Do any of you want religion/God to be true?

[Nowitness]

I'm sure a good amount of the people on this site believe in God and surrender their mind to a religion but are you happy believing it is true?

To Atheists, would you want it to be true if there were evidence?

[ace23]

It'd be cool if God were real and I was guaranteed a spot in heaven as the Bible describes it.

[Patrick Chewing]

God is real. Heaven and Hell are real.

To look at the world and the universe and convince yourself that it is all there "by chance" is ludicrous.

[DwnShft2Xcelr8]

It'd be cool if God were real and I was guaranteed a spot in heaven as the Qu'ran describes it.

[Noob Saibot]

I want Mortal Kombat to be real.

[Nowitness]

It'd be cool if God were real and I was guaranteed a spot in heaven as the Qu'ran describes it.

72 Virgins. Islam has some pretty interesting ideas.

[Nowitness]

God is real. Heaven and Hell are real.

To look at the world and the universe and convince yourself that it is all there "by chance" is ludicrous.

It is so easy to counter this and say that if the idea of a creator is ludicrous on two levels.

Firstly if everything is cause and effect like believers claim who creator God?

And have you actually looked at this universe? I don't think God would be happy claiming this to be his creation.

Also nice leap going from too coincidental to assuring us heaven and hell are real. Thankfully it is clear you're trolling.

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

Yeah.. sure I'd want it to be true.

I think it's a nice game that heads right up with the Greatest Happiness Principle.

People who live like lions proudly are almost never religious. The Sheens of this world will die with a big grin on their face.

And the humble and the meek and the righteous can enjoy eternal heaven with the backstreet boys and harps and angels and Charlie the dog.

[Patrick Chewing]

It is so easy to counter this and say that if the idea of a creator is ludicrous on two levels.

Firstly if everything is cause and effect like believers claim who creator God?

And have you actually looked at this universe? I don't think God would be happy claiming this to be his creation.

Also nice leap going from too coincidental to assuring us heaven and hell are real. Thankfully it is clear you're trolling.


The creator always existed. You cannot create something from nothing as Big Bang proponents want you to believe.

[KyrieTheFuture]

I want God to be real, but have literally everyone be totally wrong about it. Something even more unbelievable than the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

[Nowitness]

The creator always existed. You cannot create something from nothing as Big Bang proponents want you to believe.

I knew that was coming. I can admit we don't understand how the Universe works, people are looking for answers.

You claim to know them based on a book.

[ThePhantomCreep]

No.

The Christian God is a psychopath.

[Nowitness]

No.

The Christian God is a psychopath.

Exactly. Totalitarian, able to persecute thought crime. Blood thirsty, didn't want to help humanity for anywhere between 248,000/98,000 years.

Who would want an eternal father figure watching over you forever, even after you die?

[T_L_P]

Bruh, you've mad like 10 religion threads.

Are you a self-hating Christian?

[Nowitness]

Bruh, you've mad like 10 religion threads.

Are you a self-hating Christian?

I was born again, then died again. C'mon son.

[Patrick Chewing]

I knew that was coming. I can admit we don't understand how the Universe works, people are looking for answers.

You claim to know them based on a book.


A book has nothing to do with it. All religious books (Bible, Torah, Quran, Vedas) are merely history books as best as the ancient world can describe, with general guidance for all followers.

From a historical standpoint, there is loads of evidence of divine presence on this planet at some point in the last 8000 or so years.

To me, the disbelief in God is merely just an attack on Christianity which has been on the rise in the last half-century. It's become cool and trendy to attack Christianity.

But Christianity is a religion. You do not have to be a Christian to believe in God and you do not have to be a Christian to be accepted by God.

[Nanners]

The creator always existed. You cannot create something from nothing as Big Bang proponents want you to believe.

your posts just get dumber and dumber

the big bang is not "creating something from nothing". we dont know what came before the big bang, that doesnt mean it was nothing.

besides, how is it possible for god to exist if you cannot create something out of nothing? what was your god created from?

[Nowitness]

A book has nothing to do with it. All religious books (Bible, Torah, Quran, Vedas) are merely history books as best as the ancient world can describe, with general guidance for all followers.

From a historical standpoint, there is loads of evidence of divine presence on this planet at some point in the last 8000 or so years.

To me, the disbelief in God is merely just an attack on Christianity which has been on the rise in the last half-century. It's become cool and trendy to attack Christianity.

But Christianity is a religion. You do not have to be a Christian to believe in God and you do not have to be a Christian to be accepted by God.

No, it hasn't become cool. It has become necessary, it has become justified. That is the only difference. I mean, hell probably just after the decline in murder and hatred to opposing beliefs that has been going on for the better part of 2,000 years. Give me a rise in Atheists debating against redundant Christian views over Christians slaughtering non believers because they fear they will be punished.

I'm sure most know the two are separate. But to have a concept of heaven and hell is entirely based on those 'historical books'. And whilst you may not have to be Christian to accept God I'm sure if he were real he'd be a pretty big douche if we were forced to accept him even if we don't want to (which is the question I posed).

[fpliii]

It's obviously not, but I wish it was. Would be amazing if there was more to existence than our short lifespans.

More reason to make the most out of each day though, live for now, not for never.

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

Exactly. Totalitarian, able to persecute thought crime. Blood thirsty, didn't want to help humanity for anywhere between 248,000/98,000 years.

Who would want an eternal father figure watching over you forever, even after you die?

That's also the behavior of a very successful, selfish evolved Ape General IMO. It's the tyrannical mark of what it takes to be above all.

It's how Koba rose above Caesar.

[Patrick Chewing]

your posts just get dumber and dumber

the big bang is not "creating something from nothing". we dont know what came before the big bang, that doesnt mean it was nothing.

besides, how is it possible for god to exist if you cannot create something out of nothing? what was your god created from?


Leave the insults for grade school. I'm trying to explain that it would be a circular and futile argument to keep asking what was before this and who was before that.

Remember Einstein's explanation of the fabric of time? He said that the past, present, and future all exist at the same time. So we cannot get muddled with this. Scientists want you to believe in a big bang, but yet have no explanation for it. Yet, if the universe is as old as they say it is, why is there no evidence of other big bangs of creation?

So I'll look at this from a non-religious perspective and say, since you cannot create something from nothing, then I can firmly believe that something created it and this is the creator, God, whatever you want to call it.

[Nanners]

Leave the insults for grade school. I'm trying to explain that it would be a circular and futile argument to keep asking what was before this and who was before that.

Remember Einstein's explanation of the fabric of time? He said that the past, present, and future all exist at the same time. So we cannot get muddled with this. Scientists want you to believe in a big bang, but yet have no explanation for it. Yet, if the universe is as old as they say it is, why is there no evidence of other big bangs of creation?

So I'll look at this from a non-religious perspective and say, since you cannot create something from nothing, then I can firmly believe that something created it and this is the creator, God, whatever you want to call it.

since you only understand science at a grade school level, wouldnt that make this is the perfect place for some insults?

you are an idiot.

[BigBoss]

God is real. Heaven and Hell are real.

To look at the world and the universe and convince yourself that it is all there "by chance" is ludicrous.

Undeveloped you are.

[Patrick Chewing]

since you only understand science at a grade school level, i think this is the perfect place for some insults.

you are an idiot.


Proof that if you are an atheist, you are also vile.

I'm waiting for your "science" so that you may educate me on why there is no God.

I eagerly await your copy and paste reply.

[Patrick Chewing]

Look at all the replies from those that don't believe. Nothing but insults.

:lol

[Droid101]

Look at all the replies from those that don't believe. Nothing but insults.

:lol
What else can be done for people who don't understand science, and also refuse to try to understand science?

You, plainly, are an idiot.

[Nanners]

Proof that if you are an atheist, you are also vile.

I'm waiting for your "science" so that you may educate me on why there is no God.

I eagerly await your copy and paste reply.

:oldlol:

you are damn right i am vile

and where exactly do you think i am copy pasting my replies from? thats a new one.

btw i am agnostic, not atheist. big difference. i have never claimed there is no god. i think it is unlikely that there is a god, and extremely unlikely that there is a god as described by any of the mainstream religions, but it is possible, and there is really no way for anybody to be sure either way.



Look at all the replies from those that don't believe. Nothing but insults.

:lol

the only responses that your idiotic ramblings warrant is insults. maybe if you showed an inkling of intelligence you would get a better response.

[Nowitness]

Proof that if you are an atheist, you are also vile.

I'm waiting for your "science" so that you may educate me on why there is no God.

I eagerly await your copy and paste reply.

I'm sure you actually hold this viewpoint. Good thing about Atheism is that;

A) Evil acts and redundant ideas such as circumcision, homophobia, slavery, anti-abortion/stem cell research and misogynistic viewpoints can't be justified by saying a book says so.

B) Very few things are done in the name of Atheism, whereas a ton of stupid things are done in the name of God.

C) That is possibly his only characteristic he shares we other Atheists, that he doesn't hold belief (if he is an Atheist). There are no codes we need to follow that limit us.

[NumberSix]

The creator always existed. You cannot create something from nothing as Big Bang proponents want you to believe.
That's not what the big bang means.

Big bang =/= creation of the universe

Big bang = expansion

[Nanners]

i am actually considering joining the church of satan, they seem pretty legit

http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2014/05/07/satan-statue-should-welcome-oklahoma/QtZFYK4ab9bLyosi9Y88IN/story.html

[quote]Since 2012, a statue of the Ten Commandments has graced the lawn outside the Oklahoma State Capitol in Oklahoma City. Now, it

[Patrick Chewing]

:oldlol:

you are damn right i am vile

and where exactly do you think i am copy pasting my replies from? thats a new one.

btw i am agnostic, not atheist. big difference. i have never claimed there is no god. i think it is unlikely that there is a god, and extremely unlikely that there is a god as described by any of the mainstream religions, but it is possible, and there is really no way for anybody to be sure either way.




the only responses that your idiotic ramblings warrant is insults. maybe if you showed an inkling of intelligence you would get a better response.


Still waiting for your science since Einstein's Theory of Relativity wasn't good enough for you.

[Real14]

God is real. Big bang theory is nothing but a bullshit cover up. P.Chewing knows what he's talking about.

[Nanners]

Still waiting for your science since Einstein's Theory of Relativity wasn't good enough for you.

what the hell are you talking about? how exactly does relativity disprove anything about the big bang theory?

[NumberSix]

btw i am agnostic, not atheist. big difference. i have never claimed there is no god. i think it is unlikely that there is a god, and extremely unlikely that there is a god as described by any of the mainstream religions, but it is possible, and there is really no way for anybody to be sure either way.
Honestly, people who claim to be "agnostic" are bigger idiots than people who believe in deities.

Of course you're agnostic. Every living thing on the planet is. It's redundant to label yourself as "agnostic".

[Real14]

i am actually considering joining the church of satan, they seem pretty legit

http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2014/05/07/satan-statue-should-welcome-oklahoma/QtZFYK4ab9bLyosi9Y88IN/story.html




http://assets.vice.com/content-images/contentimage/151992/Screen-Shot-2014-05-01-at-1-26-06-PM.jpg
If anybody don't believe in God then they definitely believe in satan that includes atheists. So yea maybe you should:coleman:

[Nowitness]

Honestly, people who claim to be "agnostic" are bigger idiots than people who believe in deities.

Of course you're agnostic. Every living thing on the planet is. It's redundant to label yourself as "agnostic".

An agnostic is someone who neither believes nor disbelieves in the existence of a deity or deities, whereas a theist and an atheist believe and disbelieve, respectively.

