Your top 5 most skilled players ever (only scoring/passing/ball-handling)?

[fpliii]

Who comes to mind?:confusedshrug:

For the purpose of this thread, ignore rebounding and defense.

Preferably you'd want a guy who can score in a variety of ways (shooting/driving/posting up), but I don't want to limit the conversation too much.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Bird
CP3
Dirk
Kobe

dunno bout last spot..........

Manu
Nash(since we ignoring defense otherwise he wouldnt be top 10)
MJ
Price
Stockton
Penny

can all go. not including defense and rebounding means big men dont get love here unless Dirk OFC

[dubeta]

Bird

LeBron

Steve Nash

Hakeem

Jordan


I have explanations for all if need be

[fpliii]

How about the Pistol?

[Smook A.]

(No order)

Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Michael Jordan
LeBron James
Oscar Robertson

Magic Johnson - Career 20/10 guy. Obviously a great passer and every season of his career (Except 1995-96) he was an above-average scorer.

Larry Bird - Great scorer. His career average for PPG is 24. Larry was a nice passer too. He had one season where he averaged 7.6 apg.

Michael Jordan - MJ has the best scoring career average in the history of the NBA (30.1) so he's definitely one of the most skilled scorers ever. One season of his career, Jordan averaged 8 apg. His career avg is 5.3

LeBron James - I don't like LeBron or hate him, but I gotta say he's one of the best scorers the league has ever seen. Not to mention, he's a great passer for his size. His career avg for ppg and apg is 27.5/7

Oscar Robertson - He's easily one of the best all-around players ever. He's the only player in history to average a triple-double for a whole season (30/10/10). Obviously the guy was a tremendous scorer and passer. He had 6 seasons where he averaged 30+ ppg and 5 seasons where he put up 10+ apg.

Another Thing: If Kevin Durant continues to play great, he can easily finish as one of the most skilled players ever. He already is IMO, but I'm talking about Top 10 potential.

[inclinerator]

lebron bird mj curry kobe

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

(No order)

Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Michael Jordan
LeBron James
Oscar Robertson

Magic Johnson - Career 20/10 guy. Obviously a great passer and every season of his career (Except 1995-96) he was an above-average scorer.

Larry Bird - Great scorer. His career average for PPG is 24. Larry was a nice passer too. He had one season where he averaged 7.6 apg.

Michael Jordan - MJ has the best scoring career average in the history of the NBA (30.1) so he's definitely one of the most skilled scorers ever. One season of his career, Jordan averaged 8 apg. His career avg is 5.3

LeBron James - I don't like LeBron or hate him, but I gotta say he's one of the best scorers the league has ever seen. Not to mention, he's a great passer for his size. His career avg for ppg and apg is 27.5/7

Oscar Robertson - He's easily one of the best all-around players ever. He's the only player in history to average a triple-double for a whole season (30/10/10). Obviously the guy was a tremendous scorer and passer. He had 6 seasons where he averaged 30+ ppg and 5 seasons where he put up 10+ apg.

Another Thing - If Kevin Durant continues the type of MVP season he had, he can easily finish as one of the most skilled players ever.
Magic was dominant b/c of his size compared to other PGs. He wasnt anywhere near as skilled as CP cmon

Lebron dominates b/c of his athleticism and power hes improved skills in Miami but hes not close to top 5. KD dominates b/c of his athleticism and length hes skilled but his ball handling still sucks and hes not that skilled passing

i didnt watch Oscar............u just lookin at stats?

[Milbuck]

Discounting rebounding and defense helps guys like Steve Nash tremendously and really hurts big men in the discussion.

So I guess counting only offensive skills like shooting stroke, range, scoring arsenal, footwork, passing/vision, ball handling, post game, awareness, etc., for me:

Bird
Jordan
Kobe
Lebron
Oscar

Guys like peak CP3 from 2007-2009, Nash, Steph Curry come to mind as well

[Smook A.]

Magic was dominant b/c of his size compared to other PGs. He wasnt anywhere near as skilled as CP cmon

Lebron dominates b/c of his athleticism and power hes improved skills in Miami but hes not close to top 5. KD dominates b/c of his athleticism and length hes skilled but his ball handling still sucks and hes not that skilled passing

i didnt watch Oscar............u just lookin at stats?
No shit. I'm 24.

