Is jordan reall manufactured??

[NZStreetBaller]

I just watched these two videos and its really got me convinced. especially when it says that it is a sin to deny jordan as the GOAT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9M-KCulzJqg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmlfiMDUTQ4

I mean i honestly wouldnt be suprised if i got banned if i deared to say MJ wasnt god.

[SouBeachTalents]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-8bZrXJD84ts/USZEoL_nxkI/AAAAAAAABKw/Mx-n9JEZdLU/s1600/MJs+Trophies.png

[Foster5k]

Jordan's stats and accolades speak for themselves. 6/6 in the NBA Finals with six NBA Final MVPs. Five times NBA most valuable player. Arguably the best to ever play the game. Pretty much the clear cut G.O.A.T. Played in a tougher era where defenses were way more physical.

Would average 40-45 PPG in today's NBA.

[Warfan]

Yes. Without all the manufacturing and hype he's just a bald Dominique Wilkins.

[Smook A.]

Simple Answer: No

[Marchesk]

Yes. Without all the manufacturing and hype he's just a bald Dominique Wilkins.

What did Wilkins average in the finals?

[SouBeachTalents]

What did Wilkins average in the finals?

Who cares, he NEVER lost in the Finals. That's the most important thing

[Marchesk]

Who cares, he NEVER lost in the Finals. That's the most important thing

:lol

Neither has Carmelo.

[SouBeachTalents]

:lol

Neither has Carmelo.

Exactly. Carmelo > that 2/5 loser LeBron

[Marchesk]

Exactly. Carmelo > that 2/5 loser LeBron

Anthony > Lebron > Wilt > West > Dr J > Malone > Barkley

[SouBeachTalents]

Anthony > Lebron > Wilt > West > Dr J > Malone > Barkley

You forgot to include Russell, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Hakeem, Shaq, and Kobe. All pathetic choke artists who lost in the Finals

[Warfan]

What did Wilkins average in the finals?

You're kidding, right?

[Marchesk]

You're kidding, right?

I'm sure those Hawks teams must have made it out of the weak East in the 80s. :coleman:

[mehyaM24]

i wouldn't say manufactured, just not the "greatest".

you're not "GOAT status" being 1-9 in the playoffs to start your career (and definitely not while playing in the expansion era with no super teams except the the team YOU play for). his running mate, pippen, was the leader, best playmaker, defender, and rebounder yet jordan is supposed to be goat? nah. not buying it.

i have jordan in my top 5. russell and kareem (inc collegiate career) both have better cases, imo.

[Warfan]

I'm sure those Hawks teams must have made it out of the weak East in the 80s. :coleman:

Replace Mj with Nique on the 80's Bulls, I think they make it out if the East twice and win it at least once. Srs

[Cali Syndicate]

Replace Mj with Nique on the 80's Bulls, I think they make it out if the East twice and win it at least once. Srs

MJ never won in the 80's but you think Nique would?

[NZStreetBaller]

Jordan's stats and accolades speak for themselves. 6/6 in the NBA Finals with six NBA Final MVPs. Five times NBA most valuable player. Arguably the best to ever play the game. Pretty much the clear cut G.O.A.T. Played in a tougher era where defenses were way more physical.

Would average 40-45 PPG in today's NBA.

Dude did u even watch the videos it tries to prove that the titles were only won because he was rigged.

[NZStreetBaller]

It never stated that he was a bad player but the 6 championships were won by rigging games in his favour.

Isnt it odd that he went from being a playoff loser to winning constant championships.... and every one says yeah because of scottie pippen. I think he was only part of the help. one player isnt gonna change you from first round knockouts to instant three peat alone.

Then when he returns from retirement. gains rodman, FG% decreases but free throw opportunity increases......

[Warfan]

Since when did people on ISH of all places forget what sarcasm is? :oldlol:

[Warfan]

It never stated that he was a bad player but the 6 championships were won by rigging games in his favour.

Isnt it odd that he went from being a playoff loser to winning constant championships.... and every one says yeah because of scottie pippen. I think he was only part of the help. one player isnt gonna change you from first round knockouts to instant three peat alone.

Then when he returns from retirement. gains rodman, FG% decreases but free throw opportunity increases......

See, now this is obviously sarcasm. Either that or you have downs.

[SouBeachTalents]

See, now this is obviously sarcasm. Either that or you have downs.

