I think MJ is underrated defensively on this board...

[fpliii]

From watching live and going back to look at tape, the guy never slacked off, and didn't really try to save energy by giving less than 100% effort. We're getting more and more data from the 90s, and the on/off numbers seem to paint him as a legitimately dominant player on that end.

A lot of star players are named to all-defensive teams on the basis of reputation, but Jordan's selections were pretty well-deserved. At the time (started watching during the last year of the first threepeat) I'd always thought Scottie was better defensively, but going back now I'm not sure that's the case. During the second threepeat it's pretty close, but from watching more and more of peak MJ, I think he was the superior man and help defender in his prime.

Maybe I'm stating the obvious, but I just wanted to give the dude his due. :applause:

[toneloc103]

Dude, nothing MJ did is under-rated on this board..

[T_L_P]

Agreed. The best defenders can't coast: it's just in their nature to always try on that end.

Perimeter defense gets overrated when people start trying to compare it to interior defense though. The two aren't comparable.

[3ball]

Agreed. It's too bad his prime was wasted in a weak era of wing players. Today? He'd unquestionable be the best offensive and defensive wing player by a wide margin. he'd give stars today a lot of trouble.


Weak wing players??.. The lists below show that SG's and SF's from 1990 (just that season alone) match the cast of 2014 SG's and SF's player-for-player.



SG's and SF's With At Least a 15 PER - one season (2014) versus one season (1990)


..2014 SG's...............................1990 SG's

James Harden*.................... Michael Jordan*
Dwayne Wade*.................... Clyde Drexler*
Manu Ginobili*..................... Mitch Richmond*
Joe Johnson......................... Joe Dumars*
Demar Derozan.................... Reggie Miller*
Klay Thompson.................... Ron Harper
Jamal Crawford.................... Fat Lever
Aaron Afflalo........................ Alvin Robertson
Nick Young.......................... Dale Ellis
JJ Redick..............................Ricky Pierce
Kevin Martin........................ Hersey Hawkins
Wesley Matthews................. Jeff Hornacek
Gerald Green....................... Ronaldo Blackmon



..2014 SF's..............................1990 SF's

Lebron James*...................... Larry Bird*
Kevin Durant*....................... Dominique Wilkins*
Carmelo Anthony*................. Scottie Pippen*
Paul George.......................... James Worthy*
Gordon Hayward................... Chris Mullin*
Kawhi Leonard...................... Bernard King*
Trevor Ariza.......................... Alex English*
Andre Iguodala..................... Adrian Dantley*
Nicholas Batum..................... Derrick McKey
Luol Deng............................. Reggie Lewis
Josh Smith........................... Orlando Woolridge
Chandler Parsons.................. Mark Aguirre
Rudy Gay............................. Jerome Kersey

HOF (*)


As you can see, the 2014 lists are comprised of more role players and play-finishers, as opposed to the list for the 1990 season that had more play-creating, All-NBA players and Hall-of-Famers.

[G0ATbe]

Dude, nothing MJ did is under-rated on this board..
This. Whats up with all these "MJ is underrated" threads? MJ's been skull-****ing them too hard it seems.:facepalm

[imdaman99]

I think MJ's best defense was burning his defenders out when they had to cover him. His unstoppable offense wore the defender out, and that meant they had less energy and stamina to do a lot on offense themselves. It's a great concept. Which is not to say he didn't lock anyone up that didn't even cover him, because he did.

I loved young Kobe because of this. He took on the challenges because he clearly had the energy to do it.

[ArbitraryWater]

MJ was the superior defender during the first three-peat, now maybe I didn't quite understand you about 1996-1998, but Pippen was QUITE EASILY the better defender during the second three-peat.

[juju151111]

From watching live and going back to look at tape, the guy never slacked off, and didn't really try to save energy by giving less than 100% effort. We're getting more and more data from the 90s, and the on/off numbers seem to paint him as a legitimately dominant player on that end.

A lot of star players are named to all-defensive teams on the basis of reputation, but Jordan's selections were pretty well-deserved. At the time (started watching during the last year of the first threepeat) I'd always thought Scottie was better defensively, but going back now I'm not sure that's the case. During the second threepeat it's pretty close, but from watching more and more of peak MJ, I think he was the superior man and help defender in his prime.

