Let's settle these debates once and for all: Best player on the '01 Lakers & '11 Heat

[SouBeachTalents]

Who ya got?

[JohnFreeman]

Shaq and LeBron

[Encre92]

Shaq and Lebron

[Dresta]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3kKxtSQa-4

Shaq and Wade.

[Warfan]

11' Heat. Not Finals Heat you pos.

He's asking about THE ENTIRE GOD DAMNED SEASON/YEAR POS FAKKIT.

Calm down. Are the finals not the most important games of the whole year? Overall was wade not better than lebron in the playoffs?

I think this is up for discussion, but brons pathetic finals performance should be greatly held against him when comparing him to wade that year...

[Dresta]

11' Heat. Not Finals Heat you pos.

He's asking about THE ENTIRE GOD DAMNED SEASON/YEAR POS FAKKIT.
And the finals was the most important part of the entire season, and Lebron fluffed it.

I don't think 2014 Durant is better than 2014 Bron just because he had a better regular season either. Taking the whole year into account Wade was the superior player and Bron's game fell apart on the biggest stage when the pressure was highest.

In the playoffs, Wade had superior overall numbers to Lebron, and showed up when it mattered most. Bron disappeared when it mattered most - i don't see how a player that does that can be regarded as his team's 'best' when there is another guy outperforming him anyway.

[JohnFreeman]

Calm down. Are the finals not the most important games of the whole year? Overall was wade not better than lebron in the playoffs?

I think this is up for discussion, but brons pathetic finals performance should be greatly held against him when comparing him to wade that year...
LeBron was better then Wade in the 11 playoffs. Not even up for discussion

[L.A. Jazz]

Shaq was the best player on earth in 2001. he was the most important and best player for the Lakers. Kobe was good, really good, top 5 player in the playoffs.

Lebron was the best player in basketball 2011, but in the finals he (dont know why) played like crap and Wade was their best player.

[iamgine]

Being the best doesn't mean you can't be outperformed.

Surely on some days Ricky Davis outperform Kobe. But that doesn't mean Ricky's the better player on that day. He just perform better, maybe he was hot or played above his capability. While Kobe maybe had a bad game or played under his capability on that day. Kobe's still the better player, even if outperformed.

[Warfan]

@LAJazz

I probably agree



LeBron was better then Wade in the 11 playoffs. Not even up for discussion

No not really. It can be discussed...

Wade - 24.5/7/4.5 57TS%
Bron - 23.7/8.5/6 56 TS%

Bron was definitely better than Wade was against Chicago and maybe the 76ers.

They played at a similar level against Boston but overall i think Wade had a better series. And i don't think I need to even bring up how much better wade was in the finals on the biggest stage in the NBA

[JohnFreeman]

@LAJazz

I probably agree




No not really. It can be discussed...

Wade - 24.5/7/4.5 57TS%
Bron - 23.7/8.5/6 56 TS%

Bron was definitely better than Wade was against Chicago and maybe the 76ers.

They played at a similar level against Boston but overall i think Wade had a better series. And i don't think I need to even bring up how much better wade was in the finals on the biggest stage in the NBA
The defense LeBron played was great against Boston and Chicago

[Collie]

I didn't know there was a debate for the best player on the 01 Lakers.

[Encre92]

I didn't know there was a debate for the best player on the 01 Lakers.
There isn't. Only moronic Kobetards think otherwise.

Inb4 that pos kennethgriffin with his bolded essays slurping Kobe's dong.

[masonanddixon]

Kobe and Wade

[sportjames23]

11' Heat. Not Finals Heat you pos.

He's asking about THE ENTIRE GOD DAMNED SEASON/YEAR POS FAKKIT.


