Would kobe be a top 10 player without shaq

[rlsmooth775]

1 MVP two finals MVP one is debatable. Shooting below 50% his entire career below average passer for someone so ball dominant and poor rebounder for a tall guard

[SouBeachTalents]

With just two rings? He'd definitely still be in the top 15. He'd be in the 10-14 range

[choppermagic]

Just taking away a teammate doesn't mean Kobe sits out those years. He'd be a phenom rookie with a full green light to take over the offense from an early age. He'd probably be chasing Karl Malone for No. 2 all time scoring by now and he'd have much more hype early on. With Phil, Eddie Jones, etc. I think the Lakers would be competitive anyway. Who knows if they would have won early too.

By your logic, taking away Pippen form MJ means MJ has 0 rings. Taking away Wade means Lebron has zero rings as well. It's just not as easy as taking away a teammate and giving a player a zero for those years.

[GrapeApe]

Just taking away a teammate doesn't mean Kobe sits out those years. He'd be a phenom rookie with a full green light to take over the offense from an early age. He'd probably be chasing Karl Malone for No. 2 all time scoring by now and he'd have much more hype early on. With Phil, Eddie Jones, etc. I think the Lakers would be competitive anyway. Who knows if they would have won early too.

By your logic, taking away Pippen form MJ means MJ has 0 rings. Taking away Wade means Lebron has zero rings as well. It's just not as easy as taking away a teammate and giving a player a zero for those years.

I agree with most of this, though along those same lines if Shaq never becomes a Laker I doubt Phil ever coaches there. He was instrumental in Kobe's development. Who knows if Kobe would even have remained a Laker. There's a butterfly effect that's impossible to account for so OP's question is really tough to answer. Kobe's entire career would be completely different.

[9erempiree]

Actually taking away Kobe would actually move him up much higher. This is what I call addition by subtraction. The "Shaq carried Kobe" argument would not exist. Kobe goes on to put up crazy stats at an early age and wins back to back.

A example I like to give is Hakeem. Only winning a back to back and he is considered top 10. Heck, you chop Kobe's accomplishment in half and he is still better than Hakeem.

His stats would be crazy high too without Shaq.

[JellyBean]

I would say heck yeah.

[9erempiree]

I agree with most of this, though along those same lines if Shaq never becomes a Laker I doubt Phil ever coaches there. He was instrumental in Kobe's development. Who knows if Kobe would even have remained a Laker. There's a butterfly effect that's impossible to account for so OP's question is really tough to answer. Kobe's entire career would be completely different.

Kobe was on the Lakers before Shaq. I bet Phil would come regardless because MJ is just like Kobe and since Phil coached MJ, there is no doubt he would continue the triangle with Kobe as well. Phil would have taken notice.

[red1]

absolutely

[kshutts1]

I'm not sure he's top 10 now.

But without getting into all the possible What Ifs, and just making the logical assumption that for a player to be as good as Kobe was once Shaq left, that said player must have also been very good prior...

I don't think he'd fall far, if at all.

[Magic 32]

Does this mean that Kobe is not on a rebuilding team in 05, 06, 07 ?

[JT123]

Of course not. Kobe can't handle adversity, as we saw back in 2007 when he requested a trade after just 3 seasons of not having the most stacked team in the league. :facepalm
Without piggy backing Shaq to easy rings early in his career Kobe would have spent his entire career bouncing from super team to super team, except unlike Lebron Kobe choke's with super teams. See 2004 and 2012. Without Shaq he might not even be top 30.

[GrapeApe]

Kobe was on the Lakers before Shaq. I bet Phil would come regardless because MJ is just like Kobe and since Phil coached MJ, there is no doubt he would continue the triangle with Kobe as well. Phil would have taken notice.