Nope, Jordan owes all 6 of his titles to the refs

[NZStreetBaller]

See, now this is obviously sarcasm. Either that or you have downs.

exactly what the video states......... anyone who opposes jordans immortality is considered crazy. Because you've been lead to believe that he is untouchable. and he is. not because he was unbelievably good at basketball but because he had everything on his size. everybody benefited financially from jordans success. people will do anything for money. they have all the motive in the world to help him build an unstoppable image.

[NZStreetBaller]

Yes jordan was a great player but the biggest thing he has to his name is 6/6. if he was never assisted with these titles he would just be some empty stats guy.

[dubeta]

srly can you imagine the numbers lebron would put up in the 80's?

:eek:


35/10/7 would be a bad night for him


brb fapping to the thought

[Marchesk]

Yes jordan was a great player but the biggest thing he has to his name is 6/6. if he was never assisted with these titles he would just be some empty stats guy.

Just imagine if he had to play with Shaq or Gasol.

[NZStreetBaller]

Just imagine if he had to play with Shaq or Gasol.

result would always be the same regardless of who MJ played with. as long as he was bringing money into the league he'd win every time.

Does 1 three peat after never making the finals then retiring coming back and three peating again not seem unrealistic to anyone??

they just say wow jordan must be a god.

[SouBeachTalents]

result would always be the same regardless of who MJ played with. as long as he was bringing money into the league he'd win every time.

Does 1 three peat after never making the finals then retiring coming back and three peating again not seem unrealistic to anyone??

they just say wow jordan must be a god.

So why have him lose to the Pistons 3 years in a row? Or lose to the Magic in '95?

[Warfan]

exactly what the video states......... anyone who opposes jordans immortality is considered crazy. Because you've been lead to believe that he is untouchable. and he is. not because he was unbelievably good at basketball but because he had everything on his size. everybody benefited financially from jordans success. people will do anything for money. they have all the motive in the world to help him build an unstoppable image.

No, you're posts in this thread show you're ignorant. Im clowning you because you're claiming things like they're facts when truthfully you have no idea what you're talking about. Youve already proved you started watching the league recently when u said u didnt know who drob was, and I doubt you've ever wached a full game of mj.

At least to do some research, the bulls didn't go from first round loser to instant 3peat. Ever head of the bad boy pistons?? Do you know about Phil Jackson and how he greatly helped the team?? What about Pippen and Grant's development in to great players and help for mj??

[NZStreetBaller]

No, you're posts in this thread show you're ignorant. Im clowning you because you're claiming things like they're facts when truthfully you have no idea what you're talking about. Youve already proved you started watching the league recently when u said u didnt know who drob was, and I doubt you've ever wached a full game of mj.

At least to do some research, the bulls didn't go from first round loser to instant 3peat. Ever head of the bad boy pistons?? Do you know about Phil Jackson and how he greatly helped the team?? Pippen and Grant's development in to great 2 & 3 options??

i shall do some more research if i get the time and can be bothered. the videos very convincing though.

And yes ive watched tonnes of full MJ games although its difficult to watch knowing the eventual outcome.

[Warfan]

i shall do some more research if i get the time and can be bothered. the videos very convincing though.

And yes ive watched tonnes of full MJ games although its difficult to watch knowing the eventual outcome.

The video is very biased too from what I remember, I watched it a long time ago, maybe ill watch it again to see if there's at least some legitimacy to it. I can see how I'm coming across as a d1ck but that's not my intention. Trust me, once you do the proper research you'll change you're mind about this. Just don't go around saying stuff like this like it's 100% true when you're not completely knowledgable enough about it :cheers:

[NZStreetBaller]

The video is very biased too from what I remember, I watched it a long time ago, maybe ill watch it again to see if there's at least some legitimacy in it. I can see how I'm coming across as a d1ck but that's not my intention. Trust me, once you do the proper research you'll change you're mind about this. Just don't go around saying stuff like this like it's 100% true when you're not completely knowledgable enough about it :cheers:

The title was a question not me trying to force a fact i believed. everybody was 100% against the possibility that jordan was a fake, so i tried to test it by questioning it. your the only one who actually came up with anything that really made me think otherwise.:cheers:

[buddha]

Jordan is manufactured in the sense that he got superstar calls, but so do KD, Kobe and Bran.

[NZStreetBaller]

Jordan is manufactured in the sense that he got superstar calls, but so do KD, Kobe and Bran.

how sweet it would be !!