This nikka is seriously upset. :oldlol:

[Magic 32]

The 2011 Finals was a blatant sabotage by Lebron . He couldn't do it so they lost. Wade had nothing to do with it.

fixed

[Encre92]

Lebron has been the best player in the entire league for the last decade ffs.:facepalm

[Nowitness]

Lebron has been the best player in the entire league for the last decade ffs.:facepalm

Missed the playoffs his first two years...therefore Beno Udrih > lebron.


wow. what a failure. :facepalm

best player in 07 even though drew gooden outperformed hin?

best player in 11 even though jason terry outperformed him?

:oldlol:

[Kblaze8855]

I didn't know there was a debate for the best player on the 01 Lakers.


I was on ISH in 2001. The general debate wasn't Shaq or Kobe. It was Shaq or Michael Jordan.

Shaq or Kobe came up from a few bigtime Kobe fans. I remember a long topic when Shaq said Kobe was his idol or whatever....but most of us assumed they were just squashing the rumored beef.

We were wondering if shaq would lead them to five straight and be he best ever....

There wasn't much serious Shaq/Kobe debate.

That started for real in 2003. And even with Kobe going crazy part of the year....if you did a poll Shaq probably still would have won.

Then they both had off years in 04 but Shaq finished strong and ISH was clowning Kobe. Shaq missed out on the 05 mvp by 5 Canadian voters putting him way down the list to rig for Nash.....while Kobe had an ok year but missed the playoffs.

06 is when the Kobe/Shaq argument was over. And people still had it just to be contrarians. People didn't really think it was up for discussion.

In 01 people discussed it a bit...but the answer was clear.

Shaq was beyond the Kobe argument back then. The shaq argument was vs Jordan, Wilt, and Kareem back then.

[elementally morale]

In the given years, Shaq and LeBron.

[Dresta]

Being the best doesn't mean you can't be outperformed.

Surely on some days Ricky Davis outperform Kobe. But that doesn't mean Ricky's the better player on that day. He just perform better, maybe he was hot or played above his capability. While Kobe maybe had a bad game or played under his capability on that day. Kobe's still the better player, even if outperformed.
Being the best generally means you don't go AWOL in the biggest games of the season.

[SexSymbol]

Tie in 01 with a slight favor to Kobe and definitely Wade in 11

[Papaya Petee]

Shaq and Wade slightly

[r15mohd]

game plan for the 2011 Heat finals was for Lebron to be full distributor and Wade to be the aggressor...it wasn't a sabotage by Wade or Lebron, both went off the gameplan and it could be possible Lebron let Wade lead for the last hooray. :confusedshrug:

anyhooooooo....2001 Shaq, and 2011 Lebron, were the best players that year. these aren't even up for question.

[Encre92]

game plan for the 2011 Heat finals was for Lebron to be full distributor and Wade to be the aggressor...it wasn't a sabotage by Wade or Lebron, both went off the gameplan and it could be possible Lebron let Wade lead for the last hooray. :confusedshrug:

anyhooooooo....2001 Shaq, and 2011 Lebron, were the best players that year. these aren't even up for question.
Good post.

[fpliii]

Shaq and Wade in the Finals

[GODbe]

Kobe/Wade.

[Jlamb47]

Shaq/Wade

Kobe was a beast as well and so was Lebron but Lebron in the finals was trash
Bosh and Wade averaged more points than him.

[iamgine]

G
Being the best generally means you don't go AWOL in the biggest games of the season.
Usually, but even the best sometimes perform poorly

[Beastmode88]

11' Heat. Not Finals Heat you pos.

He's asking about THE ENTIRE GOD DAMNED SEASON/YEAR POS FAKKIT.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

So you admit Bran stunk it up in the finals?

[Mr Exlax]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

So you admit Bran stunk it up in the finals?

I actually think he did. I credit it to Dallas' ability to exploit the flaws in LeBron's game. Their defensive scheme was amazing and effective. I also believe that LeBron got rattled. The different looks they were throwing at him screwed him all up. I won't say he choked or froze per say. If ypu have capable teammates and they're open then you should give them the ball. Even with his passes though, he wasn't actually trying to make plays. He didn't know what to do.

