The basketball term "EuroStep" is inaccurate

[3ball]

The NBA put a new video out on Youtube to commemorate Elgin Baylor's 80th birthday.

In the video, Elgin is seen doing the "euro" step seen below.... One of the comments under the video was "looks like the euro step was actually created in the U.S"

this is a great example of how fans think that any move they see today, is something brand new...

fans' ignorance of the game has led to the completely inaccurate, nonsensical term "euro" step... it's like saying white people invented rock and roll.

GTFO.. Elgin Baylor invented the move and it's been a common move ever since... the Elginstep:


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/3c5076bcad2ce24dc333fa913d3c03f5.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/c4601718b82591a2757e218008c64099.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/45d490416f9c0571f08bdcb95aad7a92.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Michael_Jordan_Eurostep_5cc9d1bfc6064cfecf8deaef00 3568c2.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Michael_Jordan_Doing_Eurostep_1131c3189b6e3424c21a 5ee6e71b4415.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/7974a441220e03f68aa03e2979e59623.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/3fcf2363994f9fa018934d1a9c294c5a.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/9a0666804b32d5b4824561aad788cb8e.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/e5c777665305afa64599e3617936c25a.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/9ca229934e0f11c63816115c9538be26.gif
.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Its actually the opposite; most people believe that the past is better than the present for no reason :facepalm

[JohnFreeman]

What?

[navy]

It is called the Euro step because it was made popular by Europeans, no one ever said that nobody had ever done it before them.

[navy]

What?
My thoughts exactly. :oldlol:

[Element]

It is called the Euro step because it was made popular by Europeans, no one ever said that nobody had ever done it before them.

This. It's a really popular move in Europe. It's commonly accepted that it was Marciulionis who first started consciously spamming the move in the NBA. With MJ and Elgin, I actually wouldn't be surprised if they did those moves out of intuition lol

PS: Do you ever do any threads that aren't agenda-fueled? Don't even try to dismiss it dude. It's just so obvious

[navy]

This. It's a really popular move in Europe. It's commonly accepted that it was Marciulionis who first started consciously spamming the move in the NBA. With MJ and Elgin, I actually wouldn't be surprised if they did those moves out of intuition lol

PS: Do you ever do any threads that aren't agenda-fueled? Don't even try to dismiss it dude. It's just so obvious

Exactly. This thread is the only thing dumb here. How much insecurity do you have to have to be upset by the name of a basketball maneuver?

And no he doesnt. :oldlol:

[SamuraiSWISH]

Good post, saw MJ do it in the '92 Olympics as well.

[3ball]

With MJ and Elgin, I actually wouldn't be surprised if they did those moves out of intuition lol


Elgin did the move 60 years ago....

now you want to hit me with what you heard on ESPN about how Sarunas Marciulionis popularized it?

You either haven't been watching basketball for that long, OR, simply don't have the knowledge of the game or recall to understand that guys euro-stepped regularly in previous eras - so just like you and everyone else didn't know that Elgin, MJ, and Magic did the move, you are unaware that ANY decent guard did the move.

Ignorance this significant should be a bannable offense.
.

[CavaliersFTW]

Elgin did the move 60 years ago....

now you want to hit me with what you heard on ESPN about how Sarunas Marciulionis popularized it?

You either haven't been watching basketball for that long, OR, simply don't have the knowledge of the game or recall to understand that guys did regularly in previous eras - so just like you and everyone else didn't know that Elgin, MJ, and Magic did the move, you are unaware that ANY decent guard did the move.

i think ignorance this significant should be a bannable offense.
Footage exists of Dave Bing doing the Eurostep in a late 60's game, as well as Archie Clark doing it in the 72 ABA vs NBA supergame, also Dr. J doing it in 1974. They all make it look like a routine practiced move, known at the times. Because that's what it was. Eurostep is just a fancy name for faking one direction and going another while in transition on the way to the basket after the dribble has been picked up. Kind of like how a "Dream shake" is just a fancy name for a simple up and under followed by a pivot or reverse pivot. Simple moves, that have existed for a long time. They just acquired nicknames in the 80's and 90's and people think that's when they must have got invented.

[Element]

Elgin did the move 60 years ago....

now you want to hit me with what you heard on ESPN about how Sarunas Marciulionis popularized it?

You either haven't been watching basketball for that long, OR, simply don't have the knowledge of the game or recall to understand that guys euro-stepped regularly in previous eras - so just like you and everyone else didn't know that Elgin, MJ, and Magic did the move, you are unaware that ANY decent guard did the move.

Ignorance this significant should be a bannable offense.
.

Nobody itt claimed that the move was invented in Europe or that it didn't exist in the medieval ages of basketball or whatever the fvck it is you're pushing down my throat here

Wow they did the move? Omgg. Larry Bird shot three pointers in the 80s, too. You finna tell me that the three ball isn't way more popular now? Any proof that it (eurostep) was a big part of the arsenal of Magic, Michael and Elgin? Any at all, except footage of them doing like one or two? The move was named eurostep because it had been very popular in EUROpean basketball for a while and because a EUROpean was the first to do it regularly in the NBA.

S.hit, the player most effective at using it all-time might even be one of our own homwgrown American players, Dwyane Wade. I don't even get what your incoherent pile of bulls.hit is about, except for some thinly veiled "past is better" agenda

[3ball]

Nobody itt claimed that the move was invented in Europe or that it didn't exist in the medieval ages of basketball or whatever the fvck it is you're pushing down my throat here

a EUROpean was the first to do it regularly in the NBA.


Without even being aware that Elgin did the move in the first place, now you want to say he didn't do it regularly... your ignorance here is like screaming from the mountain top.

The "euro" step was a regularly used move.

The reason the media coined the phrase is because they are as ignorant as you on the topic.

I'm sorry these facts both disappoint and induce you into a binge of sophistry and denial... seriously, i am.. it hurts me too.. i have to be on here posting video and explaining history to you.
.

[iamgine]

OP, no one think Gordan Hayward and Trevor Ariza are as good as HOF's Chris Mullin, Alex English, Bernard King and Adrian Dantley.

OP, no one think euro step are created in Europe recently. That's just its name.

[oarabbus]

Come on guys... thought someone would post this by now.

"Eurosteps are nice but ain't nothin' like breakin' a mothafuc*as ankles" - James Naismith

[3ball]

....SF's With At Least a 15 PER


..2014 SF's..............................1990 SF's

Lebron James*...................... Larry Bird*
Kevin Durant*....................... Dominique Wilkins*
Carmelo Anthony*................. Scottie Pippen*
Paul George.......................... James Worthy*
Gordon Hayward................... Chris Mullin*
Kawhi Leonard...................... Bernard King*
Trevor Ariza.......................... Alex English*
Andre Iguodala..................... Adrian Dantley*
Nicholas Batum..................... Derrick McKey
Luol Deng............................. Reggie Lewis
Josh Smith........................... Orlando Woolridge
Chandler Parsons.................. Mark Aguirre
Rudy Gay............................. Jerome Kersey

HOF (*)






OP, no one think Gordan Hayward and Trevor Ariza are as good as HOF's Chris Mullin, Alex English, Bernard King and Adrian Dantley.


By saying 2014 SF's are better than 1990 SF's, people are saying the that 2014's role players > 1990's Hall-of-Famers...

The 1990 list of SF's had EIGHT Hall-of-Famers - it's impossible for the 2014 SF's to be better, yet somehow they are in the minds of many.




OP, no one think euro step are created in Europe recently. That's just its name.


Without knowing guys did the move AT ALL in previous eras, posters want to come on here and say they didn't do it regularly..

and be totally serious... :yaohappy:

[iamgine]

OP, you're comparing an entire decade to a year.

OP, it doesn't take much to know such a simple basketball moves must have been done before.

[3ball]

....SF's With At Least a 15 PER


..2014 SF's..............................1990 SF's

Lebron James*...................... Larry Bird*
Kevin Durant*....................... Dominique Wilkins*
Carmelo Anthony*................. Scottie Pippen*
Paul George.......................... James Worthy*
Gordon Hayward................... Chris Mullin*
Kawhi Leonard...................... Bernard King*
Trevor Ariza.......................... Alex English*
Andre Iguodala..................... Adrian Dantley*
Nicholas Batum..................... Derrick McKey
Luol Deng............................. Reggie Lewis
Josh Smith........................... Orlando Woolridge
Chandler Parsons.................. Mark Aguirre
Rudy Gay............................. Jerome Kersey

HOF (*)




OP, you're comparing an entire decade to a year.


