Remember when Obama won the Nobel Prize for Peace?

[Nick Young]

Remember when Barack Obama, the same man who killed more civilians and sent more American troops to war and spent more on the military then any president in the last 30 years, was awarded the Nobel Prize for Peace before he even got in to office?

Does that award even mean anything anymore?
:roll:
http://newobserveronline.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Nobel-peace-drone-Obama11.jpg
http://noarmycanstopanidea.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/obama-bush-warmonger.jpg
http://hulyitodoboz.prae.hu/prae/upload/obama_warmonger01.jpg

Any people still claim to support one of the biggest warmongers in American presidential history?

[KingBeasley08]

That was a big joke then. An even bigger one now

[fiddy]

Does that award even mean anything anymore?
No, ever since they gave it to Henry Kissinger.

[Patrick Chewing]

The award is a joke and people shouldn't pay attention to it.


http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/image_content_width/hash/09/e8/09e882dd4837a3cc4e366c077a7edfdc.jpg

[nathanjizzle]

i think you are delegating what bush has done to the obama administration.

[Nick Young]

i think you are delegating what bush has done to the obama administration.
Obama killed more civilians, sent more American troops in to war, spent more on the military and killed more people with drone strikes, including the targeted assassination of American citizens without trial.

Bush didn't do that. Obama did.

[Inactive]

Obama killed more civilians, sent more American troops in to war, spent more on the military and killed more people with drone strikes, including the targeted assassination of American citizens without trial.

Bush didn't do that. Obama did.What? Numbers please.

[Nick Young]

What? Numbers please.
Why do you want numbers? You are only going to make excuses for Obama and blame everything on Bush, doesn't matter what numbers I show you:roll: :roll: :roll:

[ThePhantomCreep]

Obama killed more civilians, sent more American troops in to war, spent more on the military and killed more people with drone strikes, including the targeted assassination of American citizens without trial.

Bush didn't do that. Obama did.

Ah, with drone strikes. I knew the Fox News spin job was in there somewhere.

[Inactive]

Why do you want numbers?Because more civilians were killed, and more troops were sent overseas during the Bush administration.

Obama is responsible for the expansion of the drone program, and killing of an American citizen turned terrorist recruiter. Bush is responsible for the war in Iraq, and the civilians, and U.S personnel killed in that conflict.

[Patrick Chewing]

Ah, with drone strikes. I knew the Fox News spin job was in there somewhere.


What spin? It's the truth, numbnuts.

[Nick Young]

Ah, with drone strikes. I knew the Fox News spin job was in there somewhere.
Fox News breh?
http://commonsenseconspiracy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/drone-strikes.jpg

http://www.frugal-cafe.com/public_html/frugal-blog/frugal-cafe-blogzone/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/drone-attacks-deaths-bush-vs-obama.jpg

[Nick Young]

Because more civilians were killed, and more troops were sent overseas during the Bush administration.

Obama is responsible for the expansion of the drone program, and killing of an American citizen turned terrorist recruiter. Bush is responsible for the war in Iraq, and the civilians, and U.S personnel killed in that conflict.
Hmm, educate yourself breh, if you believe the bolded to be true:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

http://warincontext.org/2009/10/13/more-us-troops-deployed-overseas-under-obama-than-bush/

The deployment of the support troops to Afghanistan brings the total increase approved by Obama to 34,000. The buildup has raised the number of U.S. troops deployed to the war zones of Iraq and Afghanistan above the peak during the Iraq “surge” that President George W. Bush ordered, officials said. [continued...]



http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2012/09/11/more-killing-in-obamas-war-on-terror-than-bushs-war/

More Killing in Obama’s ‘War on Terror’ Than Bush’s ‘War’



http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/obamavsbush

575 US troops died in Afghanistan during the Bush presidency. By August 18, 2010, following two troop surges initiated by President Obama, that number had doubled. Today, over 1500 US troops have died in Afghanistan since President Obama took office—and yet, little in that war-torn country has changed.

These numbers should give us pause. While the Administration has publicly conceded that there is no military solution in Afghanistan, and claimed that it supports 'Afghan-led reconciliation', its policy on the ground is marked by a refusal to establish a timetable for full military withdrawal even after misleading Americans into thinking that all US troops would be out of Afghanistan by the end of 2014.