I've looked at stats, and highlights of him in the past.

[kennethgriffin]

kobe bryant
Isiah Thomas
Lebron James
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West


all these guys can score 30ppg if they want, all these guys could average 10 apg if they wanted. all these guys can run the point. all these guys HAVE run the point ( even if they were listed at another position )


i wouldnt put jordan on there. he had limited handles in the open court. pippen was the leading assist man for the bulls for all 6 titles. and mj was more of a post player allot of his career

[L.Kizzle]

LeBron is not super skilled, he's just super athletic. He's nowhere near a Larry Bird or Oscar Robertson.

Top 5 in no order.

Larry Bird
Oscar Robertson
Pete Maravich
David Thompson
Magic Johnson

Close call is Bill Walton. This thread isn't fair to big men.

[pauk]

Discounting rebounding and defense helps guys like Steve Nash tremendously and really hurts big men in the discussion.

So I guess counting only offensive skills like shooting stroke, range, scoring arsenal, footwork, passing/vision, ball handling, post game, awareness, etc., for me:

Bird
Jordan
Kobe
Lebron
Oscar

Guys like peak CP3 from 2007-2009, Nash, Steph Curry come to mind as well

This.

[pauk]

kobe bryant
Isiah Thomas
Lebron James <--------------------------
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West


all these guys can score 30ppg if they want, all these guys could average 10 apg if they wanted. all these guys can run the point. all these guys HAVE run the point ( even if they were listed at another position )


i wouldnt put jordan on there. he had limited handles in the open court. pippen was the leading assist man for the bulls for all 6 titles. and mj was more of a post player allot of his career

Kenneth!? wow :applause: :biggums:

[Pointguard]

In the past you were expexted to post up.
Frazier had a deep post game
Magic
Bird
LeBron
Nash

[kennethgriffin]

bird's handles werent good enough to run the point IMO

theres no way his simple dribbles and 6-10 frame would be able to bring the ball up the court for 40 minutes a night

hes a great passer though



In the past you were expexted to post up.
Frazier had a deep post game
Magic
Bird
LeBron
Nash


magic isnt anywhere close to being an all around scorer.

nash isnt a great scorer. he shoots lights out cause he only shoots wide open.

[fpliii]

Bird
CP3
Dirk
Kobe

dunno bout last spot..........

Manu
Nash(since we ignoring defense otherwise he wouldnt be top 10)
MJ
Price
Stockton
Penny

can all go. not including defense and rebounding means big men dont get love here unless Dirk OFC

LeBron is not super skilled, he's just super athletic. He's nowhere near a Larry Bird or Oscar Robertson.

Top 5 in no order.

Larry Bird
Oscar Robertson
Pete Maravich
David Thompson
Magic Johnson

Close call is Bill Walton. This thread isn't fair to big men.
True, but I wanted to give more weight to ball-handling.

What if we restrict it to bigs only? Who would your top 5 be?

[JimmyMcAdocious]

Nash is pretty much the perfect offensive PG.

GOAT-level handles, GOAT-level passing/playmaking, and a regular 50-40-90 club member (relative to his peers; most all time). His ability to get in the lane and finish consistently always astounded me, considering his smallish frame and below the rim nature. Yet, he could do it against any defense in any situation. One of the best 3 level scorers in the NBA during his time. Clutch, too, if that is taken into consideration.

[Gotterdammerung]

How about the Pistol?

The most skilled with the ball?
This.

The most fundamentally sound?
Oscar.

Accept no substitutes.

[Round Mound]

Most Skilled by Position:

PG: BIG O
SG: MJ
SG: Bird
PF: Barkley
C: Hakeem

[Fudge]

Bird
Durant
Kobe
Hakeem
Duncan

[FKAri]

People seriously putting Lebron on their lists?

[dubeta]

People seriously putting Lebron on their lists?

27.5/7/7 career averages :confusedshrug:

[FKAri]

27.5/7/7 career averages :confusedshrug:

He's a great passer.
He's ok at every other "skill" by superstar standards.

[joeyjoejoe]

Oscar
Magic
Cp3
Nash

[Kvnzhangyay]

He's a great passer.
He's ok at every other "skill" by superstar standards.