[ralph_i_el]

Fisher and Bibby

[pegasus]

Shaq and Kobe. No one else is worth mentioning.

[riseagainst]

Lebron was the best player until the finals, then Wade was the best player.

[ArbitraryWater]

No debate for 2001 exists..

[SOD 21]

No debate for 2001 exists..

There can always be a debate.

For example, Kobe Bryant led the Los Angeles Lakers in 2001 with more win shares than anyone else on the team and had an equal number of win shares per 48 minutes as Shaquille in that playoff run.

He played so well through the Western Conference finals that Shaquille called him the best player in the world following the Los Angeles Lakers demolition of Portland, Sacramento and San Antonio. Everyone accepts that the Los Angeles Lakers biggest threats in the playoffs were in the Western Conference, not in the NBA finals. The primary reason that Philadelphia did win a single game is that the Lakers were rusty after a long eight or nine day layoff entering the finals.

In addition to win shares and Shaq's on comments, Kobe Bryant also averaged an impressive 33 points, nine rebounds, six assist and shot 47% from the field on the road throughout the playoffs. Kobe's ability to take over on the road is important because Shaq would often get into foul trouble on the road with his physical style of play.

So see, I can at least make an argument.

[AnaheimLakers24]

01 was never in question you dumb small dick loser

an wade could have 2 fmvp but baby dick didnt have attention so he choked

[JellyBean]

We all know that in 2001, it was Shaq who was the better player on that Lakers team. With the '11 Heat, again, we all know that it was LeBron.

[kennethgriffin]

best player all season in 2001 was kobe

best player during the first 3 rounds was kobe

shaq hogged in the finals

[Smoke117]

best player all season in 2001 was kobe

best player during the first 3 rounds was kobe

shaq hogged in the finals


MVP Points in 2001:
1. Allen Iverson: 1st place - 93, Total - 1121
2. Tim Duncan: 1st place - 18, total - 706
3. Shaquille O'neal: 1st place - 7, total - 578
4. Chris Webber: 1st place - 5, total - 521
5. Kevin Garnett: 1st place - 1, total - 151
9. Kobe Bryant: 1st place - 0, Total - 11

Good call Kenny!

[GrapeApe]

Shaq and LeBron were the best players, but both cases were really a 1a/1b scenario. LeBron and Wade were probably more of a 1a/1aa. The point is, if Kobe or Wade outperformed Shaq or LeBron nobody would even bat an eye. On any given night it was basically 50/50 who would have the better game.

That may sound like a "PC" response so to speak, but I think it's fairly accurate.

[navy]

Shaq and LeBron were the best players, but both cases were really a 1a/1b scenario. LeBron and Wade were probably more of a 1a/1aa. The point is, if Kobe or Wade outperformed Shaq or LeBron nobody would even bat an eye. On any given night it was basically 50/50 who would have the better game.

That may sound like a "PC" response so to speak, but I think it's fairly accurate.
:applause:

[Lebronxrings]

shaq and lebron

[Smoke117]

Shaq and LeBron were the best players, but both cases were really a 1a/1b scenario. LeBron and Wade were probably more of a 1a/1aa. The point is, if Kobe or Wade outperformed Shaq or LeBron nobody would even bat an eye. On any given night it was basically 50/50 who would have the better game.

That may sound like a "PC" response so to speak, but I think it's fairly accurate.

Wrong. Kobe can't come close to replacing the defense and rebounding Shaq provided. Diesel was clearly the best player.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Wrong. Kobe can't come close to replacing the defense and rebounding Shaq provided. Diesel was clearly the best player.

Kobe's defensively > Shaq in the 01 playoffs, and so what if Kobe can't rebound like prime Shaq.. That's like saying Shaq couldn't provide Kobes assist..

Kobe averaged 1 less point through the playoffs.. Led the team in assist, averaged 2 steals, a block & dropped Jordan esque numbers in the semis and WCF and had a damn good finals after his only off game of the entire playoffs.

