If you've seen Team USA players for the first time

[fandarko]

Let's say you don't know who they are, know nothing about their respective status in the NBA.

It's interesting for me, who watches both the NBA and Euroleague, to see how different the players look in these two different settings.

Take the guards, for example. While Team USA still trounce everyone in transition, the paint is still crowded, as are the passing lanes and Kyrie's dribbling sometimes seems as exagerrated, while I feel nothing of the sort watching him in the NBA.

Also, Rose looks far less imposing in FIBA ball. Him, Kyrie and Curry also seem small.

Curry is one of my favourite players and yet, if I had seen him for the first time as a Team USA player, I would think of him as just another trigger happy PG, certainly not as the best shooter in the world.

I would think Davis is by far the best player, together with Faried. Obviously wouldn't notice Drummond or Gay or Cousins.

Also, guys in Team US travel all the time (first step) without the travels being called.

While Team USA is probably the best on the tournament (Spain might be loaded, but they are a far cry behind their 2008 and 2012 edition), I think that this tournament and style of play puts to rest theories about how some of these guys would "destroy the Euroleague" and what not.

Except for Durant and Melo and probably LBJ, can you really see any of these guys dominate team oriented, 40 minute-game, no-isolation basketball?

Don't get me wrong, Curry, Kyrie, Rose (or Lillard for that matter) are the best guards in the world. But the style of play and the rotations in European club basketball is such that it does not favour their style.

Take team Spain also as an example. A guy like Rubio looks completely useless in FIBA ball, while he is a great playmaker and lights out passer in the NBA. On the other hand, Sergio Rodrigez, while great in FIBA ball, is just average in the NBA at best. Navarro and Jasikevicius were also good cases of great players that were phenomenal in FIBA settting but struggled in the NBA.

In such basketball, with far less space, crowded paints, clogged passing lanes, where coaches are gods and where you have to share the ball for 70% of the offense before giving it a go, where transition ball and iso ball are rare, where the best players play 25 minutes/game tops it's very difficult to judge individual capabilities.

While there are players that transcend all that, like Durant, others would see their effectiveness diminished.

What are your thoughts? Bear in mind I'm not Euroleague claiming Euroleague is better than the NBA, but there are valid points to be made about the difference in style and how that would affect the effectiveness of some players.

[Encre92]

I agree. That's why I say this:


NBA finals > NBA playoffs > FIBA torny >>>>> NBA reg season

[SamuraiSWISH]

Let's say you don't know who they are, know nothing about their respective status in the NBA.

It's interesting for me, who watches both the NBA and Euroleague, to see how different the players look in these two different settings.

Take the guards, for example. While Team USA still trounce everyone in transition, the paint is still crowded, as are the passing lanes and Kyrie's dribbling sometimes seems as exagerrated, while I feel nothing of the sort watching him in the NBA.

Also, Rose looks far less imposing in FIBA ball. Him, Kyrie and Curry also seem small.

Curry is one of my favourite players and yet, if I had seen him for the first time as a Team USA player, I would think of him as just another trigger happy PG, certainly not as the best shooter in the world.

I would think Davis is by far the best player, together with Faried. Obviously wouldn't notice Drummond or Gay or Cousins.

Also, guys in Team US travel all the time (first step) without the travels being called.

While Team USA is probably the best on the tournament (Spain might be loaded, but they are a far cry behind their 2008 and 2012 edition), I think that this tournament and style of play puts to rest theories about how some of these guys would "destroy the Euroleague" and what not.

Except for Durant and Melo and probably LBJ, can you really see any of these guys dominate team oriented, 40 minute-game, no-isolation basketball?

Don't get me wrong, Curry, Kyrie, Rose (or Lillard for that matter) are the best guards in the world. But the style of play and the rotations in European club basketball is such that it does not favour their style.

Take team Spain also as an example. A guy like Rubio looks completely useless in FIBA ball, while he is a great playmaker and lights out passer in the NBA. On the other hand, Sergio Rodrigez, while great in FIBA ball, is just average in the NBA at best. Navarro and Jasikevicius were also good cases of great players that were phenomenal in FIBA settting but struggled in the NBA.

In such basketball, with far less space, crowded paints, clogged passing lanes, where coaches are gods and where you have to share the ball for 70% of the offense before giving it a go, where transition ball and iso ball are rare, where the best players play 25 minutes/game tops it's very difficult to judge individual capabilities.

While there are players that transcend all that, like Durant, others would see their effectiveness diminished.

What are your thoughts? Bear in mind I'm not Euroleague claiming Euroleague is better than the NBA, but there are valid points to be made about the difference in style and how that would affect the effectiveness of some players.
Very good post. And I agree with the vast majority of it, apart from the bolded.

"probably LeBron"

Um, what? He was by far our nation's best player in 2008, and especially 2012. Offensively, and defensively.

2012: 13 ppg 6 rpg 6 apg 1 spg 1 bpg
2008: 16 ppg 5 rpg 4 apg 2 spg 1 bpg

FIBA ball is different. More congested lanes due to shorter three point line, more physicality. I enjoy, and co-sign the rest of your post. Only few American NBA superstars had their superstar ability translate to both professional versions of basketball in international competition.

[dubeta]

Honestly I'd be scared as fukk no matter what if I have to play LeBron in international ball

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64gmdA5oDdo

^^^ :eek: :eek: :cry:

[andremiller07]

What are your thoughts? Bear in mind I'm not Euroleague claiming Euroleague is better than the NBA, but there are valid points to be made about the difference in style and how that would affect the effectiveness of some players.
You are one of his many alts but

[oarabbus]

The reason guards seem small is because teams go big in FIBA. There's no defensive 3 so you can camp out in the paint all you like. That's what makes a team like Spain much better than just the names on paper.