Maybe I'm stating the obvious, but I just wanted to give the dude his due. :applause:
I been tellin g people Mj was considered superior till 93. He was voted by coaches has the best defender in 93. People forget Mj is like 2nd all-time in stls and he miss many prime years.

[3ball]

Wasn't MJ a quicker perimeter defender than Scottie in his prime?... Jordan always had elite quickness, but his quickness was goat-level pre-baseball.

If Jordan is the quicker perimeter defender in his prime than Scottie, than it would make sense that he could be the better defender overall - they are both wings and do most of their damage defensively on the perimeter.

Although in his prime, Jordan probably had more blocks than Pippen too, in addition to being the quicker perimeter guy.

[Sarcastic]

Agreed 100%. Underrated AF.

[MP.Trey]

Could be the GOAT offensive perimeter player as well as the GOAT perimeter defender. :eek:

[Rose'sACL]

MJ is not underrated as a defender at all. Lebron backs down PG and Kawhi whenever they are 1-on-1 in the post but several people here think that he wouldn't be able to back down MJ in the post. This just proves that if anything at least ppl here overrate his defense. He was a great defender on guards but he couldn't guard magic....how will he guard lebron?

[Marchesk]

But can he guard all 5 positions?

http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/lebron-james.jpg

[Sarcastic]

MJ is not underrated as a defender at all. Lebron backs down PG and Kawhi whenever they are 1-on-1 in the post but several people here think that he wouldn't be able to back down MJ in the post. This just proves that if anything at least ppl here overrate his defense. He was a great defender on guards but he couldn't guard magic....how will he guard lebron?


Lebron couldn't back down JJ Barea :roll:

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/1001/nba_g_james_gb2_576.jpg

[Rose'sACL]

Lebron couldn't back down JJ Barea :roll:


Still stuck in 2011?

[Marchesk]

Man LeBron is underrated also.. but he took last year off big time! Hopefully he picks it up this year and gets DPOY. :applause:

Hopefully. Dude shuts down guys like Duncan and Dirk like nobody's business.

[Sarcastic]

Still stuck in 2011?


We gonna act like it didn't happen?


Leave it to stupid fcking Lebron Stans to derail any thread on this forum. It's like clockwork at this point.

[3ball]

Duncan averaged 15.4 PPG /.57 FG% .. hardly dominating. Role player numbers tbqh.

And LeBron guarded Marion in the Mavs series. :coleman:
Very true - Lebron never guards PF's.

He only occasionally does spot-duty on the bad ones like Tiago Splitter for a possession here and there, just enough so people can rave about it..

But he never guards Duncan, Dirk, or Randolph... the one time i remember him on a decent PF was in Game 1 of the ECF against the Pacer's David West... He got destroyed and the Heat had to change their gameplan for Game 2.

[T_L_P]

LeBron guarding 1-5 is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

He doesn't even guard 1-3 consistently in a season. Even a motivated LeBron (a player needing to be motivated to play D is embarrassing but whatever) can't guard legit PFs and Cs.

Don't get me wrong, LeBron's a good defender. A great one when he tries. But I remember him trying to guard old KG and getting into foul trouble immediately. Has he ever effectively guarded a Center not named Kendrick Perkins?

[JT123]

We gonna act like it didn't happen?


Leave it to stupid fcking Lebron Stans to derail any thread on this forum. It's like clockwork at this point.
You're a retard. :oldlol:

[JT123]

LeBron guarding 1-5 is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

He doesn't even guard 1-3 consistently in a season. Even a motivated LeBron (a player needing to be motivated to play D is embarrassing but whatever) can't guard legit PFs and Cs.

Don't get me wrong, LeBron's a good defender. But I remember him trying to guard old KG and getting into foul trouble. Has he ever effectively guarding a Center not named Kendrick Perkins?
2 seasons ago Lebron shut down big Al. Of course Lebron doesn't guard bigs very much, unlike that dude in San Antonio Lebron can't afford to be a role player on offense. Fact of the matter is that if Lebron was asked to play a Tony Allen/defense only role he might be better at guarding bigs than Duncan. Not saying it's a certainty, but it is possible.