[Dragonyeuw]

result would always be the same regardless of who MJ played with. as long as he was bringing money into the league he'd win every time.
.

Yep, I'm thinking thats why Tim Duncan won 5 titles. The league wanted to cash in on his flamboyant style, and the big market mecca that is San Antonio.

[elementally morale]

Yes he was.

However, even w/o all the marketing and PR campaign he got, he was probably the best player of all time. It's debatable (everything is, even so-called facts... not to speak of opinions) but it's clear he is at or very near the very top of every sane fan's list.

That being said, MJ profited from:

- Magic and Bird having built the laegue for quite some time right before MJ's peak
- Nike and a huge marketing budget
- the NBA just becoming worldwide
- cable TV
- a great time for the economy and global politics


He was a great player, quite possibly the best. Still manufactured in a sense.

[dunksby]

Bj>mj

[ILLsmak]

He's one of the top, but that he's the best is manufactured. Just like with everyone else who is seen as the greatest. More often than not, they are overhyped. Someone has to be the best.

It could be an actor, an artist, a musician... the media does play a large part. It's kind of like when potential great, need for new great, and media love align that someone ends up being the best ever.

-Smak

[Marchesk]

He's one of the top, but that he's the best is manufactured. Just like with everyone else who is seen as the greatest. More often than not, they are overhyped. Someone has to be the best.

It could be an actor, an artist, a musician... the media does play a large part. It's kind of like when potential great, need for new great, and media love align that someone ends up being the best ever.

-Smak

I think he has the best overall resume of anyone ever, but a case can be made for a few others. Nobody's perfect for the GOAT role, not even Jordan. But he's the best fit.

Now it would have been interesting if Russell could have dominated in the 80s instead of the 60s, given the media exposure, DPOY and FMVP awards, plus keeping track of block shots.

[SouBeachTalents]

I think he has the best overall resume of anyone ever, but a case can be made for a few others. Nobody's perfect for the GOAT role, not even Jordan. But he's the best fit.

Now it would have been interesting if Russell could have dominated in the 80s instead of the 60s, given the media exposure, DPOY and FMVP awards, plus keeping track of block shots.

I made a thread about that once, how Russell playing in an era where they didn't hand out Finals MVP's and DPOY's really screwed him over in his argument over Jordan for GOAT. This would have most likely been Russell's resume had he played in an era that handed out those awards

5x MVP, 7x Finals MVP, 11x DPOY, 11 All-NBA team selections, 12 All-Defensive team selections

[GrapeApe]

Yes he was.

However, even w/o all the marketing and PR campaign he got, he was probably the best player of all time. It's debatable (everything is, even so-called facts... not to speak of opinions) but it's clear he is at or very near the very top of every sane fan's list.

That being said, MJ profited from:

- Magic and Bird having built the laegue for quite some time right before MJ's peak
- Nike and a huge marketing budget
- the NBA just becoming worldwide
- cable TV
- a great time for the economy and global politics


He was a great player, quite possibly the best. Still manufactured in a sense.

All excellent points. I do think MJ is the GOAT, but I've always maintained that his ascension to greatness was a perfect storm.

[sekachu]

I just watched these two videos and its really got me convinced. especially when it says that it is a sin to deny jordan as the GOAT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9M-KCulzJqg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmlfiMDUTQ4

I mean i honestly wouldnt be suprised if i got banned if i deared to say MJ wasnt god.




MJ did benefit in some degree, so do kobe and lebron. MJ didn't just reach the expectation, he exceed what people could anticipated that kobe and lebron failed to do.

[DonDadda59]

I think he has the best overall resume of anyone ever, but a case can be made for a few others. Nobody's perfect for the GOAT role, not even Jordan. But he's the best fit.

Now it would have been interesting if Russell could have dominated in the 80s instead of the 60s, given the media exposure, DPOY and FMVP awards, plus keeping track of block shots.

Russell in the 80s-90s = Dennis Rodman. And before you all blow a gasket... That's not meant as an insult. Rodman has 5 rings to his name, in an era where you had to win more than just 2 series to win the 'ship. He was also pound for pound a better rebounder and possibly a better all around defender (obviously bill has the edge in shot blocking).