Pau and Marc get to camp in the lane and Pau surely plays better next to him, while Ibaka chills on the weak side a few feet from the hoop as long as he wants.. That's a nasty defense and the emphasis on big men completely changes the game.

Cuirry's role isn't to launch 3s like he's capable of, so he doesn't do that. Anthony Davis will probably not be taking as many turnaround jumpers in the NBA season, but in FIBA as a skilled bigman he can play that game. Definitely lots of big differences.

[fandarko]

FIBA ball is different. More congested lanes due to shorter three point line, more physicality. I enjoy, and co-sign the rest of your post. Only few American NBA superstars had their superstar ability translate to both professional versions of basketball in international competition.

There is an even deeper aspect to this, also very interesting.

The development of players for such style of play.

Take the guards for example. All superstar point guards in the NBA are the products of systems favoring their skills, especially in offense. High school, college and the NBA.

In Europe, and that's not something that I like, they develop PGs to be pass-first, there is far less freedom in youth basketball and far more structure than it should be in my opinion.

Guys like Curry, Irving, Lawson, Westbrook, Rose, Burke and other quality guards would probably never become what they currently are, if they were brought up in Europe.

They would probably be considered too small to be scorers and shotmakers and would be developed as pass-first, industrial PGs, no chance in hell to become superstars. In Europe there is no college system for young guys to hone in their skills and jack shots until you mature and they start falling. If you are deemed good, at 19 you go straight to the pros, where they eternalize you on the bench in teams where EVERYONE in the rotation gets to play. Try to earn your minutes then.

I think that dozens of talented guys dissapear every year owing to such a system. Young European players are taught great fundamentals, but what they lack is an opportunity to grow as players until they are 22-24, due to excessive professionalism.

Take Lillard, for example. He needed his years in college to mature an become a superstar guard. Had he been forced to jump in the NBA as a freshman from college, would he had developped in the player he is today. No chance in hell. Well, this happens every year with scores of young talented Europeans.

It wasn't quite like that 20 years ago. There was less athleticism, less money and agent influence, the stakes were lower, teams were allowed a maximum of two foreign players per team. Hence, they were forced to develop domestic young talent on all positions, whilst today you just buy an out-of college American PG for a couple thousand bucks and let him take care about bringing up the ball and playing defence. The emphasis is on winning and not developing talent in both Euroleague and Eurocup teams.

They call it here a "crisis in the production of young players". I can assure you there is an incredible amount of talented kids, but the system is set so as to make most of them fail.

[fandarko]

Cuirry's role isn't to launch 3s like he's capable of, so he doesn't do that. Anthony Davis will probably not be taking as many turnaround jumpers in the NBA season, but in FIBA as a skilled bigman he can play that game. Definitely lots of big differences.

Curry's actually shooting quite a lot, but it's not falling (too early in the season I guess, so it's probably better for him this way).

But as you say, it's not his role. This is exactly how it would look like in Euroleague/Eurocup setting. His role, as that of many of the NBA superstar point guards, would be greatly diminished. Since defense is much tougher for guards (for everyone for that matter) and there is much less space to operate, play for guards is stripped down to key skills - shooting, defense and passing. The latter is also valued differently than in the NBA, as only clean passes to scoring players are counted as assists (if the player puts in down on the floor and makes a two-step lay-in the pass is often not counted as an assist).

As a guard, no matter how good you are, you play 25 minutes max. And that playing time involves much more sharing the ball, less touches and getting benched a couple of times, not because you are bad, but because the other guy gets to play too. That is not very conducive to creating alpha scoring mentality. You get to be a team player or you are out.

I personally prefer a mixed bland of basketball, something like a cross between the NBA playoffs and the Euroleague. The latter is too strict and physical to my taste, since it stopped being a guards' game a long time ago, with the emergence of stretch bigs and 6-9 or 6-10 shooting wings all over the place.

[GimmeThat]

I think this to me shows me that no matter how much scouting is done, it still doesn't matter much until you actually play against someone/another team.

the more one team becomes familiarize with another team, the better they know on how to match up and play. And this sometimes come directly from the players in terms of providing the feedback to their coaches.




veterans.

[ImKobe]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhpVE5Yfvhc

:kobe:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kz87PCuU-LI

[SpanishACB]

(Spain might be loaded, but they are a far cry behind their 2008 and 2012 edition)

I don't know man. Marc is better, Ibaka is better, Rodriguez is muuuch better...




Don't get me wrong, Curry, Kyrie, Rose (or Lillard for that matter) are the best guards in the world.

But they're being outplayed by a few guards in the World Cup, how does that compute?



Sergio Rodrigez, while great in FIBA ball, is just average in the NBA at best.

That's not the case. Rodriguez has become twice the player he was in the NBA whilst playing for Real Madrid, it's his own merit mind, as he learned to shoot. The NBA is a really hard league to get into, if you come from a different country and you don't land in a fitting franchise, it's going to be much harder for you than a kid who grew up in US and went through the NCCA.



Navarro and Jasikevicius were also good cases of great players that were phenomenal in FIBA settting but struggled in the NBA.

That's again selective. Navarro could have easily been Tony Parker (in a totally different playstyle, mind).

[ralph_i_el]

There is an even deeper aspect to this, also very interesting.

The development of players for such style of play.