[Glass Ankles]

2 seasons ago Lebron shut down big Al. Of course Lebron doesn't guard bigs very much, unlike that dude in San Antonio Lebron can't afford to be a role player on offense. Fact of the matter is that if Lebron was asked to play a Tony Allen/defense only role he might be better at guarding bigs than Duncan. Not saying it's a certainty, but it is possible.
I mean same can be applied to Durant, he is taller and longer than Lebron. And averages more steals AND blocks, he could definitely be a better big defender than him if he only concentrated on D. Not saying it's a certainty, but it is probable.

[JT123]

I mean same can be applied to Durant, he is taller and longer than Lebron. And averages more steals AND blocks, he could definitely be a better big defender than him if he only concentrated on D. Not saying it's a certainty, but it is probable.
Troll. Mods...

[Sarcastic]

You're a retard. :oldlol:

http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/2013-09/enhanced/webdr03/22/12/anigif_enhanced-buzz-8302-1379865714-15.gif

[Glass Ankles]

Troll. Mods...
Nice counter point. Much logic, very intelligence. :lol

[kennethgriffin]

fpliii.. i'm disapointed in the fact that you said "MJ is underrated defensively" when you could and should have said "non bigs are underrated defensively on ISH"


seems like no matter who it is or how great they are. theyel be mocked, laughed at and totally ignored when in comparison with even the most average big man defender because of the classic ISH logic of "defensive anchor"


if it were up to ISH. out of the top 20 defensive players ever. 16 of them would be big men.


with an exception made for jordan, moncrief, rodman and payton at most


when the reality is..

about 16 of the top 20 players of all time with the most defensive teams are NON BIGS


i mean yeah i know they gotta protect the rim. but whos protecting the guy from getting to the rim. and how many shots really are they altering or stopping when at most we see 1-2 blocks and 1 fancy dunk or layup a game.

that combined with most big men not being threats to score. and the complete change of the way the game is officiated the last 15 years. its obvious this big men obsession needs to end

[PsychoBe]

Nice counter point. Much logic, very intelligence. :lol

mods?????

[fpliii]

fpliii.. i'm disapointed in the fact that you said "MJ is underrated defensively" when you could and should have said "non bigs are underrated defensively on ISH"


seems like no matter who it is or how great they are. theyel be mocked, laughed at and totally ignored when in comparison with even the most average big man defender because of the classic ISH logic of "defensive anchor"


if it were up to ISH. out of the top 20 defensive players ever. 16 of them would be big men.


with an exception made for jordan, moncrief, rodman and payton at most


when the reality is..

about 16 of the top 20 players of all time with the most defensive teams are NON BIGS


i mean yeah i know they gotta protect the rim. but whos protecting the guy from getting to the rim. and how many shots really are they altering or stopping when at most we see 1-2 blocks and 1 fancy dunk or layup a game.

that combined with most big men not being threats to score. and the complete change of the way the game is officiated the last 15 years. its obvious this big men obsession needs to end
1) Completely disagree with that. I don't think any perimeter player has, or ever will have, as much defensive impact as any of the top 10-15 defensive bigs. Works the other way with offense as well.
2) Thing is though, all-defensive teams have two guards, two forwards, one center. You have more competition at center since that's where more of the high impact players are (look at Hakeem/Ewing/Robinson...all three guys were robbed of all-defensive teams by virtue of playing at the same time), and most of the PFs getting a forward spot are great defenders, but not paint protectors (Rodman, Malone, etc.). So 16/20 = 4/5, makes plenty of sense, based on the voting system.
3) A lot of it is mental though. These guys deter players from driving using intimidation, and alter tons of shots. Here's a quote from Russell's first autobiography:


I had one big edge going—the blocked shot.

To this moment, I could not teach anyone the practical application of the blocked shot. It must first be understood that according to the old school this is fundamentally poor defense. Auerbach recognized it for what it was. Properly applied it was as much psychological as actual.

You must learn just when a player is going to shoot; what type of shot he has, and where you have to be to block it. You have to know exactly where you are on the floor at all times. And you have to develop by repetition until it becomes almost second nature. I call it “canned thinking.” It is right there when I want it.

Let’s face it. You can only block a shot ten or twenty percent of the time. I don’t know at what given moment that percentage will come true. Neither does the shooter.

