Stockton vs CP3

[iTare]

If your team had the first round pick and you could choose Stockton or Chris Paul.
Who do you take?

[K Xerxes]

I've always felt Stockton is very underrated historically. It goes without saying he is a GOAT level passer and playmaker, but his defense is often overlooked.

08-10 pre injury Paul was better than Stockton ever was IMO, but over a career Stockton is the xhoice here right now. It's yet to be seen how Paul adapts as he gets older, though I think he will adapt well.

[L.A. Jazz]

They are both PGs who are good at almost everything. CP3 is the better scorer (or just wants to score more) but i trust John more to bring up the ball in the last minute and hit the big shot in the clutch. i dont think of CP3 as clutch. i remember him losing a game against OKC last playoffs with faults John would have never made.

[navy]

They are both PGs who are good at almost everything. CP3 is the better scorer (or just wants to score more) but i trust John more to bring up the ball in the last minute and hit the big shot in the clutch. i dont think of CP3 as clutch. i remember him losing a game against OKC last playoffs with faults John would have never made.
What the hell? CP3 has hit countless big time shots and game winners in the playoffs included, but one game makes him not clutch?

John Stockton has lost plenty of playoff games for the Jazz, he and Malone are kinda famous for it.

[masonanddixon]

Stockton all the way.

He took Jordan off the dribble at will while orchestrating an offense and providing lockdown defense. CP3 is capable of none of these.

[Reggie43]

Stockton all day.

Lets wait till CP3 leads his team to the Western Finals first before we start comparing him to Stockton.

[Harison]

Stockton, obviously. To all the points mentioned above I would add another important aspect - John was gritty and tough as nails, with one of the best BBIQ ever. CP3 is a whining flopping queen and sometimes softer than baby wipes, why would anyone want him on the team?

[T_L_P]

A team of role players? Paul.

A team with another star? Stockton.

Paul worked much better in NO than he has in LA, even if he never was injured.

[Angel Face]

Stockton

[TheNaturalWR]

How some are taking Stockton is mindblowing. CP3 is Stockton with the ability to actually take over games scoring-wise.

[Reggie43]

How some are taking Stockton is mindblowing. CP3 is Stockton with the ability to actually take over games scoring-wise.

Stockton not averaging as much points as CP3 is not about lack of ability but more on preference. I remember Barkley saying that John could have easily averaged 25 ppg. in his career but was not that type of player. He was more content on making the system work.

[Bigsmoke]

Cp3 a better player while Stockton because of his longevity had a better career.

[pauk]

John Stockton thanks, i would pick only perhaps Magic Johnson over him on "my team".

[ImKobe]

The guy that was healthy all his career and led teams to the Finals.

[navy]

The guy that was healthy all his career and led teams to the Finals.
Karl Malone was always better than him.

[Leroy Jetson]

Stockton no question. He averaged close to or over 14 assists per game for a solid five yard stretch while also averaging close to 17 points a game or more. He also went to the finals twice and if he hadn't run into Jordan's bulls would probably have at least two rings. One of the most underrated players on ISH, arguably the #2 PG all time. Paul is lucky to crack the top ten.

[BoutPractice]

Chris Paul is getting the "current player who ended last season on a bad note" treatment here...

When he retires, no one will be associating Chris Paul with the words "unclutch" or "soft". In fact, he'll be associated with the exact opposite, a win-at-all-costs player who lives for the big moment, and will be seen as the "last true PG" while PGs of the future will be criticized for not playing to his standard...

[ImKobe]

Chris Paul is getting the "current player who ended last season on a bad note" treatment here...

When he retires, no one will be associating Chris Paul with the words "unclutch" or "soft". In fact, he'll be associated with the exact opposite, a win-at-all-costs player who lives for the big moment, and will be seen as the "last true PG" while PGs of the future will be criticized for not playing to his standard...

When did this nikka not end his season on a bad note? http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/lol_idi_amin.gif

[Encre92]

Give me Stockton.