Maybe, but Kobe was still extremely young and very raw. Even if Phil viewed Kobe as a potential MJ type, would Phil have had the patience to let him develop? Who was eventually going to be his Pippen? I don't think Phil takes the job unless he felt he had a championship roster in place. Shaq provided that. We all know he's a "win now" coach and not a team builder.

[theoneneo]

I'm not sure he's top 10 now.

But without getting into all the possible What Ifs, and just making the logical assumption that for a player to be as good as Kobe was once Shaq left, that said player must have also been very good prior...

I don't think he'd fall far, if at all.

Stop posting brah, you can't find 10 more accomplished players in the history of the NBA, there's only 2 for certain, everyone else is debatable.

Kobe's criticized for only having 1 MVP but Shaq only has 1 himself...
Kobe's criticized for having poor sub-par shooting finals, but people turn a blind eye to the fact that Duncan shot horribly against the same Detroit team that beat kobe a year prior, and he still won mvp

Criticized for playing with Shaq, but he proved that he can win with a player(Pau) who's impact ain't even half of Shaq's.

He's top 10, most likely top 5 once he retires. Deal with the shits!

[Rooster]

Would Shaq be a top 10 player without Kobe? Lakers did not start winning until Eddie Jones got traded and Kobe was entering his prime.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Would Shaq be without Kobe?

1 MVP & 0 FMVP

[Nowitness]

Would Shaq be without Kobe?

1 MVP & 0 FMVP

The same. Replace Kobe with antonio daniels and they 3-peat. That's what Phil+Shaq can do. kome was baggage. dead weight.

[JT123]

Would Shaq be a top 10 player without Kobe? Lakers did not start winning until Eddie Jones got traded and Kobe was entering his prime.
Yeah, I'm sure it had nothing to do with the arrival of the best coach in NBA history. :facepalm
My personal list of guards who could 3 peat with prime Shaq
T-Mac
Vince Carter
Allen Iverson
Latrell Sprewell
Allan Houston
John Starks
Jason Kidd
Ray Allen

[SouBeachTalents]

Yeah, I'm sure it had nothing to do with the arrival of the best coach in NBA history. :facepalm
My personal list of guards who could 3 peat with prime Shaq
T-Mac
Vince Carter
Allen Iverson
Latrell Sprewell
Allan Houston
John Starks
Jason Kidd
Ray Allen

:facepalm

And for unbolded ones, none of them are a lock to 3peat either

[Rooster]

Yeah, I'm sure it had nothing to do with the arrival of the best coach in NBA history. :facepalm
My personal list of guards who could 3 peat with prime Shaq
T-Mac
Vince Carter
Allen Iverson
Latrell Sprewell
Allan Houston
John Starks
Jason Kidd
Ray Allen

You did a great job with the arrival of Phil but none of these player have the playmaking and Kobe's defense on the three peat. If you actually watch those games instead of simply naming names then you should know. Until then you better aks somebody.

[kennethgriffin]

kobes career without shaq from just 2005 till 2013 is better than hakeem olajuwons entire resume


so if kobe had another 8 years ( without shaq ) to stack his scoring averages and records, 1st teams etc... ( even if he didnt win another title ) would be more than enough. heck. it already is minus the 3 titles and honors


kobe without shaq has

the same number of finals as hakeem
the same number of titles as hakeem
the same number of finals mvps as hakeem
the same number of season mvps as hakeem
more 1st team all nbas
more 1st team all defenses
more allstar game starts
more 80 point games
more 70 point games
more 60 point games
more 50 point games
and more 40 point games


kobe just from 2005 on has a better career than hakeem olajuwon had in his entire life


so yes. kobe would crack the top 10 without shaq


he basically DID

[TheMarkMadsen]

The same. Replace Kobe with antonio daniels and they 3-peat. That's what Phil+Shaq can do. kome was baggage. dead weight.

Okay troll.

[Mr Exlax]

I hate Kobe.

