Which of the Top 11 Players Are Best At:

[T_L_P]

-Scoring
-Passing
-Defense
-Leadership

Obviously it'd take to long to rank them all, but which are your top 3/5 in these categories?

Let's just say the established top 11 is:

Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Jordan
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan
Kobe
LeBron

[robert_shaww]

[/LIST]
-Scoring
-Passing
-Defense
-Leadership

Obviously it'd take to long to rank them all, but which are your top 3/5 in these categories?

Let's just say the established top 11 is:

Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Jordan
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan
Kobe
LeBron

TOP 5

SCORING:

KAREEM
WILT
JORDAN
KOBE
BIRD

PASSING:

MAGIC
BIRD
LEBRON
JORDAN
KOBE


DEFENSE:

RUSSELL
JORDAN
DUNCAN
HAKEEM
KAREEM

LEADERSHIP

JORDAN
RUSSELL
MAGIC
BIRD
KOBE

[Vienceslav]

This is actually a very interesting topic to discuss OP.
Obviously to be one of the 11 best players to ever live you need to be exceptional in all 4 of these facets, but I'll try to split hairs here.
It's probably better to establish the criteria that I or any other person who choses to respond choses to qualify these skills.
I think it's best to use the video game skill level here so we don't get caught up with Larry being a great passer for a SF when Magic is the greatest passer ever, in other words, deal with absolutes not relatives.
That being said:
-Scoring Kareem
-Passing Magic
-Defense Russell
-Leadership Russell

[JohnFreeman]

lol at Kobe being a better leader then LeBron

[SHAQisGOAT]

-Scoring
-Passing
-Defense
-Leadership

Obviously it'd take to long to rank them all, but which are your top 3/5 in these categories?

Let's just say the established top 11 is:

Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Jordan
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan
Kobe
LeBron


Scoring:
1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Shaq
5. Kobe/Bird/LeBron

Passing:

1. Magic
2. Bird
3. LeBron
4. Jordan
5. Kobe (or couple of the best bigmen at it)

Defense (bigs obviously "have" the chance to be more impactful):

1. Russell
2. Hakeem
3. Wilt
4. Duncan
5. Kareem

Leadership:

1. Russell
2. Bird
3. Magic
4. Jordan
5. Duncan/Kobe

[Jlamb47]

-Scoring
-Passing
-Defense
-Leadership

Obviously it'd take to long to rank them all, but which are your top 3/5 in these categories?

Let's just say the established top 11 is:

Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Jordan
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan
Kobe
LeBron

Scoring -
Jordan
Kobe
Shaq
Kareem
Wilt

Passing
Magic
Lebron
Bird
Jordan
Kobe

Defense
Duncan
Hakeem
Russell
Kareem
Jordan



Leadership
Russell
Duncan
MAgic/Bird
Jordan
kobe

[Random_Guy]

interesting topic, scoring alone is quite debatable between kareem and jordan tbh.
as for passing, most likely the majority would go with magic but bird and lebron also have many insane and difficult passes.
defense and leadership...hard to argue over russell imo

[dubeta]

LOOL at anyone putting kobe and bird ahead of lebron in terms of scoring


Scoring
1. Jordan
2. LeBron
3. Wilt
4. Kobe
5. Bird



Passing
1. Magic
2. Lebron
3. Bird
4. MJ
5. Kobe

[Nowitness]

scoring:

1) jordan
2) kareem
3) shaq

passing:

1) magic
2) bird
3) russell

defense:

1) russell
2) hakeem
3) duncan

leadership:

1) russell
2) bird
3) duncan

[T_L_P]

This is actually a very interesting topic to discuss OP.
Obviously to be one of the 11 best players to ever live you need to be exceptional in all 4 of these facets, but I'll try to split hairs here.
It's probably better to establish the criteria that I or any other person who choses to respond choses to qualify these skills.
I think it's best to use the video game skill level here so we don't get caught up with Larry being a great passer for a SF when Magic is the greatest passer ever, in other words, deal with absolutes not relatives.
That being said:
-Scoring Kareem
-Passing Magic
-Defense Russell
-Leadership Russell

Yeah, it's better to just name the absolute best players at these facets. Magic is always gonna be passing. But 2-5 is interested.

[kennethgriffin]

why did the top 10 list suddenly become a top 11 list so bran bronze le quitterson could be involved

[kennethgriffin]

kobes a better passer than Jordan btw.. he lead all 5 championship teams in assists and had to play PG due to fisher having ZERO play making skills

pippen lead every chicago team in assists and played PG while mj sat on the block

kobe was the better ball handler/play maker

[Encre92]

why did the top 10 list suddenly become a top 11 list so bran bronze le quitterson could be involved


It's to let Kobe into the discussion.:oldlol:

[kennethgriffin]

It's to let Kobe into the discussion.:oldlol:


sorry but before Lebron got to 1.5 rings. it was always a top 10 discussion

then when lebron reached that level ( just behind hakeems total ) then suddenly it became a top 11 discussion


do the math f*ck tard

[russwest0]

[QUOTE=T_L_P]-Scoring MJ
-Passing Magic
-Defense Duncan
-Leadership MJ

[kennethgriffin]

why not make it a top 12 list


include oscar

but then why not include moses and dr J while we're at it


lol top 11

[Encre92]

sorry but before Lebron got to 1.5 rings. it was always a top 10 discussion

then when lebron reached that level ( just behind hakeems total ) then suddenly it became a top 11 discussion


do the math f*ck tard
Kobe has 0 rings by your logic. Rode Shaq to 3, bailed out by Artest and Gasol to 2.

Kobe isn't even in my top 12 lmao. Tony Parker has a chance to eclipse Kobe in EVERY CATEGORY of important accolades. So by that logic is Kobe only a top 60 player? I think so HAHA.

[Le Shaqtus]

LOOL at anyone putting kobe and bird ahead of lebron in terms of scoring

If your life depended on a jump shot and it had to be between Bird or LeBron, I guarantee you would pick Larry.

[Encre92]

If your life depended on a jump shot and it had to be between Bird or LeBron, I guarantee you would pick Larry.
Lebron for me.

[Le Shaqtus]

Lebron for me.

Suicide is not the way my son.

[HOoopCityJones]

Lebron for me.

Because you wanna anally rape him.

But when it comes to Basketball, real fans know who gets the ball in that situation.

[G.O.A.T]

Scoring
Jordan
Kareem
Wilt
___________
Shaq
Kobe
Bird
LeBron
Hakeem
___________
Duncan
Russell

Passing
Magic
__________
Bird
LeBron
__________
Jordan
Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Kobe
__________
Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem

Defense
Russell
_________
Hakeem
Wilt
Duncan
_________
Jordan
Kareem
Kobe
Lebron
Shaq
________
Bird
Magic

Leadership
Russell
Magic
__________
Duncan
Jordan
Bird
_________
Kobe
LeBron
Kareem
Hakeem
Shaq
Wilt

[HOoopCityJones]

lol at Kobe being a better leader then LeBron

How would a Kings fan know what leadership looks like? :confusedshrug:

Only leading you've seen is the scoreboards from all the losses in the playoffs.

[G.O.A.T]

I'll add some more since this is so much fun.

Rebounding
Russell
Wilt
__________
Kareem
Duncan
Hakeem
Shaq
__________
Bird
LeBron
Magic
__________
Jordan
Kobe

Ball Handling
Magic
___________
LeBron
Jordan
Kobe
__________
Bird
Russell
Kareem
Wilt
Hakeem
Duncan
Shaq

Peak Play
Wilt
Shaq
Jordan
Kareem
LeBron
Bird
Russell
Magic
Kobe
Hakeem
Duncan

Intangibles
Russell
Duncan
Magic
Bird
Jordan
LeBron
Kobe
Kareem
Hakeem
Shaq
Wilt

Strength/Speed/Athleticism
Wilt
Shaq
LeBron
________
Jordan
Russell
Harlem
Kobe
_______
Duncan
Magic
Bird

[Marchesk]

Lebron for me.

