Kobe and Shaq: What Should have been

[G.O.A.T]

just finished Phil Jackson's "eleven rings" and he talks, as he has in the previous books, about the destruction of Kobe and Shaq's relationship and how Kobe forced Shaq and Phil out of town in 2004.

So because what-ifs are fun when you don't use them ti rank players...I decided to ask what would happen if Kobe and Shaq got along as good as say Duncan and Parker, or at least Kareem and Magic and they stayed together through the 2011 season. How many titles would they have won...?

Obviously you can't add Odom to the Lakers because the Shaq trade never happens. Keep every other NBA transaction and injury (not involving Shaq) the same, except the Lakers have to give up Bynum and Marc Gasol to add Pau Gasol in 2008.

Here's my best guess from talking about it with a friend while watching the Michigan game today.

1999 Spurs
2000 Lakers
2001 Lakers
2002 Lakers
2003 Spurs -
2004 Lakers - Malone and Payton get their rings and retire.
2005 Spurs - A rebuilding year of sorts, but they still go to the WCF losing to Spurs in seven.
2006 Lakers - Kobe wins his first title as an Alpha, Shaq says Kobe is the best player in the world and actually means it and is right.
2007 Spurs - Shaq's injuries and a lack of depth cost the Lakers HCA, Spurs beat them in six.
2008 Lakers - Gasol trade elevates Lakers above Spurs and Celtics
2009 Lakers - Shaq fills the Bynum role and then some.
2010 Lakers - See above
2011 Mavericks

Eight Rings, four with each as Alpha. Shaq wins MVP in 2004 and 2005, Kobe in 2006, 2007 and 2008, three MVP's each. They surpass Magic and Kareem as best duo of all-time and both rank in the top four all-time along with MJ and Russell.

[AnaheimLakers24]

cool but they only won 5

[ZeN]

Even if Kobe and Shaq would would have gotten along it doesn't mean the on court chemistry would have been automatically better. There's a lot of great players that have gotten along in the past that couldn't maximize their efforts on the court.

It's nice to think what if but it's not just about them two not getting along. Shaq has always had conditioning and additude issues. He has badmouth former teammates every time he he's left a team. He even made Nash turn against him when he stole his sports show idea. He ragged on both Kobe and Wade after having called them the best players in the planet. He screamed at the owner Buss during a game hollering Pay Me! It's character issues that go beyond just not getting along with Kobe.

Kobe also has a plethora of character issues that have been well documented. He's a social recluse unless it comes to basketball. He has infinite belief in himself which makes him think he's always working for the betterment of the team. He leads by bullying like MJ. Like Shaq he's egotistical. So these and many other character issues won't just go away.


All of this doesn't even include injuries and unforseen occurrences that would have happened if they had stayed together.

[G.O.A.T]

^ Folks here struggling with the concept of a "what-if" I see...

[ZeN]

Also Gasol trade never happens since it an absolute direct result of Shaq being traded. They got Kwame with Shaq trade pieces.

[ZeN]

^ Folks here struggling with the concept of a "what-if" I see...
What are children? Playing what if means taking reality under account. If not it's just straight up fantasy.

[G.O.A.T]

Read Jackson's book and then the hypothetical I asked will make sense to you.

Otherwise go find someone else you don't know and tell them why they are wrong about something frivolous.

[LAZERUSS]

To be honest, it was Jackson, himself, who caused much of the rift between Shaq and Kobe.

I find it fascinating that Jerry West was able to mediate between the two, but the Lakers pretty much blew apart after he left.

[TheMarkMadsen]

I like how in Jackson's 2004 book at a time Kobe was hated by the media that "Kobe forced Phil out"

Then in Jacksons 2010 book at a time when Kobe was winning rings and liked by the media "Kobes the only reason I came back"

Okayyy Phil..

Anyways, I think Shaqs ego wouldn't be able to handle being the 3rd fiddle on a Kobe led team.

And I think Kobes determination to win rings w/o Shaq led to him maturing as a player and put a huge chip on his shoulder that propelled him to become who he eventually became as a player.

Hypotheticals with this situation are weird, because so much of what happened on the court good or bad directly correlates with what was happening off the court.

[LAZERUSS]

I like how in Jackson's 2004 book at a time Kobe was hated by the media that "Kobe forced Phil out"

Then in Jacksons 2010 book at a time when Kobe was winning rings and liked by the media "Kobes the only reason I came back"

Okayyy Phil..

Anyways, I think Shaqs ego wouldn't be able to handle being the 3rd fiddle on a Kobe led team.

And I think Kobes determination to win rings w/o Shaq led to him maturing as a player and put a huge chip on his shoulder that propelled him to become who he eventually became as a player.

Hypotheticals with this situation are weird, because so much of what happened on the court good or bad directly correlates with what was happening off the court.

:applause:

[ZeN]

Read Jackson's book and then the hypothetical I asked will make sense to you.

Otherwise go find someone else you don't know and tell them why they are wrong about something frivolous.
I've read all of Jacksons books. Sorry I hurt your feelings.. Lol

[LAZERUSS]

And why does no one blame Jackson for his '04 Finals loss? He was horribly outcoached by Brown in that series. Furthermore, he would rip Kobe for shot-jacking, and then let him continue to do so.

IMHO, he INSTIGATED much of the problem.

[gts]

you have to take everything Jackson says with a grain of salt. I think he's one of the greatest coaches ever, maybe the greatest but after that I don't put much stock in what Phil says in his books or the media when it comes to his analysis of the personalities around him.. Just a bunch of self serving BS that changes when the wind blows

[fpliii]

I'm not quite sure. Just a note though...

So we have Phil's account, Shaq's account, a bit of West's account from their books. I haven't read it yet, but from my understanding Lazenby's "The Show" touches on the ensemble. Tex's book from I believe 06 even gave his side.

But until Kobe releases a book (which he may not), or we get something like Lazenby's latest MJ book, we're not going to get his side of the story in its entirety.

[G.O.A.T]

The point, which is clearly lost now, is to imagine what would happen if they were exactly the same as basketball players, but got along personally and did whatever it took to win on the court. Shaq's still lazy, Kobe is still a perfectionist, but when the ball goes up, they just want to win.

This isn't a what if they don't trade Shaq thread.

It's a what if the problems that caused them to trade Shaq didn't exist.

Likewise it's not a who's fault is thread.

That doesn't matter because in the pretend world I invented for you guys, they got along and played together to the best of their abilities.

I also explained that all other NBA transactions not involving Shaq happen exactly the same way, with one exception, the Gasol deal.

I understand it's not a totally realistic scenario, but I'm not looking for dissertations or hypothesis. Just to extend an enjoyable real life conversation between basketball fans to other basketball fans here on the internet.

Wow.

[G.O.A.T]

you have to take everything Jackson says with a grain of salt. I think he's one of the greatest coaches ever, maybe the greatest but after that I don't put much stock in what Phil says in his books or the media when it comes to his analysis of the personalities around him.. Just a bunch of self serving BS that changes when the wind blows

Certainly not the point, but I disagree. I find him to be very consistent throughout all his books. I've own and have read them all, now he certainly has a bias towards himself and his teams, but it's easy to detect and when the books are written from his perspective, I think it's unavoidable and prefer transparency like he offers.

I think he understands how people are constantly changing based on the stimuli around them, but he seems pretty good at picking out everyone's constant traits and using that to build relationships that foster a winning environment.

Is anyone going to try the hypothetical?

[HOoopCityJones]

The point, which is clearly lost now, is to imagine what would happen if they were exactly the same as basketball players, but got along personally and did whatever it took to win on the court.

This isn't a what if they don't trade Shaq thread.

It's a what if the problems that caused them to trade Shaq didn't exist.

Likewise it's not a who's fault is thread.

That doesn't matter because in the pretend world I invented for you guys, they got along and played together to the best of their abilities.

I also explained that all other NBA transactions not involving Shaq happen exactly the same way, with one exception, the Gasol deal.

I understand it's not a totally realistic scenario, but I'm not looking for dissertations or hypothesis. Just to extend an enjoyable real life conversation between basketball fans to other basketball fans here on the internet.

Wow.


Once you suggested both would be higher all time if it all worked out, that's when people got uncomfortable. ISH hates to acknowledge Kobe's greatness, and running Shaq outta town and being the other half of what poisoned their dynasty is too big of a chunk of their argument in discrediting Kobe for them to consider otherwise.

[ZeN]

Throughout all the interchangeable stimuli that both Shaq and Kobe has experienced.. None it of it has changed them..lol..they are still huge assholes.

[G.O.A.T]

Once you suggested both would be higher all time if it all worked out, that's when people got uncomfortable. ISH hates to acknowledge Kobe's greatness, and running Shaq outta town and being the other half of what poisoned their dynasty is too big of a chunk of their argument in discrediting Kobe for them to consider otherwise.

I really hope that's not it. But since you seem secure enough not to be offended by this...will you play my stupid game HOoopCityJones?

[KobesFinger]

How do we get Bynum in the first place if Shaq stays?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Regarding the OP, in a perfect world, with Shaq and Kobe meshing ie.the 2000-2002 playoffs (notice I didn't mention the regular season?), it wouldn't surprise me one bit if they rattled off another 2-3 more chips.

2004 - I think with a stable trio (Shaq/Kobe/PJax), LA could overcome the vaunted Detroit defense and right the wrong that was the 2004 Finals.

2005 - Still believe they'd lose to SA, but it would be a hell of a series. This was Shaq's last season in his prime.

2006 - Peak Kobe and productive Shaq is good enough to stave off the competition that season.

2007 & 2008 - Same thing above circa 2006, peak Kobe and productive Shaq; however, Gasol (assuming he is still with Memphis; the only reason he got traded to LA was because of Shaq's departure), by then, was the better player, imo.

[G.O.A.T]

How do we get Bynum in the first place if Shaq stays?

Every other team passes on him because of injury and immaturity concerns.

[LAZERUSS]

Well, they didn't win in '04 mostly because of talent levels, and partly because of poor coaching.

The '05 Lakers would have been competitive, but they would have had even less surrounding talent their '04 team, so that is unlikely.

'06 would have been interesting, a healthy Shaq, which again was a question by that point, was still an elite player. And Kobe was at his peak. Possibly a title here.

After that, we just don't know.

Shaq was on the decline, so I doubt they come close in '07.

Th rest would be pure speculation. Do they both Gasol and Shaq in '08? I think they likely would have won.

And no matter what Shaq would have given them in '09 and '10, they also likely would have won.

Possibly two more rings.

[HOoopCityJones]

I really hope that's not it. But since you seem secure enough not to be offended by this...will you play my stupid game HOoopCityJones?

I think we still would've went through that downtime from 05-07, not necessarily as bad as it was with a Kwame & Smush Parker, but similar to what the Spurs went through before Timmy's resurgence and getting Kawhi.

Playoff Limbo basically, making it every year but not going very far. Until we got that new solid second option in Gasol to take the load off of Shaq, however I think we win in 04 if the Shaq and Kobe relationship wasn't as bad as it really was.

So, 04 & maybe 06--mini drought--08, 09 & 10.

I think our run comes to an end in 2011. Whether it's losing to the Mavs or The Heat. Kobe was pretty banged up by the end of our 2peat run, Shaq would of been flatout done by this time and as we've seen the last few years , relying on Gasol as your first option leads to mediocre results.

[ZeN]

Every other team passes on him because of injury and immaturity concerns.
Illogical and impossible

[Stringer Bell]

I thought the 2004 Pistons were just too deep and played better as a team. Even if Kobe and Shaq were getting along better on and off the court. Malone's body broke down and he provided good interior defense, rebounds, passing, etc....Payton had declined and never learned to effectively use the triangle offense.

Sort of like the Spurs-Heat in 2014, one team was just deeper in talent and functioned so well as a unit.

[bizil]

just finished Phil Jackson's "eleven rings" and he talks, as he has in the previous books, about the destruction of Kobe and Shaq's relationship and how Kobe forced Shaq and Phil out of town in 2004.

So because what-ifs are fun when you don't use them ti rank players...I decided to ask what would happen if Kobe and Shaq got along as good as say Duncan and Parker, or at least Kareem and Magic and they stayed together through the 2011 season. How many titles would they have won...?

Obviously you can't add Odom to the Lakers because the Shaq trade never happens. Keep every other NBA transaction and injury (not involving Shaq) the same, except the Lakers have to give up Bynum and Marc Gasol to add Pau Gasol in 2008.

Here's my best guess from talking about it with a friend while watching the Michigan game today.

1999 Spurs
2000 Lakers
2001 Lakers
2002 Lakers
2003 Spurs -
2004 Lakers - Malone and Payton get their rings and retire.
2005 Spurs - A rebuilding year of sorts, but they still go to the WCF losing to Spurs in seven.
2006 Lakers - Kobe wins his first title as an Alpha, Shaq says Kobe is the best player in the world and actually means it and is right.
2007 Spurs - Shaq's injuries and a lack of depth cost the Lakers HCA, Spurs beat them in six.
2008 Lakers - Gasol trade elevates Lakers above Spurs and Celtics
2009 Lakers - Shaq fills the Bynum role and then some.
2010 Lakers - See above
2011 Mavericks

Eight Rings, four with each as Alpha. Shaq wins MVP in 2004 and 2005, Kobe in 2006, 2007 and 2008, three MVP's each. They surpass Magic and Kareem as best duo of all-time and both rank in the top four all-time along with MJ and Russell.

I agree with the scenario u laid out! I truly believe that Kobe and Shaq could have achieved those accolades! People need to understand that Kobe wasn't even deep into his prime years when Shaq and Kobe three peated. Kobe's last ring with Shaq was at age 23! So to me that means TOTAL DOMINATION is they stay together. A peak Kobe never got to play with Shaq.

[Ne 1]

How did Kobe "force Shaq out" when it was Shaq that left on his own free will? Kobe was actually ready to sign with the Clippers. The Lakers traded Shaq because he was 32 years old, going into his 13th season, his talent was declining, he was showing up to training camp out of shape and unmotivated, but still demanded max money and Buss refused, and during an exhibition game Shaq called out Buss and pointed and yelled at him "pay me motherf*cker."
Shaq demanded to be traded from the Lakers, while Kobe opted out of his contract and was no longer a Laker. It was basically confirmed that Kobe was going to be a Clipper prior to Shaq being traded. Therefore nobody "forced" Shaq out, since he had an offer on the table, it was 100% his choice. Had Shaq decided to stay a Laker and accepted the offer from Jerry Buss, he'd be a Laker still in 2005. As I already said, Kobe actually had already decided to sign with the Clippers, but Buss made a last-ditch effort to Bryant because he knew how disasterous it would be from a public relations standpoint for the Lakers to lose both of their star players in one offseason. Bryant has admitted he talked to Jerry West and West advised him to stay with the Lakers. Buss and Kupchak convinced him they'd rebuild the franchise and bring in talent. So, he re-signed with the Lakers.

Too long didn't read; Kobe could not have "forced" Shaq out, since Shaq DEMANDED a trade. All Shaq had to do was accept the offer. No team would have been able to trade for him without his consent, so it was 100% in his power to stay. He chose to leave, therefore how can you blame Kobe Bryant for what HE demanded.

[Jacks3]

Kobe didn't "force" Shaq and Phil out of town.

Can't believe still buy that myth.

Shaq himself has said it isn't true.

:facepalm