I think you are trolling me, but I'll play along this first time.

Your comment here is exactly what I'm talking about.. People see that the 1990 list of SF's is better than 2014, so the first thing they think of is "well, he must have pitted the entire decade of the 90's versus just one year.."

No - The 2014 vs. 1990 SF comparison is one year (2014) versus one year (1990).

But it's the same irrational logic people use - The logic used to say "well, this must be for the entire decade of the 90's" is the same logic used use to say "wow, i didn't know they did that move back then... hmmm... they didn't do it regularly".

it's amazing the way the mind will work to find a rationale, no matter now nonsensical, to satisfy what someone wants to believe.
.

[iamgine]

OP, in 1990, English and Dantley was very very old. Many others are past their prime. To say English, for example, was comparable to Ariza at that point is fair. Maybe Ariza is even better.

[oarabbus]

....SF's With At Least a 15 PER


..2014 SF's..............................1990 SF's

Lebron James*...................... Larry Bird*
Kevin Durant*....................... Dominique Wilkins*
Carmelo Anthony*................. Scottie Pippen*
Paul George.......................... James Worthy*
Gordon Hayward................... Chris Mullin*
Kawhi Leonard...................... Bernard King*
Trevor Ariza.......................... Alex English*
Andre Iguodala..................... Adrian Dantley*
Nicholas Batum..................... Derrick McKey
Luol Deng............................. Reggie Lewis
Josh Smith........................... Orlando Woolridge
Chandler Parsons.................. Mark Aguirre
Rudy Gay............................. Jerome Kersey

HOF (*)




I think you are trolling me, but I'll play along this first time.

Your comment here is exactly what I'm talking about.. People see that the 1990 list of SF's is better than 2014, so the first thing they think of is "well, he must have pitted the entire decade of the 90's versus just one year.."

No - The 2014 vs. 1990 SF comparison is one year (2014) versus one year (1990).

But it's the same irrational logic people use - The logic used to say "well, this must be for the entire decade of the 90's" is the same logic used use to say "wow, i didn't know they did that move back then... hmmm... they didn't do it regularly".

it's amazing the way the mind will work to find a rationale, no matter now nonsensical, to satisfy what someone wants to believe.
.



Oh, you're doing 1990 vs. 2014 specifically? The way you argue doesn't make that very clear.

In that case, you are only confirming that 2014 is stronger. Here are some guys stats in the 1990 season
Adrian Dantley: 14/4
Derrick Mckey 15/6
Ordlando Woolridge 12/3
Mark Aguirre 14/4
Jerome Kersey16/8
Pippen 16/7/5
Dominique 26/6.5

I would take each of these guys 2014 "matchup" from the list above. I'll leave it to you to look up their 2014 seasons. Way more depth than the 1990 crew, and Bird/Bron is debatable.

[hahaitme]

Have you ever thought that maybe nobody gives a shit?

:confusedshrug:

[backb0ard]

Dude, do you also complain about how the hamburger is named when the first hamburger was originally from Connecticut and not Hamburg, Germany?

[3ball]

Oh, you're doing 1990 vs. 2014 specifically? The way you argue doesn't make that very clear.

In that case, you are only confirming that 2014 is stronger. Here are some guys stats in the 1990 season
Adrian Dantley: 14/4
Derrick Mckey 15/6
Ordlando Woolridge 12/3
Mark Aguirre 14/4
Jerome Kersey16/8
Pippen 16/7/5
Dominique 26/6.5


Those are some good numbers... The stats of the 2014 SF's looks exactly the same, only instead of being experienced HOFs, they are experienced role players..

the 1990 list has 8 HOF's plus another All-NBA player (Aguirre), but go ahead and take the role players over the HOF and all-nba players.

I highlighted the guys below that I think have the edge, but you tell me what you think - highlight which guys below you think have the edge.


....SF's With At Least a 15 PER


..2014 SF's..............................1990 SF's

Lebron James*.................... Larry Bird*
Kevin Durant*..................... Dominique Wilkins*
Carmelo Anthony*................. Scottie Pippen*
Paul George.......................... James Worthy*
Gordon Hayward................... Chris Mullin*
Kawhi Leonard...................... Bernard King*
Trevor Ariza.......................... Alex English*
Andre Iguodala..................... Adrian Dantley*
Nicholas Batum................... Derrick McKey
Luol Deng............................. Reggie Lewis
Josh Smith........................... Orlando Woolridge
Chandler Parsons.................. Mark Aguirre
Rudy Gay............................. Jerome Kersey

HOF (*)


Josh Smith had a negative offensive win share the last TWO YEARS, meaning his offense was below average... Also, comparing the championships of the 1990 crew to the 2014 crew also shows the difference.
.

[buddha]

to be honest those are pretty shitty eurosteps.

we might as well call it the Harden step because he seems to be the only person that is good at it.

[3ball]

Oh, you're doing 1990 vs. 2014 specifically? The way you argue doesn't make that very clear.

In that case, you are only confirming that 2014 is stronger. Here are some guys stats in the 1990 season
Adrian Dantley: 14/4
Derrick Mckey 15/6
Ordlando Woolridge 12/3
Mark Aguirre 14/4
Jerome Kersey16/8
Pippen 16/7/5
Dominique 26/6.5

I would take each of these guys 2014 "matchup" from the list above. I'll leave it to you to look up their 2014 seasons. Way more depth than the 1990 crew, and Bird/Bron is debatable.
Btw, here are the PPG averages of your role players:

Kawhi Leonard: 12.8
Gordon Hayward: 16.2
Nicholas Batum: 13.0
Trevor Ariza: 14.2
Josh Smith: 16.4
Andre Iguodala: 9.3
Luol Deng: 14.3
Chandler Parsons: 16.6

So why did you post the stats of the 1990 guys as if they are worse????????... they clearly are not.. you didn't think i'd look?

I know why you'd post them - it's just another example of denial and irrational logic to support what you want to believe.

The same logic you use here to say "my guy's 14ppg is better than your guy's 14ppg.... is the same logic used to say "well, he must have used the entire decade of the 90's to come up with these players".... which is the same logic used to say "wow, i didn't know they did that move back then... hmmm... they didn't do it regularly"....

It's all the same kind of denial and irrational logic to support what you want to believe.
.

[iamgine]

Whoever has the edge is not the point. The point is 2014 Ariza and 1990 English are fairly comparable. One is not much better than the other, regardless of whoever you think has the edge.

[Sarcastic]

Whoever has the edge is not the point. The point is 2014 Ariza and 1990 English are fairly comparable. One is not much better than the other, regardless of whoever you think has the edge.


People like yourself have been arguing, for quite some time, that modern wing players are more advanced than their counterparts from yesteryear. When you actually look deeper at it, it's obvious that they are quite even, with 1990s actually being slightly better.

[KobesFinger]

Why are you called 3ball if you hate modern basketball so much? Why aren't you called floorbound or undersized or something?

[3ball]

Whoever has the edge is not the point. The point is 2014 Ariza and 1990 English are fairly comparable. One is not much better than the other, regardless of whoever you think has the edge.
this is that lack of knowledge again.

they don't play anything alike... English was a 26.0% usage player in 1990, while Ariza was a 17.8% usage player - massive difference.

Ariza is a play-finisher (hits 3's... gets assisted for finishes), while English created his own shot as a standard.

English could be a legit 3rd option in 1990, maybe a 2nd option (and in his prime he was an All-NBA #1 option and elite scorer).

You have to understand the massive gap between these two players - English ROUTINELY had between a 6.0 and 9.0 Offensive Win Share (OWS) - this means his offensive contribution was WAAAAY above average (elite) - literally one of the best scorers in the league....

Otoh, Ariza's OWS has been between negative 0.7 and positive 2.5 every year - do you know how much of a gap that is from English's range???... Ariza's OWS in 2014 was 4.3, by far his career high - it was his first year above 2.5 and he's had two seasons with a negative OWS....

The two players are so different, that you can't compare their respective Ortg or OWS because their USAGE is so much different - you can only compare OWS and Ortg to other players in the same usage class.
.