Only if Bosh is open in the corner.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Scoring:

1) MJ
2) West
3) Shaq
4) Kobe
5) Wilt

Passing:

1) Magic
2) Bird
3) LeBron
4) West
5) MJ

Defense:

1) Russell
2) Hakeem
3) Wilt
4) Duncan
5) MJ

Leadership:

1) Russell
2) Magic
3) Bird
4) MJ
5) LeBron

[Nowitness]

I'll add some more since this is so much fun.

Rebounding
Russell
Wilt
__________
Kareem
Duncan
Hakeem
Shaq
__________
Bird
LeBron
Magic
__________
Jordan
Kobe

Ball Handling
Magic
___________
LeBron
Jordan
Kobe
__________
Bird
Russell
Kareem
Wilt
Hakeem
Duncan
Shaq

Peak Play
Wilt
Shaq
Jordan
Kareem
LeBron
Bird
Russell
Magic
Kobe
Hakeem
Duncan

Intangibles
Russell
Duncan
Magic
Bird
Jordan
LeBron
Kobe
Kareem
Hakeem
Shaq
Wilt

Strength/Speed/Athleticism
Wilt
Shaq
LeBron
________
Jordan
Russell
Harlem
Kobe
_______
Duncan
Magic
Bird


great list, but kobe over hakeem//duncan??

those two were offensive/-defensive monsters. and two of their title teams were dragged by them. they have the better numbers too.

[G.O.A.T]

great list, but kobe over hakeem//duncan??

those two were offensive/-defensive monsters. and two of their title teams were dragged by them. they have the better numbers too.

All 11 are close in terms of peak play, especially after the top four. I gave Kobe the nod because I consider his ceiling higher than Hakeem and Duncan who were never the clear best big man for multiple years like Kobe was amongst perimeter player IMO.

I get what you're saying about '94 and '03 when those guys on titles without a true #2 but those teams were wonderfully constructed around their stars.

[Jlamb47]

Duncan can put up WIlt numbers in the 60;s too

Russell and Wilt is overrated

[Smoke117]

Scoring -

Jordan
Kareem
Wilt
Shaq
Bird

Passing -

Magic
Bird
Lebron
Jordan
Wilt

Defense -

Hakeem
Russell
Wilt
Duncan
Kareem

Leadership -

Magic
Bird
Russell
Duncan
Hakeem (when he stopped trying to beat the shit out of everyone like he was in the 80s lol)

Ball Handling -

Magic
Jordan
Lebron
Kobe
Hakeem

Peak Play -

Jordan
Wilt
Kareem
Bird
Lebron

[PsychoBe]

How would a Kings fan know what leadership looks like? :confusedshrug:

Only leading you've seen is the scoreboards from all the losses in the playoffs.

dont do him like that :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[DatAsh]

Scoring
Jordan
___________
Shaq
Kobe
Wilt
Kareem
___________
Lebron
Bird
Hakeem
___________
Magic
Duncan
___________
Russell


Passing
Magic
___________
Bird
LeBron
__________
Jordan
Kobe
Russell
Wilt
__________
Kareem
Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem


Defense
Russell
_________
Hakeem
Wilt
_________
Duncan
_________
Kareem
Jordan
_________
Lebron
Kobe
Shaq
_________
Bird
Magic


Leadership
Magic
Russell
__________
Duncan
Jordan
Bird
__________
Lebron
Kobe
Hakeem
__________
Kareem
Shaq
Wilt

[JohnFreeman]

How would a Kings fan know what leadership looks like? :confusedshrug:

Only leading you've seen is the scoreboards from all the losses in the playoffs.
Original as always

[Round Mound]

Scoring:
1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Shaq
5. Kobe/Bird/LeBron

Passing:

1. Magic
2. Bird
3. LeBron
4. Jordan
5. Kobe (or couple of the best bigmen at it)

Defense (bigs obviously "have" the chance to be more impactful):

1. Russell
2. Hakeem
3. Wilt
4. Duncan
5. Kareem

Leadership:

1. Russell
2. Bird
3. Magic
4. Jordan
5. Duncan/Kobe

This is Quite Accurate But I Would Put Shaq and Kareem Over Jordan In Scoring. I Know Jordan Scored More But Per FGAs Taken and FGAs Missed Shaq is 1st In Regards To Efficiency, then Kareem and Wilt. Wilt Could Have Been 2nd But He Decided Not To Score As Much At One Point on His Career. As Far as Defense Its Russell and Then Wilt (The GOAT Rim Protector Of His Era). Good Job :applause:

[T_L_P]

I'd probably go with*:

Scoring

Jordan
Kareem
Shaq
Kobe
Wilt

--

Magic
Russell

Passing

Magic
Bird
Russell
Jordan
Kobe

--

Shaq
Hakeem

Defense

Russell
Duncan
Hakeem
Wilt
Jordan

--

Bird
Magic

Leadership

Russell
Magic
Duncan
Bird
Jordan

--

Kobe
Wilt

*Bottom two underneath

[BigTicket]

My top 5 for each category, in no particular order.

Scoring
Wilt
Kareem
Jordan
Kobe
LeBron

Passing
Wilt
Magic
Bird
LeBron
Jordan

Defense
Russell
Wilt
Duncan
Jordan
Hakeem

Leadership
Bird
Russell
Magic
Duncan
Lebron

[pauk]

At their very best/peak/prime or for their entire career?

PPG:
1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4. LeBron James
5. Kobe Bryant

Overall Scoring Arsenal/Skills:
1. Larry Bird
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kobe Bryant
4. LeBron James
5. Magic Johnson

APG:
1. Magic Johnson
2. LeBron James
3. Larry Bird
4. Michael Jordan
5. Kobe Bryant

Raw passing skills
1. Magic Johnson
2. LeBron James
2. Larry Bird
4. Michael Jordan
5. Kobe Bryant

Interior Defense
1. Bill Russell
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Tim Duncan

Perimeter Defense
1. Michael Jordan
2. LeBron James
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Larry Bird
5. Magic Johnson

Leadership
1. Bill Russell
2. Magic Johnson
3. Michael Jordan
4. LeBron James
5. Larry Bird

[Nowitness]

At their very best/peak/prime or for their entire career?

PPG:
1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4. LeBron James
5. Kobe Bryant

Overall Scoring Arsenal/Skills:
1. Larry Bird
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kobe Bryant
4. LeBron James
5. Magic Johnson

APG:
1. Magic Johnson
2. LeBron James
3. Larry Bird
4. Michael Jordan
5. Kobe Bryant

Raw passing skills
1. Magic Johnson
2. LeBron James
2. Larry Bird
4. Michael Jordan
5. Kobe Bryant

Interior Defense
1. Bill Russell
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Tim Duncan

Perimeter Defense
1. Michael Jordan
2. LeBron James
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Larry Bird
5. Magic Johnson

Leadership
1. Bill Russell
2. Magic Johnson
3. Michael Jordan
4. LeBron James
5. Larry Bird


you keep proving how out of wack you are. first i school you on the shaq/duncan thread, now again.

no way is kareem a better interior defender than duncan or even wilt. that claim is so retarded.

can you please back it up?

and how is lebron a better leader than bird or duncan? his huddle speeches are pathetic, and he leaves a bad taste everywhere he goes. he made bosh's game redundant ..

can you please back it up?