And what makes Jordan any more 'manufactured' than every other superstar in league History. MJ got a 5 year $500k contract from nike coming off national POY and championship honors in college. LeBron got a $100 million dollar guarantee while a High School senior and complimentary embarrassing tape confiscation service from the same company. He also enjoys media reach and coverage Jordan could never have imagined in his day. Bron has his own phone app that covers his life 24/7 for ****ssake :oldlol:

[G.O.A.T]

Russell in the 80s-90s = Dennis Rodman. And before you all blow a gasket... That's not meant as an insult. Rodman has 5 rings to his name, in an era where you had to win more than just 2 series to win the 'ship. He was also pound for pound a better rebounder and possibly a better all around defender (obviously bill has the edge in shot blocking).

Rodman was not a better rebounder, but at least that's something you could discuss. However they are not even in the same stratosphere as defenders. Rodman was a very good defender, one of the best of his era, but Russell is the greatest of all-time. He anchored the top defense pretty much every year.

Also Russell was a very good offensive player who the Celtics ran their offense through whereas Rodman did almost nothing to contribute top the offense outside of offensive rebounding.

And finally Russell was such a good teammate and leader that he won two titles as player coach whereas Rodman needed multiple people to keep full time tabs on him just to keep him on the court.

I hope you see how absurd what you suggested is.

Russell in the 80's/90's is Hakeem Olajuwon with better intangibles.

[Mr Exlax]

I don't believe he was manufactured. His skill is undeniable. Him having the green light his entire career wasn't manufactured either. If he sucked, he wouldn't be allowed to shoot that much. I am one of the few people on this board that have actually seen him lose a playoff series. Most times it wasn't because of his skill level. His teammates weren't good enough and he simply lost to a better team. Even in losses he was still the best player in the series.

[3ball]

Lebron gets shut down by Dallas, Boston, Spurs - none of them athletic teams, (paul pierce guarded lebron a lot).

[3ball]

srly can you imagine Lebron barreling into those packed paints in the 80's? He'd draw a ton of charges.

:eek:


Too bad he isn't slimmer to zig-zag through defenders and more explosive off two feet like MJ so he could posterize defenders more often in traffic.

brb fapping to the thought
fixed

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/1001/nba_g_james_gb2_576.jpg

[DonDadda59]

Rodman was not a better rebounder, but at least that's something you could discuss.

Russell played on teams that got up to 30 more possessions per game than teams Rodman played on. In Russell's best rebounding season (24.7 RPG), the Celtics played at a pace of 125. In Rodman's best (18.7 RPG), the Pistons played at at pace of 91.6. That's 33 more possessions and opportunities Russell had for boards, yet he only got 6 more. Rodman was getting 15-16 RPG for the Bulls when they were playing at paces that were sometimes under 90.


However they are not even in the same stratosphere as defenders. Rodman was a very good defender, one of the best of his era, but Russell is the greatest of all-time. He anchored the top defense pretty much every year.

Russell played with some top notch defensive personnel his entire career (Havlicek for example was a perennial All NBA defender) in a 9 team league. When Rodman linked up with MJ and Pip, they were the #1 defense in the league. And the Pistons didn't become the Bad Boys until Rodman emerged.


Also Russell was a very good offensive player who the Celtics ran their offense through whereas Rodman did almost nothing to contribute top the offense outside of offensive rebounding.

You're short changing Dennis' passing ability. When he played in the triangle, he was getting 3 APG which is tremendous considering Jordan and Pippen got the bulk of touches/plays on offense. In his best statistical year, Rodman put up 10 PPG/19 RPG/2 APG (54% FG) on a 92 pace team. Russell's was 19/24/5 (46% FG) on a 131 pace team. That's a difference of almost 40 possessions.

Adjusted for pace, I really don't think their production is all that different. If anything Rodman is more efficient offensively.


And finally Russell was such a good teammate and leader that he won two titles as player coach whereas Rodman needed multiple people to keep full time tabs on him just to keep him on the court.

Rodman had his... transgressions off the court :oldlol:

But you never heard a teammate complain about his on the court play. The guy gave 110% on every single play. And he, like Russell, was a proven winner. Russ got to play in an era with much higher pace, a relative handful of teams, and won most of his championships playing in only 2 playoff series per. Plus he had the stability of staying with one team his whole career, playing with the best teammates. If Rodman had played with Jordan and Pippen his entire career, on a team that got 125-130 possessions per game, in a 9 team league, where winning 2 playoff series was enough to win a ring... I don't think it's absurd to claim he and Russell would have similar impact/legacies.