Take the guards for example. All superstar point guards in the NBA are the products of systems favoring their skills, especially in offense. High school, college and the NBA.

In Europe, and that's not something that I like, they develop PGs to be pass-first, there is far less freedom in youth basketball and far more structure than it should be in my opinion.

Guys like Curry, Irving, Lawson, Westbrook, Rose, Burke and other quality guards would probably never become what they currently are, if they were brought up in Europe.

They would probably be considered too small to be scorers and shotmakers and would be developed as pass-first, industrial PGs, no chance in hell to become superstars. In Europe there is no college system for young guys to hone in their skills and jack shots until you mature and they start falling. If you are deemed good, at 19 you go straight to the pros, where they eternalize you on the bench in teams where EVERYONE in the rotation gets to play. Try to earn your minutes then.

I think that dozens of talented guys dissapear every year owing to such a system. Young European players are taught great fundamentals, but what they lack is an opportunity to grow as players until they are 22-24, due to excessive professionalism.

Take Lillard, for example. He needed his years in college to mature an become a superstar guard. Had he been forced to jump in the NBA as a freshman from college, would he had developped in the player he is today. No chance in hell. Well, this happens every year with scores of young talented Europeans.

It wasn't quite like that 20 years ago. There was less athleticism, less money and agent influence, the stakes were lower, teams were allowed a maximum of two foreign players per team. Hence, they were forced to develop domestic young talent on all positions, whilst today you just buy an out-of college American PG for a couple thousand bucks and let him take care about bringing up the ball and playing defence. The emphasis is on winning and not developing talent in both Euroleague and Eurocup teams.

They call it here a "crisis in the production of young players". I can assure you there is an incredible amount of talented kids, but the system is set so as to make most of them fail.
5 star post *****

[juju151111]

Kyrie Irving is playing great and Curry is just missing shots he normally makes. Maybe it's the ball or that he playing harder on defense.

[sundizz]

I agree, but not to the extent of what you are saying. Players like a Curry would not be worse. Simply the coaching and the conditions he are placed in would be worse. However, this does not equate to take a superstar player out of the Euroleague and put him in the NBA and he should be better given the more stat friendly style of play.

All this tournament really demonstrates is that coaching in other parts of the world needs to improve. The main reason coaches over there do not run more superstar styled offenses is because their simply is a lack of transcendent superstars. In the rare case they have one they dont know how to use them properly.

The Spurs, Celtics, and even Heat all played team basketball to win their chips. Unsuccessful teams play iso ball like love on the wolves or harden on the rockets.

And lets be serious...if u took any of these teams except possibly Spain...they are at best a non playoff level NBA team over a 82 game season with scouting, consistently being played against etc. Even if the NBA had to use Fiba rules it wouldnt change that.

[fandarko]

And lets be serious...if u took any of these teams except possibly Spain...they are at best a non playoff level NBA team over a 82 game season with scouting, consistently being played against etc. Even if the NBA had to use Fiba rules it wouldnt change that.

Sorry, but under FIBA rules, all the major national teams on this tournament plus a few absent are NBA playoff teams and contenders.

This Team USA is stronger than any NBA team, just look at the names.

You mean you honestly believe that under Fiba rules, the Spurs beat Spain in best of seven series? No chance in hell.

Put Turkey against, say, OKC, do you really believe they wouldn't play even?

C-mon.

[Oly BC]

All this tournament really demonstrates is that coaching in other parts of the world needs to improve. The main reason coaches over there do not run more superstar styled offenses is because their simply is a lack of transcendent superstars. In the rare case they have one they dont know how to use them properly.
:eek: :eek: :eek:

[fandarko]

I don't know man. Marc is better, Ibaka is better, Rodriguez is muuuch better...




But they're being outplayed by a few guards in the World Cup, how does that compute?



That's not the case. Rodriguez has become twice the player he was in the NBA whilst playing for Real Madrid, it's his own merit mind, as he learned to shoot. The NBA is a really hard league to get into, if you come from a different country and you don't land in a fitting franchise, it's going to be much harder for you than a kid who grew up in US and went through the NCCA.



That's again selective. Navarro could have easily been Tony Parker (in a totally different playstyle, mind).

I'd say Ibaka doesn't play better, Pau is certainly not better, his brother is, I give you that. All the others are diminished. Navarro is completely washed up, Rudy is not better, Calderon is worse, Rubio non-existent, Reyes is on the brink of retirement. Not a single classic wing (I consider Rudy to be more of a shooting guard), no stretch big (Garbajosa is noticeably absent)... The only new factor is Sergio, but in my opionion he can't make up for what Navarro, Rudy and Pau brought to the table at their respective peaks...

[hawksdogsbraves]

Sorry, but under FIBA rules, all the major national teams on this tournament plus a few absent are NBA playoff teams and contenders.

This Team USA is stronger than any NBA team, just look at the names.

You mean you honestly believe that under Fiba rules, the Spurs beat Spain in best of seven series? No chance in hell.

Put Turkey against, say, OKC, do you really believe they wouldn't play even?

C-mon.

If NBA teams practiced and trained under FIBA rules then yes, they would crush Turkey and every other international team not named Spain. Spain would probably be a playoff team in the East, they have a good front court.


The transition in rules is a big deal for the US players, (and others not used to playing under them). I absolutely believe that guys like Davis, Harden, and Curry would be the best players in Europe if they played there and devoted themselves to that style of play. They're simply that good.

If Davis is playing in Europe, he'd be the best player on the court every single night. Hands down. That would translate to him putting up big numbers once he got used to a different style of play than he's been playing his whole entire life.