[Inactive]

Hmm, educate yourself breh, if you believe the bolded to be true:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
[QUOTE]The deployment of the support troops to Afghanistan brings the total increase approved by Obama to 34,000. The buildup has raised the number of U.S. troops deployed to the war zones of Iraq and Afghanistan above the peak during the Iraq

[ThePhantomCreep]

Fox News breh?
http://commonsenseconspiracy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/drone-strikes.jpg

http://www.frugal-cafe.com/public_html/frugal-blog/frugal-cafe-blogzone/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/drone-attacks-deaths-bush-vs-obama.jpg

It's a pitiful spinjob, trying to paint Obama as "worse than Bush".

Lettuce discuss TOTAL civilian deaths--Bush's epic blunder in Iraq produced an estimated 100k of those. I guess those don't count since the cause of death wasn't a drone. :facepalm

[Nick Young]

It's a pitiful spinjob, trying to paint Obama as "worse than Bush".

Lettuce discuss TOTAL civilian deaths--Bush's epic blunder in Iraq produced an estimated 100k of those. I guess those don't count since the cause of death wasn't a drone. :facepalm
In terms of deaths caused, Americans who died under Obama, and carpet bomb strikes all over the world, yes Obama is much worse then bush.

In terms of military spending, adjusted for inflation, Obama is worse then Bush.

http://mises.org/daily/5231/On-War-Obama-has-been-Worse-than-Bush

You are the one who is getting 'spinjobbed' by the liberal media, dumbass. One day you will realize that there is no great difference between republicans and democrats. One day you will accept the fact that your boy Obama is a bigger war criminal then George W. Bush:roll: :roll: :roll:

[russwest0]

Fox News breh?
http://commonsenseconspiracy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/drone-strikes.jpg

http://www.frugal-cafe.com/public_html/frugal-blog/frugal-cafe-blogzone/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/drone-attacks-deaths-bush-vs-obama.jpg

:applause:

Obama's policy in regards to drones is notoriously horrific. It has nothing to do with fox news.

[joe]

Obama exists because American society is sick. There is so little love, kindness, warmth here. We praise aggression and weed out empathy. We dehumanize foreigners and their culture. We are insatiably greedy. We look down on each other. Hatred, meanness. That is the American way.

These people around the world being killed by American troops, shame on our culture and then our government. It is beyond sickening.

[SunsN07BookIt]

Obama exists because American society is sick. There is so little love, kindness, warmth here. We praise aggression and weed out empathy. We dehumanize foreigners and their culture. We are insatiably greedy. We look down on each other. Hatred, meanness. That is the American way.

These people around the world being killed by American troops, shame on our culture and then our government. It is beyond sickening.


Yeah umm ok Sparky, go to one of these 3rd world countries who are supposedly victims of America and see how much love, kindness and warmth you find there, then get back to us....if you survive.

[RidonKs]

Obama exists because American society is sick. There is so little love, kindness, warmth here. We praise aggression and weed out empathy. We dehumanize foreigners and their culture. We are insatiably greedy. We look down on each other. Hatred, meanness. That is the American way.

These people around the world being killed by American troops, shame on our culture and then our government. It is beyond sickening.
do you still maintain the libertarian stance as strongly as you've been espousing it for the past five years.

[CeltsGarlic]

Yeah umm ok Sparky, go to one of these 3rd world countries who are supposedly victims of America and see how much love, kindness and warmth you find there, then get back to us....if you survive.

lol they would obviously hate him cause US is attacking their country.

:hammerhead:

[Nick Young]

lol they would obviously hate him cause US is attacking their country.

:hammerhead:
Even countries we give $400,000,000 a year to and don't attack, like Egypt for example, hate us:facepalm

[Inactive]

Even countries we give $400,000,000 a year to and don't attack, like Egypt for example, hate us:facepalmYeah, or those Israelis, who only exist because of us, but still openly insult our President, and Secretary of State, while Congress sends them bags of money.

[SunsN07BookIt]

lol they would obviously hate him cause US is attacking their country.

:hammerhead:

The problem is they treat each other even worse than any ill treatment conjured up in their minds by Americans. :oldlol:

[joe]

do you still maintain the libertarian stance as strongly as you've been espousing it for the past five years.