But of course these are all hypotheticals. No way to prove or disprove them.


I hope you see how absurd what you suggested is.

Russell in the 80's/90's is Hakeem Olajuwon with better intangibles.

:roll:

How can you in one breath call me comparing two similar players 'absurd' and then compare Bill Russell to Hakeem Olajuwon? Bill didn't have 1/20th of Hakeem's offensive ability. Both were awesome defensive forces, but offensively... night and day.

[winwin]

yes

he was manufactured by capitalism

[G.O.A.T]

Russell played on teams that got up to 30 more possessions per game than teams Rodman played on. In Russell's best rebounding season (24.7 RPG), the Celtics played at a pace of 125. In Rodman's best (18.7 RPG), the Pistons played at at pace of 91.6. That's 33 more possessions and opportunities Russell had for boards, yet he only got 6 more. Rodman was getting 15-16 RPG for the Bulls when they were playing at paces that were sometimes under 90.

As I said you can have the discussion there, but the only reason Rodman posted those type of numbers was because he only focused on rebounding. When he was an elite defender for the Pistons his rebound rate was a lot lower because he did a lot more on the court.



Russell played with some top notch defensive personnel his entire career (Havlicek for example was a perennial All NBA defender) in a 9 team league. When Rodman linked up with MJ and Pip, they were the #1 defense in the league. And the Pistons didn't become the Bad Boys until Rodman emerged.

Russell's defenses were ranked first in 12 of 13 years. Hondo only played big minutes on four of those teams, the defense's were elite before and after KC Jones, Satch, Hondo, everyone but Russell.

Trading Dantley for Aguirre did allow for more felxiability in using Rodman, but the Bad Boys were the Bad Boys because of Isiah, Mahorn and Laimbeer above anyone else. The Bad Boys won their title with Rodman playing 24 mpg as their fifth/sixth best player.


You're short changing Dennis' passing ability. When he played in the triangle, he was getting 3 APG which is tremendous considering Jordan and Pippen got the bulk of touches/plays on offense. In his best statistical year, Rodman put up 10 PPG/19 RPG/2 APG (54% FG) on a 92 pace team. Russell's was 19/24/5 (46% FG) on a 131 pace team. That's a difference of almost 40 possessions.

Adjusted for pace, I really don't think their production is all that different. If anything Rodman is more efficient offensively.

Why aren't you adjusting the field goal percentage relative to league average if your adjusting for pace? Even if you just go by pace alone, Russell's scoring more and getting more assists. Factor in that assists were given out way less liberally in Russell's era than Rodman's, and now the numbers aren't very close. Again, the Celtics ran their HC offense thru Russ for six years and five titles. Nobody ever had Rodman higher than the fifth option offensively.




Rodman had his... transgressions off the court :oldlol:

But you never heard a teammate complain about his on the court play. The guy gave 110% on every single play.

Not really, remember when MJ and Scottie got made in the 1997 playoffs because he wasn't doing his job? How about all the guys in SA and Chicago who said he didn't play help defense or set screens when he was supposed to because he was always fighting for rebounding position. Overall Dennis is largley a beloved teammate, but he's not on a Russell level.


And he, like Russell, was a proven winner.

Not even remotely similar levels though. Russell is a proven winner in college, the Olympics and his entire career always as his teams best player. Rodman only won when the teams he was on were very goodand he was never more than a third best player. It's different.


Russ got to play in an era with much higher pace, a relative handful of teams, and won most of his championships playing in only 2 playoff series per.

How many series did Rodman's Pistons or Bulls play before the Conference Finals where they were challenged or even had a shot of losing?

Having fewer teams means you play the best players much more frequently, it doesn't make it easier, it makes it harder to put up good numbers.


Plus he had the stability of staying with one team his whole career, playing with the best teammates. If Rodman had played with Jordan and Pippen his entire career, on a team that got 125-130 possessions per game, in a 9 team league, where winning 2 playoff series was enough to win a ring... I don't think it's absurd to claim he and Russell would have similar impact/legacies.

Rodman was drafted onto one of the best teams in the league, was traded to a team that had been a contender for a few years and then was traded to join a a Phil/MJ/Scottie trio that already had three rings together. He had much more luck than Russell who was drafted by a team that had never even made the Finals before.

More importantly, Rodman got traded because of Rodman, because he didn't have the intangible ability Russell had to make others better and keep teams united. He did the opposite. He pissed people off.