I have him in my top 15 greatest players. I don't particularly care about team success. Championships don't mean anything on your skill level to me. He's one of the most skilled players ever. Playing with Shaq did not make him a great player or more talented. He's great because of his work ethic and skill level. When people hold that he has 5 rings vs LeBron's 2, it doesn't work in his favor because those rings came playing as the sidekick (which isn't bad) to the most dominant and unstoppable force the NBA had ever seen. Anyway though, playing along side Shaq doesn't make him any better or worse imo.

[TheMarkMadsen]

I hate Kobe.

I have him in my top 15 greatest players. I don't particularly care about team success. Championships don't mean anything on your skill level to me. He's one of the most skilled players ever. Playing with Shaq did not make him a great player or more talented. He's great because of his work ethic and skill level. When people hold that he has 5 rings vs LeBron's 2, it doesn't work in his favor because those rings came playing as the sidekick (which isn't bad) to the most dominant and unstoppable force the NBA had ever seen. Anyway though, playing along side Shaq doesn't make him any better or worse imo.

01 Kobe: 29/7/6/2/1 on 47% in the playoffs

96 Jordan: 31/5/4/2 on 46% in the playoffs

"Sidekick"

[rlsmooth775]

01 Kobe: 29/7/6/2/1 on 47% in the playoffs

96 Jordan: 31/5/4/2 on 46% in the playoffs

"Sidekick"

Yeah but jordan was the best player on the team the only one the defenses cared about

[Mr Exlax]

01 Kobe: 29/7/6/2/1 on 47% in the playoffs

96 Jordan: 31/5/4/2 on 46% in the playoffs

"Sidekick"

See that's the thing. The entire defense was geared towards MJ. He was the first option. Shaq still got the bulk of the defensive attention. How you only managed to pick up the word sidekick is mind blowing to me.

[GODbe]

01 Kobe: 29/7/6/2/1 on 47% in the playoffs

96 Jordan: 31/5/4/2 on 46% in the playoffs

"Sidekick"
GOAT gonna GOAT:pimp:.

[elementally morale]

Probably not.

Shaq wouldn't be the accomplished player w/o Kobe, Penny and Wade either. Kareem without Magic? MJ without Pippen? Stockton or Malone without the other?

How about not taking away what actually happened?

Would Kobe be the same had he not played basketball but table tennis? Nash at soccer? MJ at baseball? Magic as a carpenter or Bird as a lightbulb-inspector? Rasheed Wallace as a Wall Street banker? Shaq as a painter?

What if Bird had died at 15 in a car crash? Would he still be Larry Legend?

[GODbe]

Shaq could've just been replaced by another piece/pieces. Lakers would be better off because odds are whoever it was wouldn't have bolted, meaning 4-peat-5peat. And factor in that Godbe as a "sidekick" was superior to the supposed GOAT(to stat nerds on here) ever was as a 1st option in a weak era. Now imagine that form of him as a 1st option:applause: :applause: :applause: .

[TheMarkMadsen]

See that's the thing. The entire defense was geared towards MJ. He was the first option. Shaq still got the bulk of the defensive attention. How you only managed to pick up the word sidekick is mind blowing to me.

How many perimter players have averaged 30/7/6 on the way to a title? Jordan Kobe, Lebron? Those are all time great numbers, it's irrelevant who was playing beside him, why is Kobe the only guy penalized for playing with a great player?

Should we look at magics stats differently for playing with the arguable goat? Kobe 8 years later was putting up 30/6/6 on his way to b2b championships.. He's proven he didn't need Shaq to put up those numbers and win titles..

Shaq spent his entire prime playing with all star guards & he only won with Kobe.. Not a coincedence

[funnystuff]

I don't really count his sidekick rings in the first place. I have him #11 originally, so he stays at 11.

[Cold soul]

Yes, I believe so if not top 15 for sure.

[TheMilkyBarKid]

You did a great job with the arrival of Phil but none of these player have the playmaking and Kobe's defense on the three peat. If you actually watch those games instead of simply naming names then you should know. Until then you better aks somebody.
Jason Kidd is a much better playmaker, but probably not as good defender as 3peat Kobe.