[aj1987]

I'd probably go with*:

Scoring

Jordan
Kareem
Shaq
Kobe
Wilt

--

Magic
Russell

Passing

Magic
Bird
Russell
Jordan
Kobe

--

Shaq
Hakeem

Defense

Russell
Duncan
Hakeem
Wilt
Jordan

--

Bird
Magic

Leadership

Russell
Magic
Duncan
Bird
Jordan

--

Kobe
Wilt

*Bottom two underneath
Idiotic list.

:oldlol: @ Duncan being the 2nd best defender in the top 11, Kobe being a better scorer than LeBron/Wilt, Kobe/Russell being better passers than LeBron.

[T_L_P]

Idiotic list.

:oldlol: @ Duncan being the 2nd best defender in the top 11, Kobe being a better scorer than LeBron/Wilt, Kobe/Russell being better passers than LeBron.

It's either Duncan or Hakeem. I haven't watched a lot of Wilt's footage. I've seen more of Russell's and his defense is more storied.

So who else would it be? Shaq? Kareem? A perimeter player? :oldlol:

Wilt's career Playoff scoring averages are 22.5. Now, if you put those numbers in today's pace, it'd probably be around 18. I'd actually probably put LeBron ahead of Wilt in scoring when I really think about it, but not Kobe. Scoring is a lot about the ways you can score, and who it's against. LeBron's competition isn't significantly better than Wilt's (it's much weaker than Kobe's), and for most of his career he scored with his insane athleticism/size. The guy had a broken jump shot and the smart teams -- the Western teams -- exploited it.

[Reggie43]

Idiotic list.

:oldlol: @ Duncan being the 2nd best defender in the top 11, Kobe being a better scorer than LeBron/Wilt, Kobe/Russell being better passers than LeBron.


Yeah, I remember Tim Duncan's "defense" getting mightily exposed in the Fiba competitions in 2004 yet this dude ranks him as the 2nd best defender of all time :confusedshrug:

[T_L_P]

Yeah, I remember Tim Duncan's "defense" getting mightily exposed in the Fiba competitions in 2004 yet this dude ranks him as the 2nd best defender of all time :confusedshrug:

No, I didn't. Care to point out where I called him the second best defender ever?

Also, can you explain how a string of a dozen non-NBA games affects the way one ranks an NBA player? I'd be really interested to hear that one.

[pauk]

no way is kareem a better interior defender than duncan or even wilt. that claim is so retarded.


No, the only retarded thing here is that you think its retarded to consider Kareem / Wilt one tiny step over Duncan in that department.....



and how is lebron a better leader than bird or duncan? his huddle speeches are pathetic, and he leaves a bad taste everywhere he goes. he made bosh's game redundant ..


Bird was a GOAT type of basketball mind but so were those other guys, the difference between him and for example Jordan, Lebron, Duncan and Kobe in this department is that they were much more voiced symphonizing their teammates not only offensively but defensively aswell..... i put him there out of pure bias, if i wouldnt i would have Duncan there over him aswell or even Kobe....

If you watched alot of 80s Celtics games you will even realise that it was actually Dennis Johnson who was more of that vocal guy being more operatic with everybody (on both ends), he was that floor general.... Bird was more of a lead by example guy, silent but deadly, most of the times he would open his mouth was to talk crap to his defender... :P

[Nowitness]

No, the only retarded thing here is that you think its retarded to consider Kareem / Wilt one tiny step over Duncan in that department.....



Bird was a GOAT type of basketball mind but so were those other guys, the difference between him and for example Jordan, Lebron, Duncan and Kobe in this department is that they were much more voiced symphonizing their teammates not only offensively but defensively aswell..... i put him there out of pure bias, if i wouldnt i would have Duncan there over him aswell or even Kobe....

If you watched alot of 80s Celtics games you will even realise that it was actually Dennis Johnson who was more of that vocal guy being more operatic with everybody (on both ends), he was that floor general.... Bird was more of a lead by example guy, silent but deadly, most of the times he would open his mouth was to talk crap to his defender... :P


i'm glad you admitted the bias thing with lebron, but im still not sure about kareem being a better defender (interior. overall. whatever) than duncan.

kareem was very good in his prime. not a best in the league player but good. he was average in LA.

he was never a true anchor like russell, hakeem, duncan, ben wallace, dwight howard were. thats why he wasnt better. he was hesitant to even body up his man some of the time.

[Reggie43]

No, I didn't. Care to point out where I called him the second best defender ever?


You listed them, unless you have someone outside the top 11 players of all time who was a better defender?


Also, can you explain how a string of a dozen non-NBA games affects the way one ranks an NBA player? I'd be really interested to hear that one.

You never mentioned on your original post that they have to be ranked only as Nba players.

Add in the fact that there is more prestige and pride in these competitions because you represent your country, plus it shows how certain "superstars" adapt to playing with very good teammates and adjust to certain situations which Duncan failed to do.

[JtotheIzzo]

MJ-Scoring
Magic-Passing
MJ/Russell-Defense
Bird/Russell-Leadership

[T_L_P]

You listed them, unless you have someone outside the top 11 players of all time who was a better defender?



You never mentioned on your original post that they have to be ranked only as Nba players.

Add in the fact that there is more prestige and pride in these competitions because you represent your country, plus it shows how certain "superstars" adapt to playing with very good teammates and adjust to certain situations which Duncan failed to do.

Duncan's defense was fine in Athens though. He was called for ticky-tack fouls, but everyone knew they were BS back then. The coaches, the fans, even some of the opposing players (though I might be confusing them with USA players) said so. It's not like Duncan pulled a 2011 Finals or anything. Without looking at the stats (on my phone), I can tell you he was our second highest scorer, best rebounder and shot blocker, top 4 in assists, third in FG%. Teams were routinely doubling and tripple teaming him whilst playing a zone to make our horrendous shooters win the game. When AI is shooting 35%, the shooters aren't hitting anything, Coach Brown is falling in love with RJEFF, opposing teams are paying by far the most attention to you, and the refs aren't giving you anything, what hope do you have?

If Duncan consistently did this then there'd be something to it. But Duncan has probably had more teammates than anyone else in the league, and he has always adapted his game:

"In the deadly slow-it-down, grind-it-out, defense-beats-offense era (1999-2004), Duncan won two titles. During the transition period as everyone adjusted to the new rules (2005-06, when the NBA called hand-checking and allowed moving picks), he won a third title. And now that we're firmly entrenched in the drive-and-dish/offense-beats-defense/smallball era, he's more valuable than ever because he's one of the few big guys who's polished enough to punish players in the low post AND talented enough to guard quicker players on the other end."

Perhaps you have Hakeem and Wilt over Duncan defensively. I'm not arguing. But on that specific list, there's no way he's lower than 4. :confusedshrug:

[Reggie43]

Duncan's defense was fine in Athens though. He was called for ticky-tack fouls, but everyone knew they were BS back then. The coaches, the fans, even some of the opposing players (though I might be confusing them with USA players) said so. It's not like Duncan pulled a 2011 Finals or anything. Without looking at the stats (on my phone), I can tell you he was our second highest scorer, best rebounder and shot blocker, top 4 in assists, third in FG%. Teams were routinely doubling and tripple teaming him whilst playing a zone to make our horrendous shooters win the game. When AI is shooting 35%, the shooters aren't hitting anything, Coach Brown is falling in love with RJEFF, opposing teams are paying by far the most attention to you, and the refs aren't giving you anything, what hope do you have?