It's very much absurd and shows a severe lack of understanding to think a player like Rodman could ever have been regarded in the same class as a player like Russell.


How can you in one breath call me comparing two similar players 'absurd' and then compare Bill Russell to Hakeem Olajuwon? Bill didn't have 1/20th of Hakeem's offensive ability. Both were awesome defensive forces, but offensively... night and day.

Look into what kind of offensive player Hakeem was in college. Especially when he first got there. Put Russell in the 1980's with the climate of basketball being what it was and he does exactly what Hakeem does, develops his offensive game with the help of world class coaching.

Russell is the kind of guy who scored over 20ppg on 70% shooting in the Finals, scored 30 in game seven in 1962, it's not as if he wasn't a capable scorer. But his team was always filled guys who could score and they had a balanced philosophy. Most years 5-7 guys between 10-20 shots per game.

He wasn't going to need that with the Celtics in the 1950's and 1960's. So he never worked on it, that's not how it would have gone in the 1980's.

In both cases you have a guy about 6'10" with insane athleticism and competitive instincts. That's a real comparison, not yours.

[j3lademaster]

Yes he was.

However, even w/o all the marketing and PR campaign he got, he was probably the best player of all time. It's debatable (everything is, even so-called facts... not to speak of opinions) but it's clear he is at or very near the very top of every sane fan's list.

That being said, MJ profited from:

- Magic and Bird having built the laegue for quite some time right before MJ's peak
- Nike and a huge marketing budget
- the NBA just becoming worldwide
- cable TV
- a great time for the economy and global politics


He was a great player, quite possibly the best. Still manufactured in a sense.This. These videos are heaps of garbage, no better than the same type of propaganda that props MJ; but Jordan's status as GOAT is certainly in question and up to an individual's subjective viewpoints.

[3ball]

This. These videos are heaps of garbage, no better than the same type of propaganda that props MJ; but Jordan's status as GOAT is certainly in question and up to an individual's subjective viewpoints.
You know what ISN'T manufactured?

Jordan being the all-time leader in Win Shares, WS/48, PER, Usage+Ortg, PPG, championships, and Finals MVP's in the modern era.

:confusedshrug:

[sportjames23]

You know what ISN'T manufactured?

Jordan being the all-time leader in Win Shares, WS/48, PER, Usage+Ortg, PPG, championships, and Finals MVP's in the modern era.

:confusedshrug:

Ether

[elementally morale]

You know what ISN'T manufactured?

Jordan being the all-time leader in Win Shares, WS/48, PER, Usage+Ortg, PPG, championships, and Finals MVP's in the modern era.

:confusedshrug:

I happen to think advanced stats are all manufactured. That's not to say MJ wasn't great or even the best. But not because of a stat like WS/48 and certainly not because of the # of rings. Russell has more 'as the man' and w/o Pippen and Jackson who knows how many MJ retires with.

It's easier to defend if you say: For me he was the best because I feel he was. However, most people here base their opinions on footage and hype.

I saw many videos of Pel

[3ball]

I happen to think advanced stats are all manufactured.
it's funny though - every major stat that is discovered (PPG, Win Shares, PER, Usage+Ortg, Finals averages, Regular season averages, Playoff Averages, Dunking stats, you name it) - Jordan ends up being the leader in that too.

i guess people will keep looking in the hopes that they will find definitive proof that he ISN'T the goat - but so far, none has been found.

[elementally morale]

it's funny though - every stat that is discovered - Jordan ends up being the leader in that too.

i guess people will keep looking in the hopes that they will find definitive proof that he ISN'T the goat - but so far, none has been found.

I don't really give a shit as far as GOAT is concerned.

I listen to music. The whole world can agree on whoever being the greatest, I probably enjoy someone else more. Who is the greatest composer / rock band / rapper of all time? Who cares?

Same with movies. Same with books. Same with art. Best painter of all time? Best writer of all time? Best actor / director of all time? LOLWUT?

Best basketball player of all time? For all I know, it may be Wilt or Russell. I still don't enjoy watching footage of either.

Being 'the greatest' doesn't really exist. It's just an idea.

[mehyaM24]

As I said you can have the discussion there, but the only reason Rodman posted those type of numbers was because he only focused on rebounding. When he was an elite defender for the Pistons his rebound rate was a lot lower because he did a lot more on the court.