[bizil]

U can argue Kobe peak wise as the second greatest perimeter player of all time. U could argue Bird, Magic, Lebron, or Big O for that too. So I guess I'm assuming that Kobe would have two rings instead of five. So Kobe's resume would be an MVP, two rings, over 30,000 points, two gold medals, and a truckload of all star games, all defensive teams, and all NBA teams. I would say YES Kobe would still be a top ten player. I think now u could rank him as high as sixth. But without Shaq and those three extra rings, I think he would be 9-10. Gotta keep in mind his peak value and EPIC LONGEVITY being a great player!!

[Prometheus]

http://www.hypun.com/lollibs/meme_thumb_l/6643383.jpg


The same. Replace Kobe with antonio daniels and they 3-peat. That's what Phil+Shaq can do. kome was baggage. dead weight.

http://gifshost.com/3507yu7037.gif

[9erempiree]

kobes career without shaq from just 2005 till 2013 is better than hakeem olajuwons entire resume


so if kobe had another 8 years ( without shaq ) to stack his scoring averages and records, 1st teams etc... ( even if he didnt win another title ) would be more than enough. heck. it already is minus the 3 titles and honors


kobe without shaq has

the same number of finals as hakeem
the same number of titles as hakeem
the same number of finals mvps as hakeem
the same number of season mvps as hakeem
more 1st team all nbas
more 1st team all defenses
more allstar game starts
more 80 point games
more 70 point games
more 60 point games
more 50 point games
and more 40 point games


kobe just from 2005 on has a better career than hakeem olajuwon had in his entire life


so yes. kobe would crack the top 10 without shaq


he basically DID



The most knowledgeable poster on this site who took notice.

If Hakeem is ranked so highly then Kobe would actually move up ahead of a lot of players because the "Shaq carried Kobe argument" would never exist and his back to back is as good as Hakeem, who everyone considers a top 10.

What's holding Kobe back is his 3 rings with Shaq. He would be higher if he never won those 3. Addition by Subtraction.

People need to step their game up and get on Griff's level.

[9erempiree]

http://www.hypun.com/lollibs/meme_thumb_l/6643383.jpg


Another screenshot that I brought to the internet world. Glad you added caption. I like to keep it blank.

I love watching those old games on Youtube and Print Screening those screen shots to share with people that don't know about the Kobe and Shaq tandem.

Kobe in many years was considered Playoffs and Finals MVP for winning the Western Conference, which was essentially the Finals.

[Prometheus]

Another screenshot that I brought to the internet world. Glad you added caption. I like to keep it blank.

I love watching those old games on Youtube and Print Screening those screen shots to share with people that don't know about the Kobe and Shaq tandem.

Kobe in many years was considered Playoffs and Finals MVP for winning the Western Conference, which was essentially the Finals.

I ****ing miss Frobe yo. I stopped liking him so much after the '04 Finals but man I loved young Kobe.

[JohnFreeman]

If he got drafted to the Hornets instead, he might be top 20

[Encre92]

No. In fact, he's not top 10 with Shaq either.

[SOD 21]

Yes, of course.

Kobe Bryant has averaged 29 points, six rebounds, five assist and a true shooting percentage of 56% over the last decade without Shaq as a teammate. I would imagine that he would be able to average those numbers, easily, possibly better, for an additional five or six seasons without Shaq as a teammate in the late 90s thru 2004. He is also likely have an additional couple of scoring titles to his name with the ability to be the unquestioned number one option and would probably have four or five in his career instead of only two.

Also, you must remember that Shaq's contract for his final five seasons or so with the Lakers was about 22 million per season, on average. It isn't difficult to imagine that type of money bringing in several quality front court players that could propel the Lakers to one of the better teams in the league in the early 2000's with Kobe as their centerpiece. It would certainly be must-see TV, no question.