I do and I dont. I believe that all humans have certain rights, and those rights should not be impeded on by others. So, I do not believe in forcing people to pay taxes. I definitely do not support aggressive war.

At the same time, I would not approve of a society that practiced those rights to the bare minimum level. Sure, you should be able to pay an employee whatever you want. But I think there should be a level of compassion and cooperation in society, too. A desire to help others and not just be out for yourself all the time.

[joe]

Yeah umm ok Sparky, go to one of these 3rd world countries who are supposedly victims of America and see how much love, kindness and warmth you find there, then get back to us....if you survive.

They are victims of America, in the sense that we are waging several aggressive military operations. That doesnt mean they are perfect, or that all of their problems are caused by the usa.

We have a society that praises aggression and violence. We have blood lust. And to nullify our guilt, we dehumanize people from other cultures. Many of the people we kill are completely innocent. Many of those who fight against us were INSTIGATED.

Of the few who legitimately plot to kill innocent Americans, I understand the need to fight. But that is a small number compared to the total death count.

[SunsN07BookIt]

They are victims of America, in the sense that we are waging several aggressive military operations. That doesnt mean they are perfect, or that all of their problems are caused by the usa.

We have a society that praises aggression and violence. We have blood lust. And to nullify our guilt, we dehumanize people from other cultures. Many of the people we kill are completely innocent. Many of those who fight against us were INSTIGATED.

Of the few who legitimately plot to kill innocent Americans, I understand the need to fight. But that is a small number compared to the total death count.


Until the people of those "victimized" countries stop trying to come to US, your rant is worthless. Why would so many people from those 3rd world countries be trying to immigrate to a nation that "dehumanizing" them?:rolleyes: GTFO with your crying and sobbing. Only people like you harbor self loathing "guilt". I know I don't have any, I sleep good at night.

[KevinNYC]

It's a pitiful spinjob, trying to paint Obama as "worse than Bush".

Lettuce discuss TOTAL civilian deaths--Bush's epic blunder in Iraq produced an estimated 100k of those. I guess those don't count since the cause of death wasn't a drone. :facepalm

This is really complete and total nonsense and Nick Young knows it, but still like to keep posting his bullshit. His stats only work if you leave out the Iraq war and as you point out leave out of civilians who died because it.

So you want to compare the effects of drone warfare to an occupation, you need to not ignore the 100 thousand dead, but you also need to to people fleeing a warzone. In addition to the dead and the wounded, there were millions of people displaced during the war. About 2 million refugees who fled Iraq and about 2 million internally displaced people. Iraq had 25 million people in 2003.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42430000/gif/_42430839_iraq_migr_map416.gif

If the US had the same proportion of refugees it would be equivalent to the entire NYC metropolitan area

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/78/New_York_Metropolitan_Area_Counties_2013.png

plus the entire LA metropolitan area

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/LosAngelesCAMap.gif



plus Chicago Metro

http://www.builderonline.com/Content/Resources/BOL/images/MSA/chicago-naperville-joliet-il-in-wi.jpg

Plus Dallas Forth Worth Metroplex

http://www.premetro.net/Graphics/MapColored2.jpg

[RidonKs]

I do and I dont. I believe that all humans have certain rights, and those rights should not be impeded on by others. So, I do not believe in forcing people to pay taxes. I definitely do not support aggressive war.

At the same time, I would not approve of a society that practiced those rights to the bare minimum level. Sure, you should be able to pay an employee whatever you want. But I think there should be a level of compassion and cooperation in society, too. A desire to help others and not just be out for yourself all the time.
i still think you and your "ilk" so to speak are far too obsessed with property rights which are problematic at the same time they're important.

nevertheless i'm not surprised you've mellowed out on your political agenda, even if we still disagree on fundamental points. it's good to see people honestly thinking this shit through.

[Nick Young]

This is really complete and total nonsense and Nick Young knows it, but still like to keep posting his bullshit. His stats only work if you leave out the Iraq war and as you point out leave out of civilians who died because it.
.......
dat blind defense of a bloodthirsty warmonger doe:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Aren't liberals supposed to be peace loving and against civilian deaths, instead of trying to justify them?:roll: :roll: :roll:

[ThePhantomCreep]

In terms of deaths caused, Americans who died under Obama, and carpet bomb strikes all over the world, yes Obama is much worse then bush.

