Wilt in his LAST season vs the Best Centers

[LAZERUSS]

Chamberlain, at age 36, and in his LAST season vs the best centers in the league:


Vs. Cowens in 4 H2H's:

Cowens: 31.3 ppg, 19.8 rpg, .454 FG%

Wilt: 14.3 ppg, 14.5 rpg, .588 FG%



vs. Reed in 3 regular season H2H's:

Reed: 12.0 ppg, 10.0 rpg, .471 FG%

Wilt: 6.3 ppg, 23.3 rpg, .529 FG%

vs. Reed in 5 Finals' H2H's:

Reed: 16.4 ppg, 9.2 rpg, .493 FG%

Wilt: 11.6 ppg, 18.6 rpg, .525 FG%


vs. Bellamy in 4 H2H's:

Bellamy: 17.0 ppg, 18.0 rpg ( 2 known games), .400 FG% (2 known game)

Wilt: 9.8 ppg, 20.5 rpg, .593 FG%


vs. Unseld in 4 H2H's:

Unseld: 12.8 ppg, 15.3 rpg, .481 FG%

Wilt: 12.8 ppg, 20.8 rpg, .769 FG%


vs. McAdoo in 4 H2H's:

McAdoo: 16.8 ppg, 8.8 rpg, .450 FG% (3 known games)

Wilt: 20.5 ppg, 21.3 rpg, .850 FG%


vs. Thurmond in 7 regular season H2H's:

Thurmond: 12.3 ppg, 21.6 rpg, .315 FG%

Wilt: 5.1 ppg, 16.6 rpg, .684 FG%

vs. Thurmond in 5 playoff H2H's:

Thurmond: 15.8 ppg, 17.2 rpg, .373 FG%

Wilt: 7.0 ppg, 23.6 rpg, .611 FG%


vs. Lanier in 6 H2H's:

Lanier: 21.2 ppg, 13.4 rpg (5 known games), .374 FG% (5 known games)

Wilt: 19.8 ppg, 16.3 rpg, .764 FG%



vs. Kareem in 6 H2H's:

Kareem: 29.5 ppg, 17.8 rpg, .450 FG%

Wilt: 11.0 ppg, 16.0 rpg, .737 FG%



Some interesting numbers. Cowens certainly outplayed Wilt, albeit, in his one known game, he still only shot .429 from the field.

As ALWAYS, Chamberlain reduced Thurmond to just AWFUL FG%'s (in the two known games in the regular season, Nate shot 3-9 and 2-14...and then in his five playoff H2H's, he only shot .373 overall.) And while Nate outrebounded Wilt in their regular season H2H's, as ALWAYS, Chamberlain just cleaned his clock on the glass in their playoff H2H's.

Willis Reed didn't do much of anything against Wilt in their regular season H2H's, and while he won the FMVP, SOMEBODY had to win it. If anything, Chamberlain outplayed him (again) in their Finals matchup (and in the clinching game, he badly outplayed him.)

Bellamy? I doubt that there has ever been one HOFer who so thoroughly dominated another over the course of so many seasons. Even into his LAST season, Chamberlain continued to own Bellamy. And this likely was one of Bellamy's closest seasons against Wilt.

How about rookie Bob McAdoo? Talk about pure domination...Wilt SLAUGHTERED McAdoo in every conceivable facet of the game. He easily outscored him, badly outrebounded him, and shot an unfathomable .850 from the field (again, all while averaging 20.5 ppg against him.)

Bob Lanier? Wilt more than held his own a PRIME Lanier. In fact, he easily outplayed him overall. And look at their FG%'s. In his three known games, Lanier shot a paltry .400 from the field, while Wilt not only averaged 20 ppg against him, he also shot a staggering .764 from the floor. And BTW, in Lanier's highest scoring game against Wilt, he only shot 13-30 from the field (.433), so his actual total FG% likely was very close to the known .400 mark.

Kareem outscored and outrebounded Wilt in their six regular season H2H's, but as almost always, Chamberlain reduced KAJ's FG% by more than 10%. Kareem only shot over 50% twice in their six H2H's, and had games of 12-31, 10-27, and 11-30 from the field against Wilt. In fact, Chamberlain even outscored Kareem in one H2H, by a 24-21 margin, while outshooting him from the field by a 10-14 to 10-27 margin.

I didn't include Elvin Hayes, because he was now a PF alongside Unseld.

In any case, Chamberlain was not only blocking a KNOWN 5.4 bpg in his LAST season, he was DRAMATICALLY lowering the efficiency of the top centers in the league. All at age 36.


Updated...

[Gotterdammerung]

How do you know Wilt was blocking 5.4 shots per game in 1972-73? :biggums:

[LAZERUSS]

How do you know Wilt was blocking 5.4 shots per game in 1972-73? :biggums:

Actually ThaRegul8r tabulated those numbers, and I believe Psileas pretty much confirmed them, as well. I won't take the time now to find their posts, but if they came up with that number, I'm sure it was correct.

[Nowitness]

Reed: 16/9/3 on 49% FG / 89% FT, in 30 mins

Wilt: 12/19/4 on 52% FG / 37% FT, in 48 mins

why not list that atrocious FT% bro? :oldlol:

[Jameerthefear]

Damn. Wilt got f*cking raped :oldlol:
ayy lmao

[LAZERUSS]

Reed: 16/9/3 on 49% FG / 89% FT, in 30 mins

Wilt: 12/19/4 on 52% FG / 37% FT, in 48 mins

why not list that atrocious FT% bro? :oldlol:

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Reed went 8-9 from the line.

As ALWAYS, Chamberlain OUTSCORED his opposing centers from the FT line (which he did in EVERY one of his SIX Finals.) Furthermore, Chamberlain's IMPACT from the FT line, enabled his teammates to consistently shoot more FTs than their opposing teams. For example, in his 35 Finals games, Wilt's TEAM outscored their opposing team by a 27-6-2 margin from the line...and in many, by HUGE margins.

BTW, Reed and Lucas combined for 24 ppg, 13.8 rpg, and collectively shot .461 in the '73 Finals (in mpg than Wilt), and yet Chamberlain killed them both on the glass, and outshot them from the floor by a huge margin.

[LAZERUSS]

How do you know Wilt was blocking 5.4 shots per game in 1972-73? :biggums:

As a sidenote, one of the truly great statisticians resides here on ISH. Julizaver was the first, to my knowledge, to post everyone of the Wilt-Kareem H2H games.

Now, think about this...Tim Duncan has blocked a "record" 545 shots in his 234 career playoff games.

Julizaver has Wilt with a RECORDED 570 in the known 80 games of his 160 post-season career games. And he is missing data from most all of the first half of Chamberlain's post-season career (and in which he surely blocked a TON more shots.)

Wilt likely blocked close to 1000 shots in his 160 post-season career, and perhaps considerably more.

[LAZERUSS]

KNOWN games in Wilt's LAST season:


Reed: .493 in the Finals.

Cowens: .429 FG%

Bellamy: .350 FG%

Thurmond: .217 in the regular season, and .373 in the post-season.

Kareem: .450

Lanier: .400



A 36 year old Chamberlain against a plethora of HOFers...

[iamgine]

Looking at Wilt in his last seasons is useless. He's pretty much a Tyson Chandler or Ben Wallace who didn't have much scoring burden on offense and only had to defend while his opposing centers had to do both. Wilt vs Kareem in 71-72 is like Tyson Chandler vs Tim Duncan. Won't make much sense as a comparison.

[DatAsh]

Looking at Wilt in his last seasons is useless. He's pretty much a Tyson Chandler or Ben Wallace who didn't have much scoring burden on offense and only had to defend while his opposing centers had to do both. Wilt vs Kareem in 71-72 is like Tyson Chandler vs Tim Duncan. Won't make much sense as a comparison.


Early 70's Wilt was a much better player than Tyson Chandler though. A better comparison would be late 60's Russell.

[LAZERUSS]

Looking at Wilt in his last seasons is useless. He's pretty much a Tyson Chandler or Ben Wallace who didn't have much scoring burden on offense and only had to defend while his opposing centers had to do both. Wilt vs Kareem in 71-72 is like Tyson Chandler vs Tim Duncan. Won't make much sense as a comparison.

Chandler and Wallace couldn't compare with Chamberlain in Wilt's 71-72 season.

Overall, Wilt had 24 games of 20+ points, and 4 of 30+, including TWO 30-30 games.

Furthermore, when he was so inclined, he could string them together, as well...even in the post-season. In his last six playoff games of that 71-72 season, he had four of 20+ (and on a .610 FG%, overall, as well.)

And during the 71-72 regular season, he had a string of four straight games of 29, 24, 23, and 28 points on a combined .695 FG%.

[Nowitness]

This laz poster is such a fraud. I hope he doesnt consider himself some sort of historian because he cant be objective.

yes wilt had a 30 rebound game and average 25 boards...but the reality is he isnt a much better rebounder than shaq or duncan or wallace. he totally ignores pace and the actual rebound %...and this was still in a weak era.

kareem and russell are the only players wilt went up against who would be stars today... and he was a known stat padder.

[LAZERUSS]

This laz poster is such a fraud. I hope he doesnt consider himself some sort of historian because he cant be objective.

yes wilt had a 30 rebound game and average 25 boards...but the reality is he isnt a much better rebounder than shaq or duncan or wallace. he totally ignores pace and the actual rebound %...and this was still in a weak era.

kareem and russell are the only players wilt went up against who would be stars today... and he was a known stat padder.

Fraud?

Only a complete moron would claim that Thurmond, Cowens, Hayes, Unseld, Lanier, Reed, Bellamy, Gilmore, and McAdoo would NOT be stars today.

Hell, an aging Thurmond gave a PEAK Kareem FAR more problems than a 23-24 year old Hakeem did to a 38-39 year Kareem.

[iamgine]

Chandler and Wallace couldn't compare with Chamberlain in Wilt's 71-72 season.

Overall, Wilt had 24 games of 20+ points, and 4 of 30+, including TWO 30-30 games.

Furthermore, when he was so inclined, he could string them together, as well...even in the post-season. In his last six playoff games of that 71-72 season, he had four of 20+ (and on a .610 FG%, overall, as well.)

And during the 71-72 regular season, he had a string of four straight games of 29, 24, 23, and 28 points on a combined .695 FG%.
Whether he could or not is irrelevant. His role was not that. Tyson Chandler also scored 20+ many times. On an even better % than Wilt.

[LAZERUSS]

Whether he could or not is irrelevant. His role was not that. Tyson Chandler also scored 20+ many times. On an even better % than Wilt.

In Chandler's two highest scoring seasons, he had 5 and 6 games of 20+ points, with highs of 22 and 25 points.

His playoff career high games were 14 and 13 points.

[Nowitness]

In Chandler's two highest scoring seasons, he had 5 and 6 games of 20+ points, with highs of 22 and 25 points.

His playoff career high game was 13 points.

bravo sir, youve done it again.

put tyson is the early 70s, let him play 48 minutes a game (because facing short white men isnt draining) and put him on a team that had about 20 more possessions a game, and he'd be putting up wilt numbers.

stop posting raw numbers as if they mean anything. if thats really how you want to do it then wilt has no case for GOAT. 22 PPG playoff averages in the fastest and weakest era ever and consistent playoff failures? :facepalm

[Deuce Bigalow]

Reed: 16/9/3 on 49% FG / 89% FT, in 30 mins

Wilt: 12/19/4 on 52% FG / 37% FT, in 48 mins

why not list that atrocious FT% bro? :oldlol:
Wilt got owned in the NBA Finals

Russell 2-0
Reed 2-0

[iamgine]

In Chandler's two highest scoring seasons, he had 5 and 6 games of 20+ points, with highs of 22 and 25 points.

His playoff career high games were 14 and 13 points.
Which proves he could score 20+.

Also, pace & minutes isn't hard to understand.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt got owned in the NBA Finals

Russell 2-0
Reed 2-0

Shaq couldn't even get to the Finals when he faced Greg Ostertag.

Ostertag 2-0 (and 8-1 overall) against Shaq.

Ainge 2-0 (and 6-0 overall) against Jordan.

Dumars 3-1 against Jordan.

Walton 1-0 against KAJ (and 4-0 overall)

Webster 1-0 against KAJ

Cowens 1-0 against KAJ

Eaton 1-0 against Hakeem.

Thompson 1-0 against Hakeem.

Clemon Johnson 1-0 against Hakeem.

Donaldson 1-0 against Hakeem.

Lister 1-0 against Hakeem.

Etc, etc, etc.

[Psileas]

Wow, is there a single center that managed to break the 50% FG plateau vs Wilt during the course of their total career matchups (preferably someone who didn't play vs Wilt for only 1 season)? Lanier shot a bit above this in 1972, but didn't come close in '73. Kareem was right at the margin in '72 and nowhere near in any other season. Hayes had some high scoring games, due to chucking mid-range shots at unimpressive FG%'s. Cowens is likely off, as well.
Zelmo Beaty was I think the only center who shot above 50% vs Wilt in a single playoff series (Wilt still destroyed him), but I definitely don't believe he did it over his whole career.

[LAZERUSS]

Wow, is there a single center that managed to break the 50% FG plateau vs Wilt during the course of their total career matchups (preferably someone who didn't play vs Wilt for only 1 season)? Lanier shot a bit above this in 1972, but didn't come close in '73. Kareem was right at the margin in '72 and nowhere near in any other season. Hayes had some high scoring games, due to chucking mid-range shots at unimpressive FG%'s. Cowens is likely off, as well.
Zelmo Beaty was I think the only center who shot above 50% vs Wilt in a single playoff series (Wilt still destroyed him), but I definitely don't believe he did it over his whole career.

Well, to be fair, in some of the cases in that '73 season, there is a small sample. But, as in the case of Lanier, the evidence is pretty substantial. Three games, and in his highest scoring game, he shot .433. Then there is Thurmond, who historically shot a horrible FG% against Wilt his entire career. And in the limited known games of Bellamy...again, just way below average shooting (e.g., their '68 playoff series H2H, when Chamberlain outshot Bellamy by a .584 to .421 margin...in a season in which Bellamy shot .541 against the league.)

And of course we have EVERY one of Kareem's games against Chamberlain. A PEAK Kareem in the majority of them. 28 career H2H's, 27 of which came against a 34-36 year old Wilt, who was playing post-surgery. In those 28 games, KAJ only shot above 60% one time, and only above 50% in ten of them...or roughly one-third. Hell, Wilt held Kareem under 40% in seven of their H2H's (and some of those were in the low 30's.)