[Rooster]

If NBA teams practiced and trained under FIBA rules then yes, they would crush Turkey and every other international team not named Spain. Spain would probably be a playoff team in the East, they have a good front court.


The transition in rules is a big deal for the US players, (and others not used to playing under them). I absolutely believe that guys like Davis, Harden, and Curry would be the best players in Europe if they played there and devoted themselves to that style of play. They're simply that good.

If Davis is playing in Europe, he'd be the best player on the court every single night. Hands down. That would translate to him putting up big numbers once he got used to a different style of play than he's been playing his whole entire life.

This is a no brainer.:no:

There are more Americans named

Euroleague MVPS
Euroleague Final Four MVPs
All Euroleague First and Second Teams
35 Euroleague Greatest Player

Than any nations in Europe.:applause:

[GimmeThat]

5 star post *****

as far as crisis in talent development goes

your best player should be used as your baseline in terms of measurement in achievement/accomplishment/work ethics etc.


Bob Knight was not necessarily spot on with the power of negative thinking

but it is the power of utilizing the best to cover the worst aspect, and in term turns those that are in a better position, lifted into even better positions.


digging deep.

[fandarko]

If NBA teams practiced and trained under FIBA rules then yes, they would crush Turkey and every other international team not named Spain. Spain would probably be a playoff team in the East, they have a good front court.


The transition in rules is a big deal for the US players, (and others not used to playing under them). I absolutely believe that guys like Davis, Harden, and Curry would be the best players in Europe if they played there and devoted themselves to that style of play. They're simply that good.

If Davis is playing in Europe, he'd be the best player on the court every single night. Hands down. That would translate to him putting up big numbers once he got used to a different style of play than he's been playing his whole entire life.

I agree NBA players would be better if training under FIBA rules, but it's not only about the rules. It's a whole different approach, far more team oriented ball sharing. It's difficult to dominate a game where you, as the superstar, get to play 25-30 minutes at most and when you have to share the ball.

Harden might be a phenomenal scorer, but nobody in Europe is letting him have the touches and freedom he has in the NBA. While he would score 20, he wouldn't be nowhere near dominant. The same goes for Rose or Westbrook. Or Curry. No chance in hell you get to dominate in Europe at 6-3 with the frail frame that Curry has, since they wouldn't let him shoot that much.

Davis would be great, but wouldn't be transcendental like Kobe, Durant, Dirk or even Melo, "give me the ball and I'll score in any circumstances". Lebron belongs there too probably, but he would be less effective in offense.

Again, I repeat that I prefer NBA game because it's guard oriented and the playoffs are amazing. Granted, the players are better, but that's the best league in the world. But certain skills and qualities don't translate equally in European basketball.

[Rooster]

Curry's actually shooting quite a lot, but it's not falling (too early in the season I guess, so it's probably better for him this way).

But as you say, it's not his role. This is exactly how it would look like in Euroleague/Eurocup setting. His role, as that of many of the NBA superstar point guards, would be greatly diminished. Since defense is much tougher for guards (for everyone for that matter) and there is much less space to operate, play for guards is stripped down to key skills - shooting, defense and passing. The latter is also valued differently than in the NBA, as only clean passes to scoring players are counted as assists (if the player puts in down on the floor and makes a two-step lay-in the pass is often not counted as an assist).

As a guard, no matter how good you are, you play 25 minutes max. And that playing time involves much more sharing the ball, less touches and getting benched a couple of times, not because you are bad, but because the other guy gets to play too. That is not very conducive to creating alpha scoring mentality. You get to be a team player or you are out.

I personally prefer a mixed bland of basketball, something like a cross between the NBA playoffs and the Euroleague. The latter is too strict and physical to my taste, since it stopped being a guards' game a long time ago, with the emergence of stretch bigs and 6-9 or 6-10 shooting wings all over the place.

You have a point. Look at Tony Parker and Dragic, when they have more freedom, they really showed up. But most Euros are just soft and too unathletic to be a superstar in NBA.

[fandarko]

You have a point. Look at Tony Parker and Dragic, when they have more freedom, they really showed up. But most Euros are just soft and too unathletic to be a superstar in NBA.

These too are not the best example, they did have solid freedom in Europe but they left early.

Dragic is pretty athletic IMO. European players are not soft, the game in Europe is more physical than in the NBA due to clogged lanes and tigher operating space.

As caucasian, they are simply less athletic than African American players, that's a fact. They stand no chance against same-skilled but far more athletic black players.

Every once in a while you have a white player popping up with great athleticism (like the soon to be draftee Mario Hezonja from Croatia or Mikhayliuk from Ukraine), but they are the exception to the rule.

But there is no chance a European player is athletic or physically gifted as LBJ, Westbrook or Durant.

[HurricaneKid]

It has been a huge frustration to me that the games are just so different. I would be in full support of making them more and more similar. I think allowing the defense to set in the lane cuts off way too much and would want FIBA to go to the 3 second or defend a player. The NBA can cave on every thing else.

That way we can have a world game and Champions can compete around the globe.

[GimmeThat]

I agree NBA players would be better if training under FIBA rules, but it's not only about the rules. It's a whole different approach, far more team oriented ball sharing. It's difficult to dominate a game where you, as the superstar, get to play 25-30 minutes at most and when you have to share the ball.

Harden might be a phenomenal scorer, but nobody in Europe is letting him have the touches and freedom he has in the NBA. While he would score 20, he wouldn't be nowhere near dominant. The same goes for Rose or Westbrook. Or Curry. No chance in hell you get to dominate in Europe at 6-3 with the frail frame that Curry has, since they wouldn't let him shoot that much.