In terms of military spending, adjusted for inflation, Obama is worse then Bush.

http://mises.org/daily/5231/On-War-Obama-has-been-Worse-than-Bush

You are the one who is getting 'spinjobbed' by the liberal media, dumbass. One day you will realize that there is no great difference between republicans and democrats. One day you will accept the fact that your boy Obama is a bigger war criminal then George W. Bush:roll: :roll: :roll:

Can you post an article that isn't...

A) from March 2011
B) a cherry-picking shill piece?

"Um uh....ignore the money spent on the surge, and the fact that Bush started the wars, and that the invasion of Iraq did not began until March 2003, well into Bush's first term...and Obama is worse on war spending"!

What an embarrassing hack piece.

[Nick Young]

Can you post an article that isn't...

A) from March 2011
B) a cherry-picking shill piece?

"Um uh....ignore the money spent on the surge, and the fact that Bush started the wars, and that invasion of Iraq began in March 2003...and Obama is worse in war spending"!

What an embarrassing hack piece.
dawg why are defending the warmonger Obama? Do you like war and civilian deaths or something? Why you trying to justify his murderous decision making? Is he not a war criminal on the same level as Bush who spent more on the military then Bush did?:confusedshrug:

[RidonKs]

hey nick young clearly you know a little more than your average bear about politics but how about your stop focusing in on other people's beliefs and instead start refining your own?

you're right that the obama administration is outright criminal, that it is responsible for countless unnecessary deaths, and that the nobel committee that awarded him the peace prize was ignorant to ignore that part of his record.

nevertheless, kevin is bringing up a valid point regarding your comparison with president bush. not that the comparison matters much in the bigger picture since both bush and obama catered to interests that overlap much more than they differ. but nevertheless, ignoring the iraq war and hyper focusing on drone attacks just because they're new and hip and in the news is disingenuous investigating and you know it.

[KevinNYC]

If you compare civilian deaths of drone warfare against militants to not waging against militants.

Civilian deaths
Drones>>>>>>>>no warfare
(Of course, this moral calculation is too simple because you have yet to factor in deaths of civilians from militants, see ISIS).

However, if you are waging war against militants than drones KILL LESS CIVILIANS (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/sunday-review/the-moral-case-for-drones.html)

Civilian deaths
Conventional Warfare >>Drone Warfare

[QUOTE]But one rough comparison has found that even if the highest estimates of collateral deaths are accurate, the drones kill fewer civilians than other modes of warfare.

AVERY PLAW, a political scientist at the University of Massachusetts, put the C.I.A. drone record in Pakistan up against the ratio of combatant deaths to civilian deaths in other settings. Mr. Plaw considered four studies of drone deaths in Pakistan that estimated the proportion of civilian victims at 4 percent, 6 percent, 17 percent and 20 percent respectively.

But even the high-end count of 20 percent was considerably lower than the rate in other settings, he found. When the Pakistani Army went after militants in the tribal area on the ground, civilians were 46 percent of those killed. In Israel

[joe]

Until the people of those "victimized" countries stop trying to come to US, your rant is worthless. Why would so many people from those 3rd world countries be trying to immigrate to a nation that "dehumanizing" them?:rolleyes: GTFO with your crying and sobbing. Only people like you harbor self loathing "guilt". I know I don't have any, I sleep good at night.

I don't feel guilt. I am not the one doing it or supporting it. I feel compassion and empathy for them. Imagine if your brother was killed for no reason by a missile? It is not justified.

They immigrate here for many reasons. None of those reasons discounts our own flaws and faults.

[BigBoss]

OP acts like he's clever for making this thread. Everyone KNOWS it was a joke. Congrats Captain Obvious here's a fukin cookie

http://eatinggoodly.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/chocolate-chip-cookie.jpg

[RidonKs]

I don't feel guilt. I am not the one doing it or supporting it. I feel compassion and empathy for them. Imagine if your brother was killed for no reason by a missile? It is not justified.

