I never realized how many retards didn't believe in evolution

[Nick Young]

The more people I talk to, the more I realize there are a huge amount of retards out there who still don't believe in evolution.


Being raised in California, evolution is a commonly accepted fact. No one argues it because it is scientific fact. We are taught that there are some rednecks in the middle of America who deny evolution, but I just assumed it was a tiny percentage.


I WAS WRONG. Many Christians are RETARDED. The more people I talk to, the more I realize that there are still a lot of retarded people who don't believe in evolution. I think society is going backwards.

[MavsSuperFan]

Religion is a cancer on human advancement
Evolution is not even difficult to understand. Natural selection makes intuitive sense.

[TonyMontana]

It is possible to believe in God and support evolution. So please do not limit your criticism strictly to religious individuals.

"Modern Liberals"(which usually only care about irrelevant social issues and are quite different than actual liberals) only like to praise evolution when it suits them.

If they are arguing against a religious extremist they love evolution. But if they are arguing against someone that is arguing the differences between blacks, whites, asian(in part due to evolution) then they hate it.

[NumberSix]

Religion is a cancer on human advancement
Evolution is not even difficult to understand. Natural selection makes intuitive sense.
Clearly not true.

I understand disliking religion, but let's not ignore reality. If things are true, they're true. It's not ok to ignore reality simply because you believe your personal agenda is the "good one".

Religion is made up nonsense. That being said, that nonsense did play a MAJOR role in acting like a glue that holds a cohesive society together. Without things such as religion and economics to unify people into a society, we would not have advanced as we have. It's just not possible in an "we're all out for ourselves" situation.

There's a reason why for 190,000 years, humans achieved pretty much nothing when we lived as little tribes just out for ourselves and tribe members. For the past 5,000 years though, societies unified around religion, geographic and shared economic interests obviously had the means for further advancements than tribes. Tribes didn't build pyramids. Societies did.

Religion is obviously not the sole reason for unified societies but it's clearly a significant factor. To claim it is "a cancer on human advancement" is to simply ignore reality for the advancement of your own agenda.

[NumberSix]

Yes or no. Are blacks less evolved than whites?
"Less" evolved ? No.
Differently evolved? Yes.

[Warfan]

The worst is when I hear people say stuff like 'Well if it's true, how are there still monkeys? :oldlol:

[Brizzly]

Aren't u that mexican jew? or have I mixed you up with someone else?

[NumberSix]

The worst is when I hear people say stuff like 'Well if it's true, how are there still monkeys? :oldlol:
If there are dogs, why are there still wolves?

[TonyMontana]

Yes or no. Are blacks less evolved than whites?

The fact that you ask this tells me that you are insecure about the subject as a black.

I know arguing with you will lead to nothing, but emotional butthurt.


"Less" evolved ? No.
Differently evolved? Yes.

This.

All humans have technically evolved the same. But they have evolved differently meaning different characteristics and traits have been passed on.

[Brizzly]

Religion is a cancer on human advancement
Evolution is not even difficult to understand. Natural selection makes intuitive sense.

Advancement in the millions of years before Jesus = ?

Since Jesus = Everything.

[sirkeelma]

The worst is when I hear people say stuff like 'Well if it's true, how are there still monkeys? :oldlol:

This..

And why evolution stopped from us?

[Milbuck]

Ah, evolution. The difference between retarded fish frogs and monkeys. Homo Erectus and Homo Sapien. Blacks and whites. Praise Darwin.

[DwnShft2Xcelr8]

The worst is when I hear people say stuff like 'Well if it's true, how are there still monkeys? :oldlol:

Wizardry.
I came to post this same thing.

Shit annoys me to no end. They expect evolution to be like Pok'emon.
"Well, if all the Charmanders evolved into Charizards, there won't be anymore Charmanders. So monkeys shouldn't be around anymore if we evolved from them."
They can't comprehend that that's not how evolution works.

Natural selection makes so much sense that I find it confusing when people refuse to accept it. Keep denying evolution, that's fine, but don't act like natural selection isn't real. How else can someone explain why a grizzly bear and a polar bear can't trade places?
"Uh... It's God's will..?" No.
Natural selection explains it really well.


Edit: Forgot about Charmeleon, but my point is still valid.

[Orlando Magic]

You have no idea what my race is nor should it matter whatsoever in your response. :oldlol:

Chances are you're black though.

[DonDadda59]

You can't prove evolution. God knows what's talking about. I'll trust his word, not yours or the "scientists".

And you're getting his word directly or from some random dude(s) claiming it's 'his' word? You got hoodwinked by some dark age goat herder, bruh.

[NumberSix]

Chances are you're black though.
Chances are he's trolling. :hammerhead:

[DwnShft2Xcelr8]

And your getting his word directly or from some random dude(s) claiming it's 'his' word? You got hoodwinked by some dark age goat herder, bruh.

Damn. Ethered by page 2.


Someone let me know when there's a reasonable theory for God's existence. In the meantime, I'll keep accepting biological proofs as truths.

[Patrick Chewing]

God or a creator and evolution can co-exist.

But if you want to say that human evolution is an irrefutable fact, then you are dead wrong.

[Milbuck]

And your getting his word directly or from some random dude(s) claiming it's 'his' word? You got hoodwinked by some dark age goat herder, bruh.
And how do you explain why there's so many bibles out there?

Didn't think you could.

moe, situations like this are why I wish there was a way to numerically keep track of how many posters take your shit seriously.

[Nick Young]

Yes I dont get why Christians blindly follow the new testament WHEN IT IS HISTORICALLY DOCUMENTED THAT THE BOOK WAS ALTERED AND EDITED 380 YEARS AFTER IT WAS WRITTEN BY ROMANS. Why do christians always ignore the council of Nicaea:facepalm

[DonDadda59]

And how do you explain why there's so many bibles out there?

Didn't think you could.

moe, situations like this are why I wish there was a way to numerically keep track of how many posters take your shit seriously.

Magic bruh, magic.

[NumberSix]

God or a creator and evolution can co-exist.

But if you want to say that human evolution is an irrefutable fact, then you are dead wrong.
Yeah, it really is. If you don't agree, it's only because you don't have a proper understanding of it. Arguing that human evolution isn't a fact is on the same level as arguing that it's not an irrefutable fact that dog breeding is the process that is responsible for creating new dog breeds.

[NumberSix]

Yes I dont get why Christians blindly follow the new testament WHEN IT IS HISTORICALLY DOCUMENTED THAT THE BOOK WAS ALTERED AND EDITED 380 YEARS AFTER IT WAS WRITTEN BY ROMANS. Why do christians always ignore the council of Nicaea:facepalm
True enough.

Can you answer me why Jews blindly follow the Torah when it's historically documented that it had been altered, added to and edited from 950bc-450bc and that the oldest Torah is written in Greek, not Hebrew?


The thing people need to understand is both testaments are not "books". They are collections of altered/edited writings. "Bible" is a Greek word that means something similar to "library" or a collection of books.

[Patrick Chewing]

Yeah, it really is. If you don't agree, it's only because you don't have a proper understanding of it. Arguing that human evolution isn't a fact is on the same level as arguing that it's not an irrefutable fact that dog breeding is the process that is responsible for creating new dog breeds.


I should have been clearer. Sure, people evolve every day. I evolved into a serious coffee drinker just in the past year.

But we did not evolve from an ape-man or primitive hominid.


Edit: Science is in its infancy at the moment. Giving scientists and evolution proponents the benefit of the doubt, we are so far away from answering such questions that I don't understand the level of energy expelled to argue such points.

[Rizko]

Evolution is a fantasy created by our illuminate overlords. It was done to make people less believing in our lord and savior jesus and turn into moral-less heathens devoid of the divine touch.

[DonDadda59]

True enough.

Can you answer me why Jews blindly follow the Torah when it's historically documented that it had been altered, added to and edited from 950bc-450bc and that the oldest Torah is written in Greek, not Hebrew?

:eek:

Lifetime ban incoming.


Evolution is a fantasy created by our illuminate overlords. It was done to make people less believing in our lord and savior jesus and turn into moral-less heathens devoid of the divine touch.

Actually it was the Devil that planted dinosaur bones to befuddle humanity. Earth is only 6,000 years old. How you gonna have bones from giant lizards that are hundreds of millions of years old? :biggums:

[Rizko]

I should have been clearer. Sure, people evolve every day. I evolved into a serious coffee drinker just in the past year.

But we did not evolve from an ape-man or primitive hominid.
Preach brotha. I got ur back. Humans were created in the image of my boy jesus 6000 years ago.

People saying evolution is real are raving satanic lunatic's

[Nanners]

Preach brotha. I got ur back. Humans were created in the image of my boy jesus 6000 years ago.

People saying evolution is real are raving satanic lunatic's
yep. satan created evolution to test our faith, just like he buried dinosaur bones to trick us into thinking the earth is more than 6000 years old.

[Rizko]

Actually it was the Devil that planted dinosaur bones to befuddle humanity. Earth is only 6,000 years old. How you gonna have bones from giant lizards that are hundreds of millions of years old?


satan created evolution to test our faith, just like he buried dinosaur bones to trick us into thinking the earth is more than 6000 years old.
:applause: :applause: :applause:

I'm glad we have some real freethinkers in here. People who aren't manipulated into believing the atheistic agenda of evolution and its quest to discredit god

[YouGotServed]

Jesus living rent free in everyone's head.

[Nanners]

If God isn't real then explain Chick Fil A spicy chicken sandwiches


http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/how-do-you-explain-a-sunset-if-there-is-not-god-2.jpg

[DonDadda59]

Jesus living rent free in everyone's head.

Until Muhammad's boys chop them off :yaohappy:

[Patrick Chewing]

Look at the world around us. The world is on fire right now. Senseless genocide throughout.


But yeah, humans have evolved, bro.

[DonDadda59]

Look at the world around us. The world is on fire right now. Senseless genocide throughout.


But yeah, humans have evolved, bro.

What does that have to do with evolution? Do you even know what evolution is?

And the World has always been 'on fire', we Humans didn't even start it, ask Billy Joel.

[Rizko]

Look at the world around us. The world is on fire right now. Senseless genocide throughout.


But yeah, humans have evolved, bro.
People seem to be deluded into thinking evolution means improvement. Its a change in an expressed genetic trait that better suits the creature to its environment. Its more complicated then that but the long and short of it is that.

Meaning evolution doesn't mean we get smarter. Its just a change.

Technically chimps are more evolved then humans. the hominoid that humans and chimps had as a common ancestor was more closely related to humans then chimps.

[Patrick Chewing]

What does that have to do with evolution? Do you even know what evolution is?



Evolution has a wide array of definitions.


But perhaps I was trying to prove how ridiculous the concept of evolution really is when you look at the bigger scope of things. If you want to believe that we evolved from primitive apes, then so be it. But mentally, looking at the current state of the world, we have actually regressed mentally and still behave in a primitive state of mind.

[ace23]

Evolution has a wide array of definitions.


But perhaps I was trying to prove how ridiculous the concept of evolution really is when you look at the bigger scope of things. If you want to believe that we evolved from primitive apes, then so be it. But mentally, looking at the current state of the world, we have actually regressed mentally and still behave in a primitive state of mind.
Are you trying to make sense?

[DonDadda59]

Evolution has a wide array of definitions.

Not in the context of this thread, no it doesn't.



But perhaps I was trying to prove how ridiculous the concept of evolution really is when you look at the bigger scope of things. If you want to believe that we evolved from primitive apes, then so be it. But mentally, looking at the current state of the world, we have actually regressed mentally and still behave in a primitive state of mind.

We're probably living in the most civil and safe era for Humans ever. But people are always convinced that they're living in the end times, the world's gone mad, yadda yadda yadda. Truth is, the biggest Global political threat right now is a ragtag group of desert militia fighters in the Middle East when less than a century ago a World War was initiated because of the National Socialist Party in Europe. And there's no singular genocide occurring right now (to my knowledge) that's on par with the Holocaust.

So even if you're speaking about philosophical evolution, which makes no sense in this context mind you, your points don't hold any weight.

[Droid101]

Chewing looking ignorant as hell, as usual.

[KingBeasley08]

Word. I encourage people to believe in what they want but if you look away from clear facts, I'm gonna look down on you. Straight up

[Nanners]

Chewing looking ignorant as hell, as usual.

at least he has not said anything racist yet

[Patrick Chewing]

Chewing looking ignorant as hell, as usual.


How so? Cause I don't follow the masses on this board and believe in genetic human evolution? That we came from an ape-like hominid and are the unique people we are today?


If there is definitive proof of human genetic evolution from an ancient primate-like creature, then I will change my tune on it.

[Patrick Chewing]

Word. I encourage people to believe in what they want but if you look away from clear facts, I'm gonna look down on you. Straight up


You encourage people to believe what they want, but when it does not apply to your beliefs, you look down on them. How does that work?

There are no clear facts on human evolution and there are no clear facts supporting the opposite.

[Milbuck]

Patrick Chewing isn't serious, is he? Don't know his history here.

[Patrick Chewing]

Patrick Chewing isn't serious, is he? Don't know his history here.


What is my history?

[Patrick Chewing]

So what do you think happened?


If you've followed my opinions and posts, I am a Creationist believer.


Sure, we've evolved since the days of Adam and Eve for example, but humans have always been humans and nothing prior. That is my belief.

[Rizko]

Do you not believe in evolution at all or is it just macro-evolution. Because micro evolution has already been proven

If there was no such thing as evolution at all you would only need to get one flu shot in your life.

Macro evolution hasn't been observed yet just because of the timeline that it goes thru. It takes too long for it to be observed and happens over the course of generations.

[oarabbus]

If you've followed my opinions and posts, I am a Creationist believer.


Sure, we've evolved since the days of Adam and Eve for example, but humans have always been humans and nothing prior. That is my belief.



Do you believe the earth was created 6000 years ago as well?

[DonDadda59]

If you've followed my opinions and posts, I am a Creationist believer.


Sure, we've evolved since the days of Adam and Eve for example, but humans have always been humans and nothing prior. That is my belief.

How about after? How do you explain away the amount of Neanderthal DNA in the genomes of certain people/groups?

[MavsSuperFan]

Look at the world around us. The world is on fire right now. Senseless genocide throughout.


But yeah, humans have evolved, bro.
evolution is responsible for our aggression. That violent aggressive streak in humans could very well be an evolutionary trait

[Patrick Chewing]

Do you not believe in evolution at all or is it just macro-evolution. Because micro evolution has already been proven

If there was no such thing as evolution at all you would only need to get one flu shot in your life.

Macro evolution hasn't been observed yet just because of the timeline that it goes thru. It takes too long for it to be observed and happens over the course of generations.

Whatever you want to call the opposite of believing that a Creator created us in their likeness. All that Micro Evolution evidence is irrefutable science that I can see and have experienced myself. That's different and perhaps the OP was referring to that. That, I can agree with.

[MavsSuperFan]

Clearly not true.

I understand disliking religion, but let's not ignore reality. If things are true, they're true. It's not ok to ignore reality simply because you believe your personal agenda is the "good one".

Religion is made up nonsense. That being said, that nonsense did play a MAJOR role in acting like a glue that holds a cohesive society together. Without things such as religion and economics to unify people into a society, we would not have advanced as we have. It's just not possible in an "we're all out for ourselves" situation.

There's a reason why for 190,000 years, humans achieved pretty much nothing when we lived as little tribes just out for ourselves and tribe members. For the past 5,000 years though, societies unified around religion, geographic and shared economic interests obviously had the means for further advancements than tribes. Tribes didn't build pyramids. Societies did.

Religion is obviously not the sole reason for unified societies but it's clearly a significant factor. To claim it is "a cancer on human advancement" is to simply ignore reality for the advancement of your own agenda.

It was an overstatement, but I stand by the claim that religion often retards scientific progress.

Scientist have been proven wrong before, and you know what? They admit they were wrong and adjust their theories.

Scientists have provide numerous mathematical calculations to support their theories.

THey have conducted experiments with the large hadron collider at CERN to test some of their theories of the origins of the universe.

Religion does none of that. Religion just tells you something and makes you accept it. Christianity would have us believe that eve was made from adam's rib. A talking snake make eve eat an apple and god tossed them out of the garden of eden. They then populated the earth. You might as well believe in the tooth fairy.

i am no physicist so take what i say with a grain of salt.

The big bang released an unimaginable amount of energy.

Energy can be converted into matter within stars and when stars explode.

Evolution eventually resulted in what we are today.

Evolution is real, we have concrete examples.

Eg. a particular type of bird has a soft beak, one day one bird is born with a harder beak. It has an advantage of digging into the bark of trees to get food. It gets big and strong and mates more. His offspring inherit this trait. Eventually they replace the soft beaked birds.

Basically how evolution works.

[NumberSix]

If you've followed my opinions and posts, I am a Creationist believer.


Sure, we've evolved since the days of Adam and Eve for example, but humans have always been humans and nothing prior. That is my belief.
Unless you're talking about "Mitochondrial Eve" and "Y-chromisomal Adam", what in the world makes you think there ever was an Adam and Eve?

[Patrick Chewing]

How about after? How do you explain away the amount of Neanderthal DNA in the genomes of certain people/groups?

Neanderthal's to my recollection are humans. I don't dispute that we've evolved since the moment of creation.

[Patrick Chewing]

Seriously Patrick Chewing, did you become a born again Christian or something in the last two years?

You seemed like you made a lot more sense when you first joined the forum.


How am I not making sense? I simply believe that we were created and placed here on Earth. That's what all religions believe in. If religious people to you make no sense, then you are in an extreme minority.

I used to not believe in a God and believed that we evolved from apes cause that's what was taught to me in school. But the same evidence that was lacking for the existence of a God to me was lacking in the idea that we evolved from apes or some other type of primitive species.

[Rizko]

Whatever you want to call the opposite of believing that a Creator created us in their likeness. All that Micro Evolution evidence is irrefutable science that I can see and have experienced myself. That's different and perhaps the OP was referring to that. That, I can agree with.
Alright.

So if I'm correct you don't completely disagree with evolution. Just evolution that states humans evolved from earlier hominoids.

What about birds? They say that birds evolved from dinosaurs (idk if its true but its a coomon thing to hear). What's your opinion on that

[NumberSix]

How am I not making sense? I simply believe that we were created and placed here on Earth. That's what all religions believe in. If religious people to you make no sense, then you are in an extreme minority.

I used to not believe in a God and believed that we evolved from apes cause that's what was taught to me in school. But the same evidence that was lacking for the existence of a God to me was lacking in the idea that we evolved from apes or some other type of primitive species.
There is no evidence lacking in our evolution from earlier apes (which we still are apes).

The information is all out there and not difficult to find. If you haven't seen the evidence, it's only because you've purposely avoided it.

[MavsSuperFan]

How am I not making sense? I simply believe that we were created and placed here on Earth. That's what all religions believe in. If religious people to you make no sense, then you are in an extreme minority.

I used to not believe in a God and believed that we evolved from apes cause that's what was taught to me in school. But the same evidence that was lacking for the existence of a God to me was lacking in the idea that we evolved from apes or some other type of primitive species.
There is plenty of evidence we evolved from primitive primates

http://scienceblogs.com/evolvingthoughts/wp-content/blogs.dir/475/files/2012/04/i-0e22e47815e2e7d7b8eeb2c579f9a846-Hominini.png

http://www.age-of-the-sage.org/evolution/human_evolutionary_tree.jpg

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/images/evograms/hominid_evo.jpg

Youtube video of one of my heroes richard dawkins explaining it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wh0F4FBLJRE

evolution occurs because some genetic mutation occurs over time in the genetic code. When this mutation causes a disadvantage, the recipient of the mutation is unlikely to breed and it dies with him.

When it causes an advantage, they will prosper and breed more thus passing on their mutated genetic code and take over, if the advantage is large enough.

Advantages are not always obvious. Eg. sometimes it is advantage to get smaller because food is scarce and you need to get smaller to survive to breed.

Human's primarily evolved to have bipedal walking, which frees up the hands and is energy efficient and obviously our large brains. Our advantages obvious and why we took over the world and became this planet's dominant species.

Although chimps and gorillas also evolved advantages we don't have. they both have much stronger jaws and can chew through things we could never.

Gorillas have muscle and skeletal structure that humans can never compete with. Unarmed the weakest adult gorilla kills the strongest human with ease.

Chimps also are amazingly strong and can rip up a human's face with ease. I have read that for the same muscle mass, a chimp's muscle is 3x stronger than a human's

[Patrick Chewing]

Alright.

So if I'm correct you don't completely disagree with evolution. Just evolution that states humans evolved from earlier hominoids.

What about birds? They say that birds evolved from dinosaurs (idk if its true but its a coomon thing to hear). What's your opinion on that


I'll use the same reasoning for birds as I do for humans. I think birds and their ancestors were also created at some point and have begun to evolve since.

[Patrick Chewing]

So is that a yes to my question? Did you 'find religion' in the last 2-3 years?


Forget a specific "religion". Too many of you guys on this board are hung up on religion.

Did I find the possibility of a creator? Yes.

I am a firm believer in out of body experiences that people have that show that there is something beyond death and that they have had contact with dead relatives and this creator.

[Rizko]

I'll use the same reasoning for birds as I do for humans. I think birds and their ancestors were also created at some point and have begun to evolve since.
Fair enough. Just wanted to see how you felt.

I wont rag on you. I believe in evolution but not believing in macro evolution is understandable all things considered and a mostly harmless belief. Not something that's based in bigotry or whatever so its not worth getting into a major debate or anything

[NumberSix]

I'll use the same reasoning for birds as I do for humans. I think birds and their ancestors were also created at some point and have begun to evolve since.
The known evolution of the human back goes to the time before our distant ancestors first stepped on land. We know the stages of our eyes evolving that took place underwater and then the stages that took place on land.


The information is not hard to find. You've been purposely not wanting to find it.

[Patrick Chewing]

Mavs,

I would argue that there are plenty of humans around the globe that still resemble Australopithecus afarensis from that picture.

[Patrick Chewing]

The known evolution of the human back goes to the time before our distant ancestors first stepped on land. We know the stages of our eyes evolving that took place underwater and then the stages that took place on land.


The information is not hard to find. You've been purposely not wanting to find it.


How do you make the connection that whatever we were while underwater (clearly we are not that now since we cannot breathe under water) turned into what we are today?

[Milbuck]

Mavs,

I would argue that there are plenty of humans around the globe that still resemble Australopithecus afarensis from that picture.
Remember when I asked if you were serious or not?

[JohnFreeman]

How can creationists, believe what they believe? Literally an answer for everyone of their superstitions

[Rizko]

How do you make the connection that whatever we were while underwater (clearly we are not that now since we cannot breathe under water) turned into what we are today?
Its done thru analyzing genetics.

Comparing genomes and shit.

More to it then that but I don't have enough expertise to get into detail so I'm going to oversimplify

[JohnFreeman]

Watch this to show how idiotic they are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AS6rQtiEh8

[Patrick Chewing]

Remember when I asked if you were serious or not?

In skeletal structure. Not the hairy representation that you see on Google Pics.

[ace23]

How can creationists, believe what they believe? Literally an answer for everyone of their superstitions
It's called indoctrination. There are a lot of things that you and I just assume to be true but could not justify.

[Real14]

Its not REAL.

[NumberSix]

How do you make the connection that whatever we were while underwater (clearly we are not that now since we cannot breathe under water) turned into what we are today?
That process would be called, EVOLUTION :hammerhead:

[Patrick Chewing]

I'm surprised how many non-believers we have on here. To each his own and I enjoy the discussion back and forth without the insults, but you would think life imitates art in its full capacity with you guys. You'll follow your favorite player all the way from buying their jersey, to listening to their music, to dressing up like them, but when they start thanking God in front of the camera......what goes through your mind? Do you tell yourselves that for all the talent your favorite player has, he is still inferior to you on an intellectual level since he does not agree with your position on the origins of life?

[Nanners]

I'm surprised how many non-believers we have on here. To each his own and I enjoy the discussion back and forth without the insults, but you would think life imitates art in its full capacity with you guys. You'll follow your favorite player all the way from buying their jersey, to listening to their music, to dressing up like them, but when they start thanking God in front of the camera......what goes through your mind? Do you tell yourselves that for all the talent your favorite player has, he is still inferior to you on an intellectual level since he does not agree with your position on the origins of life?

are you serious right now? :oldlol:

[JohnFreeman]

I'm surprised how many non-believers we have on here. To each his own and I enjoy the discussion back and forth without the insults, but you would think life imitates art in its full capacity with you guys. You'll follow your favorite player all the way from buying their jersey, to listening to their music, to dressing up like them, but when they start thanking God in front of the camera......what goes through your mind? Do you tell yourselves that for all the talent your favorite player has, he is still inferior to you on an intellectual level since he does not agree with your position on the origins of life?
But most Religious people believe in evolution..

[Patrick Chewing]

That process would be called, EVOLUTION :hammerhead:


No man, I want the concrete evidence that we used to be fish with no eyes, developed eyes, turned into monkeys and are now beheading fools in the middle East with no regard for human life.

[KingBeasley08]

I'm surprised how many non-believers we have on here. To each his own and I enjoy the discussion back and forth without the insults, but you would think life imitates art in its full capacity with you guys. You'll follow your favorite player all the way from buying their jersey, to listening to their music, to dressing up like them, but when they start thanking God in front of the camera......what goes through your mind? Do you tell yourselves that for all the talent your favorite player has, he is still inferior to you on an intellectual level since he does agree with your position on the origins of life?
Has nothing to do with God. I have mixed feelings of God and do feel that the creation of the universe is beyond my understand and I accept that the explanation goes beyond what we know about science.


Evolution has as much evidence to it as gravity. If you believe that evolution isn't real, I don't necessarily look down on you, just think you're ignoring evidence that is quite clear.

I do look down on the people that think the Earth is 6000 years ago and dinosaurs were on the Earth the same time as us though. They're fcking stupid

[JohnFreeman]

No man, I want the concrete evidence that we used to be fish with no eyes, developed eyes, turned into monkeys and are now beheading fools in the middle East with no regard for human life.
Haven't they proven this with fossils and DNA samples?

[Patrick Chewing]

But most Religious people believe in evolution..


I believe in evolution too. Read the last couple of pages before coming into this thread and showing how macho you are by posting a video clip insulting people.

[Patrick Chewing]

Haven't they proven this with fossils and DNA samples?


Are you asking me?? :oldlol:

[Milbuck]

I'm surprised how many non-believers we have on here. To each his own and I enjoy the discussion back and forth without the insults, but you would think life imitates art in its full capacity with you guys. You'll follow your favorite player all the way from buying their jersey, to listening to their music, to dressing up like them, but when they start thanking God in front of the camera......what goes through your mind? Do you tell yourselves that for all the talent your favorite player has, he is still inferior to you on an intellectual level since he does not agree with your position on the origins of life?
I am 100% confident I'm more intelligent than Derrick Rose and it's not even close. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy seeing him playing basketball.

It also doesn't mean you're not denser than a neutron star for saying you've seen "plenty of people" who look like a hominid from 3 ****ing million years ago.

[MavsSuperFan]

Has nothing to do with God. I have mixed feelings of God and do feel that the creation of the universe is beyond my understand and I accept that the explanation goes beyond what we know about science.

Im no expert but i think there is actually quite a bit of evidence supporting the big bang theory.

Yes there is a lot of mathematical calculations beyond my comprehension that support the big bang theory.

Scientists at CERN have been able to predict with their calculations what happens when particles collide and split at CERN. Giving support to their theories about the origin of the universe.

IIRC:
most of the basic elements like hydrogen are made in the stars originally. The more complex elements like gold or iron were produced by supernovae

the big bang released energy which converted to hydrogen atoms and over a few hundred million years the particles (which were not evenly distributed by the big bang) gathered together and basically snowballed under their gravitational forces and produced the stars. Heat and pressure from the gravitational forces created stars from the hydrogen atoms.

Stars eventually supernovae thus creating even more elements (all of the remaining elements)

energy is matter.

[NumberSix]

Im no expert but i think there is actually quite a bit of evidence supporting the big bang theory.

Yes there is a lot of mathematical calculations beyond my comprehension that support the big bang theory.
It's actually not complicated at all. It's just the rate of expansion. It's a simply matter of calculating with the rate of expansion how long ago the expansion would have started.

[Megabox!]

The more people I talk to, the more I realize there are a huge amount of retards out there who still don't believe in evolution.


Being raised in California, evolution is a commonly accepted fact. No one argues it because it is scientific fact. We are taught that there are some rednecks in the middle of America who deny evolution, but I just assumed it was a tiny percentage.


I WAS WRONG. Many Christians are RETARDED. The more people I talk to, the more I realize that there are still a lot of retarded people who don't believe in evolution. I think society is going backwards.
So basically they're retarded because they simply just don't believe in same shit as you do? Why is it so hard for f*ck-heads like you to understand that everyone has different beliefs.

[NumberSix]

So basically they're retarded because they simply just don't believe in same shit as you do? Why is it so hard for f*ck-heads like you to understand that everyone has different beliefs.
Exactly. You believe babies come from women's stomachs. I believe they come from baskets carried by storks. Equally good beliefs.

[Nanners]

So basically they're retarded because they simply just don't believe in same shit as you do? Why is it so hard for f*ck-heads like you to understand that everyone has different beliefs.

you believe that the earth revolves around the sun, i believe that the sun revolves around the earth.

[StephHamann]

Chimps also are amazingly strong and can rip up a human's face with ease. I have read that for the same muscle mass, a chimp's muscle is 3x stronger than a human's

White men cant jump

[ThePhantomCreep]

Saying you accept micro and not macro-evolution is like saying you believe in inches but not yards.

It's 2014, people. Put your copy of the bible where it belongs, in the fiction section.

[step_back]

So basically they're retarded because they simply just don't believe in same shit as you do? Why is it so hard for f*ck-heads like you to understand that everyone has different beliefs.

It's perfectly clear he understands people have other beliefs. It's also perfectly clear that what some people believe is completely and totally retarded.

If some people believed in wizards and witchcraft would you think that's perfectly acceptable or stupid, because your logic would suggest you'd think that's acceptable?

Anyone who believes god created two people in the garden of Eden and we now live in the world we have today because a talking snake in a tree convinced Eve to eat the one forbidden fruit in the whole ****ing place has some serious delusional problems.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Evolution is just a theory

[SyRyanYang]

Evolution is just a theory

Yes.

Evolution is just a theory

an extremely compelling one nevertheless, one that (largely) stands undisputed for over a century


Also the micro vs marco thing is completely bullshit.
Lifespan varies but evolution is evolution, saying that you believe one but not the other shows you have 0 understanding of the theory.

Edit: This is why China is on path to the most powerful nation in the world 'cause there'll never be idiotic discussions like this over there

[Bandito]

The more people I talk to, the more I realize there are a huge amount of retards out there who still don't believe in evolution.


Being raised in California, evolution is a commonly accepted fact. No one argues it because it is scientific fact. We are taught that there are some rednecks in the middle of America who deny evolution, but I just assumed it was a tiny percentage.


I WAS WRONG. Many Christians are RETARDED. The more people I talk to, the more I realize that there are still a lot of retarded people who don't believe in evolution. I think society is going backwards.
When did it become a fact? I thought it was a theory...

[Warfan]

Evolution is just a theory


In everyday use, theory means a guess or a hunch, something that maybe needs proof. In science, a theory is not a guess, not a hunch. It's a well-substantiated, well-supported, well-documented explanation for our observations. It ties together all the facts about something, providing an explanation that fits all the observations and can be used to make predictions. In science, theory is the ultimate goal, the explanation. It's as close to proven as anything in science can be.

Some people think that in science, you have a theory, and once it's proven, it becomes a law. That's not how it works. In science, we collect facts, or observations, we use laws to describe them, and a theory to explain them. You don't promote a theory to a law by proving it. A theory never becomes a law.

This bears repeating. A theory never becomes a law. In fact, if there was a hierarchy of science, theories would be higher than laws. There is nothing higher, or better, than a theory.




http://www.notjustatheory.com/

[SyRyanYang]

This bears repeating. A theory never becomes a law. In fact, if there was a hierarchy of science, theories would be higher than laws. There is nothing higher, or better, than a theory. http://www.notjustatheory.com/

I don't agree with this. Theories can be proven wrong, laws can't.

Now if we a hierarchy of theories, theory of evolution would be up there.

[Bandito]

I don't agree with this. Theories can be proven wrong, laws can't.

Now if we a hierarchy of theories, theory of evolution would be up there.
This is the main problem with that theory. Overtime it can proven wrong. How many people though the earth wasn't round until proven wrong? Not saying evolution wrong btw...there is just no concrete absolute proof it is correct either.

[joe]

As far as macro evolution. If you have one species that somehow becomes split up, genetic mutations over time could cause them to become two separate species.

For example, say you have two ponds, 100 feet away from each other. In pond A is a family of fish. A bear comes along and grabs a pregnant female fish, but he accidentally drops it into pond B. The fish escapes and has its babies in the new pond.

Let's say that in pond B, there is a predator fish. This predator wipes out most of the newborn baby fish from pond A, but by chance, some of them happened to be faster than others. Or maybe they liked laying on the bottom of the pond. For whatever reason, they avoided this predator. Their genes live on to the next generation.

If this scenario keeps repeating itself, over hundreds and thousands of years, the fish in pond B will no longer be the same species as their ancestors in pond A. They will no longer be able to mate. Their genetic code will become too different to be compatible.

This is why evolution often requires a ''bottleneck event.'' Humans are not really undergoing much evolution right now, we are extremely fit to survive in the modern world. We have no reason to evolve. But if a poisonous gas suddenly covered the entire planet.. only those resistant to the gas would survive. This is called a bottleneck event. Only a few can fit through the bottleneck, the rest die. It allows massive evolutionary changes all at once.

[NumberSix]

This is the main problem with that theory. Overtime it can proven wrong. How many people though the earth wasn't round until proven wrong? Not saying evolution wrong btw...there is just no concrete absolute proof it is correct either.

There is though. It's a done deal. Evolution is an existing process. It's not debatable. Perhaps you may disagree with some details. Maybe you think the exact details of the evolutionary process in one case or another aren't complete or subject to possibly having errors, but the existence of evolution itself is a real as the sun. It's there. There no doubt about it. It's fact.

[SyRyanYang]

This is the main problem with that theory. Overtime it can proven wrong. How many people though the earth wasn't round until proven wrong? Not saying evolution wrong btw...there is just no concrete absolute proof it is correct either.

Yes it can, so?

There are tons of concrete proof supporting that theory. Just because you don't know/too stupid to understand them, doesn't mean they don't exist.

[Nick Young]

It's perfectly clear he understands people have other beliefs. It's also perfectly clear that what some people believe is completely and totally retarded.

If some people believed in wizards and witchcraft would you think that's perfectly acceptable or stupid, because your logic would suggest you'd think that's acceptable?

Anyone who believes god created two people in the garden of Eden and we now live in the world we have today because a talking snake in a tree convinced Eve to eat the one forbidden fruit in the whole ****ing place has some serious delusional problems.
:applause:

[the wise man]

People that don't believe in evolution will be less and less over time. What pisses me off is that I can't say the fact that women evolved to be subjugated to the will of men without being called a bigot, when there is plenty of scientific evidence.

[Patrick Chewing]

There is though. It's a done deal. Evolution is an existing process. It's not debatable. Perhaps you may disagree with some details. Maybe you think the exact details of the evolutionary process in one case or another aren't complete or subject to possibly having errors, but the existence of evolution itself is a real as the sun. It's there. There no doubt about it. It's fact.


I'm going to take a different approach in rebutting you.

I agree with you, that evolution does exist. I don't think anyone in this thread, including myself has denied that. To just scoff at anyone and call them retarded for having a difference of opinion is childish.

But here are some questions for you.

1. Do you believe in God or a Creator?

2. If you do believe in God or a Creator, do you NOT believe that humans were created in his likeness?

3. Or do you believe in God or a Creator, but he did not create man in his likeness, rather just created the Earth and every living creature that came henceforth is just a matter of happenstance?

[joe]

I'm going to take a different approach in rebutting you.

I agree with you, that evolution does exist. I don't think anyone in this thread, including myself has denied that. To just scoff at anyone and call them retarded for having a difference of opinion is childish.

But here are some questions for you.

1. Do you believe in God or a Creator?

2. If you do believe in God or a Creator, do you NOT believe that humans were created in his likeness?

3. Or do you believe in God or a Creator, but he did not create man in his likeness, rather just created the Earth and every living creature that came henceforth is just a matter of happenstance?

Perhaps God knew that humans would eventually evolve?

[DonDadda59]

Evolution is just a theory

As is gravity.

Honestly though- did some of you sleep through elementary school science? :confusedshrug:

[Patrick Chewing]

Perhaps God knew that humans would eventually evolve?


Perhaps. I'm open minded on this issue. As a believer, I can fathom where humans did evolve into what we are today from microbial life forms, and seeing how far apart we were on the intellect scale, God then communicated with us through the Ten Commandments and such. Everything is a possibility. There is no black and white with the origins of life contrary to what the majority of these posters want you to believe.

[DeuceWallaces]

If you've followed my opinions and posts, I am a Creationist believer.


Sure, we've evolved since the days of Adam and Eve for example, but humans have always been humans and nothing prior. That is my belief.

:lol

[ThePhantomCreep]

Evolution is just a theory

Let me guess, you think "theory" = "hypothesis", yes? Because it doesn't in this case.

The evidence for evolution is overwhelming. There is ZERO evidence that a sky fairy created the universe.

[ThePhantomCreep]

http://hanshowe.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/creationismposter-jesus-hugs-t-rex-dinosaur.jpg?w=468

[Droid101]

There is ZERO evidence that a sky fairy created the universe.
But... if I believe it hard enough it can be true right?

[joe]

Let me guess, you think "theory" = "hypothesis", yes? Because it doesn't in this case.

The evidence for evolution is overwhelming. There is ZERO evidence that a sky fairy created the universe.

I love science/believe in evolution/etc. But when you think about the universe, I have no problem with someone feeling that it had to be the work of a God. Something bigger than humans seems to be at play, to me. How did something come from nothing? Why is there a something at all? It isnt evidence, but some element of reasons says that there are bigger factors at play..

[fpliii]

Great thread.

[shlver]

As far as macro evolution. If you have one species that somehow becomes split up, genetic mutations over time could cause them to become two separate species.

For example, say you have two ponds, 100 feet away from each other. In pond A is a family of fish. A bear comes along and grabs a pregnant female fish, but he accidentally drops it into pond B. The fish escapes and has its babies in the new pond.

Let's say that in pond B, there is a predator fish. This predator wipes out most of the newborn baby fish from pond A, but by chance, some of them happened to be faster than others. Or maybe they liked laying on the bottom of the pond. For whatever reason, they avoided this predator. Their genes live on to the next generation.

If this scenario keeps repeating itself, over hundreds and thousands of years, the fish in pond B will no longer be the same species as their ancestors in pond A. They will no longer be able to mate. Their genetic code will become too different to be compatible.

This is why evolution often requires a ''bottleneck event.'' Humans are not really undergoing much evolution right now, we are extremely fit to survive in the modern world. We have no reason to evolve. But if a poisonous gas suddenly covered the entire planet.. only those resistant to the gas would survive. This is called a bottleneck event. Only a few can fit through the bottleneck, the rest die. It allows massive evolutionary changes all at once.
We are still evolving. The selection may not be natural anymore due to industrialization, but economic pressures are still at play in sexual selection. Wealth is the modern proxy to survive. You need money and economic stability to support a family.

Evolution doesn't "require" a bottleneck event. Random events can happen that can cause a bottleneck, but evolution(that is the change in allele frequency in subsequent generations) is happening constantly as generations reproduce and die.

[~primetime~]

We are still evolving. The selection may not be natural anymore due to industrialization, but economic pressures are still at play in sexual selection. Wealth is the modern proxy to survive. You need money and economic stability to support a family.

Evolution doesn't "require" a bottleneck event. Random events can happen that can cause a bottleneck, but evolution(that is the change in allele frequency in subsequent generations) is happening constantly as generations reproduce and die.
yes humans are evolving to become more intelligent as opposed to the physical alpha-male dominance needed in the past...we are evolving into grey aliens




I do think advancement in medicine is hurting human evolution a great deal though...sickness, illness, mental defects, etc should result in death, and cut off the gene that carries said defect. Instead many genetic defects and flaws are being continued on due to medicine.

The more that medicine advances, the more that the human race will rely on it to survive...

[KingBeasley08]

yes humans are evolving to become more intelligent as opposed to the physical alpha-male dominance needed in the past...we are evolving into grey aliens




I do think advancement in medicine is hurting human evolution a great deal though...sickness, illness, mental defects, etc should result in death, and cut off the gene that carries said defect. Instead many genetic defects and flaws are being continued on due to medicine.

The more that medicine advances, the more that the human race will rely on it to survive...
That is true. Humans are making medicines that are preventing nature from killing many of us. That said, the Earth is due a cataclysmic event within the next 50000 years or so that will probably reduce the number of many humans. It's actually been a while since the last major natural disaster I think

[Trollsmasher]

[quote]A liberal Muslim homosexual ACLU lawyer professor and abortion doctor was teaching a class on Karl Marx, known atheist

[Droid101]

no evolution thread without this copypasta on my watch
It's funny because it's all true!

[shlver]

yes humans are evolving to become more intelligent as opposed to the physical alpha-male dominance needed in the past...we are evolving into grey aliens
No, not necessarily intelligent as anyone who has the economic ability to support a family can do so.




I do think advancement in medicine is hurting human evolution a great deal though...sickness, illness, mental defects, etc should result in death, and cut off the gene that carries said defect. Instead many genetic defects and flaws are being continued on due to medicine.

Like what? Most people who are aware that they are deleterious gene carriers consider the risk of the baby having the disease before making the decision to have a baby. Modern medicine has developed the ability to screen the parents if they are carriers of any genetic diseases and early fetus screening as well. It doesn't really make much sense to say modern medicine is hurting human evolution. In fact, medicine directly increases gene pool diversity by increasing fitness and therefore reproductive success.

The more that medicine advances, the more that the human race will rely on it to survive...
??? The human species have always relied on medicine.

[~primetime~]

No, not necessarily intelligent as anyone who has the economic ability to support a family can do so.
It is the intelligent people that will have an advantage going forward in terms of people able to support their family and produce income...the unintelligent will be at a disadvantage. So evolution will trend that way, towards intelligence rather than physical dominance. We have reached a point in time where an "alpha-male" isn't necessary...OR the "alpha-male" can now be viewed as the male with the biggest wallet rather than the male with the biggest muscles.



Like what? Most people who are aware that they are deleterious gene carriers consider the risk of the baby having the disease before making the decision to have a baby. Modern medicine has developed the ability to screen the parents if they are carriers of any genetic diseases and early fetus screening as well. It doesn't really make much sense to say modern medicine is hurting human evolution. In fact, medicine directly increases gene pool diversity by increasing fitness and therefore reproductive success.

??? The human species have always relied on medicine.
no they don't...:confusedshrug:

and no we haven't...medicine is relatively new to humans.


When animals in nature get sick THEY DIE. So that weak link is killed off, and replaced by a stronger link that doesn't get sick. The result? Animals in nature get along just fine without meds.

When humans get sick we go to the hospital and get fixed, instead of dying. We can then go on to reproduce and create more babies that are also susceptible to illness.

[~primetime~]

@Shlver


There are around 7 billion people in the world. Now how many of the 7 billion would actually survive without modern medicine? Of course, I do not have that number to tell you nor can I think of any sort of algorithm to be able calculate that due to the complexity of the question; but it is something to think about.

Undeniably, the world is keeping the ill alive. In return, the genes that are predisposed to being ill are passed onto the next generation. These 'illness' genes live on. But medicine will advance so that those most of these illnesses won't become a major factor in one's life.

Now let's return back to the theoretical world without medicine. Countless people die. The strong survive. The stronger genes survive. Cycles of generations pass and genes become stronger than the previous generation.

Imagine 50 cycles of generations later in both scenarios: the one with medicine and the one without medicine. Now take away medicine from the world that had medicine. Which group, as a whole, do you think has a stronger immune system and are more fit for the survival?

http://www.ted.com/conversations/4761/has_the_advancement_of_medicin.html

[sweggeh]

Thats stupid. We arent trying to create superhumans. Everyone deserves the right to have the best quality of life possible for them and their family.

[~primetime~]

Thats stupid. We arent trying to create superhumans. Everyone deserves the right to have the best quality of life possible for them and their family.
I didn't say otherwise

I'm simply saying medicine hurts human evolution...I'm not saying we should stop using medicine or that people who get sick easy should not reproduce

[NumberSix]

I didn't say otherwise

I'm simply saying medicine hurts human evolution...I'm not saying we should stop using medicine or that people who get sick easy should not reproduce
Medicine can be viewed as an environmental change.

[ThePhantomCreep]

Humans for the most part live much longer, healthier lives compared to even 100 years ago. The richest wealthiest of citizens 150-200 years lived in conditions that would considered unsanitary today. There's nothing favorable about the good old days. Thank you, modern technology!

It would actually be a huge detriment to let diseases wipe out our physically less fit, since a huge portion of our most productive/visionary/important citizens are nowhere near the the most robust physically. Those traits are nowhere near as essential as they used to be.

BTW animals would use modern medicine in a heartbeat if they could. They live an incredibly harsh existence.

[~primetime~]

Humans for the most part live much longer, healthier lives compared to even 100 years ago. The richest wealthiest of citizens 150-200 years lived in conditions that would considered unsanitary today. There's nothing favorable about the good old days. Thank you, modern technology!

It would actually be a huge detriment to let diseases wipe out our physically less fit, since a huge portion of our most productive/visionary/important citizens are nowhere near the the most robust physically. Those traits are nowhere near as essential as they used to be.

BTW animals would use modern medicine in a heartbeat if they could. They live an incredibly harsh existence.
right, I agree with all of this

Just pointing out that the better we get at keeping 'unfit' people alive, the 'weaker' our DNA will become.



I will say that it is probably irrelevant though...I do expect humans to one day have fully conquered DNA and be able to rid it completely of all 'flaws'. I also expect us to figure out how to stop the aging process completely at some point.

[Inactive]

right, I agree with all of this

Just pointing out that the better we get at keeping 'unfit' people alive, the 'weaker' our DNA will become.



I will say that it is probably irrelevant though...I do expect humans to one day have fully conquered DNA and be able to rid it completely of all 'flaws'. I also expect us to figure out how to stop the aging process completely at some point.If a person is able to reproduce, they are by definition "fit". To say that medical intervention "hurts human evolution", is to make value judgements about an amoral process.

I suppose you could say: If people who are unfit to survive in a premodern environment breed, then some percentage of our population will not be fit to survive in a premodern environment. However, some percentage of the population will still be fit to survive in that premodern environment. If the whole population was forced to return to premodern conditions, those who are well adapted for those conditions will out-breed those who are not, and the majority of the population will eventually become "fit" for that environment.

I agree with the second part.

[~primetime~]

If a person is able to reproduce, they are by definition "fit". To say that medical intervention "hurts human evolution", is to make value judgements about an amoral process.

I suppose you could say: If people who are unfit to survive in a premodern environment breed, then some percentage of our population will not be fit to survive in a premodern environment. However, some percentage of the population will still be fit to survive in that premodern environment. If the whole population was forced to return to premodern conditions, those who are well adapted for those conditions will out-breed those who are not, and the majority of the population will eventually become "fit" for that environment.

I agree with the second part.
yep...that is probably correct

All of those who rely on modern medicine to survive would die off, and those gene traits would be cut off...I assume that would happen quickly too, just 2-3 generations and it would revert right back to what it was before modern medicine.

edit: actually it might not happen that quickly, some traits skip generations, show up later...

[~primetime~]

actually Inactive...now that I think about it I'm not sure that statement is true

If humans went 50+ generations reliant on modern medicine...then ALL of our DNA would suffer. Perhaps NONE of us would be fit to survive premodern conditions.

50 generations is long enough for all involved to be related...

[Inactive]

actually Inactive...now that I think about it I'm not sure that statement is true

If humans went 50+ generations reliant on modern medicine...then ALL of our DNA would suffer. Perhaps NONE of us would be fit to survive premodern conditions.

50 generations is long enough for all involved to be related...I don't think that makes sense, unless there was some selection pressure against the traits that constitute premodern fitness, causing them to disappear. I would say there is likely subtle selection pressure in the opposite direction.

If a person requires outside intervention to stay alive, then there will be some economic cost associated with that. If that cost is payed by the sick individual, then they will have fewer resources to spend on expanding their family. If that cost is spread out across entire societies, then societies with higher rates of sickness will have fewer resources to spend on expansion, national defense, etc., making them less fit than societies with lower rates of sickness, assuming all else is equal.

So, no matter how you slice it, healthy people should breed more than unhealthy people, over time. The only way that wouldn't be true, is if sick people have some advantage over healthy people. For instance, if some mutation arose, which makes one extremely frail, but also extremely intelligent, then maybe that would spread throughout a modern population. That might render them all unfit for a premodern environment, but better fit for a modern environment.

[jstern]

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/how-do-you-explain-a-sunset-if-there-is-not-god-2.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-C150e3_pE5Q/UvbWa2WYDRI/AAAAAAAAE6Y/RAkWCVkygzY/s1600/07.jpg

[Bandito]

As is gravity.

Honestly though- did some of you sleep through elementary school science? :confusedshrug:
Gravity is a Law moron. Newton do you know him and his laws???

[DonDadda59]

Gravity is a Law moron. Newton do you know him and his laws???

Gravitational Theory says suck my d*ck, bitch :banana:

[GimmeThat]

just don't go and sell off ideas about the evolution of disasters all while making a buck at it.

[kNIOKAS]

The more people I talk to, the more I realize there are a huge amount of retards out there who still don't believe in evolution.


Being raised in California, evolution is a commonly accepted fact. No one argues it because it is scientific fact. We are taught that there are some rednecks in the middle of America who deny evolution, but I just assumed it was a tiny percentage.


I WAS WRONG. Many Christians are RETARDED. The more people I talk to, the more I realize that there are still a lot of retarded people who don't believe in evolution. I think society is going backwards.
There's nothing to believe in, stupid. It's a scientifical theory and it has its evidence and limitations.

[Penny37]

To quote Einstein:

The human mind is not capable of grasping the Universe. We are like a little child entering a huge library. The walls are covered to the ceilings with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written these books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. But the child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books

[step_back]

[QUOTE=Penny37]To quote Einstein:

The human mind is not capable of grasping the Universe. We are like a little child entering a huge library. The walls are covered to the ceilings with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written these books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. But the child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books

[~primetime~]

To quote Einstein:

The human mind is not capable of grasping the Universe. We are like a little child entering a huge library. The walls are covered to the ceilings with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written these books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. But the child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books—-a mysterious order which it does not comprehend, but only dimly suspects.


Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble.






Regardless, atheist, creation, whatever, it all takes faith.
Nobody knows for sure how the universe was created but it is very obvious that there is a lot of order in this universe.

You either choose to believe that there is something bigger out there that we don't understand (Creator), or you believe that all of this happened randomly by pure chance which is just as crazy.
:applause:

I am not even close to religious but IMO this universe was CLEARLY designed...and designed for the existence of life and chaos

-"light"
-"time"
-"gravity"

^^^ If any one of those three things don't exist and neither does life. I am to believe that we lucked out and just happened to get those 3 things by chance? And it isn't just those 3 things either, there are lots of things that this universe provides that are essential for our existence, those are just 3 that come to mind.

[sweggeh]

The universe was 100% designed. No doubt about it. Thinking otherwise would be delusional.

It is pretty obvious though that all the religions of today have been made up and spread. They have many holes in them.

There is a creator, or atleast something else we cant comprehend that created all this. Clearly humans have as yet no idea what it could be.

[Patrick Chewing]

You either choose to believe that there is something bigger out there that we don't understand (Creator), or you believe that all of this happened randomly by pure chance which is just as crazy.


:applause:


I wish more of you ISHiots were like this guy. Instead, all you've done is attack and demean.

[~primetime~]

No it's not dumbass. Atheism is belief that there is no god.
A=no/not/against
Theism=belief in existence of a deity or deities.
yep

There are lots of self proclaimed "atheists" that have very different views of what atheism actual is.

There are lots of "atheists" who are much better labeled as "agnostics"...those are the atheists who are more level headed imo. And then there are lots of atheists who only know that the Bible is wrong :facepalm

[tpols]

:applause:

I am not even close to religious but IMO this universe was CLEARLY designed...and designed for the existence of life and chaos

-"light"
-"time"
-"gravity"

^^^ If any one of those three things don't exist and neither does life. I am to believe that we lucked out and just happened to get those 3 things by chance? And it isn't just those 3 things either, there are lots of things that this universe provides that are essential for our existence, those are just 3 that come to mind.

If everything was designed, why is abundant life present in only one place with nothing else around it for absurd distances.. why would a designer want to create for the purpose of chaos? Chaos would seem to be far more the result of random chance than it would of design.

Everyones entitled to their own beliefs.. to me it just seems like all the factors that arent present in 99.99% of the universe aligned properly in one small place which happens to be the perfect distance from an energy source(the sun) giving it the opportunity to grow simple 'life' and expand to advanced life over a very long time of being in that opportunistic position.

[KingBeasley08]

That's a very linear way of looking at Atheism. Religion claims to know all the answers as to why we're here, atheism doesn't. Also you can believe that a higher power created the Universe (God like entity) and still be an atheist. Atheism is just rejecting what our religions like Christianity, Islam, Judaism etc say/claim.

To me that's perfectly reasonable. I also disagree that the Universe is very orderly. In fact I think as a whole it's probably imperfect.
Yep, I'm in the second boat. I don't follow any religion but I lean towards believing in the existence of a God-like being

[~primetime~]

If everything was designed, why is abundant life present in only one place with nothing else around it for absurd distances.. why would a designer want to create for the purpose of chaos? Chaos would seem to be far more the result of random chance than it would of design.

Everyones entitled to their own beliefs.. to me it just seems like all the factors that arent present in 99.99% of the universe aligned properly in one small place which happens to be the perfect distance from an energy source(the sun) giving it the opportunity to grow simply 'life' and expand to advanced life over a very long time of being in that opportunistic position.
IMO this univerese was designed for random chance to happen within it...the guidelines were designed though...(time, light, gravity, etc)

Why there is so much "dead space" in the universe???...who knows, that isn't that important IMO, why does all of the space need to be used?


ALSO...our creator doesn't have to be "PERFECT"

If humans created artificial intelligence inside a virtual world (which will likely happen)...that would make us "GOD" to that intelligence...and we are far from perfect. Our designers are likely US, we designed this place for ourselves, and we are probably very flawed creators.

[tpols]

IMO this univerese was designed for random chance to happen within it...the guidelines were designed though...(time, light, gravity, etc)

Why there is so much "dead space" in the universe???...who knows, that isn't that important IMO, why does all of the space need to be used?


ALSO...our creator doesn't have to be "PERFECT"

If humans created artificial intelligence inside a virtual world (which will likely happen)...that would make us "GOD" to that intelligence...and we are far from perfect. Our designers are likely US, we designed this place for ourselves, and we are probably very flawed creators.

so you think were in the matrix right now?:lol
maybe...

[step_back]

No it's not dumbass. Atheism is belief that there is no god.
A=no/not/against
Theism=belief in existence of a deity or deities.

Atheism is exactly what I just said. Even Dawkins is open to the idea of a higher power just not what our Religions claim it to be.

Go read the God Delusion.

[~primetime~]

so you think were in the matrix right now?:lol
maybe...
In a sense, yes...I obviously don't think there is another REAL 3D universe like this one with our real bodies being used as batteries lol

I think the "spirit world" is a timeless place that has it's own science book that is very different from our own science book.

"but who created the spirit world?"...the answer to that might make sense with their science, we can't grasp it here but maybe we can grasp it there

[Trollsmasher]

Atheism is exactly what I just said. Even Dawkins is open to the idea of a higher power just not what our Religions claim it to be.

Go read the God Delusion.
rejecting religion while still believing in some "Godly" concept is deism

atheism is a complete rejection

[step_back]

rejecting religion while still believing in some "Godly" concept is deism

atheism is a complete rejection

Deism has some differences but is still often referred to as Atheism, especially when debating about the belief in a religious God like Jesus or Allah etc. Like I said in my post it's not just black and white.

[DonDadda59]

The universe was 100% designed. No doubt about it. Thinking otherwise would be delusional.


I am not even close to religious but IMO this universe was CLEARLY designed...and designed for the existence of life and chaos

:facepalm

[KyrieTheFuture]

:applause:

I am not even close to religious but IMO this universe was CLEARLY designed...and designed for the existence of life and chaos

-"light"
-"time"
-"gravity"

^^^ If any one of those three things don't exist and neither does life. I am to believe that we lucked out and just happened to get those 3 things by chance? And it isn't just those 3 things either, there are lots of things that this universe provides that are essential for our existence, those are just 3 that come to mind.
Please stop talking.

[~primetime~]

You specifically have a problem with me saying "light" is needed?

I know there are creatures on Earth that do not require light, but I am still pretty sure that life would not exist here without it.

It's beside the point anyway...point is there are many facets to the laws of this universe that are required for the existence of life.

[Nanners]

It's beside the point anyway...point is there are many facets to the laws of this universe that are required for the existence of life.

i dont really buy this at all, and I think if we ever make it off this planet we will find that there are all sorts of bizzare forms of life throughout the universe that do not require the same conditions that we assume are necessary for life on earth.

keep in mind that when life first came into existence on earth, the earth was a VERY different place. for example, there was no oxygen in the atmosphere when the first life came into existence 3 billion years ago.

really we dont have any evidence that life requires a certain set of conditions that are only available on earth in order to exist, we only assume this because we have not yet encountered life anywhere else.

[~primetime~]

i dont really buy this at all, and I think if we ever make it off this planet we will find that there are all sorts of bizzare forms of life throughout the universe that do not require the same conditions that we assume are necessary for life on earth.

keep in mind that when life first came into existence on earth, the earth was a VERY different place. there was no oxygen in the atmosphere when the first life came into existence 3 billion years ago.

really we dont have any evidence that life requires a certain set of conditions that are only available on earth in order to exist, we only assume this because we have not yet encountered life anywhere else.
I'm not talking about "conditions on Earth" I'm talking about the basic laws of science which are found throughout the entire universe..."time"..."gravity"..."light"..."temperature"...etc

I am not talking about "oxygen", "H20", etc etc

[KyrieTheFuture]

I'm not talking about "conditions on Earth" I'm talking about the basic laws of science which are found throughout the entire universe..."time"..."gravity"..."light"..."temperature"...etc

I am not talking about "oxygen", "H20", etc etc
It really seems like you're saying things just to say them.

[~primetime~]

It really seems like you're saying things just to say them.
funny that's how you are coming off...got anything of substance to add?

[Nanners]

I'm not talking about "conditions on Earth" I'm talking about the basic laws of science which are found throughout the entire universe..."time"..."gravity"..."light"..."temperature"...etc

I am not talking about "oxygen", "H20", etc etc

my point still stands. just because we have not yet observed life that does not live under what we assume to be the basic laws of science, does not mean that its impossible for that kind of life to exist. hell, right here on earth there are plenty of examples of life that live without light, or live in extreme temperatures. you can grow bacteria up on the space station so it doesnt seem that gravity is required for life to exist.

[DonDadda59]

i dont really buy this at all, and I think if we ever make it off this planet we will find that there are all sorts of bizzare forms of life throughout the universe that do not require the same conditions that we assume are necessary for life on earth.

keep in mind that when life first came into existence on earth, the earth was a VERY different place. for example, there was no oxygen in the atmosphere when the first life came into existence 3 billion years ago.

really we dont have any evidence that life requires a certain set of conditions that are only available on earth in order to exist, we only assume this because we have not yet encountered life anywhere else.

There's evidence of possible methane-based life forms on Saturn's moon, Titan.

[KyrieTheFuture]

funny that's how you are coming off...got anything of substance to add?
Not really, just don't pretend to know what the requirements are for life, you basically just picked three things that exist and said these are necessary for life

[~primetime~]

my point still stands. just because we have not yet observed life that does not live by what we assume to be the basic laws of science does not mean that its impossible for that kind of life to exist. hell, right here on earth there are plenty of examples of life that live without light, or live in extreme temperatures.
light may not be needed for life...I might be wrong about that one in particular

Take time or gravity away and it would be a frozen state with nothing held together...

Anyway, you are free to think all of this came together by pure luck/chance...that is fine with me. IMO if this was all chance then we really lucked out in some areas...good thing time and gravity exist

[~primetime~]

Not really, just don't pretend to know what the requirements are for life, you basically just picked three things that exist and said these are necessary for life
I said it was off the top of my head...

my point is still intact...there are multiple facets to the science of this universe that are required in order for life to exist.

[ace23]

You either choose to believe that there is something bigger out there that we don't understand (Creator), or you believe that all of this happened randomly by pure chance which is just as crazy.
Explain how believing that the universe came about by "pure chance" is crazy. :oldlol:

[Nanners]

light may not be needed for life...I might be wrong about that one in particular
you are http://www.pnas.org/content/97/24/12961.full


Take time or gravity away and it would be a frozen state with nothing held together...

lol. as far as we know, time is the same thing as space, so when you say "take time away" you are basically saying "take the known universe away". so yeah, if you wipe out the universe, life would cease to exist, i guess :oldlol:

and gravity does not "hold us together" :facepalm


Anyway, you are free to think all of this came together by pure luck/chance...that is fine with me. IMO if this was all chance then we really lucked out in some areas...good thing time and gravity exist

I dont think its luck/chance, I think its evolution. Life doesnt require the perfect environmental conditions in order to exist, life evolves to perfectly fit the environmental conditions in which it exists. The fact that life as we know it is a perfect fit for the conditions on earth is not evidence that some creator created the conditions on earth, it is just more evidence that life evolves.

[~primetime~]

lol. as far as we know, time is the same thing as space, so when you say "take time away" you are basically saying "take the known universe away". so yeah, if you wipe out the universe life would cease to exist, i guess :oldlol:

and gravity does not "hold us together" :facepalm
so you are saying time is needed then!


I dont think its luck/chance, I think its evolution. Life doesnt require the perfect environmental conditions in order to exist, life evolves to perfectly fit the environmental conditions in which it exists.
obviously that isn't true...there are many parts to this universe where life can not exist.

That is something that atheists point to constantly when trying to disprove the idea of a creator..."why did God make so much of the universe uninhabitable?"

[Nanners]

so you are saying time is needed then!

time and space are needed for ANYTHING to exist, not just life.



obviously that isn't true...there are many parts to this universe where life can not exist.
NO. there are many parts of this universe where some people think life cannot exist. nobody knows this for a fact, we have never visited these parts of the universe to actually confirm that there is no life there.



That is something that atheists point to constantly when trying to disprove the idea of a creator..."why did God make so much of the universe uninhabitable?"
well i never said that. also i am not an atheist.

[~primetime~]

time and space are needed for ANYTHING to exist, not just life.
hey, you are starting to get it now!


NO. there are many parts of this universe where some people think life cannot exist. nobody knows this for a fact, we have never visited these parts of the universe to actually confirm that there is no life there.

well i never said that. also i am not an atheist.
so you think there is possibly life everywhere? even empty space? okay that is fine...

I feel the need to explain again that I am not talking about "conditions on Earth" vs. other places...I am talking about the laws of science that this entire universe was built around.

We will never observe life existing in a state without time or gravity because that place doesn't exist in this universe.

[Nanners]

hey, you are starting to get it now!

the fvck are you talking about? in case it was unclear, i am not convinced by any of your arguments, and i am certainly not "getting" anything you are saying in this thread.


so you think there is possibly life everywhere? even empty space? okay that is fine...

can you prove that there isnt life existing in empty space somewhere? until you can, then yes its possible.

just like how i cannot prove that god does not exist, therefore it is possible that he does.


I feel the need to explain again that I am not talking about "conditions on Earth" vs. other places...I am talking about the laws of science that this entire universe was built around.

We will never observe life existing in a state without time or gravity because that place doesn't exist in this universe.

let me get this straight. you are arguing that the existence of time is evidence of a creator? because the universe couldnt exist without time?

[KyrieTheFuture]

Just because something exists everywhere does not mean its necessary for life

[~primetime~]

let me get this straight. you are arguing that the existence of time is evidence of a creator? because the universe couldnt exist without time?
The existence of time in conjunction with other things are needed for our existence.

What I am saying isn't that difficult to comprehend, you can stop pretending like I'm being crazy in order to act like an ass...

[~primetime~]

Just because something exists everywhere does not mean its necessary for life
true, and I never said otherwise

SOME of the things found everywhere are needed though

[Nanners]

The existence of time in conjunction with other things are needed for our existence.

What I am saying isn't that difficult to comprehend, you can stop pretending like I'm being crazy in order to act like an ass...

what "other things"? in this thread you have claimed that light, temperature and gravity are all requirements for life, and i have provided an example of life living outside of each of those supposed requirements.

[Jailblazers7]

I really dont think ISH is the right place to be discussing the nature and existence of time and space. :lol

[Nanners]

I really dont think ISH is the right place to be discussing the nature and existence of time and space. :lol

true but work is so boring today :oldlol:

[~primetime~]

what "other things"? in this thread you have claimed that light, temperature and gravity are all requirements for life, and i have provided an example of life living outside of each of those supposed requirements.
I used time, light, and gravity as my first examples...light, I may have been wrong about (or maybe not), but you will probably never convince me that life could exist without time or gravity.

and I view "time" as a real tangible thing...separate from "space"...which is another thing..."three-dimensional space", also needed here.

Temperature may or may not be needed idk, it is thought to be needed for the big bang I believe...the existence of "mass"/atoms...there are many facets to this universe that feel very designed imo. If you feel differently that is fine.

[Nanners]

I used time, light, and gravity as my first examples...light, I may have been wrong about (or maybe not), but you will probably never convince me that life could exist without time or gravity.

well here is an example of life existing without gravity (http://www.nasa.gov/centers/ames/news/2013/bacteria-sent-into-space.html)


and I view "time" as a real tangible thing...separate from "space"...which is another thing..."three-dimensional space".

thats nice...i guess science has a different "view" of space and time than you do (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime)


Temperature may or may not be needed idk, it is thought to be needed for the big bang I believe...the existence of "mass"/atoms...

source?

temperature is just a measure of the amount of energy contained within a piece of matter, cant see how it could be "needed for the big bang"

[~primetime~]

that life wouldn't have come to be without gravity...smh

another model for time:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time


According to the Big Bang model, the universe expanded from an extremely dense and hot state and continues to expand today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang


do we really have to do this? lol

[Nanners]

lol, this shit is so pointless


that life wouldn't have come to be without gravity...smh

so you are saying that while life can exist and reproduce in a (near) zero gravity environment just fine, life somehow required gravity in order to originally come into existence.... smh


another model for time:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time

taken from that page


Time has historically been closely related with space, the two together merging into spacetime in Einstein's special relativity and general relativity. According to these theories, the concept of time depends on the spatial reference frame of the observer, and the human perception as well as the measurement by instruments such as clocks are different for observers in relative motion. For example, if a spaceship carrying a clock flies through space at (very nearly) the speed of light, its crew does not notice a change in the speed of time on board their vessel because everything traveling at the same speed slows down at the same rate (including the clock, the crew's thought processes, and the functions of their bodies). However, to a stationary observer watching the spaceship fly by, the spaceship appears flattened in the direction it is traveling and the clock on board the spaceship appears to move very slowly. On the other hand, the crew on board the spaceship also perceives the observer as slowed down and flattened along the spaceship's direction of travel, because both are moving at very nearly the speed of light relative to each other. Because the outside universe appears flattened to the spaceship, the crew perceives themselves as quickly traveling between regions of space that (to the stationary observer) are many light years apart. This is reconciled by the fact that the crew's perception of time is different from the stationary observer's; what seems like seconds to the crew might be hundreds of years to the stationary observer. In either case, however, causality remains unchanged: the past is the set of events that can send light signals to an entity and the future is the set of events to which an entity can send light signals




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang


do we really have to do this? lol
yeah, that doesnt mean that the big bang and the existence of atoms is dependent on temperature, as you claimed.

like i said, temperature is only a measure of the amount of energy contained within matter. if anything, the existence of temperature is dependent on the existence of atoms.

[~primetime~]

so you are saying that while life can exist and reproduce in a (near) zero gravity environment just fine, life somehow required gravity in order to originally come into existence.... smh

yes nanners...you can't just point to astronauts and declare "hey we never needed gravity!!!"

:facepalm

do yourself a favor here and envision this universe without gravity...there would be no planets okay lol

and I'm not going to break down all the theories of time and the big bang with you...we can skip that lol. The laws of this universe feel designed to me and not to you, the end.

[sweggeh]

yes nanners...you can't just point to astronauts and declare "hey we never needed gravity!!!"

:facepalm

do yourself a favor here and envision this universe without gravity...there would be no planets okay lol

and I'm not going to break down all the theories of time and the big bang with you...we can skip that lol. The laws of this universe feel designed to me and not to you, the end.

I agree with you primetime. Coincidences are way too shady.

[Nanners]

http://i.imgur.com/fBCXzkM.jpg

[~primetime~]

Funny sign, good work...but I'm not Christian or any other religion

[DeuceWallaces]

Intelligent design arguments are so hilarious.

"This is so complicated I can't understand it arising under stochastic events, therefore a higher being must have created it (with magic?)."

[sweggeh]

http://i.imgur.com/fBCXzkM.jpg

Stop it. No one knows for sure so stop ridiculing people for their ideas, which are completely valid.

But I am confident that something set all this up. Dont know what it is, maybe we just die and we never find out at all. But coincidences to this magnitude are as close to impossible as, well, possible.

[sweggeh]

Intelligent design arguments are so hilarious.

"This is so complicated I can't understand it arising under stochastic events, therefore a higher being must have created it (with magic?)."

Your probably just angry at god for making you the wrong gender. Shut the **** up and say something useful for once.

[~primetime~]

I'm not claiming that it is too complex for me to understand so it must be God.

[Droid101]

I feel like everyone in this thread needs to watch the new Cosmos. Explains a lot of the stuff that people are ignoring or just flat out getting wrong in this thread.

I highly recommend it. Entertaining and informative.

http://www.amazon.com/Cosmos-A-Spacetime-Odyssey-Blu-ray/dp/B00IWULSTC

[~primetime~]

I have watched the majority of the Cosmos series...it is good

[ace23]

Intelligent design arguments are so hilarious.

"This is so complicated I can't understand it arising under stochastic events, therefore a higher being must have created it (with magic?)."
This

[Richesly]

Human evolution isn't fact. It's still a theory. However, evolution of bacteria and other organisms is a fact.

[NumberSix]

Human evolution isn't fact. It's still a theory. However, evolution of bacteria and other organisms is a fact.
Yeah, it is. Otherwise, humans in Japan would look exactly like humans in Ethiopia. Don't be stupid.

[DeuceWallaces]

Your probably just angry at god for making you the wrong gender. Shut the **** up and say something useful for once.

Welcome to my fan club.

Anyway, it's an excellent criticism.

Only idiots and retards believe in intelligent design because they can't understand or come to terms with reality of life in the universe.

[Richesly]

Yeah, it is. Otherwise, humans in Japan would look exactly like humans in Ethiopia. Don't be stupid.


No, it's a theory. It's even called the theory of human evolution. That is the exact name for it.


If it were a fact, and not a theory, religion would be debunked in every debate by every anti-creationist.

I, myself, am an antagonist, and personally, don't give a shit until something is proven.

[Richesly]

Yeah, it is. Otherwise, humans in Japan would look exactly like humans in Ethiopia. Don't be stupid.

BTW, don't confuse adaptation for evolution.

[Richesly]

I don't even.....


Terrible poster.

[Richesly]

Oh, ouch. I'm so broken up.

You should be broken up. I presented fact to you, and you shut me down with a run-on sentence. Mother ****er, listen here. Do you know who I am? Biology was my favorite class in high school and middle school. I am no dumbass on this subject, but instead an intelligent individual that I am which grateful for the very most. I can be wrong, but I am NEVER a retard. Bitch. I'll end your ISH career.


Guess what? You've been here for 5 tears and still cannot comprehend FACTUAL INFORMATION when delived after 25k posts.

**** off my lawn bitch.

[Nanners]

So many perfect examples in this thread of the exact type of retards nick young was referring to in his OP :oldlol:

[NumberSix]

You should be broken up. I presented fact to you, and you shut me down with a run-on sentence. Mother ****er, listen here. Do you know who I am? Biology was my favorite class in high school and middle school. I am no dumbass on this subject, but instead an intelligent individual that I am which grateful for the very most. I can be wrong, but I am NEVER a retard. Bitch. I'll end your ISH career.


Guess what? You've been here for 5 tears and still cannot comprehend FACTUAL INFORMATION when delived after 25k posts.

**** off my lawn bitch.
I don't think you're a retard. I think you're probably a smart guy who is trolling.

Also, if English is not your first language, I apologize for making fun of you using the wrong word. Sorry about that. I deleted it.

[Nanners]

I am no dumbass on this subject, but instead an intelligent individual that I am which grateful for the very most

yes, you should be which grateful for the very most for your intelligence

[MavsSuperFan]

No, it's a theory. It's even called the theory of human evolution. That is the exact name for it.


If it were a fact, and not a theory, religion would be debunked in every debate by every anti-creationist.

I, myself, am an antagonist, and personally, don't give a shit until something is proven.
Creationism is often debunked:biggums:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6kgvhG3AkI
watch bill nye and ken hamm debate

[DonDadda59]

Intelligent design arguments are so hilarious.

"This is so complicated I can't understand it arising under stochastic events, therefore a higher being must have created it (with magic?)."

It's a pretty weird logical leap to take- I don't get it so, naturally, it must be a Space Wizard using magic. :wtf:

[DeuceWallaces]

You should be broken up. I presented fact to you, and you shut me down with a run-on sentence. Mother ****er, listen here. Do you know who I am? Biology was my favorite class in high school and middle school. I am no dumbass on this subject, but instead an intelligent individual that I am which grateful for the very most. I can be wrong, but I am NEVER a retard. Bitch. I'll end your ISH career.


Guess what? You've been here for 5 tears and still cannot comprehend FACTUAL INFORMATION when delived after 25k posts.

**** off my lawn bitch.

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

Everyone listen up! Biology was this guys favorite class in middle school. :lol

[MavsSuperFan]

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

Everyone listen up! Biology was this guys favorite class in middle school. :lol
I think he is lying though, high school bio teaches evolution.

[NumberSix]

I think he is lying though, high school bio teaches evolution.
I think he's trolling, but if he's not, I do not think everyone should be ganging up on him or insulting him.

[~primetime~]

I personally believe humans are capable of understanding this universe from top to bottom. My own beliefs do not stem from the idea that there are things here in this universe that go beyond our understanding.

And I definitely view evolution as fact.

[ThePhantomCreep]

No, it's a theory. It's even called the theory of human evolution. That is the exact name for it.


If it were a fact, and not a theory, religion would be debunked in every debate by every anti-creationist.

I, myself, am an antagonist, and personally, don't give a shit until something is proven.


A scientific theory is as good as fact. People hear the word "theory" and confuse it with "hypothesis" which it isn't.

A scientific theory is backed by an enormous amount of evidence. It is a comprehensive explanation of an aspect of nature (in this case, evolution). It goes well beyond just an educated guess.

[Penny37]

Explain how believing that the universe came about by "pure chance" is crazy. :oldlol:
You and your friend see a building.

Your friend says, "Someone must have built it."
You say, "No it was just built there by chance. It came from nothing and appeared that way."

The order in the galaxy, the laws of physics, etc. all lead us to where we are at right now. If you think about our universe, it's absolutely amazing. The fact that we're here now spinning thousands of miles an hour around a big ball of gas; I don't know about you but to me that's just crazy. We so often take for granted how amazing this place is.

Light to see, gravity to be grounded, even something as small as our eyeball; the complexity of how it's built is just beyond imagination.


I'm not trying to prove there is a God. That can't be proven and never will. I'm simply saying it's not "retarded" to think that there is something bigger than us out there that created it all.

People say Creationists are the ignorant ones who are stubborn in their beliefs but it seems to me that atheists are the ones who are convinced they have the answers.

[NumberSix]

You and your friend see a building.

Your friend says, "Someone must have built it."
You say, "No it was just built there by chance. It came from nothing and appeared that way."

The order in the galaxy, the laws of physics, etc. all lead us to where we are at right now. If you think about our universe, it's absolutely amazing. The fact that we're here now spinning thousands of miles an hour around a big ball of gas; I don't know about you but to me that's just crazy. We so often take for granted how amazing this place is.

Light to see, gravity to be grounded, even something as small as our eyeball; the complexity of how it's built is just beyond imagination.
You know what is super amazing.....

You know what the North Star is, right? It's 434 lightyears away. When you look at the north star, you're actually looking at the light that left it 434 years ago. When you look at the sky, you're not looking at the present. You're looking at the past.

[NumberSix]

I'm not trying to prove there is a God. That can't be proven and never will. I'm simply saying it's not "retarded" to think that there is something bigger than us out there that created it all.

People say Creationists are the ignorant ones who are stubborn in their beliefs but it seems to me that atheists are the ones who are convinced they have the answers.
There is a difference between thinking there "could" be something that created our universe and and thinking that there is.

I personally think there could be a creator. I don't lean one way or the other though. I have no opinion on if something outside of our universe created it. There's no information one way or the other.

[Droid101]

A scientific theory is as good as fact. People hear the word "theory" and confuse it with "hypothesis" which it isn't.

A scientific theory is backed by an enormous amount of evidence. It is a comprehensive explanation of an aspect of nature (in this case, evolution). It goes well beyond just an educated guess.
I'm sure you already knew (but judging from posts, many people definitely don't), that the Scientific Theory of Gravity actually has LESS supporting evidence than the Scientific Theory of Evolution.

Why don't these Christian fundies argue against teaching that in school?

[Penny37]

There is a difference between thinking there "could" be something that created our universe and and thinking that there is.

I personally think there could be a creator. I don't lean one way or the other though. I have no opinion on if something outside of our universe created it. There's no information one way or the other.
Wouldn't you say it's ignorant both ways then?
It's ignorant to think for sure that there is a creator, but it's also ignorant to say that there definitely isn't?

[NumberSix]

I'm sure you already knew (but judging from posts, many people definitely don't), that the Scientific Theory of Gravity actually has LESS supporting evidence than the Scientific Theory of Evolution.

Why don't these Christian fundies argue against teaching that in school?
Because evolution discredits the Bible's "Adam and Eve" claim. The Bible doesn't make any claim that I'm aware of that is discredited by gravity.

I wonder if the same people dispute the existence of the hyoid bone. It's what makes it possible for humans to talk. Snakes of course don't have this bone, so it's not possible for a snake to talk.

[tpols]

I personally believe humans are capable of understanding this universe from top to bottom. My own beliefs do not stem from the idea that there are things here in this universe that go beyond our understanding.

And I definitely view evolution as fact.

We dont even understand our own bodies at a truly high level dude.. They just found out about DNA only a few decades ago lol.. let alone the advanced mechanisms going on for trillions of light years away in every direction for all of eternity.

we dont know shit really and will almost certainly be looong gone before we crack the code on .0001% of all knowledge.

[NumberSix]

Wouldn't you say it's ignorant both ways then?
It's ignorant to think for sure that there is a creator, but it's also ignorant to say that there definitely isn't?
Of course. Anyone who pretends to know what there is or isn't outside of our universe is a dishonest person. We have no information to form any opinion.

[Micku]

Heh. I'm shocked at some ppl here. There are examples of evolution that we seen and tested of a species turning into another species.

You have the fruit flies experiment (Dobzhansky, 5.3 The Fruit Fly Literature http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html). Fruit flies were separated into different cages and half of the population ate maltose based food and the other half ate starch based foods. After 4 years, they lost their ability to reproduce with each other, thus becoming different species. They had different phenotypes. The different phenotypes include different color, develop four wings, and an different placement of their antenna.

These flies cannot survive in the wild, and only in the lab. But this is an example of genetic mutation occurring through artificial speciation. The results of this experiment further indicate that a geographic isolation is important with evolution.

But this isn't the only example. A new plant species, a type of fireweed, created by a doubling of the chromosome count from the original stock (Mosquin, 1967 http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1469-8137.2004.00998.x/full).

There are also other stuff like immunity to diseases and such. Rats are evolving to become immune to rat poison. Humans becoming more resist to diseases, to virus evolution. Evolution does exist. No doubt. It's silly to even disrupt that evolution does not occur when we see it everyday.

What people have a problem with is the marcoevolution of a species turning into another species. Marcoevolution is considered mircoevolution, but in large periods of time. And some ppl that I meet are just ignorant on evolution. I meet ppl who say that separate humans from apes when they don't realize that we are apes. We fit the classification of an ape in the same way we fit the classification as a mammal.

[Penny37]

Of course. Anyone who pretends to know what there is or isn't outside of our universe is a dishonest person. We have no information to form any opinion.
Cheers!
We've come to an agreement.

[JohnFreeman]

You know what is super amazing.....

You know what the North Star is, right? It's 434 lightyears away. When you look at the north star, you're actually looking at the light that left it 434 years ago. When you look at the sky, you're not looking at the present. You're looking at the past.
Pretty crazy.

[Micku]

We dont even understand our own bodies at a truly high level dude.. They just found out about DNA only a few decades ago lol.. let alone the advanced mechanisms going on for trillions of light years away in every direction for all of eternity.

we dont know shit really and will almost certainly be looong gone before we crack the code on .0001% of all knowledge.

The sad part is that we potentially could be too stupid to comprehend the universe. If we're aren't too stupid then we might die before we can comprehend them like you said.

We think we understand about 5% of the observable universe, matter that we can see. The rest is dark matter and dark energy, and we don't too much about them other than dark matter don't seem to interact with the electromagnetic spectrum, but we can detect it due to gravity. Dark energy may be the energy that is constantly expanding the universe.

[DonDadda59]

You know what is super amazing.....

You know what the North Star is, right? It's 434 lightyears away. When you look at the north star, you're actually looking at the light that left it 434 years ago. When you look at the sky, you're not looking at the present. You're looking at the past.

I remember reading that 1-2% of the static you hear when tuning a radio/analog TV is leftover radiation from the Big Bang.

[~primetime~]

Wouldn't you say it's ignorant both ways then?
It's ignorant to think for sure that there is a creator, but it's also ignorant to say that there definitely isn't?
The existence of anything outside of this universe has to be seen as a "magic wizard" lol

[GimmeThat]

You know what is super amazing.....

You know what the North Star is, right? It's 434 lightyears away. When you look at the north star, you're actually looking at the light that left it 434 years ago. When you look at the sky, you're not looking at the present. You're looking at the past.


talk about an out dated letter.

[jstern]

Heh. I'm shocked at some ppl here. There are examples of evolution that we seen and tested of a species turning into another species.

You have the fruit flies experiment (Dobzhansky, 5.3 The Fruit Fly Literature http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html). Fruit flies were separated into different cages and half of the population ate maltose based food and the other half ate starch based foods. After 4 years, they lost their ability to reproduce with each other, thus becoming different species. They had different phenotypes. The different phenotypes include different color, develop four wings, and an different placement of their antenna.

These flies cannot survive in the wild, and only in the lab. But this is an example of genetic mutation occurring through artificial speciation. The results of this experiment further indicate that a geographic isolation is important with evolution.

But this isn't the only example. A new plant species, a type of fireweed, created by a doubling of the chromosome count from the original stock (Mosquin, 1967 http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1469-8137.2004.00998.x/full).

There are also other stuff like immunity to diseases and such. Rats are evolving to become immune to rat poison. Humans becoming more resist to diseases, to virus evolution. Evolution does exist. No doubt. It's silly to even disrupt that evolution does not occur when we see it everyday.

What people have a problem with is the marcoevolution of a species turning into another species. Marcoevolution is considered mircoevolution, but in large periods of time. And some ppl that I meet are just ignorant on evolution. I meet ppl who say that separate humans from apes when they don't realize that we are apes. We fit the classification of an ape in the same way we fit the classification as a mammal.

Very interesting.

[Micku]

You and your friend see a building.

Your friend says, "Someone must have built it."
You say, "No it was just built there by chance. It came from nothing and appeared that way."

The order in the galaxy, the laws of physics, etc. all lead us to where we are at right now. If you think about our universe, it's absolutely amazing. The fact that we're here now spinning thousands of miles an hour around a big ball of gas; I don't know about you but to me that's just crazy. We so often take for granted how amazing this place is.

Light to see, gravity to be grounded, even something as small as our eyeball; the complexity of how it's built is just beyond imagination.


I'm not trying to prove there is a God. That can't be proven and never will. I'm simply saying it's not "retarded" to think that there is something bigger than us out there that created it all.

People say Creationists are the ignorant ones who are stubborn in their beliefs but it seems to me that atheists are the ones who are convinced they have the answers.

I don't really get that. Atheists themselves do not really need to explain the origins of the universe. That is not their stance. Their stance is that there is no god(s). They don't have to use science with their stance, but helps.

Creationists would say things like "the speed of light is not constant". While this statement is more daring and not stupid because it challenge the E=Mc squared equation. Many people try to tackle it and constantly test it to make sure it's true, which is the beauty of peer review and self checking.

The problem with a lot of Creationism is their explanation of it. Why is the explanation and evidence of why the speed of light isn't constant? It's because God created the light

[shlver]

@Shlver



http://www.ted.com/conversations/4761/has_the_advancement_of_medicin.html
The notion that survivors have "stronger" genes is nonsense. Evolution responds to environmental pressures. For example, heterozygous sickle cell trait carriers are common in areas where malaria is prevalent. Being heterozygous, meaning having one copy of the sickle cell gene, is advantageous for survival as being a single carrier lessens symptoms of malaria infection. Sickle cell trait is not a "stronger" gene, as homozygous carriers have deformed red blood cells under certain physiological conditions.

No the survivors would not have stronger immune systems. A strong immune system is the result of properly functioning genes and a healthy lifestyle, not stronger genes. Every healthy human has the same genes that function in the body's immune response.

The society with modern medicine will be more fit for survival. This should be obvious and does not need explanation.

[shlver]

actually Inactive...now that I think about it I'm not sure that statement is true

If humans went 50+ generations reliant on modern medicine...then ALL of our DNA would suffer. Perhaps NONE of us would be fit to survive premodern conditions.

50 generations is long enough for all involved to be related...
How would our DNA suffer? You're making zero sense because you have no idea what you're talking about.

[~primetime~]

The notion that survivors have "stronger" genes is nonsense. Evolution responds to environmental pressures. For example, heterozygous sickle cell trait carriers are common in areas where malaria is prevalent. Being heterozygous, meaning having one copy of the sickle cell gene, is advantageous for survival as being a single carrier lessens symptoms of malaria infection. Sickle cell trait is not a "stronger" gene, as homozygous carriers have deformed red blood cells under certain physiological conditions.

No the survivors would not have stronger immune systems. A strong immune system is the result of properly functioning genes and a healthy lifestyle, not stronger genes. Every healthy human has the same genes that function in the body's immune response.

The society with modern medicine will be more fit for survival. This should be obvious and does not need explanation.
that is exactly how it works in nature :confusedshrug: ..."survival of the fittest" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survival_of_the_fittest)

not sure why it would be different for humans...

Perhaps your sickle cell example is true but overall, but if we were to save the life of every human that was born with a defect that WOULD have died without meds/technology then those people are going to pass on their "weak" DNA to their kids, those kids will pass it on, so on and so on...

[~primetime~]

How would our DNA suffer? You're making zero sense because you have no idea what you're talking about.
did you even bother to read the link?

this really isn't hard to understand...

here are other convos talking about the same thing I am:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-214452.html

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2018918

[shlver]

that is exactly how it works in nature :confusedshrug: ..."survival of the fittest" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survival_of_the_fittest)

not sure why it would be different for humans...

"Survival of the fittest" is a phrase that originated in evolutionary theory as an alternative (but less accurate) way of describing the mechanism of natural selection.
No it's not what happens in nature. Being fit(being able to mature to reproductive success) does not imply having "stronger" genes. Notice that you still haven't elaborated on what a stronger gene is.

Perhaps your sickle cell example is true but overall, if we were to save the life of every human that was born with a defect and WOULD have died without meds/technology then those people are going to pass on their "weak" DNA to their kids, those kids will pass it on, so on and so on...
The idea of "weak" DNA is idiotic. If the trait is nonlethal, then the organism is fit to reproduce. ALL GENES ARE PASSED ON TO OFFSPRING. The ability to reproduce is the ultimate end goal of survival in biological terms. The ability to reproduce directly increases gene pool diversity, but you are ignorant about this advantage in the context of population genetics.
This will be my last post directed towards you because you don't understand any of my posts, you just parrot nonsense that takes advantage of your ignorance. Everybody's DNA is somewhat diffrerently methylated, mutated, but genetically, healthy humans are all 99.9% similar to each other.

[~primetime~]

these scientists disagree with you

Evolution Says You're Weaker and More Disease Prone Than Your Ancestors (http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2012/05/01/evolution-says-youre-weaker-and-more-disease-prone-than-your-ancestors)

[QUOTE]Humans are growing weaker, more disease prone, and just might be developing some manners, according to a new study that asserts humans are still evolving according to Charles Darwin's natural selection theory.

Modern medicine and a move away from an agrarian society have made the hunter-gatherer traits that were once necessary to survive obsolete, according to Alexandre Courtiol, the German scientist and lead author of the report, which was published Monday in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. Courtiol says that thousands of years ago, people died from genetic illnesses that are no longer death sentences with the help of modern medicine. That in turn means people can pass along their genes to their children before they die.

"What we found was evolution did not stop 10,000 years ago as some scientists thought. In the mid 1800s, the strength of selection was very high

[shlver]

did you even bother to read the link?

this really isn't hard to understand...

here are other convos talking about the same thing I am:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-214452.html

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2018918
I don't need to read anything. EXPLAIN how our DNA would suffer.

[~primetime~]

If the trait is nonlethal, then the organism is fit to reproduce. ALL GENES ARE PASSED ON TO OFFSPRING. The ability to reproduce is the ultimate end goal of survival in biological terms. The ability to reproduce directly increases gene pool diversity, but you are ignorant about this advantage in the context of population genetics.

that is the point...we are saving people that are NOT fit to reproduce through modern medicine.

[~primetime~]

I don't need to read anything. EXPLAIN how our DNA would suffer.
but you DO need to read

HERE IS THE EXPLAINTION (http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2012/05/01/evolution-says-youre-weaker-and-more-disease-prone-than-your-ancestors)

[shlver]

but you DO need to read

HERE IS THE EXPLAINTION (http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2012/05/01/evolution-says-youre-weaker-and-more-disease-prone-than-your-ancestors)
That still doesn't explain how our DNA would suffer.

[~primetime~]

That still doesn't explain how our DNA would suffer.
yes it does...


Courtiol says that thousands of years ago, people died from genetic illnesses that are no longer death sentences with the help of modern medicine. That in turn means people can pass along their genes to their children before they die.

Why is this so hard for you to grasp? Medicine is allowing people who should have died to live and reproduce...their flawed DNA that would have been a death sentence before now gets passed down BECAUSE of medicine.

[shlver]

yes it does...



Why is this so hard for you to grasp? Medicine is allowing people who should have died to live and reproduce...their flawed DNA that would have been a death sentence before now gets passed down BECAUSE of medicine.
Yes and the moral imperative to help these people trumps some idiotic notion that modern medicine is "hurting human evolution."

[~primetime~]

yeah I stated earlier that it doesn't mean we should stop using medicine, or that I believe all those who need meds to live should die...


Really at this point I am just happy that you finally got the gist of this notion, good lord...:oldlol:

[NumberSix]

yeah I stated earlier that it doesn't mean we should stop using medicine, or that I believe all those who need meds to live should die...


Really at this point I am just happy that you finally got the gist of this notion, good lord...:oldlol:
Modern medicine is a new environmental factor.

[~primetime~]

Modern medicine is a new environmental factor.
maybe so

I understand what you are saying but I'm not sure what does and doesn't qualify as environment change here...medicine isn't available to all humans

[shlver]

yeah I stated earlier that it doesn't mean we should stop using medicine, or that I believe all those who need meds to live should die...


Really at this point I am just happy that you finally got the gist of this notion, good lord...:oldlol:
no you really had no point in any of your posts. Your knowledge is so limited that you cannot discuss any of these topics in the correct context.

[~primetime~]

no you really had no point in any of your posts. Your knowledge is so limited that you cannot discuss any of these topics in the correct context.
even if that were true (it isn't I had a very clear and simple point that only you failed to grasp)...I provided plenty of links for you that discussed my point

[NumberSix]

maybe so

I understand what you are saying but I'm not sure what does and doesn't qualify as environment change here...medicine isn't available to all humans
Winter is an environmental factor in Sweden. It isn't in Egypt.

[~primetime~]

Winter is an environmental factor in Sweden. It isn't in Egypt.
good point...those are actual "environments" though, hot and cold weather...I'm not sure medicine would count as an environmental factor, maybe it would though, it's part of our culture now (some of our cultures anyway) so I can see that.

[shlver]

even if that were true (it isn't I had a very clear and simple point that only you failed to grasp)...I provided plenty of links for you that discussed my point
If you can't be coherent with your working knowledge, then you shouldn't be making unsupportable claims like "modern medicine is hurting human evolution." Usually, people provide an elaboration in an argument. Not a "read this and figure out how it supports my position because im too stupid to do it."

[~primetime~]

If you can't be coherent with your working knowledge, then you shouldn't be making unsupportable claims like "modern medicine is hurting human evolution." Usually, people provide an elaboration in an argument. Not a "read this and figure out how it supports my position because im too stupid to do it."
I was very coherent. I'm not a med student or doctor obviously but the point I was making was a very simple one that only you had issues grasping. I shouldn't have needed to provide links for you but I did anyway because YOU were too stupid to grasp my very simple concept. Now that you understand what I was trying to get across you should just stfu.

[shlver]

I was very coherent. I'm not a med student or doctor obviously but the point I was making was a very simple one that only you had issues grasping. I shouldn't have needed to provide links for you but I did anyway because YOU were too stupid to grasp my very simple concept. Now that you understand what I was trying to get across you should just stfu.
No there was no point. You did not support the idea that modern medicine is hurting human evolution.

[NumberSix]

I was very coherent. I'm not a med student or doctor obviously but the point I was making was a very simple one that only you had issues grasping. I shouldn't have needed to provide links for you but I did anyway because YOU were too stupid to grasp my very simple concept. Now that you understand what I was trying to get across you should just stfu.
People are more prone to certain issues do to certain genetics being passed on that otherwise wouldn't have, but the fact that they are being passed on matters less and less as technology improves.

The environment has changed. We now shape our environment around us as opposed to the other way around.

[~primetime~]

No there was no point. You did not support the idea that modern medicine is hurting human evolution.
yes I did, stop being hard-headed...here it is a third time:

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2012/05/01/evolution-says-youre-weaker-and-more-disease-prone-than-your-ancestors

[shlver]

yes I did, stop being hard-headed...here it is a third time:

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2012/05/01/evolution-says-youre-weaker-and-more-disease-prone-than-your-ancestors
All that says is modern medicine has changed the selection pressures. It does not support the idea that modern medicine has hurt human evolution.

[shlver]

People are more prone to certain issues do to certain genetics being passed on that otherwise wouldn't have, but the fact that they are being passed on matters less and less as technology improves.

The environment has changed. We now shape our environment around us as opposed to the other way around.
He doesn't understand evolution is about proliferation, being able to reproduce sufficiently. Which organisms are the most successful on earth? bacteria, plants, insects, etc. These organisms will survive millions of years after we become extinct(unless we go to a different place). Modern medicine has been instrumental in the proliferation of the human species

[~primetime~]

All that says is modern medicine has changed the selection pressures. It does not support the idea that modern medicine has hurt human evolution.
It states that we have evolved into a race that is now more prone to genetic illness than our ancestors...they even describe it as "weaker"...and they blame it on medicine

Humans are growing weaker, more disease prone

[shlver]

It states that we have evolved into a race that is now more prone to genetic illness than our ancestors...they even describe it as "weaker"...and they blame it on medicine
That is what the article says. It doesn't even have a cited quote from the paper in the article. So read the paper and find the evidence that supports that notion? Did you even read the paper?

[~primetime~]

That is what the article says. It doesn't even have a cited quote from the paper in the article. So read the paper and find the evidence that supports that notion? Did you even read the paper?
So you are saying that the article has misinterpreted scientist Alexandre Courtiol's findings?

[shlver]

So you are saying that the article has misinterpreted scientist Alexandre Courtiol's findings?
Nope. I'm saying that there is no scientific evidence in that article so it doesn't support your notion. Nice try though trying to deflect instead of actually reading the paper.

[~primetime~]

Nope. I'm saying that there is no scientific evidence in that article so it doesn't support your notion. Nice try though trying to deflect instead of actually reading the paper.
the article certainly supports my notions...the study that article is based around is too long for me to read atm, at work.

did you read that entire study?