Does James Harden

[Mr Exlax]

Sadly I kinda agree with this article. He still has to show consistent effort, but they say it in this article too.

http://houseofhouston.com/2014/09/17/james-hardens-defense-make-less-star/

[QUOTE]
Team USA has finished up the World Cup, won gold and by all accounts the coaching staff was thrilled with the play, defense and leadership that they got from*James Harden. However, for some reason Harden has become a player that many seemingly just wait for the next opportunity to pile on about his defensive play.

I

[Lebron23]

I think he can still improve defensively. Defense is all about effort. He just needs to be a more consistent playoffs performer, and stop relying on his free throws attempts per game because in the playoffs the refs rarely blow the whistles.

[Mr Exlax]

I think he can still improve defensively. Defense is all about effort. He just needs to be a more consistent playoffs performer, and stop relying on his free throws attempts per game because in the playoffs the refs are sometimes strict on blowing the whistles.

He's really not bad when he tries. He just has to be consistent with the effort though.

His scoring in the playoffs I agree. I know he can score in more ways than just fishing for fouls. Hopefully he understands it now.

[russwest0]

who cares what label he will be given from the masses

he's been basically a net negative in the playoffs these past two years. Houston may have actually escaped the first round with non-"star" Afflalo in Harden's place.

I don't know why more Houston fans don't just accept Harden for what he is.

I guess I just don't follow Houston sports enough to know why those fans would be in such a position where they feel the need to defend Harden when he is clearly a flawed "star" in that he's going to demand the touches of a star (which is why he left OKC), but he's not going to have an impact to ever escape the second round as one.

[Mr Exlax]

who cares what label he will be given from the masses

he's been basically a net negative in the playoffs these past two years. Houston may have actually escaped the first round with non-"star" Afflalo in Harden's place.

I don't know why more Houston fans don't just accept Harden for what he is.

I guess I just don't follow Houston sports enough to know why those fans would be in such a position where they feel the need to defend Harden when he is clearly a flawed "star" in that he's going to demand the touches of a star (which is why he left OKC), but he's not going to have an impact to ever escape the second round as one.

The first year I'm ok with. We had an inferior player at every other position besides SG and Center . On offense it was a wash between Perk and Asik.

This year though, I very disappointed. Being that he struggled so bad on offense I expected him to ramp it up on defense, but didn't happen and our coach kept him in the game. I'm still hoping that when we get a new coach in here, that coach will light the fire under his ass and make him step it up. Or have the balls to bench him for a stretch for not trying.

[Heavincent]

He's not just a sub-par/average defender, he's ****ing HORRIBLE. He literally just stands there, completely oblivious to his surroundings.

Dudes at the local rec put in more effort on defense.

[Mr Exlax]

He's not just a sub-par/average defender, he's ****ing HORRIBLE. He literally just stands there, completely oblivious to his surroundings.

Dudes at the local rec put in more effort on defense.

See that's the thing. I've watched a ton of Rockets games these last 2 years. He's average to me when he actually tries. That's the key I guess. When he tries. Effort has to be more consistent.

[russwest0]

The first year I'm ok with. We had an inferior player at every other position besides SG and Center . On offense it was a wash between Perk and Asik.

This year though, I very disappointed. Being that he struggled so bad on offense I expected him to ramp it up on defense, but didn't happen and our coach kept him in the game. I'm still hoping that when we get a new coach in here, that coach will light the fire under his ass and make him step it up. Or have the balls to bench him for a stretch for not trying.

lol stop with wanting a coach to make harden try harder and shit. okc has brooks who does nothing other than actively make the team worse whenever he makes a decision and our stars still play extremely hard.

notice how harden couldn't start in OKC though because he didn't play defense. So I guess you are kind of right in that regard? then again, Houston is paying that ***** some star money, so he has to start.

coaches can't make a player (particularly one with talent) WANT to win. That has to come from the player. Westbrook in my mind has the biggest will to win in the game right now, this dude gets so fukking jacked for big moments and games, and I have no idea how he has the energy he does to be such a force on the glass and defense while being an offensive workhorse

[Milbuck]

Replace Harden with pretty much any other ball-dominant high-volume fringe all star and you'd get the same damn results.