If Duncan consistently did this then there'd be something to it. But Duncan has probably had more teammates than anyone else in the league, and he has always adapted his game:

"In the deadly slow-it-down, grind-it-out, defense-beats-offense era (1999-2004), Duncan won two titles. During the transition period as everyone adjusted to the new rules (2005-06, when the NBA called hand-checking and allowed moving picks), he won a third title. And now that we're firmly entrenched in the drive-and-dish/offense-beats-defense/smallball era, he's more valuable than ever because he's one of the few big guys who's polished enough to punish players in the low post AND talented enough to guard quicker players on the other end."

Perhaps you have Hakeem and Wilt over Duncan defensively. I'm not arguing. But on that specific list, there's no way he's lower than 4. :confusedshrug:

That's the point man, he never adjusted to the ticky tack fouls that they called on him, but I agree that it was a small sample size so sorry to nitpick. I have him at fourth by the way defensively.

He was probably the best player in the 2004 team, and it was hardly his fault that the coaches/players failed to develop a gameplan necessary to win.

[Nash]

Why is Lebron not higher up in scoring ability? He's on pace to become the best scorer and is the youngest to reach certain amount of points. Also, amazing % topped of with these last few years where he has shot 57% twice and above 50% 5 straight seasons.

[T_L_P]

That's the point man, he never adjusted to the ticky tack fouls that they called on him, but I agree that it was a small sample size so sorry to nitpick. I have him at fourth by the way defensively.

He was probably the best player in the 2004 team, and it was hardly his fault that the coaches/players failed to develop a gameplan necessary to win.

:cheers:

[Asukal]

I'll join... :D

Scoring:
Jordan
Kareem
West

Passing:
Magic
Bird
Lebron

Defense:
Russell
Hakeem
Duncan

Leadership:
Russell
Jordan
Magic

:applause: :applause: :bowdown: :rockon:

[kshutts1]

-Scoring
-Passing
-Defense
-Leadership

Obviously it'd take to long to rank them all, but which are your top 3/5 in these categories?

Let's just say the established top 11 is:

Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Jordan
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan
Kobe
LeBron

I know it is not the point of the thread, but Oscar NEEDS to be mentioned. Make it a top 12. And I believe KG should be, but I know that's not agreed upon by the majority.

[kshutts1]

-Scoring
-Passing
-Defense
-Leadership

Let's just say the established top 11 is:

Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Jordan
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan
Kobe
LeBron
Oscar (included by me)
Defense: Russell, Wilt, Jordan, Duncan
Scoring: Wilt, Kareem, Jordan
Leadership: Russell, Bird, Magic, Duncan
Passing: Magic, Oscar, Bird
Rebounding: Wilt, Russell, Bird
Shooting: Bird, Kobe, Oscar

[atljonesbro]

WTF are people really putting Kobe above LeBron as a scorer :biggums:

[kshutts1]

Why is Lebron not higher up in scoring ability? He's on pace to become the best scorer and is the youngest to reach certain amount of points. Also, amazing % topped of with these last few years where he has shot 57% twice and above 50% 5 straight seasons.
It is certainly not a knock on Lebron to say he's behind Wilt, Kareem, Jordan in scoring... just saying. I'm not saying Lebron is a top 5-10 scorer of all time, nor do I care to discuss it, but even if he's not, that's STILL not a knock on him. Safe to say that top 20 in ANYTHING for the history of the sport is legit, particularly when it's not Lebron's primary focus.

[kshutts1]

Threw everyone's votes into excel. Scoring was kinda weird, but I'll do my best to detail it after...

Scoring Passing Defense Leadership Total
Russell 3 6 64 69 142
Kareem 44 0 9 0 53
Wilt 33 4 31 0 68
Shaq 25 0 0 0 25
Duncan 0 0 35 22 57
Hakeem 0 0 40 1 41
Jordan 68 24 17 32 141
Bird 10 51 0 40 101
Magic 1 78 0 45 124
Kobe 15 9 0 4 28
Lebron 11 39 0 5 55

Takeaways -
Magic has the highest "rating" of any player for any "skill". Kind of surprising.

Jordan is most well-rounded, as the only player with double digits in all facets.

I wanted to not count Pauk's votes (no offense, Pauk) just because nearly every vote of his was an outlier. I did not count his defensive votes, as he split them into post/perimeter.

On a personal level, I was shocked at the number of people mentioning... Jordan, Kobe, Lebron for Leadership. Russell, Wilt for passing (for big men, most certainly). Russell, Bird, Kobe, Magic for scoring. Obviously a lot of these can be explained by different criteria for everyone, as well as differing opinions. Just surprised is all I'm saying.

One player voted = 3 points

More than one player voted = # of players for #1 (i.e. 5 players listed, first player gets 5, second 4..) with max being five, min being 3. (so a list of two players would net 3 and then 2, while a list of 8 would net 5, 4, 3, 2, 1)

Anyone that annoyed me doing tiers (lol) I assigned points to tiers... first tier is 5, second is next number in order, third is next, etc... for example, If the first tier had 3 players, second tier would start with 2 as the value.. 5, 5, 5, 2, 2.

I only "paid out" more than 5 votes for two people, I think... they didn't do tiers, but listed 1 through 5, with a tie for 3rd and a tie for 5th, respectively.

If anyone was added not in the original list (West, Oscar) I ignored them. Pretended they were not there.

Some super obvious issues with this scoring "format", but just tried to give a cumulative points value, beyond a straight up count.

[kshutts1]

....that's not how the formatting looked when I posted it. Sorry about that, guys.

Edit: I'm so glad I wasted so much time formatting it properly, just for the site to "fix" it, lol.

[aj1987]

It's either Duncan or Hakeem. I haven't watched a lot of Wilt's footage. I've seen more of Russell's and his defense is more storied.

So who else would it be? Shaq? Kareem? A perimeter player? :oldlol:
I do read a bit about '60's and '70's basketball. As much as I hate on the guards of that era, I've always maintained that Russell, Wilt, etc. would be among the top 5 in any era. There's only a bit of footage, so you need to read about that era as well.

That being said, I would take Russell, Wilt, Hakeem, and Kareem over Duncan defensively.


Wilt's career Playoff scoring averages are 22.5. Now, if you put those numbers in today's pace, it'd probably be around 18. I'd actually probably put LeBron ahead of Wilt in scoring when I really think about it, but not Kobe. Scoring is a lot about the ways you can score, and who it's against.
So, shooting a mid-range jumper over 3 defenders at 40% is better than taking it to the hoop at an 80% conversion rate?

Fact is, LeBron scores more than Kobe with better efficiency. Let's take a look at their Playoff scoring:

Kobe played 220 games and LeBron is at 158. Kobe has 13 40+ PPG games (6%) and LeBron has 12 (7.6%). Kobe has 88 30+ PPG games (40%) and LeBron has 68 (43%).


LeBron's competition isn't significantly better than Wilt's (it's much weaker than Kobe's), and for most of his career he scored with his insane athleticism/size. The guy had a broken jump shot and the smart teams -- the Western teams -- exploited it.
So, why did Kobe suck balls in the Finals? The same teams which LeBron routinely demolished. There's not much difference between LeBron's performance against the West teams and East teams. As a matter of FACT, the dude was better against the no defense West teams, than the East teams. Dude had 2/5 (LOL!) bad series against WC teams, and if you include RS, he puts up better stats against WC teams.

'07 - 22/7/7/1/1 on 43% TS
'11 - 18/7/7/2/1 on 54% TS
'12 - 29/10/7/2/1 on 56% TS
'13 - 25/11/7/2/1 on 53% TS
'14 - 28/8/4/2/1 on 68% TS


LeBron played on mediocre to garbage ass teams, when he was in Cleveland. Even in Miami, he had a stacked team for ONE year, while Duncan/Kobe had really good teams and a top 1-3 GOAT coach for essentially their entire careers (bad-mediocre teams for ~3 seasons). That's a FACT, BTW. He had a really good team in '11 (not gonna dispute that at all) and choked his ass off. Other than that, the teams which LeBron was on were not too impressive.