You smokin' san? Just because we may never know doesn't mean we don't assert.

[Patrick Chewing]

what the hell are you talking about? how exactly does relativity disprove anything about the big bang theory?



since you only understand science at a grade school level, wouldnt that make this is the perfect place for some insults?

you are an idiot.


You were rebutting my statement about God being ever-present I'm assuming. You need to keep up with your replies. I was actually trying to be civil with you and warning that you that we cannot get into a debate about who came first and who created what since we honestly do not know. The best we can do is use Einstein's Theory of Relativity to possibly answer the question about a "Creator" always being there and the universe/stars/planets/life coming afterwards.

I'm no bible-thumper. I'm trying to use science to prove Creationism and not the alternative. But if you guys have other science proving otherwise, I'd love to see it.

[Real14]

An agnostic is someone who neither believes nor disbelieves in the existence of a deity or deities, whereas a theist and an atheist believe and disbelieve, respectively.

You smokin' san? Just because we may never know doesn't mean we don't assert.
they are still as guilty just like an atheist because they don't fully believe in God.

[Quizno]

religion is stupid as ****

[Nanners]

You were rebutting my statement about God being ever-present I'm assuming. You need to keep up with your replies. I was actually trying to be civil with you and warning that you that we cannot get into a debate about who came first and who created what since we honestly do not know. The best we can do is use Einstein's Theory of Relativity to possibly answer the question about a "Creator" always being there and the universe/stars/planets/life coming afterwards.

I'm no bible-thumper. I'm trying to use science to prove Creationism and not the alternative. But if you guys have other science proving otherwise, I'd love to see it.

:oldlol:

and HOW EXACTLY can relativity be used to explain the existence of a creator? i dont see any connection there.

if it was possible to prove creationism with science, someone would have already done it. god knows plenty of people have tried (and failed spectacularly)

[Brokenbeat]

http://www.irreligion.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/god-v-satan.png

I'd prefer it if the devil was real since god is such a dick.

[NumberSix]

An agnostic is someone who neither believes nor disbelieves in the existence of a deity or deities, whereas a theist and an atheist believe and disbelieve, respectively.

You smokin' san? Just because we may never know doesn't mean we don't assert.
Not even close


Gnostic

Relating to knowledge, especially esoteric mystical knowledge.

Origin

late 16th century (as a noun): via ecclesiastical Latin from Greek gnōstikos, from gnōstos 'known' (related to gignōskein 'know').

Gnostic = to have knowledge

Agnostic = to lack having knowledge



"Agnostic" literally means "not knowing". "Not knowing" applies to everybody. None of us know what is or isn't outside of the known universe.

[QUOTE][B]the

[Nowitness]

Not even close




Gnostic = to have knowledge

Agnostic = to lack having knowledge



"Agnostic" literally means "not knowing". "Not knowing" applies to everybody. None of us know what is or isn't outside of the known universe.



Theism = belief in god(s)
Atheism = the lack of belief in god(s)


Lacking a belief =/= believing the opposite.




Agnostic = not knowing if there is a god.
Atheist = not believing there is a god. That doesn't mean believing there ISN'T a god.

Which is exactly why I label myself as an antitheist. Checkmate.

[Swaggin916]

God no by the time I'm old and crusty I will probably be so sick of the human experience that I hope there isn't anything that resembles it after I die.

[Brokenbeat]

You were rebutting my statement about God being ever-present I'm assuming. You need to keep up with your replies. I was actually trying to be civil with you and warning that you that we cannot get into a debate about who came first and who created what since we honestly do not know. The best we can do is use Einstein's Theory of Relativity to possibly answer the question about a "Creator" always being there and the universe/stars/planets/life coming afterwards.

I'm no bible-thumper. I'm trying to use science to prove Creationism and not the alternative. But if you guys have other science proving otherwise, I'd love to see it.

Royal Society = 97% non-theists

American National Academy of Sciences = 93% non-theists


But hey, what do they know? I'm sure you can set them straight. :oldlol: :hammerhead:

[NumberSix]

Which is exactly why I label myself as an antitheist. Checkmate.
Assuming you even know what it means. By your recent history........

[RoseCity07]

You really can't get anywhere with a religious person. Indoctrination is powerful.

I read somewhere that the brain rewards you for holding onto your beliefs. So trying to talk to a religious person with logic will only make them hold onto their beliefs even stronger.

As for the question, I wouldn't want the god of any religion mankind has created. I feel like the book God Delusion captures all my feelings on the subject of religion. It's useless thing today that causes nothing but trouble. Yes it gives people comfort, but so does Santa for children. There comes a time when you have to grow up. It's amazing how children figure out that Santa isn't real, but adults can't let go of the idea of a man in the sky watching over them.

[Brokenbeat]

Let's see what Einstein himself has to say about god:


The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.
-- Albert Einstein


I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms.
-- Albert Einstein


For me the Jewish religion like all others is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything "chosen" about them.
-- Albert Einstein


I cannot conceive of a personal God who would directly influence the actions of individuals, or would directly sit in judgment on creatures of his own creation. I cannot do this in spite of the fact that mechanistic causality has, to a certain extent, been placed in doubt by modern science. [He was speaking of Quantum Mechanics and the breaking down of determinism.] My religiosity consists in a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of reality. Morality is of the highest importance -- but for us, not for God.
-- Albert Einstein


It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
-- Albert Einstein

[Nowitness]

You really can't get anywhere with a religious person. Indoctrination is powerful.

I read somewhere that the brain rewards you for holding onto your beliefs. So trying to talk to a religious person with logic will only make them hold onto their beliefs even stronger.

As for the question, I wouldn't want the god of any religion mankind has created. I feel like the book God Delusion captures all my feelings on the subject of religion. It's useless thing today that causes nothing but trouble. Yes it gives people comfort, but so does Santa for children. There comes a time when you have to grow up. It's amazing how children figure out that Santa isn't real, but adults can't let go of the idea of a man in the sky watching over them.

Love that Dawkins quote.

[Brokenbeat]

You really can't get anywhere with a religious person. Indoctrination is powerful.

I read somewhere that the brain rewards you for holding onto your beliefs. So trying to talk to a religious person with logic will only make them hold onto their beliefs even stronger.

As for the question, I wouldn't want the god of any religion mankind has created. I feel like the book God Delusion captures all my feelings on the subject of religion. It's useless thing today that causes nothing but trouble. Yes it gives people comfort, but so does Santa for children. There comes a time when you have to grow up. It's amazing how children figure out that Santa isn't real, but adults can't let go of the idea of a man in the sky watching over them.


Yup, it's called confirmation bias.

[Patrick Chewing]

Royal Society = 97% non-theists

American National Academy of Sciences = 93% non-theists


But hey, what do they know? I'm sure you can set them straight. :oldlol: :hammerhead:


LOL Science is always changing. Nothing is ever concrete in the scientific world.


Scientists still can't explain how DNA was created, yet simpletons all across the globe believe in Evolution as irrefutable certainty.

[RoseCity07]

LOL Science is always changing. Nothing is ever concrete in the scientific world.


Scientists still can't explain how DNA was created, yet simpletons all across the globe believe in Evolution as irrefutable certainty.

Okay, and this is evidence that the Bible is correct? If science has these built in methods to get it right and revise, then how wrong is the Bible which has no method for correcting its errors?

Science is tentative. You say that as if it's a bad thing. It's a great thing. No scientist would be ashamed of the scientific method.

[GimmeThat]

no one is really against the idea of religion/God in my opinion.


they might just be against the idea of living a healthy life.


to accept the unknown.
instead of risking the unknown.

[Nanners]

Scientists still can't explain how DNA was created, yet simpletons all across the globe believe in Evolution as irrefutable certainty.

like those simpletons at monsanto who use evolutionary principles to design products that earn them billions of dollars, right?

[Real14]

LOL Science is always changing. Nothing is ever concrete in the scientific world.


Scientists still can't explain how DNA was created, yet simpletons all across the globe believe in Evolution as irrefutable certainty.

Exactly. Who makes us breath? Who make our brain function? To all of the non believers out there, you can't see wind but you believe its there right?

[RoseCity07]

The real problem with religion is that it teaches people to stop asking questions. They can live their lives and just know that some being out there figured it all out and they don't have to think for themselves. Just be a follower.

This thinking leads to war and destruction. You see it in the news every single night. People killing each other over which god is the right god.

This can't happen in science. If there is disagreement, you talk about it, use evidence to support your claim. People either reach consensus or they don't. Disagreement about the the creator being of the Earth or the universe drives people to murder and hate.

[Brokenbeat]

LOL Science is always changing. Nothing is ever concrete in the scientific world.


Scientists still can't explain how DNA was created, yet simpletons all across the globe believe in Evolution as irrefutable certainty.


Irrefutable certainty for creationists:

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/937240/ray-s-banana-o.gif

[Nowitness]

no one is really against the idea of religion/God in my opinion.


they might just be against the idea of living a healthy life.


to accept the unknown.
instead of risking the unknown.

Yes, they are. There are many reasons for it. Ranging from God being petty, not wanting to live in a George Orwell novel, not surrendering your mind to a book, refusing to be told who you can have sex with and how.

[Patrick Chewing]

Okay, and this is evidence that the Bible is correct? If science has these built in methods to get it right and revise, then how wrong is the Bible which has no method for correcting its errors?

Science is tentative. You say that as if it's a bad thing. It's a great thing. No scientist would be ashamed of the scientific method.


I said earlier in this thread that the Bible is merely a history book on past events. I don't even own a Bible. Again, people are so quick to shoot down Christians since it's the dominant religion across the globe.

Forget Christianity and forget the Bible. I'm more interested in how science can invariably prove the existence of a deity by using that same science to show that there are things on this Earth, in the universe, and within ourselves that cannot be scientifically explained. While DNA research is still fairly new, I'm fascinated by the fact that we can find nothing else like it here on Earth or begin to explain its origins.

[Patrick Chewing]

This is a good read on Creationism for those non-believers who at least have an open mind about the whole thing.

http://www.icr.org/article/105/

[Nanners]

While DNA research is still fairly new, I'm fascinated by the fact that we can find nothing else like it here on Earth or begin to explain its origins.

we might not know the full story about DNA yet but we can definitely "begin to explain its origins"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK6360/


The transition from the RNA to the DNA world was a major event in the history of life. The invention of DNA required the appearance of enzymatic activities for both synthesis of DNA precursors, retro-transcription of RNA templates and replication of singleand double-stranded DNA molecules. Recent data from comparative genomics, structural biology and traditional biochemistry have revealed that several of these enzymatic activities have been invented independently more than once, indicating that the transition from RNA to DNA genomes was more complex than previously thought. The distribution of the different protein families corresponding to these activities in the three domains of life (Archaea, Eukarya, and Bacteria) is puzzling. In many cases, Archaea and Eukarya contain the same version of these proteins, whereas Bacteria contain another version. However, in other cases, such as thymidylate synthases or type II DNA topoisomerases, the phylogenetic distributions of these proteins do not follow this simple pattern. Several hypotheses have been proposed to explain these observations, including independent invention of DNA and DNA replication proteins, ancient gene transfer and gene loss, and/or nonorthologous replacement. We review all of them here, with more emphasis on recent proposals suggesting that viruses have played a major role in the origin and evolution of the DNA replication proteins and possibly of DNA itself.

[RoseCity07]

I said earlier in this thread that the Bible is merely a history book on past events. I don't even own a Bible. Again, people are so quick to shoot down Christians since it's the dominant religion across the globe.