I've said this before.. Give 2009-11 Monta Ellis, who over two seasons put up 25/4/6/2 on 45/35/77 shooting his own franchise, like Harden has with the Rockets, tell him "do whatever the **** you want on offense and don't even think about defense"...surround him with an elite defensive anchor and great 2nd offensive option in Dwight, great 3rd option in Parsons, defensive off-ball PG in Beverley, another solid PG in Lin, great backup defensive anchor and rebounder in Asik off the bench, and other good role players like Garcia, Jones, Brooks, Casspi, etc...

And you've got a 50-55 win team that is either a 1st round team or 2nd round at their best.

The biggest difference is that Monta actually has a functioning pair of balls, which was confirmed in this year's playoffs when he was more impressive than Harden has ever been since 2012. Put him on the Rockets and Dwight's monster 1st round performance wouldn't have been completely worthless.

So to answer the OP...yes. It's not even debatable, it's like asking if Ben Wallace's total ineptitude on offense somehow makes him less of a star, despite him being a former all-star.

A weakness is a weakness. And Harden's weakness is ****ing massive.

[Milbuck]

Exlax already bringing up the "we need a coach that will hold him accountable" bullshit. What a ****ing shocker.

[Mr Exlax]

lol stop with wanting a coach to make harden try harder and shit. okc has brooks who does nothing other than actively make the team worse whenever he makes a decision and our stars still play extremely hard.

notice how harden couldn't start in OKC though because he didn't play defense. So I guess you are kind of right in that regard? then again, Houston is paying that ***** some star money, so he has to start.

It's not really crazy to have a player play harder under a different coach. You can't say you've never had a coach that brought the best out of you or made you want to win for him. Unless you've never played sports seriously. I really really think a good coach will bench his ass in stretches when he's not competing.

Brooks isn't the best coach, but at least he makes his guys want to compete. I'd take him over McHale any day of the week.

They asked Harden to be the sixth man before he got drafted. He could have started if he wanted to I think. He never made a peep about wanting to start though. He did that for the good of the team. That's what they needed from him. In the Finals they actually put him on LeBron. If he was soooooo bad at defense, that would have NEVER happened.

[Mr Exlax]

Replace Harden with pretty much any other ball-dominant high-volume fringe all star and you'd get the same damn results.

I've said this before.. Give 2009-11 Monta Ellis, who over two seasons put up 25/4/6/2 on 45/35/77 shooting his own franchise, like Harden has with the Rockets, tell him "do whatever the **** you want on offense and don't even think about defense"...surround him with an elite defensive anchor and great 2nd offensive option in Dwight, great 3rd option in Parsons, defensive off-ball PG in Beverley, another solid PG in Lin, great backup defensive anchor and rebounder in Asik off the bench, and other good role players like Garcia, Jones, Brooks, Casspi, etc...

And you've got a 50-55 win team that is either a 1st round team or 2nd round at their best.

The biggest difference is that Monta actually has a functioning pair of balls, which was confirmed in this year's playoffs when he was more impressive than Harden has ever been since 2012. Put him on the Rockets and Dwight's monster 1st round performance wouldn't have been completely worthless.

So to answer the OP...yes. It's not even debatable, it's like asking if Ben Wallace's total ineptitude on offense somehow makes him less of a star, despite him being a former all-star.

A weakness is a weakness. And Harden's weakness is ****ing massive.


I don't disagree with you at all actually. The only thing, about Monte, is that he's under a great coach now. Coaching is that important to me. I factor it in when I look at players or teams.

[Mr Exlax]

Exlax already bringing up the "we need a coach that will hold him accountable" bullshit. What a ****ing shocker.

Might be bullshit to ya. It doesn't change what I believe though. I'll keep saying it until we get a coach that will hold him accountable. Hopefully you only have to see it 1 more season.

[russwest0]

It's not really crazy to have a player play harder under a different coach. You can't say you've never had a coach that brought the best out of you or made you want to win for him. Unless you've never played sports seriously. I really really think a good coach will bench his ass in stretches when he's not competing.

Brooks isn't the best coach, but at least he makes his guys want to compete. I'd take him over McHale any day of the week.

They asked Harden to be the sixth man before he got drafted. He could have started if he wanted to I think. He never made a peep about wanting to start though. He did that for the good of the team. That's what they needed from him. In the Finals they actually put him on LeBron. If he was soooooo bad at defense, that would have NEVER happened.

Harden did make peeps about wanting to start. He got more vocal about it his last year here, even saying so during his 6MOY speech.

And they put him on LeBron in the Finals because Brooks is a jackass and also put Fisher and Ibaka on LeBron. We had no one to guard LeBron that year but neither did any other team because you literally could not breathe on him without him getting FT's.

And I have played sports at a competitive level until my parents were assholes and got lazy with having to be involved and told me I coudn't anymore.

I played soccer for 3 years and was an all star of that league every year all because I played my ass off on defense.

We played like 16 games a year and one year we were 0-8 and our coach stepped down and we got a new coach who ran some sort of triangle soccer offense or some weird shit and we finished the year our 8-0. the coach gave me the "mr heart" award at the end of the year and told me I should consider going to some overseas soccer camp as a defender or some shit.

so yeah, good coaches can install offenses, make teams play smarter, run better rotations, etc....

but if you aren't playing hard, the last person you blame is the fukking coach

[Mr Exlax]

Harden did make peeps about wanting to start. He got more vocal about it his last year here, even saying so during his 6MOY speech.

And they put him on LeBron in the Finals because Brooks is a jackass and also put Fisher and Ibaka on LeBron. We had no one to guard LeBron that year but neither did any other team because you literally could not breathe on him without him getting FT's.

And I have played sports at a competitive level until my parents were assholes and got lazy with having to be involved and told me I coudn't anymore.

I played soccer for 3 years and was an all star of that league every year all because I played my ass off on defense.

We played like 16 games a year and one year we were 0-8 and our coach stepped down and we got a new coach who ran some sort of triangle soccer offense or some weird shit and we finished the year our 8-0. the coach gave me the "mr heart" award at the end of the year and told me I should consider going to some overseas soccer camp as a defender or some shit.

so yeah, good coaches can install offenses, make teams play smarter, run better rotations, etc....

but if you aren't playing hard, the last person you blame is the fukking coach

I'll have to dig around because I don't recall hearing or seeing anything about wanting to start. I'll admit though, I was a Harden fan and not really an OKC fan.

Fisher was good at defense at the time and Ibaka was too. He didn't throw just anybody at him. That was the best he had available to him.

Coaches can also make you play harder. You left that part out for whatever reason. I obviously put more blame on Harden than I do McHale for his lack of effort, but if Harden doesn't fix it then you have to go to the person that's allowing him to do so. McHale isn't good at offense or defense. He's just there to make dumb subs and stupid lineup changes. We'll just have to agree to disagree. Like I told Millbuck, hopefully you only have to see me bring up a better coach for one more season.

[DJ Leon Smith]

The "oh if he tried he could play defence he could" argument sucks. That would be like anyone of us saying "oh if I tried I could shoot 50 percent from three". Either do it or shut the **** up. He doesn't do it so you can't argue he potentially could if he wanted to.

[russwest0]

I'll have to dig around because I don't recall hearing or seeing anything about wanting to start. I'll admit though, I was a Harden fan and not really an OKC fan.

Fisher was good at defense at the time and Ibaka was too. He didn't throw just anybody at him. That was the best he had available to him.

Coaches can also make you play harder. You left that part out for whatever reason. I obviously put more blame on Harden than I do McHale for his lack of effort, but if Harden doesn't fix it then you have to go to the person that's allowing him to do so. McHale isn't good at offense or defense. He's just there to make dumb subs and stupid lineup changes. We'll just have to agree to disagree. Like I told Millbuck, hopefully you only have to see me bring up a better coach for one more season.

nah bro I agree with you to an extent. McHale sucks balls too, he's just like Brooks :oldlol:

I can just tell you as an OKC fan that Harden wasn't "beloved" by the well informed fans here. There is a well known story that after game 1 of the Finals when OKC won, the whole team was celebrating in the lockeroom, except for Harden who was complaining that he didn't get enough touches.

The guy simply isn't a winner by any stretch of the imagination and for me and who I am, I just can't respect that.

[Mr Exlax]

The "oh if he tried he could play defence he could" argument sucks. That would be like anyone of us saying "oh if I tried I could shoot 50 percent from three". Either do it or shut the **** up. He doesn't do it so you can't argue he potentially could if he wanted to.

How many Rockets games have you watched? Not just highlights and shit, but entire games. You'd see he can and does play ok defense. His ability is not really in question. It's his consistency or the lack of it. Did you read the entire thing or just kinda skimmed through it?

[russwest0]

The "oh if he tried he could play defence he could" argument sucks. That would be like anyone of us saying "oh if I tried I could shoot 50 percent from three". Either do it or shut the **** up. He doesn't do it so you can't argue he potentially could if he wanted to.

yeah lol it's like the LeBron stans who say shit like "He's an elite defender when he wants to be" or some retarded shit.

like almost all of the guys in the NBA are elite athletes, what they do when they "want to" doesn't mean shit.

[DJ Leon Smith]

How many Rockets games have you watched? Not just highlights and shit, but entire games. You'd see he can and does play ok defense. His ability is not really in question. It's his consistency or the lack of it. Did you read the entire thing or just kinda skimmed through it?

You just admitted to exactly what I was arguing. Thank you :cheers:

[Mr Exlax]

nah bro I agree with you to an extent. McHale sucks balls too, he's just like Brooks :oldlol:

I can just tell you as an OKC fan that Harden wasn't "beloved" by the well informed fans here. There is a well known story that after game 1 of the Finals when OKC won, the whole team was celebrating in the lockeroom, except for Harden who was complaining that he didn't get enough touches.

The guy simply isn't a winner by any stretch of the imagination and for me and who I am, I just can't respect that.


I can dig it. I was beyond excited when we got him. He was already my second or third favorite player in the NBA. The first year I was still pumped because he was our entire offense. This last season though, I've come to hate the guy. I'm ok with taking a break on defense from time to time. That happens when you're the number 1 option. He put 0 effort on D too many times and it burns me up. He's on my team under contract for a while so all I can do is hope he comes on with it.

[Mr Exlax]

You just admitted to exactly what I was arguing. Thank you :cheers:

You're welcome I guess. The way you worded it I was under the impression that you were saying he doesn't have the ability to play good defense. You said nothing about his lack of consistency. When he tries to play defense, he's good at it. I don't really follow the point you were trying to make i guess.

[russwest0]

I can dig it. I was beyond excited when we got him. He was already my second or third favorite player in the NBA. The first year I was still pumped because he was our entire offense. This last season though, I've come to hate the guy. I'm ok with taking a break on defense from time to time. That happens when you're the number 1 option. He put 0 effort on D too many times and it burns me up. He's on my team under contract for a while so all I can do is hope he comes on with it.

yeah even with Durant, the trolls on here act like he is a bad defender but he has statistically been a great 1 on 1 defender these past 2 years, he just needs to improve his help defense awareness.

I remember seeing young Durant vs the Nuggets in the playoffs kill them with scoring down the stretch AND get a few clutch blocks defensively.... Hell he also locked up Kobe in 2012 down the stretch of a few games which was HUGE...

Maybe with some luck Harden will have some sort of breakthrough defensive moment or some shit, I don't know man all I can say is that if I was a Rocket fan I would be calling for the GM's head right now.

I'd much rather have

Adams, McGary, Lamb
+
Some HIGH lottery picks
+
whatever you could have traded Martin for

than Harden on a max deal with these first round exits year after year.

[Mr Exlax]

yeah lol it's like the LeBron stans who say shit like "He's an elite defender when he wants to be" or some retarded shit.

like almost all of the guys in the NBA are elite athletes, what they do when they "want to" doesn't mean shit.

I've seen LeBron lock Durant down for some long stretches. Lock him down down. LeBron wasn't floating around on defense or doing all of the playmaking in those stretches though. I think that's what he's gonna be doing this season since he won't have to do everything in Clevland. I think he's an elite defender when he puts the effort into it.

[3peated]

I like to think defense is the difference between an all-star and a superstar.

[Mr Exlax]

yeah even with Durant, the trolls on here act like he is a bad defender but he has statistically been a great 1 on 1 defender these past 2 years, he just needs to improve his help defense awareness.

I remember seeing young Durant vs the Nuggets in the playoffs kill them with scoring down the stretch AND get a few clutch blocks defensively.... Hell he also locked up Kobe in 2012 down the stretch of a few games which was HUGE...

Maybe with some luck Harden will have some sort of breakthrough defensive moment or some shit, I don't know man all I can say is that if I was a Rocket fan I would be calling for the GM's head right now.

I'd much rather have

Adams, McGary, Lamb
+
Some HIGH lottery picks
+
whatever you could have traded Martin for

than Harden on a max deal with these first round exits year after year.


Ehh Harden gets key stops from time to time. Good blocks or steals in the 4th quarter. Even contesting shots in the 4th. He just has to do it for 4 quarters. Rarely do any of his defensive lapses come in the 4th quarter. That's what's so frustrating.

[Mr Exlax]

I like to think defense is the difference between an all-star and a superstar.

I agree. I cringed when I heard he was anywhere in the MVP voting and NBA First Team voting.

[stephanieg]

A lot of the players that it lists as middling could actually be pretty good. I remember when Pierce and Ray Ray went to the C's people were like oh no they can't play defense! But then they were pretty awesome, especially in the playoffs. Pierce plays LeBron pretty well.

But then you could say oh, they had KG and Perkins so they could be more aggressive on the perimeter. Which is true. And Harden has Dwight.

[Mr Exlax]

A lot of the players that it lists as middling could actually be pretty good. I remember when Pierce and Ray Ray went to the C's people were like oh no they can't play defense! But then they were pretty awesome, especially in the playoffs. Pierce plays LeBron pretty well.

But then you could say oh, they had KG and Perkins so they could be more aggressive on the perimeter. Which is true. And Harden has Dwight.

Makes perfect sense. I really expected him to come on with it since Dwight was there. Maybe that's why he and Parsons got even worse on defense. Just like whatever since D12 is back there. I watched it happen a ton in Orlando.

[PsychoBe]

haren's defense is so bad it makes him less of a human being.

[IMObjective]

lol stop with wanting a coach to make harden try harder and shit. okc has brooks who does nothing other than actively make the team worse whenever he makes a decision and our stars still play extremely hard.

notice how harden couldn't start in OKC though because he didn't play defense. So I guess you are kind of right in that regard? then again, Houston is paying that ***** some star money, so he has to start.

coaches can't make a player (particularly one with talent) WANT to win. That has to come from the player. Westbrook in my mind has the biggest will to win in the game right now, this dude gets so fukking jacked for big moments and games, and I have no idea how he has the energy he does to be such a force on the glass and defense while being an offensive workhorse
Because westbrook's 10x the athlete harden is so it's easier for him. Harden might actually be a below average athlete for the nba, and he'd probably get blown by a lot of the more athletic guards even if he was trying. Maybe that's why he feels like there's no point in playing defense and he can avoid getting embarrassed.

[DJ Leon Smith]

Because westbrook's 10x the athlete harden is so it's easier for him. Harden might actually be a below average athlete for the nba, and he'd probably get blown by a lot of the more athletic guards even if he was trying. Maybe that's why he feels like there's no point in playing defense and he can avoid getting embarrassed.

Worst argument ever. Last season Matthew Dellavedova was one of the worst "athletes" in the NBA - and a ROOKIE - but he played amazing defense. You can always apply yourself and put forth the effort. Saying "oh he's a below average athlete so why even try" is the lamest excuse I've ever heard.

[Mr Exlax]

Because westbrook's 10x the athlete harden is so it's easier for him. Harden might actually be a below average athlete for the nba, and he'd probably get blown by a lot of the more athletic guards even if he was trying. Maybe that's why he feels like there's no point in playing defense and he can avoid getting embarrassed.


:facepalm :biggums: :wtf: :rolleyes: :coleman: :kobe: :whatever: :durantunimpressed: :yaohappy:

[YouGotServed]

James Harden doesn't try on defense because McHale doesn't hold him accountable. Surprised Morey, who supposedly treats his staff like assests and not human beings, gave McHale another chance.

[pnyozzzoo]

James Harden doesn't try on defense because McHale doesn't hold him accountable.
lol

James Harden cannot piss by himself because Mchale was not there to unzip his pants. ROFL ROCKETS FAN.:oldlol: :cheers:

[brantonli]

Exlax already bringing up the "we need a coach that will hold him accountable" bullshit. What a ****ing shocker.

I think you'll find 99% of Rocket fans are saying that. There was an insider on Clutchfans BBS that said the Rockets upper management were looking at Harden's leadership and defence (when it was still there) at the FIBA WC under Coach K, and debating why McHale couldn't exact the same effort out of Harden.

[YouGotServed]

lol

James Harden cannot piss by himself because Mchale was not there to unzip his pants. ROFL ROCKETS FAN.:oldlol: :cheers:

Cool argument, will read again.

[Dro]

Because westbrook's 10x the athlete harden is so it's easier for him. Harden might actually be a below average athlete for the nba, and he'd probably get blown by a lot of the more athletic guards even if he was trying. Maybe that's why he feels like there's no point in playing defense and he can avoid getting embarrassed.
This is a horrible argument.....

[Droid101]

Cool argument, will read again.
About on par with yours, so...

[SamuraiSWISH]

Harden's total lazy approach to the defensive side of the ball should unite even the most rigid waring stans of MJ, Kobe, and LeBron.

Those guys ball out, bring it, intimidate and impact the game on both ends. Predators on both sides of the ball.

Hell, even guys like KD, and Westbrook have more impact defensively than Harden's lazy ass. Article is right though. Irving, Love, Curry all just as bad defensively. Maybe without those particular plays where Harden embarrassingly zones out and ball watches.

[andremiller07]

Because westbrook's 10x the athlete harden is so it's easier for him. Harden might actually be a below average athlete for the nba, and he'd probably get blown by a lot of the more athletic guards even if he was trying. Maybe that's why he feels like there's no point in playing defense and he can avoid getting embarrassed.
:biggums:

[iamgine]

The "oh if he tried he could play defence he could" argument sucks. That would be like anyone of us saying "oh if I tried I could shoot 50 percent from three". Either do it or shut the **** up. He doesn't do it so you can't argue he potentially could if he wanted to.
But he did do it many times so you can argue that he could if he wanted to.

[bizil]

Harden can still be a superstar even with his defensive issues. However, u have SG's on the rise like Thompson, Beal, Derozan, etc. that are also getting better as well and will prove to be better two way players. If Beal turns into the Mitch Richmond kind of stud I think he will, I would take him OVER Harden in the future. And the better Thompson gets, I would take him OVER Harden in the future too. The SG spot is in a rut somewhat because the only two DOMINANT TWO WAY players in Kobe and Wade are getting older and have injury issues. If Harden doesn't watch out, the young guys I named could overtake him sooner than later.

However, what keeps Harden over them as of now is the fact that's he's an alpha dog scorer, is a great passing SG, and can play PG, SG, and SF. But historically, he will ALWAYS take a backseat peak wise to the SG's like MJ, Kobe, Wade, and West. Those guys were epic in their two way abilities. Even SG's peak wise like T Mac, Mitch, and Drexler had better defense too.

[Mr Exlax]

Harden can still be a superstar even with his defensive issues. However, u have SG's on the rise like Thompson, Beal, Derozan, etc. that are also getting better as well and will prove to be better two way players. If Beal turns into the Mitch Richmond kind of stud I think he will, I would take him OVER Harden in the future. And the better Thompson gets, I would take him OVER Harden in the future too. The SG spot is in a rut somewhat because the only two DOMINANT TWO WAY players in Kobe and Wade are getting older and have injury issues. If Harden doesn't watch out, the young guys I named could overtake him sooner than later.

However, what keeps Harden over them as of now is the fact that's he's an alpha dog scorer, is a great passing SG, and can play PG, SG, and SF. But historically, he will ALWAYS take a backseat peak wise to the SG's like MJ, Kobe, Wade, and West. Those guys were epic in their two way abilities. Even SG's peak wise like T Mac, Mitch, and Drexler had better defense too.

I agree. I hope he comes out next season and tries on defense consistently. Probably won't happen though. No real reason for it to happen. Won't get benched and already got his money.