[Jlamb47]

Kobe could be higher without shaq. If he was first option in his younger days, his numbers could be better but you never know.
Either way hes top 10, and has 5 rings

All these lebron trolls trying too hard

[Mr Exlax]

How many perimter players have averaged 30/7/6 on the way to a title? Jordan Kobe, Lebron? Those are all time great numbers, it's irrelevant who was playing beside him, why is Kobe the only guy penalized for playing with a great player?

Should we look at magics stats differently for playing with the arguable goat? Kobe 8 years later was putting up 30/6/6 on his way to b2b championships.. He's proven he didn't need Shaq to put up those numbers and win titles..

Shaq spent his entire prime playing with all star guards & he only won with Kobe.. Not a coincedence

Who said he was being penalized? I didn't say he only got those numbers because he was playing with Shaq. I said Shaq got the bulk of the defensive attention. Kobe was the sidekick and that's not a bad thing. Anybody would be the sidekick to Shaq.

I don't particularly care about Magic's stats. I do look at the number of championships he won and the loaded teams he played on.

I think you think I'm hating on Kobe and I'm not. I said I hate Kobe. I love basketball and I'd never deny a players greatness or skill.

Kobe's 2 FMVPs and stats in those Finals or whatever are great. Super great. He did that as the first option. Again, the team was good imo. I value size so to have 2 seven footers in the paint is a plus. When Kobe lost in the first round he was still a great player and probably a better player than when he won b2b. His team just wasn't good enough. That's why I don't care about rings too much.

[ProfessorMurder]

Not top ten now.

[dynasty1978]

He would still be in the lower part of the top 10.

Without Shaq, he would've had more individual accolades but fewer rings.

So instead of 5 rings, 1 MVP, 2 finals mvps, 2 scoring titles, etc., he may have 2 rings, 2 MVPs, 2 finals mvps, 5-6 scoring titles, and the usual ALL NBA 1st teams.

[Nowitness]

He'd be higher. probably 15-16 range.

[riseagainst]

he'd be the GOAT

[Round Mound]

Kobe`s FG% after Shaq being the foucs, getting doubled and tripled...still not impressive. With Shaq Top 30 Without Shaq Top 20.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Kobe`s FG% after Shaq being the foucs, getting doubled and tripled...still not impressive. With Shaq Top 30 Without Shaq Top 20.

I bet Kobe wishes he could trade in all his rings & FMVPs for Barkleys FG%

[stalkerforlife]

I bet Kobe wishes he could trade in all his rings & FMVPs for Barkleys FG%

:roll:

[stalkerforlife]

Kobe`s FG% after Shaq being the foucs, getting doubled and tripled...still not impressive. With Shaq Top 30 Without Shaq Top 20.

Honest question, bro...

Do you really think Barkley is a better basketball player than Kobe Bryant?

[tpols]

Kobe`s FG% after Shaq being the foucs, getting doubled and tripled...still not impressive. With Shaq Top 30 Without Shaq Top 20.

What? Kobe's efficiencies remained the same after shaq left.. He actually had some of his highest playoff TS' s after shaq.. your logic makes no sense bro.

[Round Mound]

Honest question, bro...

Do you really think Barkley is a better basketball player than Kobe Bryant?

Just Me? Most of us that saw both play at their peaks would say so too. :confusedshrug:

[stalkerforlife]

Just Me? Most of us that saw both play at their peaks would say so too. :confusedshrug:

:roll:

[kenuffff]

yes.. why do people post these stupid threads.

[HOoopCityJones]

I bet Kobe wishes he could trade in all his rings & FMVPs for Barkleys FG%

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Cold soul]

I bet Kobe wishes he could trade in all his rings & FMVPs for Barkleys FG%

http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/webdr05/2013/7/30/13/anigif_enhanced-buzz-29378-1375204268-5.gif