Russell's defenses were ranked first in 12 of 13 years. Hondo only played big minutes on four of those teams, the defense's were elite before and after KC Jones, Satch, Hondo, everyone but Russell.

Trading Dantley for Aguirre did allow for more felxiability in using Rodman, but the Bad Boys were the Bad Boys because of Isiah, Mahorn and Laimbeer above anyone else. The Bad Boys won their title with Rodman playing 24 mpg as their fifth/sixth best player.



Why aren't you adjusting the field goal percentage relative to league average if your adjusting for pace? Even if you just go by pace alone, Russell's scoring more and getting more assists. Factor in that assists were given out way less liberally in Russell's era than Rodman's, and now the numbers aren't very close. Again, the Celtics ran their HC offense thru Russ for six years and five titles. Nobody ever had Rodman higher than the fifth option offensively.





Not really, remember when MJ and Scottie got made in the 1997 playoffs because he wasn't doing his job? How about all the guys in SA and Chicago who said he didn't play help defense or set screens when he was supposed to because he was always fighting for rebounding position. Overall Dennis is largley a beloved teammate, but he's not on a Russell level.



Not even remotely similar levels though. Russell is a proven winner in college, the Olympics and his entire career always as his teams best player. Rodman only won when the teams he was on were very goodand he was never more than a third best player. It's different.



How many series did Rodman's Pistons or Bulls play before the Conference Finals where they were challenged or even had a shot of losing?

Having fewer teams means you play the best players much more frequently, it doesn't make it easier, it makes it harder to put up good numbers.



Rodman was drafted onto one of the best teams in the league, was traded to a team that had been a contender for a few years and then was traded to join a a Phil/MJ/Scottie trio that already had three rings together. He had much more luck than Russell who was drafted by a team that had never even made the Finals before.

More importantly, Rodman got traded because of Rodman, because he didn't have the intangible ability Russell had to make others better and keep teams united. He did the opposite. He pissed people off.

It's very much absurd and shows a severe lack of understanding to think a player like Rodman could ever have been regarded in the same class as a player like Russell.



Look into what kind of offensive player Hakeem was in college. Especially when he first got there. Put Russell in the 1980's with the climate of basketball being what it was and he does exactly what Hakeem does, develops his offensive game with the help of world class coaching.

Russell is the kind of guy who scored over 20ppg on 70% shooting in the Finals, scored 30 in game seven in 1962, it's not as if he wasn't a capable scorer. But his team was always filled guys who could score and they had a balanced philosophy. Most years 5-7 guys between 10-20 shots per game.

He wasn't going to need that with the Celtics in the 1950's and 1960's. So he never worked on it, that's not how it would have gone in the 1980's.

In both cases you have a guy about 6'10" with insane athleticism and competitive instincts. That's a real comparison, not yours.

the post heard around the world..by jordan fans

this is why i believe they're the worst group of fans in sports. a complete and utter lack of history, downplaying other goat candidates, and just overall ignorance. the funny thing is, as RR said, most of them didn't even watch jordan play. :oldlol:

[Dragonyeuw]

the post heard around the world..by jordan fans

this is why i believe they're the worst group of fans in sports. a complete and utter lack of history, downplaying other goat candidates, and just overall ignorance. the funny thing is, as RR said, most of them didn't even watch jordan play. :oldlol:

No worse than kobe/lebron stans. You got fan videos of 'how great is our gawd' dedicated to Kobe, but yet MJ fans are the worst?

I figure most who claim MJ as GOAT are likely old enough to have seen him in his peak. We arent from the generation who base our knowledge of him strictly on a bunch of youtube highlight videos, or seeing him at the end with the wizards as a 40 year old.

[elementally morale]

I figure most who claim MJ as GOAT are likely old enough to have seen him in his peak. We arent from the generation who base our knowledge of him strictly on a bunch of youtube highlight videos, or seeing him at the end with the wizards as a 40 year old.


I think half of the people who say MJ was the greatest are young and/or never followed the game that much. (And they may still be right.)

On the other hand, I'm old enough to have seen MJ's (and Magic's and Bird's) whole career.... but I'm not old enough to have been able to watch prime Kareem, prime Dr. J or any form of Wilt and Russell.

I also know that people are very likely to value things they loved as teens and very young adults (i.e.: ages 13-25) a lot more than things they saw at an earlier or later stage.

Speaking of age is a double edged sword in this regard.