[SexSymbol]

Russell - winning/defense
Wilt - being a circus act
Kareem - longevity
Magic - passing
Bird - all-around game/toughness
Jordan - Scoring
Hakeem - post-moves
Shaq - physical domination
Duncan - shyness
Kobe - Heart
LeBron - athletic prowess

Russell, Duncan, Kobe are the best leaders

[G.O.A.T]

Russell - winning/defense
Wilt - being a circus act
Kareem - longevity
Magic - passing
Bird - all-around game/toughness
Jordan - Scoring
Hakeem - post-moves
Shaq - physical domination
Duncan - shyness
Kobe - Heart
LeBron - athletic prowess

Russell, Duncan, Kobe are the best leaders

What elevates Kobe to that class of leader for you? Why do you consider him a better leader than Magic?

[aj1987]

Can you qualify this please? As a poster above said, Kareem didn't anchor a legendary defensive team (Duncan did it for a decade)
Out of 20 seasons, KAJ's teams were out of the the top 10 defensively only thrice. When he was on the Bucks, they were elite defensively. Most people believe that he would've won a couple of DPOY awards, if they existed back then. Also, he was fighting for All-NBA Defensive teams against the likes of Wilt, Nate, Walton, etc.



he doesn't block shots or rebound at a higher rate
You do realize that the blocks for the first four years of his career do not exist, right? Still, over a 20 year career, KAJ averaged 2.6 BPG and Duncan is at 2.2. Since they were recorded, KAJ had 3,189 blocks in 1,239 games. Duncan has 2,791 in 1,254 games.

11.2 rebounds vs Duncan's 11.1. Heck, till age 37, KAJ had 12.7 rebounds a game.



he was considered lazy on that end at certain points of his career (generally around his days with Magic).
Dude was 33 when Magic came into the league. Made All-Def First team twice and 2nd team once.


Duncan has better DPOY voting (I believe), more All-Defensive Teams.
DPOY started in '83. KAJ would've won a couple (according to a lot of people) if they started it earlier.


Kareem was considered a very good, borderline great defender, relative to the load he had to carry on offense Duncan is considered a top 10 all-time defender.
:oldlol:

Sure, whatever makes you happy.

[G.O.A.T]

When you are looking at block and rebound numbers for Kareem and Duncan you should look at league ranks above raw numbers and/or adjust for pace. Russell and Wilt were blocking 5-8 shots per game up through the sixties. Almost no one did after, the game changed.

Kareem was not an elite defensive player after 1977 IMO, his effort and energy levels on defense started to steadily drop after that.

My belief, without research today, is that a peak Kareem was a better defender than a peak Duncan by a slight margin, but over their entire careers Duncan's defensive impact was greater.

[DatAsh]

you keep proving how out of wack you are. first i school you on the shaq/duncan thread, now again.

no way is kareem a better interior defender than duncan or even wilt. that claim is so retarded.

can you please back it up?

and how is lebron a better leader than bird or duncan? his huddle speeches are pathetic, and he leaves a bad taste everywhere he goes. he made bosh's game redundant ..

can you please back it up?

I don't really have a problem with his list. Kareem over Duncan/Wilt is kinda weird, but people see things differently. I don't think Kareem had the defensive consistency of Duncan nor do I think he was the defensive juggernaut Wilt was at his peak, but he was still a world class defender for almost a decade.

As for the leadership, it's so subjective anyway. We're just going off what we've heard/read, but we're missing a huge portion of the picture. What I will say about Lebron is that he seems like an uplifting guy to be around, and players seem to enjoy playing with him. People are generally better at doing whatever it is they're doing when they're in a good mood. I also see him leading huddles during timeouts.

I don't really agree with Lebron over Bird as a passer, but for someone who probably hasn't seen a lot of Bird, I can see where they could come to that conclusion. Overall, they're at least close.

[DatAsh]

Scoring
Jordan
Kareem
Wilt
___________
Shaq
Kobe
Bird
LeBron
Hakeem
___________
Duncan
Russell

Passing
Magic
__________
Bird
LeBron
__________
Jordan
Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Kobe
__________
Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem

Defense
Russell
_________
Hakeem
Wilt
Duncan
_________
Jordan
Kareem
Kobe
Lebron
Shaq
________
Bird
Magic

Leadership
Russell
Magic
__________
Duncan
Jordan
Bird
_________
Kobe
LeBron
Kareem
Hakeem
Shaq
Wilt

I respect your opinion, so I'd like to hear your reasoning for:

Kareem over Wilt as a scorer
Kareem and Wilt over Shaq as a scorer(and on a different tier)
Russell, Wilt, and Kareem over Kobe as a passer
Jordan over Kareem as a defender

[G.O.A.T]

I respect your opinion, so I'd like to hear your reasoning for:

Kareem over Wilt as a scorer
Kareem and Wilt over Shaq as a scorer(and on a different tier)
Russell, Wilt, and Kareem over Kobe as a passer
Jordan over Kareem as a defender

Thanks for considering my opinions worth explanation. I'd be happy to oblige, but I should note that I'd be find if you or anyone else wanted to swap the aforementioned orders. Be that as it is...

Kareem over Wilt as a scorer because he has the greatest offensive weapon of all-time, the sky hook, an automatic two points. Wilt was a better peak scorer, but as he got older he became less and less of an offensive monster whereas Kareem's scoring was the last of his weapons to expire or even dwindle. Wilt was a great scorer because when he got to the game that's what coaches wanted him to do. Once he really found his niche, it was as more of an overall great player, whereas Kareem was always an offense first guy. As close as they are, Kareem's huge edge as a foul shooter is what seals it for me. Wilt's limited and used his fadeaway (a shot which he as very good at) too much because he didn't want to be fouled. Kareem had no such worries.

As to why both are a tier above Shaq...Shaq could only score one way. He's as much of a liability at the line as Wilt and never displayed dominance over his peers to rival him as a scorer. (Only Jordan did)

I think I might be wrong to separate them into different tiers, I'd have to really look at the numbers, but I know I want Wilt and Kareem above Shaq because while all three were great scorers, Wilt had a higher peak and Kareem had greater longevity.

Russell, Wilt and Kareem represent three of the ten greatest passing centers of all-time. Kobe is a slightly above average passing guard. The three bigs averaged comparable assists to Bryant in less generous eras for assists with far less ball control. Bryant has always shot too much. As great of a scorer as he is, he's always seen himself as even better. He has an awful missed field goal to assist ratio, and most importantly those big men all add an element as outlet passers that Kobe does not, and all are very good at it. The hockey assist. The pass before the pass is as much the forte of these giants as anyone.

Jordan over Kareem because Jordan was always a very good to great defender. Kareem was average to below average for the last 40% of his career. By 1978 his reputation for not running down the court was so prevalent that there is a joke made about it during his cameo in Airplane! The Movie. By the early eighties the Lakers were looking for a defensive back-up for Kareem (eventually found it in Thompson, tried Swen Nater first) because he was becoming a liability.

Thanks for the inquiry.

[LAZERUSS]

Only MJ could rival Chamberlain as a scorer. And for those that do zero research, a "scoring" Chamberlain, from 60-66, not only averaged 40 ppg in that regular season span, he also averaged 33 ppg in his 52 post-season games...a whopping 30 of which were against Russell. And a full 20% of those games (11) were 40+ point games (and FIVE of those were against Russell.) Oh, and his putrid roster was so bad in '63, that he missed the post-season altogether, in a season in which he averaged 45 ppg on 53% shooting.