[Leroy Jetson]

Chris Paul is getting the "current player who ended last season on a bad note" treatment here...

When he retires, no one will be associating Chris Paul with the words "unclutch" or "soft". In fact, he'll be associated with the exact opposite, a win-at-all-costs player who lives for the big moment, and will be seen as the "last true PG" while PGs of the future will be criticized for not playing to his standard...

Yes he'll be right up there with all the other legendary players who never made it out of the second round:oldlol:

[kshutts1]

A team of role players? Paul.

A team with another star? Stockton.

Paul worked much better in NO than he has in LA, even if he never was injured.
This.

First, I would NEVER draft either one in the first round. Assuming it's an all-time draft, I can name 50 players I'd rather take as my first player, much less 30.

That said, go back to TLPs post, and those are my thoughts.

[Xiao Yao You]

Stockton certainly

[Jlamb47]

CP3

[CelticBalla32]

This is really close. Honestly, I want to say Stockton but I think CP3 is a slightly better all-around player. They are comparable across the board but Paul is a better athlete and scorer without question.

Of course everyone wants to say Stockton and I'm not mad at who does, but I think CP is better than a lot of people want to currently believe.

[Reggie43]

This is really close. Honestly, I want to say Stockton but I think CP3 is a slightly better all-around player. They are comparable across the board but Paul is a better athlete and scorer without question.

Of course everyone wants to say Stockton and I'm not mad at who does, but I think CP is better than a lot of people want to currently believe.

It is close based purely on stats, but most posters are probably choosing Stockton because of how much success he achieved(getting deeper in the playoffs) while having those numbers.

[ralph_i_el]

Stockton all the way.

He took Jordan off the dribble at will while orchestrating an offense and providing lockdown defense. CP3 is capable of none of these.

:facepalm 1st team all D and leads the league in steals damn near every season.
:facepalm

[Young X]

Really don't understand how people can continuously discredit Paul for his lack of team success in the playoffs then pick Stockton, especially when Paul is the one leading his teams every year while Stockton wasn't even the best player on his team yet they have the same amount of rings.

Paul is a better, more dominant all around player, with better numbers, and already has more accolades than Stockton at 29 (if you compare them both at 29 Paul easily comes out on top). Stockton has to be one of the only players immune to the "ringless" criticism. We sit here and criticize other players for not winning enough yet it gets ignored when it comes to Stockton. Don't get it.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Stockton is prolly better on defense. But CP can do way more on offense especially 08 and 09 CP who was more athletic and aggressive. When CP is having a mediocre game hes on the level of Stockton but when CP turns it up Stockton can never get to that level. Stockton also had Karl, Sloan, Hornacek, Eaton etc. Nows the only time CP has a good enough supporting cast to win it all and Blake finally stopped being sht in the playoff but he had an easy matchup in the 1st round against Lee/Draymond

Stockton should be rated higher alltime right now b/c of longevity but peak for peak its no contest. Only Magic was better than peak CP and it wasnt because of PG skills.........Stockton and CP are the most skilled PGs ever. Magic was dominant b/c of his size mostly

[Smoke117]

Chris Paul was putting up the best PG seasons since Magic Johnson in his prime before his knee injury slowed him down indefinitely. I like Stockton and find him incredibly underrated, but there is no way I'm going to take him over Paul.

[Nowitness]

Paul really hasn't kept himself in shape recently though. Kinda unacceptable for a franchise player. Especially a guard.

[BigTicket]

John Stockton had the 4 best passing seasons of all time, and 7 out of the top 9.

...

[Round Mound]

John Stockton had the 4 best passing seasons of all time, and 7 out of the top 9.

...

:applause:

[TheNaturalWR]

Stockton not averaging as much points as CP3 is not about lack of ability but more on preference. I remember Barkley saying that John could have easily averaged 25 ppg. in his career but was not that type of player. He was more content on making the system work.