Forget Christianity and forget the Bible. I'm more interested in how science can invariably prove the existence of a deity by using that same science to show that there are things on this Earth, in the universe, and within ourselves that cannot be scientifically explained. While DNA research is still fairly new, I'm fascinated by the fact that we can find nothing else like it here on Earth or begin to explain its origins.


We couldn't explain a lot of things. There are things that people believed we would never understand. Humans solve problems that have no apparent solution. If you just give up because you don't know the answer you get nowhere. Perhaps science will never solve that problem ("How did something come from nothing?"). It beats sitting around and saying, "I'm tired of thinking...god did it".

There is nothing wrong with saying, "I don't know". Pretending you know when you don't does nothing but feed the ego. Just because we feel there needs to be a purpose to the universe doesn't mean there is one.

[NumberSix]

This is a good read on Creationism for those non-believers who at least have an open mind about the whole thing.

http://www.icr.org/article/105/
Unexplained =/= proof that god did it.

[GimmeThat]

Yes, they are. There are many reasons for it. Ranging from God being petty, not wanting to live in a George Orwell novel, not surrendering your mind to a book, refusing to be told who you can have sex with and how.


so you're fighting the idea of what others are telling you what/who God is and should be like.

you have insulted the bear in which I am dancing with.

[pauk]

Patrick Chewing, i thought you hated religion? Hell i thought you were even a racist.... doesnt make sense....

[Brokenbeat]

Unexplained =/= proof that god did it.

http://i.qkme.me/3ts9ud.jpg

[Patrick Chewing]

Patrick Chewing, i thought you hated religion? Hell i thought you were even a racist.... shit doesnt make sense.... :biggums:


Nein, nein. I'm a Christian and technically a minority in the United States.


A racist? Hardly. I offend equally. I do not like Islam.


I will make it my goal in life to convert you, Pauk. None of this fasting, no TV-watching, no sex for a month bullshit. You and I will eat, shit, f*ck (not each other) all we want. Come to my church, bro.

[Nowitness]

Nein, nein. I'm a Christian and technically a minority in the United States.


A racist? Hardly. I offend equally. I do not like Islam.


I will make it my goal in life to convert you, Pauk. None of this fasting, no TV-watching, no sex for a month bullshit. You and I will eat, shit, f*ck (not each other) all we want. Come to my church, bro.

Because you're part of a different denomination?

[pauk]

Nein, nein. I'm a Christian and technically a minority in the United States.


A racist? Hardly. I offend equally. I do not like Islam.


I will make it my goal in life to convert you, Pauk. None of this fasting, no TV-watching, no sex for a month bullshit. You and I will eat, shit, f*ck (not each other) all we want. Come to my church, bro.

My mother is Christian, father a Muslim....... none of them were so religious, if they were i doubt they would be married... i myself am more agnostic, not a huge fan of any religion... but open to suggestion, proof.... until then i might aswell believe in Santa Clause...

What i believe in:

Peace & Benovelence (no matter what!), be kind, treat others like i want to be treated, take care of planet earth, Kumbaya and all that stuff.... and from there on, just live my life.... and when i die, if God does exist and decides to punish me for that.... then so be it, because i know i lived & behaved better than most of his "true followers"....

[Fawker]

My mother is Christian, father a Muslim....... none of them were so religious, if they were i doubt they would be married... i myself am more agnostic, not a huge fan of any religion... but open to suggestion, proof.... until then i might aswell believe in Santa Clause...

What i believe in:

Peace & Benovelence (no matter what!), be kind, treat others like i want to be treated, take care of planet earth, Kumbaya and all that stuff.... and from there on, just live my life.... and when i die, if God does exist and decides to punish me for that.... then so be it, because i know i lived & behaved better than most of his "true followers"....
:applause:

[fpliii]

My mother is Christian, father a Muslim....... none of them were so religious, if they were i doubt they would be married... i myself am more agnostic, not a huge fan of any religion... but open to suggestion, proof.... until then i might aswell believe in Santa Clause...

What i believe in:

Peace & Benovelence (no matter what!), be kind, treat others like i want to be treated, take care of planet earth, Kumbaya and all that stuff.... and from there on, just live my life.... and when i die, if God does exist and decides to punish me for that.... then so be it, because i know i lived & behaved better than most of his "true followers"....
:applause:

You know, you're alright pauk. I disagree with you at times (blaming Wade for 2011, and exagerrating the possessions in the 60s), but you seem like a good guy with a level head on your shoulders. Good shit. :cheers:

[Patrick Chewing]

Because you're part of a different denomination?


More Roman Catholic than anything, but I don't practice it. I know who I am with God and I'm a sinner just as much as the next guy.

As far as the minority, I was referring to me being Hispanic. Based on my beliefs here, most people probably think I'm a racist redneck from Alabama or some shit with just a middle-school education.

I used to be an atheist/non-believer with the same, "well you can't prove it" attitude. I remember eating at a restaurant and some friends of mine took out a Bible and wanted to have a serious talk with me about God and my belief system. I told them to get that book the hell away from me. Without going into too much detail, it took the death of a close family member to re-ignite my faith in God and Jesus Christ.

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

LMFAO at the dude quoting Einstein.

What kind of wannabe smart guy quotes an accomplished physicist to support their opinions on the infantility of those of Faith. Bro if you want to bolster your atheist agenda get on dat dere David Hume and Voltaire time.

Pauk no wonder I like you. You're the same breed of my childhood friend.

IMO, there's merit to..
Catholics to dislike:
Gluttony - Wastefulness...
Sloth - Actually not laziness.. rather a lack of passion for life.. being a miserable person with a rain cloud on your head havin dat crab in a bucket mentality
Lust - Unwavering desire.... STD's drained fapping
Pride - Hubris..
Wrath - Destructive rage which results in spiraling violence
Greed - Excessive desire at the expense of your brother's well being etc..
Envy - just an ugly trait on any human.. compersion much better.

Christian Agape Love.. Protestant Work Ethic... "Love thy neighbor"... Do as to others... helping orphanages and homeless...

I'm pretty sure Muslims believe in
forbidding alcohol because it fuks up your conscoiusness
forbidding pork because it carries disease in the desert
Ni'ah being the mos timportant facet of starting something.... Intention
Sakinah... the steps to make a peaceful family environment
the healthy medium virtues like transcending fearfulness to have courage but not at the point of recklessness...
some codes involved in protecting the environmnet
slaughtering animals in a way that reduces pain
zakat charity work
shaytan as a symbol of selfishness falsehood and an enemy that creeps up on ya
The force of unwavering faith to conquer your inner demons and such an such.

There's some gems in there. Now which to hold on to and which to forego..

[Brokenbeat]

LMFAO at the dude quoting Einstein.

What kind of wannabe smart guy quotes an accomplished physicist to support their opinions on the infantility of those of Faith. Bro if you want to bolster your atheist agenda get on dat dere David Hume and Voltaire time.



He brought up Einstein, dipshit. I just posted what Einstein himself had to say about god. :cheers:

[ThePhantomCreep]

Irrefutable certainty for creationists:

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/937240/ray-s-banana-o.gif


Friggin' idiot picked a genetically modified, asexual seedless fruit that wouldn't survive without humans to prove the existence of God :facepalm :roll:

The common banana has an intelligent designer--humans.

[GimmeThat]

Friggin' idiot picked a genetically modified, asexual seedless fruit that wouldn't survive without humans to prove the existence of God :facepalm :roll:

The common banana has an intelligent designer--humans.


so we design what we consume?

so God IS selfish and want others to worship

[BrownEye007]

God is real. Heaven and Hell are real.

To look at the world and the universe and convince yourself that it is all there "by chance" is ludicrous.
Pretty sure you're trolling but I hope you don't actually believe this is what atheists believe.

[Dresta]

Well, even if God did create it then it still arose by 'chance' - the chance that God would choose to make the universe, and decide to make it fit to the general scientific principles to which it holds. Unless, of course, you are also declaring the actions of God to be predetermined, in which case he is lacking in free will, and not much of a God at all.

Nor does the acceptance of a God necessitate belief in Heaven or Hell in any way, shape, or form.

[BrownEye007]

Exactly. Who makes us breath? Who make our brain function? To all of the non believers out there, you can't see wind but you believe its there right?
:roll: read this post and can't stop laughing. Not gonna say anymore.

[Penny37]

He brought up Einstein, dipshit. I just posted what Einstein himself had to say about god. :cheers:
Here are some other quotes from Einstein; quotes that came much later on on his life.

[Penny37]

http://www.irreligion.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/god-v-satan.png

I'd prefer it if the devil was real since god is such a dick.
Let me ask you a question.

If there were hundreds of thousands of people committing rape, smashing the heads of babies against rocks as sacrifice, tying the legs of a woman in labor together so that the baby can't come out; wouldn't you do something about it?

Or would you just let it happen?

You have no idea what you're saying. Be educated about a topic before you arrogantly make judgements. Did you ever, even once, stop and think WHY did He kill all those people? Or do you just make snap judgements with no basis whatsoever?

[Penny37]

It is so easy to counter this and say that if the idea of a creator is ludicrous on two levels.

Firstly if everything is cause and effect like believers claim who creator God?

And have you actually looked at this universe? I don't think God would be happy claiming this to be his creation.

Also nice leap going from too coincidental to assuring us heaven and hell are real. Thankfully it is clear you're trolling.
Our brains are limited to the here and now. Time is simply a dimension. God is outside of all of that. He is outside the confines of the laws of this universe. God created time. He is infinite. He always existed.

We know that nothing can come from nothing.
So if there were ever a period in time when nothing was around, then nothing would have been created.
Obviously, that is not the case. So something always had to be in existence. That something is what we call God.

The reason why this world is the way it is is free will. God offers us free will and being the non-perfect creation we are, ultimately make a lot of bad decisions.

[Derka]

So some kid straps a bomb to his chest and blows up a pizza parlor and kills a whole bunch of people because some religious nut told him God will reward him for doing so with 2 bedrooms, 2 baths and 77 virgins right on the oceanfront in Heaven.

Yeah I totally want that to be true.

[Nick Young]

i want god to be true just to see how the hardcore atheists react.
like if god just appears in the sky where everyone can see him and goes 'Yo Atheists, what up. You all damned to hell for eternity unless you convert in the next 48 hours. Peace"

And watch these bitches eat their words and lineup for a baptism at their nearest church.

[robert de niro]

i want god to be true just to see how the hardcore atheists react.
like if god just appears in the sky where everyone can see him and goes 'Yo Atheists, what up. You all damned to hell for eternity unless you convert in the next 48 hours. Peace"

And watch these bitches eat their words and lineup for a baptism at their nearest church.
that would make for a great seth rogen and james franco movie

[RoseCity07]

i want god to be true just to see how the hardcore atheists react.
like if god just appears in the sky where everyone can see him and goes 'Yo Atheists, what up. You all damned to hell for eternity unless you convert in the next 48 hours. Peace"

And watch these bitches eat their words and lineup for a baptism at their nearest church.

If there actually was a god I'm sure most atheists would be like, oh well, okay, I really had no reason to believe in god besides a bunch of dumbasses like Nick Young.

I was thinking about this the other day. I really feel like god would hate people who kiss his/her ass. The people who "worship" god should be the first to suffer.

I was thinking about King Lear the other day and how Shakespeare must have had religious people in mind. It's basically about a King that is too stupid to realize two of his daughters are kissing his ass because they want their inheritance when he steps down. Then the one daughter that doesn't kiss his ass is the one he punishes. In the end, the kiss ass daughters end up treating Lear like sh*t and the daughter he banished is the one that still loves him and tries to care for him.