And by now most everyone here should know this...

Wilt ranks THIRD, all-time, in ppg in "must-win" playoff games, with a 31.1 ppg average, which is just behind Lebron's 31.8 ppg, and MJ's 31.3 ppg. Furthermore, Wilt had THREE of his FOUR 50+ point playoff games in a "must-win" game, which BTW, is THREE more than any other "GOAT."

And even Chamberlain's career .522 post-season FG% is deceptive. It came against post-season NBA's that shot about .435 overall in that same span...or nearly 9% over the league average. And even more remarkable, of course, was the fact that Wilt faced a PEAK Kareem in 11 playoff games; Reed (at center...and one of those was a PEAK Reed) in 10 games; Bellamy in 10; Thurmond in 17; and of course, Russell, in ... 49 games.

And one of the most important aspects of Wilt's post-season career is often overlooked...


had Wilt been fortunate enough to have faced the Lakers in the post-season, from '60 thru '68, and he likely would own many playoff (or perhaps Finals) scoring records. And we are not talking about one or two "small samples" either, but rather, his entire H2H play against LA (and Minny) from '60 thru '68...and in seasons of between 7 to 12 H2H games.

Keep in mind that Russell WAS fortunate enough to have faced the Lakers FIVE times in the post-season in that span (actually six, but in the last one, he faced Wilt, and as expected, did absolutely nothing offensively), and it was against LA in which he elevated his playoff scoring and FG%. In fact, remove the Lakers from his post-seasons, and his offensive production would have dropped considerably.

Here were Russell's numbers against LA in those five series:

'62:

Russell averaged 18.9 ppg on a .457 FG% in his regular season against the NBA.

Against LA in the Finals: 22.9 ppg on a .543 FG%. Which included a game seven of 30 points and 40 rebounds.

BTW, against Wilt in the '62 EDF's: 22.0 ppg on a .399 FG%


'63:

Russell averaged 16.8 ppg on a .432 FG% in his regular season.

Against LA in the Finals: 20 ppg on a .467 FG%


'65:

Russell averaged 14.1 ppg on a .438 FG% against the NBA.

Against LA in the Finals: 17.8 ppg on a .702 FG% (yes, .702.)

BTW, against Wilt in the EDF's: 15.6 ppg on a .447 FG%


'66:

Russell averaged 12.9 ppg on a .415 FG% against the NBA.

Against LA in the Finals: 23.6 ppg on a .538 FG%

BTW, against Wilt in the EDF's: 14.0 ppg on a .423 FG%


'68:

Russell averaged 12.5 ppg on a .425 FG% against the NBA

Against LA in the Finals: 17.3 ppg on a .430 FG%

BTW, against Wilt in the EDF's: 13.7 ppg on a .440 FG%


Oh, and here were Russell's stats in the '69 Finals against Wilt:

Regular season against the NBA: 9.9 ppg on a .433 FG%

Against Wilt in the Finals: 9.0 ppg on a .397 FG%


Again, had Wilt faced the Lakers in any of his nine seasons in the league from '60 thru '68, and he likely would own at least some, (if not a vast majority), playoff and perhaps Finals, scoring records (and perhaps FG% records, as well, since Russell shot .702 against LA in '65.)

And once again, in Wilt's regular seasons, he was facing LA between 7 to 12 games in each season, with an average of about 10.

Also keep in mind that the Lakers were in the Western Conference, and Wilt only had two seasons in the Western Conference from '60 thru '68, and in one of those, his team was so bad, that he didn't make the playoffs, despite a 44.8 ppg season on .528 shooting.


Ok, here we go:

'59-60:

Against the entire NBA that season: 37.6 ppg on a .461 FG%

Against the Lakers in 9 H2H's: 36.8 ppg on a .430 FG%

High games of 41, 41, 41, 45, and 52.


'60-61:

Against the entire NBA: 38.4 ppg on a .509 FG%

Against the Lakers in 10 H2H's: 40.1 ppg on a .506 FG%

High games were 41, 41, 43, 44, 46, and 56 points.


'61-62:

Against the entire NBA: 50.4 ppg on a .506 FG%

Against LA in 9 H2H games: 51.6 ppg on a .503 FG%

High games of 48, 56, 57, 60, 60, and 78 (with 43 rebounds.)


'62-63: Against the entire NBA: 44.8 ppg on a .528 FG%

Against LA in 12 H2Hs: 48.6 ppg on a .541 FG%

High games of 40, 40, 42, 53, 63, and 72 points.


'63-64: Against the entire NBA: 36.9 ppg on a .524 FG%

Against LA in 12 H2Hs: 44.3 ppg on a .484 FG%

High games of 40, 41, 47, 49, 50, 55, and 59 points.


'64-65: Against the entire NBA: 34.7 ppg on a .510 FG%

Against LA in 8 H2Hs: 29.9 ppg on a .476 FG%

High games of 40, 40, and 41 points.


'65-66: Against the entire NBA: 33.5 ppg on a .540 FG%

Against LA in 10 H2Hs: 40.8 ppg on a .559 FG%

High games of 42, 49, 53, and 65 points.


'66-67: Against the entire NBA: 24.1 ppg on a .683 FG%

Against LA in 9 H2Hs: 26.4 ppg on a .759 FG%

High games of 32, 37, and 39 points.


'67-68: Against the entire NBA: 24.3 ppg on a .595 FG%

Against LA in 7 H2Hs: 28.1 ppg on a .638 FG%

High games of 31, 32, 35, and 53 points.


Overall, in those 86 games:

40 Point Games: 42

50 Point Games: 19

60 Point Games: 7

70 Point Games: 2

High game of 78 points.

Continued...

[G.O.A.T]

Instead of continuing and clogging another thread with Spam, just edit your first post to link us to one of the other 10,000 identical unsolicited posts on the topic you have.

That way those who want to know the way the truth and the light can follow you and those that are tired of your bullshit can move along.

[HOoopCityJones]

People are severely underrating Kobe in the Defense department.

He doesn't have those defensive accolades for nothing.

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing, "the bashers" completely discount Chamberlain's regular season accomplishments, which include literally HUNDREDS of SCORING records. Yep, 80+ game regular seasons are nowhere near as important as as few as THREE post-season games, in a season.

Of course, had Chamberlain had the "good fortune", as Hakeem did, to get wiped out in the first round EIGHT times, and his post-season scoring and efficiency numbers likely would have been considerably higher.


As examples, in Wilt's fist eight post-seasons, and in his first round, he averaged

38.7 ppg

37.0 ppg

37.0 ppg

38.6 ppg and on .559 shooting (in a post-season NBA of 105.8 ppg on .420 shooting)

27.8 ppg (and then 30.1 ppg, on .555 shooting, and against Russell)

28.0 ppg

28.0 ppg (and a great example of FG% at .617 in a post-season at .424, to go along with 27 rpg, and 11 apg.!))

25.5 ppg (and on .584 shooting, while his opposing center, Bellamy was at 20.0 on .421 shooting.)

Even in his 11th season, and only four months removed from major knee surgery, Chamberlain put up a first round of 23.7 ppg., 20.3 rpg, and .549.

And, in his 71-72 post-season, he had a 14.5 ppg, 20.8 rpg, .629 first round series (and in an NBA post-season of .446.)


But again, as far as REGULAR season scoring, and in 80+ games per season, there is no other player within the other side of the galaxy of Chamberlain. I could (and have) posted just unfathomable scoring numbers in his career, and it would take several pages here to present them all.

But it must be noted that as late as his 32nd birthday, Chamberlain was leading the league in scoring, and in an NBA that had rookie Kareem in it. Furthermore, just the year before that, Wilt hung the last two of his career 32 60+ point games (and against centers that Kareem would face multiple times in his career), which was two more than Kareem would put up in his entire 20 season NBA career.

In fact, a PRIME Chamberlain was FAR more dominant against the same centers that a PRIME Kareem (in fact, PEAK KAJ) would face in his career. A prime Wilt just slaughtered Dierking, Imhoff, Reed, Thurmond, and Bellamy. Again, FAR more than a PEAK Kareem did.

Wilt had a 12 game season against Reed, in which he outscored Reed by a collective margin of 39-22 ppg, and he did so on a .532 FG% (in a league that shot an eFG% of .426. Included were games that he pasted Reed by margins of 46-25, 41-8, 52-23, and 58-28. BTW, Kareem's high game in his career H2H's with Reed... 41 points. Oh, and in his 68-69 seasonal H2H's with Reed, a Chamberlain who shot much less, outscored Reed by a 28-20 ppg margin, and shot .686 in the process (and this was arguably Reed's greatest season, too.)

I won't get into all of the MANY 50+ point games (including several 60+ games, which included, yes, a 100 point game) that Wilt hung on Dierking and Imhoff. Needless to say, Kareem faced them mutliple times, and again, his high game against each was 41 points. Chamberlain had entire seasons against them both that were much higher.

Thurmond? A PRIME-to-PEAK Kareem faced a full-time Thurmond in some 40 career H2H games. He had a TOTAL of FIVE 30+ point games against Nate, with a HIGH of 34 points. Oh, and in those career H2H's, Kareem shot... get this... .447 against Thurmond.

How about a PRIME Wilt vs Thurmond? In their first 13 H2H games, Chamberlain had SIX of 30+, including games in which he outscored Thurmond by margins of 38-15 and 45-13. And against a PEAK Thurmond, in his 66-67 season, Chamberlain averaged 20.8 ppg on ... get this... a .633 FG%! BTW, Nate averaged 13 ppg on a... get this... .320 FG% against Wilt in those games. Then in their six post-season H2H's that season, Wilt outscored Thurmond, 18 ppg to 14 ppg, and outshot this PEAK Thurmond by a staggering .560 to .343 FG%. Oh, Kareem played against Nate in three straight post-season series, and shot .486, .405, and .428 against him. Wilt outshot Thurmond from the field in his three post-season series against Nate, by margins of .500 to .392, .611 to .373, and .560 to .343.

Bellamy? This is really unfathomable. A PRIME Kareem faced a fading Bellamy in 25 career H2H games...and his three highest scoring games against Bells were 41, 39, and 35 points. How about Wilt? He had two straight seasons, covering 20 H2H games, in which he averaged...here it comes... 48 ppg against a PEAK Bellamy. Included in those 20 games were THREE games of 60+, with a staggering game of 73 points, on 60% shooting, and with 36 rebounds. Hell, he was still plastering Bellamy late in his career, as well. Overall, Wilt had SEVERAL seasons of 30+, and then later in his career, 20+ ppg seasons on as high as .709 shooting against Bellamy. And in their six game playoff series in '68, Chamberlain outscored Bellamy, per game, 25.5 to 20.0 ppg, and outshot him from the floor by an eye-popping .584 to .421 margin (keep in mind that Bellamy shot .541 against the NBA that season, as well.)

Even a 35-36 year old Wilt, in his LAST two seasons, was still capable of some smh numbers. He faced the 6-11 HOFer, Bob Lanier, in 11 straight games in that span (and keep in mind that Lanier's greatest season was in 71-72), and all he could do was average 24 ppg on a ...wait for it... .784 FG%!

Of course, a PRIME Chamberlain was SHELLING RUSSELL, as well. He had seasons of 38 ppg, 38 ppg, and even 40 ppg against him (and keep in mind they were from 10-13 games in each season, too.) And while his scoring numbers dropped against Russell, he had entire post-seasons of 28, 29, 30, 31, and 34 ppg against him...and shot an even higher FG% against Russell in the post-season, than in his regular seasons in that span.

In perhaps the most dominant playoff series of all time, Chamberlain took his rag-tag 40-40 Sixers, to a game seven, one point loss, against Russell's 62-18 Celtics, in a series in which he just CRUSHED Russell. He outscored Russell, per game, 30.1 ppg to 15.6 ppg; outrbounded Russell, per game, 31.4 rpg to 25.2 rpg; and outshot Russell from the field by a .555 to .447 margin. How impressive was that FG%? It came in a post-season NBA that shot an eFG% of just .429. Move that post-season into the 2014 NBA post-season, which shot an eFG% of .505, and it would translate to a .... this is incredible... a .653 eFG%! Again...against a PEAK RUSSELL!

A PRIME "scoring" Wilt was simply, the most dominant scorer of all-time.

[G.O.A.T]

People are severely underrating Kobe in the Defense department.

He doesn't have those defensive accolades for nothing.

From 2005-07 the Lakers were one of the worst defensive teams in the league despite Kobe being a first team all-defensive player in his physical prime. No matter how good his defense is, he's not going to impact the game on defense as much as any of those all-time great big men. He belongs over Magic and Bird and has a case over Shaq and Kareem, but no one else.

[LAZERUSS]

Rebounding?

If anyone has Russell ranked high in this category, well, then Wilt is by FAR, the greatest rebounder of all-time.

Chamberlain and Russell battled in 143 career H2H games, and Wilt outrebounded Russell by a 92-43-8 margin in those H2H's, and overall, by FIVE PER GAME. Included were their EIGHT post-season series, in which Wilt outrebounded Russell in EVERY one of them. He even outrebounded Russell in three post-season series by margins of 30 to 25 rpg, 31-25 rpg, and a staggering 32-23 margin.

And BTW, Chamberlain holds both the regular season single game rebounding record of 55, and the post-season rebounding record of 41...which both came against RUSSELL. In fact, in that 55 rebound game, he outrebounded Russell by an eye-popping 55-19 margin.

Oh, and Russell is the career post-season leading rebounder, at 24.9 rpg (Wilt is right behind at 24.5 rpg), BUT, when Russell retired in '69, Wilt was the leader at that point, at 26.3 rpg.

Of course, Chamberlain just flat-out outrebounded EVERYONE. In his 29 post-season series, he was only outrebounded by another player in ONE, (albeit, he was never outrebounded by another CENTER in any of them), and that was by a 21-20 rpg margin. BUT, the two would go at it as CENTERS in the '72 Finals, and a 35 year old Wilt, averaging 47 mpg, outrebounded the 31 year old Lucas, who played 46 mpg, by a 23-10 rpg margin.

Even as late as his LAST post-season, covering 17 playoff games, Wilt averaged 22.5 rpg...which came in a post-season NBA that averaged 50.6 rpg. That was the LAST time ANY player ever averaged more than 17.3 rpg in a post-season (KAJ, in his 11 playoff games in 76-77, averaged 17.3 rpg...which is the next highest series since.)

Again...there was Wilt...and then everyone else was miles behind.

[dubeta]

I just noticed that LeBron is the 2nd shortest player in the top 10 (top 10 NOT top 11)


That goes to show you that LeBron didnt have the size and physique of the other GOATs and is still a top 10 GOAT :applause: :applause:

[LAZERUSS]

Defense?

Russell is the clear-cut leader in that category, but Wilt is next. And a PRIME Chamberlain was nearly Russell's equal. Aside from Russell, Wilt has the next two highest "Defensive Win Shares" seasonal marks. And to be honest, his 66-67 season mark of "only" 7.03 simply HAS to be an error. His Sixers not only ran away with the scoring crown, they were third in ppg allowed. Furthermore, in the post-season, Wilt held Russell to a .358 FG%, and Thurmond to a .343 FG%.

Of course, Chamberlain ROUTINELY reduced his OPPOSING centers to just AWFUL efficiencies.

For example, Wilt limited Russell to post-season series of .399, .397, .386, and .358. He also held Russell to regular season H2H's (covering 8-12 games) of .398, .393 (in Russell's career high regular season in which he shot .467), .367, .366, .340, .301, and an unbelievable... .283!

How about Thurmond? In their three post-season series, Chamberlain outshot Nate by margins of .500 to .392; .611 to .373; and .560 to .343. And in his known regular season H2H's, he held Thurmond to seasonal H2H's of .351, .342, and .320.

Wilt also held Red Kerr to two playoff series in which Kerr shot .376 and .294.

And in their '68 six game playoff series, Chamberlain outshot Bellamy ny a .584 to .421 margin. And again, Bellamy had shot .541 against the NBA that year in the regular season.

Oh, and how about a PEAK Kareem? Overall, in their 28 career H2H's (27 of which came after Wilt's knee surgery, and from age 34 to 36), he held Kareem to a .464 FG%. In 18 of those, he held Kareem under 50%, and in SIX of those, under 40%.

In their two playoff series' H2H's, Chamberlain held Kareem, who had shot .577 and .574 against the NBA, to series of .481 and .457. Furthermore, in the last four games of that '72 WCF's, Wilt held KAJ to .414 shooting. In their two series clinching games, Wilt collectively outshot KAJ by a .545 to .383 margin (18-33 to 23-60.)

And in their last TEN straight H2H games, Chamberlain held a PEAK Kareem to .434 shooting.


Blocked shots? The OVRWHELMING evidence suggests that Wilt was the game's greatest shot-blocker, and by a substantial margin over Russell. In fact, in their known H2H's, Wilt held an enormous advantage over Russell. Harvey Pollack, the HOF statistician, had Wilt with entire SEASONS of 10+ bpg. And how about this? In Wilt's LAST season, in '73, and at age 36, he averaged 5.4 bpg. Just 12 years later Eaton would set the "official" season record at 5.6 bpg. BTW, while Elmore Smith holds the "official" single game record of 17, Wilt had a KNOWN block game of 23 in '68. He also had educated estimates with FOUR games of 30+ (and what is probably the highest game of all-time, at 32.)

Overall, Russell is #1 and Chamberlain is #2, but again, a PRIME Wilt was close. Thurmond would probably be a distant third, and then after that, the drop-off is pretty significant.

[DatAsh]

Kareem over Wilt as a scorer because he has the greatest offensive weapon of all-time, the sky hook, an automatic two points. Wilt was a better peak scorer, but as he got older he became less and less of an offensive monster whereas Kareem's scoring was the last of his weapons to expire or even dwindle. Wilt was a great scorer because when he got to the game that's what coaches wanted him to do. Once he really found his niche, it was as more of an overall great player, whereas Kareem was always an offense first guy. As close as they are, Kareem's huge edge as a foul shooter is what seals it for me. Wilt's limited and used his fadeaway (a shot which he as very good at) too much because he didn't want to be fouled. Kareem had no such worries.


I wrote my argument against this and then erased it, as ultimately I think you're right here.

The point I was going to make was that I disagree with you when you say that Wilt "as he got older" "became less and less of an offensive monster". Rather, I think that as he got older, Wilt simply focused less and less on on his scoring. He - and his coaches - realized that he could help his team more by cutting back on the FGAs and focusing more on defense, rebounding, passing, and getting his points within the flow of the offense. I think Wilt could have averaged 45-50ppg for the entire 60's decade had that been his goal. His scoring ability didn't really drop off as much as his mentality changed.

I guess the reason I must concede your point is that I think it's important to judge players by what they actually did, rather than what they could have done. I'm also sane enough to acknowledge that there are probably several other all time greats that could have averaged 45-50ppg if given the green light to shoot 40 times a game.


As to why both are a tier above Shaq...Shaq could only score one way. He's as much of a liability at the line as Wilt and never displayed dominance over his peers to rival him as a scorer. (Only Jordan did)

I disagree with you strongly in that Shaq could only score in one way. His range was very limited(so was Wilt's), but he had a beautiful post game with several very effective moves. In terms of scoring, I value post game above all else for these types of players, and I can't really think of any player that had a more effective low post game than Shaq - including Hakeem and McHale.

Kareem had spots on the floor where he'd give you a better chance of scoring than Shaq - and he wasn't a liability at the line, but Shaq also had spots on the floor where he'd give you a better chance of scoring. I think I just value Shaq's low post dominance over Kareem's extra range for that type of player.

With Wilt, it's actually tough for me to point to any one area of the floor where I think he'd give you a better chance of scoring than Shaq, and the areas I would favor Wilt are areas from which I wouldn't want Wilt taking a shot anyway.


I think I might be wrong to separate them into different tiers, I'd have to really look at the numbers, but I know I want Wilt and Kareem above Shaq because while all three were great scorers, Wilt had a higher peak and Kareem had greater longevity.

I know you're not into judging players based on how they affected team statistics, but Shaq was having a huge impact offensively on all his teams. He was rivaling the impact of some of the best guards. It's difficult to tell with Kareem, as he didn't team hop and played with with two of the best offensive players ever in Oscar Robertson and Magic Johnson, but the team statistics would suggest that Shaq was having a larger offensive impact than Wilt.

While I agree with you that Wilt had a better peak than Shaq, I see it more as a result of his defense, rebounding, and passing than I do his scoring. I also think people underrate Shaq's longevity.


Russell, Wilt and Kareem represent three of the ten greatest passing centers of all-time. Kobe is a slightly above average passing guard. The three bigs averaged comparable assists to Bryant in less generous eras for assists with far less ball control. Bryant has always shot too much. As great of a scorer as he is, he's always seen himself as even better. He has an awful missed field goal to assist ratio, and most importantly those big men all add an element as outlet passers that Kobe does not, and all are very good at it. The hockey assist. The pass before the pass is as much the forte of these giants as anyone.

Russell and Wilt especially were two of the greatest passing bigmen ever, and you bring up a good point about their outlet passes, though I see that partly as a product of their rebounding. I think Kobe could could have made those passes; it's the rebounding he couldn't do.

Part of my issue here I guess is that I really don't see some huge gap between Jordan and Kobe as passers. Jordan had a better sense when to pass, and while I'll admit that's not an insignificant advantage, Kobe was every bit the passer Jordan was when it comes to the actual act of passing the ball. I've seen very little of Russell, and only a moderate amount of Wilt, but there are quite a few passes I've seen Jordan and Kobe make that I just can't see those big guys making.

As to your other point here about Russell, Wilt, and Kareem being better passers relative to position, I agree with you, and if you consider something similar to points over average replacement, then you may actually have a point. Given that the average guard is likely going to be a better passer than the average center, it's possible that a team as a whole would lose more by replacing Russell/Wilt/Kareem with an average center than they would by replacing Kobe with an average guard. I'll have to think about that.


Jordan over Kareem because Jordan was always a very good to great defender. Kareem was average to below average for the last 40% of his career. By 1978 his reputation for not running down the court was so prevalent that there is a joke made about it during his cameo in Airplane! The Movie. By the early eighties the Lakers were looking for a defensive back-up for Kareem (eventually found it in Thompson, tried Swen Nater first) because he was becoming a liability.

By saying "last 40% of his career" it's almost like you're penalizing him for his longevity. My logic here - and maybe it's faulty - is that Kareem had 6-7 years where he was having more defensive impact that any of Jordan's years. Jordan only played 13 years with the Bulls. I think it's close(I actually had Jordan ahead of Kareem and then switched them before I posted).