Davis would be great, but wouldn't be transcendental like Kobe, Durant, Dirk or even Melo, "give me the ball and I'll score in any circumstances". Lebron belongs there too probably, but he would be less effective in offense.

Again, I repeat that I prefer NBA game because it's guard oriented and the playoffs are amazing. Granted, the players are better, but that's the best league in the world. But certain skills and qualities don't translate equally in European basketball.


I thought Darth Maul did okay in China

I mean, Stephon Marbury.

[Rooster]

These too are not the best example, they did have solid freedom in Europe but they left early.

Dragic is pretty athletic IMO. European players are not soft, the game in Europe is more physical than in the NBA due to clogged lanes and tigher operating space.

As caucasian, they are simply less athletic than African American players, that's a fact. They stand no chance against same-skilled but far more athletic black players.

Every once in a while you have a white player popping up with great athleticism (like the soon to be draftee Mario Hezonja from Croatia or Mikhayliuk from Ukraine), but they are the exception to the rule.

But there is no chance a European player is athletic or physically gifted as LBJ, Westbrook or Durant.

I think Mikhayliuk will play for Kansas. College is the same for a lot of players. Guys like Michael Jordan did not have that freedom. This reminds of UCLA with Ben Howland. He was very strict with his players and his offense was very structured to the bone but as soon as his players left and went to the NBA, they look better individually.

[SpanishACB]

No chance in hell you get to dominate in Europe at 6-3 with the frail frame that Curry has, since they wouldn't let him shoot that much.



They would, if he shot anything remotely close to what Dragic is putting up this euroleague.

It's not about volume of shots, it's about bad shots. Harden takes 4 bad shots and is automatially alowed to shoot his way back in the game, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

You're right though no one in Europe is going to take 15 shots under 50% and remain on the pitch. The only reason it happens in the NBA is star treatment, which is incredibly important in the survival of the league (player fans don't even exists in europe if compared to the US; people support teams)

[Rooster]

It has been a huge frustration to me that the games are just so different. I would be in full support of making them more and more similar. I think allowing the defense to set in the lane cuts off way too much and would want FIBA to go to the 3 second or defend a player. The NBA can cave on every thing else.

That way we can have a world game and Champions can compete around the globe.

If you want FIBA to get rid of amateur rules and follow NBA rules, Europeans will object to that. It's bad enough that they have slim to none chance of winning, you talking about playing a game of their lives to win under FIBA rules, to getting massacred and ambushed from the get go.

[SpanishACB]

If you want FIBA to get rid of amateur rules and follow NBA rules, Europeans will object to that. It's bad enough that they have slim to none chance of winning, you talking about playing a game of their lives to win under FIBA rules, to getting massacred and ambushed from the get go.

can we stop using the amateur rules term?

If anything, removing rules to make it easier for players to attack and to travel should be called amateurizing the rules.

It's like changing the rules of soccer so you can only pass forward and remove the goals so you only have to run fast. USA would finally stand a chance, but don't call a different approach to sport ruling amateur when it's much more pure to the sport. Only sports in America get their rules tweaked with the only purpose of improving TV ratings, like keeping a 40% volume scorer on the field while he jacks up contested 3s and turns it over.

[Rooster]

They would, if he shot anything remotely close to what Dragic is putting up this euroleague.

It's not about volume of shots, it's about bad shots. Harden takes 4 bad shots and is automatially alowed to shoot his way back in the game, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

You're right though no one in Europe is going to take 15 shots under 50% and remain on the pitch. The only reason it happens in the NBA is star treatment, which is incredibly important in the survival of the league (player fans don't even exists in europe if compared to the US; people support teams)

:facepalm :facepalm . There is no star player in Euroleague, only few prospects and role players among hundreds of no hopers.:oldlol:

[SpanishACB]

:facepalm :facepalm . There is no star player in Euroleague, only few prospects and role players among hundreds of no hopers.:oldlol:

What's a star player? Harden? Curry? Faried?

[Rooster]

can we stop using the amateur rules term?

If anything, removing rules to make it easier for players to attack and to travel should be called amateurizing the rules.

It's like changing the rules of soccer so you can only pass forward and remove the goals so you only have to run fast. USA would finally stand a chance, but don't call a different approach to sport ruling amateur when it's much more pure to the sport. Only sports in America get their rules tweaked with the only purpose of improving TV ratings, like keeping a 40% volume scorer on the field while he jacks up contested 3s and turns it over.

Actually it does not even matter, we won 56 games in row, 41 official game by average of 30 points. Spain is our bridesmaids when we send our best players like Olympics.:cheers:

[Rooster]

What's a star player? Harden? Curry? Faried?

They are absolutely better than Rudy, Sergio and Felipe Reyes.

[Frozen1]

Um, what? He was by far our nation's best player in 2008, and especially 2012. Offensively, and defensively.



LOL @ this guy. Delusional brainwashed lebron stan. Kobe and Wade say hi.

[SpanishACB]

They are absolutely better than Rudy, Sergio and Felipe Reyes.

you're like the opposite version of the user Euroleague

but not in a good way

[Rooster]

you're like the opposite version of the user Euroleague

but not in a good way

Thanks for the compliment. :applause: Sorry to cockblocked you but its like naming Justin Doellman:facepalm as Spanish ACB MVP:roll: Obscure college player from mid major who average 10 ppg. Weak league.:facepalm

[SpanishACB]

Thanks for the compliment. :applause: Sorry to cockblocked you but its like naming Justin Doellman:facepalm as Spanish ACB MVP:roll: Obscure college player from mid major who average 10 ppg. Weak league.:facepalm

you're having a conversation with yourself there buddy, I merely asked a simple question and you were unable to deliver.