The only real skill he's not elite at imo is honestly his ball handling

[JohnFreeman]

Webber

[SamuraiSWISH]

Wade
McGrady
Kobe
LeBron
Jordan

HM: Durant (weakest passer of bunch)

[Milbuck]

The only real skill he's not elite at imo is honestly his ball handling
His ball handling imo is top notch for his size/position. It's his footwork that is the weak spot of his game. He doesn't quite have the footwork/craftiness that MJ and Kobe had. Part of this might be because he's been so physically imposing and such a freak athlete for so long that he grew up just being able to force his way into the paint and do what he wants, and never had to rely on elite footwork..he's not bad at it, he's just not elite.

Aside from that the only clear weakness was his jumper..which he's obviously improved greatly over the years.

[SamuraiSWISH]

i wouldnt put jordan on there. he had limited handles in the open court. pippen was the leading assist man for the bulls for all 6 titles. and mj was more of a post player allot of his career
False on so many levels, that it isn't even worth discussing. Obviously you're suffering from mental illness.

[Warfan]

False on so many levels, that it isn't even worth discussing. Obviously you're suffering from mental illness.

Ive told him several times that mj led the team in apg for 3 of their titles. And that isnt even the 2nd dumbest thing about his post...

[aj1987]

He's a great passer.
He's ok at every other "skill" by superstar standards.
He's career 28 PPG scorer. Over 11 seasons. He surpassed Bird in total points and played 50 fewer games than him. If this was '11 or earlier, you'd be sort of correct that LeBron is not a highly skilled scorer, but it's not. Don't be naive.

Also, for his size, he has damn good handles.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Ive told him several times that mj led the team in apg for 3 of their titles. And that isnt even the 2nd dumbest thing about his post...
MJ lacked handles in the open court or transition? I could post 2x videos right now of him using his handle creatively to make either Nick Anderson completely fall, or breaking John Stark's ankles.

Couldn't run PG? His end to the '89 season put that to bed. 31 ppg 11 apg in the '91 Finals? Guy is a certified loon.


Also, for his size, he has damn good handles.
LeBron has good handles period. Not just for his size.

[JohnFreeman]

LeBron has good handles period. Not just for his size.
this

[GrapeApe]

No love for Jerry West? He averaged nearly 7 apg for his career to go along with his prolific scoring. He could do it all offensively.

[SamuraiSWISH]

this
Seriously. The underrating of Bron's bball skills continues. Does he have the insane footwork or mid range scoring ability of Jordan, and Kobe? No. But who really does?

But everything else is there in spades. People who just say he's a freak athlete w/o skills, or bball intelligence are disingenuous. LeBron has very good handles.

For his size? He's flat out great in that department. He had PG quality handle. That's just honesty. Durant, and McGrady are the only ones I've seen that height or taller who can compare.

[RRR3]

LeBron is very skilled. Lawl @ people still pretending he's not. He's a great ball handler, not flashy but he takes care of the ball well, he's unstoppable driving to the hoop at times, excellent finisher, he's a very good post player, superb passer with great court vision, and he's become a helluva shooter. Only weakness is mediocre free throw shooting and lack of aggressiveness at times IMO

[pauk]

Also, for his size, he has damn good handles.

For his size? Only Magic Johnson could compete.... Magic & Lebron unlike any other players their size and above had actually elite ballsecurity/ballcontrol, which allowed them to play PG/handle the ball entire games & orchestrate better than anybody their size, even at constant full court pressure entire game.... there is many who could do flashy dribbles at their size but handling is more about control/security.... its about keeping the dribble alive, safe & tight while slithering through the defense doing whatever you want entire game... THAT is handles....

[Nowitness]

For his size? Only Magic Johnson could compete.... Magic & Lebron unlike any other players their size and above had actually elite ballsecurity/ballcontrol, which allowed them to play PG/handle the ball entire games & orchestrate, even at constant full court pressure entire game.... there is many who could do flashy dribbles at their size but handling is more about control/security....

youre the most obvious stan on this board

dpoy7 every year. best handles ever after magic. :facepalm

lebron was never dpoy worthy and hes not close to having the second best handles.

magic isnt even close to first

this kids knowledge = :facepalm

[aj1987]

youre the most obvious stan on this board

dpoy7 every year. best handles ever after magic. :facepalm

lebron was never dpoy worthy and hes not close to having the second best handles.

magic isnt even close to first

this kids knowledge = :facepalm
'09, '10 and '12. He was also getting serious DPOY talk in '13.