I don't know if MJ is the best perimeter defender ever. The top few guys may very well all be specialists. But gun to my head, 40 of the top 50 most impactful defenders ever are probably big men.

[Thorpesaurous]

In his young days he was among the best I've ever seen. And as he got into those title years, he was still capable of being the best defensive player at any given time. But Pippen was more versatile, and always felt more dangerous off the ball.

And by the second run, while he could still turn it on, that team was loaded defensively to the point where a guy like Ron Harper could be used as a specialist and Jordan could be put on the fourth best player to rest him or just let him freelance.

Harper, Jordan, Pippen, Rodman was a crazy defensive four. All of them are between 6-6 and 6-8. All are plus athletes. All are long armed and have good feet. All, even Harper, could hold up against the post against most anyone. That opened them up to all sorts of trapping, switching, any number of approaches to handling any number of offensive schemes.

Harper did create some issues spacing wise in the triangle. But overall that team was rediculous defensively.

And in the league now, you could definitely get away with Rodman at center, and put Kukoc as your fancy stretch 4, and that lineup would be an absolute goddamned nightmare. Back then you couldn't do that because you'd get killed on the glass where teams were playing two guys who'd be centers now at the same time.

[3ball]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/a94010f9a57f5f8cf96d5baf27e875d9.gif..http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/5f647b3bcbecbb84151a454438d89720.gif

[3ball]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/d7144f5c37f3c517d5db7d5d392e7be8.gif..http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/55e72ebc688071933072fbbb0f843885.gif

[SHAQisGOAT]

MJ is not underrated as a defender at all. Lebron backs down PG and Kawhi whenever they are 1-on-1 in the post but several people here think that he wouldn't be able to back down MJ in the post. This just proves that if anything at least ppl here overrate his defense. He was a great defender on guards but he couldn't guard magic....how will he guard lebron?


Yea, MJ got murked when trying to guard Magic or Bird in the post, because of their size, skill and smarts... Jordan's still one of the greatest defensive SG's (well, perimeter defenders in general) ever, and LeBron might be bigger and more athletic than Magic but he sure as hell doesn't have the as good of a post-game... but you wouldn't know nothing about that.

[oarabbus]

Weak wing players??.. The lists below show that SG's and SF's from 1990 (just that season alone) match the cast of 2014 SG's and SF's player-for-player.



SG's and SF's With At Least a 15 PER - one season (2014) versus one season (1990)


..2014 SG's...............................1990 SG's

James Harden*.................... Michael Jordan*
Dwayne Wade*.................... Clyde Drexler*
Manu Ginobili*..................... Mitch Richmond*
Joe Johnson......................... Joe Dumars*
Demar Derozan.................... Reggie Miller*
Klay Thompson.................... Ron Harper
Jamal Crawford.................... Fat Lever
Aaron Afflalo........................ Alvin Robertson
Nick Young.......................... Dale Ellis
JJ Redick..............................Ricky Pierce
Kevin Martin........................ Hersey Hawkins
Wesley Matthews................. Jeff Hornacek
Gerald Green....................... Ronaldo Blackmon



..2014 SF's..............................1990 SF's

Lebron James*...................... Larry Bird*
Kevin Durant*....................... Dominique Wilkins*
Carmelo Anthony*................. Scottie Pippen*
Paul George.......................... James Worthy*
Gordon Hayward................... Chris Mullin*
Kawhi Leonard...................... Bernard King*
Trevor Ariza.......................... Alex English*
Andre Iguodala..................... Adrian Dantley*
Nicholas Batum..................... Derrick McKey
Luol Deng............................. Reggie Lewis
Josh Smith........................... Orlando Woolridge
Chandler Parsons.................. Mark Aguirre
Rudy Gay............................. Jerome Kersey

HOF (*)


As you can see, the 2014 lists are comprised of more role players and play-finishers, as opposed to the list for the 1990 season that had more play-creating, All-NBA players and Hall-of-Famers.



:roll: Not this chart again, 3ball is a prropaganda master.

Do yourselves a favor and look up the actual stats for the year 1990 for those guys. Many were role players in 1990s. 3Ball wants to construct an argument where you hear these big names and think of them in their primes. That's not the case.


Anyway, no disagreements about Jordan's defensive prowess. He was incredible defensively.