Nope. He just flat out didn't have the ability. There were PLENTY of times where the Jazz could have benefited from him scoring more when Karl was struggling but he couldn't do it. Scoring is the most important part of the game and CP3 was far superior as a scorer. Stockon's only argument is longevity because as far as playing basketball is concerned, it's CP3.

[TheNaturalWR]

John Stockton had the 4 best passing seasons of all time, and 7 out of the top 9.

...

He also played in a system that was notorious for having high assist rates. Scrubs were putting up 8 and 9 APG prior to his arrival. No way in hell would he ever put up 14 APG in any other system. The Jazz also became better offensively when he declined and had to take a step back. Coincidence? I think not.

[Reggie43]

Nope. He just flat out didn't have the ability. There were PLENTY of times where the Jazz could have benefited from him scoring more when Karl was struggling but he couldn't do it. Scoring is the most important part of the game and CP3 was far superior as a scorer. Stockon's only argument is longevity because as far as playing basketball is concerned, it's CP3.

He was averaging 17 points on close to 54% shooting on less than 12 attempts per game, which is ungodly for any player let alone a point guard who shoots mostly jumpers and he was getting 14 assists with that.

He ups his attempts more instead of passing up shots and they would be considered equal as scorers easily.

Jazz struggling at times has nothing to do with the Cp3/Stockton comparison because those struggles happened mostly deep in the playoffs against all time great competition while a CP3 led team has yet to go past the 2nd round even with his supposedly superior "scoring".

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Whats the highest Stockton even finished for MVP voting????

[Young X]

He was averaging 17 points on close to 54% shooting on less than 12 attempts per game, which is ungodly for any player let alone a point guard who shoots mostly jumpers and he was getting 14 assists with that.

He ups his attempts more instead of passing up shots and they would be considered equal as scorers easily.

Jazz struggling at times has nothing to do with the Cp3/Stockton comparison because those struggles happened mostly deep in the playoffs against all time great competition while a CP3 led team has yet to go past the 2nd round even with his supposedly superior "scoring".Paul averaged 23 on 50/36/87 shooting. Stockton has never shown he's capable of dominating (for a PG) like that. He was never a one on one player like that. Stockton never even scored 30 in a playoff game, Paul just did it like 5 months ago. Paul is the better scorer, it's not debatable.

Stockton played with Malone, when has Paul ever played with someone as dominant as that?

Only thing Stockton has over Paul is longevity. Paul is the better all around player with more accolades at 29.

[Legends66NBA7]

Whats the highest Stockton even finished for MVP voting????

7th in 88/89.

He had his most MVP shares in 94/95.

[Random_Guy]

A team of role players? Paul.

A team with another star? Stockton.

Paul worked much better in NO than he has in LA, even if he never was injured.
I think he just lost a step, the difference is he WAS injured and lost a step. Paul is just not the player he used to be.

As for the original question, Im taking Paul on the condition that I can build a capable team around him in his prime years. The goal of any team is to win a championship, so I always take the best player on the table, and its not as if Paul hasnt played at a high level for a long time either.
besides stocktons career is over, and he never won anything. Yeah he was blocked by the GOAT, but it is what it is.

[Reggie43]

He also played in a system that was notorious for having high assist rates. Scrubs were putting up 8 and 9 APG prior to his arrival. No way in hell would he ever put up 14 APG in any other system. The Jazz also became better offensively when he declined and had to take a step back. Coincidence? I think not.

Wasnt Darren Collison, a rookie point guard averaging "CP3 type" numbers after Paul went down with an injury. It was probably his best season because he was playing in a "system"" where point guards thrived in. He was dishing out 14-20 assist games and 20-30 point games like it was nothing.

Here are the numbers upon searching
"He eventually logged 25 starts before Paul returned, never once looking in over his head. He averaged 19.3 points (with a .486/.397/.824 shooting slash), 9.8 assists and 1.6 steals during that stretch."

[Reggie43]

Paul averaged 23 on 50/36/87 shooting. Stockton has never shown he's capable of dominating (for a PG) like that. He was never a one on one player like that. Stockton never even scored 30 in a playoff game, Paul just did it like 5 months ago. Paul is the better scorer, it's not debatable.