[JohnFreeman]

http://33.media.tumblr.com/326ddeafbc976b53904042c36b4e1bf5/tumblr_n6k2osGspK1s3gys4o1_250.gif

[Nowitness]

'09, '10 and '12. He was also getting serious DPOY talk in '13.

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2010.html

not even top 5

[fpliii]

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2010.html

not even top 5
To be fair, that's not real RAPM. It's a blend of RAPM (which comes from play-by-play) and box score stats.

Real RAPM can be found on these sites:

www.gotbuckets.com/statistics/rapm/2014-rapm/
http://ascreamingcomesacrossthecourt.blogspot.com/
https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/

Still not a legitimate DPOY candidate, but when using RAPM, it's better to cite the above sources.

[SamuraiSWISH]

not flashy
He can be flashy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snEoc9Q2cJ4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOTTVwcJXC0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g74XTKtZ78E

[pauk]

youre the most obvious stan on this board

dpoy7 every year. best handles ever after magic. :facepalm

lebron was never dpoy worthy and hes not close to having the second best handles.

magic isnt even close to first

this kids knowledge = :facepalm

You are confusing me... did you actually read what i said?

[aj1987]

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2010.html

not even top 5
Kevin Durant is rated higher than Wade and KD sucked ass in '10 (defensively). CP3 is NOT a negative on the defensive end. Kobe with 0.4 and Odom with 4.0. Haywood was a better defender than LeBron? Josh Smith above Kobe and equal to Timmy. :oldlol:

Great stat, bro.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Kevin Durant is rated higher than Wade and KD sucked ass in '10 (defensively). CP3 is NOT a negative on the defensive end. Kobe with 0.4 and Odom with 4.0. Haywood was a better defender than LeBron? Josh Smith above Kobe and equal to Timmy. :oldlol:

Great stat, bro.
I dont know what that stat is but KD was GREAT defensively in 2010. It was probably his best defensive season so far TBH

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

True, but I wanted to give more weight to ball-handling.

What if we restrict it to bigs only? Who would your top 5 be?
Top 5 skilled bigs?

Hakeem, KG, Dirk, Timmy and Sabonis

[kennethgriffin]

People seriously putting Lebron on their lists?

i only put lebron on my list cause the title said "scoring" and not "shooting"

so i guess any way you can put it in the hole

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

i only put lebron on my list cause the title said "scoring" and not "shooting"

so i guess any way you can put it in the hole

Skill and physical talent are different things.............if u looked at David Robinsons scoring numbers in his best seasons and compared it to Kevin Mchale youd think DRob was the more skilled scorer? Lebron has shit footwork, limited post scoring that he mostly scores from his physicality. His best attribute scoring is at the rim on drives and fastbreak and thats b/c of how fast and physically dominant he is...........not b/c he has an amazing skillset

[BoutPractice]

Among recent players TMac has to be up there. He was also insanely talented, with a gift for improvisation, but it all rested on a solid foundation: his handles were tight, his shot was money, he could make spectacular passes when he was not in chuck mode, and he had a fine post game.

[3ball]

Bird
Magic
Jordan
Baylor
Kobe

Oscar
West
Kidd
Dirk
Tiny

Honestly, if a player doesn't don't have an elite post game, they shouldn't be considered because their scoring is a dimension below the top level - this won't affect the outcome or show up that often as a factor driving the outcome, but it only takes one time in the wrong spot for it to cost them and hurt their legacy, and for it to expose the lower level their repertoire is really on.

If we are going to put guys on here that aren't elite post players, then Tiny should be near the top of that list, especially if we're only talking scoring, passing, and handle - he's the only guy ever to lead the NBA in scoring and assists.

Generally, I'd probably favor players from previous eras because they have the edge in scoring - they were shooting the toughest, "worst shots in basketball" (mid-range shots) a much higher proportion of the time and were far better than today's players at all those types of shots, so their numbers would only improve in a game where coaches can get them to undertake today's more optimal allocation of the easiest, highest efficiency shots.

[Prometheus]

Page four and I'm the first person to mention Allen Iverson?

