA Finals when the Knicks won the title; 7x all-star, 7x all-defensive first team, 6x all-NBA; 20-6-7-2 over ten prime seasons. Lock.

Elvin Hayes - High scoring forward with underrated defensive skills as a shot blocker and rebounder. The Big E helped led Washington to three finals and a Championship in 1978. 23-14-2-2 over 12 prime seasons; 6x all-NBA, 12x all-star. Lock.

Spencer Haywood - Burst onto the scene in the ABA and averaged 30 & 20 winning ROTY and MVP in 1970. 5x all-star and 4x all-NBA averaged 24-12-2-2 over six prime seasons.

Bob Lanier - The Dobber was a highly skilled big man who was overlooked playing on bad Piston teams in the 70's. Averaged 24-13-3-2 over nine prime seasons; 8x all-star, 3rd in 1974 MVP vote. Remarkably consistent over an entire decade in Detroit. Those Pistons weren't really bad teams but the competition was vicious.

Pete Maravich - 5x all-star, 5x all-NBA selection won scoring title in 1977 and finished 3rd in MVP voting. Limited team success but brought creativity and flair unlike any player before or since. Not an easy choice.

George McGinnis - ABA Co-MVP in 1975 posted insane numbers; 30-15-6, made all-league first team in both leagues, 6x all-star, ABA Champion in '71 and '73, played in NBA Finals in '77.

Earl Monroe - Among the most influential players ever; unparalleled style and creativity. 1968 ROTY, 4x all-star, 1x all-NBA first team; peaked at 26-6-5; 21-4-5 over nine prime seasons. NBA Champ in '73 The only reason he didn't make more all-star teams is the Knicks' triangle/equal opportunity offense. Not a slam dunk but not a hard choice either.

David Thompson - High scoring, high flying guard who starred in ABA as rookie and went on to multiple all-NBA selections before drugs ruined his career. 26-5-4-1 over five prime seasons.

Wes Unseld - Undersized pivot man won MVP and ROTY in 1969 then led Bullets to a decade straight of playoffs, four finals and Championship in 1978 as Finals MVP. Unlike most people Wes wasn't an easy choice for me. He didn't deserve his MVP in 1969 and probably not the Finals MVP in 1978 either. Looking at the accolades overrated him although he did everything other than scoring very wall. Beastly rebounder and defender, set bone-crunching screens, and great teammate who always made his teams better.

Paul Westphal - Best player on 1976 runner-up Suns would go on to be one of the best guards of the late seventies and early eighties. 3x all-NBA first team, 5x all-star; 23-2-6-2 over five prime seasons.

JoJo White - 1976 Finals MVP was lead guard for both Celtics Championship teams in the seventies; a two time all-NBA pick and a seven-time all-star averaging 20-5-6-1 in those seasons.


Players still eligible after receiving multiple votes in the previous classes

Lenny Wilkens
Neil Johnston
Leroy Edwards
Dave Bing
Gus Johnson
Gail Goodrich
Chet Walker
Cliff Hagan
Charles Cooper

[fpliii]

Locks:
Barry
Cowens
Frazier
Hayes

Archibald - 73 was the only great offense he anchored. Not a believer, I don't think his impact was as big as his box score numbers suggest. (improbable candidate)

Belov & Cosic - So on RealGM, we put together a list of the best players not in the NBA each year:


1946-47 - Bob Kurland or George Mikan
1947-48 - Bob Kurland or George Mikan
1948-49 - Alex Groza or Bob Kurland
1949-50 - Bob Kurland
1950-51 - Bob Kurland
1951-52 - Alex Groza or Bob Kurland
1952-53 - Armenak Alachachan or Alex Groza
1953-54 - Armenak Alachachan or Alex Groza
1954-55 - Armenak Alachachan or Janis Krumins or Bill Russell
1955-56 - Armenak Alachachan or Ivo Daneu or Janis Krumins or Bill Russell
1956-57 - Armenak Alachachan or Wilt Chamberlain or Ivo Daneu or Janis Krumins
1957-58 - Armenak Alachachan or Wilt Chamberlain or Ivo Daneu or Janis Krumins or Oscar Robertson
1958-59 - Armenak Alachachan or Wilt Chamberlain or Ivo Daneu or Janis Krumins or Oscar Robertson
1959-60 - Armenak Alachachan or Ivo Daneu or Janis Krumins or Oscar Robertson
1960-61 - Armenak Alachachan or Ivo Daneu or Connie Hawkins or Janis Krumins or Jerry Lucas
1961-62 - Armenak Alachachan or Ivo Daneu or Connie Hawkins or Janis Krumins or Jerry Lucas or Earl Manigault
1962-63 - Armenak Alachachan or Ivo Daneu or Connie Hawkins or Janis Krumins or Jerry Lucas or Earl Manigault
1963-64 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar or Armenak Alachachan or Ivo Daneu or Connie Hawkins or Earl Manigault
1964-65 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar or Armenak Alachachan or Ivo Daneu or Connie Hawkins or Earl Manigault
1965-66 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar or Miles Aiken or Armenak Alachachan or Ivo Daneu or Connie Hawkins or Earl Manigault
1966-67 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar or Miles Aiken or Armenak Alachachan or Ivo Daneu or Connie Hawkins or Earl Manigault
1967-68 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar or Miles Aiken or Armenak Alachachan or Ivo Daneu or Connie Hawkins or Earl Manigault
1968-69 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar or Miles Aiken or Ivo Daneu or Sergey Belov or Connie Hawkins or Earl Manigault
1969-70 - Miles Aiken or Sergey Belov or Ivo Daneu or Mel Daniels or Spencer Haywood or Earl Manigault
1970-71 - Zelmo Beaty or Sergey Belov or Mel Daniels or Earl Manigault
1971-72 - Sergey Belov or Julius Erving or Artis Gilmore or Earl Manigault or Bob Morse or Bill Walton
1972-73 - Sergey Belov or Julius Erving or Artis Gilmore or Earl Manigault or Bob Morse or Bill Walton
1973-74 - Wilt Chamberlain or Julius Erving or Earl Manigault or Bob Morse or Bill Walton
1974-75 - Julius Erving or Earl Manigault or Bob Morse or David Thompson
1975-76 - Drazen Dalipagic or Julius Erving or Earl Manigault or Bob Morse
1976-77 - Larry Bird or Drazen Dalipagic or Earl Manigault or Bob Morse
1977-78 - Larry Bird or Kresmir Cosic or Drazen Dalipagic or Mirza Delibasic or Bob Morse
1978-79 - Larry Bird or Drazen Dalipagic or Mirza Delibasic or Fernando Martin or Bob Morse or Vladimir Thachenko
1979-80 - Kresmir Cosic or Drazen Dalipagic or Mirza Delibasic or Darrell Griffith or Fernando Martin or Bob Morse
1980-81 - Mirza Delibasic or Fernando Martin or Ralph Sampson or Gus Williams
1981-82 - Mirza Delibasic or Fernando Martin or Ralph Sampson
1982-83 - Fernando Martin or Dino Meneghin or Ralph Sampson
1983-84 - Michael Jordan or Fernando Martin or Arvydas Sabonis or Oscar Schmidt
1984-85 - Fernando Martin or Drazen Petrovic or Arvydas Sabonis or Oscar Schmidt
1985-86 - Nikos Galis or Fernando Martin or Drazen Petrovic or David Robinson or Arvydas Sabonis or Oscar Schmidt
1986-87 - Nikos Galis or Drazen Petrovic or David Robinson or Oscar Schmidt
1987-88 - Nikos Galis or Fernando Martin or David Robinson or Arvydas Sabonis or Oscar Schmidt
1988-89 - Nikos Galis or Fernando Martin or Drazen Petrovic or Oscar Schmidt
1989-90 - Nikos Galis or Toni Kukoc or Oscar Schmidt
1990-91 - Nikos Galis or Toni Kukoc or Shaquille O'Neal or Oscar Schmidt
1991-92 - Toni Kukoc or Magic Johnson or Shaquille O'Neal or Oscar Schmidt
1992-93 - Toni Kukoc
1993-94 - Michael Jordan or Arvydas Sabonis
1994-95 - Arvydas Sabonis
1995-96 - Tim Duncan or Dominique Wilkins
1996-97 - Tim Duncan
1997-98 - Andrei Kirilenko
1998-99 - Elton Brand or Tyus Edney or Michael Jordan or Andrei Kirilenko
1999-00 - Pau Gasol or Michael Jordan or Andrei Kirilenko
2000-01 - Pau Gasol or Manu Ginobili or Michael Jordan or Andrei Kirilenko
2001-02 - Dejan Bodiroga or Yao Ming
2002-03 - Carmelo Anthony or Dejan Bodiroga or LeBron James or Dwyane Wade
2003-04 - Juan Carlos Navarro or Emeka Okafor
2004-05 - Dimitris Diamantidis or Juan Carlos Navarro or Theodoros Papaloukas or Luis Scola
2005-06 - Dimitris Diamantidis or Juan Carlos Navarro or Theodoros Papaloukas or Luis Scola
2006-07 - Dimitris Diamantidis or Kevin Durant or Greg Oden or Theodoros Papaloukas or Luis Scola
2007-08 - Dimitris Diamantidis or Kevin Love or Theodoros Papaloukas or Derrick Rose
2008-09 - Dimitris Diamantidis or Erazem Lorbek or Juan Carlos Navarro or Theodoros Papaloukas or Tiago Splitter
2009-10 - Dimitris Diamantidis or Erazem Lorbek or Juan Carlos Navarro or Tiago Splitter
2010-11 - Dimitris Diamantidis or Kyrie Irving or Erazem Lorbek or Nikola Mirotic or Juan Carlos Navarro or Ricky Rubio or Vassilis Spanoulis
2011-12 - Anthony Davis or Andrei Kirilenko or Erazem Lorbek or Nikola Mirotic or Juan Carlos Navarro or Vassilis Spanoulis
2012-13 - Nikola Mirotic or Juan Carlos Navarro or Vassilis Spanoulis
2013-14

Belov was mentioned as a possibility 5 years in a row (68-69 through 72-73), Cosic twice (77-78 and 79-80). I'm inclined to consider Belov here, and pass on Cosic, though admittedly I don't enough about either. (Belov warrants consideration, Cosic unlikely candidate)

Dandridge - Very good supporting player, rose his game in the playoffs. I don't know how much he stacks up against the rest of this class though. If we can consider him an impact defender, I might be inclined to consider him here. (unlikely candidate)

Haywood - Posted crazy numbers in the ABA, though during its formative years (I addressed my concerns about taking early ABA seasons at face value last thread). Led below-average offenses in Seattle, and doesn't seem like he was a legitimate defensive anchor. (unlikely candidate)

Lanier - I'm somewhat convinced he's one of the most underrated post scorers in league history. Not a great defender, except for the year after he worked with Russell for the summer on that end (73-74). Don't know if I can pick him here, but I'm happy that two people have voted for him so far, so he'll remain on the ballot. (warrants consideration)

Maravich - Tremendously skilled, but he played for some very, very bad offenses in the prime of his career. Given the Jazz were an expansion team, so I don't want to hold this against him too much. (warrants consideration)

McGinnis - I haven't watched him that much, but I do think from watching the 77 Finals that he might've held Philly back from winning the title that year. Turned the ball over a ton, not a very efficient scorer. Probably should've shot a lot less than he did. Fell off a bit in the NBA, though there were a lot of scorers on that Sixers team. (unlikely candidate)

Monroe - Monster player, he probably should be a lock, but it's al loaded class. Thrived as the man and in a team setting. (warrants consideration)

Thompson - Great, great player. Shame what happened. Without him, we might not have MJ. Short career, not sure if he dominated enough to make it in with this class. (improbable candidate)

Unseld - Tremendous intangibles, great outlet passer, man defender in the post, and pick setter. Played for some amazing defenses, but Hayes probably had a lot to do with them as well. (warrants consideration)

Westphal - Some nice numbers, but I'm not sure that he was much of a defensive player (since that's what made those Suns teams so successful), and he didn't play for great offenses. (unlikely candidate)

White - I don't know if we can justify selecting him in a class this loaded. I'll see if I can watch more of him, maybe I'll change my mind. (improbable candidate)

Gun to my head, in addition to the top four, I'd throw in Belov, Monroe, and Unseld. I'm still not sure about Archibald, Lanier, Maravich, Thompson, and White.

Also, still sticking with Gus Johnson here.

[L.Kizzle]

Earl Manigualts name is on that list from 1961 to 1977. That's very impressive.

[fpliii]

Earl Manigualts name is on that list from 1961 to 1977. That's very impressive.
Evidently the summer before Kareem went to UCLA, they played on the same team at the Rucker:
[QUOTE]But the summer after senior year was really a treat because I could finally play in the Rucker Tournament. With no high school restrictions and not yet officially enrolled in college, I signed up and matched up against the legends. Had to see what I could do.

Just to be safe I played under an assumed name, as if they didn

[L.Kizzle]

Evidently the summer before Kareem went to UCLA, they played on the same team at the Rucker:

and they ended up going against the Pearl's squad. Must've been an incredibly game to watch.
Kareem said he's the greatest player he ever played against. I think his Power Memorial Squad lost to Ben Franklin High.

[Rizko]

I would like to refer any interested parties to read my post in GOATS other thread. It is a "too long didn't read" bible passage lengthed post lol but the jist is essentially a nba players draft.

Im thinking a current peak form NBA player draft and an alltime peak nba player draft.

Please pm if your interested. I want to generate a little interest and then start a thread when we get some people together where we can hash out the finer details and set up the draft order.

[kshutts1]

@fpliii

In regards to that "best player" listing from RGM, I'm wondering what influence hindsight had on the list.

I see that Kukoc was listed in the two years leading up to his being a very good NBA player, and a few other similar instances.

And to anyone that's unsure about Sergi Belov, I hope you read my prior post... dude won something like 10-11 championships (I didn't count) in what appeared to be, at quick glance, a 13 year span. Remind you of anyone? And, for good measure, he was a top scorer or MVP for 3-4 of them over a 7 (or so) championship stretch, which tells me that he was arguably the best player on the championship team for at least 7 of them.

[magnax1]

Definite yes's-

Nate Archibald
Rick Barry
Dave Cowens
Wes Unseld
Walt Frazier
Elvin Hayes

Can't decide which four to choose tier-
Spencer Haywood
Bob Lanier
Earl Monroe
Pete Maravich
Neil Johnston
Gail Goodrich
George McGinnis
David Thompson

McGinnis I feel pretty confident in even if he's maybe not the popular choice. He did after all, win an MVP. Thompson I kind of want to put in on the principle that I think he was an elite player. Maravich probably deserves it, but honestly I don't think he's all that great. Haywood had 2, maybe 3 great seasons, then fell off the map. There are guys I think deserve it more probably.
The last spot is either Thompson or Goodrich. They were both 5 time all stars. Goodrich's career was longer but there are a few years where he doesn't do much. I don't really know which is worth the spot to be honest but I chose Thompson.


I don't know who they are tier-
Sergei Belov
Kresmir Ćosić

[fpliii]

@fpliii

In regards to that "best player" listing from RGM, I'm wondering what influence hindsight had on the list.

I see that Kukoc was listed in the two years leading up to his being a very good NBA player, and a few other similar instances.

And to anyone that's unsure about Sergi Belov, I hope you read my prior post... dude won something like 10-11 championships (I didn't count) in what appeared to be, at quick glance, a 13 year span. Remind you of anyone? And, for good measure, he was a top scorer or MVP for 3-4 of them over a 7 (or so) championship stretch, which tells me that he was arguably the best player on the championship team for at least 7 of them.
It is a big part of it for sure. Though I do think when outing the list together posters did try and take reputations at the time into account as well, it's impossible to completely remove retrospective bias.

The championships are impressive, but it's tough when I don't know enough about how good that league was at the time. Coupled with the perhaps best player reputation outside the league though, I think it's enough to warrant my vote here.

[G.O.A.T]

Nate Archibald - He'll get in and should. We all know about the amazing '73 season, and that those King teams overall were not very good, those years alone make him a viable candidate. But what impresses me most about him is how he was able to play such a vital role on the early 80's Celtics well past his physical prime. He was still a top 8 guard for 2-3 years there on skill and guts alone.

Rick Barry - Lock, top 30 all-time.

Sergei Belov - This guy should be in. I have a lot to learn about international basketball pre-1980, but I can say for sure that of anyone born after 1930 outside of the United States that never played in the NBA, this is the guy that I most believe belongs. Not going to vote for him this round as it does not look like he will make it yet and always has ebough votes to make him a lock on the next ballot.

Dave Cowens - Another lock. Probably the guy who fared the best against Kareem between Wilt and Walton. Top 40 all-time.

Bob Dandridge - Dandridge needs to in. Won't make it this round understandably, but lets get him one more vote and keep him around. He is the Heinsohn/Greer/Worthy/McHale of his day. Constantly on the contending teams and doing underrated things that were essential to winning.

Walt Frazier - Lock. Top 40 all-time.

Elvin Hayes - Like a few others have said, like him or not, Lock.

Bob Lanier - I want to vote for him. But I did pass on Bing last time around. Have to be consistent. No for now.

Pete Maravich - Not going to vote for him, but he should be in. I just think he's not one of the top ten most deserving on this list, plus he is already going to get enough support to stick around for sure, and probably to get in.

George McGinnis - Saw Magnax vote for him, going to give a second to keep him on the ballot. Might not make the cut, but is surely worth more consideration than just one round.

Earl Monroe - Torn on this one too. Gonna pass for now as he has enough support to stay.

David Thompson - Should have been in, but self inflicted career killing did him in.

Wes Unseld - Lock. As you'll see in GOATLIST14, I've moved Wes down from where I long had him in my all-time rankings. He is a very hard player to rank as he was a true alpha player in terms of the respect he commanded and the success his teams had, but he rarely had an alpha impact (in terms of tangibles) after his first few seasons. He is a very poor mans Tim Duncan. It's as if 2014 Duncan were a prime Wes Unseld in terms of impact.

JoJo White - Just can't, but he's a true borderline guy for me as far as this project goes.

Lenny Wilkens - Almost got in last round, getting caught up in the depth this round, keep him around.

Leroy Edwards - Time to let him go, he's a lock for Pioneer/Legends round. Same with Cooper.

Dave Bing - Going to give him a vote to keep him on the ballot for the next class.

Gus Johnson - Want to, out of votes.
Gail Goodrich - want to out of votes.
Cliff Hagan - want to, out of votes.

[gts]

too many good ones this time around

Rick Barry
Pete Maravich
Gail Goodrich
Walt Frazier
Elvin Hayes
Bob Lanier
David Thompson
Nate Archibald
Wes Unseld
Dave Cowens

[G.O.A.T]

Last day for voting or new additions.

Going to close this thread and move into 1990 tonight.

The project just keeps getting better as I feel like our last few classes have shown great consistency.

[gts]

Last day for voting or new additions.

Going to close this thread and move into 1990 tonight.

The project just keeps getting better as I feel like our last few classes have shown great consistency.

getting into the more recognizable players and we the voters have probably sorted out what we think is a worthy candidate


it would be nice in one of these rounds to go back and do a supplemental type round where we can re-nominate some of the guys that barely missed.. some of those guys from yesteryear won't stand a chance now that we're into the 90's and later... ( as we saw in the 85 round) is that something we could do?

[G.O.A.T]

getting into the more recognizable players and we the voters have probably sorted out what we think is a worthy candidate


it would be nice in one of these rounds to go back and do a supplemental type round where we can re-nominate some of the guys that barely missed.. some of those guys from yesteryear won't stand a chance now that we're into the 90's and later... ( as we saw in the 85 round) is that something we could do?

I think so.

I had always planned to do an honorable mention round for each class. Where we can vote in players to a separate, lower tier. That Would allow us to add players who we feel fill in the cracks.

But I think one extra catch-all round for all players who received at least two votes in at least two rounds (or something along those lines) would be a good idea.

[G.O.A.T]

Final Voting Results

11 ballots cast

(11) Rick Barry
(11) Clyde Frazier
(11) Westley Unseld
(10) Dave Cowens
(10) The Big E
(9) Tiny Archibald
(8) Pistol
(7) Pearl
------------------------------
(5) David Thompson
(3) Bob Lanier
(3) Neil Johnston
(3) Sergei Belov
(2) Gus Johnson
(2) Lenny Wilkens
(2) Dave Bing
(2) George McGinnis
(1) Bob Dandridge
(1) Spencer Haywood
(1) Paul Westphal
(1) Gail Goodrich