They immigrate here for many reasons. None of those reasons discounts our own flaws and faults.
this is an important point

you SHOULD feel guilt. you should also understand that your feeling of guilt is valid because you live in a democracy that allows you to elect your own leaders. that feeling of guilt would be much less legitimate if you lived under authoritarian rule where your government took actions you had no way to influence.

at the same time, your feeling of guilt should be shared, for the exact same reason, by your fellow citizens. and whether they accept that responsibility does not undermine its existence which is real and worthy of attention.

[secund2nun]

Obama is a war hawk period. He loves bombing countries. Anyone denying this doesn't have a clue about Obamas resume as a senator and president.

[KevinNYC]

dat blind defense of a bloodthirsty warmonger doe:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Sez the Assad fanboy.


Aren't liberals supposed to be peace loving and against civilian deaths, instead of trying to justify them?:roll: :roll: :roll:

Nope. You're confusing liberal with pacifist.

Roosevelt was a liberal, he waged and won WWII.

Gen. Marshall was a liberal, he convinced Roosevelt that US Army needed to bigger, better and smarter and it needed to happen right now. Before something like Pearl Harbor occurred. That decision ultimately led to the success at Normany on D-Day, otherwise the entire war could have gone on longer.

George Kennan was a liberal he defined the containment policy that ultimately won us the Cold War.

The concept of a just war and the limitations on war to make it just goes back at least as far as St. Augustine.

[MMM]

Not a fan of the drone program but interesting articles by Kev, but it's funny that the people who claim Obama is soft on terror a week ago are now saying he's a blood thirsty war criminal. Did they just discovered what has been going on a few moments ago???

[Nick Young]

The concept of a just war and the limitations on war to make it just goes back at least as far as St. Augustine.
is that how you'd describe obamas wars?:hammerhead: :hammerhead: :hammerhead:

[secund2nun]

Sez the Assad fanboy.



Nope. You're confusing liberal with pacifist.

Roosevelt was a liberal, he waged and won WWII.

Gen. Marshall was a liberal, he convinced Roosevelt that US Army needed to bigger, better and smarter and it needed to happen right now. Before something like Pearl Harbor occurred. That decision ultimately led to the success at Normany on D-Day, otherwise the entire war could have gone on longer.

George Kennan was a liberal he defined the containment policy that ultimately won us the Cold War.

The concept of a just war and the limitations on war to make it just goes back at least as far as St. Augustine.

There is nothing just about obamas drone attacks which are for corporate purposes. Also Obama is not a liberal he is a corporatist.

[KevinNYC]

There is nothing just about obamas drone attacks which are for corporate purposes. Also Obama is not a liberal he is a corporatist.

Do tell, secund2nun, do tell.

Also I can I ask your person politics, your positions have always seen a little incoherent to me.

Also I'm about to sign out for a while if getting a response matters to you.

[joe]

this is an important point

you SHOULD feel guilt. you should also understand that your feeling of guilt is valid because you live in a democracy that allows you to elect your own leaders. that feeling of guilt would be much less legitimate if you lived under authoritarian rule where your government took actions you had no way to influence.

at the same time, your feeling of guilt should be shared, for the exact same reason, by your fellow citizens. and whether they accept that responsibility does not undermine its existence which is real and worthy of attention.

I think political action is very close to useless. I am not trying to be cynical, but I see democracy as pretty much an illusion of political equality. The system is rigged in so many ways. The school system is built to brainwash people. Third party candidates cannot get on the ballot. Elections are rigged. Politicians are bribed. I do not put much stock at all in political action.




i still think you and your "ilk" so to speak are far too obsessed with property rights which are problematic at the same time they're important.

nevertheless i'm not surprised you've mellowed out on your political agenda, even if we still disagree on fundamental points. it's good to see people honestly thinking this shit through.

Property rights are a very interesting thing. I have an uncle who is very anti-property rights and we had a great conversation about it. I am more open minded about property rights after that conversation, but I think it is like abortion in a sense.. no right answer. I find it to be an interesting topic.

And thank you, I do really think about things and put consideration into beliefs I hold. I have come to realize that disagreement is unavoidable. There are just so many ways to see the world. It is impossible for everyone to agree on one.

[DCL]

so obama's drone attacks have killed more than bush's, yet people call obama soft and bush hardcore?? :confusedshrug:

[JohnFreeman]

He black doe, can't be blamed.