Is god really too stupid to realize his "followers" only follow because of this promise of being rewarded? It's so fake. Being good because of god is not being good at all.

[GimmeThat]

Well, even if God did create it then it still arose by 'chance' - the chance that God would choose to make the universe, and decide to make it fit to the general scientific principles to which it holds. Unless, of course, you are also declaring the actions of God to be predetermined, in which case he is lacking in free will, and not much of a God at all.

Nor does the acceptance of a God necessitate belief in Heaven or Hell in any way, shape, or form.


you're making it sound like human made babies after they knew how genetics worked

[Nick Young]

If there actually was a god I'm sure most atheists would be like, oh well, okay, I really had no reason to believe in god besides a bunch of dumbasses like Nick Young.

I was thinking about this the other day. I really feel like god would hate people who kiss his/her ass. The people who "worship" god should be the first to suffer.

I was thinking about King Lear the other day and how Shakespeare must have had religious people in mind. It's basically about a King that is too stupid to realize two of his daughters are kissing his ass because they want their inheritance when he steps down. Then the one daughter that doesn't kiss his ass is the one he punishes. In the end, the kiss ass daughters end up treating Lear like sh*t and the daughter he banished is the one that still loves him and tries to care for him.

Is god really too stupid to realize his "followers" only follow because of this promise of being rewarded? It's so fake. Being good because of god is not being good at all.
Dawg, god loves asskickers but also sometimes f*cks with em just for the hell of it, look at Job. God don't give a phuck why you worship, whether its out of fear, guilt or love as long as you bend that damn knee and kiss his feet once the time come.

God just gives no phucks. Wipes his ass with pages of King Lear no doubt

[masonanddixon]

I feel like you need some creator to exist in order to retain any sort of perspective and sanity as a man.

Atheism is a very dark, bleak, blotted out road to take and only becomes worse with age.

[Dresta]

you're making it sound like human made babies after they knew how genetics worked
:biggums:



That just doesn't make any sense bro...

[Nick Young]

people say evolution proves that god dont exist-who's to say that god didnt make his animals and shit with evolution preprogrammed into them? If he is all knowing, surely he'd know things need to adapt to survive, so giving them the ability to evolve with the times is the smartest thing to do. If anything, evolution just proves the existance of god even more.

GOd da bess
http://www.nbaloud.com/userimages/user1195_1174125328.jpg

[RidonKs]

the god debate, at least in terms of "do i want it to be true", comes down to freedom vs security

a) freedom to create your own future and design your own world with limitless potential and possibility

vs

b) security of an all powerful being watching over you and taking care of you and creating a personal connection with you

people want both of these things to be true. and that's why christianity has incorporated "free will" into its doctrine even though technically it doesn't make any sense and contradicts the nature of god.

but in my opinion if at some point in your life you haven't wanted both of these things, you're missing out.

as for what's actually possible, well we all know only the a) is possible and the b) isn't just impossible but it's quite dangerous when people take it too seriously.

[BrownEye007]

I feel like you need some creator to exist in order to retain any sort of perspective and sanity as a man.

Atheism is a very dark, bleak, blotted out road to take and only becomes worse with age.
I've considered myself an atheist since a very young age and my life has only improved as I've gotten older. Granted I'm still only 19 but I just try to make the best of the short time I have here on earth. Plus I don't have to waste my time praying 5 times daily or waking up early every Sunday morning to go to church. Just because you need to believe there's some sort of afterlife to be happy doesn't mean it's the same for everybody. I don't want to die but I don't really fear death as I know exactly what's waiting for me when I die.

[BrownEye007]

people say evolution proves that god dont exist-who's to say that god didnt make his animals and shit with evolution preprogrammed into them? If he is all knowing, surely he'd know things need to adapt to survive, so giving them the ability to evolve with the times is the smartest thing to do. If anything, evolution just proves the existance of god even more.

GOd da bess
http://www.nbaloud.com/userimages/user1195_1174125328.jpg
The only people who say this are idiots like you trying to make the argument for atheism seem simplistic. Evolution does help to explain how the world came to be what it is today but it alone doesn't prove anything one way or the other. you're exactly right in saying if there was a God he could have made evolution himself. Many people of faith have tried to argue just that. Why would God invent evolution though? If he was so great he could just make everything perfect the first time. No need to adapt if you can survive in any conditions. Let me repeat though, Evolution does NOT prove weather God is real or not.

[NumberSix]

The only people who say this are idiots like you trying to make the argument for atheism seem simplistic. Evolution does help to explain how the world came to be what it is today but it alone doesn't prove anything one way or the other. you're exactly right in saying if there was a God he could have made evolution himself. Many people of faith have tried to argue just that. Why would God invent evolution though? If he was so great he could just make everything perfect the first time. No need to adapt if you can survive in any conditions. Let me repeat though, Evolution does NOT prove weather God is real or not.
Maybe God isn't "magic" like you all believe. Perhaps he's just a scientist or a group of scientists. Do our scientists make things "perfect"? No. Things can always be updated. But what if you could make it so that your creations update themselves? That would be brilliant.

[riseagainst]

religion is the opium of the masses.

[Real14]

:roll: read this post and can't stop laughing. Not gonna say anymore.
Truth hurts doesn't it non-believer?

[Brokenbeat]

[QUOTE=Penny37]Here are some other quotes from Einstein; quotes that came much later on on his life.

[Rolando]

I feel bad for Jesus. This guy is misinterpreted by believers and non-believers.

Mohammed probably suffers from the same attribute. But, thankfully Buddha, less so.

What has happened and what we are also currently struggling with, is evolution. Evolution is not only a physical thing, it includes the philosophical world as well.

Since evolution takes for f

[MavsSuperFan]

It'd be cool if God were real and I was guaranteed a spot in heaven as the Bible describes it.
arent you the dude who groped his cousin or *********ed with his cousins panties or something?
You should be rooting against the bible being true.

[MavsSuperFan]

God is real. Heaven and Hell are real.

To look at the world and the universe and convince yourself that it is all there "by chance" is ludicrous.
Its not by chance. Evolution works based on natural selection.

The universe is based on elements created inside stars and the supernova of stars.

there is no evidence to support the existence of god or heaven

[Brokenbeat]

arent you the dude who groped his cousin or *********ed with his cousins panties or something?
You should be rooting against the bible being true.

Cain, Able, and Seth were bangin their sisters, so maybe he'll get a pass. :confusedshrug:

[riseagainst]

Cain, Able, and Seth were bangin their sisters, so maybe he'll get a pass. :confusedshrug:

:roll:

[masonanddixon]

I've considered myself an atheist since a very young age and my life has only improved as I've gotten older. Granted I'm still only 19 but I just try to make the best of the short time I have here on earth. Plus I don't have to waste my time praying 5 times daily or waking up early every Sunday morning to go to church. Just because you need to believe there's some sort of afterlife to be happy doesn't mean it's the same for everybody. I don't want to die but I don't really fear death as I know exactly what's waiting for me when I die.

I was speaking more on the logical extensions of Atheism. If you don't believe in any sort of creator it makes it very difficult to piece together anything in life and it makes any end or purpose ultimately meaningless or without purpose. If there's no consequences or no relation to the decisions in life you make, how can you even truly exist?

[MavsSuperFan]

I'm sure a good amount of the people on this site believe in God and surrender their mind to a religion but are you happy believing it is true?

To Atheists, would you want it to be true if there were evidence?
I am only intimately familiar with Christianity.

I would not want Christianity's version of heaven and hell to be true.

Some of the acts Christianity deems morally acceptable I find abhorrent.
- Slavery, and enslaving people
- raping a woman if you marry her afterwards
- A woman raped inside a city
- turning a woman into a pillar of salt for looking back at a city being destroyed
-Sex with prepubescent girls.
-Killing a child born of your wife that is not yours.
-many crimes (that i consider minor or not crimes at all) that Christianity sees as warranting execution and/or torture.
-etc

Some of the acts Christianity finds morally unacceptable I find abhorrent and/or ridiculous.
- Slaves disobeying the masters
- Sex out of wedlock
- *********ion
- Being gay
- Wearing clothes of 2 different fabrics
- Eating Shellfish
- etc

[Brokenbeat]

I am only intimately family with Christianity.

I would not want Christianity's version of heaven and hell to be true.

Some of the acts Christianity deems morally acceptable I find abhorrent.
- Slavery, and enslaving people
- raping a woman if you marry her afterwards
- A woman raped inside a city
- turning a woman into a pillar of salt for looking back at a city being destroyed
-Sex with prepubescent girls.
-Killing a child born of your wife that is not yours.
-many crimes (that i consider minor or not crimes at all) that Christianity sees as warranting execution and/or torture.
-etc

Some of the acts Christianity finds morally unacceptable I find abhorrent and/or ridiculous.
- Slaves disobeying the masters
- Sex out of wedlock
- *********ion
- Being gay
- Wearing clothes of 2 different fabrics
- Eating Shellfish
- etc

Ahh yeah, Leviticus is a personal favorite of mine. :oldlol: :hammerhead:

[MavsSuperFan]

I was speaking more on the logical extensions of Atheism. If you don't believe in any sort of creator it makes it very difficult to piece together anything in life and it makes any end or purpose ultimately meaningless or without purpose. If there's no consequences or no relation to the decisions in life you make, how can you even truly exist?
The purpose is to be happy, to enjoy life, to take care of the people you care about. Eg. go out get a job, make money, spend it on and with people you love and have fun with them.


If there's no consequences or no relation to the decisions in life you make, how can you even truly exist?

How is there no consequences? if you dont go to work, I will be poor and eventually have nothing to eat and not have the resources to buy pleasurable experiences, Eg. a vacation to Hawaii.

I work because I need resources to live and enjoy life.

[masonanddixon]

The purpose is to be happy, to enjoy life, to take care of the people you care about. Eg. go out get a job, make money, spend it on and with people you love and have fun with them.



How is there no consequences? if you dont go to work, I will be poor and eventually have nothing to eat and not have the resources to buy pleasurable experiences, Eg. a vacation to Hawaii.

I work because I need resources to live and enjoy life.

Well that's a fair point, but unless you have a strong existing set of morals and values to supplement Atheism, it's very easy to degenerate into hedonism. And I have found thats what often happens over time.

But if you don't have anything to tie your actions to, there's nothing to stop you from killing yourself, killing your relatives, being abusive to your children, etc. etc. since there is no belief in anything beyond being nothing more than fertilizer for the earth upon death.

For the record, I am not religious at all. Far more into mysticism. But I do believe in a higher being which created the world at some stage.

[MavsSuperFan]

Well that's a fair point, but unless you have a strong existing set of morals and values to supplement Atheism, it's very easy to degenerate into hedonism. And I have found thats what often happens over time.

But if you don't have anything to tie your actions to, there's nothing to stop you from killing yourself, killing your relatives, being abusive to your children, etc. etc. since there is no believe in anything beyond being fertilizer for the earth upon death.

For the record, I am not religious at all. Far more into mysticism. But I do believe in a higher being which created the world at some stage.


but unless you have a strong existing set of morals and values to supplement Atheism, it's very easy to degenerate into hedonism.
2 points
1. I always find it scary how many christians make the argument "man without the bible why wouldnt people go around robbing, murdering and raping others? If I didnt think I would burn in hell, I would totally be doing that."

I dont believe there is a hell. I dont rape women because I think its wrong to hurt someone like that. I dont murder people because its wrong to end an innocent life for no reason. I dont Steal, because theft is an extremely selfish move. My morality is very basic. I ask how would I feel if someone did that to me or someone I love. If I am ok with it or would think I have done something that warranted that action against someone I love or myself, than it is a moral action to me. If not its immoral to me.