Shaq had never beat Duncan w/o an elite Kobe beside him. Kobe absolutely dominated at times and made Shaq (a guy who some people call the MDE) look like a clear 2nd option for stretches.

That 01 Lakers team had 2 of the greatest players ever dominating at the same time for an entire playoff stretch.

[stalkerforlife]

Kobe and Wade.

[Nowitness]

Kobe's defensively > Shaq in the 01 playoffs, and so what if Kobe can't rebound like prime Shaq.. That's like saying Shaq couldn't provide Kobes assist..

Kobe averaged 1 less point through the playoffs.. Led the team in assist, averaged 2 steals, a block & dropped Jordan esque numbers in the semis and WCF and had a damn good finals after his only off game of the entire playoffs.

Shaq had never beat Duncan w/o an elite Kobe beside him. Kobe absolutely dominated at times and made Shaq (a guy who some people call the MDE) look like a clear 2nd option for stretches.

That 01 Lakers team had 2 of the greatest players ever dominating at the same time for an entire playoff stretch.

does this kid really believe that a guard had a bigger defensive impact than a 7 footer? wow. :facepalm

shaq shut down robinson and vlade. peja and antonio daniels had very good series against kobe. AI outright embarrassed him.

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2001.html

shaq with a +3.5. kobe with a -0.2. and that rating is adjusted for position...so really shaq had 10x the defensive impact. :facepalm

[Smoke117]

Kobe's defensively > Shaq in the 01 playoffs, and so what if Kobe can't rebound like prime Shaq.. That's like saying Shaq couldn't provide Kobes assist..

Kobe averaged 1 less point through the playoffs.. Led the team in assist, averaged 2 steals, a block & dropped Jordan esque numbers in the semis and WCF and had a damn good finals after his only off game of the entire playoffs.

Shaq had never beat Duncan w/o an elite Kobe beside him. Kobe absolutely dominated at times and made Shaq (a guy who some people call the MDE) look like a clear 2nd option for stretches.

That 01 Lakers team had 2 of the greatest players ever dominating at the same time for an entire playoff stretch.

:biggums: :roll: :roll: :roll: Yeah a guard was better and more important defensively than a 350lb behemoth in the paint. Even a Lazy Shaq in or near his prime is worlds apart in impact defensively compared to Kobe. As far as assist, in 2001 Kobe averaged 5apg to Shaqs 3.7 in the regular season and 6.1 to Shaqs 3.1 in the playoffs...not exactly comparing Shaq to Stockton here.

[ballinhun8]

Shaq and Wade.

[Papaya Petee]

26/7/7/1/1 on 51% vs 26/6/5/2/1 on 50%. Lebron had a higher usage % and took more shots. Wade was better in the playoffs, especially in their two hardest series vs Boston and Dallas. Philly series was a wash and Lebron did better vs Chicago. Then Lebron had the biggest chokejob in NBA finals history. How can any Lebron stan say its clearly Lebron blows my mind.

[Milbuck]

Shaq was definitely the best player on the 2001 Lakers..but people are exaggerating how big the gap was, mostly because of Shaq's god-tier finals performance. Overall in the playoffs, specifically against the WC, it was as close to a 1A/1B scenario as you could get.

Kobe against the WC (1st 3 rounds): 32/7/6/2/1 on 58% TS,
Shaq against the WC (1st 3 rounds): 29/15/3/2/1 on 56% TS

Shaq to me clearly has the edge in defensive impact and rebounding, considering his role as a rim protector..although Kobe in 2001 was as good a perimeter defender as you'll find. Kobe was right with him offensively as well, scoring more and assisting more on slightly higher efficiency, and being the go-to guy in the clutch.

Kobe Net On/Off in the playoffs: +14.2

Shaq Net On/Off in the playoffs: -0.3

Obviously this is misleading..but it's worth noting. Shaq made a big impact defensively, but Kobe's impact offensively was pretty damn high, and he was invaluable in the clutch.