[Lebron23]

All of your posts are agenda driven. and always taking a subtle shot at Lebron. You are a guy who's in his 30's. Stop being a narcissistic prick. If you don't like modern basketball. Build a time machine, and get the F*ck out of this forum.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Yea, Baylor was doing eurosteps in the 60s, Dave Bing too, got Dr J doing it in the 70s, Jordan did it plenty, Magic too, dude in my avatar did it many times... Yet some young, ignorant people will keep on thinking that every move was invented today, that basketball was nothing before... when they don't even know what they're talking about.

Shit, just for you to see, this fool named Chris Palmer, a freaking ESPN writer, was tweeting that crossovers didn't exist in the 1980s and back :facepalm :roll: A ****in crossover! Move where you switch directions/the ball to the opposite hand... And just because dribbling "rules" were stricter, doesn't mean it didn't exist, lmfao. I can post countless footage from players like Tiny Archibald, Michael Jordan, Pete Maravich, Tim Hardaway, Oscar Robertson, Dwayne Washington, Fat Lever, Archie Clark, Magic Johnson, Isiah Thomas, so on, pulling some great crossovers (even without carrying/palming) yet some clueless folks will keep saying dumb shit like that...

[Sakkreth]

Noone says it came from europe. Many players could of done it because they felt like doing it without even thinking if it was done before or not, noone knows who used it first. It's called eurostep because it was popularised by european players.

[3ball]

Yea, Baylor was doing eurosteps in the 60s, Dave Bing too, got Dr J doing it in the 70s, Jordan did it plenty, Magic too, dude in my avatar did it many times... Yet some young, ignorant people will keep on thinking that every move was invented today, that basketball was nothing before... when they don't even know what they're talking about.

Shit, just for you to see, this fool named Chris Palmer, a freaking ESPN writer, was tweeting that crossovers didn't exist in the 1980s and back :facepalm :roll: A ****in crossover! Move where you switch directions/the ball to the opposite hand... And just because dribbling "rules" were stricter, doesn't mean it didn't exist, lmfao. I can post countless footage from players like Tiny Archibald, Michael Jordan, Pete Maravich, Tim Hardaway, Oscar Robertson, Dwayne Washington, Fat Lever, Archie Clark, Magic Johnson, Isiah Thomas, so on, pulling some great crossovers (even without carrying/palming) yet some clueless folks will keep saying dumb shit like that...


The "euro" step was a common move - Elgin looked like he'd done that move 1000 times.. honestly, it only got an actual name when the europeans started doing it.. :confusedshrug:

Regarding the crossover and the basketball ignoramus Chris Palmer, here's Bird doing the "Iverson" crossover (Iverson's is the exaggerated crossover, where he takes an exaggerated step and motion in one direction, and crosses over the other way.... as opposed to the Tim Hardaway crossover, which is a bang-bang double-crossover).

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Larry_Bird_with_the_Modern_Ive_3b4802c1d99d689592f 8fdfa78244708.gif

I credit Iverson for bringing this TYPE of crossover to the mainstream, but it was a common move long before Iverson dropped Jordan with it - it was being done by Bird, MJ, Isiah, guys like Sleepy Floyd used to drop guys with it all the time, and it was being done extensively in the playground (youtube the early AND1 mixtapes with Skip to My Lou, aka rafer alston).
.

[3ball]

It's called eurostep because it was popularised by european players.


Many players did the move, even sub-par, below-average players... it was common move... so why keep saying that the euros popularized it?

Do you think that if you say it enough times it will be true?... I posted 4 euro-steps in the op alone - do you think those are the only euro-steps done?... do any of those moves look like the player was not completely accustomed to doing the move?

Here, let me fix your quote for you....




It's called eurostep because it was only given a name once european players started doing it, long after Elgin Baylor, Dave Bing and Tiny Archibald made it a common move.


It was a common move long before the euro's ever did it, but it only got a name when the euro's started doing it - this is a fact... which is why i said the media and fans are dumb.

The term "euro" step may have introduced you to the move and popularized it for YOU (and the media), but it was already a common move.

[ralph_i_el]

Elgin did the move 60 years ago....

now you want to hit me with what you heard on ESPN about how Sarunas Marciulionis popularized it?

You either haven't been watching basketball for that long, OR, simply don't have the knowledge of the game or recall to understand that guys euro-stepped regularly in previous eras - so just like you and everyone else didn't know that Elgin, MJ, and Magic did the move, you are unaware that ANY decent guard did the move.

Ignorance this significant should be a bannable offense.
.
:sleeping we get it. Everything was better back in the day. Kids didn't sag their pants and a cheeseburger cost a nickel.

[3ball]

:sleeping we get it. Everything was better back in the day. Kids didn't sag their pants and a cheeseburger cost a nickel.
who said anything about things being better??... ignorant response.

the point of the thread is to expose the stupidity of crediting the euros with inventing and/or popularizing a move, when it was a common move decades before they ever started doing it.

by any standard, that makes no sense.

btw, how long do you think kids have been sagging their pants for?
.

[Warfan]

Yo 3ball, what team do you rep?

[3ball]

Yo 3ball, what team do you rep?
they're really unlucky, but i like the thunder because durant's scoring ability is the closest thing I've seen to Jordan's, so i'd like to see a dominant scorer win again (watching dirk was fun)...

durant lacks Jordan's drop-step ability and post game, but he's 6'9" AND a pure shooter, and he's equally devastating as the primary ballhandler (at least in today's spaced game).

once durant learns how to take FULL advantage of his shooting ability via 1) the turnaround jumper and 2) having GO-TO moves for pullup jumpers, which allow him to go alpha-gunner style (using the pull-up as the primary weapon) while maintaining efficiency.

right now he can't go alpha gunner against the best teams without losing efficiency, so he let's westie do it a lot, which is fine, but not as optimal as when Durant is going for 40+.... GO-TO moves for pull-ups and a strong turnaround J and post game (like Pierce and Jordan and Dirk) would help him a ton against dialed-in defenses... then mix in his off-the-dribble game and it's murder.
.

[Lebron23]

they're really unlucky, but i like the thunder because durant's scoring ability is the closest thing I've seen to Jordan's, so i'd like to see a dominant scorer win again (watching dirk was fun)...

durant lacks Jordan's drop-step ability and post game, but he's 6'9" AND a pure shooter, and he's equally devastating as the primary ballhandler (at least in today's spaced game).

once durant learns how to take FULL advantage of his shooting ability via 1) the turnaround jumper and 2) having GO-TO moves for pullup jumpers, which allow him to go alpha-gunner style (using the pull-up as the primary weapon) while maintaining efficiency.

right now he can't go alpha gunner against the best teams without losing efficiency, so he let's westie do it a lot, which is fine, but not as optimal as when Durant is going for 40+.... GO-TO moves for pull-ups like Pierce and Jordan and Dirk had would help him a ton against dialed-in defenses.
.

http://i.imgur.com/LXSNoFb.jpg

[Warfan]

they're really unlucky, but i like the thunder because durant's scoring ability is the closest thing I've seen to Jordan's, so i'd like to see a dominant scorer win again (watching dirk was fun)...

durant lacks Jordan's drop-step ability and post game, but he's 6'9" AND a pure shooter, and he's equally devastating as the primary ballhandler (at least in today's spaced game).

once durant learns how to take FULL advantage of his shooting ability via 1) the turnaround jumper and 2) having GO-TO moves for pullup jumpers, which allow him to go alpha-gunner style (using the pull-up as the primary weapon) while maintaining efficiency.

right now he can't go alpha gunner against the best teams without losing efficiency, so he let's westie do it a lot, which is fine, but not as optimal as when Durant is going for 40+.... GO-TO moves for pull-ups and a strong turnaround J and post game (like Pierce and Jordan and Dirk) would help him a ton against dialed-in defenses... then mix in his off-the-dribble game and it's murder.
.

Man, I figured you were a bulls fan. Im shocked...

[3ball]

thunder are really unlucky the last two years... if ibaka stays healthy, its the thunder blowing out the heat this year... :coleman:

[Lebron23]

thunder are really unlucky the last two years... if ibaka stays healthy, its the thunder blowing out the heat this year... :coleman:


The Thunder no longer have any excuses this year. Ibaka-Durant,and Westbrook are a more experience trio than Lebron, Love and Irving. I'd take the Cavs in 6 games if they meet in the finals.

http://cdn.nextimpulsesports.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/lebron-james-stares-down-mj.gif

[Rake2204]

The "euro" step was a common move - Elgin looked like he'd done that move 1000 times.. honestly, it only got an actual name when the europeans started doing it.. :confusedshrug: I am of the opinion that the Eurostep evolved over the years in a fashion similar to the crossover. I do not believe the Euro was originally as elaborate nor always as planned as much as it was a reaction by a certain selection of players (which does not make them any less effective or worthwhile).

