Which current 22 and under duo would you build around?

[Milbuck]

You're given a shitty team with the choice of one 22 and under duo to build around for the future. Who do you take? Some that come to mind..


Timberwolves - Andrew Wiggins and Zach Lavine (or Anthony Bennett)

Bucks - Giannis Antetokounmpo and Jabari Parker

Jazz - Dante Exum and Trey Burke (or Rudy Gobert)

Magic - Victor Oladipo and Elfrid Payton (or Aaron Gordon/Tobias Harris)

Sixers - Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel (or Dario Saric)

Pistons - Andre Drummond and Kentavious Caldwell-Pope lol

Raptors - Jonas Valanciunas and Bruno Caboclo

Kings - Nik Stauskas and Ben McLemore

Hornets - Michael Kidd-Gilchrist and Noah Vonleh (or Cody Zeller)

----

Any other under 22 duos are fair game as well, obviously I didn't list all of the good ones. And as listed in parenthesis, a lot of these teams have other options for these duos, like Saric vs Noel for Philly?

For this forget about Anthony Davis..he and whoever is under 22 on the Pelicans would be the obvious choice..and maybe stars like Kyrie as well

All players in their current conditions..so guys like Embiid who are out right now and are injury risks are exactly the same, this isn't a hypothetical where everyone is guaranteed 100%.

[Nash]

1. Giannis and Jabari
2. Embiid and Nerlens

But, I would easily take Embiid and Noel if there wasn't question marks about their healths.

[Real14]

Giannis and Jabari.

[Inferno]

1. Giannis and Jabari
2. Embiid and Nerlens

But, I would easily take Embiid and Noel if there wasn't question marks about their healths.

Going with this

[Cocaine80s]

Wiggins and Lavine


or Davis and Rivers

[Smook A.]

I like Timberwolves', Bucks', Magic's, and Philly's duos.

Andrew Wiggins has superstar potential. If he can improve some of his weaknesses then who knows how good he can become... Zach Lavine can one day be a 2013-14 Gerald Green type of player. That's the guy who he really reminds me of, mainly because of their out-of-this-world athleticism. Timberwolves will be a very dangerous team on the fastbreak.

Giannis is only 19 and IMO he can probably become something like a slightly better version of Nicolas Batum one day or even better. It's just too early too tell. And like Wiggins, Jabari Parker also has superstar potential. He can definitely become on of the best scorers in the league one day.

For the Magic, I really like Victor Oladipo. He had a good rookie year and if he continues to improve, then I think he can probably become somewhat of a poor man's Dwyane Wade. Elfrid Payton can one day turn into a pretty good point guard. He's really quick and could score well in college.

Philadelphia's duo has the most potential, IMO. You got Joel Embiid, a guy who's compared to one of the best NBA players ever, Hakeem Olajuwon. He's got great defensive potential and his post moves are very smooth. Nerlens Noel was a monster defender coming out of college. Before he injured his ACL, he was averaging 4.4 bpg. If both these guys can live up to their potential and can stay healthy, they can probably become one of the best defensive frontcourts ever, and that's saying a lot.

[Cocaine80s]

is Nerlens a power forward? i thought he was a center

[Legends66NBA7]

I would hire Masai has a vice-general manager and he would build around Val and Bruno for me.

[Milbuck]

Just as expected..the usual picks of Giannis and Jabari, with the occasional retard pick of Lavine sprinkled in there.

Surprised only Smook has mentioned Oladipo and Payton/Gordon/Tobes, I really like that duo.

[Nash]

Going with this
guessing he's a center on offense and PF on defense.

[Milbuck]

Giannis is only 19 and IMO he can probably become something like a slightly better version of Nicolas Batum one day or even better.
If he ends up being a marginally better Batum I'm seriously killing myself. Honestly think he has just as much potential as anyone in this draft except a 100% healthy Embiid who is on his own level..Wiggins and Jabari are on his level potential-wise, and no one else compares..

[Boarder Patrol]

If he ends up being a marginally better Batum I'm seriously killing myself. Honestly think he has just as much potential as anyone in this draft except a 100% healthy Embiid who is on his own level..Wiggins and Jabari are on his level potential-wise, and no one else compares..

Statistically, what do you predict he puts up in his prime? What kind of defense?

I haven't watched him play much, I understand his measurables are insane and he can handle like a guard but there was a real lack raw of statistical production, totally understandable for a kid but I don't know if I'm coming out in full force yet.

[Cocaine80s]

If he ends up being a marginally better Batum I'm seriously killing myself. Honestly think he has just as much potential as anyone in this draft except a 100% healthy Embiid who is on his own level..Wiggins and Jabari are on his level potential-wise, and no one else compares..
i think you are seriously overrating Jabaris potential...

He cant compare with Wiggins and Giannis upside

[TheMilkyBarKid]

Bucks, sixers for potential or wolves if you factor in their overall young talent.

[Legends66NBA7]

If he ends up being a marginally better Batum I'm seriously killing myself. Honestly think he has just as much potential as anyone in this draft except a 100% healthy Embiid who is on his own level..Wiggins and Jabari are on his level potential-wise, and no one else compares..

Funny, I have Bruno pegged to being very similar to Batum. Masai compares him to Rashard Lewis. I've seen comparisons to Andrei Kirilenko too, but I don't know if he'll pan out as a good overall rebounder and shot blocker.

His niche right now is being a 3&D player. Fortunately for him, he'll be on a good team and up and coming team to be built around. Playing and working out with veterans/coaching staff will only help his development.

[Milbuck]

Statistically, what do you predict he puts up in his prime? What kind of defense?

I haven't watched him play much, I understand his measurables are insane and he can handle like a guard but there was a real lack raw of statistical production, totally understandable for a kid but I don't know if I'm coming out in full force yet.
He's 19 years old..he has like 5-7 years before he enters his prime, like 7-9 before he's at his peak..this kid is so far away from his ceiling its impossible to definitively say what his prime stats will be. If I had to guess I would say something like 22-23/7/7/2/1 with great defense.

[Milbuck]

i think you are seriously overrating Jabaris potential...

He cant compare with Wiggins and Giannis upside
How long can we keep writing off Jabari's potential as if he's some unathletic fatass..he was like 20 pounds overweight and completely out of shape in SL and still outplayed Wiggins..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSDl9JF5hvU

That is 19 year old Jabari with baby fat, who hasn't experienced any NBA-level training..if Melo and Paul Pierce can be superstar #1 caliber players on 50+ win teams, I see no reason why Jabari can't.

How many times do we have to gawk over athleticism and then be disappointed before we realize that natural feel for the game and skill-level matters?

Jabari is more skilled in essentially ever facet of the game offensively..he has a natural feel for the game that Wiggins just doesn't. Wiggins is a mediocre ball handler which is arguably the separator between good and great perimeter players..he's a streaky shooter..he's got just two go-to moves, a step back and a spin move..despite his insane athleticism his finishing ability at the rim isn't exceptional..really his only clear-cut advantage is defensively.

[Milbuck]

Funny, I have Bruno pegged to being very similar to Batum. Masai compares him to Rashard Lewis. I've seen comparisons to Andrei Kirilenko too, but I don't know if he'll pan out as a good overall rebounder and shot blocker.

His niche right now is being a 3&D player. Fortunately for him, he'll be on a good team and up and coming team to be built around. Playing and working out with veterans/coaching staff will only help his development.
He'll be one hell of a 3&D player if he can use those physical tools well..what does he look like athletically? I admittedly haven't seen much footage of him..although it doesn't matter much now, he's still a baby in the league.

[Legends66NBA7]

He'll be one hell of a 3&D player if he can use those physical tools well..what does he look like athletically? I admittedly haven't seen much footage of him..although it doesn't matter much now, he's still a baby in the league.

Here's his summer league evaluation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HucuLYUaecg

I agree the video uploader that his defensive ability has impressed me much more than his offensive ability.

[Cocaine80s]

How long can we keep writing off Jabari's potential as if he's some unathletic fatass..he was like 20 pounds overweight and completely out of shape in SL and still outplayed Wiggins..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSDl9JF5hvU

That is 19 year old Jabari with baby fat, who hasn't experienced any NBA-level training..if Melo and Paul Pierce can be superstar #1 caliber players on 50+ win teams, I see no reason why Jabari can't.

How many times do we have to gawk over athleticism and then be disappointed before we realize that natural feel for the game and skill-level matters?

Jabari is more skilled in essentially ever facet of the game offensively..he has a natural feel for the game that Wiggins just doesn't. Wiggins is a mediocre ball handler which is arguably the separator between good and great perimeter players..he's a streaky shooter..he's got just two go-to moves, a step back and a spin move..despite his insane athleticism his finishing ability at the rim isn't exceptional..really his only clear-cut advantage is defensively.
same argument could be made for wiggins. Wiggins is raw as **** but performed better in the summer league than Parker who is considered more NBA ready

[TheMilkyBarKid]

He's 19 years old..he has like 5-7 years before he enters his prime, like 7-9 before he's at his peak..this kid is so far away from his ceiling its impossible to definitively say what his prime stats will be. If I had to guess I would say something like 22-23/7/7/2/1 with great defense.
So pretty much a poor man's Lebron or Pippen type of talent?

[JimmyMcAdocious]

(based on ESPN's rosters, excluding age 0 players:)

Wizards - Beal and Porter
Hornets - Biyombo, Hairston, Zeller, MKG, Vonleh
Magic - Harris, Oladipo, Fournier, Harkless, Marble, Payton, Gordon

Bulls - Snell and McDermott
Cavs - Irving, Waiters, Kirk
Pistons - Mitchell, KCP, Dinwiddie, Drummond
Bucks - Knight, O'Bryant, Antetoounefsknobpo, Inglis, Parker

Raptors - Caboclo, Nogueira, Valanciunas
Nets - Karasev, Teague, Brown
Knicks - Larkin, Labeyrie, Hardaway Jr, Anteonenokoumpofg
Celtics - Young, Smart, Sullinger
76ers - Noel, Grant, Embiid, Wroten, McDaniels, Jackson, MCW

OKC - Jerrett, Christon, Adams, Roberson, McGary, Lamb, Jones, Huestis
Portland - McCollum, Leonard, Gabbe
Wolves - Wiggins, Lavine, Robinson III, Bazz, Bennett
Nuggets - Nurkic, Harris, Miller
Jazz - Exum, Hood, Burke, Kanter, Gobert

Warriors - Barnes and McAdoo
Suns - Ennis, Goodwin, Len, Warren, Brown
Kings - Stauskas, Bhullar, McLemore, Moreland
Lakers - Randle and Clarkson

Spurs - Anderson and Cotton
Rockets - Capela, Johnson, Jones
Grizzlies - Adams and Stokes
Pelicans - Davis, Young, Rivers


If all those guys are under contract...

OKC - 8 players 22 and under
76ers - 7 players 22 and under
Orlando - 7 players 22 and under

[Smook A.]

He's 19 years old..he has like 5-7 years before he enters his prime, like 7-9 before he's at his peak..this kid is so far away from his ceiling its impossible to definitively say what his prime stats will be. If I had to guess I would say something like 22-23/7/7/2/1 with great defense.
I don't know if Giannis will be that good. I'm guessing he'll average something like 17-20 ppg, 7 rpg, and about 5-6 apg with nice defense in his prime.

[Milbuck]

same argument could be made for wiggins. Wiggins is raw as **** but performed better in the summer league than Parker who is considered more NBA ready
Wait what? How can the same argument be made for Wiggins? My whole argument was that Jabari is on another planet skill-wise offensively..you can't make that argument for Wiggins..

And he didn't perform better than Jabari.

Jabari: 15.6 / 8.2 / 1.4 on 41.9% shooting

Wiggins: 15.5 / 3.5 / 0.3 on 40.5% shooting

So Jabari scored more on higher efficiency, rebounded more, had more assists..but Wiggins has him defensively..

[Milbuck]

Here's his summer league evaluation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HucuLYUaecg

I agree the video uploader that his defensive ability has impressed me much more than his offensive ability.
Dude looks sick physically and he's using it well from that footage, looks to be engaged and aggressive where he can be.

Agreed, offensively he just needs a few years to adjust to the league. His shot selection doesn't look poor like the uploader mentioned..I just think his ball handling isn't to the point where he can create something out of nothing, which forces him to take a poor shot. Again he's just a baby in the NBA, he's got a ton of time to work on it.

So pretty much a poor man's Lebron or Pippen type of talent?
Don't think the Lebron comparison works because of the difference in body type, Lebron is an absolute tank and Giannis is KD-like. And because it's Lebron..even a poor man's Lebron is a clear HOFer :oldlol:

Pippen, yeah. I see Giannis's absolute ceiling...so what he could be if he completely maximizes his game, which I don't expect to happen...to be a 6'11" Pippen on offense, with (obviously) lesser defense although still very good to great. He could definitely put up 20/8/6/2/1 in his prime.

[BuffaloBill]

I pick the Hornets.


I can't believe MKG is still under 21 :wtf:

[elementally morale]

Kobe and Shaq.

Oh, wrong thread, nevermind.

[Cocaine80s]

Wait what? How can the same argument be made for Wiggins? My whole argument was that Jabari is on another planet skill-wise offensively..you can't make that argument for Wiggins..

And he didn't perform better than Jabari.

Jabari: 15.6 / 8.2 / 1.4 on 41.9% shooting

Wiggins: 15.5 / 3.5 / 0.3 on 40.5% shooting

So Jabari scored more on higher efficiency, rebounded more, had more assists..but Wiggins has him defensively..
You said Parker is out of shape yet out performed Wiggins in summer league. You can also make the argument that Wiggins is raw as **** and put up similar stats to someone who is considered more NBA ready

[UK2K]

Magic duo, or trio.

[Milbuck]

You said Parker is out of shape yet out performed Wiggins in summer league. You can also make the argument that Wiggins is raw as **** and put up similar stats to someone who is considered more NBA ready
Except that you can easily get in shape in 2-3 months...he's already trimmed around 10 pounds since SL. Wiggins can't magically become a great ball handler and shooter in 2-3 months. Apples and oranges.

Jabari getting in shape is damn near a certainty with frequent physical training and playing through NBA seasons..whereas Wiggins may never refine the skills necessary for him to be a superstar.

[GetBuckets]

You're given a shitty team with the choice of one 22 and under duo to build around for the future. Who do you take? Some that come to mind..


Timberwolves - Andrew Wiggins and Zach Lavine (or Anthony Bennett)

Bucks - Giannis Antetokounmpo and Jabari Parker

Jazz - Dante Exum and Trey Burke (or Rudy Gobert)

Magic - Victor Oladipo and Elfrid Payton (or Aaron Gordon/Tobias Harris)

Sixers - Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel (or Dario Saric)

Pistons - Andre Drummond and Kentavious Caldwell-Pope lol

Raptors - Jonas Valanciunas and Bruno Caboclo

Kings - Nik Stauskas and Ben McLemore

Hornets - Michael Kidd-Gilchrist and Noah Vonleh (or Cody Zeller)

----

Any other under 22 duos are fair game as well, obviously I didn't list all of the good ones. And as listed in parenthesis, a lot of these teams have other options for these duos, like Saric vs Noel for Philly?

For this forget about Anthony Davis..he and whoever is under 22 on the Pelicans would be the obvious choice..and maybe stars like Kyrie as well

All players in their current conditions..so guys like Embiid who are out right now and are injury risks are exactly the same, this isn't a hypothetical where everyone is guaranteed 100%.

I like Oladipo and Gordon/Harris and I like MKG/Noah also :)

[Cocaine80s]

Except that you can easily get in shape in 2-3 months...he's already trimmed around 10 pounds since SL. Wiggins can't magically become a great ball handler and shooter in 2-3 months. Apples and oranges.

Jabari getting in shape is damn near a certainty with frequent physical training and playing through NBA seasons..whereas Wiggins may never refine the skills necessary for him to be a superstar.
Jabari is fat after getting college training as well. It's not like he'll drop all the weight instantly. Plus wiggins will be working with nba level trainers as well so he'll be increasing his skills too

[Milbuck]

Jabari is fat after getting college training as well. It's not like he'll drop all the weight instantly. Plus wiggins will be working with nba level trainers as well so he'll be increasing his skills too
Again, he was 18-19..no one is at their peak physically at that age. If anything, the video I posted earlier shows that he's got the potential to be a fine athlete like a Paul Pierce or a Melo...not a generational athlete like Lebron, but deceptively explosive/quick for his body type.

All I'm saying that I'd sure as hell bet on Jabari slimming down and becoming the version of himself athletically (which is underrated as hell) than Wiggins becoming an elite ball handler and developing a superstar scoring arsenal. People suggesting Wiggins has this superstar, perennial all-star potential the likes of McGrady, Kobe, Durant, etc. are under the impression that he has the same natural feel for the game and skill-base those guys had...which is just not true at all. Physically, he's there. Everything else? Not so much.

Ceiling-wise, I see this as a Melo/Pierce hybrid vs a shorter but more athletic Paul George comparison..

[JohnFreeman]

I actually really like Nik and Ben.

[Milbuck]

I actually really like Nik and Ben.
Stauskas complements DMC's game really well..can shoot the lights out obviously.. and put the ball on the floor and make plays for others, which people don't give him enough credit for..also crazy competitive, should mesh well with DMC there too.

[JohnFreeman]

Stauskas complements DMC's game really well..can shoot the lights out and put the ball on the floor, which people don't give him enough credit for..also crazy competitive, should mesh well with DMC there too.
Shooters are exactly what we need. Now we need a defensive big

[SexSymbol]

Giannis has no basketball skills at all, so he's never gonna be a solid starter in this league.
That leaves us with Embiid and Noel or Wiggins and Lavine

[buddha]

Embiid and Noel easily.

Giannis sucks.

[Milbuck]

Shooters are exactly what we need. Now we need a defensive big
You guys should try to get Derrick Favors..with Rudy Gobert looking like he has serious potential..I don't know how much longer Utah will have patience with the Favors/Kanter duo.

Favors would have zero pressure offensively with Cousins, and he could focus exclusively on rebounding and defense.

[Milbuck]

Giannis has no basketball skills at all, so he's never gonna be a solid starter in this league.
Kill yourself immediately.

[JohnFreeman]

You guys should try to get Derrick Favors..with Rudy Gobert looking like he has serious potential..I don't know how much longer Utah will have patience with the Favors/Kanter duo.

Favors would have zero pressure offensively with Cousins, and he could focus exclusively on rebounding and defense.
That's true. I hope Bledsoe considers SAC :D

[oarabbus]

Probably Embiid/Noel. When you have two big guys with that kinda talent and high ceilings, I will gamble on that every time. If you figure out the golden ticket to let them play together, that could be league changing stuff.

The Brow averaged 4.7blocks/game in college while Noel averaged 4.4bpg.

Davis led the league in blocks last year with 2.8 per game, so if Noel can be as effective of a shotblocker or close to Davis... :eek: it could be a big deal.


Embiid just has too high of a ceiling with his legit size as well. The best case scenario is he could be the offensively talented superstar big with the post moves and nice jumper, and provide solid defense. Then you'd have Noel as your defensive rim protecting, shot blocking defensive superstar who can anchor the whole team, and contribute solidly on offense with alley oops/dunks/layups.

[BrownEye007]

Embiid and Noel if they're gonna stay relatively healthy
Wiggins and Bennett if not

[SexSymbol]

Kill yourself immediately.
I was the only person in the arena to clap for him during the friendly tournament with lithuania, zealand, but damn he hasn't got any good skill on the court from a technical standpoint.

Below average ball handler, below average passer, quite a few times he just went up to the trees trying to dunk it and landed awkwardly, so he can't even land normally.

He has a long way to go to be a solid basketball player, for now he's a deserved scrub with great physical gifts.

Even his heart is questionable, he needed to see Zisis cry to even begin to understand the significance of winning

[andremiller07]

You guys should try to get Derrick Favors..with Rudy Gobert looking like he has serious potential..I don't know how much longer Utah will have patience with the Favors/Kanter duo.

Favors would have zero pressure offensively with Cousins, and he could focus exclusively on rebounding and defense.
No way the Jazz trade Favors cause Kantar is garbage the team was like 2 wins and 20+ losses with him starting, but onto the question at hand I don't think you can look past Noel/Emibid

[poido123]

Embiid and Noel

Jabari and Giannis

[That_Admiral]

Embiid and Nerlens

[IncarceratedBob]

ill take cousins and mclemore

[HurricaneKid]

Below average ball handler, below average passer

Please make a list of the 6'11" players with a better handle that can pass like he can.

It is a short list. And at 19 he is essentially the same age as the current rookie class.