Stockton played with Malone, when has Paul ever played with someone as dominant as that?

Only thing Stockton has over Paul is longevity. Paul is the better all around player with more accolades at 29.

And what did Chris Paul dominate exactly? First round games?

The only thing Paul has over Stockton was being a better rebounder and thats it. Stockton was more efficient, the better shooter and was dishing out assist numbers unrivaled by no one in Nba history.

[Milbuck]

CP3 unfortunately probably won't have the longevity of Stockton..But 2007-2009 CP3 at his best is clearly better than any version of Stockton imo.

Give him a prime Malone those years and they're either winning it all or making the WCF or Finals. I just can't see any team being able to handle a peak CP3/Malone duo, that's just unreal.

These next few years are legacy defining for CP3..he may not be at his peak, but he's at the age where he needs to do some serious damage in the playoffs..and the stars are aligning for him to do it. Blake is really turning into a sick offensive player, as is DJ on defense. He has one of the, if not the most promising 2-way front courts in the game and they're finally arriving as reliable 2nd and 3rd options..they also have a ton of depth..and they have the coach to put it all together and make it work.

He's got every opportunity to surpass Stockton's overall career, it's just a matter of doing it.

[Young X]

The only thing Paul has over Stockton was being a better rebounder and thats it. Stockton was more efficient, the better shooter and was dishing out assist numbers unrivaled by no one in Nba history.He's a better all around player period. Better scorer, similar level playmaker, similar level defender, better rebounder, same tenacity, same efficiency. Just does more overall.

[Reggie43]

Paul averaged 23 on 50/36/87 shooting. Stockton has never shown he's capable of dominating (for a PG) like that. He was never a one on one player like that. Stockton never even scored 30 in a playoff game, Paul just did it like 5 months ago. Paul is the better scorer, it's not debatable.

Stockton played with Malone, when has Paul ever played with someone as dominant as that?

Only thing Stockton has over Paul is longevity. Paul is the better all around player with more accolades at 29.

1989 playoffs against Goldenstate

30pts 2rebs 14assists 2 steals 1block 52%fg

34pts 3rebs 16assists 6steals 2blocks 65%fg

[Young X]

1989 playoffs against Goldenstate

30pts 2rebs 14assists 2 steals 1block 52%fg

34pts 3rebs 16assists 6steals 2blocks 65%fgMy bad I was wrong he did it twice, Paul's done it 8 times and he's only 29. :confusedshrug:

Besides Stockton's longevity what advantage does he have?

[Reggie43]

He's a better all around player period. Better scorer, similar level playmaker, similar level defender, better rebounder, same tenacity, same efficiency. Just does more overall.

Nice.. I like the part where every advantage that Stockton has over Paul you deemed as "similar" or the "same".

[Young X]

Nice.. I like the part where every advantage that Stockton has over Paul you deemed as "similar" or the "same".Are they both not elite level playmakers in history?
Defense and tenacity are more subjective but from watching them both play they both seemed similar to me.
Their efficiency is factually similar.
Paul is a clearly better scorer and rebounder.

:confusedshrug:

[Reggie43]

Are they both not elite level playmakers in history?

Peak for peak, having three more assists is not "similar"



Defense and tenacity are more subjective but from watching them both play they both seemed similar to me.


I agree but still Stockton has the edge



Their efficiency is factually similar.


Paul's highest percentages if we talk about efficiency in terms of shooting the ball is .503 reaching 50fg% only once while Stockton averaged .515 in his 19 year career with highs of .574



Paul is a clearly better scorer and rebounder.


Sure, but I still contend that Stockton had that "scoring ability" but preferred to make the system work.

[PsychoBe]

stockton without a second thought.

a better and more efficient pure shooter who of course averaged much more assists and holds the record for most steals in nba history by a healthy margin and his efficiency blows cp3's out of the water and he made it to two final appearances while cp3 hasn't made it to a conference finals game yet.

watch some videos on youtube if you find yourself doubting stockton's greatness at any point in this thread before posting.

[L.A. Jazz]

Gary Payton said it best about how tough it was to play against John. Payton would shut CP3 down and CP3 would cry on the bench.

[oarabbus]

Are they both not elite level playmakers in history?
Defense and tenacity are more subjective but from watching them both play they both seemed similar to me.
Their efficiency is factually similar.
Paul is a clearly better scorer and rebounder.

:confusedshrug:


Stockton averaged 17/14/3stl one year, and had even more assists other years.

I'll wait for you to post CP3s.

"Their efficiency is factually similar paul is a clearly better scorer"

Wait, really? :biggums: Stockton peaked at 57.5% FG. He had 12 seasons over 50% FG. Chris paul has had ONE 50% shooting season, EVER.

Stockton could EASILY have scored more than Paul if he wanted to, and on higher efficiency.

Chris paul's best 3pt%? 40.9%.

John Stockton? Try 46.2% from 3 in his best year.

Stockton's peak, he was a more efficient shooter overall, from 3, WAY more assists, more steals, and even more blocks if you care about that. CP3 was a better rebounder though you're right on that count :lol

You're really talking out your ass on this one.

[oarabbus]

Even if you don't want to acknowledge Stockton's undeniably superior stats, OP asked who you'd rather draft to start a franchise.

Yeah, I'll take the beastly, legendary durability guy over the injury-prone flopper to start my franchise, thanks.

[BigTicket]

He also played in a system that was notorious for having high assist rates. Scrubs were putting up 8 and 9 APG prior to his arrival.

Right, and Chris Paul played in a system where Greivis Vasquez was able to put up 9 APG after he left ...

[sportjames23]

Stockton all the way.

He took Jordan off the dribble at will while orchestrating an offense and providing lockdown defense. CP3 is capable of none of these.


LOL, when was this, ph@ggot?

[L.A. Jazz]

Yeah, I'll take the beastly, legendary durability guy over the injury-prone flopper to start my franchise, thanks.
Same here!
I may have been overboard with CP3 craying on the bench but i dont like his flopping at all and dont want my teamleader to do so. Thats Rudy Fernandez crap but not what i want my PG to do. (and i never liked it with Derek Fisher too)

[Sarcastic]

How in the world can someone say Stockton has undeniably superior stats? Stockton usually put up a PER in the low 20s, with his best being 23.9. Chris Paul has had much higher PER seasons, with a high of 30, and routinely being in the high 20s.

Chris Paul also has consecutive seasons of putting up 20/10, which Stockton never even came close to. His best scoring season is 17.2 ppg.



If you wanna say that Stockton was a better leader or defender or mentally tougher, then that is fine. But to say he is better than Paul because of stats is absolutely absurd.

[navy]

Same here!
I may have been overboard with CP3 craying on the bench but i dont like his flopping at all and dont want my teamleader to do so. Thats Rudy Fernandez crap but not what i want my PG to do. (and i never liked it with Derek Fisher too)
This is nonsense. Flopping has never affected a person's ability to lead a team. It's like when people say Lebron flops so he cant make it in the NFL. Lebron wouldnt be an nfl player because he never pursued it past high school, but flopping? Do you not realize that those things are completely unrelated?

[masonanddixon]

LOL, when was this, ph@ggot?

Here's a sampling, you idiot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8591nmgoGqU

[L.A. Jazz]

Do you not realize that those things are completely unrelated?
For me they are not. Everything you do has an effect on your teammates. it may not limit yourself (e.g. Lebron, because he is on of the best alltime) but it can be a bad example for average players. i dont want that in my team.

[navy]

For me they are not. Everything you do has an effect on your teammates. it may not limit yourself (e.g. Lebron, because he is on of the best alltime) but it can be a bad example for average players. i dont want that in my team.

A bad example as in what? Average players will start flopping? Again, how does that affect the team?