[3ball]

SG's and SF's With At Least a 15 PER - one season (2014) versus one season (1990)


..2014 SG's...............................1990 SG's

James Harden*.................... Michael Jordan*
Dwayne Wade*.................... Clyde Drexler*
Manu Ginobili*..................... Mitch Richmond*
Joe Johnson......................... Joe Dumars*
Demar Derozan.................... Reggie Miller*
Klay Thompson.................... Ron Harper
Jamal Crawford.................... Fat Lever
Aaron Afflalo........................ Alvin Robertson
Nick Young.......................... Dale Ellis
JJ Redick..............................Ricky Pierce
Kevin Martin........................ Hersey Hawkins
Wesley Matthews................. Jeff Hornacek
Gerald Green....................... Ronaldo Blackmon



..2014 SF's..............................1990 SF's

Lebron James*...................... Larry Bird*
Kevin Durant*....................... Dominique Wilkins*
Carmelo Anthony*................. Scottie Pippen*
Paul George.......................... James Worthy*
Gordon Hayward................... Chris Mullin*
Kawhi Leonard...................... Bernard King*
Trevor Ariza.......................... Alex English*
Andre Iguodala..................... Adrian Dantley*
Nicholas Batum..................... Derrick McKey
Luol Deng............................. Reggie Lewis
Josh Smith........................... Orlando Woolridge
Chandler Parsons.................. Mark Aguirre
Rudy Gay............................. Jerome Kersey

HOF (*)



3Ball wants to construct an argument where you hear these big names and think of them in their primes. That's not the case.


I'm guessing you decided to lie because you were too lazy to look up the players yourself.... Guys in 1990 weren't in their prime???... So why did the 1990 SF's have more All-Stars than 2014?.. Blatant proof that you are biased and disingenuous.

The 2014 SF's only had 4 All-Stars (including the inactive Paul George, who should be removed from the list), compared to 5 for 1990 SF's (Larry Bird, Dominique, Pippen, Worthy, and Mullin were All-Stars in 1990).

So what are you complaining about guys not being in their prime?.. 1990 has FIVE current All-Stars to go with their 8 HOF's.

Also, it's clear the 2014 list of SF's is comprised of 100% play-finishing role players from the 5th spot on down the list, whereas the 1990 group has a higher proportion of play-creators.

Guys like Kawhi averaged 12.8 ppg... Iggy 9.3... Hayward 16.2... Ariza 14.4... Josh Smith 16.4... Parsons 16.0... Deng 14.3.... 1990 had role players like this too, but not as many... and as previously mentioned, 1990 had more all-stars and play-creators.

While the 1990 SF's have an edge on 2014 SF's, let's not even talk about the SG comparison, where 1990 destroys the talentless 2014 bunch.. 1990 SG's blow out 2014 like the Spurs doing Miami.... :oldlol:

Unless you WANT to discuss the SG's.. because I have no problem with it - do you want to discuss the SG's too?
.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Top 7 defensive guard and perimeter defender ever

[T_L_P]

Top 7 defensive guard

-Moncrief
-Payton

Who else ya got?

[SHAQisGOAT]

-Moncrief
-Payton

Who else ya got?

I'll probably say the very best are (no particular order):

Moncrief
Payton
Jordan
Cooper
Frazier
DJ


then you got Dumars, West, Kobe, Kidd, Cheeks, Sloan, so on...

[c5terror]

But can he guard all 5 positions?

http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/lebron-james.jpg

LOL lebron can't guard all position, he's getting murdered by barrea, marion, terry, parker, leonard, mills. he can't guard a role player LOL

[c5terror]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4gigN2zMU4

MJ 9mins defensive highlights...MJ>>>>>>>>Lebron defensively Not even close

[Rose'sACL]

Yea, MJ got murked when trying to guard Magic or Bird in the post, because of their size, skill and smarts... Jordan's still one of the greatest defensive SG's (well, perimeter defenders in general) ever, and LeBron might be bigger and more athletic than Magic but he sure as hell doesn't have the as good of a post-game... but you wouldn't know nothing about that.
I don't need to know any better. He would just overpower mj in the post. What other skill would he need?
Stop being so butthurt that there are younger guys who are smarter than you.

[andgar923]

Just imagine how much better he'd be if he wasn't carrying the offensive load?