Then you look at individual series...

Like the WCSF against the Kings...Kobe put up 35/9/4/1/1 on 59% TS, Shaq put up 33/17/2/3/1 on 59% TS. Then the conference finals against Duncan's Spurs...Kobe 33/7/7/2/1 on 57% TS, Shaq 27/13/3/1/1 on 54% TS..

The majority of the Lakers 2001 run was with a 1A/1B setup..Shaq went nuts in the finals and that seems to skew the perception a bit. But when Kobe averages (collectively) 34/8/6/2/1 on 58% TS with elite defense against back-to-back 50 win teams in the 55 win Kings and the 58 win #1 defense Spurs...I just don't understand how we can act like he was the same sidekick he was the year before in 2000.

[tpols]

:biggums: :roll: :roll: :roll: Yeah a guard was better and more important defensively than a 350lb behemoth in the paint. Even a Lazy Shaq in or near his prime is worlds apart in impact defensively compared to Kobe. As far as assist, in 2001 Kobe averaged 5apg to Shaqs 3.7 in the regular season and 6.1 to Shaqs 3.1 in the playoffs...not exactly comparing Shaq to Stockton here.

And shaq averaged 15 rebounds to Kobe's 7.. Both with a ratio of about 2.0.

Kobe also led the league in 4th quarter playoff scoring and closed out games for LA while shaq sat on the bench in foul trouble or was a liability while he was on the court late in games because of his poor FT shooting

[TheMarkMadsen]

:biggums: :roll: :roll: :roll: Yeah a guard was better and more important defensively than a 350lb behemoth in the paint. Even a Lazy Shaq in or near his prime is worlds apart in impact defensively compared to Kobe. As far as assist, in 2001 Kobe averaged 5apg to Shaqs 3.7 in the regular season and 6.1 to Shaqs 3.1 in the playoffs...not exactly comparing Shaq to Stockton here.

:biggums: :roll: :roll: :roll: Yeah a guard was better and more important defensively than a 350lb behemoth in the paint. Even a Lazy Shaq in or near his prime is worlds apart in impact defensively compared to Kobe. As far as assist, in 2001 Kobe averaged 5apg to Shaqs 3.7 in the regular season and 6.1 to Shaqs 3.1 in the playoffs...not exactly comparing Shaq to Stockton here.

You knocked Kobe for not grabbing as many rebounds as Shaq.. You know you're reaching at that point. Shaq averaged twice as many rebounds as Kobe.. Kobe averaged twice as many assist..

Just because Kobes a guard doesn't mean he can't be a better defender than a center :facepalm

For what it's worth Kobe & Shaqs defensive win share were seperated by .2 in Shaqs favor and their offensive win shares separated by .3 in Kobes favor.

I guess theres no argument for Kawhi being a better defender than Duncan in the finals because Kawhi is shorter and weighs less than Duncan :rolleyes:

[Nowitness]

I guess theres no argument for Kawhi being a better defender than Duncan in the finals because Kawhi is shorter and weighs less than Duncan :rolleyes:

you are right. you cant

[Milbuck]

you are right. you cant
Except that you can.

[tpols]

come playoff time dwades raw and advanced numbers are significantly better than Lebron's while shaq and Kobe's are near identical. When you add in that Kobe was the best closer out of all 4 and Lebron the worst it's clear the order is

1a. Shaq
1b. Kobe

1. Wade
2. Lebron

[kenuffff]

anyone that says kobe should automatically be banned from this board. im serious. you honestly have no clue about basketball.

[Droid101]

Like the WCSF against the Kings...Kobe put up 35/9/4/1/1 on 59% TS, Shaq put up 33/17/2/3/1 on 59% TS. Then the conference finals against Duncan's Spurs...Kobe 33/7/7/2/1 on 57% TS, Shaq 27/13/3/1/1 on 54% TS..

http://tragicjohnsonblog.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/marbury.gif

Imagine even one person putting up stats like that against two 55+ win teams in the playoffs.... let alone TWO players, these days. This will never happen again.

[kenuffff]

You knocked Kobe for not grabbing as many rebounds as Shaq.. You know you're reaching at that point. Shaq averaged twice as many rebounds as Kobe.. Kobe averaged twice as many assist..

Just because Kobes a guard doesn't mean he can't be a better defender than a center :facepalm

For what it's worth Kobe & Shaqs defensive win share were seperated by .2 in Shaqs favor and their offensive win shares separated by .3 in Kobes favor.

I guess theres no argument for Kawhi being a better defender than Duncan in the finals because Kawhi is shorter and weighs less than Duncan :rolleyes:

did you even watch basketball in 2001? i'm skeptical you even were old enough to grasp what you were seeing, you know there is this thing called a double team..that shaq tended to get quite a bit of, and that frees up other players like kobe , you do realize the most important part of the triangle is the post player right?

[Droid101]

did you even watch basketball in 2001? i'm skeptical you even were old enough to grasp what you were seeing, you know there is this thing called a double team..that shaq tended to get quite a bit of, and that frees up other players like kobe , you do realize the most important part of the triangle is the post player right?
It's true. Kobe never got double teamed ever. Look it up.

[kenuffff]

It's true. Kobe never got double teamed ever. Look it up.

he wasn't getting that many in 01. seriously if you even entertain the idea of kobe you're a moron, shaq had a game in the finals where it was 28 points/20 rebounds and like 8 assist and close to 10 blocks. i'd have to look up the exact game/numbers.

[HOoopCityJones]

http://tragicjohnsonblog.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/marbury.gif

Imagine even one person putting up stats like that against two 55+ win teams in the playoffs.... let alone TWO players, these days. This will never happen again.

This is why I say Shaq and Kobe are the greatest duo of All-time. :bowdown:

God tier numbers.

[tpols]

he wasn't getting that many in 01. seriously if you even entertain the idea of kobe you're a moron, shaq had a game in the finals where it was 28 points/20 rebounds and like 8 assist and close to 10 blocks. i'd have to look up the exact game/numbers.

And Kobe had a 48/16 game to close a series and a 45/10 game to open the next.. you wanna talk individual games? lol..

[miles berg]

Shaq for sure, dude was dominant unlike anything we had seen at center since Hakeem in the early to mid 90s. Probably even better.

2011 was Dirk. Why are we talking about the 2nd best team?

[J Shuttlesworth]

Shaq - RS: 28.7/12.7/3.4
PO- 30.4/15.4/3.1

Kobe - RS: 28.5/5.9/5.0 FG: 48.9%
PO: 29.4/7.3/6.1 FG: 48.5%

LeBron - RS: 26.7/7.5/7 55%
PO: 23.7/8.5/6.9 FG:46%

Wade: RS: 25.5/6.4/4.6 53% FG
PO: 24.5/7.1/4.4 48% FG

Shaq/LeBron have the overall better years, but the gap isn't huge

[Stringer Bell]

Shaq and Lebron.

Even after his choke job in the finals, Lebron was chosen on that ESPN ranking as the #1 player in the NBA. Not too many people disagreed.

[ArbitraryWater]

Kobe's defensively > Shaq in the 01 playoffs, and so what if Kobe can't rebound like prime Shaq.. That's like saying Shaq couldn't provide Kobes assist..

Kobe averaged 1 less point through the playoffs.. Led the team in assist, averaged 2 steals, a block & dropped Jordan esque numbers in the semis and WCF and had a damn good finals after his only off game of the entire playoffs.

Shaq had never beat Duncan w/o an elite Kobe beside him. Kobe absolutely dominated at times and made Shaq (a guy who some people call the MDE) look like a clear 2nd option for stretches.

That 01 Lakers team had 2 of the greatest players ever dominating at the same time for an entire playoff stretch.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s261x260/994379_10201675426301727_2064623678_n.jpg