If you feel accomplished thinking you're trolling someone, by all means continue having this debate with yourself.

[fandarko]

They are absolutely better than Rudy, Sergio and Felipe Reyes.

I agree they are better players, but put them in FIBA only environment for year and then we can talk.

Faried is 13/9/2 in 28 minutes at best, nowhere near a star.

Harden is is 19/4/4 in 27 minutes, a borderline.

Curry is 16/7 tops in 29 minutes, borderline star.

And this is not in powerhouses such as Barcelona and Real, doubt they would average that in such systems where 12 guys get to play.

What is a "star" in Europe? Manu wasn't a star before he left for the NBA, Parker wasn't either. Dirk either. Kirilenko was the closest to that definition.

It's a different, team oriented concept. Great players maybe, but not stars in the NBA sense.

You put Harden in the Euroleague without prior knowledge of who he is and while he would certainly be good (see ideal case scenario stats above), he would be nowhere near a star, unless he leads a team to the Euroleague title.

I doubt it in view of his style of play and skillset. He would have to play a stacked team. But then again, he wouldn't have enough touches to put up big numbers then.

Curry even less, no space for shooting like he does, no space for fancy dribbles, 25 minutes per night at most.

Put them in the NBA setting and they are superstars.

Both environments and rules set are legit, it's just the way it is.

The best European players play in the NBA, no wonder there are no stars.

[fandarko]

Thanks for the compliment. :applause: Sorry to cockblocked you but its like naming Justin Doellman:facepalm as Spanish ACB MVP:roll: Obscure college player from mid major who average 10 ppg. Weak league.:facepalm

Well, max player Chandler Parsons averaged 10 ppg during the last lockout in a never-heard-about French Team. The same with Ty Lawson in Lithuania. Deron Williams was trash in Turkey and in the third-rate Eurocup competition, except for that one game. But remember - he actually had star treatment, while looking completely ordinary.

[oarabbus]

It has been a huge frustration to me that the games are just so different. I would be in full support of making them more and more similar. I think allowing the defense to set in the lane cuts off way too much and would want FIBA to go to the 3 second or defend a player. The NBA can cave on every thing else.

That way we can have a world game and Champions can compete around the globe.


Nah man no way. Do you play 3 seconds when you play pickup ball? No way FIBA implements a 3 seconds, honestly it doesn't make sense. MAYBE a 5 seconds in the paint rule would be alright.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I think you are overstating things a bit. Not sure what your general point is, either TBH.

The FIBA rules are adjustable, only major difference is the countries' continuity. Team USA hasn't practiced or taken international play serious until 2008. Since, they've been undefeated. You ask why the games are close? Once again, lack of team chemistry and practice. Most of these guys are dedicated to their pro league where they get paid millions, while concerned with THEIR franchises' success.

Culture obviously plays a HUGE part in this.

[chips93]

LOL @ this guy. Delusional brainwashed lebron stan. Kobe and Wade say hi.

:roll: i doubt samuraiswish has ever been accused of being a lebron stan, and i doubt it ever happens again :roll:

[Rooster]

I agree they are better players, but put them in FIBA only environment for year and then we can talk.

Faried is 13/9/2 in 28 minutes at best, nowhere near a star.

Harden is is 19/4/4 in 27 minutes, a borderline.

Curry is 16/7 tops in 29 minutes, borderline star.

And this is not in powerhouses such as Barcelona and Real, doubt they would average that in such systems where 12 guys get to play.

What is a "star" in Europe? Manu wasn't a star before he left for the NBA, Parker wasn't either. Dirk either. Kirilenko was the closest to that definition.

It's a different, team oriented concept. Great players maybe, but not stars in the NBA sense.

You put Harden in the Euroleague without prior knowledge of who he is and while he would certainly be good (see ideal case scenario stats above), he would be nowhere near a star, unless he leads a team to the Euroleague title.

I doubt it in view of his style of play and skillset. He would have to play a stacked team. But then again, he wouldn't have enough touches to put up big numbers then.

Curry even less, no space for shooting like he does, no space for fancy dribbles, 25 minutes per night at most.

Put them in the NBA setting and they are superstars.

Both environments and rules set are legit, it's just the way it is.

The best European players play in the NBA, no wonder there are no stars.

Do I have to remind you that there are more Americans that are named

Euroleague MVP, Final Four MVP, All Euroleague First and Second team than any nation in Europe. And these guys were scrubs, rejects, never were, has beens and role players at best.

Anthony Parker 5 years of Euroleague
3 Euroleague titles
2 Euroleague MVPs
1 Final four MVPs
Named to Euroleague All Decade team
Named to Euroleague 35 Greatest Players.:roll:

Of course numbers will be down if you play less minutes together with players as good as you in a great team. Even Michael Jordan number was down when he played with Dream Team.

[Rooster]

Well, max player Chandler Parsons averaged 10 ppg during the last lockout in a never-heard-about French Team. The same with Ty Lawson in Lithuania. Deron Williams was trash in Turkey and in the third-rate Eurocup competition, except for that one game. But remember - he actually had star treatment, while looking completely ordinary.

Deron Williams jersey was retired after playing for a month with them. :oldlol: That's is extraordinary and unusual . Ariza looks like a scrub at UCLA while Ed O Bannon was a superstar. But does it matter now. :no: what you did at your peak at the highest level is more important.