In fact, the gifs included in the original post (as well as a Bob Cousy clip CavaliersFTW provided a few weeks ago) more closely resemble a sidestep maneuver than what we'd now consider a legitimate Euro-step. Sidesteps tend to lean more closely toward "Go straight, slight veer right (if any), then step left."

Having graduated high school in 2002 (right before the modern Euro explosion) those types of sidesteps were, in fact, moves many players knew and enacted. I even had those types of sidesteps in my own arsenal (though the one below is from a tough camera angle). Still, direction changes at the last moment were alive and well before Euros got big.

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-17-2014/VDAmUS.gif

In contrast, the move popularly known as the Eurostep in modern basketball culture regards an elaborate lateral step in one direction, followed by an elaborate lateral step in the opposite direction, not merely a subtly lean or slight stutter in one direction (if any at all). A legitimate, elaborate Euro was a maneuver that was still uncommon enough as of 2003 that many non-NBA players attempting them in games were still being whistled for traveling at that point. Here's an example of the elaborate lateral step necessitated to warrant a dictionary form of the Euro:

http://moneycashsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/james-harden-eurostep-2.gif

As for whether that move was invented or popularized by Europeans, I personally find it relatively negligible. Names are names. No one literally died during Tim Hardaway's Killer Crossover, God Shammgod may have learned his move from someone else, and the sky hook never truly touched the sky.

Even still, let it be clear than an elaborate Euro could have been performed in the 60's at some point (though, similar to the referee-based growing pains it experienced in the 2000's, I imagine it would have struggled back then too) but the idea is it did not reach critical mass until this century, in my opinion. I'm teaching and drilling Eurosteps to my players these days. Even as recently as my senior year (2001-2002) I'm pretty sure we may have laughed my coach out of the gym for trying to drill us in a random move nobody does that may or may not be interpreted as illegal.

[3ball]

The Thunder no longer have any excuses this year. Ibaka-Durant,and Westbrook are a more experience trio than Lebron, Love and Irving. I'd take the Cavs in 6 games if they meet in the finals.

http://cdn.nextimpulsesports.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/lebron-james-stares-down-mj.gif
If Lebron did win, how much props could you really give him in comparison to say, when Dirk won his championship, or when Jordan, Duncan or Bird won theirs?

Lebron got to skip the growth, development, and mentoring stages of a young team into champions - TWICE now, he's gotten to hand-pick his team of experienced, veteran all-stars and skip the tough, early stages that the greats he's compared to did NOT get to skip.

So he simply had to do less to earn his championships in comparison to Dirk, Duncan, MJ and Bird, so they aren't worth as much in my mind, and i think objective historians will look at it the same way.

[Lebron23]

If Lebron did win, how much props could you really give him in comparison to say, when Dirk won his championship, or when Jordan, Duncan or Bird won theirs?

Lebron got to skip the growth, development, and mentoring stages of a young team into champions - TWICE now, he's gotten to hand-pick his team of experienced, veteran all-stars and skip the tough, early stages that the greats he's compared to did NOT get to skip.

So he simply had to do less to earn his championships in comparison to Dirk, Duncan, MJ and Bird, so they aren't worth as much in my mind, and i think objective historians will look at it the same way.

3x NBA Finals MVP. How many NBA players have 3 or more NBA Finals MVP?? Only Duncan, Shaq, Magic, Jordan, and Bill Russell if they were giving the awards pre 1969.

[3ball]

3x NBA Finals MVP. How many NBA players have 3 or more NBA Finals MVP?? Duncan, Shaq, Magic, Jordan, and Bill Russell if they were giving the awards pre 1969.
3 Finals MVP's???

[3ball]

As for whether that move was invented or popularized by Europeans, I personally find it relatively negligible.


25 years from now, it will be called the euro-step and people will think white people invented it... fact... just like rock and roll.

That's the problem with calling it a euro-step.

Actually, that's what happens right now - as i said in the OP, the youtube commenter figured that since the move is called a euro-step, it was invented in europe.... can you blame him??... That is the easiest deduction to make, that almost everyone who hears the term going forward WILL make.

Again, dumb media... dumb fans... nothing new... no offense.

[Lebron23]

3 Finals MVP's???


if the Cavs wins the NBA championship next year. Lebron is going to join the 3 or more finals MVP club which included Duncan, Shaq, Jordan, Magic and Bill Russell if they were giving the awards pre 1969.

Bird only had 2 finals MVP despite playing with a superior team than Lebron's Cavs and Lebron's Heat.

[Warfan]

Also OP is right, 90s fans already knew this. Weak era for fans.

[3ball]

if the Cavs wins the NBA championship next year. Lebron is going to join the 3 or more finals MVP club which included Duncan, Shaq, Jordan, Magic and Bill Russell if they were giving the awards pre 1969.

Bird only had 2 finals MVP despite playing with a superior team than Lebron's Cavs and Lebron's Heat.
that's a great group to be in... the best group..

but he's the only guy in that group to hand-pick his team... and he did it twice... all his rings will be a result of him hand-picking his new team of all-stars... :confusedshrug:

just isn't as impressive as otherwise.

[Lebron23]

that's a great group to be in... the best group..

but he's the only guy in that group to hand-pick his team... and he did it twice... all his rings will be a result of him hand-picking his new team of all-stars... :confusedshrug:

just isn't as impressive as otherwise.


He was a free agent. And Lebron was still the best player of these all stars. what matters is that he won 2 NBA titles, and he was only bad in the 2011 NBA Finals. He was good and great in 2012, 2013, and 2014.

[Rake2204]

25 years from now, it will be called the euro-step and people will think white people invented it... fact... just like rock and roll.

That's the problem with calling it a euro-step.

Actually, that's what happens right now - as i said in the OP, the youtube commenter figured that since the move is called a euro-step, it was invented in europe.... can you blame him??... That is the easiest deduction to make, that almost everyone who hears the term going forward WILL make.

Again, dumb media... dumb fans... nothing new... no offense.No offense taken. With honest respect, what does it matter, going forward, if the masses misinterpret the origin of the Euro-step? Someone mentioned the hamburger earlier in this thread and I found that intriguing enough to research, and its true origins are, in fact, unknown. There's a good chance it did start in Hamburg. But does that affect the hamburger itself?

That said, let us jump ahead a little and conclude that, for whatever reason, the origin of the move is very important. Can we first establish a standard definition of the Euro-step? Are we using the term Euro-step to define any sort of hesitation after one picks up their dribble? Is it in reference to any sort of direction alteration? Any sort of two-step?

As I mentioned in my previous post, my definition of a Euro-step is an elaborate lateral step in one direction followed by an elaborate step in the opposition direction. Two-stepping and side stepping is something I had extensive knowledge of while playing in high school. All four of the gifs in your original post are plays for which I was very familiar in 2002 and I do not deem them to be Euro-steps due to the absence of an elaborate lateral first step.

In contrast, I have seen singular footage of Julius Erving and Archie Clark performing moves that come much closer to what I define to be Euro-steps. The question there then becomes, were those moves planned or did they just happen randomly by accident? And does it even matter if they were planned?

I don't know if I have an answer to the last question. I guess on one hand, if a Euro happened, it happened. But on the other hand, if it was just a complete accident or something that occurred randomly after a player had picked up his dribble and realized he didn't have a plan, it might feel a little less official. Perhaps that's how moves are made though. Maybe the world's first crossover was a guy who accidentally lost control of the ball and had to tap it with his left hand one time before he could continue dribbling with his right.

Separately, just because we've seen footage of older American players executing a Euro (accidental or otherwise), does that mean they invented the move? Could there not have been a European who pre-dated those fellers by completing the move even earlier? With that in mind, is it always prudent to name a basketball move after the very first person to execute it? Or might move names often be a case of developing based upon those who popularize the plays (or for another reason altogether)?

I cannot speak for your playing experience (or anyone else's). But as someone who was living the game at the turn of the century (and well before, and well after) I can say the Eurostep was not a move that was a part of our collective basketball lexicon in the year 2000. Sidesteps, yes. Stutters, yes. One-two steps, yes. The double elaborate lateral opposite steps? We may have seen that happen randomly sometime if we watched closely (and we probably assumed that player got away with a travel), but we didn't see it as being something to replicate and we didn't really know what we were seeing, let alone drilling in it. Even Sarunas' abuse of the move was more or less forgotten, written off as a Sarunas-ism or never seen to begin with by the vast basketball playing world.

I did not see the Eurostep purposely and regularly executed on the hardwood until the likes of Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili and company began abusing it in the early 2000's. They may have not been the first to execute the maneuver, but I believe they're responsible for its explosion and its place as a reliable and standard move in today's game. Therefore, a name that alludes a foreign-based popularization is one for which I do not object.

[unbreakable]

this nig.ga just compared KAWHI LEONARD FINALS MVP to hayword and ariza?
LMAO

FOH clown

[AlphaWolf24]

The double elaborate lateral opposite steps? We may have seen that happen randomly sometime if we watched closely (and we probably assumed that player got away with a travel), but we didn't see it as being something to replicate and we didn't really know what we were seeing, let alone drilling in it. Even Sarunas' abuse of the move was more or less forgotten, written off as a Sarunas-ism or never seen to begin with by the vast basketball playing world.

I did not see the Eurostep purposely and regularly executed on the hardwood until the likes of Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili and company began abusing it in the early 2000's. They may have not been the first to execute the maneuver, but I believe they're responsible for its explosion and its place as a reliable and standard move in today's game. Therefore, a name that alludes a foreign-based popularization is one for which I do not object.

Agree......the 1 - 2 step or Euro step became much more popular after the 2000's when Parker,Manu , B diddy,Nash , etc started to use so effectively...


I remember watching Sarunas Marciulionis ( we just called him Rooney in the Bay area) use it alot.....but his game was so wild and herky jerky he looked out of control when he did it....almost like he just did it in the heat of the moment to get past his defender....

In fact I clearly remember Jim Barnett call it the " Herky Jerk" move every time Rooney barreled in the lane...

[iznogood]

It is called euro-step because it resembles the footwork of the early baroque dance sarabande, everybody knows that in Europe. It is also said that the italian basketball players performed this move as early as 1860 and many argue it happened even earlier.

[SHAQisGOAT]

The "euro" step was a common move - Elgin looked like he'd done that move 1000 times.. honestly, it only got an actual name when the europeans started doing it.. :confusedshrug:

Regarding the crossover and the basketball ignoramus Chris Palmer, here's Bird doing the "Iverson" crossover (Iverson's is the exaggerated crossover, where he takes an exaggerated step and motion in one direction, and crosses over the other way.... as opposed to the Tim Hardaway crossover, which is a bang-bang double-crossover).

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Larry_Bird_with_the_Modern_Ive_3b4802c1d99d689592f 8fdfa78244708.gif

I credit Iverson for bringing this TYPE of crossover to the mainstream, but it was a common move long before Iverson dropped Jordan with it - it was being done by Bird, MJ, Isiah, guys like Sleepy Floyd used to drop guys with it all the time, and it was being done extensively in the playground (youtube the early AND1 mixtapes with Skip to My Lou, aka rafer alston).
.

Well said.

I forgot about Sleepy, dude had some great handles and a clean, mean crossover (I remember him even crossing Michael Cooper and such), underrated.

Dream-shake was named due to Hakeem and it was long used before him, you got people talking about the Rondo fake and such, Pistol Pete was doing all of that on the regular, as a matter of fact, that dude was playing college ball in the 60's: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfWkiO2Iz08

Shit, I've seen a video posted by the NBA, called 'who has the best floater?' or something, and they talked about it being a new move :rolleyes: Even Doc Rivers said something along those lines which left me stunned because he played against the likes of Larry Bird or Gus Williams, players that had some of the best floaters ever... He said that you'd get dropped on your back if you tried something like that, and he has a certain point but plenty of people did it (very well9 and it's been around for a LONG time.
Bird's floaters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFeM6VnUK_Y

Then you got some people thinking all those moves were invented only yesterday or something :facepalm

[Rake2204]

Well said.

I forgot about Sleepy, dude had some great handles and a clean, mean crossover (I remember him even crossing Michael Cooper and such), underrated.

Dream-shake was named due to Hakeem and it was long used before him, you got people talking about the Rondo fake and such, Pistol Pete was doing all of that on the regular, as a matter of fact, that dude was playing college ball in the 60's: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfWkiO2Iz08

Shit, I've seen a video posted by the NBA, called 'who has the best floater?' or something, and they talked about it being a new move :rolleyes: Even Doc Rivers said something along those lines which left me stunned because he played against the likes of Larry Bird or Gus Williams, players that had some of the best floaters ever... He said that you'd get dropped on your back if you tried something like that, and he has a certain point but plenty of people did it (very well9 and it's been around for a LONG time.
Bird's floaters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFeM6VnUK_Y

Then you got some people thinking all those moves were invented only yesterday or something :facepalm I think there might be a misunderstanding between invention, evolution, and prominence here. I would have to see a link to Rivers' thoughts on the floater but I have difficulty believing he flatly insisted that anyone attempting a floater would be put on one's back in his day.

The floater's been around and readily used for as long as I've been alive and watching basketball (born in '84). My guess is it's been a shot that's been around for nearly as long as the game itself since it's a pretty straight-forward maneuver (at its core, it's about shooting a shot higher).

That said, growing up, the floater tended to be treated by many as a very situational shot, to be used only when the time was absolute right, which was not terribly often (though it depends upon one's definition of "terribly often"). It seemed like it was largely reserved for when a smaller player had little other choice than to try to arc it over a looming defender (unless you're just crafty like Larry).

Again within the last ten years or so, I feel as though I've noticed a slight shift toward pre-emptive floaters. Some guards (Mike Conley Jr. comes to mind) seem to have employed the floater as a frequent preventative measure as opposed to being reactionary. I have memories of guys like Mookie Blaylock driving, coming across Dikembe Mutombo and seemingly being like, "Oh shoot, I may need to break out a float piece." Whereas now, it seems like some players more frequently go the route of, "If I get to the 13 feet mark in the lane, I'm about to drop this floater, just in case anyone gets any ideas."

I also feel more people have treated them as perfectable shots. There used to be something kitschy about the floater. Attempted by many, mastered by few. It feels slightly more mainstream now, though not with as drastic a difference as there has been with Eurosteps between then & now.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Bird only had 2 finals MVP despite playing with a superior team than Lebron's Cavs and Lebron's Heat.


:roll: You LeBron stans kill me... James, in his prime, joined two top10 players in the league (one top3/5) and wasn't able to win in his first year, plus didn't win more than two titles before "quitting", playing in a weak-ass conference tbh.
On the other hand, Bird was drafted to a "dying" franchise with the 2nd worst record in the league, then he quickly turned them around and led them to a championship in only his 2nd year, with Cedric Maxwell (never all-nba, never all-star) and Robert Parish (already 27 when he joined the C's, wasn't viewed as all that, only all-nba and all-star playing alongside Bird, wouldn't have been a HoF'er had he stayed with the Warriors) as his best teammates...

And that 1981 FMVP belongs to Larry in my book, especially considering other FMVP's in history. Cornbread was better and more consistent with his scoring but not by all that and Bird was far ahead in terms of rebounding, playmaking and defense, and he came up big and clutch in the decisive game6.
Plus, people forget who was the big factor in overcoming a 3-1 deficit in the "real" Finals, against the best team the Celtics faced that year, the one who outplayed the standing MVP head-to-head... Yea, it was Larry.

When his teammates were underperforming in the 1984 post-season, Bird led the way to the championship, leading the team in points, assists, rebounds, steals, FG% and FT%, think of how crazy his that :eek: McHale and Parish didn't even average more than 15 PPG and both combined were shooting around 49%. And they faced the mighty stacked, showtime Lakers in the Finals. Talk about that.

And look at the top players in the league Bird was "facing", tons of all-time greats, stacked with terrific SF's. Look at the team the Celtics were facing, lots of super stacked teams, dynasties, some of the best teams ever... LeBron ain't ****ing with that lmfao.

Bird instantly turned a "dying" franchise around, building from the ground up, leading them to 3 titles in the process, winning 3 MVP's, in the toughest conference ever, most stacked era... And he gave everything for that franchise, staying through thick and thin, playing when he shouldn't have been playing, retiring without cashing up because he was just that type of man.

Read and think about all of that, slowly take the ether.

But keep saying stupid shit like "playing with a superior team than Lebron's Cavs and Lebron's Heat" :facepalm You're clueless :oldlol: Get real, son.

[Lebron23]

:roll: You LeBron stans kill me... James, in his prime, joined two top10 players in the league (one top3/5) and wasn't able to win in his first year, plus didn't win more than two titles before "quitting", playing in a weak-ass conference tbh.
On the other hand, Bird was drafted to a "dying" franchise with the 2nd worst record in the league, then he quickly turned them around and led them to a championship in only his 2nd year, with Cedric Maxwell (never all-nba, never all-star) and Robert Parish (already 27 when he joined the C's, wasn't viewed as all that, only all-nba and all-star playing alongside Bird, wouldn't have been a HoF'er had he stayed with the Warriors) as his best teammates...

And that 1981 FMVP belongs to Larry in my book, especially considering other FMVP's in history. Cornbread was better and more consistent with his scoring but not by all that and Bird was far ahead in terms of rebounding, playmaking and defense, and he came up big and clutch in the decisive game6.
Plus, people forget who was the big factor in overcoming a 3-1 deficit in the "real" Finals, against the best team the Celtics faced that year, the one who outplayed the standing MVP head-to-head... Yea, it was Larry.

When his teammates were underperforming in the 1984 post-season, Bird led the way to the championship, leading the team in points, assists, rebounds, steals, FG% and FT%, think of how crazy his that :eek: McHale and Parish didn't even average more than 15 PPG and both combined were shooting around 49%. And they faced the mighty stacked, showtime Lakers in the Finals. Talk about that.

And look at the top players in the league Bird was "facing", tons of all-time greats, stacked with terrific SF's. Look at the team the Celtics were facing, lots of super stacked teams, dynasties, some of the best teams ever... LeBron ain't ****ing with that lmfao.

Bird instantly turned a "dying" franchise around, building from the ground up, leading them to 3 titles in the process, winning 3 MVP's, in the toughest conference ever, most stacked era... And he gave everything for that franchise, staying through thick and thin, playing when he shouldn't have been playing, retiring without cashing up because he was just that type of man.

Read and think about all of that, slowly take the ether.

But keep saying stupid shit like "playing with a superior team than Lebron's Cavs and Lebron's Heat" :facepalm You're clueless :oldlol: Get real, son.



I don't think so. Maxwell right fully deserved his first finals MVP. Bird had back to back 8 points game while Maxwell was consistent offensively. And Lebron is the GOAT small forward. Just like Bird's teammates in the 1984 NBA Finals. Lebron's teammates in the 2013 NBA Finals were so very inconsistent in the whole playoffs.

Lebron already scored more points than Bird in the regular season and playoffs, same numbers of finals MVP, have more more MVP than Larry, and with his longevity this is no longer a close comparison in a couple of years.

LBJ also had better stats than Bird from regular season, to the playoffs, to the NBA Finals.

[nathanjizzle]

nah man, those are more like side steps. eurostep is more audacious with the first step. its a full first step then a full second step in the other direction.

[navy]

nah man, those are more like side steps. eurostep is more audacious with the first step. its a full first step then a full second step in the other direction.

Shhh.....

Doesn't fit with his agenda.

[SHAQisGOAT]

I think there might be a misunderstanding between invention, evolution, and prominence here. I would have to see a link to Rivers' thoughts on the floater but I have difficulty believing he flatly insisted that anyone attempting a floater would be put on one's back in his day.

The floater's been around and readily used for as long as I've been alive and watching basketball (born in '84). My guess is it's been a shot that's been around for nearly as long as the game itself since it's a pretty straight-forward maneuver (at its core, it's about shooting a shot higher).

That said, growing up, the floater tended to be treated by many as a very situational shot, to be used only when the time was absolute right, which was not terribly often (though it depends upon one's definition of "terribly often"). It seemed like it was largely reserved for when a smaller player had little other choice than to try to arc it over a looming defender (unless you're just crafty like Larry).

Again within the last ten years or so, I feel as though I've noticed a slight shift toward pre-emptive floaters. Some guards (Mike Conley Jr. comes to mind) seem to have employed the floater as a frequent preventative measure as opposed to being reactionary. I have memories of guys like Mookie Blaylock driving, coming across Dikembe Mutombo and seemingly being like, "Oh shoot, I may need to break out a float piece." Whereas now, it seems like some players more frequently go the route of, "If I get to the 13 feet mark in the lane, I'm about to drop this floater, just in case anyone gets any ideas."

I also feel more people have treated them as perfectable shots. There used to be something kitschy about the floater. Attempted by many, mastered by few. It feels slightly more mainstream now, though not with as drastic a difference as there has been with Eurosteps between then & now.

"That's a new shot, every generation has a different shot. If you took a floater, when I played, you would've been taken out." - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqdOPAlI4iM&t=0m9s

I see your point, there's more players doing it today and more as a reactionary move... but you still had plenty of "that" back in the day, and players like Larry Bird or Gus Williams easily used it as a reactionary move, lots of times, having some of the best floaters ever. You can see Magic, Pistol Pete, Isiah, Gervin, so on, hit some terrific floaters, more than now and then.

Then you got people thinking stuff like that (and many more) was only invented today or something. Shit, even Doc Rivers, who was playing against some of those guys I've mentioned, said something along those lines... I've probably seen him hit floaters himself, lmfao. He has a somewhat of a point with the taken out thing, but still...

[Rake2204]

"That's a new shot, every generation has a different shot. If you took a floater, when I played, you would've been taken out." - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqdOPAlI4iM&t=0m9s

I see your point, there's more players doing it today and more as a reactionary move... but you still had plenty of "that" back in the day, and players like Larry Bird or Gus Williams easily used it as a reactionary move, lots of times, having some of the best floaters ever. You can see Magic, Pistol Pete, Isiah, Gervin, so on, hit some terrific floaters, more than now and then.

Then you got people thinking stuff like that (and many more) was only invented today or something. Shit, even Doc Rivers, who was playing against some of those guys I've mentioned, said something along those lines... I've probably seen him hit floaters himself, lmfao. He has a somewhat of a point with the taken out thing, but still...I appreciate the link. Interesting line from Rivers. I hate to try to deconstruct what former players are saying, but I wonder if by "taken out" he may have meant "subbed out" for taking a stupid shot. As you said, I think it's very likely Rivers probably pulled off a number of floaters himself over the course of his career, but maybe he just meant back then they weren't used nearly as frequently.

But again, I think we're on a similar page here. I think the floater was more of a "back pocket" play in years past, for when crafty and skilled players had to dig into their bag of tricks. It's become a bit more standardized over the last decade or so, becoming more of a typical play than being an occasional showcase of craft.

It's actually created a slight conflict for me as a player and coach. At the turn of the century, nearly everyone seemed to understand that most running floaters were usually going to be random and not very high percentage (in comparison to a pull up J or strong attack of the hoop). As such, I didn't get a lot people questioning why they weren't allowed to throw one up to the sky and pray on their drives to the hoop.

With the floater's rise to prominence, I've come across a lot more younger players who've opted to eschew strong attacks to the hoop in favor of settling for a floater attempt. It took years to get that out of my younger brother's system. Kind of off topic, but I feel the floater has a much more significant use for small players shooting over NBA seven footers than it does for small players going up against midwest high school sized 6'4'' big men. Whereas I've embraced the Euro-step as almost always being an incredible tool to utilize with regularity, I've pushed back against the floater a little, except for the already skilled players looking to add another wrinkle to their games.

[Akhenaten]

Op none of those gifs you posted are eurosteps though, the eurostep is a very pronounced step in one direction and a very pronounced step in the other.

Also, the euro-step is a very premeditated move, the gifs you posted are more instinctive moves by a player looking to avoid obstruction.

NOt sure what point your thread is even trying to make.

[3ball]

Op none of those gifs you posted are eurosteps though, the eurostep is a very pronounced step in one direction and a very pronounced step in the other.

Also, the euro-step is a very premeditated move, the gifs you posted are more instinctive moves by a player looking to avoid obstruction.

NOt sure what point your thread is even trying to make.
I love how people like to act dumb... "Not sure the point you are even trying to make"... as if you can't read.. you sound unnecessarily defensive.

I posted 4 "euro" steps, one of which was done by Elgin Baylor 50 years before the term came about and he did it more comfortably and relaxed than when today's players do it.

It's a fact that the move was common long before the euro's started doing it, so it's dumb to call it a euro-step.. If that makes you uncomfortable, too bad.
.

[Rake2204]

I posted 4 "euro" steps, one of which was done by Elgin Baylor 50 years before the term came about and he did it more comfortably and relaxed than when today's players do it.

It's a fact that the move was common long before the euro's started doing it, so it's dumb to call it a euro-step.. If that makes you uncomfortable, too bad.
.Regarding your first paragraph, I am uncertain I'd declare any of the four gifs provided in your original post as being legitimate Eurosteps (if those are the clips for which you are referencing). As previously alluded, they have much more in common and more closely resemble a relatively standard sidestep.

The difference between a sidestep and a Eurostep is that a Eurostep includes an elaborate lateral step in one direction before stepping in the opposite direction immediately thereafter. Sidesteps tended to involve little to no initial lateral movement with the first step. As showcased in the four gifs in the original post, that move usually consisted of running straight, then more or less cutting in another direction. Whereas, the Euro is a straight run, followed by a strong cut (or suggested cut) followed by an opposite cut.

Regarding your second paragraph, even though I feel the gifs in the original post do not match the definition of a Eurostep, I do believe Eurosteps existed and were executed prior to their takeoff in the 2000's. However, I would not label them as being common, though I suppose it depends upon one's definition of the word "common".

In fact, as mentioned before, I believe there's a good chance the phrase "Eurostep" gained traction because of the manner with which foreign-born players legitimized the move and fully integrated it into the basketball consciousness. And, at the risk of sounding repetitious, sometimes that's how monikers are developed. They do not always seem to follow the absolute origin. Calling it the Archie Clark might not be any more accurate anyhow. Alexander Moiseev may have well pulled off the maneuver during EuroBasket 1947 for all we know. And Tim Hardaway's UTEP 2-Step wasn't invented in Texas. Point being, sometimes move nicknames have other meanings or labels aside from simply pointing to absolute origin.

[3ball]

Regarding your first paragraph, I am uncertain I'd declare any of the four gifs provided in your original post as being legitimate Eurosteps (if those are the clips for which you are referencing). As previously alluded, they have much more in common and more closely resemble a relatively standard sidestep.

The difference between a sidestep and a Eurostep is that a Eurostep includes an elaborate lateral step in one direction before stepping in the opposite direction immediately thereafter.

Regarding your second paragraph, even though I feel the gifs in the original post do not match the definition of a Eurostep, I do believe Eurosteps existed and were executed prior to their takeoff in the 2000's. However, I would not label them as being common, though I suppose it depends upon one's definition of the word "common".


I'm a former Division I player at two universities and have played against many NBA players.... Do NOT try to convince me there is a new term called the "sidestep".. that's BS and proves to any reader of your post that you are inventing things to put forth your argument.

There are many comments under the youtube clip saying how Elgin Baylor's "euro" step looks exactly like today's players and how he does it so comfortably and effectively.

So other people think he's exaggerating his step just fine... you have a problem with it and want to invent names that don't exist because you want to believe the euros made the move common, when the fact that Elgin was doing it comfortably 50 years before them means it was already a common move.


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/7f599bc9f590bcb726a21b83083d94f5.gif

[Rake2204]

I'm a former Division I player at two universities and have played against many NBA players.... Do NOT try to convince me there is a new term called the "sidestep".. that's BS and proves to any reader of your post that you are inventing things to put forth your argument.Please allow me to clarify. The sidestep was in reference to an action, with the name of the term or its acknowledgement being relatively unimportant, except for its insistence of what it isn't - a Eurostep.

When I performed the moves shown in the original post in the year 2002 and prior, I was not executing an exact maneuver that I'd labeled and been drilled in during practice. It was just an unnamed response in the heat of the moment. I'd lead with a live dribble in one direction to get my defender to square his shoulders, then I'd side step or dip under their shoulder (sometimes with a preceding shimmy). I didn't name it, but the action was a subtle understep or sidestep, similar to the original post.

When the Eurostep hit the mainstream in the early 2000's on the heels of guys like Manu & Tony popularizing and normalizing a move that had, in fact, been executed well before their arrival, I began to implement that move into my game as well. Its execution was similar, but at the same time varied greatly from the aforementioned side-stepping action maneuver above. The essence of a Euro-step is the exaggerated first step lateral step to the right.

In fact, as the true Eurostep began taking off in the early 2000's, I witnessed a fair share of growing pains, both as a player and coach, as some amateur officials struggled to come to terms with the acknowledgement that it was a legal play. The exaggerated, sometimes herky-jerky lateral first step of a Euro (not seen in those gifs in the original post) looked unnatural enough to many to warrant a traveling call, even if the move were, in fact, legal. As the Euro fully ingrained itself into all of basketball society, the widespread understanding of its legality prevailed. But surely, the move popularized in the 2000's differed from many of the gifs being mislabeled as Euro's in this thread (not including Erving & Clark).


There are many comments under the youtube clip saying how Elgin Baylor's "euro" step looks exactly like today's players and how he does it so comfortably and effectively.

So other people think he's exaggerating his step just fine... you have a problem with it and want to invent names that don't exist because you want to believe the euros made the move common, when the fact that Elgin was doing it comfortably 50 years before them means it was already a common move.YouTube users are more than welcomed to their opinion, for better or worse, just as is the case for you and I. However, substance does not always tend to be YouTube comment's strong suit (whether folks were labeling it a Euro or not).

Separately, I believe it has become important to define what we mean by "common". I do not believe it is at all far-fetched to assume the Eurostep, by definition, had occurred over history. Even if I feel the particular Baylor clip included more closely resembled a stutter-to-sidestep, it would not blow my mind if a legit Baylor Euro clip popped up somewhere (just like Julius Erving's clip).

That said, I personally do not feel the mere existence of such a move thereby makes it common. Again, even when Sarunas Marciulionis began spamming the Euro in the 90's, it still did not exactly catch on amongst the general playing public. It was looked at more as a Sarunas idiosyncrasy. "Common", for me, came when the move became more than just one or a handful of player's rare situational move, when coaches began teaching the move in practice, and when it became a maneuver a very large percentage of basketball participants readily acknowledged and was perhaps even capable of executing.

To put it another way, if one were to tell a college ballplayer to execute a Eurostep in 1998, first they likely would not understand what they were being asked to do. That's fair, because the argument here is the Euro label was wrongly given in the 2000's. Still, had that '98 ball player been given a clip of 2003 Manu and asked to replicate the Manu Euro shown, I trust it would have been an unusual endeavor for most. They could surely replicate in a variable amount of time, but I do not believe there'd be a response of, "Oh, yeah. Everybody does that move all the time. No Problem." Again, subtly side-stepping opponents was a thing that happened naturally (not naming it a side-step, but describing the action) but I maintain the elaborate steps and herky nature of the Euro did not become "common" until the 2000's.

Either way, the original dispute here seems to come forth from the move being labeled a Eurostep, perhaps suggesting a player of European descent invented the move, when players like Baylor could be argued to have performed the move much earlier than the likes of Sarunas, yes? If so, could we be so sure that someone did not also pre-date Elgin's use? And that person could have been European himself? Above all else, as asked numerous times before, must moves always be named after their absolute accurate origins? The UTEP Two-Step, again, did not come from Texas but it was a catchy name and it worked. And maybe God got his "Shammgod" cross from some contemporaries in NYC and just gave it the stage it needed to go big. Or maybe not. But the point remains, move names do not always reference originators and I do not believe they need to.

[3ball]

When the Eurostep hit the mainstream in the early 2000's on the heels of guys like Manu & Tony popularizing and normalizing a move



Why is your mind so addicted to the notion that the move was somehow made common by the euros???.. It clearly was not..


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/5c89bc378182f5bddc5916df977cad29.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/9a0666804b32d5b4824561aad788cb8e.gif


It was a common move even done by sub-par players long before the euro's ever did it, but it only got a name when the euro's started doing it - this is a fact... which is why i said the media and fans are dumb for giving the move that name.

[Rake2204]

Why is your mind so addicted to the notion that the move was somehow made common by the euros???.. It clearly was not..


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/5c89bc378182f5bddc5916df977cad29.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/9a0666804b32d5b4824561aad788cb8e.gif


It was a common move even done by sub-par players long before the euro's ever did it, but it only got a name when the euro's started doing it - this is a fact... which is why i said the media and fans are dumb for giving the move that name.I will will repeat a line from my previous post for emphasis:
I believe it has become important to define what we mean by "common". I do not believe it is at all far-fetched to assume the Eurostep, by definition, had occurred over history.
What is your definition of common? I stated mine in my last post. Does your definition differ from my own? I feel players had surely executed the Eurostep over the course of basketball history, but the move itself only exploded and became common in the early 2000's. Being a move that some select players did some of the time (perhaps without planning and instead just reacting - which is admirable) gives the impression that the move was rare and, in fact, uncommon.

[3ball]

What is your definition of common? I feel like players surely executed the move over the course of basketball history, but the move itself only exploded and became common in the early 2000's.


You've got egg on your face from all the GIF's showing even no-name players doing the move back in the 50's and 60's..

It has been a common move, so even the lack of footage from those eras can't prevent someone from finding numerous examples of the move being done.




Being a move that some select players did some of the time (perhaps without planning and instead just reacting - which is admirable)..


You are giving previous era players too much credit for doing it instinctively - today's players do it instinctively too... Any move that has been practiced and made a habit becomes instinct... that's how sports that require instant reactions work... You should try to play one someday.

It's always interesting though - Dave Bing clearly does pre-plan this move...

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/9a0666804b32d5b4824561aad788cb8e.gif

[Rake2204]

You've got egg on your face from all the GIF's showing even no-name players doing the move back in the 50's and 60's..

It has been a common move, so even the lack of footage from those eras can't prevent someone from finding numerous examples of the move being done.

You are giving previous era players too much credit for doing it instinctively - today's players do it instinctively too... Any move that has been practiced and made a habit becomes instinct... that's how sports that require instant reactions work... You should try to play one someday.

It's always interesting though - Dave Bing clearly does pre-plan this move...

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/9a0666804b32d5b4824561aad788cb8e.gifWith respect, I cannot help but get the feeling you are dodging very direct questions. I will attempt to be even more succinct.

1) What is your definition of "common"? Does it differ from my own definition cited in post #67?

2) What is your definition of a Eurostep? For you, does it necessitate an elaborate lateral first step?

3) What was the Eurostep called before the name was bestowed upon the maneuver within the last 20 years?

4) What should the Eurostep be called, in your opinion?

5) Should all other moves that do not precisely represent the action being performed or its absolute originator, subsequently be renamed?

[3ball]

With respect, I cannot help but get the feeling you are dodging very direct questions. I will attempt to be even more succinct.

1) What is your definition of "common"? Does it differ from my own definition cited in post #67?

2) What is your definition of a Eurostep? For you, does it necessitate an elaborate lateral first step?

3) What was the Eurostep called before the name was bestowed upon the maneuver within the last 20 years?

4) What should the Eurostep be called, in your opinion?

5) Should all other moves that do not precisely represent the action being performed or its absolute originator, subsequently be renamed?
You really expect me to answer each of your requests for additional clarity one by one when the evidence is staring at you right in the face?

:biggums:

The move was quite common decades before the euros ever did it.. that should be obvious.. If you can't get that by now, no explanation from me is going to help you.

[Rake2204]

You really expect me to answer each of your requests for additional clarity one by one when the evidence is staring at you right in the face?

:biggums:

The move was quite common decades before the euros ever did it.. that should be obvious.. If you can't get that by now, no explanation from me is going to help you.Unfortunately, it appears as if you either 1) do not wish to discuss this topic in a reasonable manner, 2) do not understand the questions being posed 3) do not have answers to those questions that would not potentially compromise your original stance or 4) all of the above.

As such, I shall remain interested in this thread but I wonder if there is really any other place to go here. It is difficult to label the Eurostep as being common if we have differing opinions of what it means for something to be common. Since I have attempted on numerous occasions to have you either confirm and agree with my definition of "common", or otherwise provide your own definition, and you have failed to even oblige in that regard, your stance on this matter, at the very moment, does not appear to hold much weight.

That said, I believe there is room for understanding and clarification here, but it would require a two-way street. I feel the five questions provided (which I will post below once more, to keep up with the thread) could incite some meaningful dialogue on this matter.

1) What is your definition of "common"? Does it differ from my own definition cited in post #67?

2) What is your definition of a Eurostep? For you, does it necessitate an elaborate lateral first step?

3) What was the Eurostep called before the name was bestowed upon the maneuver within the last 20 years?

4) What should the Eurostep be called, in your opinion?

5) Should all other moves that do not precisely represent the action being performed or its absolute originator, subsequently be renamed?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Rake hitting the nail on the head. Looking for further clarity and answers should always be welcomed. Refusing to do so really means you're all about thought control. That's troll-ish behavior.

[3ball]

I've proven the euro-step was a common move long decades before the euros started doing it, thus proving how stupid it is to call the move a "euro" step...

and that's all i set out to do.

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/5c89bc378182f5bddc5916df977cad29.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Magic_Johnson_Eurostep_88016c2ae6879878e978634fe79 5130f.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/9a0666804b32d5b4824561aad788cb8e.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Michael_Jordan_Eurostep_5cc9d1bfc6064cfecf8deaef00 3568c2.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Michael_Jordan_Doing_Eurostep_1131c3189b6e3424c21a 5ee6e71b4415.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/7f599bc9f590bcb726a21b83083d94f5.gif

[3ball]

Looking for further clarity and answers should always be welcomed. Refusing to do so really means you're all about thought control. That's troll-ish behavior.


I've proven that the euro-step was a common move literally decades before the euros started doing it.

No need to waste anymore time arguing with nascent fans whose mind is addicted notions about the game that have proven to be misguided and erroneous... :facepalm

[Akhenaten]

3ball you have yet to post a SINGLE eurostep in this thread
the eurostep is a pre-determined move, the offensive player in a very deliberate manner FAKES one direction with a hard step SELLING to the defender that he is going in that direction.

Nothing you have posted fits that description

THIS is a Eurostep

http://images.complex.com/complex/image/upload/t_article_image/sobfg68fru7ns7z89mac.gif

Notice Wade's first step is out very WIDE, to the point where he literally turns KG inside out because he was convinced he was going right.

again

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/2-04-2014/tgjadN.gif

Note the hard very elongated first step, he was selling hard that he was going right. Its such a deliberate and common move especially for Wade that the defender while respecting the sell never completely bites.

those gifs you posted are NOT eurosteps, your argument is rejected

[3ball]

those gifs you posted are NOT eurosteps


You are right - the moves I posted are "Elgin-Steps", just like all the moves you posted are ALSO Elgin-Steps...

There is no such thing as a Euro-Step.. but keep calling it that if you want... :facepalm:

Enlightenment itt..

#realtalk

[SHAQisGOAT]

You are right - the moves I posted are "Elgin-Steps", just like all the moves you posted are ALSO Elgin-Steps...

There is no such thing as a Euro-Step.. but keep calling it that if you want... :facepalm:

Enlightenment itt..

#realtalk

Some dudes seriously arguing that those weren't "eurosteps"? :biggums:
Talking about he has to have his foot like this and so on :oldlol: Those are clearly "eurosteps"... can't all look exactly the same, next thing you know Dirk's fadeaway is not a fadeaway because it's different and whatnot, a crossover is only a crossover if it's done like AI (who carried many times) :rolleyes:
Not even discussing how it should be called but the move has been used since way, way back... some people need to stop hating :facepalm

BTW, here's the man in my avatar doing it too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zN0ruk2SJ2Q&t=5m45s
Also, Darryl Dawkins before and Jordan after, but not as "pronnounced" as Sid's.

[Akhenaten]

You are right - the moves I posted are "Elgin-Steps"


i'm fine with that, you are acknowledging that it is clearly a different move from what guys like Wade, Ginobli and Harden are famous for.

I can live with that.

[3ball]

i'm fine with that, so you are not acknowledging that it is clearly the same move that guys like Wade, Ginobli and Harden are famous for.. it's the same move

I can live with that.


Yes, I said that they are ALL Elgin-Steps... Everything you posted and everything I posted are all the same move - they are all Elgin-Steps because the term euro-step is a misstatement of history and therefore dumb and nonsensical.

Your attempts to twist my words only reveal how unsettling the new facts you've learned itt must be for you.

That is all.

[tgan3]

Eurostep still sounds better than Americastep or USAstep

[oarabbus]

i'm fine with that, you are acknowledging that it is clearly a different move from what guys like Wade, Ginobli and Harden are famous for.

I can live with that.

No, he's saying the GIFs you posted aree "Elgin-Steps" as opposed to eurosteps, and that it is the same move than Wade/Gino/harden