It takes a toll getting constantly doubled and triple teamed.

Btw.... MJ was still the Bulls' best defender. He was the Bulls' go to stopper when it was needed. He also played more man to man then Pip did. Pip was used more as a free safety due to his length, while MJ had to chase people around screens all game.

[kshutts1]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/a94010f9a57f5f8cf96d5baf27e875d9.gif..http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/5f647b3bcbecbb84151a454438d89720.gif
Thanks for this post, 3ball.

When I think of Jordan, I think of the top play.

Even if/when he messes up... look how hard he tried to make it right. Jordan literally would not quit.

Aside from all the things I've read that showed how Jordan kept track of his own stats throughout the game, I really don't think he ever noticed the scoreboard. Whether up 50 or down 50, 10 seconds left or 10 minutes left, you couldn't tell by watching him.

There are not many wing players that are in my first tier, but he's one of the two (oscar being the other) for a reason.

[fpliii]

:banana:

[G0ATbe]

:facepalm

[DonDadda59]

From watching live and going back to look at tape, the guy never slacked off, and didn't really try to save energy by giving less than 100% effort. We're getting more and more data from the 90s, and the on/off numbers seem to paint him as a legitimately dominant player on that end.

A lot of star players are named to all-defensive teams on the basis of reputation, but Jordan's selections were pretty well-deserved. At the time (started watching during the last year of the first threepeat) I'd always thought Scottie was better defensively, but going back now I'm not sure that's the case. During the second threepeat it's pretty close, but from watching more and more of peak MJ, I think he was the superior man and help defender in his prime.

Maybe I'm stating the obvious, but I just wanted to give the dude his due. :applause:

No, this is all legitimately new information.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-VfFmhKHjOJA/Un3UMzrzw5I/AAAAAAAAQ54/B5D8Hc9WK5s/s1600/breaking_news_animated(1).gif

[guy]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/a94010f9a57f5f8cf96d5baf27e875d9.gif..http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/5f647b3bcbecbb84151a454438d89720.gif

:oldlol: I don't think anyone in NBA history has ever "owned" someone to the extent that Jordan has "owned" Ewing. A number of embarrassing dunks/shots/blocks on him, beat him in the playoffs all 5x they faced each other. Shit, he's currently Ewing's boss and he even didn't hire him for a head coaching position that he initially interviewed for but then eventually signed him as an assistant. :oldlol:

[BIZARRO]

Yeah most people probably don't know how good MJ was on D because they didn't see him play in the late '80's.

But I'd really save "underrated" for the like of a incredible perimeter defender like Alvin Robertson.

[3ball]

:facepalm



Here's John Long getting owned after attempting the common elgin-step move (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=354072) (also called the "euro"-step by new fans).


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/3fcf2363994f9fa018934d1a9c294c5a.gif




very next play... true guard, super-quickness


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/8d10a7d1b819c95e5523157852d26f0b.gif


that first block was super-loud... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8DP6Ga9m2s&t=0m46s
.

[Young X]

:oldlol: I don't think anyone in NBA history has ever "owned" someone to the extent that Jordan has "owned" Ewing. A number of embarrassing dunks/shots/blocks on him, beat him in the playoffs all 5x they faced each other. Shit, he's currently Ewing's boss and he even didn't hire him for a head coaching position that he initially interviewed for but then eventually signed him as an assistant. :oldlol:Don't forget about his game winner against Georgetown in College. :lol

[guy]

Don't forget about his game winner against Georgetown in College. :lol

Knew there was something I forgot :oldlol:

[Height Freak]

Not sure if MJ is underrated having been named DPOY in '88 and all nba defensive team many times and recognized by the media and fans as an elite defender throughout his playing days...

Pippen was certainly better.

http://38.media.tumblr.com/078465800008a8983fc8a363477cc148/tumblr_ndcotdqEs51sdydefo1_400.gif

http://i1146.photobucket.com/albums/o524/aloncho11/Pip.gif

http://38.media.tumblr.com/de331f441f74c03b5e8eb9a3e87d7018/tumblr_mr2zbiUNK11sdydefo1_400.gif

http://38.media.tumblr.com/4380fa0b99df36341394d405f502c7ef/tumblr_mr37skgMN01sdydefo1_400.gif

[3ball]

Pippen was certainly better.