[oarabbus]

LOL @ this guy. Delusional brainwashed lebron stan. Kobe and Wade say hi.


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


You aint from round these parts are yeh?

[hawksdogsbraves]

Do I have to remind you that there are more Americans that are named

Euroleague MVP, Final Four MVP, All Euroleague First and Second team than any nation in Europe. And these guys were scrubs, rejects, never were, has beens and role players at best.

Anthony Parker 5 years of Euroleague
3 Euroleague titles
2 Euroleague MVPs
1 Final four MVPs
Named to Euroleague All Decade team
Named to Euroleague 35 Greatest Players.:roll:

Of course numbers will be down if you play less minutes together with players as good as you in a great team. Even Michael Jordan number was down when he played with Dream Team.

This is why it's so absurd that these guys are saying that American players wouldn't be stars in Euroleague. Give Curry or Harden a year or two to get used to the pace and rules over there and they'd be winning Euroleague titles and MVP's every year. They're twice the player Anthony Parker ever was and he tore the league up.

[Akhenaten]

I agree they are better players, but put them in FIBA only environment for year and then we can talk.

You say this but then go on to make affirmative statements speculating what these guys would avg based on 3-4 games in a tournament?

So far through 3 games these are the leading scorers in the tourney;

Pau Gasol 23.7
Scola 22.8
Barea 22.5
Blatche :oldlol: 22
Francisco Garcia :lol 21

What do they all have in common? All are middling NBA players who happen to be by far the best scorers on their respective teams (in this tourney). You cant make any extrapolation about what team usa guys would avg in Euroleague based on their numbers playing next to nothing but other All NBA/all-star talent.

JJ Barea isnt avg 23 points on team usa.

Steph Curry on Spain's team is putting up much more impressive numbers.
Anthony Davis on Argentina is putting up monster stats.

You keep talking about style of play as the reason for diminshed stats but no mention at all about how loaded the US is?


Faried is 13/9/2 in 28 minutes at best, nowhere near a star.

Harden is is 19/4/4 in 27 minutes, a borderline.

Curry is 16/7 tops in 29 minutes, borderline star.

This based on three games vs scrub teams playing limited mins on a LOADED roster?

So what praytell would Blatche avg :rolleyes:


And this is not in powerhouses such as Barcelona and Real, doubt they would average that in such systems where 12 guys get to play.

no crap genius, less minutes and more depth equals less stats. So if Barcelona and Real are "powerhouses" then what do you call Team USA :biggums:

You can prognosticate their stats diminishing on powerhouse teams, but dont or cant see that their diminished production through 3 games in a tourney is BECAUSE THEY ARE ON A POWERHOUSE TEAM?

and then use that lack of production to foretell their lesser numbers on a much INFERIOR (especially when compared to the team USA Roster) Euroleague team?


Curry doesn't even start on this team, what team in Euroleague isn't starting Steph Curry. Get out of here with this corny nonsense man.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

^In all my years of ISH, I don't think I've seen someone post such a great rebuttal. And the kicker? All of it is common sense. Good post

[inclinerator]

every1 is just trying to not step on each other's toes, give each of the players their own team and watch them dominate

[fandarko]

Deron Williams jersey was retired after playing for a month with them. :oldlol: That's is extraordinary and unusual . Ariza looks like a scrub at UCLA while Ed O Bannon was a superstar. But does it matter now. :no: what you did at your peak at the highest level is more important.

His jersey was retired for marketing reasons, but all but one crazy game, he was just average to ok and he played in a third rate European competition (Eurocup). He was a great PG in the NBA, but he surely didn't play like a superstar in Turkey.

[fandarko]

You can prognosticate their stats diminishing on powerhouse teams, but dont or cant see that their diminished production through 3 games in a tourney is BECAUSE THEY ARE ON A POWERHOUSE TEAM?

and then use that lack of production to foretell their lesser numbers on a much INFERIOR (especially when compared to the team USA Roster) Euroleague team?


Curry doesn't even start on this team, what team in Euroleague isn't starting Steph Curry. Get out of here with this corny nonsense man.

I wasn't trying to make a point that Curry or Harden would not be stellar in Euroleague (note, this is the World Cup and not the Euroleague, a clubs competition) on the basis of their current play for Team USA, I could have made that argument without watching them play in Spain.

I said they would be less effective due to different rules, different style of play, different rotations, team oriented play, less space to operate, bigger opponents, no star treatment, etc.

It's simple really. FIBA games are 40 minutes, 8 less than in the NBA.
Euroleague (or Eurocup) teams, if they are any good, have a 10-player rotation, at least. The best players get between 25 and 30 minutes tops. Top scorers average between 13 and 17 points per game.

It's not because they cannot score 25, it's because the game is such that this is not emphasized. Marketing is different, fan base is different.

Hence I tell you that every NBA player not named Durant, Lebron, peak Kobe or Carmelo would have a world of trouble to score more than 20 per game.

It's complicated, put a lesser player in his ideal setting and he will flourish. Put the better player in an uncomfortable situation and he will be no good.

If you ask me, I prefer the NBA version of Curry and Kirye and Harden, they make basketball watchable, not Keith Langford in the Euroleague. And I'm European, for the record.

[SpanishACB]

This is why it's so absurd that these guys are saying that American players wouldn't be stars in Euroleague. Give Curry or Harden a year or two to get used to the pace and rules over there and they'd be winning Euroleague titles and MVP's every year.