:wtf:

[rhowen4]

Nash needs to be on every person's list. Same with cp3, his fancy handles balance out how much strength he has and uses.

I feel like using any physical gifts reduce a player's "skill" rating for this, so Nash is my gold standard. I suppose he's tall for a PG though.

I'd definitely put bird and Kobe too. Can't think of a 5th I'm happy with, really tired.

[Sarcastic]

How about the Pistol?


Can't believe you're the only one to mention Pistol Pete here. People don't really understand and appreciate how good he was.

Listen/watch Red Auerbach
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ruz5VkBt0Q

[dannywpt]

Impossible to narrow this down to 5 players. It all comes down to your very own preference.

I say Nash is the most skilled player ever if strictly sticking with scoring, passing and ball handling. This little midget with no athleticism and no defence won back to back MVPs purely because of his offensive skill.

[colts19]

My all skills team.

Center Bill Walton
Pf Larry Bird
Sf Rick Barry
SG Jerry West
PG Big O

[Kblaze8855]

Im not sure Nash is less skilled than anyone. He has equals...but you remove the physical side...and ignore defense...

Hes about as good as anyone.

Really....how many people...if they had Nashs physical ability...would be as good as he was in his prime?

The list isn't long.

[kshutts1]

Bird
Magic
Jordan
Baylor
Kobe

Oscar
West
Kidd
Dirk
Tiny



If Jordan and Kobe are in the top tier (not sure they are) then I don't see how Oscar is NOT.

[kshutts1]

Top 5 skilled bigs?

Hakeem, KG, Dirk, Timmy and Sabonis

I'd say Webber is significantly more skilled than Duncan. Just not nearly as effective.

[kshutts1]

Obviously super difficult to make a skilled players list (and I feel like I have done this before.. maybe I"m already on page 1 or 2 and didn't check, or just a separate thread)...

But...
Nash
Bird
Cousy
Pistol
West
Pearl
AI
Jason Williams

Honestly, just about any flashy offensive player with relatively limited athleticism/size should qualify.
Bird is an outlier in that sense, but he's arguably the most skilled player of all time.
Tons of big men are talented for their size, but their talent still pales in comparison to the little dudes.

[Hoopz2332]

For his size? Only Magic Johnson could compete.... Magic & Lebron unlike any other players their size and above had actually elite ballsecurity/ballcontrol, which allowed them to play PG/handle the ball entire games & orchestrate better than anybody their size, even at constant full court pressure entire game.... there is many who could do flashy dribbles at their size but handling is more about control/security.... its about keeping the dribble alive, safe & tight while slithering through the defense doing whatever you want entire game... THAT is handles....


yeah, that post above talking about Lebron not having handle is hilarious when the biggest reason lebron can do things with the ball like being the primary ball handler, something Durant can't do is exactly because of his dribbling ability. Just let Isiah Thomas, Grant Hill and Kenny Smith elaborate on it below


Open Court: You Remind Me LeBron James

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIJaey_yWwk&hd=1

some examples

LeBron James SICK! Spin Move on Brezec

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQGIt9TehF8&hd=1

^^iso type play


LeBron James destroys the rim vs. Chicago Bulls (Game 4 Playoffs 2010) (HD)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FtP26pnlFc&hd=1

^^splitting trap handle


LeBron James One-Handed Dunk against the Bulls (Game 1, May 15, 2011)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRRaJKvNbSo&hd=1

^^open/full court, change of pace and direction, dribble


Lebron James 1st Half Dunk Highlights vs Thunder 12-13-09

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPusHKKGP78&hd=1

^^@ :45 sec, think about the size of lebron while he's doing that. Durat wishes he could do that w/o getting stripped


LeBron James Sick Spin Move & Layup Vs Heat (3.2.09)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzSUTamrYnY&hd=1

^^showcasing the left hand dribble

Dunk of the Night (05/07/2009): LeBron James Buzzer Beater Reverse Jam vs. Hawks (Monster Slam)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fuq62O9WAZo&hd=1

^^stutter step-hesitation

LeBron James breaks Ruben Patterson's Ankle (2005)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOHxZGSAWqY&hd=1

^^reverse through the legs step back,crossover

[bizil]

If we are talking just flat out the guys who are the most effective doing all three great:

For guys who are great passers first (typically PG's or point forward types) but ALSO great scorers:

Big O
Lebron
Magic
Tiny-Isiah-CP3 style of PG (can't really separate them)
Frazier-Payton style of PG (can't really separate them)

For guys who are great scorers first (typically SG's or SF's who can also play as a PG or point forward) but also great passers:

Pistol Pete
MJ
Kobe
Wade
T-Mac

HM: West, Iverson, Barry, Drexler



Now if u want guys who are great shooters (from anywhere) and great passers in one u got these guys:

Bird
West
Nash
Mark Price
Curry



But to cover all the bases, I think a fair top five would be:

Big O
West
MJ
Kobe
Pistol Pete

But Bird is the ANAMOLY becasue he's a good of a shooter AND passer in one as anybody ever. But he doesn't have the handles or pace to play the PG spot like the other guys. If this was just PURE OFFENSIVE ABILITY minus handles, Bird would win this HANDS DOWN!

[La Frescobaldi]

If we are talking just flat out the guys who are the most effective doing all three great:

For guys who are great passers first (typically PG's or point forward types) but ALSO great scorers:

Big O
Lebron
Magic
Tiny-Isiah-CP3 style of PG (can't really separate them)
Frazier-Payton style of PG (can't really separate them)

For guys who are great scorers first (typically SG's or SF's who can also play as a PG or point forward) but also great passers:

Pistol Pete
MJ
Kobe
Wade
T-Mac

HM: West, Iverson, Barry, Drexler



Now if u want guys who are great shooters (from anywhere) and great passers in one u got these guys:

Bird
West
Nash
Mark Price
Curry



But to cover all the bases, I think a fair top five would be:

Big O
West
MJ
Kobe
Pistol Pete

But Bird is the ANAMOLY becasue he's a good of a shooter AND passer in one as anybody ever. But he doesn't have the handles or pace to play the PG spot like the other guys. If this was just PURE OFFENSIVE ABILITY minus handles, Bird would win this HANDS DOWN!


That right there is a great post. Do we have reps atm because yer getting one if there is.

[bizil]

One guy that could be scary in this conversation for the future (not quite there yet though) is Durant! He's as good of a shooter AND ball handler as any player 6'10 and up EVER! He's just missing the passing part. He's a very good passer, but he's not a great passer. U know on that Bird, Bron, Barry, Pippen, or Hondo level for a SF. Those guys were among the top 10 passers in the league for their given eras. But Durant is such a hard worker and smart player that he could EVENTUALLY turn into a great passer.

The more and more Durant game evolves, the more and more Durant will resemble a way more athletic 6'10 or 6'11 version of Larry Bird. Because Durant will be a great shooter/scorer, great rebounder, AND great passer in one at SF just like Bird. And rack up the triple doubles easy as hell. In that sense, Rick Barry was kind of the pioneer, Bird took it to the next level. But with Durant's length and athletic ability, he would take that style of SF to insane heights! And Durant also has the elements of T-Mac and Gervin to throw on top it!

[Black Mamba's B]

People seriously putting Lebron on their lists?

This ^^^^^^^

Kobe/Jordan
Magic/Bird
Hakeem
Nash
Isiah

[Lebron23]

If we are talking just flat out the guys who are the most effective doing all three great:

For guys who are great passers first (typically PG's or point forward types) but ALSO great scorers:

Big O
Lebron
Magic
Tiny-Isiah-CP3 style of PG (can't really separate them)
Frazier-Payton style of PG (can't really separate them)

For guys who are great scorers first (typically SG's or SF's who can also play as a PG or point forward) but also great passers:

Pistol Pete
MJ
Kobe
Wade
T-Mac

HM: West, Iverson, Barry, Drexler



Now if u want guys who are great shooters (from anywhere) and great passers in one u got these guys:

Bird
West
Nash
Mark Price
Curry



But to cover all the bases, I think a fair top five would be:

Big O
West
MJ
Kobe
Pistol Pete

But Bird is the ANAMOLY becasue he's a good of a shooter AND passer in one as anybody ever. But he doesn't have the handles or pace to play the PG spot like the other guys. If this was just PURE OFFENSIVE ABILITY minus handles, Bird would win this HANDS DOWN!


Great Post. and your avatar have a great @$$.

[dubeta]

LeBron is probably the most skilled all around

Never had the quickness or body control of Jordan, the height of Durant, the strength of Shaq, the speed of D Rose, never had any of this but still puts up 27/7/7 on 57% in his sleep

Can play #1-4 effectively on the court.

[Cold soul]

Bird
Kobe
Jordan
Oscar
Lebron

Those 5 for sure as others have said.

[bizil]

For the big guys:

Barkley
KG
Webber
Derrick Coleman
Larry Johnson
Blake Griffin
Odom
Kukoc
George McGinnis

[SHAQisGOAT]

Probably

Bird
Pistol
Nash
Oscar
MJ

Also got West, Magic, Walton, Barry, Kobe, Price, Durant... Hard to pick, I'd say Bird is overall the most skilled player ever though.

As you can see skill is MAJOR but plenty of times not even all of it (example of Nash not being top20, Pistol not even top40)... You also need them intagibles, height and/or athleticism.

And people saying Bird didn't have handles?! He had some nice handles, go watch some games please, just not the lateral quickness and full-court speed to play full-time PG, and he even liked to play off-ball more.

[Mass Debator]

My pick is CP3. Can shoot inside/outside. Can finish with contact. Can D up. Can dribble on a string. Can pass.

For big guys, give me Hakeem or KG.

[magnax1]

The top two are definitely Bird and Kobe IMO. After that
Jordan
Oscar
Dirk
Nash
West
in no particular order. Could probably put in Duncan or Kareem too.

[bizil]

Probably

Bird
Pistol
Nash
Oscar
MJ

Also got West, Magic, Walton, Barry, Kobe, Price, Durant... Hard to pick, I'd say Bird is overall the most skilled player ever though.

As you can see skill is MAJOR but plenty of times not even all of it (example of Nash not being top20, Pistol not even top40)... You also need them intagibles, height and/or athleticism.

And people saying Bird didn't have handles?! He had some nice handles, go watch some games please, just not the lateral quickness and full-court speed to play full-time PG, and he even liked to play off-ball more.

I agree with that assessment! He had good handles, but u could put guys 6'8 and up like Magic, Bron, Grant Hill, T-Mac, and Pippen at the PG position flat out. Those guys had the handles and pace or close to it as the smaller PG's. Bird has the scoring and passing on lock. But when u throw in handles, I think he takes a backseat to guys like Magic, Bron, MJ, and Kobe when combining the scoring, passing, and handles.

[bizil]

I think the one part of this question that some people may sleep on is the ball handling aspects. When it comes to bigs, it's gonna limit many of them because many SKILLED BIGS don't have the handles to really enter this equation. For example, Bill Walton is as skilled as any big man ever in terms of combining scoring, passing, defense, and rebounding. But when u throw in ball handling, u have guys like Barkley, KG, Webber, and Griffin who are MORE EQUIPPED for this discussion than guys like Walton or Kareem.

Guys like Barkley, Webber, and KG had handles and passing ability on par with the perimeter players. They were for ALL INTENSIVE PURPOSES kind of point power forwards. We are just talking scoring, passing, and ball handling. So this discussion is gonna be slanted to perimeter players or versatile big men who have handles and passing on par with the perimeter players.

[elementally morale]

No order.

Larry Bird
Hakeem Olajuwon
Michael Jordan
Kobe Bryant
Bill Walton

Honorable mentions:


Arvydas Sabonis
Kevin McHale
Steve Nash
Rasheed Wallace
Pete Maravich

[elementally morale]

For the big guys:

Barkley
KG
Webber
Derrick Coleman
Larry Johnson
Blake Griffin
Odom
Kukoc
George McGinnis


Bill Walton and Arvydas Sabonis had way more skill than any of these players.

[bizil]

Bill Walton and Arvydas Sabonis had way more skill than any of these players.

But once again the question had BALL HANDLING as part of the equation. When u factor that in, Sabonis and Walton take a backseat. Sabonis and Walton played ONLY the center position. Guys like KG and Barkley were so versatile as big men they played the SF position often. Blake Griffin, Odom, Kukoc, Derrick Coleman, and Webber have way more handles than Sabonis or Walton. I'm not saying Walton and Sabonis have terrible handles. But many of the guys I named ACTUALLY ran the fast break for their teams and even played the SF position in addition to their natural PF spot.