Its not that hard imo to not kill, steal, rape, etc. I dont need to be tricked into thinking I will burn for an eternity to prevent me from doing so or tricked into believing if I am moral I will live in luxury fro an eternity

2. Depending on how you define hedonism, I have no problem with it. If everyone is a consenting adult and everyone is having fun, and if you have the resources to buy what is necessary to support this fun, why stop? If you are hurting someone or doing something against their consent or they are not old enough to consent, then that is clearly wrong.


And I have found thats what often happens over time.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/Europe_belief_in_god.svg/800px-Europe_belief_in_god.svg.png
Percentages of people in European countries who said in 2005 that they "believe there is a God

you will note that many of the advanced European countries have more than 50% of the population saying they dont believe there is a god. Europe has arguably the highest standard of living of any continent on earth.


But if you don't have anything to tie your actions to, there's nothing to stop you from killing yourself, killing your relatives, being abusive to your children, etc. etc. since there is no believe in anything beyond being fertilizer for the earth upon death


stop you from killing yourself,
I believe in assisted suicide. If I am terminally Ill and suffering everyday I will not hesitate to kill my self. Currently I enjoy life so I wont.

Everything else you mentioned has zero appeal to me.


killing your relatives, being abusive to your children
The bible supports abuse against children and killing relatives in many circumstances.

[robert de niro]

people who need the bible to be good are NOT good people

[BrownEye007]

Well that's a fair point, but unless you have a strong existing set of morals and values to supplement Atheism, it's very easy to degenerate into hedonism. And I have found thats what often happens over time.

But if you don't have anything to tie your actions to, there's nothing to stop you from killing yourself, killing your relatives, being abusive to your children, etc. etc. since there is no belief in anything beyond being nothing more than fertilizer for the earth upon death.

For the record, I am not religious at all. Far more into mysticism. But I do believe in a higher being which created the world at some stage.
Man doesn't need religion to be moral. And just because somebodies religious doesn't mean they have good morals. The two just aren't related.

[BrownEye007]

Maybe God isn't "magic" like you all believe. Perhaps he's just a scientist or a group of scientists. Do our scientists make things "perfect"? No. Things can always be updated. But what if you could make it so that your creations update themselves? That would be brilliant.Not what I believe that's what most religious people believe :confusedshrug: And Christians (you know the people that believe in creationism) believe God is all knowing and all powerful so yeah if he was real he could make things perfect. Then again if he was all powerful then yes he could have created evolution which I said in the post you quoted. That's not really my point though. As I said twice in the post you quoted evolution doesn't prove the existence of a God one way or the other which was my point.

[97 bulls]

I am only intimately familiar with Christianity.

I would not want Christianity's version of heaven and hell to be true.

[QUOTE]Some of the acts Christianity deems morally acceptable I find abhorrent.
Im not sure if it was you but I've already refuted these erroneous concepts. Ill do it again. And Id appreciate your opinion on these scriptures.

- Slavery, and enslaving people
Exodus 21:16


- raping a woman if you marry her afterwards
Deuteronomy 22:25-28


- A woman raped inside a city
Can you elaborate?


- turning a woman into a pillar of salt for looking back at a city being destroyed
No. It was due to her disobedience.


-Sex with prepubescent girls.
Id like to see a scripture reference.


-Killing a child born of your wife that is not yours.
Again. Can I see a scripture reference?


-many crimes (that i consider minor or not crimes at all) that Christianity sees as warranting execution and/or torture.
-etc
I don't mean to be flippant, but who are you to say whats right or wrong?


Some of the acts Christianity finds morally unacceptable I find abhorrent and/or ridiculous.
- Slaves disobeying the masters
- Sex out of wedlock
- *********ion
- Being gay
- Wearing clothes of 2 different fabrics
- Eating Shellfish
- etc
It's proven that all things mentioned have dire side effects. Theres a reason God makes rules for us to follow. Its not so much the act, but the consequences that follow.

Ive seen you argue that if you dont follow police instructions, what you get is what you deserve. I don't see a difference in the basic concept. There are consequences for not following directions.

[Micku]

Leave the insults for grade school. I'm trying to explain that it would be a circular and futile argument to keep asking what was before this and who was before that.

Remember Einstein's explanation of the fabric of time? He said that the past, present, and future all exist at the same time. So we cannot get muddled with this. Scientists want you to believe in a big bang, but yet have no explanation for it. Yet, if the universe is as old as they say it is, why is there no evidence of other big bangs of creation?

So I'll look at this from a non-religious perspective and say, since you cannot create something from nothing, then I can firmly believe that something created it and this is the creator, God, whatever you want to call it.

A little bit late to the party, but I want to give my 2cents and clarify some stuff. Tell me if I'm wrong or whatever.

With Einstein's explanation of the fabric of time:

It's mainly about the perception of now or the current time. Time is relative due to location (space). If you know a little about astronomy, you'll know that when you look at the stars and planets out in space, you are looking at the past. When we look at the Sun, we are looking at the Sun from 8 minutes ago in the past. This is because light has a speed limit and it takes a while to reach a location.

So, lets say if bend space and time and go to a planet that is a million light years away from Earth. And then we decided to put a Hubble telescope and look at Earth, we would see Earth a million years ago in the past. That is relativity based upon location.

This occurs even with the space between you and whatever that's in front of you (computer, person, or whatever matter that you can see). You cannot see or be aware of "now", the current time. The reason why is because it takes time to see and process what you are seeing in your brain. So, we have lag. This is the illusion that Einstein was referring to. Everything that you are seeing or hearing is in the past. You see a star in the sky? That's in the past, but it's happening "now" for you. This is what it means to live in the past and present simultaneous. The future is events that haven't happened yet, so we can't see it. However, lets say we have a ship that could go at the speed of light (Mass Effect style). We'll predict where Pluto in its orbit in like 5 hours and then travel there, boom! Say hi to the future (Planet of the Apes yo). Of course this is more complex due to angles and where we are in space.

You can basically look out into space to analysis the age of our universe due to theory of relativity too.

With that said, it is important to classify time. Time is a measurement of events and the duration between events. It is a language we use to measure change. Time is constant because there is always change. Every single thing is in motion. Right down to the subatomic particles. So in other words, as long there is the smallest amount of change, there is time. Something that exist outside of time, is never changing. No motion, no thought, nothing. It is literally doing nothing. You can argue that it is nothing. If it does something, then it exist within time.

tldr; We don't see the present, but we see the past due to relativity of space and time.

Big Bang

1. Since we look into the past while we're looking at into space, we can see crap. We could calculate how old some galaxies are and shit.

2. The Universe is constantly expanding. We know this because of the redshift of distant galaxies. Using some deduction, this implies that the Universe was once dense.

3. If the Universe was once very hot at one point if the Big Bang happened. We should find evidence for it and we did with cosmic microwave background (CMB). CMB is an thermal radiation. The theory predicts that it should exist and it should be visble as microwaves.

So, there's evidence for it and the best explanation due to the evidence. We don't know what happened before Big Bang. We don't know if we will find out. If you believe god did it, then whatever. Maybe. It also could be the god of the gap. We also only know about 5% of the Universe. The rest is dark matter and dark energy. Dark energy could be is what is expanding our Universe. Dark matter contributes to gravity (the reason why we know it's there), but it doesn't interact with photons or any electromagnetic forces. But both of them are known unknowns, lolz. Things we know that we don't know.

Same applies before the Big Bang. Things we know that we don't know. But yeah bro, there are known knowns, and there are known unknowns, but there is also unknowns unknowns. Things we don't know we don't know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2msQwpzatQc

[Nowitness]

I feel like you need some creator to exist in order to retain any sort of perspective and sanity as a man.

Atheism is a very dark, bleak, blotted out road to take and only becomes worse with age.

You sound like Oprah when she said that marveling at nature means you believe in God.

[Nanners]

You sound like Oprah when she said that marveling at nature means you believe in God.

http://bitchspot.jadedragononline.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Creationist5.jpg

[Brokenbeat]

http://bitchspot.jadedragononline.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Creationist5.jpg

Sounds familiar:


Exactly. Who makes us breath? Who make our brain function? To all of the non believers out there, you can't see wind but you believe its there right?


:facepalm :oldlol:

[masonanddixon]

Man doesn't need religion to be moral. And just because somebodies religious doesn't mean they have good morals. The two just aren't related.

Did you not read what I wrote?

I never said religion makes you moral.

I said that atheism leads to a slippery slope.

[masonanddixon]

You sound like Oprah when she said that marveling at nature means you believe in God.

lol wut? I'm not like that ape negress at all.

I'm just looking at these perspectives from behind the lens of a kaleidoscope of logic.

[cuad]

This is a stupid question, OP, with regard to Christianity.

All the people who would go to heaven should say yes. All the people who would go to hell should say no.

[Dresta]

The purpose is to be happy, to enjoy life, to take care of the people you care about. Eg. go out get a job, make money, spend it on and with people you love and have fun with them.

.
You are mistaking your purpose with purpose. You have decided that is the purpose for your own life, but that doesn't make it a universal.

Also, you couldn't really get much more vague than that: 'be happy' 'enjoy life' - these aren't things that one chooses for a start, nor do they have much of a tangible meaning like most of the conventional platitudes of their kind.

I swear the modern obsession with the abstract ideal of 'happiness' (never really something obtainable, mind you) is pretty unhealthy.

[Penny37]

Keep cherry picking, lol:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Examples_of_God_personally_killing_people

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Actions_punishable_by_death_in_the_Old_Testament

http://www.alternet.org/12-craziest-most-awful-things-god-did-old-testament
You have different standards than God does.

You punch a homeless guy -- you get a slap on the wrist.
You punch a teacher -- suspension.
You punch a cop -- jail.
You punch the president of the United States? Something a lot worse.
Now, assuming there is a God, if you offend Him (again let's assume that He does exist), how much more will the punishment be?

God is perfect. He has never done wrong and has no blemish. So anyone on Earth with even the slightest bit of evil in their life is guilty in front of a perfect God.



For all you atheists out there, just think for a minute -- if there was no God and we advance through evolution and survival of the fittest, why is it wrong to murder our neighbour? Or why is it wrong to lie and to cheat and to steal? Who sets the moral standard? Who decides that murdering someone is wrong and it's not a matter of survival of the fittest?

Yeah, the laws of our nations forbid us from murder and whatnot, but how was the Constitution created? Through the Bible. And even if murder was not illegal, I think we would all agree that murder would still be wrong. Why is that the case and why is it not a matter of survival of the fittest?

[BrownEye007]

You have different standards than God does.

You punch a homeless guy -- you get a slap on the wrist.
You punch a teacher -- suspension.
You punch a cop -- jail.
You punch the president of the United States? Something a lot worse.
Now, assuming there is a God, if you offend Him (again let's assume that He does exist), how much more will the punishment be?

God is perfect. He has never done wrong and has no blemish. So anyone on Earth with even the slightest bit of evil in their life is guilty in front of a perfect God.



For all you atheists out there, just think for a minute -- if there was no God and we advance through evolution and survival of the fittest, why is it wrong to murder our neighbour? Or why is it wrong to lie and to cheat and to steal? Who sets the moral standard? Who decides that murdering someone is wrong and it's not a matter of survival of the fittest?