So why is Rubio making quite a living out of playing in the NBA (about to sign big money) and Navarro and Rodriguez struggled until they left?

Skills only bring you so far when you come from overseas. The franchise, the coach, the player's mind, I think that plays a bigger role specially when you're starting.

[Rooster]

I wasn't trying to make a point that Curry or Harden would not be stellar in Euroleague (note, this is the World Cup and not the Euroleague, a clubs competition) on the basis of their current play for Team USA, I could have made that argument without watching them play in Spain.

I said they would be less effective due to different rules, different style of play, different rotations, team oriented play, less space to operate, bigger opponents, no star treatment, etc.

It's simple really. FIBA games are 40 minutes, 8 less than in the NBA.
Euroleague (or Eurocup) teams, if they are any good, have a 10-player rotation, at least. The best players get between 25 and 30 minutes tops. Top scorers average between 13 and 17 points per game.

It's not because they cannot score 25, it's because the game is such that this is not emphasized. Marketing is different, fan base is different.

Hence I tell you that every NBA player not named Durant, Lebron, peak Kobe or Carmelo would have a world of trouble to score more than 20 per game.

It's complicated, put a lesser player in his ideal setting and he will flourish. Put the better player in an uncomfortable situation and he will be no good.

If you ask me, I prefer the NBA version of Curry and Kirye and Harden, they make basketball watchable, not Keith Langford in the Euroleague. And I'm European, for the record.

Bunch of baloney. :facepalm :facepalm Kleiza and Childress average 17 ppg and 15 ppg when they led Olympiakos to Euroleague Final. These two don't even have the offensive repertoire of Harden and Curry. Weems averaged 13.5 ppg with loaded CSKA and he is not even a scorer.

[Dr.J4ever]

So why is Rubio making quite a living out of playing in the NBA (about to sign big money) and Navarro and Rodriguez struggled until they left?

Skills only bring you so far when you come from overseas. The franchise, the coach, the player's mind, I think that plays a bigger role specially when you're starting.

Rodriguez struggled in the NBA, but not Navarro. I saw quite a bit of his games in Memphis, and he did alright. Had he stayed longer, he could have become a good NBA player.

[Dr.J4ever]

OP takes it a little too far. Harden, and Curry and Davis would be absolute superstars in the EL, but they would do it with lesser numbers.

Even today, there are superstars in the EL. Guys like Vspan are considered superstars, and he does it averaging 15/5 something like that. So I don't know what the whole point of the thread is other than to say that Americans playing in less minutes, playing in team first structures, and with a spread the wealth mentality would average less ppg, less apg, and maybe less rpg.

Pretty common sense.

[Akhenaten]

Bunch of baloney. :facepalm :facepalm Kleiza and Childress average 17 ppg and 15 ppg when they led Olympiakos to Euroleague Final. These two don't even have the offensive repertoire of Harden and Curry. Weems averaged 13.5 ppg with loaded CSKA and he is not even a scorer.

http://abload.de/img/denzel-boomuzerl.gif

[Oly BC]

Bunch of baloney. :facepalm :facepalm Kleiza and Childress average 17 ppg and 15 ppg when they led Olympiakos to Euroleague Final. These two don't even have the offensive repertoire of Harden and Curry. Weems averaged 13.5 ppg with loaded CSKA and he is not even a scorer.
Harden and Curry do one thing each.
You mean Kleiza and Childress do half a thing each?


I wouldn't disagree about Childress, god, he was bad.
Kleiza was really good a few years back though.

[ralph_i_el]

I wasn't trying to make a point that Curry or Harden would not be stellar in Euroleague (note, this is the World Cup and not the Euroleague, a clubs competition) on the basis of their current play for Team USA, I could have made that argument without watching them play in Spain.

I said they would be less effective due to different rules, different style of play, different rotations, team oriented play, less space to operate, bigger opponents, no star treatment, etc.

It's simple really. FIBA games are 40 minutes, 8 less than in the NBA.
Euroleague (or Eurocup) teams, if they are any good, have a 10-player rotation, at least. The best players get between 25 and 30 minutes tops. Top scorers average between 13 and 17 points per game.

It's not because they cannot score 25, it's because the game is such that this is not emphasized. Marketing is different, fan base is different.

Hence I tell you that every NBA player not named Durant, Lebron, peak Kobe or Carmelo would have a world of trouble to score more than 20 per game.

It's complicated, put a lesser player in his ideal setting and he will flourish. Put the better player in an uncomfortable situation and he will be no good.

If you ask me, I prefer the NBA version of Curry and Kirye and Harden, they make basketball watchable, not Keith Langford in the Euroleague. And I'm European, for the record.

I think Curry's game translates well to euroleague on O. Great coming off screens with and without the ball. Those short 3's are pretty automatic for him. He has experience playing off the ball. The problem is he'd be constantly pancaked on screens in the euro game playing D.

I think everyone accepts that stars are going to put up less stats in euroleague, because they'll play less minutes and at a slower pace generally.

[Rooster]

Harden and Curry do one thing each.
You mean Kleiza and Childress do half a thing each?


I wouldn't disagree about Childress, god, he was bad.
Kleiza was really good a few years back though.

Josh Childress average 15 points in 52% with 5 rebounds 2 assist and 1 steal while being named All-Euroleague Second Team (2010):roll:
Greek Cup champion (2010):roll:
Greek League Top Scorer (2010):roll:
Greek League Best Five Team (2010):roll:
Greek League All-Star (2010):roll:

Bourosis has been pumping steroids throughout his career and he can't even top that.:roll: