Rank the top 5 players in the league.

[Shade8780]

1. LeBron
2. KD
3. GOATbrook
4. CP3
5. Griffin

[ArbitraryWater]

Wow, pretty much what I had in mind... Although I guess I would put Howard in there, and Westbrook at 6.

[Demitri98]

1A. LeBron
1B. Durant

No order:

Westbrook
CP3
Griffin
Davis
Melo

[oti]

Lebron
Durant
Griffin
Davis
Melo

[MP.Trey]

1a. LeBron
1b. Durant
3. Griffin
4. Westbrook
5. CP3

[Fudge]

1. Durant
2. LeBron
3. Davis
4. Westbrook
5. CP3

[Shade8780]

I'm a big fan of Davis, but he's too raw to be top 5 based on his 2013-14 season. Top 10, probably, but not top 5 yet. I wouldn't be surprised if he goes crazy this season though.

[WillC]

1 - LeBron James
2 - Kevin Durant
3 - Chris Paul
4 - Carmelo Anthony
5 - Kevin Love

Toughest omissions: Anthony Davis, Blake Griffin, James Harden

[Shade8780]

1 - LeBron James
2 - Kevin Durant
3 - Chris Paul
4 - Carmelo Anthony
5 - Kevin Love

Toughest omissions: Anthony Davis, Blake Griffin, James Harden
:durantunimpressed:

[Heavincent]

1. Bran
2. KD
3. Unibrow
4. Curry
5. Chuckbrook/Blake

[ArbitraryWater]

1. Bran
2. KD
3. Unibrow
4. Curry
5. Chuckbrook/Blake

:oldlol: I like that..

Basically, you're not his fan, but like 'fack this, this nigguh back at 1 again'

But Curry too high doe


@WillC: Your toughest omission was James Harden, yet you don't mention Howard (Who dominated Harden come playoff time) or Westbrook :biggums:

[Heavincent]

:oldlol: I like that..

Basically, you're not his fan, but like 'fack this, this nigguh back at 1 again'

But Curry too high doe


@WillC: Your toughest omission was James Harden, yet you don't mention Howard (Who dominated Harden come playoff time) or Westbrook :biggums:

KD was number 1 in the regular season last year, but you could make the case that he was outperformed by Retardbrook in the playoffs, so he's back to number 2.

[guy]

Going into next year, I'm going to assume Rose is back in his MVP form (huge assumption I know)

1. Lebron
2. Durant
3. CP3
4. Rose
5. Melo

I must say, it's a weak era of superstars. Other then Lebron and Durant, all the other superstars would have a hard time making the top 5 in most years from the 80s to 00s.

And it used to only be the center position that was weak compared to previous years. But no SGs and PFs have really stepped in and came close to making up for the declines of Kobe, Wade, Duncan, KG, and Dirk, so the same can now be said for those positions as well.

[T_L_P]

Going into next season:

1. LeBron
2. Durant
3. Paul
4. Griffin
5. Love

Weakest era for superstars man.

[Heavincent]

I must say, it's a weak era of superstars. Other then Lebron and Durant, all the other superstars would have a hard time making the top 5 in most years from the 80s to 00s.

Not to mention the two best players flop like little bitches.

[All Net]

Lebron
Durant
Davis
Paul
Love/Griffin/Westbrook (all same tier)

[Lebron23]

Lebron
Durant
Paul
Davis
Griffin

[TheMarkMadsen]

KD
Bran
WB
Cp3
Love

[Beastmode88]

1. Lebron
2. Durant
3. Westbrook
4. Paul
5. Griffin / Davis

[Nowitness]

When was the last time the two best players in the league were so clearly defined? Shaq and Duncan? Duncan and Garnett?

[Milbuck]

It's really not a weak era for superstars, it's just like 2-3 years away from the peak of this era.

This era is stacked with semi-young but not quite at their peak stars...guys who are like 23-25 years old, so old enough to do serious damage in the league but not quite at their best. Guys like...

Kevin Durant
Blake Griffin
Kevin Love
Russell Westbrook
Paul George
Steph Curry
Derrick Rose
Damian Lillard
John Wall
Demarcus Cousins
Kyrie Irving
Klay Thompson
Kawhi Leonard
Demar Derozan

In like 2-3 years when most of these guys are at their peaks...it's gonna be exciting as hell. And then you have the prospects/even younger guys with a ton of potential...

Anthony Davis
Andre Drummond
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Jabari Parker
Joel Embiid
Bradley Beal
Victor Oladipo
Andrew Wiggins


The league is STACKED with talent. It's just not fully refined though considering the age of most of the talent. Honestly by 2016 this might be one of the strongest eras out there..

[ArbitraryWater]

When was the last time the two best players in the league were so clearly defined? Shaq and Duncan? Duncan and Garnett?

2004, Shaq/Duncan... 2011 is too much LeBron/Dirk/Wade/Howard.. No clear 2nd

Before is LeBron/Wade/Kobe, then Kobe/LeBron/Garnett/Paul (08), then Dirk/Kobe/LeBron/Duncan/Nash/Wade (06+07), 2005 2nd spot up for grabs behind Timmy, so yeah, 2004...

[BuffaloBill]

1. LeBron
2. KD
3. Blake Griffin
4. Dwight Howard
5. Chris Paul/Westbrook




Should have made this thread top 10 or top 15 instead

[ArbitraryWater]

1. LeBron
2. KD
3. Blake Griffin
4. Dwight Howard
5. Chris Paul/Westbrook




Should have made this thread top 10 or top 15 instead

Finally a well deserved Howard mention :applause:

[Milbuck]

Finally a well deserved Howard mention :applause:
Dwight is not a top 5 player..in 2011, absolutely. But not now. If we factor in the whole season, regular season included, what has he done the past year to be ranked over CP3, Westbrook, or Curry? He had one great playoff series, albeit against a pretty weak defensive front court in Aldridge/Lopez...which reminds me..how is he better than Aldridge?

[guy]

It's really not a weak era for superstars, it's just like 2-3 years away from the peak of this era.

This era is stacked with semi-young but not quite at their peak stars...guys who are like 23-25 years old, so old enough to do serious damage in the league but not quite at their best. Guys like...

Kevin Durant
Blake Griffin
Kevin Love
Russell Westbrook
Paul George
Steph Curry
Derrick Rose
Damian Lillard
John Wall
Demarcus Cousins
Kyrie Irving
Klay Thompson
Kawhi Leonard
Demar Derozan

In like 2-3 years when most of these guys are at their peaks...it's gonna be exciting as hell. And then you have the prospects/even younger guys with a ton of potential...

Anthony Davis
Andre Drummond
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Jabari Parker
Joel Embiid
Bradley Beal
Victor Oladipo
Andrew Wiggins


The league is STACKED with talent. It's just not fully refined though considering the age of most of the talent. Honestly by 2016 this might be one of the strongest eras out there..

From that list minus the rookies (can't really judge them yet), only Kevin Durant (who already has IMO) and Anthony Davis has a chance to get to that level of play that players like Barkley, Malone, Robinson, Ewing, Duncan, KG, Kobe, Dirk, Wade, etc were at during their prime. Some of those players haven't hit their peak, but we've seen enough of them to know what level they won't get to.

[Smook A.]

Going into next season.

1. LeBron James
2. Kevin Durant
3. Russell Westbrook
4. Chris Paul
5. Anthony Davis/Blake Griffin

[Shade8780]

1. LeBron
2. KD
3. Blake Griffin
4. Dwight Howard
5. Chris Paul/Westbrook




Should have made this thread top 10 or top 15 instead
Everytime I've seen a top 10 thread, it gets either zero replies or a bunch of trolls come in and there's terrible lists.

But feel free to post your top 10, I'm not stopping you.

[BuffaloBill]

Finally a well deserved Howard mention :applause:


That was an accident. I mean to put Kawhi Leonard

[guy]

Everytime I've seen a top 10 thread, it gets either zero replies or a bunch of trolls come in and there's terrible lists.

But feel free to post your top 10, I'm not stopping you.

1. Lebron
2. Durant
3. CP3
4. Rose
5. Melo
6. Davis
7. Curry
8. Howard
9. Love
10. Aldridge

-I could probably put Parker, Westbrook, Harden, Griffin, Wall, Rondo, Noah, Bosh, and maybe even Duncan or Dirk in there. I can't say there's a whole lot separating #3-#20 in the league.

[Beastmode88]

It's really not a weak era for superstars, it's just like 2-3 years away from the peak of this era.

This era is stacked with semi-young but not quite at their peak stars...guys who are like 23-25 years old, so old enough to do serious damage in the league but not quite at their best. Guys like...

Kevin Durant
Blake Griffin
Kevin Love
Russell Westbrook
Paul George
Steph Curry
Derrick Rose
Damian Lillard
John Wall
Demarcus Cousins
Kyrie Irving
Klay Thompson
Kawhi Leonard
Demar Derozan

In like 2-3 years when most of these guys are at their peaks...it's gonna be exciting as hell. And then you have the prospects/even younger guys with a ton of potential...

Anthony Davis
Andre Drummond
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Jabari Parker
Joel Embiid
Bradley Beal
Victor Oladipo
Andrew Wiggins


The league is STACKED with talent. It's just not fully refined though considering the age of most of the talent. Honestly by 2016 this might be one of the strongest eras out there..

I like how you included 10+ players yet you don't have melo. For the record melo is my 7th pick.

[Milbuck]

From that list minus the rookies (can't really judge them yet), only Kevin Durant (who already has IMO) and Anthony Davis has a chance to get to that level of play that players like Barkley, Malone, Robinson, Ewing, Duncan, KG, Kobe, Dirk, Wade, etc were at during their prime. Some of those players haven't hit their peak, but we've seen enough of them to know what level they won't get to.
Well not all of them have to..

The 90s were filled with different tiers of stars..not everyone was a Jordan, Barkley, Hakeem, etc. I don't think it's out of the question for guys like Westbrook and Wall to reach peak Gary Payton level...Love is already putting up prime Barkley numbers with like 3-4 years to improve and now finally has a good team around him..Blake was a legit MVP candidate and put up 28/8/4/1/1 on 61% TS over a month without CP3, leading the Clips to a great record. And like Love..he's got like 3-4 years left to improve. Steph Curry just had a season of 24/4/9/2 on 61% TS with GOAT-level shooting and led his team to 51 wins in a historically tough conference.. Even someone consistently clowned on like Melo over the past 2 years has put up 28/8/3/1/1 on 56% TS, and lead a 54 win team when he had talent around him.

All I'm saying is that it's easy to look at 23-25 year olds and say "they'll never be as good as so and so from the past"...but how many times in history have we seen players take HUGE jumps with their games? Like KD from the past as a pure scorer to an all around monster today? Blake who to many was just a dunker, now he's got a wet jumper and some of the best handles for his position? Or Anthony Davis who went from a skinny 14 ppg rookie to a 21ppg beast in just one year?

[Milbuck]

I like how you included 10+ players yet you don't have melo. For the record melo is my 7th pick.
I was talking only about young guys who aren't quite at their peak yet..which is why Lebron and CP3 aren't there either.

[guy]

Well not all of them have to..

The 90s were filled with different tiers of stars..not everyone was a Jordan, Barkley, Hakeem, etc. I don't think it's out of the question for guys like Westbrook and Wall to reach peak Gary Payton level...Love is already putting up prime Barkley numbers with like 3-4 years to improve and now finally has a good team around him..Blake was a legit MVP candidate and put up 28/8/4/1/1 on 61% TS over a month without CP3, leading the Clips to a great record. And like Love..he's got like 3-4 years left to improve. Steph Curry just had a season of 24/4/9/2 on 61% TS with GOAT-level shooting and led his team to 51 wins in a historically tough conference.. Even someone consistently clowned on like Melo over the past 2 years has put up 28/8/3/1/1 on 56% TS, and lead a 54 win team when he had talent around him.

All I'm saying is that it's easy to look at 23-25 year olds and say "they'll never be as good as so and so from the past"...but how many times in history have we seen players take HUGE jumps with their games? Like KD from the past as a pure scorer to an all around monster today? Blake who to many was just a dunker, now he's got a wet jumper and some of the best handles for his position? Or Anthony Davis who went from a skinny 14 ppg rookie to a 21ppg beast in just one year?

Kevin Love couldn't even get to the playoffs once in six years. He doesn't compare to Barkleyif he can't even do that. KD and Blake haven't had any bigger jumps in their games then players in the past have had. Just like KD and Blake, a lot of players as they grow expand on their game, but it might not be as evident looking back because usually their production doesn't change that much.

Westbrook and Wall getting to Payton-level is nice and all, but Payton was never a top 5 player, which kind of proves my point, because I could easily see those guys get into the top 5 in today's era.

I'm a huge Joakim Noah fan, but he was 4th in MVP voting. I don't think that would've ever came close to happening in the 80s, 90s, or 00s.

[ArbitraryWater]

Dwight is not a top 5 player..in 2011, absolutely. But not now. If we factor in the whole season, regular season included, what has he done the past year to be ranked over CP3, Westbrook, or Curry? He had one great playoff series, albeit against a pretty weak defensive front court in Aldridge/Lopez...which reminds me..how is he better than Aldridge?

Honestly, what's changed since 2011?

Sure, his defense isn't AS dominant as it used to be, mainly due to Injuries to his back... But all the last postseason showed me, is that when Howard is your 1st Option offensively, he can still score like a beast... An efficient 26 ppg, with a refined postgame. Still not smooth, but some well used power moves, touch around the basket, and basic up and unders...


That was an accident. I mean to put Kawhi Leonard

lmfao srsly

[qrich]

1] James
2] Durant
3] Paul
4] Unibrow
5] Da-White

[Cold soul]

Mine:

1. LeBron
2. KD
3. CP3
4. Westbrook
5. Griffin

This current era is so weak for superstar players.

[Budadiiii]

1. Perkins

*GAP*



Everyone else

[Milbuck]

Kevin Love couldn't even get to the playoffs once in six years. He doesn't compare to Barkley if he can't even do that. KD and Blake haven't had any bigger jumps in their games then players in the past have had. Just like KD and Blake, a lot of players as they grow expand on their game, but it might not be as evident looking back because usually their production doesn't change that much.First off..I'm not saying Kevin Love is or ever will be better than Barkley..I'm 100% positive he won't.

Still, he wasn't gifted the opportunity to enter a team with Dr. J, Moses, Cheeks, etc. He went into a (sorry Wolves fans) shit franchise and had thoroughly mediocre supporting casts every single year. The dude put up 26/13/4/1/1 on 59% TS and took his team to 40 wins, it's not like they were awful. If they had just ONE reliable second option...Rubio is essentially worthless as a scorer and Pekovic missed almost 30 games...they would've easily made the playoffs and won something like 48-52 games. Love is clearly an imperfect player..but he's still an absolute monster who with a bit of help could've been doing some great things in the playoffs. Give him CP3 to feed him and Deandre Jordan to take care of the interior defense and who knows how we'd view Love right now?

Their production doesn't change? Did Blake not go from 18/8 on 57% TS in 2012-13 to 24/10 on 58% TS in 2013-14? The dude has clearly elevated his game from star level to borderline superstar level. We need to give credit where credit is due...Blake is arriving as a great player and he's not nearly done yet. To suggest he won't ever even approach Barkley/Malone level is a bit unfair. If he's putting up 26-27/11/4/1/1 in 3 years on a contending team, which is entirely realistic, I don't see how we can't consider him in the league of those PFs of the past.

Westbrook and Wall getting to Payton-level is nice and all, but Payton was never a top 5 player, which kind of proves my point, because I could easily see those guys get into the top 5 in today's era.Okay..but Wall might not even be a top 5 player in this era when he maxes out. Again..Lebron, KD, Davis, Blake, Love, CP3, Westbrook, in-form Rose...we're talking several high-ceiling players, enough so that even if Wall reaches GP level, which I think is very possible considering he just turned 24, he still might not be a top 5 player in this era.

I'm a huge Joakim Noah fan, but he was 4th in MVP voting. I don't think that would've ever came close to happening in the 80s, 90s, or 00s.
This shouldn't matter, because Noah shouldn't have been 4th in MVP voting. That is a bad decision by the voters, not a reflection on this era.

It was a good story, with him taking his game to the next level and leading a weakened Bulls team to a semi-high seed. I can see the rationale behind him being in the top 10 in MVP voting...but top 4 was a huge exaggeration and doesn't reflect this era's talent.

As an overall player he doesn't sniff the top 10, not even top 15.

Honestly, what's changed since 2011?

Sure, his defense isn't AS dominant as it used to be, mainly due to Injuries to his back... But all the last postseason showed me, is that when Howard is your 1st Option offensively, he can still score like a beast... An efficient 26 ppg, with a refined postgame. Still not smooth, but some well used power moves, touch around the basket, and basic up and unders...

What's changed is that he's a shell of himself physically/athletically, which means he's nowhere near the all-around terror on defense he used to be. He's still a 1st-team caliber defender, but he's not the clear-cut dominant DPOY he used to be. And that was his strong case as a top 5 player back 3-4 years ago. Right now he's just marginally above the Marc Gasol-Joakim Noah-Deandre Jordan level defensively.

And offensively he's not even the best for his position..one great playoff series doesn't magically erase the fact that he put up 18ppg over the regular season..while guys like Cousins can give you 23 ppg, Jefferson 22 ppg, etc with a much more expansive scoring arsenal and post game, and free throw shooting. Dwight was sensational against Portland..but one series doesn't immediately elevate him to top 5 status, when considering the whole year, he absolutely was not a top 5 player.

[ArbitraryWater]

What's changed is that he's a shell of himself physically/athletically, which means he's nowhere near the all-around terror on defense he used to be. He's still a 1st-team caliber defender, but he's not the clear-cut dominant DPOY he used to be. And that was his strong case as a top 5 player back 3-4 years ago. Right now he's just marginally above the Marc Gasol-Joakim Noah-Deandre Jordan level defensively.

And offensively he's not even the best for his position..one great playoff series doesn't magically erase the fact that he put up 18ppg over the regular season..while guys like Cousins can give you 23 ppg, Jefferson 22 ppg, etc with a much more expansive scoring arsenal and post game, and free throw shooting. Dwight was sensational against Portland..but one series doesn't immediately elevate him to top 5 status, when considering the whole year, he absolutely was not a top 5 player.

It's just a case of showing what he can do scoring wise come Playoff time... Seriously. That's it. Cousins or Jefferson wouldn't be averaging those amounts either as 2nd Option, WITH a James Harden... So what you get is a guy with the 2nd best scoring Output of volume/efficiency after LeBron, with STILL DPOTY like Defense... I mean, you said it yourself, he's still better than a Marc Gasol/Joakim Noah. Dwight can give you a CONSISTENT 22/13 on 57% with DPOTY Defense... I ain't taking Curry or Aldridge over that... Curry is still a bit too hot and cold, and I love the guy, but I expected a bit more this past post-season.

[Milbuck]

It's just a case of showing what he can do scoring wise come Playoff time... Seriously. That's it. Cousins or Jefferson wouldn't be averaging those amounts either as 2nd Option, WITH a James Harden... So what you get is a guy with the 2nd best scoring Output of volume/efficiency after LeBron, with STILL DPOTY like Defense... I mean, you said it yourself, he's still better than a Marc Gasol/Joakim Noah. Dwight can give you a CONSISTENT 22/13 on 57% with DPOTY Defense... I ain't taking Curry or Aldridge over that... Curry is still a bit too hot and cold, and I love the guy, but I expected a bit more this past post-season.
No, he actually can't anymore. Which is my point.

Over the course of a season he put up 18/12 with great but not DPOY-caliber defense. If he could be a consistent 22/13 player with DPOY defense...he would've put up those stats and been the DPOY. There's a reason why the Rockets went from the 16th to the 13th best defense...he's great defensively, but he's just not the incredible defensive force he was 3-4 years ago. And him having James Harden should have no relevance to his production and defense. They would run more offense through him if he had a reliable, skilled post skill set and wasn't turnover prone when he got the ball and was pressured down low.

Even during his peak 22ppg season in Orlando..he was a generational athlete for his position and they ran EVERYTHING through him.

Yeah, he torched Portland for 6 games this year. But if we factor in the entire regular season before that, he's shown that he's not exactly the best at adjusting his game that well to another star caliber offensive player on his team..because he's not someone you can count on every single night to just throw the ball to down low and say "score right now".

Give me 24/4/9/2 on 61% TS Steph Curry who lead his team to 51 wins as the #1. Obviously Lebron and KD. Give me Westbrook..who torched the Grizzlies, went toe-to-toe if not outplayed another top 2 PG against the Clippers, and straight up embarrassed one of the best PGs in the game in the WCF. Give me Chris Paul who put up 19/4/11/3 on 58% TS and whose playoff run is totally underrated because of just a few boneheaded plays. Give me CP3's own teammate Blake Griffin who was 3rd in MVP voting, putting up 28/8/4/1/1 for almost a month and a half and leading his team to a good record without CP3. Give me Lamarcus Aldridge who put up 23/11/3/1/1 while leading his team to the same record as the back-to-back defending champions and absolutely slaughtering the Rockets with back-to-back 40 point games in the first round. And that's just the start..there's several players after that who all are either better (right now or into next year) or have a good case..like Love, Davis, Lillard, Melo, etc.

[Smook A.]

I was talking only about young guys who aren't quite at their peak yet..which is why Lebron and CP3 aren't there either.
I understand you don't like Harden at all but he should be in that list too.

[RRR3]

Not to mention the two best players flop like little bitches .
You could argue 4 of the top 5 players (LBJ KD CP3 BG could all be ranked top 5) are flippers :lol



My list

1a. LeBron
1b. Durant
3. CP3
4. Westbrook
5. Anthony Davis?

Honorable mentions: Stephen Curry, Dwight Howard, Blake Griffin, Kevin Love, James Harden, Paul George, LaMarcus Aldridge. D-Rose if he returns to form.

[Lebronxrings]

1. lebron
2. westbrook
3. griffin
4. davis
5. cp3/ibaka/durant

[guy]

First off..I'm not saying Kevin Love is or ever will be better than Barkley..I'm 100% positive he won't.

Still, he wasn't gifted the opportunity to enter a team with Dr. J, Moses, Cheeks, etc. He went into a (sorry Wolves fans) shit franchise and had thoroughly mediocre supporting casts every single year. The dude put up 26/13/4/1/1 on 59% TS and took his team to 40 wins, it's not like they were awful. If they had just ONE reliable second option...Rubio is essentially worthless as a scorer and Pekovic missed almost 30 games...they would've easily made the playoffs and won something like 48-52 games. Love is clearly an imperfect player..but he's still an absolute monster who with a bit of help could've been doing some great things in the playoffs. Give him CP3 to feed him and Deandre Jordan to take care of the interior defense and who knows how we'd view Love right now?

We're not talking about winning a playoff series. We're not even talking about NEVER missing the playoffs at all. Just make the playoffs at least once in six years. Seriously, I could be wrong, but I can't think of ANY superstar ever that couldn't get his team to the playoffs at least once in 6 years.

The fact that a guy that hasn't made the playoffs this whole time is actually arguably a top 5 player speaks to a weak era in superstars.



Their production doesn't change? Did Blake not go from 18/8 on 57% TS in 2012-13 to 24/10 on 58% TS in 2013-14? The dude has clearly elevated his game from star level to borderline superstar level. We need to give credit where credit is due...Blake is arriving as a great player and he's not nearly done yet. To suggest he won't ever even approach Barkley/Malone level is a bit unfair. If he's putting up 26-27/11/4/1/1 in 3 years on a contending team, which is entirely realistic, I don't see how we can't consider him in the league of those PFs of the past.


He's definitely a better player, but his production hasn't changed much. 2013 was a down year for him, a lot of that having to do with lower minutes. He was putting up big numbers in 2011 and 2012 as well.

Those numbers aren't that realistic. Maybe for one year. He's already going into his 5th year. Barkley and Malone were putting up numbers like that in their 3rd years His numbers aren't going to jump that much. It doesn't really happen, even when players improve. Maybe if an injury happened and he just put his team on his back the way players like Kobe, Lebron, Wade, and Durant have done in more recent years and their numbers jumped as a result, but I don't see him as that caliber of player.



Okay..but Wall might not even be a top 5 player in this era when he maxes out. Again..Lebron, KD, Davis, Blake, Love, CP3, Westbrook, in-form Rose...we're talking several high-ceiling players, enough so that even if Wall reaches GP level, which I think is very possible considering he just turned 24, he still might not be a top 5 player in this era.

I'm just saying I could see Wall and/or Westbrook as top 5 players, which proves my point. Obviously if that never happens, that would go against my point, but we can't really prove anything right now.

Put it this way. Would Gary Payton from 96-2000 be a top 5 player today? Very good chance he would be. But for the majority of the years in the 80s, 90s, and 00s, he wouldn't be even that close.



This shouldn't matter, because Noah shouldn't have been 4th in MVP voting. That is a bad decision by the voters, not a reflection on this era.

It was a good story, with him taking his game to the next level and leading a weakened Bulls team to a semi-high seed. I can see the rationale behind him being in the top 10 in MVP voting...but top 4 was a huge exaggeration and doesn't reflect this era's talent.

As an overall player he doesn't sniff the top 10, not even top 15.

Well, I'd disagree. He did deserve that high of a voting, and is arguably a top 10-15 player especially considering his intangibles.

And again, look at the quality level by position. For centers, Howard/Noah/Marc doesn't compare at all to KAJ/Moses/Parish/Hakeem in the 80s, Hakeem/Robinson/Ewing/Shaq/Zo in the 90s, and then Shaq/Ben/Yao in the 00s (00s were weak for centers as well, but at least having Shaq makes it automatically better then this era so far.) For shooting guards, Harden/Wade(old,injured)/Kobe(old, injured) doesn't compare to Jordan/Drexler/Moncrief in the 80s, Jordan/Drexler/Miller/Dumars/Richmond in the 90s, or Kobe/AI/T-Mac/Wade/Ray/Carter in the 00s. And yes even for power forwards, Davis/Griffin/Love/Aldridge/Bosh doesn't compare to McHale/Barkley/Malone in the 80s, Malone/Barkley/Kemp/Webber/Rodman in the 90s, or Duncan/KG/Dirk/Webber/Amare/Gasol/Bosh in the 00s. And yes, I realize I'm comparing decades against 1 season, but the point still stands even if you look deeper then that minus maybe for a year here and there (i.e. clearly 94 was a weak year for SGs with Jordan out, and Drexler on the decline). You wouldn't find an argument from me about the PGs and SFs, but even then in most of the same comparisons I wouldn't say they blow any of the previous eras out the water (I'd probably say the 10s SFs blowout the 90s SFs, but not the 80s and 00s SFs.)

And who knows? Maybe players like Love and Griffin will step up and get to that Barkley/Malone/Duncan/KG/Dirk level eventually, and others players in other positions will get to those high levels as well. But at least next year its probably not happening. Thus, at least for now, its a weak era for superstars.

And I believe you mentioned tiers earlier. Put it like this. For most of the 80s, that first tier probably included Magic/Bird/Jordan and the second tier included KAJ/Moses/Isiah/Dr. J/Hakeem/Malone/Barkley. For most of the 90s, that first tier probably included Jordan/Hakeem and the second tier included Malone/Barkley/Robinson/Ewing/Shaq. For most of the 00s, that first tier probably included Shaq/Duncan/Kobe/Lebron and the second tier included KG/Dirk/Wade/AI/T-Mac/Nash. If you took next year's best players, you'd probably have Lebron in the first tier of every decade, and Durant in at least the second tier of every decade. Everyone else? I could MAYBE see Chris Paul getting in the second tier of some of those years. MAYBE. I couldn't see anyone else though get in one of the top 2 tiers.

[Cone]

lol @ kevin love being top 10

[Doranku]

1. KD
2. Bran
3. Westbrook
4. CP3
5. Davis

[Smook A.]

And that's just the start..there's several players after that who all are either better (right now or into next year) or have a good case..like Love, Davis, Lillard, Melo, etc.
You actually think Damian Lillard has a good case of being a better player than Dwight Howard? Yeah, Lillard is a great offensive player, but really... what else is he good at? His defense is horrible, he's not really much of a playmaker (Only averaged 5.6 apg last season), and his FG% is just barely over 40%. And no i'm not saying this just because he lit up the Rockets in the playoffs and sent us home with that amazing game-winner... no. I'm actually not butthurt at all about that anymore.

Dwight may not be a good offensive player, but that doesn't mean he can't give a team 18-20 points every night. His defense might not be as good as it used to but he can still block shots here and there and can change a players shots just by jumping up and reaching as high as he can. He altered a lot of floaters and layups last season and that's one of the main reasons why he's still an amazing defensive player.

Give me a guy who averages 18/12/2/2/1 on 60% TS and plays greats defense over a guy who plays below-average defense and puts up 21/6/3/1/0.3 on 57% TS.


Their production doesn't change? Did Blake not go from 18/8 on 57% TS in 2012-13 to 24/10 on 58% TS in 2013-14? The dude has clearly elevated his game from star level to borderline superstar level.
Listen, I love Blake Griffin and I think he's one of the most exciting NBA players right now but he barely elevated his game. His jumper really did improve, but just by looking at his numbers from previous seasons, he's actually not that different. In 2012-2013 his numbers went down. I honestly think that was just a fluke season, because in his 1st NBA season, Blake was putting up 22.5 ppg/12.1 rpg/4 apg/0.8 spg/0.5 bpg on 55% TS. Last season he averaged 24 ppg/9.5 rpg/4 apg/1.2 spg/0.6 bpg on 58% TS. Compare those two seasons and look at the numbers... not really much of change, am I correct? Obviously his ppg went up (Only by 2 though), his rebounding went down probably because of DeAndre Jordan. Also his apg, bpg, and spg are nearly all the same.


As an overall player (Joakim Noah) he doesn't sniff the top 10, not even top 15.
I agree that he isn't a top 10 player at all, but in my opinion, from last season he definitely had to be in the top 15. He was playing tremendously all-around. I remember he had a couple triple-doubles and without him, the Bulls easily would've been as bad as the Detroit Pistons or Boston Celtics.

Noah was averaging what... about 13 ppg/11.3 rpg/5.4 apg/1.2 spg/1.5 bpg on 53% TS and he won the DPOY. He was an amazing defensive player last year. Just his defense alone helped the Bulls win an extra 5-10 games. Not to mention, he was also a really good passer, especially for his position. 5.4 apg is Vlade Divac level. After the all-star game, Noah was averaging 7 apg. 7.5 in March and 7.0 in April.

For me the top players last season were... LeBron James, Kevin Durant, Chris Paul, Blake Griffin, Russell Westbrook, Anthony Davis, Stephen Curry, Paul George, Kevin Love, Carmelo Anthony, James Harden, LaMarcus Aldridge, Dwight Howard, and Joakim Noah. That's 14 players right there. The 15th best player last year would either have to be Lillard, Wall, or Dragic.


This era is stacked with semi-young but not quite at their peak stars...guys who are like 23-25 years old, so old enough to do serious damage in the league but not quite at their best. Guys like...

Kevin Durant
Blake Griffin
Kevin Love
Russell Westbrook
Paul George
Steph Curry
Derrick Rose
Damian Lillard
John Wall
Demarcus Cousins
Kyrie Irving
Klay Thompson
Kawhi Leonard
Demar Derozan

Alright, your hate for James Harden is really starting to piss me off. I get it... his defense is absolutely shit and he played horrendously vs the Portland Trail Blazers in the playoffs. How in the world can you have guys like Kyrie, Lillard, Steph, and Love there if they're horrible at defense too. James Harden isn't the only bad defender in this league... Guys like Kyrie, Boogie, and Love didn't even make the playoffs and you're gonna put those guys over Harden? Really?

I don't even think Kyrie, Lillard, Klay Thompson and probably even DeRozan are better than James Harden overall. In your previous post you told AW that he can't just put Dwight in the top 5 just because he had a good postseason (I don't think he's top 5 either, btw). I mentioned this because you had Lillard in there. Yes, he had a good playoffs (A really good one, actually) but think about it... is he really better than Harden? We know both of them are bad defenders, but Harden is the better offensive player, rebounder, passer and he can steal the ball better... same with him vs Kyrie. I don't understand how you can put them over Harden. And just to clear it up, IM NOT being a homer. I'm just saying what I think is true. If I was being a homer I'd say Harden is better than half those guys... which I didn't.

All in all, I honestly feel like you underrate Harden here and its getting out of hand. You hate his guts... I get it, but that doesn't mean he's a bad player like you say he is.

[ArbitraryWater]

No, he actually can't anymore. Which is my point.

Over the course of a season he put up 18/12 with great but not DPOY-caliber defense. If he could be a consistent 22/13 player with DPOY defense...he would've put up those stats and been the DPOY. There's a reason why the Rockets went from the 16th to the 13th best defense...he's great defensively, but he's just not the incredible defensive force he was 3-4 years ago. And him having James Harden should have no relevance to his production and defense. They would run more offense through him if he had a reliable, skilled post skill set and wasn't turnover prone when he got the ball and was pressured down low.

Even during his peak 22ppg season in Orlando..he was a generational athlete for his position and they ran EVERYTHING through him.

Yeah, he torched Portland for 6 games this year. But if we factor in the entire regular season before that, he's shown that he's not exactly the best at adjusting his game that well to another star caliber offensive player on his team..because he's not someone you can count on every single night to just throw the ball to down low and say "score right now".

Give me 24/4/9/2 on 61% TS Steph Curry who lead his team to 51 wins as the #1. Obviously Lebron and KD. Give me Westbrook..who torched the Grizzlies, went toe-to-toe if not outplayed another top 2 PG against the Clippers, and straight up embarrassed one of the best PGs in the game in the WCF. Give me Chris Paul who put up 19/4/11/3 on 58% TS and whose playoff run is totally underrated because of just a few boneheaded plays. Give me CP3's own teammate Blake Griffin who was 3rd in MVP voting, putting up 28/8/4/1/1 for almost a month and a half and leading his team to a good record without CP3. Give me Lamarcus Aldridge who put up 23/11/3/1/1 while leading his team to the same record as the back-to-back defending champions and absolutely slaughtering the Rockets with back-to-back 40 point games in the first round. And that's just the start..there's several players after that who all are either better (right now or into next year) or have a good case..like Love, Davis, Lillard, Melo, etc.

How can his defense be better than Joakim Noah's or Marc Gasol's, yet not be DPOTY caliber Defense?

My main Point is, yes, Howard COULD average exactly that if you run your offense through him first, and not have Harden the chucker on his Team...

Howard in Orlando also created all the spacing for his shooters... Had alot of Hockey Assists.

Only ONE of Garnett's Minny Teams was a top 10 defensive Team... ONE.

"Him having James Harden should have no relevance to his production or defense" *biggumsface

Do you know how many times People blow by Harden? How many times Howard needs to help out? He's been doing this for 2 consecutive years now... In 2013 it was with Kobe. He saved those Teams from being even worse defensively, I saw it every time I watched them Play..

His Efficiency is showing no decrease, logically AND from what he did in the Playoffs, I can TELL you that he could average that.

And lettuce be reality here, the Warriors should have win a bit more than 51 wins... I'm not gonna blame Curry (Mark Jackson, ugh), he was perhaps a top 3 offensive player in the regular season, but I needed more in the Playoffs.


Give me Chris Paul? Yeah... Blake Griffin? Yeah... (LeBron/KD obv)... Then it gets tight for me. I don't have much of a Problem with Westbrook... Now I'd take Howard. Small case for Curry, IMO.

7th at worst... there's no way Aldridge is over Howard. This will be my final Point, 7th is as low as he should go...Lillard and Melo? Just no...

Where would you put Howard? 8?

Davis might just be the guy to go with from now on... We'll see.

This just makes me realize that the depth of this current Era is actually pretty nice IMO. Not as many SUPERSTARS / ATG Prospects, but some grooming are. Not very top heavy, but depth is pretty solid.

[Smook A.]

lol @ kevin love being top 10
He may be a shit defender but he really impacted the Wolves well by putting up some of the best numbers in the league. 26 ppg/12.5 rpg/4.4 apg/0.8 spg/0.5 bpg on 59% TS. If Wolves actually stayed healthy for the whole season, then they might've been able to sneak into the playoffs. Don't forget, most of their good players were injured. Pekovic was out for 30 games, Luc Mbah A Moute only played 64 games overall (55 for Timberwolves), Chase Budinger missed 41 games and Kevin Martin missed 14. If everyone stayed healthy, they easily could've won 5-10 extra games.

The only reason why people view Kevin Love as "empty stats" or say things like "This guy isn't a top 10 player" is because of the lack of success his team has. He's never made it into the playoffs and he's been in the league for 6 seasons. I'm sure people would view him as a borderline top 5 player if the Wolves won something like... 50 games last season.

[Milbuck]

How can his defense be better than Joakim Noah's or Marc Gasol's, yet not be DPOTY caliber Defense?
Since the back surgery, he's marginally better than them at his absolute best. But over the course of 82 games it's entirely debatable between them..as of right now he's just not the athletic monster he used to be, hence his shot blocking, rotations, etc. are all back down to earth with other great defensive centers. He's not some defensive god, which he pretty much was with Orlando.

My main Point is, yes, Howard COULD average exactly that if you run your offense through him first, and not have Harden the chucker on his Team...

Howard in Orlando also created all the spacing for his shooters... Had alot of Hockey Assists.
Oh please..they ran the offense through him there because he was DOMINANT. They don't run their offense through him exclusively anymore because he's 1) athletically not the same player, while 2) barely improving his offensive skill set at all, therefore not allowing him to compensate for the physical decline.

They didn't build the entire Rockets team around him for another reason...and here's the part where I give Harden his due....Harden is a dynamic offensive player who can get you a shot whenever you need it. His style of play goes to shit (free throws) when you pressure him hard, but all in all he's a vastly more complete offensive weapon than Howard in just about every way.

Of course Howard COULD give you 20-22ppg as the #1 option...any offensive star can do that. But if he's your #1 option, you're not winning jack shit.

He's just not a reliable post scorer. We can sit here and delude ourselves to suit certain agendas, but that's the reality. He was that guy in Orlando because he was so physically dominant that he could give you an easy 25-30+ points on a good night purely out of athleticism and a few basic moves. With that same athleticism compromised, we're now seeing more and more of his flaws highlighted.

- He's turnover prone. His ability to post up in the first place is fundamentally flawed...he doesn't have a clear idea of where to go, how to establish position, and when he's in his spot he's prone to getting stripped.

- His post skill set is still very limited. I gave him props after the postseason for showing some nice moves..but that's a 6 game sample size. We have yet to see him, since the back injury, show a consistent and reliable fundamental post skill set. Because I sure as hell know he wasn't doing the stuff he did against Portland, against every other team over an 82 game season.

Only ONE of Garnett's Minny Teams was a top 10 defensive Team... ONE.He was there the entire time..it's not a situation where we can quantify the defense before he was there and when he got there. He took shit teams to respectable heights. Could you imagine how ****ing awful those Minny teams would've been defensively without KG?

What we CAN quantify about KG is how he took a 16th ranked Celtics defense in 2007 and was a huge part of transforming it (along with Thibs) into an all time great #1 ranked defense.

If Howard was the same defensive force he was with Orlando in Houston...they sure as hell wouldn't have improved just 3 spots defensively.


"Him having James Harden should have no relevance to his production or defense" *biggumsface

Do you know how many times People blow by Harden? How many times Howard needs to help out? He's been doing this for 2 consecutive years now... In 2013 it was with Kobe. He saved those Teams from being even worse defensively, I saw it every time I watched them Play..
Whoop dee ****ing doo. Teams have shit defenders. That's the point of having an elite defensive anchor and shot blocker. He's dealt with that responsibility his whole career.

And it's not like the whole Rockets squad is abysmal defensively. Beverley is great, Parsons was good, Lin was average or above average on most nights, Asik was a stud, etc.

Are we really gonna sit here and act like ONE teammate's flaws can negatively affect a "top 5" player's game so heavily over the course of an entire season?

His Efficiency is showing no decrease, logically AND from what he did in the Playoffs, I can TELL you that he could average that.
Uh, of course his efficiency wouldn't decrease. He's playing with another dynamic offensive weapon and taking less shots.

This is all just a juiced up version of the per-36 argument for average players..."if he took more shots and they ran more offense through him he'd average HOF numbers"...no, he wouldn't.

If you seriously think Howard, being a shell of his former self athletically and making minimal progress in terms of post skills, can average 26/14 over the course of an entire regular season, I don't know what to tell you. That is delusion of the highest order and I know you know that.

And lettuce be reality here, the Warriors should have win a bit more than 51 wins... I'm not gonna blame Curry (Mark Jackson, ugh), he was perhaps a top 3 offensive player in the regular season, but I needed more in the Playoffs.
Again with the small sample sizes. One series is not enough to kill a player. Seriously was Lebron not a top 10 player after his 2011 finals? What about Kobe after the 2004 finals? On the other end, are you suggesting Westbrook is actually better than Durant?

Curry put up 24/4/9/2 on 61% TS with a net On/Off of +14.0 in the regular season and +37.0 in the playoffs. He is statistically one of the highest impact players in the game..he is weak defensively but he is one of the most dangerous offensive weapons in the game he compensates for it 100% and then some.

The only reason they didn't take out the Clippers is because their defensive anchor in Bogut went down...as for 51 games...I'm positive they would've won more if both Iggy and Bogut didn't miss almost 20 games. They were an elite, 55-60 win caliber team when healthy.

Give me Chris Paul? Yeah... Blake Griffin? Yeah... (LeBron/KD obv)... Then it gets tight for me. I don't have much of a Problem with Westbrook... Now I'd take Howard. Small case for Curry, IMO.Curry is a better player than Dwight. I'm sorry, read above for my points, whatever, but it is what it is. Curry is one of the most underrated players both right now and historically. People are sleeping on just how ****ing good this dude is.

7th at worst... there's no way Aldridge is over Howard. This will be my final Point, 7th is as low as he should go...Lillard and Melo? Just no...
For Lillard, I said into next year..as in a projection of where I think they'll end up. I don't think it's that ludicrous to think Lillard after another year of development can be better than Dwight who doesn't seem to be improving at all.

Aldridge had a better regular season, and raped the Rockets in the postseason. I'm taking the elite offensive weapon and average defender over the above average offensive and great defensive player.

Melo has shown that if you put a good team around him, he'll win you games. What happened when he had a well constructed defensive team around him? He put up 29/7/3/1/1 on 56% TS and led the Knicks to 54 wins..and who was his best offensive teammate..? JR Smith..? :roll:

Where would you put Howard? 8?
Lebron
Durant
Westbrook
CP3
Blake
Curry
Davis
Aldridge
Love
Melo
Dwight

I have him around #11. This upcoming year will be completely different though. Rose is 100% physically, so he could potentially pass all of them but Lebron/KD and probably Westbrook by season's end. Then there's so many guys who can break into top-10 status like Wall, Lillard, Irving, Cousins, Dragic, (if he was healthy) Paul George, etc.


Davis might just be the guy to go with from now on... We'll see.It's not even a question for me. I'm projecting here a bit again, but there's zero doubt in my mind that by the end of this upcoming season Davis will have completely surpassed Dwight as a player. There's already an argument for it now, but I'll hold off on that.


This just makes me realize that the depth of this current Era is actually pretty nice IMO. Not as many SUPERSTARS / ATG Prospects, but some grooming are. Not very top heavy, but depth is pretty solid.This we can agree on. Nostagia-driven negativity is killing the appreciation for this era..but there's a TON of talent right now.

[DaSeba5]

1. LeBron
2. Durant
3. CP3
4. Westbrook
5. Davis or Griffin

[All Net]

lol @ kevin love being top 10

Yeah, he's higher than that.

[Smook A.]

Curry is a better player than Dwight. I'm sorry, read above for my points, whatever, but it is what it is. Curry is one of the most underrated players both right now and historically. People are sleeping on just how ****ing good this dude is.
Most people had Curry at the 6th or 7th best player last season. He's not underrated at all, imo. That's the perfect spot for him. You're probably forgetting the fact that he's a pretty bad defender even when he tries. Great player overall, nonetheless.

[guy]

This just makes me realize that the depth of this current Era is actually pretty nice IMO. Not as many SUPERSTARS / ATG Prospects, but some grooming are. Not very top heavy, but depth is pretty solid.

That's misleading though. Depth in the current era is always going to be perceived better then before because no one really remembers the 15th-30th best players from 10, 20, or 30 years ago. And no one will really remember the same of this era 10, 20, or 30 years from now.

For example, guys like Glenn Robinson, Allan Houston, Sam Cassell, or Richard Hamilton won't really come up much today, but guys like Klay Thompson, Kyle Lowry, Chandler Parsons, and Demar Derozan will even though they aren't really any better and will probably be forgotten when this era is over.