Yeah, the laws of our nations forbid us from murder and whatnot, but how was the Constitution created? Through the Bible. And even if murder was not illegal, I think we would all agree that murder would still be wrong. Why is that the case and why is it not a matter of survival of the fittest?
Man doesn't need religion to be moral. And just because somebodies religious doesn't mean they have good morals. The two just aren't related. And if your only reason for not murdering and raping people is that you believe in God then you're a shitty person.

[BrownEye007]

Did you not read what I wrote?

I never said religion makes you moral.

I said that atheism leads to a slippery slope.
Yeah I did read what you said. It was pretty much about how atheism leads to a slippery slope because atheists can't have morals since they don't believe in a higher power. I do believe my response was warranted.

[MavsSuperFan]

You are mistaking your purpose with purpose. You have decided that is the purpose for your own life, but that doesn't make it a universal.

Also, you couldn't really get much more vague than that: 'be happy' 'enjoy life' - these aren't things that one chooses for a start, nor do they have much of a tangible meaning like most of the conventional platitudes of their kind.

I swear the modern obsession with the abstract ideal of 'happiness' (never really something obtainable, mind you) is pretty unhealthy.
happiness is different for everyone. some people are happiest helping others, some are happy serving god, some are happy partying, some are happy having a family, etc

What is you goal? I hope its not to be miserable.

[MavsSuperFan]

http://bitchspot.jadedragononline.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Creationist5.jpg
LMAO :lol :oldlol: :oldlol: :roll:
Christians.

No wonder the vast majority of advanced science degree holders are atheist/agnostic


One fact that concerns some Christians and elates some atheists is that 93 percent of the members of the National Academy of Sciences, one of the most elite scientific organizations in the United States, do not believe in God.

[MavsSuperFan]

[QUOTE=MavsSuperFan]I am only intimately familiar with Christianity.

I would not want Christianity's version of heaven and hell to be true.


Im not sure if it was you but I've already refuted these erroneous concepts. Ill do it again. And Id appreciate your opinion on these scriptures.

Exodus 21:16


Deuteronomy 22:25-28


Can you elaborate?


No. It was due to her disobedience.


Id like to see a scripture reference.


Again. Can I see a scripture reference?


I don't mean to be flippant, but who are you to say whats right or wrong?


It's proven that all things mentioned have dire side effects. Theres a reason God makes rules for us to follow. Its not so much the act, but the consequences that follow.

Ive seen you argue that if you dont follow police instructions, what you get is what you deserve. I don't see a difference in the basic concept. There are consequences for not following directions.
As I have told you before the bible contradicts itself completely in multiple places. its almost as if it isnt the word of an all knowing omniscient God

“Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper’s possession. -Exodus 21;16

a fine verse but it is contradicted by multiple verses that support slavery as I have posted for you before. I guess God must be a schizo

the bible teaches that if a girl claims to be raped in the field and no one heard her you should trust her as it is reasonable to conclude that she screamed out and wasnt heard. If she claims to have been raped in a city and no one heard her scream, she must be lying about being raped and must have chosen to have sex, because cities and towns are crowded and you would hear the screaming


If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.
the bible supports killing a female rape victim if she was raped in the city
here read it form Deuteronomy 22:23-24
http://books.google.ca/books?id=upCApSwuJP0C&pg=PA170&lpg=PA170&dq=If+within+the+city+a+man+comes+upon+a+maiden+wh o+is+betrothed,+and+has+relations+with+her,+you+sh all+bring+them+both+out+of+the+gate+of+the+city+an d+there+stone+them+to+death:+the+girl+because+she+ did+not+cry+out+for+help+though+she+was+in+the+cit y,+and+the+man+because+he+violated+his+neighbors+w ife.&source=bl&ots=8iy5kLeFnc&sig=G9U9rnF2ysbJ7MC87fJKLrPY71U&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PaAIVLzHEur3iwKA84CQAQ&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=If%20within%20the%20city%20a%20man%20comes%20upo n%20a%20maiden%20who%20is%20betrothed%2C%20and%20h as%20relations%20with%20her%2C%20you%20shall%20bri ng%20them%20both%20out%20of%20the%20gate%20of%20th e%20city%20and%20there%20stone%20them%20to%20death %3A%20the%20girl%20because%20she%20did%20not%20cry %20out%20for%20help%20though%20she%20was%20in%20th e%20city%2C%20and%20the%20man%20because%20he%20vio lated%20his%20neighbors%20wife.&f=false

28 "If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, 29 he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her."
-Deuteronomy 22:28-29

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."
-Deuteronomy 21:10-14
Raping female in a conquered area is cool with god as long as you force them to marry you

They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil. (Judges 5:30)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11)

Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2)

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46)

They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man........Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. (Numbers 31:7,17-18)"

And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. -- Numbers 31:15-17

Because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. -- 2 Samuel 12:14 (punishing a child for a parents sins)

The priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell. And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen. ...
And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people. And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed. -- Numbers 5:21-21, 27-28 (god aborting fetuses because the wife was unfaithful)

Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt. -- Genesis 38:24 (its ok to burn slutty women who get pregnant)

Anyone that doesnt think these particular bible verses dont teach horrific moral lessons are immoral imo. Police instructions (in america) are based on laws passed by democratically elected governments. If cops are in the wrong we have judicial mechanizes to get reparations. The bible was written and/or complied by unelected leaders

[Brokenbeat]

You have different standards than God does.

You punch a homeless guy -- you get a slap on the wrist.
You punch a teacher -- suspension.
You punch a cop -- jail.
You punch the president of the United States? Something a lot worse.
Now, assuming there is a God, if you offend Him (again let's assume that He does exist), how much more will the punishment be?

God is perfect. He has never done wrong and has no blemish. So anyone on Earth with even the slightest bit of evil in their life is guilty in front of a perfect God.



For all you atheists out there, just think for a minute -- if there was no God and we advance through evolution and survival of the fittest, why is it wrong to murder our neighbour? Or why is it wrong to lie and to cheat and to steal? Who sets the moral standard? Who decides that murdering someone is wrong and it's not a matter of survival of the fittest?

Yeah, the laws of our nations forbid us from murder and whatnot, but how was the Constitution created? Through the Bible. And even if murder was not illegal, I think we would all agree that murder would still be wrong. Why is that the case and why is it not a matter of survival of the fittest?

Give this a watch since you clearly have no idea what you're talking about:

Frans de Waal - Moral behavior in animals

http://www.ted.com/talks/frans_de_waal_do_animals_have_morals?language=en



Oh, and stop giving your god credit for shit that was blatantly lifted from other cultures (in this case, from the Egyptian book of the dead). Looks like your god half-assed it too, lol:

http://www.perankhgroup.com/commandments.htm


Transgressions Against Mankind

1. I have not committed murder, neither have I bid any one to slay on my behalf;

2. I have not committed rape, neither have I forced any one to commit fornication;

3. I have not avenged myself, nor have I burned with rage;

4. I have not caused terror, nor have I worked affliction;

5. I have caused none to feel pain, nor have I worked grief;

6. I have done neither harm nor ill, nor I have caused misery;

7. I have done no hurt to man, nor have I wrought harm to beasts;

8. I have made none to weep;

9. I have had no knowledge of evil, neither have I acted wickedly, nor have I wronged the people;

10. I have not stolen, neither have I taken that which does not belong to me, nor that which belongs to another, nor have I taken from the orchards, nor snatched the milk from the mouth of the babe;

11. I have not defrauded, neither I have added to the weight of the balance, nor have I made light the weight in the scales;

12. I have not laid waste the plowed land, nor trampled down the fields;

13. I have not driven the cattle from their pastures, nor have I deprived any of that which was rightfully theirs;

14. I have accused no man falsely, nor have I supported any false accusation;

15. I have spoken no lies, neither have I spoken falsely to the hurt of another;

16. I have never uttered fiery words, nor have I stirred up strife;

17. I have not acted guilefully, neither have I dealt deceitfully, nor spoken to deceive to the hurt another;

18. I have not spoken scornfully, nor have I set my lips in motion against any man;

19. I have not been an eavesdropper;

20. I have not stopped my ears against the words of Right and Truth;

21. I have not judged hastily, nor have I judged harshly;

22. I have committed no crime in the place of Right and Truth;

23. I have caused no wrong to be done to the servant by his master;

24. I have not been angry without cause;

25. I have not turned back water at its springtide, nor stemmed the flow of running water;

26. I have not broken the channel of a running water;

27. I have never fouled the water, nor have I polluted the land.



Sins

28. I have not cursed nor despised God, nor have I done that which God does abominate;

29. I have not vexed or angered God;

30. I have not robbed God, nor have I filched that which has been offered in the temples;

31. I have not added unto nor have I diminished the offerings which are due;

32. I have not purloined the cakes of the gods;

33. I have not carried away the offerings made unto the blessed dead;

34. I have not disregarded the season for the offerings which are appointed;

35. I have not turned away the cattle set apart for sacrifice;

36. I have not thwarted the processions of the god;

37. I have not slaughtered with evil intent the cattle of the god;



Personal Transgressions

38. I have not acted guilefully nor have I acted in insolence;

39. I have not been overly proud, nor have I behaved myself with arrogance;

40. I have never magnified my condition beyond what was fitting;

41. Each day have I labored more than was required of me;

42. My name has not come forth to the boat of the Prince



Now let's see what the founding fathers had to say about religion since you think the constitution was based on (or influenced by) the bible. :facepalm

Thomas Jefferson:


"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this the most venerated reformer of human errors." -- Jefferson's letter to John Adams, April 11 1823

Jefferson was a rationalist. He believed that Jesus was a pure and ethical teacher of morals. To that end, Jefferson took a razor to the New Testament and removed passages he thought to have been inserted by the authors of the gospels (whom he called the "commentators"), and he pasted what remained together as "The Jefferson Bible". With his razor blade, he removed every verse dealing with the virgin birth, miracles, resurrection, claims of Jesus' divinity and other puerile superstition, thus leaving us with a very much shorter book. In 1904, the Jefferson Bible was printed by order of Congress, and for many years was presented to all newly elected members of that body.

Benjamin Franklin:


"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."

"I looked around for God's judgments, but saw no signs of them."


Thomas Paine (this guy nailed it... pun intended):


"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half of the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.

"What is it the New Testament teaches us? To believe that the Almighty committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married; and the belief of this debauchery is called faith."

"Take away from Genesis the belief that Moses was the author, on which only the strange belief that it is the word of God has stood, and there remains nothing of Genesis but an anonymous book of stories, fables, and traditionary or invented absurdities, or of downright lies."

"We do not admit the authority of the church with respect to its pretended infallibility, its manufactured miracles, its setting itself up to forgive sins. It was by propagating that belief and supporting it with fire that she kept up her temporal power."

John Adams:


"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity."

"The question before the human race is, whether the God of Nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?"

"Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1,500 years?"

George Washington:


"Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by the difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be depreciated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society."

James Madison:


"Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."

"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries."


Now pull your head out of your ass, and stop being so willfully ignorant. :cheers:

[~primetime~]

No wonder the vast majority of advanced science degree holders are atheist/agnostic
that's not true

http://www.pewforum.org/files/2009/11/Scientists-and-Belief-2.png

http://www.pewforum.org/2009/11/05/scientists-and-belief/

[MavsSuperFan]

that's not true

http://www.pewforum.org/files/2009/11/Scientists-and-Belief-2.png

http://www.pewforum.org/2009/11/05/scientists-and-belief/
Advanced science degree holders. not guys who teach 8th grade biology

93 percent of the members of the National Academy of Sciences are atheist or agnostic

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file002.html

The question of religious belief among US scientists has been debated since early in the century. Our latest survey finds that, among the top natural scientists, disbelief is greater than ever — almost total.