[Hey Yo]

Magic Johnson - Career 20/10 guy. Obviously a great passer and every season of his career (Except 1995-96) he was an above-average scorer.
The OP said that shooting was one of the criteria's. Magic had no jump shot whatsoever and was mostly a back to the basket guy. Had there been the "back to basket" 5 second rule back in the day, Magic would have been called for it a lot.

[dreamwarrior]

C - Hakeem Olajuwon
SG - Kobe Bryant
SF - Kevin Durant
PF - Derrick Coleman
PG - Kevin Johnson

[Pointguard]

magic isnt anywhere close to being an all around scorer.

nash isnt a great scorer. he shoots lights out cause he only shoots wide open.

Magic is vastly superior to anybody on your list in passing and ballhandling. A whole different league. Scoring wise his judgement of when to shoot was among the best in the game. So almost always shot better than the guys on your list in TS and EFG% as well. His post game was among the best of backcourt men because of his hook shot, passing and superior judgement. So basically you are trying to overhype the jump shot above all other skills.

And when Nash shoots better than them all you disclaim that.

[Pointguard]

The OP said that shooting was one of the criteria's. Magic had no jump shot whatsoever and was mostly a back to the basket guy. Had there been the "back to basket" 5 second rule back in the day, Magic would have been called for it a lot.
Shooting is a subcategory of scoring, as is efficiency and even assist. Magic shot a lot better than Bird in FG%, TS% and EFG% because he was skilled at scoring. He didn't dunk as much as Kobe or Lebron.

[Hey Yo]

Shooting is a subcategory of scoring, as is efficiency and even assist. Magic shot a lot better than Bird in FG%, TS% and EFG% because he was skilled at scoring. He didn't dunk as much as Kobe or Lebron.
He was skilled at scoring "near the basket"

Like I said, he was a back to the basket guy with no jump shot. Yes he scored but he's not the guy who you want taking a 3 or 2pt mid range shot with 3 seconds left and the game on the line.

And please don't show me the running hook in the lane for the winner. That was prob. the only one he made cause he didn't get that many opportunities because he wasn't that great of shooter.

[bizil]

Magic is vastly superior to anybody on your list in passing and ballhandling. A whole different league. Scoring wise his judgement of when to shoot was among the best in the game. So almost always shot better than the guys on your list in TS and EFG% as well. His post game was among the best of backcourt men because of his hook shot, passing and superior judgement. So basically you are trying to overhype the jump shot above all other skills.

And when Nash shoots better than them all you disclaim that.

Great post and I agree! I don't think many people realize the question that was asked. The question was who combines scoring, passing, and handles the best. In terms of pass first kind of guys, I think Magic, Big O, and Lebron are the best of all time in that regard. All three of them were alpha dog level scorers FLAT OUT! In terms of scoring skillset, players get their points differently. Breaking down Magic's scoring skillset, he was a great slasher, great in the post, very good in the midrange, and came to be a good three point shooter. And as you said, his IQ in terms of when to pass and when to score (likely the most valuable trait a PG needs to have) was second to none!

[bizil]

Shooting is a subcategory of scoring, as is efficiency and even assist. Magic shot a lot better than Bird in FG%, TS% and EFG% because he was skilled at scoring. He didn't dunk as much as Kobe or Lebron.

Well said! Points are points flat out! If people are so preoccupied with who has the best scoring skillset, then create a question about it. If u are asking who the best scorers are, u look at numbers and their mentality. Some guys like Durant and Bird are pure shooters who are also skilled in other areas of scoring. Some guys like Dominique and Dr.J are epic slashers who have enough of a midrange game to keep the D honest. Some guys like Gervin, MJ, Bernard King, Melo, and Kobe are great in the midrange, slashing, and in the post.

U have stretch PF's like Dirk who can also slash. But then u have PF's like Duncan who dominates on the block and are also great in the midrange game. The bottom line is great scorers are great scorers. And guys do it differently than one another. Dominique and Larry Bird to me were equal in terms of scoring dominance. But they did it differently. If u prefer one to the other fine. But u can't just diss Nique because he wasn't a pure shooter like Bird.