[TheMan]

:biggums: Peeps, why even bother with the OP? If he wants to believe there was an iluminati conspiracy to help Jordan win titles to bring in more money to the NBA, let him. Dude is clearly lost. He hasn't even bothered to watch MJ's full games and believes refs were handing him those wins because two YouTube videos says so...those of us who watched and those who were too young but actually inform themselves know it's a load of crap and not worth giving time to, just let him wallow in stupidity. No biggie.

[TheMan]

Someone is actually trying to offensively compare Bill Russell to the Dream here? :oldlol: Only at ISH:facepalm

[sportjames23]

No worse than kobe/lebron stans. You got fan videos of 'how great is our gawd' dedicated to Kobe, but yet MJ fans are the worst?

I figure most who claim MJ as GOAT are likely old enough to have seen him in his peak. We arent from the generation who base our knowledge of him strictly on a bunch of youtube highlight videos, or seeing him at the end with the wizards as a 40 year old.

This. :cheers:

[mehyaM24]

No worse than kobe/lebron stans. You got fan videos of 'how great is our gawd' dedicated to Kobe, but yet MJ fans are the worst?

I figure most who claim MJ as GOAT are likely old enough to have seen him in his peak. We arent from the generation who base our knowledge of him strictly on a bunch of youtube highlight videos, or seeing him at the end with the wizards as a 40 year old.

far worse. the original idiots who created the "#1 man" nonsense. ive seen posters (jordan fans) in this very thread make topics about russell being equal to rodman, chamberlain to mcgee etc. not only that, they often disparage the younger generation too. lebron and kobe "couldnt play in the 80s". lebron would win "zero" championships with the stacked bulls (:roll:)

like i said just shit posting. THE worst fans/scum in sports.

[eeeeeebro]

IF you had a team right NOW and you could add ANY person of all time who would you add... That is the goat.. For me - give me jordan 10 out of 10 times we are winning championships

[nathanjizzle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRCTp57LQro

in the last minutes of game 6, down by a few points, jordan makes a crucial layup. on defense he makes a steal, then on offense makes a bucket to take the lead.

when has lebron ever even shown a glimse of this kind of greatness? i dont recall. matter of fact, all i remember from lebron is playing like a scared little boy.

[3ball]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRCTp57LQro

in the last minutes of game 6, down by a few points, jordan makes a crucial layup. on defense he makes a steal, then on offense makes a bucket to take the lead.

when has lebron ever even shown a glimse of this kind of greatness? i dont recall. matter of fact, all i remember from lebron is playing like a scared little boy.
I believe the term used nowadays is "wanting it more" (WIM).. it might have originated with Jordan actually..

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/a94010f9a57f5f8cf96d5baf27e875d9.gif

[Beastmode88]

i wouldn't say manufactured, just not the "greatest".

you're not "GOAT status" being 1-9 in the playoffs to start your career (and definitely not while playing in the expansion era with no super teams except the the team YOU play for). his running mate, pippen, was the leader, best playmaker, defender, and rebounder yet jordan is supposed to be goat? nah. not buying it.

i have jordan in my top 5. russell and kareem (inc collegiate career) both have better cases, imo.

we can all bring up this "1-9" crap but when he started to win, he never lost. he retired cause he had no competition. came back loss regroupped and won 3 more. no one was able to stop jordan in the finals. thats why he was the greatest. when it comes down to crunch time he will win it for you.

[Hey Yo]

we can all bring up this "1-9" crap but when he started to win, he never lost. he retired cause he had no competition. came back loss regroupped and won 3 more. no one was able to stop jordan in the finals. thats why he was the greatest. when it comes down to crunch time he will win it for you.
By far the dumbest logic on why he quit the league with a chance to 4peat.

[julizaver]

I just watched these two videos and its really got me convinced. especially when it says that it is a sin to deny jordan as the GOAT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9M-KCulzJqg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmlfiMDUTQ4

I mean i honestly wouldnt be suprised if i got banned if i deared to say MJ wasnt god.

I could not believe what my eyes sees nowaday.
No it is no sin to deny that MJ was the GOAT. But to call him manifactured !?

No matter of his marketability every NORMAL fan who watched bball during the 90s will tell you that MJ was the best player of his generation even if they did not like him. And it is due to his dominance that his figure goes to mithological proportions. He makes others thinks of him as a basketball god because of his plays and accomplisments on court not because of NIKE and other adversaries.