Pippen was slow compared to Jordan - Jordan was much quicker, which is why he could dominate that end of the floor better.


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/ffa3ab35fed933e2e41fe4fc60320d97.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/407ce700c4735ef23f384a737a41b8ed.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/e270d4fcc3be5642492af315839bc223.gif
http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/0534070ef0bbc6627d4323d3d71a49e2.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/aa3b39aa362d91a16fcd86c297fa67b2.gif... GOAT lateral quickness here...


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/f6c1b02f3ab72d2cf6ce36baa34f795f.gif... and here...

[Height Freak]

Jordan is great, but pick pocketing/quickness ≠overall defensive ability.

[3ball]

Jordan is great, but pick pocketing/quickness ≠overall defensive ability.
Jordan blocked shots too, more than Pippen.. Jordan did it all

[3ball]

Jordan was doing chase-down blocks every game long before Lebron ever did one.

Jordan's the only guy in history with over 200 steals and over 100 blocks in a season.

and he did it twice.

[Micku]

Jordan was an excellent help defender from what I seen. He was great at rotating defensively. He was one of the best I've seen playing the passing lane and getting back on D if it didn't work out.

[Height Freak]

Jordan was doing chase-down blocks every game long before Lebron ever did one.

Jordan's the only guy in history with over 200 steals and over 100 blocks in a season.

and he did it twice.


I know, I've watched him play. Again I'm not saying he wasn't a great defender or overrated, but consider Pippen a slightly better all around one.

[PsychoBe]

how can a former perimeter dpoy ever be considered underrated? :facepalm

[DatAsh]

From watching live and going back to look at tape, the guy never slacked off, and didn't really try to save energy by giving less than 100% effort. We're getting more and more data from the 90s, and the on/off numbers seem to paint him as a legitimately dominant player on that end.

A lot of star players are named to all-defensive teams on the basis of reputation, but Jordan's selections were pretty well-deserved. At the time (started watching during the last year of the first threepeat) I'd always thought Scottie was better defensively, but going back now I'm not sure that's the case. During the second threepeat it's pretty close, but from watching more and more of peak MJ, I think he was the superior man and help defender in his prime.

Maybe I'm stating the obvious, but I just wanted to give the dude his due. :applause:

Jordan was the better defender more often than Pippen was, but I still gotta go with Pippen for what he did without Jordan. Both are in my top 5 perimeter defenders ever though, and I wouldn't have a problem with someone listing either as the best ever.

I don't really think his defense gets underrated prior to his first retirement, though I can agree with you that it's underrated during the second 3 peat. He's a big part of the reason why they were the best defense in the league in 96, and 97.

[DatAsh]

if it were up to ISH. out of the top 20 defensive players ever. 16 of them would be big men.


Like I said in my previous post, I'd have no problem with someone saying Jordan was the best perimeter defender ever, but he wouldn't make my top 16 overall - no way.

Bigs just have so much more impact on defense. The offense is funneled their way.

Thing is, it's the opposite on offense, it's just that no-one really acknowledges it or realizes it. People just kinda mistakenly assume that guys like Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Robinson, Duncan, and Ewing have as much offensive impact as guys like Magic, Bird, Jordan, Lebron, Kobe, and Robertson.

[hitmanyr2k]

Jordan was doing chase-down blocks every game long before Lebron ever did one.

Jordan's the only guy in history with over 200 steals and over 100 blocks in a season.

and he did it twice.

That's bullshit. Pippen has done it and damn near did it two seasons in a row. Olajuwon has done it as well.

[3ball]

That's bullshit. Pippen has done it and damn near did it two seasons in a row. Olajuwon has done it as well.
pippen and olajuwon did it once.. jordan did it twice... jordan's the only one to do it twice.

[Force]

I posted a few years ago on this board saying that if MJ had career averages of 8 points and 5 boards but played the same kind of defense

[Force]

I don't remember the stat exactly but it pertained to blocks and steals

[OldSchoolBBall]

That's bullshit. Pippen has done it and damn near did it two seasons in a row. Olajuwon has done it as well.

I'm pretty sure he meant that Jordan was the only player to do so up until that point (since the stats were kept), which is true. And Pippen barely did it (211 stl/101 blk), while Jordan shattered the marks (236/125 followed by 259/131).