Research on this topic began with the eminent US psychologist James H. Leuba and his landmark survey of 1914. He found that 58% of 1,000 randomly selected US scientists expressed disbelief or doubt in the existence of God, and that this figure rose to near 70% among the 400 "greater" scientists within his sample [1]. Leuba repeated his survey in somewhat different form 20 years later, and found that these percentages had increased to 67 and 85, respectively [2].

In 1996, we repeated Leuba's 1914 survey and reported our results in Nature [3]. We found little change from 1914 for American scientists generally, with 60.7% expressing disbelief or doubt. This year, we closely imitated the second phase of Leuba's 1914 survey to gauge belief among "greater" scientists, and find the rate of belief lower than ever — a mere 7% of respondents.

Leuba attributed the higher level of disbelief and doubt among "greater" scientists to their "superior knowledge, understanding, and experience" [3]. Similarly, Oxford University scientist Peter Atkins commented on our 1996 survey, "You clearly can be a scientist and have religious beliefs. But I don't think you can be a real scientist in the deepest sense of the word because they are such alien categories of knowledge." [4] Such comments led us to repeat the second phase of Leuba's study for an up-to-date comparison of the religious beliefs of "greater" and "lesser" scientists.

Our chosen group of "greater" scientists were members of the National Academy of Sciences (NAS). Our survey found near universal rejection of the transcendent by NAS natural scientists. Disbelief in God and immortality among NAS biological scientists was 65.2% and 69.0%, respectively, and among NAS physical scientists it was 79.0% and 76.3%. Most of the rest were agnostics on both issues, with few believers. We found the highest percentage of belief among NAS mathematicians (14.3% in God, 15.0% in immortality). Biological scientists had the lowest rate of belief (5.5% in God, 7.1% in immortality), with physicists and astronomers slightly higher (7.5% in God, 7.5% in immortality). Overall comparison figures for the 1914, 1933 and 1998 surveys appear in Table 1.

http://i.imgur.com/Mzrq73v.png

[Brokenbeat]

that's not true

http://www.pewforum.org/files/2009/11/Scientists-and-Belief-2.png

http://www.pewforum.org/2009/11/05/scientists-and-belief/


Indeed, the survey shows that scientists are roughly half as likely as the general public to believe in God or a higher power. According to the poll, just over half of scientists (51%) believe in some form of deity or higher power; specifically, 33% of scientists say they believe in God

That still doesn't exactly help your case, lol.

Adding to what Mavs said, 97% of the Royal Society are also atheist or agnostic.

[BlackWhiteGreen]

I prefer the idea of some incredible creator that has no interest in our lives from an individual standpoint (as a god would) but is interested to see how the universe as a whole plays out. Like, giving different species different abilities/advantages and seeing who eventually wins out, and how technologically advanced they become, etc

All that God shit would just depress me. I don't want to be a slave to sin and worship even if it meant eternity in heaven

[jstern]

I wouldn't want it to be true.

According to lets say Christians, billions of people, billions of good people throughout history who never hurt anyone, were kind and good, are now burning in hell, tortured. And once in hell, seeing reality, if they have a sincere change or heart, an honest acceptance now that they know better, they still have to be torture and burn no for a trillion years, but for eternity. Because how dare you not believe in Christianity while you were on earth.

Doesn't sound like a reasonable, understanding, evolved superior being.

There might be something out there, but it sure as hell isn't some, insecure loving god, who's a hot head and unreasonable. And couldn't care less if what's in your heart is very sincere, it happened to be at the wrong time.

[~primetime~]

Advanced science degree holders. not guys who teach 8th grade biology

93 percent of the members of the National Academy of Sciences are atheist or agnostic

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file002.html


http://i.imgur.com/Mzrq73v.png
I still wouldn't call that the "vast majority"

I'm not religious at all...so I have no bias here

I just don't think it is accurate to portray every scientist as non-religious...there plenty of scientists out there that claim a religion

[Brokenbeat]

I still wouldn't call that the "vast majority"

I'm not religious at all...so I have no bias here

I just don't think it is accurate to portray every scientist as non-religious...there plenty of scientists out there that claim a religion

Nobody said that. :confusedshrug:

[~primetime~]

Nobody said that. :confusedshrug:
not 'every'...but "vast majority" implies what like 95%+ ?

anyway, just wanted to show that there are plenty of scientists that claim a religion.

[MavsSuperFan]

I still wouldn't call that the "vast majority"

I'm not religious at all...so I have no bias here

I just don't think it is accurate to portray every scientist as non-religious...there plenty of scientists out there that claim a religion
i never said scientists, I said advanced science degree holders. that table was from Edward J. Larson Department of History, University of Georgia,

by 1998 only 7% believed in God
72% were atheists
21 % were agnostic

[ThePhantomCreep]

You have different standards than God does.

You punch a homeless guy -- you get a slap on the wrist.
You punch a teacher -- suspension.
You punch a cop -- jail.
You punch the president of the United States? Something a lot worse.
Now, assuming there is a God, if you offend Him (again let's assume that He does exist), how much more will the punishment be?

God is perfect. He has never done wrong and has no blemish. So anyone on Earth with even the slightest bit of evil in their life is guilty in front of a perfect God.



For all you atheists out there, just think for a minute -- if there was no God and we advance through evolution and survival of the fittest, why is it wrong to murder our neighbour? Or why is it wrong to lie and to cheat and to steal? Who sets the moral standard? Who decides that murdering someone is wrong and it's not a matter of survival of the fittest?

Yeah, the laws of our nations forbid us from murder and whatnot, but how was the Constitution created? Through the Bible. And even if murder was not illegal, I think we would all agree that murder would still be wrong. Why is that the case and why is it not a matter of survival of the fittest?

God created the angel who would be Satan. That's a pretty big screwup.

[Brokenbeat]

not 'every'...but "vast majority" implies what like 95%+ ?

anyway, just wanted to show that there are plenty of scientists that claim a religion.

Ok, so maybe not 'every' priest is a child molester, but plenty of them are. I just wanted to show that there's a lot of kiddy-fiddlers running amok in the church. Plenty of them.

Am I doing it right? :D

[boozehound]

not 'every'...but "vast majority" implies what like 95%+ ?

anyway, just wanted to show that there are plenty of scientists that claim a religion.
how in the world does a "vast majority" mean all (statistically speaking)? I agree its a pretty poor term, but it means something like 70%. Again, look at the academy of science numbers. 93% of them are non-believers. that is nowhere near the national numbers. Even what you posted shows that over half (around half?) of "scientists" (whatever that means) are non-believers of one stripe or another. That is way off the general population numbers. as a holder of an advanced science degree, my personal experience is that most of my colleagues are non-believers (or, and this is obscured by the stats, hold nominal membership in a faith because its easier to do that [family, society, etc], than come out and reject the faith you were raised in]). Now, is it 90%? perhaps not, but its well over half IME.

[~primetime~]

how in the world does a "vast majority" mean all (statistically speaking)? I agree its a pretty poor term, but it means something like 70%. Again, look at the academy of science numbers. 93% of them are non-believers. that is nowhere near the national numbers. Even what you posted shows that over half (around half?) of "scientists" (whatever that means) are non-believers of one stripe or another. That is way off the general population numbers. as a holder of an advanced science degree, my personal experience is that most of my colleagues are non-believers (or, and this is obscured by the stats, hold nominal membership in a faith because its easier to do that [family, society, etc], than come out and reject the faith you were raised in]). Now, is it 90%? perhaps not, but its well over half IME.
I already acknowledged that he didn't say "all"

over half? okay

again, was just trying to point out that there are scientists out there who are religious, that's all

[~primetime~]

here is another recent study:

'Religious Understandings Of Science' Study Reveals Surprising Statistics (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/19/religious-understandings-of-science_n_4811085.html)

Many atheist and agnostic scientists think key mysteries about the world can be best understood spiritually, and some attend houses of worship, completely comfortable with religion as moral training for their children and an alternative form of community.

1. Nearly 50% of scientists identify with a religious label.

2. 14% of scientists have some doubts, but believe in God.

3. 9% of scientists have no doubt of God's existence.

4. 14% of elite scientists are Mainline Protestant.

5. 16% of elite scientists are Jewish.

6. Roughly one-fifth of the atheist scientists Ecklund spoke with say they consider themselves "spiritual atheists."

...

[Nanners]

here is another recent study:

'Religious Understandings Of Science' Study Reveals Surprising Statistics (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/19/religious-understandings-of-science_n_4811085.html)



...

that study says it includes social scientists, which are not really scientists in the way that a biologist or chemist is.


Social science is an academic discipline concerned with society and the relationships among individuals within a society. It includes anthropology, economics, political science, psychology and sociology. In a wider sense, it may often include some fields in the humanities[1] such as archaeology, history, law, and linguistics.

[~primetime~]

Pt when you die that's it. Dead. Nothin. Deadddd.

Scared homie?
If I thought that were true I would be scared...yeah

not existing ever again?...this is all I got?...fkc that

Id rather exist in pain than not exist at all

[~primetime~]

that study says it includes social scientists, which are not really scientists in the way that a biologist or chemist is.
they singled out "elite scientists" whatever that means

[RidonKs]

If I thought that were true I would be scared...yeah

not existing ever again?...this is all I got?...fkc that

Id rather exist in pain than not exist at all
if that's the case, you just haven't had to endure intense and long enough lasting pain thus far in your life. had you experienced that, hell were you experiencing that right now, death would be as much of a relief as sleep after a long day.

[~primetime~]

if that's the case, you just haven't had to endure intense and long enough lasting pain thus far in your life. had you experienced that, hell were you experiencing that right now, death would be as much of a relief as sleep after a long day.
true, I would rather not exist than be in intense pain...like burning, etc

I do think I would endure some pretty harsh conditions over not existing though...I'd probably take slavery over not existing

[RidonKs]

true, I would rather not exist than be in intense pain...like burning, etc

I do think I would endure some pretty harsh conditions over not existing though...I'd probably take slavery over not existing
again these are things you haven't experienced in reality for any significant period of time; nor have i. so making a "would you rather" claim is kinda pointless. i see what you're saying and i'd probably agree for myself.... indentured servitude could still be a worthwhile existence. but it's sort of a spit in the face to anybody who has actually lived through it even to suggest it MIGHT be better than death. i don't feel comfortable making that claim.

[~primetime~]

again these are things you haven't experienced in reality for any significant period of time; nor have i. so making a "would you rather" claim is kinda pointless. i see what you're saying and i'd probably agree for myself.... indentured servitude could still be a worthwhile existence. but it's sort of a spit in the face to anybody who has actually lived through it even to suggest it MIGHT be better than death. i don't feel comfortable making that claim.
It's not a spitting in anyone's face IMO

"I think" I would endure harsh conditions over not existing...and many humans have endured harsh conditions over suicide.

you're right I have never been a slave so I don't know for sure...but I do know many slaves could have probably chosen death over slavery and they chose slavery...I don't think I would be any different

[Brokenbeat]

3. 9% of scientists have no doubt of God's existence.



This is the only number we should be looking at. Only 9%?

So 91% of the scientists that participated in that poll have doubts. That's not too far off from the NAS/Royal Society poll results. :confusedshrug:

[RidonKs]

It's not a spitting in anyone's face IMO

"I think" I would endure harsh conditions over not existing...and many humans have endured harsh conditions over suicide.

you're right I have never been a slave so I don't know for sure...but I do know many slaves could have probably chosen death over slavery and they chose slavery...I don't think I would be any different
this is true and a good point

i don't think talking about the point is like offensive or anything, just worthy of some agnosticism

[Godzuki]

no because pretty much all of us would be going to hell. well assuming Christianity were true. even most religious people of today would be going to hell since they've watered down their religion so much from its original tenets.

like religious person mentality these days is do whatever the fukk u want, then if you're caught cry and pray to God that you have sinned, and use the 'God forgives', 'jesus died for our sins' copouts to worm your way into heaven :rolleyes:

and hell sounds like worst case scenario of anything. screw that.