And I have mentioned it before (actually Julizaver was the first to bring it up)...that Wilt lowered Russell's efficiency considerably more than Russell did Wilt's. Over the course of their 143 career H2H's, in the known games, (at last glance...nbastats.net is now constantly updating this info), Chamberlain outshot Russell by a .497 to .382 margin. When you factor in that Wilt was shooting about .520 thru Russell's last season, and Russell shot .439 in the ten years he was in the league with Wilt...well, Wilt reduced Russell's shooting much more than Russell did his.

It will be interesting to see how the bashers spin these numbers...

[Thorpesaurous]

How did Cowens get .8 rebounds in a single game?

[Psileas]

Well, to be fair, in some of the cases in that '73 season, there is a small sample. But, as in the case of Lanier, the evidence is pretty substantial. Three games, and in his highest scoring game, he shot .433. Then there is Thurmond, who historically shot a horrible FG% against Wilt his entire career. And in the limited known games of Bellamy...again, just way below average shooting (e.g., their '68 playoff series H2H, when Chamberlain outshot Bellamy by a .584 to .421 margin...in a season in which Bellamy shot .541 against the league.)

And of course we have EVERY one of Kareem's games against Chamberlain. A PEAK Kareem in the majority of them. 28 career H2H's, 27 of which came against a 34-36 year old Wilt, who was playing post-surgery. In those 28 games, KAJ only shot above 60% one time, and only above 50% in ten of them...or roughly one-third. Hell, Wilt held Kareem under 40% in seven of their H2H's (and some of those were in the low 30's.)

And I have mentioned it before (actually Julizaver was the first to bring it up)...that Wilt lowered Russell's efficiency considerably more than Russell did Wilt's. Over the course of their 143 career H2H's, in the known games, (at last glance...nbastats.net is now constantly updating this info), Chamberlain outshot Russell by a .497 to .382 margin. When you factor in that Wilt was shooting about .520 thru Russell's last season, and Russell shot .439 in the ten years he was in the league with Wilt...well, Wilt reduced Russell's shooting much more than Russell did his.

It will be interesting to see how the bashers spin these numbers...

They probably won't spin them, they'll ignore them. When the **** hits the fan for them, it's back to "2 rings", "30 vs 22" (which is actually "30 vs 23", but Wilt haters apparently don't even know how to round numbers), etc.
I've mentioned at nauseam that Wilt raised his Playoff scoring in half his series against his specific individual opponents vs what he produced against them in the regular season, meaning that I took competition into account. I've never seen this ever being addressed either, except "30 vs 22". The "adult" version of "lalala, I'm not hearing you!".

[Deuce Bigalow]

Shaq couldn't even get to the Finals when he faced Greg Ostertag.

Ostertag 2-0 (and 8-1 overall) against Shaq.

Ainge 2-0 (and 6-0 overall) against Jordan.

Dumars 3-1 against Jordan.

Walton 1-0 against KAJ (and 4-0 overall)

Webster 1-0 against KAJ

Cowens 1-0 against KAJ

Eaton 1-0 against Hakeem.

Thompson 1-0 against Hakeem.

Clemon Johnson 1-0 against Hakeem.

Donaldson 1-0 against Hakeem.

Lister 1-0 against Hakeem.

Etc, etc, etc.
Keyword: Finals

[riseagainst]

37% FT, wow this guy is terrible. Why is he in the top 5 again?

[aj1987]

How did Cowens get .8 rebounds in a single game?
:oldlol:

[dankok8]

Wow, is there a single center that managed to break the 50% FG plateau vs Wilt during the course of their total career matchups (preferably someone who didn't play vs Wilt for only 1 season)? Lanier shot a bit above this in 1972, but didn't come close in '73. Kareem was right at the margin in '72 and nowhere near in any other season. Hayes had some high scoring games, due to chucking mid-range shots at unimpressive FG%'s. Cowens is likely off, as well.
Zelmo Beaty was I think the only center who shot above 50% vs Wilt in a single playoff series (Wilt still destroyed him), but I definitely don't believe he did it over his whole career.

There probably isn't any center that shot >50% for his career against Wilt but I don't find that so impressive. His defense on Kareem was pretty damn good but vs. those other centers holding them under 50% shooting isn't unexpected even for a competent let alone great defender. Let's look at career FG% averages of the scoring centers Wilt faced.

Bellamy - 51.6%
Lanier - 51.4% (never shot over 49.3% until Wilt left the league)
Reed- 47.6%
Beaty - 46.9%
Haywood - 46.5%
Rule - 46.1%
Cowens - 46.0%
Hayes - 45.2%
Russell - 44.0%
Thurmond - 42.1%

I'm not saying Wilt wasn't a great defensive player but holding the guys above to under 50% shooting is not a remarkable achievement.

[dankok8]

As for the Wilt vs. Russell FG% argument it doesn't really matter how much Wilt reduced Russell compared to vice versa. Russell took on average of 13 shots a game from 1960-1969 while Wilt took an average of 26 shots. Whose FG% matters more to the success of their team? :oldlol:

[dubeta]

All this talk about stats and efficiency but all that did for him was a 2/6 :lol

[LAZERUSS]

There probably isn't any center that shot >50% for his career against Wilt but I don't find that so impressive. His defense on Kareem was pretty damn good but vs. those other centers holding them under 50% shooting isn't unexpected even for a competent let alone great defender. Let's look at career FG% averages of the scoring centers Wilt faced.

Bellamy - 51.6%
Lanier - 51.4% (never shot over 49.3% until Wilt left the league)
Reed- 47.6%
Beaty - 46.9%
Haywood - 46.5%
Rule - 46.1%
Cowens - 46.0%
Hayes - 45.2%
Russell - 44.0%
Thurmond - 42.1%

I'm not saying Wilt wasn't a great defensive player but holding the guys above to under 50% shooting is not a remarkable achievement.

It's not just the "50%" barrier...it's the FACT that Chamberlain ROUTINELY held his opposing HOF centers to WAY under their league average.

In his known H2H's with Russell, there were seasonal H2H's, covering 8+ games in which he held Russell to .301, and even as low as .283 FG%. In the '67 EDF's, Wilt held Russell, who had shot .454 against the league, to a .358 FG%. And you and I both know I could post season, and post-season, after season, and post-season, in which Wilt held Russell WAY below his normal FG%.

Thurmond? NO ONE defended Thurmond like Wilt. Not Russell, nor Kareem. Here again, season-after-season, including their post-season H2H's, in which he reduced nate to a virtually worthless shooter. How about a peak Wilt against a peak Nate in '67? In their regular season H2H's, Chamberlain outshot him by a .633 to .320 margin. And in their Finals...Wilt outshot Thurmond by a .560 to .343 margin. And, as you can see in the OP...regular season H2H's in '72-73 of .217, and a full known playoff series of .373...in a season in which Nate shot .446.

Bellamy? Not many known games, but there were practically no known games in which Bellamy shot well against Chamberlain. And in his 67-68 season, Bellamy shot .541 against the league. Chamberlain not only badly outscored and outrebounded Bellamy in their '68 playoff series, he also outshot him by a .584 to .421 margin. Again... a full 12% BELOW his normal shooting.

The Kareem lovers are real quick to point out KAJ's .71-72 season against Wilt, in which he averaged 40 ppg and on a .500 FG% in their five H2H's (BTW, in KAJ's biggest game against Chamberlain, his Bucks were routed.) HOWEVER, what about virtually EVERY "section" of their career H2H's? In KAJ's greatest FG% season, in 70-71 (he shot .577 against the entire league, in a league that shot .449 overall....which was his largest differential of his entire career)...he shot .438 against Wilt in five H2H's. In his '72 WCF's... .457, in a year in which KAJ shot .574 (and only .414 in the last four games of that seris.) In KAJ's last season (OP) against Wilt, covering six H2H's... a .450 FG%, in a year in which he shot .554 against the league. Oh, and in their one game in which Chamberlain was healthy, and remotely close to his prime, Wilt outscored, outrebounded, outassisted, outblocked, and... outshot KAJ by a .643 to .429 margin.

Again, Chamberlain was ROUTINELY reducing his HOF peers to 10+% BELOW their seasonal FG%'s. All while blocking 7-8+ shots per game, and completely shutting down the lane.

[dankok8]

It's not just the "50%" barrier...it's the FACT that Chamberlain ROUTINELY held his opposing HOF centers to WAY under their league average.

In his known H2H's with Russell, there were seasonal H2H's, covering 8+ games in which he held Russell to .301, and even as low as .283 FG%. In the '67 EDF's, Wilt held Russell, who had shot .454 against the league, to a .358 FG%. And you and I both know I could post season, and post-season, after season, and post-season, in which Wilt held Russell WAY below his normal FG%.

Thurmond? NO ONE defended Thurmond like Wilt. Not Russell, nor Kareem. Here again, season-after-season, including their post-season H2H's, in which he reduced nate to a virtually worthless shooter. How about a peak Wilt against a peak Nate in '67? In their regular season H2H's, Chamberlain outshot him by a .633 to .320 margin. And in their Finals...Wilt outshot Thurmond by a .560 to .343 margin. And, as you can see in the OP...regular season H2H's in '72-73 of .217, and a full known playoff series of .373...in a season in which Nate shot .446.

Bellamy? Not many known games, but there were practically no known games in which Bellamy shot well against Chamberlain. And in his 67-68 season, Bellamy shot .541 against the league. Chamberlain not only badly outscored and outrebounded Bellamy in their '68 playoff series, he also outshot him by a .584 to .421 margin. Again... a full 12% BELOW his normal shooting.

The Kareem lovers are real quick to point out KAJ's .71-72 season against Wilt, in which he averaged 40 ppg and on a .500 FG% in their five H2H's (BTW, in KAJ's biggest game against Chamberlain, his Bucks were routed.) HOWEVER, what about virtually EVERY "section" of their career H2H's? In KAJ's greatest FG% season, in 70-71 (he shot .577 against the entire league, in a league that shot .449 overall....which was his largest differential of his entire career)...he shot .438 against Wilt in five H2H's. In his '72 WCF's... .457, in a year in which KAJ shot .574 (and only .414 in the last four games of that seris.) In KAJ's last season (OP) against Wilt, covering six H2H's... a .450 FG%, in a year in which he shot .554 against the league. Oh, and in their one game in which Chamberlain was healthy, and remotely close to his prime, Wilt outscored, outrebounded, outassisted, outblocked, and... outshot KAJ by a .643 to .429 margin.

Again, Chamberlain was ROUTINELY reducing his HOF peers to 10+% BELOW their seasonal FG%'s. All while blocking 7-8+ shots per game, and completely shutting down the lane.

You're cherry-picking numbers that suit your case.

Thurmond shot terrible against Bill Russell as well... 39.4% for his career in the H2H we have FG%. Even in the 70's when Nate shot much better overall his career FG% against Kareem probably isn't much higher than 40%.

How about Elvin Hayes? He generally UPPED his numbers against Wilt...

1968-1969

Average: 28.4 ppg on 44.7 %FG
vs. Wilt: 31.0 ppg on 45.2 %FG

1970-1971

Average: 28.7 ppg on 42.8 %FG
vs. Wilt: 29.8 ppg on 42.3 %FG (in 4 known games)

1971-1972

Average: 25.2 ppg on 43.4 %FG
vs. Wilt: 31.8 ppg on 45.1 %FG

By the way vs. Kareem who you always bring up as some sort of comparison... Hayes was just terrible shooting the ball. Of their 45 H2H's up to and including the 1980-1981 regular season, we have FG% for 33 games and Hayes shot 40.6% vs. Jabbar.

Of course Cowens in 72-73 (31.3 ppg) and Lanier in 71-72 (32.4 ppg on 51.4%) did pretty damn well against Wilt too. Heck I'd venture a guess and say that maybe neither ever had such a monster season against any other HOF.

[LAZERUSS]

You're cherry-picking numbers that suit your case.

Thurmond shot terrible against Bill Russell as well... 39.4% for his career in the H2H we have FG%. Even in the 70's when Nate shot much better overall his career FG% against Kareem probably isn't much higher than 40%.

How about Elvin Hayes? He generally UPPED his numbers against Wilt...

1968-1969

Average: 28.4 ppg on 44.7 %FG
vs. Wilt: 31.0 ppg on 45.2 %FG

1970-1971

Average: 28.7 ppg on 42.8 %FG
vs. Wilt: 29.8 ppg on 42.3 %FG (in 4 known games)

1971-1972

Average: 25.2 ppg on 43.4 %FG
vs. Wilt: 31.8 ppg on 45.1 %FG

By the way vs. Kareem who you always bring up as some sort of comparison... Hayes was just terrible shooting the ball. Of their 45 H2H's up to and including the 1980-1981 regular season, we have FG% for 33 games and Hayes shot 40.6% vs. Jabbar.

Of course Cowens in 72-73 (31.3 ppg) and Lanier in 71-72 (32.4 ppg on 51.4%) did pretty damn well against Wilt too. Heck I'd venture a guess and say that maybe neither ever had such a monster season against any other HOF.

Cherry-picking?????!!!!!!

You give me a dozen or so games by Elvin Hayes, and in which he shot POORLY overall, and somehow claim that THAT is not cherry-picking?

How about this:

I gave you 143 career H2H's with Russell, which CLEARLY had Chamberlain reducing him to just laughable levels, and WAY below his normal FG%. A staggering .497 to .382 margin, in seasons in which Chamberlain shot .520 in that span, while Russell shot .439 in those ten years.

I gave you EVERY ONE of the 28 Kareem-Wilt H2H's, which CLEARLY illustrated Wilt reducing him to nearly 10% BELOW his career average.


Now, how about Thurmond? You said that Russell held Thurmond to a .394 FG% in their H2H's...how about Wilt against Thurmond in ALL of their KNOWN H2H's? A ghastly .363 FG% (.360 in their regular season, and .370 in their playoff H2H's.) An unfathomable 236-651 from the field. Furthermore, there were a TON of games in which Nate only made 3-6 FGs in a game against Wilt...which would suggest to me that he likely was going 5-20 in many of those. When we finally get all of Nate's FG%'s against Wilt, I wouldn't be surprised if he shot less than .350 against him overall.

And again, in the known games with Bellamy, here is what we have:

In their '68 playoff series... .421 (in a year in which Bellamy shot .541 against the NBA.) In YOUR 71-72 post....424, in a season in which Bellamy shot a career high .545. And in the OP... .350.

But, yes, I am "cherry-picking"

:facepalm

These "bashers" are truly hilarious....

[aj1987]

Seriously though. How does Cowens have 31.3 and 19.8 from ONE known game?

[LAZERUSS]

Seriously though. How does Cowens have 31.3 and 19.8 from ONE known game?

Four H2H's, with one known game involving Cowens' FG%.

Here is another example:


vs. Lanier in 6 H2H's:

Lanier: 21.2 ppg, 14.0 rpg (4 known games), .400 FG% (3 known games)

Wilt: 19.8 ppg, 16.3 rpg, .764 FG%

[Psileas]

There probably isn't any center that shot >50% for his career against Wilt but I don't find that so impressive. His defense on Kareem was pretty damn good but vs. those other centers holding them under 50% shooting isn't unexpected even for a competent let alone great defender. Let's look at career FG% averages of the scoring centers Wilt faced.

Bellamy - 51.6%
Lanier - 51.4% (never shot over 49.3% until Wilt left the league)
Reed- 47.6%
Beaty - 46.9%
Haywood - 46.5%
Rule - 46.1%
Cowens - 46.0%
Hayes - 45.2%
Russell - 44.0%
Thurmond - 42.1%

I'm not saying Wilt wasn't a great defensive player but holding the guys above to under 50% shooting is not a remarkable achievement.

Yes, but these first few are the ones that I had primarily in mind (plus, to add to this, I doubt there are many single seasons any center shot above 50% vs Wilt - e.g, Reed shot 52% in 1969, but 46.5% vs Wilt, taken from 4 available games). Holding Kareem to below 50% is pretty remarkable. The fact that Kareem fans boast a lot about him averaging 40 ppg on 50% FG against Wilt in 1972 is a good indication of this as well, since 50% was still not a particularly high figure for someone who scored 40, especially if it's Kareem. It's not, e.g, anywhere near his domination on Cowens the same season, vs whom he shot 57%.

And, in any other case, you know and it has been mentioned that even most of the others still routinely shot below their averages when facing Wilt.

[LAZERUSS]

Yes, but these first few are the ones that I had primarily in mind (plus, to add to this, I doubt there are many single seasons any center shot above 50% vs Wilt - e.g, Reed shot 52% in 1969, but 46.5% vs Wilt, taken from 4 available games). Holding Kareem to below 50% is pretty remarkable. The fact that Kareem fans boast a lot about him averaging 40 ppg on 50% FG against Wilt in 1972 is a good indication of this as well, since 50% was still not a particularly high figure for someone who scored 40, especially if it's Kareem. It's not, e.g, anywhere near his domination on Cowens the same season, vs whom he shot 57%.

And, in any other case, you know and it has been mentioned that even most of the others still routinely shot below their averages when facing Wilt.

WAY below their averages.

Thurmond and Russell couldn't hit a shot to save their lives in their career H2H's with Chamberlain.

And Kareem was a brick-laying shot-jacker in the vast majority of his H2H's with Wilt.

[Asukal]

WAY below their averages.

Thurmond and Russell couldn't hit a shot to save their lives in their career H2H's with Chamberlain.

And Kareem was a brick-laying shot-jacker in the vast majority of his H2H's with Wilt.

Funny coz wilt was on the losing end. :oldlol: :roll:

[aj1987]

Four H2H's, with one known game involving Cowens' FG%.

Here is another example:
Gotcha. :cheers:

[Deuce Bigalow]

How come Wilt's Lakers were backdoor swept with HCA in Wilt's last season? How come his FG% dropped by 20 points in the Finals compared to the regular season?

[Gotterdammerung]

Are there threads about Wilt vs the other great centers that addresses the three different roles he played in his career?

The unstoppable scoring machine from 1959-1964

The all around destroyer from 1964-1969

The Bill Russell from 1969-1973

Also off-topic but is it interesting that the only two superstars who averaged 2 or fewer fouls per game are Wilt Chamberlain and LeBron James?
:coleman:

[La Frescobaldi]

How come Wilt's Lakers were backdoor swept with HCA in Wilt's last season? How come his FG% dropped by 20 points in the Finals compared to the regular season?

1973

FGM FGA FG%
426 586 .727

How is anybody getting 20 ppg by taking 7 shots a game?

[Deuce Bigalow]

1973

FGM FGA FG%
426 586 .727

How is anybody getting 20 ppg by taking 7 shots a game?
52.4% in the Finals

20.3% drop

[LAZERUSS]

How come Wilt's Lakers were backdoor swept with HCA in Wilt's last season? How come his FG% dropped by 20 points in the Finals compared to the regular season?

This was a 36 year old Chamberlain, playing in his last season, and taking his 60-22 Lakers to the Finals, where they would lose all four games in the last minute, to a 56-26 Knicks team that featured SIX HOFers. And he did so with his best teammate, West, playing poorly the entire series, and then puking all over the floor in the clinching game five loss. And in that clinching game five loss, all Wilt did, in his LAST game of his career, was score 23 points and grab 21 rebounds, and as he almost always did, outplayed his HOF opposing center in the process. And this was his FOURTH Finals in a span of FIVE years. And just the year before, at age 35, he chopped down a PEAK Kareem in the WCF's, and then dominated a Knicks team with FIVE HOFers, en route to a FMVP.

Now, let me ask you this...

What happened to a PRIME Kareem, in the FIRST ROUND that same '73 season, when he took his heavily-favored 60-22 Bucks down in flames against a 47-35 Warrior team, and in a series in which he shot .428? BTW, Chamberlain led his 60-22 Lakers to a 4-1 series rout over that same Warrior team, in a series in which he crushed Thurmond on the glass, and as ALWAYS, outshot Nate by a .611 to .373 margin.

Oh, and what happened to a 36 year old KAJ in his '84 Finals, when he shot .481 from the field, in a season in which he shot .578?

BTW, how about a 36 year old Hakeem, who, as almost always, once again led his team to a blowout first round playoff series loss, in a series in which he shot .426?

Shaq at age 36? Couldn't even get his team into the playoffs.

MJ at age 36? Hadn't played in two years.

Russell at age 36? Hadn't played in two years.

And how about his opposing center in that '73 Finals, Willis Reed, at age 36? Hadn't played for FIVE years.

Oh, and how about your boy, Kobe, at age 36? Oh wait...that is THIS year. But, a Kobe at age 34 suffered an ankle injury, had surgery, came back seven months later, played SIX games, and averaged 14 ppg on a .425 FG% while doing so. Oh, and then he suffered a knee injury similar to what a 34 year old Wilt had, and then missed the entire season. How about Wilt at age 34? Suffered a horrific knee injury in the ninth game of the season (remember, Kobe tore his knee up in the 6th game last year)...had major knee surgery, and came back four months later. And all he could do was carry his 46-36 Lakers into the seventh game of the Finals against a 60-22 Knicks team, and with a series in which he averaged 23 ppg, 24 rpg, and shot .625 from the field.


But yes, let's find fault with a 36 year old Chamberlain, who would put up a 22.5 rpg post-season in his 17 post-season games, in a post-season NBA that averaged 50.6 rpg...which, BTW, would be the LAST time an NBA player would ever average more than 17.3 rpg in a playoff run (KAJ's 17.3 rpg in 11 playoff games in '77.) Of course, that was Wilt's 13th straight post-season of 20+ rpg, and one of his worst.

Gotta love the "bashers"...

[LAZERUSS]

Are there threads about Wilt vs the other great centers that addresses the three different roles he played in his career?

The unstoppable scoring machine from 1959-1964

The all around destroyer from 1964-1969

The Bill Russell from 1969-1973

Also off-topic but is it interesting that the only two superstars who averaged 2 or fewer fouls per game are Wilt Chamberlain and LeBron James?
:coleman:

It has been covered...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=332617

[millwad]

Eaton 1-0 against Hakeem.

Thompson 1-0 against Hakeem.

Clemon Johnson 1-0 against Hakeem.

Donaldson 1-0 against Hakeem.

Lister 1-0 against Hakeem.

Etc, etc, etc.

Olajuwon crushed Eaton, Thompson, Johnson, Donaldson and Lister. Wanna claim that Reed got crushed by Wilt in the finals?

[millwad]

Fraud?

Only a complete moron would claim that Thurmond, Cowens, Hayes, Unseld, Lanier, Reed, Bellamy, Gilmore, and McAdoo would NOT be stars today.

Hell, an aging Thurmond gave a PEAK Kareem FAR more problems than a 23-24 year old Hakeem did to a 38-39 year Kareem.

That's just a lie, Olajuwon crushed Kareem and the Laker bigs as a 2nd year pro, in '86 when he led his Rockets to the finals.

Why do you cherry pick all the time?

[dr.hee]

That's just a lie, Olajuwon crushed Kareem and the Laker bigs as a 2nd year pro, in '86 when he led his Rockets to the finals.

Why do you cherry pick all the time?

Yup, Hakeem dropped 31/11 with 4 blocks a game on the Lakers in the 1986 playoffs. Jlauber is just as pathetic as Kobe/Lebron stans. His object of worship was a better player than both, but jlauber himself just sucks.

Here's Kareem vs. Thurmond
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=abdulka01&p2=thurmna01


As I said...jlauber is a total joke. Wilt would be ashamed to have such an idiot sucking his d!ck.

[LAZERUSS]

Yup, Hakeem dropped 31/11 with 4 blocks a game on the Lakers in the 1986 playoffs. Jlauber is just as pathetic as Kobe/Lebron stans. His object of worship was a better player than both, but jlauber himself just sucks.

Here's Kareem vs. Thurmond
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=abdulka01&p2=thurmna01


As I said...jlauber is a total joke. Wilt would be ashamed to have such an idiot sucking his d!ck.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

After their 72-73 H2H's, Thurmond was an often injured, PART-TIME player.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Showing stats from game in which Kareem scored 40 points, and in which the Cavs starting cnter fouled out.

Talk about MORONS.

The REALITY was...

Kareem shot .447 against a full-time Nate from '69-70 thru '72-73, and was easily outplyed by Thurmond in the '72 playoffs.

[LAZERUSS]

That's just a lie, Olajuwon crushed Kareem and the Laker bigs as a 2nd year pro, in '86 when he led his Rockets to the finals.

Why do you cherry pick all the time?

Of course it was SAMPSON who was the primary defender on a 39 year old Kareem.

Why?

Because of this 46 point game (on 21-30 shooting, and in only 37 minutes of play)

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5398655&postcount=14



Worthy after the game: "Kareem always plays better against Olajuwon. It's because of all the comparisons. He's been around 17 years but he still has to show the kids that he's the best."

Hakeem after the game: "He played real tough. I tried to go around him and steal the ball but he slipped around me and went to the basket."


Los Angeles Times:

While Akeem Olajuwon spent the whole game trying to steal the ball from Abdul-Jabbar, the Laker center spent the whole game throwing down a breathtaking series of hook shots on his way to a 46-point explosion.

For some reason, Rocket Coach Bill Fitch thinks it is a good idea to let Olajuwon go one-on-one with Abdul-Jabbar. It proved to be the biggest coaching blunder in any Laker game this season.

Abdul-Jabbar made 21 of 30 shots in 37 minutes to reach his high this season. He probably could have scored 50 points (his career high is 55) had he played any longer.




Over the course of 10 STRAIGHT H2H games from the '84-85 season thru the '85-86 season...Kareem averaged 32 ppg on a staggering .621 FG% against a HELPLESS Hakeem. Included were THREE games of 40+.

[dr.hee]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

After their 72-73 H2H's, Thurmond was a PART-TIME player.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Showing stats from game in which Kareem scored 40 points, and in which the Cavs starting cnter fouled out.

Talk about MORONS.

The REALITY was...

Kareem shot .447 against a full-time Nate from '69-70 thru '72-73, and was easily outplyed by Thurmond in the '72 playoffs.

Ah I see, "ageing Thurmond" is age 28-32? Got it.


If Wilt wasn't already dead, dude would probably kill himself in shame reading all your essays :roll:

For real, you must hate Wilt, right? No real fan would do his idol the disservice you're doing to his legacy with all your rambling on this board. So..are you really a Kareem or Russell stan? Or just mentally ill?

[LAZERUSS]

Ah I see, "ageing Thurmond" is age 28-32? Got it.


If Wilt wasn't already dead, dude would probably kill himself in shame reading all your essays :roll:

For real, you must hate Wilt, right? No real fan would do his idol the disservice you're doing to his legacy with all your rambling on this board. So..are you really a Kareem or Russell stan? Or just mentally ill?

Thurmond's last season as a healthy full-time starter was in 72-73, at age 31.

I don't care how old he was at the time. He was never again healthy.

[AceManIII]

Also off-topic but is it interesting that the only two superstars who averaged 2 or fewer fouls per game are Wilt Chamberlain and LeBron James?
:coleman:

They actually have a lot of similarities to be honest...:coleman:

[LAZERUSS]

Olajuwon crushed Eaton, Thompson, Johnson, Donaldson and Lister. Wanna claim that Reed got crushed by Wilt in the finals?

Do you want to claim that Wilt was in his healthy prime in '70 and '73?

At age 36 did far better against both Kareem and Reed, than a 36 year old Hakeem did against Shaq.

[LAZERUSS]

For the idiots...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=291462

thanks to Julizaver BTW...


I am posting the aggregated stats of Kareem against Nate Thurmond during the period 1969 - 1973 season by season, as in that period both players met 3 times in the playoffs and in total of 34 times (including the regular season meetings):

1969 - 1970 (Kareem's rookie season) 3 games - reg.season

Kareem - 42.0 mpg 21.67 ppg, 12.0 rpg, 4.0 apg, 0.348 FG/FGA

Nate ---- 46.7 mpg 20.67 ppg, 17.0 rpg, 3.3 apg, 0.490 FG/FGA


1970 - 1971 6 games - reg.season

Kareem - 26.67 ppg, 14.7 rpg, 0.484 FG/FGA

Nate ---- 23.83 ppg, 11.0 rpg, 0.477 FG/FGA


1970 - 1971 5 games - playoffs

Kareem - 39.2 mpg 27.8 ppg, 15.6 rpg, 0.6 apg, 0.486 FG/FGA

Nate ---- 38.4 mpg 17.60 ppg, 10.2 rpg, 3.0 apg, 0.371 FG/FGA


1971 - 1972 3 games - reg.season

Kareem - 24.00 ppg, 16.3 rpg, 0.441 FG/FGA

Nate ---- 16.33 ppg, 12.3 rpg, 0.260 FG/FGA


1971 - 1972 5 games - playoffs

Kareem - 47.0 mpg 22.8 ppg, 19.0 rpg, 5.4 apg, 0.405 FG/FGA

Nate ---- 46.0 mpg 25.40 ppg, 17.8 rpg, 5.2 apg, 0.434 FG/FGA


1972 - 1973 6 games - reg.season

Kareem - 25.83 ppg, 13.7 rpg, 0.488 FG/FGA

Nate ---- 13.67 ppg, 15.0 rpg, 0.367 FG/FGA


1972 - 1973 6 games - playoffs

Kareem - 46.0 mpg 22.83 ppg, 16.2 rpg, 2.8 apg, 0.428 FG/FGA

Nate ---- 42.5 mpg 13.5 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 3.2 apg, 0.423 FG/FGA

Not ONE season, or post-season, of approaching 50% shooting against Thurmond, and in fact, a couple of shooting barely 40% or below.

[LAZERUSS]

And take a look at a 38 and 39 year old Kareem vs. Hakeem in their '84-85 and '85-86 season H2H's (covering TEN STRAIGHT games)...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=abdulka01&p2=olajuha01

Hell, a 40 year old Kareem was outplaying Hakeem...

In their four H2H's in the 86-87 season, Kareem shot 32-55 from the field (.582), while Hakeem shot...get this... (27-67), or .403.

[dankok8]

Here are some FG% not yet posted in the thread for 1972-1973...

Wilt vs. Cowens (4 games)

Wilt: 14.3 ppg, 14.5 rpg, 2.3 apg on 58.8 %FG
Cowens: 31.3 ppg, 19.8 rpg, 6.0 apg on 45.4 %FG

We have the full data. Cowens... :bowdown:

Wilt vs. Haywood (6 games)

Wilt: 15.5 ppg, 17.0 rpg, 5.0 apg on 86.8 %FG
Haywood: 28.8 ppg, 14.8 rpg (5 games), 2.5 apg (4 games), 49.5 %FG (4 games)

Wilt vs. Lanier (6 games)

Wilt: 19.8 ppg, 15.8 rpg, 3.4 apg on 76.4 %FG
Lanier: 21.2 ppg, 13.4 rpg (5 games), 3.2 apg (5 games), 37.4 %FG (5 games)




Kareem vs. Cowens (4 games)

Kareem: 29.0 ppg, 14.8 rpg, 6.3 apg (3 games) on 48.6 %FG
Cowens: 21.3 ppg, 11.3 rpg, 4.0 apg (3 games) on 40.0 %FG (3 games)


Kareem vs. Haywood (6 games)

Kareem: 30.0 ppg, 12.8 rpg, 7.4 apg (5 games) on 58.6 %FG
Haywood: 29.3 ppg, 12.6 rpg (5 games), 2.7 apg (3 games) on 48.0 %FG (3 games)

Kareem vs. Lanier (6 games)

Kareem: 34.7 ppg, 17.0 rpg, 4.4 apg (5 games) on 59.9 %FG
Lanier: 19.3 ppg, 12.8 rpg (4 games), 2.8 apg (4 games) on 42.9 %FG (4 games)

[LAZERUSS]

Here are some FG% not yet posted in the thread for 1972-1973...

Wilt vs. Cowens (4 games)

Wilt: 14.3 ppg, 14.5 rpg, 2.3 apg on 58.8 %FG
Cowens: 31.3 ppg, 19.8 rpg, 6.0 apg on 45.4 %FG

We have the full data. Cowens... :bowdown:

Wilt vs. Haywood (6 games)

Wilt: 15.5 ppg, 17.0 rpg, 5.0 apg on 86.8 %FG
Haywood: 28.8 ppg, 14.8 rpg (5 games), 2.5 apg (4 games), 49.5 %FG (4 games)

Wilt vs. Lanier (6 games)

Wilt: 19.8 ppg, 15.8 rpg, 3.4 apg on 76.4 %FG
Lanier: 21.2 ppg, 13.4 rpg (5 games), 3.2 apg (5 games), 37.4 %FG (5 games)




Kareem vs. Cowens (4 games)

Kareem: 29.0 ppg, 14.8 rpg, 6.3 apg (3 games) on 48.6 %FG
Cowens: 21.3 ppg, 11.3 rpg, 4.0 apg (3 games) on 40.0 %FG (3 games)


Kareem vs. Haywood (6 games)

Kareem: 30.0 ppg, 12.8 rpg, 7.4 apg (5 games) on 58.6 %FG
Haywood: 29.3 ppg, 12.6 rpg (5 games), 2.7 apg (3 games) on 48.0 %FG (3 games)

Kareem vs. Lanier (6 games)

Kareem: 34.7 ppg, 17.0 rpg, 4.4 apg (5 games) on 59.9 %FG
Lanier: 19.3 ppg, 12.8 rpg (4 games), 2.8 apg (4 games) on 42.9 %FG (4 games)

Thank you.

But again, Haywood was NOT a center in '73 (Jim fox and Jim McDaniel were.)

And again, take a look at Wilt's defense. No one even close to 50% shooting against him. Even a prime Lanier couldn't hit the broadside of a barn against him.

All from a 36 year old Wilt WAY beyond his prime.

[millwad]

Do you want to claim that Wilt was in his healthy prime in '70 and '73?

At age 36 did far better against both Kareem and Reed, than a 36 year old Hakeem did against Shaq.

Wilt has been numerous different accounts been called to be in his defensive prime in '72, the same year where Kareem averaged 40 points on 50% shooting against him.

And your are full of nonsense if you claim that he was completely busted up, he was averaging 42+ minutes per game.

Ehm, by age 36 Olajuwon was completely busted up and he still held Shaq to 29 points per game and he got outscored by 16 in the playoffs by Shaq. Kareem outscored Wilt with 23 points per game in the '72 playoffs, haha.

And a 36 year old was crushed by freaking Dave Cowens. :facepalm

[millwad]

Thank you.

But again, Haywood was NOT a center in '73 (Jim fox and Jim McDaniel were.)

And again, take a look at Wilt's defense. No one even close to 50% shooting against him. Even a prime Lanier couldn't hit the broadside of a barn against him.

All from a 36 year old Wilt WAY beyond his prime.

Haha, so Haywood's 49.5% shooting is not close to 50% shooting? :facepalm

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt has been numerous different accounts been called to be in his defensive prime in '72, the same year where Kareem averaged 40 points on 50% shooting against him.

And your are full of nonsense if you claim that he was completely busted up, he was averaging 42+ minutes per game.

Ehm, by age 36 Olajuwon was completely busted up and he still held Shaq to 29 points per game and he got outscored by 16 in the playoffs by Shaq. Kareem outscored Wilt with 23 points per game in the '72 playoffs, haha.

And a 36 year old was crushed by freaking Dave Cowens. :facepalm

A 35 year old Chamberlain held a PEAK 25 year old Kareem to a .457 FG% in the '72 WCF's. Oh, and in the last four pivotal games of that series... a .414 FG%. Kareem shot his team right down the drain in those four games.

And a PRIME Chamberlain was FAR more of defensive force than a '72 Wilt. NO ONE shot well against a PRIME Chamberlain, including Reed and Bellamy.

A PRIME Wilt, in his '64 and '68 seasons, put up the highest "non-Russell" DWS seasons in NBA history. And the reality was, a '67 Chamberlain was even more dominant defensively, than in '64 and '68.

Shaq SLAUGHTERED Hakeem in their '99 playoffs...at every aspect of the game. And we BOTH KNOW that a young Shaq, scored 28 ppg on a staggering .595 FG% against a PEAK Hakeem.

BTW, Kareem and Wilt went at it in 28 career H2H's (27 pf which were a 34-36 year old Wilt on a surgically repaired knee), and held him to a TOTAL of 10 games of 50+% shooting, and only ONE of 60%. How about a 37-41 year old Kareem vs. Hakeem in their 23 career H2H's? TWENTY of 50%+, including TWELVE of 60%, and even FIVE of 70%!

Chamberlain held a PEAK Kareem under 40% shooting in SIX of their 28 carer H2Hs BTW.

[LAZERUSS]

Haha, so Haywood's 49.5% shooting is not close to 50% shooting? :facepalm

Of course, since you NEVER do any research...PROVE to me that Haywood was the Sonics' CENTER in '73.

[millwad]

Of course, since you NEVER do any research...PROVE to me that Haywood was the Sonics' CENTER in '73.

Prove me that Gilmore was guarded by Olajuwon in the this thread you created: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=259815

You're such a god damn clown, so you can start a thread on a pure assumption but you go nuts over people assuming in a post in a thread. Hypocrite de luxe.

[millwad]

A 35 year old Chamberlain held a PEAK 25 year old Kareem to a .457 FG% in the '72 WCF's. Oh, and in the last four pivotal games of that series... a .414 FG%. Kareem shot his team right down the drain in those four games.

You forgot that Kareem averaged 40 points on 50% shooting in the regular season against Wilt, that same season, haha. I love how you always cherry pick, notice how you didn't post the scoring Kareem did nor that he outscored Wilt with 23 points per game in that same series.

And of course you don't mention that Kareem still had a better FG% than Wilt in that series.



Shaq SLAUGHTERED Hakeem in their '99 playoffs...at every aspect of the game. And we BOTH KNOW that a young Shaq, scored 28 ppg on a staggering .595 FG% against a PEAK Hakeem.

And we all know that Olajuwon was crowned the champ by everyone, including the media and Shaq himself.

If you wanna talk about slaughter, Wilt got outscore with 23 points per game by Kareem in '72 playoffs. The same year you claimed that he "murdered" Kareem.

[LAZERUSS]

Prove me that Gilmore was guarded by Olajuwon in the this thread you created: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=259815

Don't be a hypocrite.

Gilmore was a starting CENTER. As was Hakeem. We KNOW that. Now, if Hakeem wasn't guarding a post-up center like Gilmore, how come?

And BTW, you challenged JLauber with this comment didn't you?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7169350&postcount=12


Jlauber, you're full of shit as always

This is the correct stats regarding Olajuwon's head to head vs Artis;

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=olajuha01

And Artis didn't even face Olajuwon 10 times from 84-86.

Which, as ALWAYS, was proven wrong.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=gilmoar01&p2=olajuha01

MORON!

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[LAZERUSS]

You forgot that Kareem averaged 40 points on 50% shooting in the regular season against Wilt, that same season, haha. I love how you always cherry pick, notice how you didn't post the scoring Kareem did nor that he outscored Wilt with 23 points per game in that same series.

And of course you don't mention that Kareem still had a better FG% than Wilt in that series.



And we all know that Olajuwon was crowned the champ by everyone, including the media and Shaq himself.

If you wanna talk about slaughter, Wilt got outscore with 23 points per game by Kareem in '72 playoffs. The same year you claimed that he "murdered" Kareem.

YOU are the one "cherry-picking" ...

KAJ had ONE regular season span, covering FIVE H2H games against Chamberlain, in which he shot 50% (and it was EXACTLY 50%). Of course, in his two highest scoring games against Wilt in those five H2H's, his team was blown out (in his 50 point game, his Bucks were down by 21 points going into the 4th quarter...in a 16 point loss.. Talk about meaningless...) Oh, and overall, Wilt's Lakers beat Kareem's Bucks 4-1 in those regular season H2H's, and 8-3 in all of them that year.

BTW, here were KAJ's FG%'s against Wilt in his other "segments" of his career against him...

'70 regular season : .429

'71 regular season: .438

'71 post-season: .481

'72 WCF's: .457 (and again, only .414 in the last four games of that series)

'73 regular season: .450 (oh, and Chamberlain shot .737 against him.)

In fact, in their last TEN STRAIGHT H2H games, a PEAK Kareem shot .434 against Wilt.

[dankok8]

Wilt in his last 2 seasons was cited by many to play the best defense of his career. Even if he wasn't at his defensive peak in 1972 and 1973 he wasn't far off from it. It's not a matter of ability it's a matter of energy invested. A prime Wilt produced too much on offense to be capable of playing at that level of defense night after night.

For example while Wilt dominated a scoring center like Walt Bellamy, his opponent had some awesome offensive performances of his own and averaged 34.7 ppg against Wilt in 1962.

EDIT: Kareem for his career still averaged 31.0 ppg against Wilt on 46.4% shooting. Those are hardly bad averages. In fact give me one center who put up those kind of numbers for 25+ games against any all-time great defender. You won't find many...

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt in his last 2 seasons was cited by many to play the best defense of his career. Even if he wasn't at his defensive peak in 1972 and 1973 he wasn't far off from it. It's not a matter of ability it's a matter of energy invested. A prime Wilt produced too much on offense to be capable of playing at that level of defense night after night.

For example while Wilt dominated a scoring center like Walt Bellamy, his opponent had some awesome offensive performances of his own and averaged 34.7 ppg against Wilt in 1962.

EDIT: Kareem for his career still averaged 31.0 ppg against Wilt on 46.4% shooting. Those are hardly bad averages. In fact give me one center who put up those kind of numbers for 25+ games against any all-time great defender. You won't find many...

A 35-36 year old Wilt was NOWHERE near a PRIME Chamberlain in ANY sense.

BTW, Bellamy was a GREAT scorer, who torched RUSSELL every bit as much as he did Wilt (33 ppg in '62). And a PRIME defensive Wilt held a prime Bellamy to a .421 FG% in their '68 playoff H2H's.

BTW, Chamberlain averaged 48.2 ppg against a PEAK Bellamy, and on a .500% in TWENTY STRAIGHT games.

NO ONE was EVER as DOMINANT as a PRIME Chamberlain.

[millwad]

YOU are the one "cherry-picking" ...

KAJ had ONE regular season span, covering FIVE H2H games against Chamberlain, in which he shot 50% (and it was EXACTLY 50%). Of course, in his two highest scoring games against Wilt in those five H2H's, his team was blown out (in his 50 point game, his Bucks were down by 21 points going into the 4th quarter...in a 16 point loss.. Talk about meaningless...) Oh, and overall, Wilt's Lakers beat Kareem's Bucks 4-1 in those regular season H2H's, and 8-3 in all of them that year.


So many excuses, haha.
Haha, I just love this. So when Kareem absolutely slaughtered Wilt in a game they were getting blown out in, then you call it "meaningless". At the same time you are the one who always give the edge to Shaq in the one game in the finals when he scored all his points when his team already was down and were down with 20. You're such a hypocrite.

Yes, they beat the Bucks 8 to 3 but it sure as hell wasn't because Wilt got the best of Kareem. Kareem busted Wilt up and Wilt won due to having Jerry West and the guys who outplayed the Bucks big time.

And from now, don't cherry pick with only writing the FG%, it's misleading.

[millwad]

A 35-36 year old Wilt was NOWHERE near a PRIME Chamberlain in ANY sense.

BTW, Bellamy was a GREAT scorer, who torched RUSSELL every bit as much as he did Wilt (33 ppg in '62). And a PRIME defensive Wilt held a prime Bellamy to a .421 FG% in their '68 playoff H2H's.

BTW, Chamberlain averaged 48.2 ppg against a PEAK Bellamy, and on a .500% in TWENTY STRAIGHT games.

NO ONE was EVER as DOMINANT as a PRIME Chamberlain.

Zero rings as the main scorer.

[LAZERUSS]

So many excuses, haha.
Haha, I just love this. So when Kareem absolutely slaughtered Wilt in a game they were getting blown out in, then you call it "meaningless". At the same time you are the one who always give the edge to Shaq in the one game in the finals when he scored all his points when his team already was down and were down with 20. You're such a hypocrite.

Yes, they beat the Bucks 8 to 3 but it sure as hell wasn't because Wilt got the best of Kareem. Kareem busted Wilt up and Wilt won due to having Jerry West and the guys who outplayed the Bucks big time.

And from now, don't cherry pick with only writing the FG%, it's misleading.

West shot .386 in that series against the Bucks. He was simply AWFUL the ENTIRE post-season.

[LAZERUSS]

Zero rings as the main scorer.

And took essentially LAST PLACE rosters to within any eye-lash of beating Russell's HOF-laden Celtics TWICE. Oh, and his teammates collectively shot .345 in the '62 EDF's... in a seven game series.

His 64-65 Sixers, which were a 34-46 the year before he arrived (and they traded THREE players to get Wilt), went 21-20 with Wilt. Then, with Chamberlain just crushing Occar's loaded 48-32 Royals in the first round, Wilt then led that Sixer team to a game seven, one point loss, against a 62-18 Celtic team, in a series in which Wilt averaged 30 ppg, 31 rpg, and shot .555 from the field (in a post-season NBA that shot .429 BTW.)

BTW, Hakeem's TEAMMATES shot an eFG% of .504 in the '95 Finals, and a TS% of .589. Hakeem shot an FG% of .488, and a TS% of .508. You will NEVER find ONE series in Chamberlain's career, in which his TEAMMATES collectively shot anywhere near that. And in fact, you can find SEVERAL of .354, .352, .352, and even .332.

In his four game seven's against Russell, his teammates shot .365, .329, .323, and .360... in losses by 2, 1, 4, and 2 points.

[millwad]

West shot .386 in that series against the Bucks. He was simply AWFUL the ENTIRE post-season.

Buhu, Robertson only made 37% of his shots while averaging less than 10 points.

And while talking about FG%, you always diss Kareem for his shooting. Wilt himself only 36.8% of his shots in the first 5 games.

[millwad]

And took essentially LAST PLACE rosters to within any eye-lash of beating Russell's HOF-laden Celtics TWICE. Oh, and his teammates collectively shot .345 in the '62 EDF's... in a seven game series.

His 64-65 Sixers, which were a 34-46 the year before he arrived (and they traded THREE players to get Wilt), went 21-20 with Wilt. Then, with Chamberlain just crushing Occar's loaded 48-32 Royals in the first round, Wilt then led that Sixer team to a game seven, one point loss, against a 62-18 Celtic team, in a series in which Wilt averaged 30 ppg, 31 rpg, and shot .555 from the field (in a post-season NBA that shot .429 BTW.)

BTW, Hakeem's TEAMMATES shot an eFG% of .504 in the '95 Finals, and a TS% of .589. Hakeem shot an FG% of .488, and a TS% of .508.

Yeah, while you're at it, tell us how many all-stars the '94 and '95 Rockets had without counting in Olajuwon. I'll tell you, ZERO.

In '94 Olajuwon's best scoring teammate in the playoffs was Maxwell who averaged 13.6 points per game on 38% shooting. Haha, and here you are crying over Wilt's HOF-teammates.

[LAZERUSS]

Yeah, while you're at it, tell us how many all-stars the '94 and '95 Rockets had without counting in Olajuwon. I'll tell you, ZERO.

In '94 Olajuwon's best scoring teammate in the playoffs was Maxwell who averaged 13.6 points per game on 38% shooting. Haha, and here you are crying over Wilt's HOF-teammates.

And who did Hakeem's Rockets beat in the '94 Finals? A 56-26 Knick team in which their second best scorer shot .368 from the field. That NY team had NO MORE surrounding talent than Hakeem did. And they still nearly beat the favored Rockets (and outscored them in the seven game series.)

[LAZERUSS]

Buhu, Robertson only made 37% of his shots while averaging less than 10 points.

And while talking about FG%, you always diss Kareem for his shooting. Wilt himself only 36.8% of his shots in the first 5 games.


Chamberlain missed a COMBINED 23 shots in the '72 WCF's. Kareem? 107! Wilt's "misses" were far less damaging than Kareem's.

[jongib369]

A 35-36 year old Wilt was NOWHERE near a PRIME Chamberlain in ANY sense.

BTW, Bellamy was a GREAT scorer, who torched RUSSELL every bit as much as he did Wilt (33 ppg in '62). And a PRIME defensive Wilt held a prime Bellamy to a .421 FG% in their '68 playoff H2H's.

BTW, Chamberlain averaged 48.2 ppg against a PEAK Bellamy, and on a .500% in TWENTY STRAIGHT games.

NO ONE was EVER as DOMINANT as a PRIME Chamberlain.
What are the numbers for Bellamy and Russell?

[millwad]

And who did Hakeem's Rockets beat in the '94 Finals? A 56-26 Knick team in which their second best scorer shot .368 from the field. That NY team had NO MORE surrounding talent than Hakeem did. And they still nearly beat the favored Rockets (and outscored them in the seven game series.)

Cherry-picking as usual.

Rockets 2nd best scorer: Maxwell - 13.4 points on 36% shooting
Rockets 3rd best scorer: Horry - 10.3 points on 32% shooting
Rockets 4th best scorer: Cassell - 10 points on 42% shooting

Knicks 2nd best scorer: Starks - 17.7 points on 36% shooting
Knicks 3rd best scorer: Harper - 16.4 points on 46% shooting
Knicks 4th best scorer: 11 points on 48% shooting

And shut up, don't even try to claim that Olajuwon had as much talent as Ewing had. The series went to game 7 even though Olajuwon outplayed Ewing big time.

Olajuwon - 26.9 points on 50% shooting
Ewing - 18.9 points on 36% shooting

[LAZERUSS]

What are the numbers for Bellamy and Russell?

Here we go...

61-62:


Russell vs Bellamy 10 H2H games:

Russell: 21.3 ppg, 17.2 rpg, .593 eFG% (3 known games)
Bellamy: 33.2 ppg, 20.9 rpg (9 known games), (no known FG% games.)

Bellamy had high games of 41 and 47 points against Russell. He outscored Russell in 9 of the 10 H2H's. He outrebounded Russell 7 of the 9 known games.



Bellamy vs Wilt 10 H2H games:

Bellamy: 34.7 ppg, 21.1 rpg (9 known games), (no known FG% games)
Wilt: 52.7 ppg, 28.1 rpg, .501 eFG%

Chamberlain outscored Bellamy in 9 of the 10 H2H's, and outrebounded him in 8 of the 9 known H2H's.

Bellamy had high games of 44, 45, and 47 points against Wilt...and was outscored by Chamberlain in all three.

Wilt had 7 games of 50+ points against Bellamy.
Wilt had 3 games of 60+ points against Bellamy.
His high game was 73 points (on 29-48 FG/FGA and with 36 rebounds.)


62-63:


Russell vs. Bellamy ... 9 H2H games:

Russell: 16.6 ppg, 22.0 rpg (6 known games), .314 eFG% (3 known games)
Bellamy: 30.3 ppg, 19.0 rpg (6 known games), no known FG% games.

Bellamy outscored Russell 9-0, and they tied in rebounding H2H's, 2-2-1.

Bellamy had games in which he outscored Russell by margins of 32-18, 39-24, 35-16, and 33-10.


Bellamy vs. Wilt... 10 H2H games:

Bellamy: 29.7 ppg, 19.6 rpg (7 known games), and again, no known FG%'s.
Wilt: 42.8 ppg, 24.9 rpg (9 known games), .542 eFG% (7 known games.)

Amazingly, Wilt held a 9-0-1 margin in scoring in those 10 games, and a 6-0-1 margin in the known 7 rebounding games.

Bellamy had one game of 46 points against Wilt, but Chamberlain put up 54 in the same game.

Bellamy had two more 30+ point games (38 and 37, and was outscored 50-38 in one, and tied Wilt at 37 in the other.)

Overall, Wilt had four games of 50+ against Bellamy, with a high of 57. And he had margins as high as 46-29, 36-18, 51-23, and 57-29


63-64:


Russell-Bellamy in their 10 H2H's:

Russell: 13.5 ppg, 20.9 rpg (9 known games), .366 eFG% (3 known games)

Bellamy: 24.9 ppg, 18.9 rpg (7 known games), and no known FG% games.

Bellamy outscored Russell, 8-2, in those 10 H2H's, with margins as high as 29-8, 32-10, and 45-14.

Russell outrebounded Bellamy in their 7 known games, 4-3.



Bellamy-Wilt in their 10 H2H games:

Bellamy: 23.3 ppg, 15.2 rpg (9 known games), and no known FG% games.

Wilt: 35.0 ppg, 21.7 rpg, .546 eFG% (only 3 known games however.)

Wilt outscored Bellamy, 9-1 in those ten games.

And Chamberlain had a monster three straight game run against Bellamy, in which he outscored Bellamy by margins of 49-36; 43-19, and get this... 44-5.
Wilt also outscored Bellamy by margins of 35-19, and 38-21, as well.

Wilt won the rebounding battles, 7-2, including margins of 25-13, 26-11, and 34-16.



64-65:


Bellamy's stats vs. the other HOF centers:

Thurmond in 5 H2H's: 17.4 ppg, 13.0 rpg (3 known games), no known FG%'s.
Reed in 10 H2H's: 22.6 ppg, 14.0 rpg (only 1 known game), no known FG%'s.
Russell in 9 H2H's: 25.8 ppg, 15.8 rpg (5 known games), no known FG%'s.
Wilt in 9 H2H's: 26.3 ppg, 14.1 rpg (7 known games), no known FG%'s.

Bellamy's high scoring game against Russell was 45 points. He also had two other 32 point games against him. He had games of 30 and 31 points against Reed. He had a 30 point game against Nate (his next highest was 20.) And his high games against Wilt were 37, 33, 32, and 31 points.

Russell vs. the other HOF centers:

Nate in 4 H2H's: 12.0 ppg, 32.7 rpg (3 known games), .333 FG% (1 known)
Reed in 9 H2H's: 16.0 ppg, 21.1 rpg (8 known), .547 FG% (6 known games)
Bellamy in 9 H2H's: 12.9 ppg, 19.7 rpg, .475 FG% (5 known games.)
Wilt in 11 reg H2H's: 12.6 ppg, 22.2 rpg, 4.6 apg, .281 FG% (10 known)

Wilt vs. the other HOF centers:

Bellamy in 9 H2H's: 38.3 ppg, 21.7 rpg, .547 FG% (8 known games.)
Reed in 12 H2H's: 38.6 ppg, 21.2 rpg, .532 FG% (8 known games.)
Russell in 11 reg H2H's: 25.4 ppg, 26.5 rpg, 4.2 apg, .473 FG%
Nate in 3 H2H's: 26.7 ppg, 26.3 rpg, .500 FG%.

Chamberlain had a horrible 7-21 FG/FGA game against Nate, but historically, that was an aberration. He also had a 34-26 game, on 13-20 FG/FGA against him, as well. Overall, in their 3 H2H's, Wilt held a 3-0 scoring margin, and a 1-0 margin in their only known rebounding H2H.

Wilt just shelled Reed in the majority of their 12 H2H's. He outscored him 11-1, including margins of 37-22, 29-12, 46-25, 52-23, 41-8, and 58-28. He also had rebounding games of 28, 32, and 32 against Reed.

Wilt continued his plastering of Bellamy, too. He held a 7-2 scoring margin edge, including margins of 51-33, 43-25, 56-37, 40-16, and 53-20. Chamberlain also held a 6-1 edge in their known rebounding H2H's, which included margins of 29-16, and 28-10.

The Chamberlain-Russell duels were continuing to become more-and-more one-sided, as well. In their 11 regular season H2H's, Chamberlain enjoyed a 10-1 scoring edge (and Russell's lone "win" was 11-8 in a game in which Wilt left injured.) Included were margins of 24-6, 31-7, and 37-16. Wilt also outrebounded Russell by an 8-3 margin, which included margins of 32-24, 26-17, 34-17, and 43-26. And again, look at Russell's known FG%... an unfathomable .281 in the known 10 of their 11 season H2H's (and in one game Russell shot an unbelievable 0-14!)!

Wilt vs Russell in 7 EDF's games:

30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, 3.3 apg, and a .555 eFG%.

Wilt outscored Russell in all 7 games, including margins of 30-15, 34-18, 30-12, 30-12, and 33-11. Chamberlain also held a 5-2 margin in rebounding H2H's in that post-season, including margins of 37-26, and 39-16.

Again...just total domination against four HOF centers.





65-66:


Bellamy vs, Russell in 11 H2H games:

Russell averaged 15.9 ppg, 25.2 rpg, and .554 (6 known H2H's.)
Bellamy averaged 23.8 ppg, 17.8 rpg (8 known H2Hs), .476 (9 known H2Hs)

Bellamy had games of 32 and 31 points against Russell. Russell's high game against Bellamy was 22 points. Bellamy's high rebounding games were 25 and 23, while Russell had 10 of 20+ with a high of 29. Overall, Bellamy outscored Russell by a 9-2 margin, while Russell outrebounded Bellamy, 8-0 in their 8 known H2Hs.

Bellamy vs Wilt in their 11 H2H games:

Bellamy: 25.2 ppg, 16.1 rpg (10 known) and no known FG%'s.
Wilt: 33.0 ppg, 19.8 rpg, and .543 FG% (6 known games.)

Bellamy had games of 39 and 36 points against Wilt, and overall, had 9 of 20+. Bellamy's high rebounding game against Chamberlain was 24, and he also had 22 in another.

Overall, despite Bellamy's 25.2 ppg, Wilt held a 9-1-1 scoring margin, and a 5-0 rebounding margin in their known H2H rebounding games. Wilt's low game against Bellamy was 23 points, and he had 7 of 30+, with high games of 50 and 38. Chamberlain also had six games of 20+ rebounds, with a high of 26.




66-67:


Bellamy vs. Russell in 9 H2H's:

Bellamy: 18.9 ppg, 13.3 rpg (3 known), .513 FG% (3 known)
Russell: 11.4 ppg, 20.5 rpg (6 known), .405 FG% (4 known)

Bellamy had four games of 20+ points against Russell with two of 27. He also had a 22 point, 23 rebound game. Russell's high game against Bellamy was 21 points, and his high rebound game against Bells was 26. Overall, Bellamy outscored Russell, 7-2 in those H2H's, while Russell held a 2-1 margin in known rebounding games.

Bellamy vs. Wilt in 9 H2H's:

Bellamy: 23.2 ppg, 15.9 rpg (8 known), and no known FG% games
Wilt: 22.7 ppg, 25.7 rpg, and on a .709 FG% (!)

Unfortunately, we do not have any Bellamy FG% games, but as you can see, Wilt shot an unfathomable .709 against Bellamy (and perhaps Reed at times, as well.) For the first time in their six seasonal H2H's, Bellamy outscored Wilt (just barely.) Bellamy had six games of 20+, with a high game of 34 points. His high rebounding game against Chamberlain was 20. Wilt also had six games of 20+ points against Bellamy, with a high game of 35 points (on 15-18 shooting.) Wilt also had 8 games of 20+ rebounds, with highs of 30 and 33 against Bellamy. Overall, Wilt held a 5-3-1 scoring margin, and an 8-0 rebounding margin in the known H2H's.




67-68:


Bellamy vs Russell in 8 H2H's:

Bellamy: 14.8 ppg, 11.0 rpg (4 known), and .429 FG% (4 known.)
Russell: 10.8 ppg, 16.0 rpg, and a .677 FG% (4 known, but he had four games of single digit scoring, and none of them had known FG%'s.)

Bellamy did have a 30 point game, and another 26-19 game against Russell. Russell's high scoring game was 17, and in the same game, he had his high rebounding game, with 20.


Bellamy vs. Wilt in 8 regular season H2H's:

Bellamy: 20.6 ppg, 15.8 rpg (4 known), with no known FG% games.
Wilt: 22.6 ppg, 20.8 rpg, 6.6 apg, .543 FG%.

Bellamy had games of 30, 27, 24, 22, and 20 points against Wilt. He also had rebounding high games of 21, 20, and 19. Chamberlain had games of 39, 28, 27, and 26 points against Bellamy. And Wilt's high rebounding games were 27, 26, 21, 21, 20 and 20. Overall, Chamberlain outscored Bellamy, 4-3-1, and they split rebounding H2H's, 3-3-2.

Bellamy vs Wilt in their 6 playoff H2H's:

Bellamy: 20.0 ppg, 16.0 rpg, 3.5 apg, .421 FG%
Wilt: 25.5 ppg, 24.2 rpg, 6.3 apg, .584 FG%

Chamberlain just abused Bellamy in this series. They did split scoring, at 3-3, but Wilt hung high games of 37, 26, 25, 24 and 23 on Bells. Bellamy's high games were 28, 26, 22, and 19. Chamberlain crushed Bellamy on the glass by a 5-0-1 margin, including beatdowns of 29-15, 27-13, and 21-10. And, again, Chamberlain slaughtered Bellamy (who had shot .541 against the NBA during the regular season), by a .584 to .421 margin.

[millwad]

Chamberlain missed a COMBINED 23 shots in the '72 WCF's. Kareem? 107! Wilt's "misses" were far less damaging than Kareem's.

Haha, Wilt didn't score because he got shot down.
So by your logic Kareem damaged his team by outscoring his opponent center with 23 points per game on better FG% while outassisting him and while shooting FT's twice as good as Chamberlain?

Wilt was the one who only made 36% of his FGA in the first 5 games of that series, if he would have been saved by his teammates that would go down as the biggest abuse of Wilt in history. Wilt won because his teammates outplayed Kareem's, Wilt himself was shut down.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt in his last 2 seasons was cited by many to play the best defense of his career. Even if he wasn't at his defensive peak in 1972 and 1973 he wasn't far off from it. It's not a matter of ability it's a matter of energy invested. A prime Wilt produced too much on offense to be capable of playing at that level of defense night after night.

For example while Wilt dominated a scoring center like Walt Bellamy, his opponent had some awesome offensive performances of his own and averaged 34.7 ppg against Wilt in 1962.

EDIT: Kareem for his career still averaged 31.0 ppg against Wilt on 46.4% shooting. Those are hardly bad averages. In fact give me one center who put up those kind of numbers for 25+ games against any all-time great defender. You won't find many...

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Chamberlain averaged 29 ppg in his 143 career H2H's with RUSSELL. In his first seven seasons, Chamberlain averaged 34 ppg against Russell, with THREE SEASONS, covering 8-13 games, 38 ppg, 38 ppg and 40 ppg.

Hell, a Chamberlain who "declined" in the post-season, and over the course of his first 25 playoff games against Russell, averaged 31 ppg and on a .503 FG%.

Again, a PRIME Chamberlain was, BY FAR, the most dominant center to have ever played the game.

[Glass Ankles]

Laz do you have Wilt's regular season and playoff stats in his GSW years? Thanks in advance.

[LAZERUSS]

Haha, Wilt didn't score because he got shot down.
So by your logic Kareem damaged his team by outscoring his opponent center with 23 points per game on better FG% while outassisting him and while shooting FT's twice as good as Chamberlain?

Wilt was the one who only made 36% of his FGA in the first 5 games of that series, if he would have been saved by his teammates that would go down as the biggest abuse of Wilt in history. Wilt won because his teammates outplayed Kareem's, Wilt himself was shut down.


What is hilarious about all of this KAJ-Wilt nonsense...is that this was a PEAK Kareem, and a 34-36 year old Chamberlain, years removed from his prime, and still giving Kareem all he could handle.

In their 10 H2H's in '71,Wilt, a year removed from major knee surgery, and having the WORST season of his career, outplayed a PEAK Kareem, in his greatest season, in the majority of those 10 H2H's. In fact, by virtually all accounts, he outplayed KAJ in THREE of their FIVE post-season H2H's. And how about this... in the clinching game five loss of the '71 WCF's, Chamberlain left the floor with a little over a minute left...and received a STANDING OVATION (after completely shutting Kareem down to the point of 7-23 shooting)...and the game was played in MILWAUKEE!

Fortunately for Kareem, he never faced a PRIME Chamberlain.

[LAZERUSS]

Laz do you have Wilt's regular season and playoff stats in his GSW years? Thanks in advance.

I apologize for the length of this research, but you will probably find everything you need in the following, since it covers both his regular and post-season play.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=332617

BTW, to save you some time, Wilt played with the Warriors from '60 thru the first half of '65, and he played in the post-season with the Warriors from '60 thru '64.

[Glass Ankles]

I apologize for the length of this research, but you will probably find everything you need in the following, since it covers both his regular and post-season play.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=332617

BTW, to save you some time, Wilt played with the Warriors from '60 thru the first half of '65, and he played in the post-season with the Warriors from '60 thru '64.
Thanks, I will check it out.

[LAZERUSS]

Laz do you have Wilt's regular season and playoff stats in his GSW years? Thanks in advance.

And I could also use this...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chambwi01.html

BTW, you can go to nbastats.net, and scroll down to find Wilt's (and other's) indivdual game breakdowns in an excel spreadsheet. It pretty much contains almost every single known stat for Wilt, and covers all 1200 of his games.

And if you want to compare Russell and Wilt in their H2H's, thanks to Fpliii...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aoy3YD7IdypTdEpOeFRwY29NRTUtWVlFWVJ5TkFDY 3c#gid=0

[PsychoBe]

Mods? Laz is off his meds again.

[LAZERUSS]

Updated the OP...

Chamberlain's defense in known games in his LAST season:

McAdoo: .500 (1 game)

Reed: .493 (5 games)

Cowens: .454 (4 games)

Kareem: .450 (6 games)

Lanier: .374 (5 games)

Bellamy: .350 (1 game)

Thurmond: .340 (7 games)


And overall:


Vs. Cowens in 4 H2H's:

Cowens: 31.3 ppg, 19.8 rpg, .454 FG%

Wilt: 14.3 ppg, 14.5 rpg, .588 FG%



vs. Reed in 3 regular season H2H's:

Reed: 12.0 ppg, 10.0 rpg, no known FG%'s

Wilt: 6.3 ppg, 23.3 rpg, .529 FG%

vs. Reed in 5 Finals' H2H's:

Reed: 16.4 ppg, 9.2 rpg, .493 FG%

Wilt: 11.6 ppg, 18.6 rpg, .525 FG%


vs. Bellamy in 4 H2H's:

Bellamy: 17.0 ppg, 18.0 rpg ( 2 known games), .350 FG% (1 known game)

Wilt: 9.8 ppg, 20.5 rpg, .593 FG%


vs. Unseld in 4 H2H's:

Unseld: 12.8 ppg, 15.3 rpg, no known FG% games

Wilt: 12.8 ppg, 20.8 rpg, .769 FG%


vs. McAdoo in 4 H2H's:

McAdoo: 16.8 ppg, 8.8 rpg, .500 FG% (1 known game)

Wilt: 20.5 ppg, 21.3 rpg, .850 FG%


vs. Thurmond in 7 regular season H2H's:

Thurmond: 12.3 ppg, 21.6 rpg, .217 FG% (2 known games)

Wilt: 5.1 ppg, 16.6 rpg, .684 FG%

vs. Thurmond in 5 playoff H2H's:

Thurmond: 15.8 ppg, 17.2 rpg, .373 FG%

Wilt: 7.0 ppg, 23.6 rpg, .611 FG%


vs. Lanier in 6 H2H's:

Lanier: 21.2 ppg, 13.4 rpg (5 known games), .374 FG% (5 known games)

Wilt: 19.8 ppg, 16.3 rpg, .764 FG%



vs. Kareem in 6 H2H's:

Kareem: 29.5 ppg, 17.8 rpg, .450 FG%

Wilt: 11.0 ppg, 16.0 rpg, .737 FG%

[millwad]

What is hilarious about all of this KAJ-Wilt nonsense...is that this was a PEAK Kareem, and a 34-36 year old Chamberlain, years removed from his prime, and still giving Kareem all he could handle.

In their 10 H2H's in '71,Wilt, a year removed from major knee surgery, and having the WORST season of his career, outplayed a PEAK Kareem, in his greatest season, in the majority of those 10 H2H's. In fact, by virtually all accounts, he outplayed KAJ in THREE of their FIVE post-season H2H's. And how about this... in the clinching game five loss of the '71 WCF's, Chamberlain left the floor with a little over a minute left...and received a STANDING OVATION (after completely shutting Kareem down to the point of 7-23 shooting)...and the game was played in MILWAUKEE!

Fortunately for Kareem, he never faced a PRIME Chamberlain.

Really, you are the same guy who claimed that Wilt murdered Kareem in '72 while Kareem averaged 40 points on 50% shooting against Wilt in the regular season and while outscoring him with 23 points per game on better FG%.

That is the kind of poster you are, you can't admit that Wilt got outplayed and you're just too biased. That is why no one ever take you seriously, you got destroyed by everyone to the point that you changed account from "Jlauber" to "Lazeruss" and you added your alts to the mix just because you felt you needed someone backing you up.

You didn't see the games, you're just an obsessed old fart with too little things going on in your life. Lying and dreaming about a dead basketball player who you never saw play is just beyond pathetic. Do something good with your life, you just copy and paste bogus biased posts while thinking you are doing someone something good.

Go and show some dedication and love to your family instead of a dead basketball player.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Really, you are the same guy who claimed that Wilt murdered Kareem in '72 while Kareem averaged 40 points on 50% shooting against Wilt in the regular season and while outscoring him with 23 points per game on better FG%.

That is the kind of poster you are, you can't admit that Wilt got outplayed and you're just too biased. That is why no one ever take you seriously, you got destroyed by everyone to the point that you changed account from "Jlauber" to "Lazeruss" and you added your alts to the mix just because you felt you needed someone backing you up.

You didn't see the games, you're just an obsessed old fart with too little things going on in your life. Lying and dreaming about a dead basketball player who you never saw play is just beyond pathetic. Do something good with your life, you just copy and paste bogus biased posts while thinking you are doing someone something good.

Go and show some dedication and love to your family instead of a dead basketball player.

Well said.

[LAZERUSS]

Really, you are the same guy who claimed that Wilt murdered Kareem in '72 while Kareem averaged 40 points on 50% shooting against Wilt in the regular season and while outscoring him with 23 points per game on better FG%.

That is the kind of poster you are, you can't admit that Wilt got outplayed and you're just too biased. That is why no one ever take you seriously, you got destroyed by everyone to the point that you changed account from "Jlauber" to "Lazeruss" and you added your alts to the mix just because you felt you needed someone backing you up.

You didn't see the games, you're just an obsessed old fart with too little things going on in your life. Lying and dreaming about a dead basketball player who you never saw play is just beyond pathetic. Do something good with your life, you just copy and paste bogus biased posts while thinking you are doing someone something good.

Go and show some dedication and love to your family instead of a dead basketball player.

Again, this was a 35 Chamberlain, and going up against a PEAK Kareem.

Furthermore, virtually EVERYONE who actually watched that series (and I saw every minute of it)...claimed that Wilt OUTPLAYED Kareem (and he certainly did in the last four games BTW.) TIME MAGAZINE even hailed it as as "DECISIVELY" outplaying a Kareem, 11 years his junior, over the course of the entire SERIES.

And even the MILWAUKEE PRESS claimed that it was WILT who won that series.

But keep on typing up your lies and ignorant posts.

BTW, you want "outplayed?" How about a 40 year old Kareem outplaying a 24 year Hakeem in their four '87 H2H's. Outscored him and outshot him from the field by a .582 to .403 margin. Of course, unlike the '86 WCF's, Hakeem didn't have Sampson to defend KAJ in that season. A 40 year old having his way with a 24 year old Hakeem.

[Y2ktors]

Again, this was a 35 Chamberlain, and going up against a PEAK Kareem.

Furthermore, virtually EVERYONE who actually watched that series (and I saw every minute of it)...claimed that Wilt OUTPLAYED Kareem (and he certainly did in the last four games BTW.) TIME MAGAZINE even hailed it as as "DECISIVELY" outplaying a Kareem, 11 years his junior, over the course of the entire SERIES.

And even the MILWAUKEE PRESS claimed that it was WILT who won that series.

But keep on typing up your lies and ignorant posts.

BTW, you want "outplayed?" How about a 40 year old Kareem outplaying a 24 year Hakeem in their four '87 H2H's. Outscored him and outshot him from the field by a .582 to .403 margin. Of course, unlike the '86 WCF's, Hakeem didn't have Sampson to defend KAJ in that season. A 40 year old having his way with a 24 year old Hakeem.
Sampson did play twice against Kareem Abdul-Jabbar That season before being traded.

Hakeem Olajuwon did struggle from the field in their last 2 matchups that season, in which his supporting cast went to shit with the trades and 2 year suspensions. In those last 2 games vs Kareem, Kareem scored a total of 29 points. Great efficiency but only 29 total points so he wasn't exactly beasting vs Hakeem.

[LAZERUSS]

Sampson did play twice against Kareem Abdul-Jabbar That season before being traded.

Hakeem Olajuwon did struggle from the field in their last 2 matchups that season, in which his supporting cast went to shit with the trades and 2 year suspensions. In those last 2 games vs Kareem, Kareem scored a total of 29 points. Great efficiency but only 29 total points so he wasn't exactly beasting vs Hakeem.

Well we know that Hakeem could NEVER defend Kareem, but let me ask you this...

How do you think a 22-24 year old Kareem would have fared against a 38-40 year old Hakeem?

[LAZERUSS]

BTW, and for those that somehow don't believe that Wilt would be a force today...

how about this statline against a prime 6-11 265 lb. HOFer Bob Lanier, who would go on to be among the best centers of the 70's, and by the late 70's was outplaying Kareem? BTW, Lanier would probably measure at over 7-0 ft in today's NBA.


vs. Lanier in 6 H2H's:

Lanier: 21.2 ppg, 13.4 rpg (5 known games), .374 FG% (5 known games)

Wilt: 19.8 ppg, 16.3 rpg, .764 FG%

This, from a 36 year old Wilt in his LAST season...

[La Frescobaldi]

BTW, and for those that somehow don't believe that Wilt would be a force today...

how about this statline against a prime 6-11 265 lb. HOFer Bob Lanier, who would go on to be among the best centers of the 70's, and by the late 70's was outplaying Kareem? BTW, Lanier would probably measure at over 7-0 ft in today's NBA.



This, from a 36 year old Wilt in his LAST season...

Lanier outplaying Jabbar? Maybe in a game or two.........

[LAZERUSS]

Lanier outplaying Jabbar? Maybe in a game or two.........

Granted we don't have all of Lanier's stats, but from their 75-76 season, thru their 79-80 seasonal H2H's, Lanier outscored Kareem over the course of 13 games.

Their 75-76 seasonal H2H's were particularly interesting. Lanier had one game in which he outscored Kareem by a 41-30 margin, and over the course of their four H2H's, they each scored 92 points. However, Kareem shot 35-83 in those H2H's...or .422. And in their one 78-79 H2H, Lanier outscored KAJ, 28-13, while holding Kareem to 5-16 shooting.

Again, and unfortunately, we don't (yet) have Lanier's rebounds or FG%'s.

Needless to say, the two were very close in the last half of the decade of the 70's. In fact, a peak McAdoo was routinely outscoring Kareem in that span, including a 45 point game in which he hit 17 straight shots (just one shy of Wilt's record of 18 straight in a game.)

And Gilmore gave Kareem all he could handle from the late 70's into the early 80's.

And finally, by now everyone here knows that Moses Malone just owned Kareem in their 40 career H2H's.

All of those centers, and then Thurmond and Wilt, gave a peak, to prime, to near-prime Kareem, far more problems than the centers that an old Kareem would face who would go on to dominate in the 90's.


BTW, a PEAK Kareem, from '70-72 just dominated Lanier, and virtually all of his opposing centers (he just slaughtered Cowens BTW), EXCEPT Thurmond and Wilt.

Those that claim that Kareem's peak was in the mid-70's to early 80's had better take a closer look at his H2H's with the HOF centers that dominated the 70's. Players like Lanier and Cowens had caught up to him, and other's like McAdoo, Gilmore, and Moses were either outplaying him, or giving him all he could handle.

[PsychoBe]

Granted we don't have all of Lanier's stats, but from their 75-76 season, thru their 79-80 seasonal H2H's, Lanier outscored Kareem over the course of 13 games.

Their 75-76 seasonal H2H's were particularly interesting. Lanier had one game in which he outscored Kareem by a 41-30 margin, and over the course of their four H2H's, they each scored 92 points. However, Kareem shot 35-83 in those H2H's...or .422. And in their one 78-79 H2H, Lanier outscored KAJ, 28-13, while holding Kareem to 5-16 shooting.

Again, and unfortunately, we don't (yet) have Lanier's rebounds or FG%'s.

Needless to say, the two were very close in the last half of the decade of the 70's. In fact, a peak McAdoo was routinely outscoring Kareem in that span, including a 45 point game in which he hit 17 straight shots (just one shy of Wilt's record of 18 straight in a game.)

And Gilmore gave Kareem all he could handle from the late 70's into the early 80's.

And finally, by now everyone here knows that Moses Malone just owned Kareem in their 40 career H2H's.

All of those centers, and then Thurmond and Wilt, gave a peak, to prime, to near-prime Kareem, far more problems than the centers that an old Kareem would face who would go on to dominate in the 90's.


BTW, a PEAK Kareem, from '70-72 just dominated Lanier, and virtually all of his opposing centers (he just slaughtered Cowens BTW), EXCEPT Thurmond and Wilt.

Those that claim that Kareem's peak was in the mid-70's to early 80's had better take a closer look at his H2H's with the HOF centers that dominated the 70's. Players like Lanier and Cowens had caught up to him, and other's like McAdoo, Gilmore, and Moses were either outplaying him, or giving him all he could handle.

pm me for wilt pics

[Y2ktors]

Well we know that Hakeem could NEVER defend Kareem, but let me ask you this...

How do you think a 22-24 year old Kareem would have fared against a 38-40 year old Hakeem?
No, we don't know that.

[millwad]

Well we know that Hakeem could NEVER defend Kareem, but let me ask you this...

How do you think a 22-24 year old Kareem would have fared against a 38-40 year old Hakeem?

Prime defensive Olajuwon can't be compared with mid 80's Olajuwon, stop making up pure bogus assumptions. And it's funny how you always spam so hard about their match-ups when everyone knows that Olajuwon as a 2nd year pro played the showtime Lakers in the WCF, the same Laker team that won it all the year before and he absolutely destroyed Kareem and the Lakers.

What we do know is that prime defensive Wilt had Kareem averaging 40 points on 50% shooting over a whole regular season in '72. That is beyond pathetic and especially when you consider the fact that the '72 season is the same season Wilt got his 2nd ring.

[Helix]

What we do know is that prime defensive Wilt had Kareem averaging 40 points on 50% shooting over a whole regular season in '72. That is beyond pathetic and especially when you consider the fact that the '72 season is the same season Wilt got his 2nd ring.


PRIME defensive Wilt? You're kidding, right? Wilt was 35 years old..........he WAS primarily focused on defense for the Lakers.....that was his role. But his defensive prime was from about '64 through '68.

40 ppg at 50% shooting in five games over the 71-72 season looks pretty impressive on the surface. However, let's take a look beneath the surface. The first thing you see is the Lakers won four of those five games. Hmmm, that's interesting. The next thing we notice is that Kareem took TEN MORE SHOTS per game aginst the Lakers than he did over the course of the year against the rest of the league. We also see that Kareem's field goal percentage against the rest of the league that year was 58.1%. So his 50% against Wilt and the Lakers was a pretty significant drop from his overall average. What was going on was that Wilt wasn't just guarding Kareem, he was also guarding the Laker basket. His defense so disrupted the Buck offense that it forced Kareem into taking ten more shots than he normally would have, of which he only made three. Seems to me Wilt not only did his job, he actually did it quite well.....and at the age of 35.

[LAZERUSS]

More evidence that Chamberlain just OWNED Thurmond his ENTIRE career. All 7 of their regular season H2H's are now complete...

8-20, 5-12, 6-17, 3-9, 6-20, 5-19, and 2-14...or 35-111...

.315 FG%.

I won't take the time to redo their known career H2H's, but before five of those games, Nate had shot .363 against Wilt in all of their known H2H's. Now it is likely less than .360.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[LAZERUSS]

No, we don't know that.

YES, we DO.

Just KILLED him.

[LAZERUSS]

Updated...


Chamberlain, at age 36, and in his LAST season vs the best centers in the league:


Vs. Cowens in 4 H2H's:

Cowens: 31.3 ppg, 19.8 rpg, .454 FG%

Wilt: 14.3 ppg, 14.5 rpg, .588 FG%



vs. Reed in 3 regular season H2H's:

Reed: 12.0 ppg, 10.0 rpg, .471 FG%

Wilt: 6.3 ppg, 23.3 rpg, .529 FG%

vs. Reed in 5 Finals' H2H's:

Reed: 16.4 ppg, 9.2 rpg, .493 FG%

Wilt: 11.6 ppg, 18.6 rpg, .525 FG%


vs. Bellamy in 4 H2H's:

Bellamy: 17.0 ppg, 18.0 rpg ( 2 known games), .400 FG% (2 known game)

Wilt: 9.8 ppg, 20.5 rpg, .593 FG%


vs. Unseld in 4 H2H's:

Unseld: 12.8 ppg, 15.3 rpg, .481 FG%

Wilt: 12.8 ppg, 20.8 rpg, .769 FG%


vs. McAdoo in 4 H2H's:

McAdoo: 16.8 ppg, 8.8 rpg, .450 FG% (3 known games)

Wilt: 20.5 ppg, 21.3 rpg, .850 FG%


vs. Thurmond in 7 regular season H2H's:

Thurmond: 12.3 ppg, 21.6 rpg, .315 FG%

Wilt: 5.1 ppg, 16.6 rpg, .684 FG%

vs. Thurmond in 5 playoff H2H's:

Thurmond: 15.8 ppg, 17.2 rpg, .373 FG%

Wilt: 7.0 ppg, 23.6 rpg, .611 FG%


vs. Lanier in 6 H2H's:

Lanier: 21.2 ppg, 13.4 rpg (5 known games), .374 FG% (5 known games)

Wilt: 19.8 ppg, 16.3 rpg, .764 FG%



vs. Kareem in 6 H2H's:

Kareem: 29.5 ppg, 17.8 rpg, .450 FG%

Wilt: 11.0 ppg, 16.0 rpg, .737 FG%


NO opposing center shot more than .493 against Wilt, and Chamberlain outshot EVERY opposing center from the floor...most by HUGE margins.

And take a close look at the McAdoo-Wilt and Lanier-Wilt H2H's...


BTW, Chamberlain anchored the best defense in the '73 post-season, as well. The Lakers allowed an opposing FG% of .419, and the next best defensive team, Kareem's Bucks, allowed a .440 FG% (albeit, in a 4-2 series loss to the Warriors.)

[LAZERUSS]

No, we don't know that.

YES, we DO.

Just KILLED him.

In their first TEN STRAIGHT H2H games, a 38-39 year old Kareem AVERAGED 32.0 ppg on a ...get this... .633 FG%. If you want to extend it, a 38-40 year old Kareem, in 14 STRAIGHT H2H games, AVERAGED 28.2 ppg on...again... a .622 FG% against a 22-24 year old Hakeem.

In his 85-86 season, covering FIVE STRAIGHT H2H's, a 39 year old Kareem AVERAGED ... 33.0 ppg on a...get this... .640 FG%! Which included games of 35 points on 17-26 FG/FGA; 43 points on 16-24 FG/FGA; and 46 point (in only 37 minutes BTW), on a 21-30 FG/FGA.


As for Millwad's take that Hakeem "destroyed Kareem and the Lakers in the '86 WCF's"... a little perspective here...

It was SAMPSON that was the primary defender on Kareem in that series. Bill Fitch had taken a TON of heat during their regular season H2H's for allowing the horrific bloodshed with Hakeem helplessly trying to defend the 39 year old Kareem, and he finally came to his senses in the post-season, and had SAMPSON defend Kareem. The result? Hakeem outscored the 39 year old Kareem by a whopping 31 ppg to 27 ppg margin, out-rebounded him by an 11 rpg to 7 rpg margin; and outshot KAJ (again, it was SAMPSON holding Kareem down), by a .520 to .496 margin. BTW, Hakeem averaged 42 mpg to Kareem's 37.6 mpg in that series. Yep...Millwad can be proud of that. A 23 year old Hakeem, in one of his finest offensive seasons (23.5 ppg on a .526 FG%, and in only 36 mpg)...BARELY outplaying a 39 year old Kareem nearing the end of his career.

And again, a 40 year old Kareem then outplayed a 24 year old Hakeem in their four H2H's the very next season...outscoring a much more prime Hakeem by a 19 ppg to 17 ppg margin, and outshooting Hakeem from the field by a staggering .582 to .403 margin. And, if you were correct that it was Sampson defending Kareem in the first two games in '86-87 season, then Kareem outshot Hakeem in the other two by a 12-20 to 9-30 margin, or .600 to .300!

Talk about pure destruction. A 38-40 year old Kareem played FAR better against a 22-24 year old Hakeem, than he did against the rest of the NBA in that same span.

[LAZERUSS]

Here were the player comparisons vs. Wilt, and the rest of the league...

Reed: .474 vs. the NBA, ... .471 vs. Wilt (Wilt shot .529 against Reed)

Unseld: .493 vs. the NBA... .481 vs. Wilt (Wilt shot .769 vs. Unseld)

Cowens: .452 vs. the NBA... .454 vs. Wilt (Wilt shot .588 vs. Cowens)

McAdoo: .452 vs. the NBA... .450 vs. Wilt (Wilt shot .850 vs. McAdoo)

Bellamy: .505 vs. the NBA... .400 vs. Wilt (Wilt shot .593 vs. Bellamy)

Lanier: .493 vs. the NBA... .374 vs. Wilt (Wilt shot .764 vs. Lanier)

Thurmond: .446 vs. the NBA... .315 vs. Wilt (Wilt shot .684 vs. Nate)

Kareem: .554 vs. the NBA... .450 vs. Wilt (Wilt shot .737 vs. KAJ)


BTW, Wilt averaged 5.4 bpg in that season. He also anchored a Laker defense that came in second during the regular season in FG% against, at .434 (Milwaukee was #1 at .422.) And, in the playoffs, Chamberlain anchored the BEST defense in the post-season (and by a solid margin), which allowed opponents to shoot .419 (in 17 games), which was considerably ahead of Milwaukee's .440 (in only six games.) And if Julizaver reads this, maybe he can provide Wilt's post-season block totals. NBAstats.net has him with 46 blocks in five known games, or over 9 bpg.

Wilt was voted first team all-defense (over Thurmond, KAJ, Reed, Lanier, Elmore Smith, and other's.) For the second straight season BTW.

One of the greatest defensive seasons of all-time...and turned in by a 36 year old Wilt, in his LAST season.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Here were the player comparisons vs. Wilt, and the rest of the league...

Reed: .474 vs. the NBA, ... .471 vs. Wilt (Wilt shot .529 against Reed)

Unseld: .493 vs. the NBA... .481 vs. Wilt (Wilt shot .769 vs. Unseld)

Cowens: .452 vs. the NBA... .454 vs. Wilt (Wilt shot .588 vs. Cowens)

McAdoo: .452 vs. the NBA... .450 vs. Wilt (Wilt shot .850 vs. McAdoo)

Bellamy: .505 vs. the NBA... .400 vs. Wilt (Wilt shot .593 vs. Bellamy)

Lanier: .493 vs. the NBA... .374 vs. Wilt (Wilt shot .764 vs. Lanier)

Thurmond: .446 vs. the NBA... .315 vs. Wilt (Wilt shot .684 vs. Nate)

Kareem: .554 vs. the NBA... .450 vs. Wilt (Wilt shot .737 vs. KAJ)


BTW, Wilt averaged 5.4 bpg in that season. He also anchored a Laker defense that came in second during the regular season in FG% against, at .434 (Milwaukee was #1 at .422.) And, in the playoffs, Chamberlain anchored the BEST defense in the post-season (and by a solid margin), which allowed opponents to shoot .419 (in 17 games), which was considerably ahead of Milwaukee's .440 (in only six games.) And if Julizaver reads this, maybe he can provide Wilt's post-season block totals. NBAstats.net has him with 46 blocks in five known games, or over 9 bpg.

Wilt was voted first team all-defense (over Thurmond, KAJ, Reed, Lanier, Elmore Smith, and other's.) For the second straight season BTW.

One of the greatest defensive seasons of all-time...and turned in by a 36 year old Wilt, in his LAST season.


Always love how you completely ignore points scored (per game) while only mentioning FG%, when it fits your point :lol Go on with the same old same old :rolleyes:

[LAZERUSS]

Always love how you completely ignore points scored (per game) while only mentioning FG%, when it fits your point :lol Go on with the same old same old :rolleyes:

Check the OP...POS.

[LAZERUSS]

Always love how you completely ignore points scored (per game) while only mentioning FG%, when it fits your point :lol Go on with the same old same old :rolleyes:

BTW, only Cowens had a significant scoring increase (31.8 ppg compared to his 20.5 regular season average)...and the only other two players, out of those eight, that had a higher ppg average against Wilt, than their regular season averages, were Unseld (12.8 ppg vs 12.5), and Bellamy (16.1 ppg vs. 17.0 vs. Wilt)...while the other five had scoring declines (and on MUCH worse FG%'s.)

[LAZERUSS]

Always love how you completely ignore points scored (per game) while only mentioning FG%, when it fits your point :lol Go on with the same old same old :rolleyes:

And of course a typical Wilt-basher going out of their way to try and disparage an obviously GREAT defensive season, by a player in his LAST NBA season.

[LAZERUSS]

Just looked up Julizaver's numbers for Wilt's KNOWN blocks in his last post-season.

He has Wilt with a KNOWN 78 blocks in 11 games, and then 8 more in the first game of the Finals...or a KNOWN 86 blocked shots in 12 of his 17 playoff games in his LAST season!

In his KNOWN games, Wilt averaged 7.2 bpg, and even if he didn't block a shot in his other five games, he would STILL have averaged 5.1 bpg!


All of which is interesting...

In Wilt's LAST two post-seasons, covering 32 playoff games, we have a known 79 blocks in 10 of his '72 playoff games (including 15 on Kareem alone), and then 86 in his 12 known games in his last post-season. Just in the the known games, he had 165 blocked shots in a span of 22 games...or 7.5 bpg. Again, using the absurd theory that he didn't block another shot in the other 10 games, Chamberlain would STILL have averaged 5.2 bpg in his last two post-seasons.

[dankok8]

Granted we don't have all of Lanier's stats, but from their 75-76 season, thru their 79-80 seasonal H2H's, Lanier outscored Kareem over the course of 13 games.

Their 75-76 seasonal H2H's were particularly interesting. Lanier had one game in which he outscored Kareem by a 41-30 margin, and over the course of their four H2H's, they each scored 92 points. However, Kareem shot 35-83 in those H2H's...or .422. And in their one 78-79 H2H, Lanier outscored KAJ, 28-13, while holding Kareem to 5-16 shooting.

Again, and unfortunately, we don't (yet) have Lanier's rebounds or FG%'s.

Needless to say, the two were very close in the last half of the decade of the 70's. In fact, a peak McAdoo was routinely outscoring Kareem in that span, including a 45 point game in which he hit 17 straight shots (just one shy of Wilt's record of 18 straight in a game.)

And Gilmore gave Kareem all he could handle from the late 70's into the early 80's.

And finally, by now everyone here knows that Moses Malone just owned Kareem in their 40 career H2H's.

All of those centers, and then Thurmond and Wilt, gave a peak, to prime, to near-prime Kareem, far more problems than the centers that an old Kareem would face who would go on to dominate in the 90's.


BTW, a PEAK Kareem, from '70-72 just dominated Lanier, and virtually all of his opposing centers (he just slaughtered Cowens BTW), EXCEPT Thurmond and Wilt.

Those that claim that Kareem's peak was in the mid-70's to early 80's had better take a closer look at his H2H's with the HOF centers that dominated the 70's. Players like Lanier and Cowens had caught up to him, and other's like McAdoo, Gilmore, and Moses were either outplaying him, or giving him all he could handle.

This post is either pure misinformation or cherrypicking. It's not that it matters because Kareem was never about stats but I'll play along...

In their first 32 H2H's from 1970 to 1975, Kareem just destroyed Lanier. Then in the next 10 H2H's 1975 to 1979 Lanier was playing Kareem close. But still the scoring battles were 5-5 and the rebounding margins and shooting % were almost surely in Kareem's favor. Overall through their entire careers Kareem just dominated Lanier. Don't cherry-pick a few games that prove otherwise.

I've already posted Kareem's battles with McAdoo and even from 1973 to 1976 when Bob was at his peak Kareem was usually outplaying him easily. Outshooting him, heavily outrebounding him, outassisting him, and outscoring about half the time as well.

In some 40 or so H2H's between Kareem and Cowens, Dave was lucky if he won max 4 or 5 games. He absolutely got killed by Kareem.

Oh and by the way from the second half of his rookie season until the end of 1972-1973 Kareem just dominated the whole NBA including Wilt and Nate.

1970-1973

Season

Kareem: 31.8 ppg, 15.8 rpg, 3.5 apg on 46.3 %FG/73.1 %FT
Wilt: 16.3 ppg, 17.6 rpg, 3.7 apg on 56.0 %FG/53.0 %FT

14-3 in scoring and 8-9 in rebounding.

Playoff

Kareem: 29.7 ppg, 17.4 rpg, 4.5 apg on 46.6 %FG/69.4 %FT
Wilt: 15.9 ppg, 19.1 rpg, 2.7 apg on 47.8 %FG/43.7 %FT

8-3 in scoring and 6-5 in rebounding.

Season

Kareem: 25.1 ppg, 14.2 rpg, 4.0 apg on 45.6 %FG/72.0 %FT
Nate: 18.7 ppg, 13.6 rpg, 3.1 apg on 43.5 %FG/68.7 %FT

*missing one RPG and a few APG and FG% numbers for Nate

14-3-1 in scoring and 11-5-1 in rebounding.

Playoff

Kareem: 24.4 ppg, 16.9 rpg, 2.9 apg on 43.8 %FG/61.7 %FT
Nate: 18.5 ppg, 12.4 rpg, 3.2 apg on 41.1 %FG/77.6 %FT

12-3-1 in scoring and 12-4 in rebounding.

[DatAsh]

This post is either pure misinformation or cherrypicking. It's not that it matters because Kareem was never about stats but I'll play along...

In their first 32 H2H's from 1970 to 1975, Kareem just destroyed Lanier. Then in the next 10 H2H's 1975 to 1979 Lanier was playing Kareem close. But still the scoring battles were 5-5 and the rebounding margins and shooting % were almost surely in Kareem's favor. Overall through their entire careers Kareem just dominated Lanier. Don't cherry-pick a few games that prove otherwise.

I've already posted Kareem's battles with McAdoo and even from 1973 to 1976 when Bob was at his peak Kareem was usually outplaying him easily. Outshooting him, heavily outrebounding him, outassisting him, and outscoring about half the time as well.

In some 40 or so H2H's between Kareem and Cowens, Dave was lucky if he won max 4 or 5 games. He absolutely got killed by Kareem.

Oh and by the way from the second half of his rookie season until the end of 1972-1973 Kareem just dominated the whole NBA including Wilt and Nate.

1970-1973

Season

Kareem: 31.8 ppg, 15.8 rpg, 3.5 apg on 46.3 %FG/73.1 %FT
Wilt: 16.3 ppg, 17.6 rpg, 3.7 apg on 56.0 %FG/53.0 %FT

14-3 in scoring and 8-9 in rebounding.

Playoff

Kareem: 29.7 ppg, 17.4 rpg, 4.5 apg on 46.6 %FG/69.4 %FT
Wilt: 15.9 ppg, 19.1 rpg, 2.7 apg on 47.8 %FG/43.7 %FT

8-3 in scoring and 6-5 in rebounding.

Season

Kareem: 25.1 ppg, 14.2 rpg, 4.0 apg on 45.6 %FG/72.0 %FT
Nate: 18.7 ppg, 13.6 rpg, 3.1 apg on 43.5 %FG/68.7 %FT

*missing one RPG and a few APG and FG% numbers for Nate

14-3-1 in scoring and 11-5-1 in rebounding.

Playoff

Kareem: 24.4 ppg, 16.9 rpg, 2.9 apg on 43.8 %FG/61.7 %FT
Nate: 18.5 ppg, 12.4 rpg, 3.2 apg on 41.1 %FG/77.6 %FT

12-3-1 in scoring and 12-4 in rebounding.

It's crazy just how good Kareem was so quickly. What are the odds of someone like Kareem coming along today?

[LAZERUSS]

It's crazy just how good Kareem was so quickly. What are the odds of someone like Kareem coming along today?

He did peak early. From the second half of his rookie season (69-70), thru his entire 70-71 season (inlcuding playoffs), and thru his 71-72 regular season, he was among the greatest to have ever played.

He was certainly great the rest of his career, but he was never again anything close to that dominant.

[DatAsh]

He did peak early. From the second half of his rookie season (69-70), thru his entire 70-71 season (inlcuding playoffs), and thru his 71-72 regular season, he was among the greatest to have ever played.

He was certainly great the rest of his career, but he was never again anything close to that dominant.

I think he peaked in the mid to late 70's. Early 70's is close though for me.

[LAZERUSS]

I think he peaked in the mid to late 70's. Early 70's is close though for me.

Just take a look at his H2H's with the centers that spanned the early 70's and into the 80's. He annihilated the majority of them in the early 70's, but by the mid-70's, players like Cowens and Lanier were battling him on almost even terms, and McAdoo was routinely outscoring him. Gilmore was notorious for giving him all he could handle from the late 70's into even the mid-80's. And Moses came along in the late 70's, and just OWNED Kareem.

A PEAK Kareem was among the best ever. Trouble was, he just didn't have the drive to be even greater. He slowly went downhill, starting with his horrific performance against Thurmond in the '72 playoffs. After that, while certainly great, he was nowhere near as dominant as he had been.

[Psileas]

It's crazy just how good Kareem was so quickly. What are the odds of someone like Kareem coming along today?

Yes, though, knowing he became 24 and 25 by the end of the 1971 and 1972 seasons, it's pretty consistent with the early statistical peaks/primes other greats had (Wilt averaging 50/26 at 25, Jordan 35/6/6/3/2 at 25, etc).

[DatAsh]

Yes, though, knowing he became 24 and 25 by the end of the 1971 and 1972 seasons, it's pretty consistent with the early statistical peaks/primes other greats had (Wilt averaging 50/26 at 25, Jordan 35/6/6/3/2 at 25, etc).
That's true. I think most players tend to peak statistically sooner than what most would consider their actual peak.

[SpanishACB]

one of you wilt fanboys is actually wilt right?

what's up with the constant justification threads as if we cared so much about a player none of us watched play?

it has to be wilt fighting his insecurity with thread posts

[Bigsmoke]

He basically played like Bill Russell

[LAZERUSS]

He basically played like Bill Russell

The reality was, Chamberlain was playing defense like Russell from the mid-60's on. And doing everything else MUCH better than Russell ever did.

[Stringer Bell]

Impressive.

2nd best center of his era. (Kareem is the era afterwards)

[LAZERUSS]

Impressive.

2nd best center of his era. (Kareem is the era afterwards)

You mean the Wilt that held a 7-2 margin in first-team All-NBA selections in his 10 years in the league with Russell?

The Chamberlain who just CRUSHED Russell in the vast majority of their 143 H2H games?

And if you are using TEAM SUCCESS against Wilt, then you will have to acknowledge that in their four years in the league together, Chamberlain was considerably more successful than Kareem.

[Stringer Bell]

You mean the Wilt that held a 7-2 margin in first-team All-NBA selections in his 10 years in the league with Russell?

The Chamberlain who just CRUSHED Russell in the vast majority of their 143 H2H games?

And if you are using TEAM SUCCESS against Wilt, then you will have to acknowledge that in their four years in the league together, Chamberlain was considerably more successful than Kareem.

Yes, that Wilt.

Russell > chamberlain

It's common knowledge

[LAZERUSS]

Yes, that Wilt.

Russell > chamberlain

It's common knowledge

No it isn't.

Again, Chamberlain not only won ROY in his very first season, he also won a convincing MVP. And by the mid-60's he was RUNNING AWAY with THREE straight MVPs, and in one ('68), Russell was nowhere to be found in the voting.

The 7-2 margin in First Team All-NBA selections was proof enough as to who was considered the better player.

[LAZERUSS]

Yes, that Wilt.

Russell > chamberlain

It's common knowledge

Common knowledge...

Ostertag > Shaq...

(8-1 post-season record against O'Neal.) Clearly he DOMINATED Shaq.