[SamuraiSWISH]

Jordan at his peak was a better, more menacing defender than all of the following: Pippen, GP, LeBron, Wade, Kobe, and the rest of the perimeter guys. Ruthless demeanor, lightning fast anticipatory skills, the quickest lateral movements I've ever seen, great hands, intelligent, and fierce determination.

[sdot_thadon]

[QUOTE=Force]I posted a few years ago on this board saying that if MJ had career averages of 8 points and 5 boards but played the same kind of defense

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan actually didn't handcheck much at all (certainly not as much as his contemporaries like Dumars, Payton, Pippen, and Rodman). he also had the quickest feet of any player above 6'4" ever. He'd be fine defensively man to man, and would be even more deadly as a help/team defender due to being able to play an area rather than having to stay close to his man at all times. 23-29 year old Jordan would average 2.8+ stl/1.3+ block annually under today's rules imo.

[guy]

I agree with this post, but the bolded makes me wonder:

Are today's elite perimeter defenders just as good, if not better in some aspects as guys like Mj? The reason I raise the question is this era is forced to defend at the same level but without being able to use their hands as much. As Mj said he'd likely foul out more in this era, would modern guys excel more being able to hand check and all?

Pretty sure he was exaggerating. He'd adjust like any other player would.

[guy]

[QUOTE=Force]I posted a few years ago on this board saying that if MJ had career averages of 8 points and 5 boards but played the same kind of defense

[Force]

Glad to see people agreeing with me.

I'd like to add that it isn't just the hand check itself that was vastly different although playing with it is very different. Just general contact overall. Using your chest to bump players was normal and not called a foul. The defensive 3 seconds rule might be a bigger overall difference. It's gotten so easy to penetrate into the paint

[PsychoBe]

kenny smith called jordan the deon sanders of basketball.

coaches were too afraid to run plays on jordan's side of the court.

he's not underrated. not in the least bit.

[Force]

kenny smith called jordan the deon sanders of basketball.

coaches were too afraid to run plays on jordan's side of the court.

he's not underrated. not in the least bit.

Well Kenny and those coaches know about basketball

[plowking]

how can a former perimeter dpoy ever be considered underrated? :facepalm

Particularly when he didn't deserve it the year he won.

[sdot_thadon]

Pretty sure he was exaggerating. He'd adjust like any other player would.
I'm sure but the statement itself speaks to his beliefs as far as the differences between the era goes, exaggerated or not. As a pickup player from personal experience it's easier to contain someone when you can keep constant contact with them. Likewise it's much more challenging to do it strictly via footwork. And this is on a energy output level as well, you also need much sharper anticipation. Some guys use hand checking to correct slip ups, even to this day. I'm not in any way knocking Mj as a defender as he was an animal in that aspect, but trying to make accurate comparison between the eras.

[GimmeThat]

his defense is also the reason why a guy like Steve Kerr doesn't get the starting nod

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Hard to imagine MJ is underrated in anything basketball related lol

Guess because Pippen's help defense was so instrumental to those Chicago teams, you kind of forget Mike was the best man defender, which is also easy to forget because he is the greatest volume scorer of all-time.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Hard to imagine MJ is underrated in anything basketball related
True, especially with the advent of the internet and Kobe stans, then LeBron trolls but ultimately:


doesn't help is that its hard to believe someone was just THAT great at multiple facets of the game to the point that he was possibly the greatest offensive AND defensive player ever (maybe saying he was the GOAT defender is extreme but at the very least he's arguably the greatest perimeter defender ever). I think that's a big reason you find people so easily able to automatically assume certain things like Pippen was a better defender, Wade was a better shot-blocker, Kobe was a more skilled scorer, Nique was a better dunker, etc. People have a hard time thinking that someone was possibly the best and better then all these other great players at that many things.
I truly think it's hard for young fans, stans of other players who didn't get to see Jordan ...

Their ability to conceptualize this is REALLY difficult. As it should be, because it speaks to how absurdly great Jordan was at the best of his abilities.

Then in turn they get all defensive when these arguments are made, and they retort with strawman "oh yea, Jordan was the best at everything, right?" ... not necessarily, but he's the absolute closest we've seen to basketball perfection.

And no one is ever going to be perfect.