[Micku]

no because pretty much all of us would be going to hell. well assuming Christianity were true. even most religious people of today would be going to hell since they've watered down their religion so much from its original tenets.

like religious person mentality these days is do whatever the fukk u want, then if you're caught cry and pray to God that you have sinned, and use the 'God forgives', 'jesus died for our sins' copouts to worm your way into heaven :rolleyes:

and hell sounds like worst case scenario of anything. screw that.

Well, it doesn't have to be Christianity. It could be Catholic, Islamic, or Mormon. All of their version of God came from Judaism. Judaism version of hell (Gehinnom) is where you get a spanking of your wrong doings like spanking the evil out of you, and then get sent back to God. There is no eternal suffering as oppose to Christianity.

You can basically choose whatever you want to believe and roll your dice with that. They all could be BS tho.

[97 bulls]

[QUOTE=MavsSuperFan][QUOTE=97 bulls]
As I have told you before the bible contradicts itself completely in multiple places. its almost as if it isnt the word of an all knowing omniscient God

[97 bulls]

Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt. -- Genesis 38:24 (its ok to burn slutty women who get pregnant)
Again. Read the whole chapter. She was never burned. And more importantly, it was a story. It in no way shows that God condoned that burning her.


Anyone that doesnt think these particular bible verses dont teach horrific moral lessons are immoral imo. Police instructions (in america) are based on laws passed by democratically elected governments. If cops are in the wrong we have judicial mechanizes to get reparations. The bible was written and/or complied by unelected leaders
Its clear you have nothing but an agenda. The Bible does nothing of the sort. You totally distorted the context of the scriptures you quoted

[Nowitness]

Again. Read the whole chapter. She was never burned. And more importantly, it was a story. It in no way shows that God condoned that burning her.


Its clear you have nothing but an agenda. The Bible does nothing of the sort. You totally distorted the context of the scriptures you quoted

What I'm gathering you're saying is that we must look at the Bible in context to the time it was written/practiced. Isn't one of the very few things religion can apparently claim still to do is stop moral relativism? If so any argument saying religious morality can change based on the times is a negative against religion and more evidence as to why a secular society goes forward, not backwards like a Christian/Muslim one.

[GimmeThat]

I don't know/who cares

but how can you overrate a book/someone so much
yet people have still failed to take down all that it has achieved?

[Nowitness]

I don't know/who cares

but how can you overrate a book/someone so much
yet people have still failed to take down all that it has achieved?

Are you insane? Religion relies on one thing and one thing only, human's inability to understand that those who make the claims need to prove them and not the other way around.

If we lived in a society like that rather than one where the popular opinion can say "prove it doesn't exist" and get away with it way more than like 10% of the world would consider themselves Atheists.

Religious Logic for you:

LeBron: I am holding an apple behind my back.

Kobe: Prove it.

LeBron: Prove I am not holding an apple behind my back.

Kobe: ...

[GimmeThat]

Are you insane? Religion relies on one thing and one thing only, human's inability to understand that those who make the claims need to prove them and not the other way around.

If we lived in a society like that rather than one where the popular opinion can say "prove it doesn't exist" and get away with it way more than like 10% of the world would consider themselves Atheists.

Religious Logic for you:

LeBron: I am holding an apple behind my back.

Kobe: Prove it.

LeBron: Prove I am not holding an apple behind my back.

Kobe: ...


if you can't eat the apple, what good is asking for someone to prove it?

and if you can taste the apple with your eyes blind folded.


is that proof you are eating an apple?
is there proof it's not just some scientifically synthetic object in which tingles your taste buds which triggers the chemistry in your brain to stimulate and remind you that it is an apple that you are tasting?

are you after the taste of an apple
or are you trying to prove something else? that the person is lying to you about what you are tasting?


edit: right on the title though, do you want it to be true?

[BigBoss]

"Lack of trust in other people, creates a need for religion if you cannot rely on people you will in God based on an idea of him that suits your needs"

Truth.

[Nowitness]

if you can't eat the apple, what good is asking for someone to prove it?

and if you can taste the apple with your eyes blind folded.


is that proof you are eating an apple?
is there proof it's not just some scientifically synthetic object in which tingles your taste buds which triggers the chemistry in your brain to stimulate and remind you that it is an apple that you are tasting?

are you after the taste of an apple
or are you trying to prove something else? that the person is lying to you about what you are tasting?


edit: right on the title though, do you want it to be true?

You've just wasted 20 seconds of my time. Not that I am important but still.

You've gone off on a tangent on an example. Better off admitting we don't know then, what you're saying is realms of perception are limitless (or limited, either way the can give credence to the idea of a God/transcendence).

Nice try but again, the question is about Christian/Catholic or even Islamic God, not the unknown (because religion, as you know claims it does).

[GimmeThat]

"Lack of trust in other people, creates a need for religion if you cannot rely on people you will in God based on an idea of him that suits your needs"

Truth.


lack of trust in yourself, creates a reason to humble yourself and rely upon others knowledge and wisdom to find ideas in which that suits your need

having trust in others, singles out those that can not be reached, in which you then believe that there might be a super being out there who have the ability to reach them in ways you can not

[GimmeThat]

You've just wasted 20 seconds of my time. Not that I am important but still.

You've gone off on a tangent on an example. Better off admitting we don't know then, what you're saying is realms of perception are limitless (or limited, either way the can give credence to the idea of a God/transcendence).

Nice try but again, the question is about Christian/Catholic or even Islamic God, not the unknown (because religion, as you know claims it does).


I'm right on subject.

you don't want it to be true.

[Nowitness]

I'm right on subject.

you don't want it to be true.

Assertive; at least all you're doing is trolling on a basketball forum and not killing people like many other nuts like you have done.

And I agree, that is why I consider myself an Antitheist. An Atheist doesn't believe because there is no evidence, which is why Ii created the thread. They still could want it to be true. I however am glad there is no evidence for it outside of stupid semantic games and ****bois like you talking nonsense about realms of perception. I could label all the reason why I am glad religion isn't true, but we both know it will do nothing to change your mind.

[GimmeThat]

Assertive; at least all you're doing is trolling on a basketball forum and not killing people like many other nuts like you have done.

And I agree, that is why I consider myself an Antitheist. An Atheist doesn't believe because there is no evidence, which is why Ii created the thread. They still could want it to be true. I however am glad there is no evidence for it outside of stupid semantic games and ****bois like you talking nonsense about realms of perception. I could label all the reason why I am glad religion isn't true, but we both know it will do nothing to change your mind.


I guess my record of haven't created any threads on ISH on this account is holding up quite well so far.

yes, I am assertive indeed.

[97 bulls]

What I'm gathering you're saying is that we must look at the Bible in context to the time it was written/practiced. Isn't one of the very few things religion can apparently claim still to do is stop moral relativism? If so any argument saying religious morality can change based on the times is a negative against religion and more evidence as to why a secular society goes forward, not backwards like a Christian/Muslim one.
I guess it depends on how you look at it. I can say that we havnt gone forward. If anything, were getting worse. Rampant premarital sex, a me first attitude, disrespectful kids, illegitimate kids, the family structure is broken.

Our societies morals are terrible.

[ThePhantomCreep]

I guess it depends on how you look at it. I can say that we havnt gone forward. If anything, were getting worse. Rampant premarital sex, a me first attitude, disrespectful kids, illegitimate kids, the family structure is broken.

Our societies morals are terrible.

Compare the average lifespan of 1900 vs today, then retract your statement. What good are "wholesome family values" if you're dead by 50?

A me-first attitude vs slavery? Which is the more detrimental of the two?

[BrownEye007]

I guess it depends on how you look at it. I can say that we havnt gone forward. If anything, were getting worse. Rampant premarital sex, a me first attitude, disrespectful kids, illegitimate kids, the family structure is broken.

Our societies morals are terrible.
yeah because premarital sex is just like super immoral :facepalm

[Nowitness]

I guess it depends on how you look at it. I can say that we havnt gone forward. If anything, were getting worse. Rampant premarital sex, a me first attitude, disrespectful kids, illegitimate kids, the family structure is broken.

Our societies morals are terrible.

I will never take any claim about sex seriously. I agree on the me first, but premarital sex? A total human concept. This is why I raised the question, who wants to worship someone who cares about who you have sex with.

I mean hey, if religion allowed contraception you'd see the numbers go down.

As for disrespectful kids, parents should earn respect. Most are bad parents who don't deserve respect. But I would still not respect religious parents who force their faith onto their kids.

The main point was science. You name me an Islamic country that is advanced in any way. I can name many secularist countries.

[DaSeba5]

It would be nice to have a place that's like Heaven when I die where I can be reunited with my loved ones. I don't want there to be nothing. I typically don't believe there's a God, but I'm agnostic. I'm in the middle on this. There's no evidence that there is, and no evidence that there isn't. But I don't use the logic "I don't know, therefore God." I'd rather have facts and science.

I'm a good person. I'm not perfect, but I do a lot of good things, even if they are small, and I don't hurt people. I'd rather not worship a judgmental God. I would feel like a slave to a higher being if everything is predetermined and I'm being judged for every sin I commit. I have control of my own life, and I choose, and was raised, to be a generally good moral person.

[Brokenbeat]

I guess it depends on how you look at it. I can say that we havnt gone forward. If anything, were getting worse. Rampant premarital sex, a me first attitude, disrespectful kids, illegitimate kids, the family structure is broken.

Our societies morals are terrible.


Deuteronomy 21:18-21

“If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.


Leviticus 20:9

For anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother; his blood is upon him.


Matthew 15:4

For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’

So is this the way we should handle it? :hammerhead: :facepalm

[97 bulls]

I will never take any claim about sex seriously. I agree on the me first, but premarital sex? A total human concept. This is why I raised the question, who wants to worship someone who cares about who you have sex with.

I mean hey, if religion allowed contraception you'd see the numbers go down.

As for disrespectful kids, parents should earn respect. Most are bad parents who don't deserve respect. But I would still not respect religious parents who force their faith onto their kids.

The main point was science. You name me an Islamic country that is advanced in any way. I can name many secularist countries.
You're looking at it from a really simplistic view. Its not the premarital sex thats so much a problem as it is the outcome. Kids growing up without their mothrr and father is hurting our country. You're big on science right? Do some research on it.

As far as a parent having to earn their child's respect..... considering that the child's being taken care of, how much more can a parent do? And its this kind of mindset thats eating at the fabric of our society.

Im not arguing whose more technologically advanced. But again theres a drawback. Our kids are fat butterballs that hem and haw when they have to walk across the street to buy a pack of gum. Kids today see going outside to play as punishment for goodness sake. Theyd rather stay in and be on facebook and play video games.

[97 bulls]

So is this the way we should handle it? :hammerhead: :facepalm
Those are extreme cases I would say. The bible also says spare the rod spoil the child. So thats a sign that not all kids back in that day had to die for not doing what their parents told them.

[Brokenbeat]

Those are extreme cases I would say. The bible also says spare the rod spoil the child. So thats a sign that not all kids back in that day had to die for not doing what their parents told them.

Ya think?! Glad some of them were spared, lol. :roll: