the greatest choke: 1969

[swagga]

If you think 2011 is a HOF choke you should watch the 1969 finals.

The Los Angeles Lakers were HEAVILY favored with HOFs Jerry west, Wilt Chumperlane and Elgin Baylor, yet they still lost to the over-the-hill Boston Celtics. They lost with the only FMVP to lose a finals, Jerry West, dropping 38/5/8 for the series.

The reason they lost was that Wilt Chumperlane was matched for production by a 35 year old Russell. Prime wilt averaged 11ppg, and in game 7, with 5 min to go and trailing 103-96, he quit because apparently his knee hurt :cry:. When the LA backup center helped the lakers get back within one wilt asked to get back in the game but his own coach told him "we're doing fine without you". Jerry west's superhuman 42/13/12 still couldn't carry wilt to a ring :facepalm . Oh yeah, they lost that game 7 at home.

How can people say you are the GOAT when you lose in your prime WHILE playing with one of the most dominant fmvp and another true HOF ???

spin this wilt stan :roll:

[dh144498]

it's true. Wilt is really overrated. Arguably the biggest choker of all time. Arguably not even top 10, but if he is top 10 he's at the lower end.

[jongib369]

Thought the mods banned people who bring up trolling arguments that have been dismantled countless times? Huh

Enjoy being here while you can guys, you're bound to get yourselves deleted

:cheers:

:dancin

:djparty

:party:

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/SLJ.gif

[jongib369]

.

it's true. Wilt is really overrated

https://33.media.tumblr.com/a27f8de623fd20e9bfe3747580e3df33/tumblr_nc0i7flMDA1sqd976o2_250.gif



Arguably the biggest choker of all time.

https://38.media.tumblr.com/3adabaa05369a3ed3f3276f6a82052b9/tumblr_nc0i7flMDA1sqd976o4_250.gif



Arguably not even top 10, but if he is top 10 he's at the lower end.

https://33.media.tumblr.com/9e8612f97f1ea0c6a3891d283242ed67/tumblr_nc0i7flMDA1sqd976o6_250.gif

[ArbitraryWater]

it's true. Wilt is really overrated. Arguably the biggest choker of all time. Arguably not even top 10, but if he is top 10 he's at the lower end.


wilt chamberlane sucks. should have never been a laker


http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Barack-Obama-Confused-Look.gif

[swagga]

Thought the mods banned people who bring up trolling arguments that have been dismantled countless times? Huh

Enjoy being here while you can guys, you're bound to get yourselves deleted

:cheers:

:dancin

:djparty

:party:

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/SLJ.gif

like replying with 100 emoticons while giving no arguments. sure, where da MODS at?

[jongib369]

like replying with 100 emoticons while giving no arguments. sure, where da MODS at?
There's a difference between starting bullshit and reacting to something giving back what it's worth

[StephHamann]

http://ridethepine.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/wilttrack.jpg


:pimp: :pimp: :pimp: :pimp:

[jongib369]

http://ridethepine.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/wilttrack.jpg


:pimp: :pimp: :pimp: :pimp:
http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/7710/tumblrmgxv4nwvyz1s0lcbw.jpg

He looks bored, I've been around but I'd be visibly excited with that girl on my lap :lol

[L.Kizzle]

http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/7710/tumblrmgxv4nwvyz1s0lcbw.jpg

He looks bored, I've been around but I'd be visibly excited with that girl on my lap :lol
He's not sad, her friend is under the table doin' the do!

[riseagainst]

Wilt is definitely better at womanizing than he is at basketball.

[swagga]

There's a difference between starting bullshit and reacting to something giving back what it's worth

niggga did I say anything wrong?
-wilt did average 11 ppg in or very close to his prime
-he didn't ring with jerry west going ham FMVP and with elgin baylor still playing good
- they were HEAVY favorites and they lost
-bill russell equaled him in production at 35 yrs while being shorter, less athletic, significantly older in ball terms, weaker, fukked less hoes , etc.
-wilt tried to pull an injury and then begged his coach to be let in the game when other people did the work
-coach told wilt that he has better options, niggga should sit his ass on the bench, away from the cheerleaders who were working.

Come at me bro, just ethered your stan ass :lol

[Baller1986]

Terrible performance by Wilt.

[swagga]

http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/7710/tumblrmgxv4nwvyz1s0lcbw.jpg

He looks bored, I've been around but I'd be visibly excited with that girl on my lap :lol

https://i.imgur.com/gJPOBkQ.png

[Akhenaten]

Prime wilt averaged 11ppg, and in game 7, with 5 min to go and trailing 103-96, he quit because apparently his knee hurt :cry:. When the LA backup center helped the lakers get back within one wilt asked to get back in the game but his own coach told him "we're doing fine without you".

All I want to know from the Wilt fans is if this is factually correct?

I'm 32, obviously I wasn't around and to be frank I don't know ho I could rate some who played 20 years before I was born.

Don't care about Wilt one way or the other, my only question is in regards to these sequence of events.

Nevermind the details, like the quote of the coach and so on, did the events transpire as OP is saying? Was his team down double digits with 5 mins left? Had the lead been trimmed to 1 when he asked to be put back in the game?

[Baller1986]

Wilted Under Pressure.

[fpliii]

I'm not a Wilt guy so I don't mind as much, but why is the constant trolling of him and his era permitted, while anti-LeBron/Kobe/MJ trolling/agenda threads don't stay up for long? Is it just that these threads aren't reported?

[swagga]

All I want to know from the Wilt fans is if this is factually correct?

I'm 32, obviously I wasn't around and to be frank I don't know ho I could rate some who played 20 years before I was born.

Don't care about Wilt one way or the other, my only question is in regards to these sequence of events.

Nevermind the details, like the quote of the coach and so on, did the events transpire as OP is saying? Was his team down double digits with 5 mins left? Had the lead been trimmed to 1 when he asked to be put back in the game?

ask and thou shallt receive brother. these wilt stans won't answer you on this one even if they stalk this board 24/7/365 because they can't prop their boy on this one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1969_NBA_Finals ... see the game 7 entry for coach quote and for sequence of events. You'll see that it was even more ridiculous with people preparing baloons, marching bands and other shit in the vein of "not 1 not 2 not 3.."

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1969_finals.html ... stats. Wilt boarded godly but so did russell, their production is very close. As you can see russell had more of an offensive impact due to his passing.:lol

[swagga]

I'm not a Wilt guy so I don't mind as much, but why is the constant trolling of him and his era permitted, while anti-LeBron/Kobe/MJ trolling/agenda threads don't stay up for long? Is it just that these threads aren't reported?

Jongib/lazareus are prolly old timers that are experiencing severe memory loss, these dudes can't remember what they had for breakfast let alone a thread from 2 days ago, just bookmark and post.... they never post in non-wilt threads.

The rest (cavsftw, marchesk, .. ) is literate trolling brother. It brings the hits to the site and offers some variation from lebronze vs kome vs jordangoat vs dubeta plus the weekly fake racism thread. Offseason tbh.

[swagga]

here's one for the salty stan that 1 starred this thread without giving a single counter argument.

https://i.imgur.com/7Ddp92K.png

[Asukal]

All I want to know from the Wilt fans is if this is factually correct?

I'm 32, obviously I wasn't around and to be frank I don't know ho I could rate some who played 20 years before I was born.

Don't care about Wilt one way or the other, my only question is in regards to these sequence of events.

Nevermind the details, like the quote of the coach and so on, did the events transpire as OP is saying? Was his team down double digits with 5 mins left? Had the lead been trimmed to 1 when he asked to be put back in the game?

The 4th quarter of the final game of the series is uploaded on youtube.

See for yourself:
1969 Finals 4thQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lnu5vMfPtbw)

[LAZERUSS]

The 4th quarter of the final game of the series is uploaded on youtube.

See for yourself:
1969 Finals 4thQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lnu5vMfPtbw)


Exactly. Completely blows away the nonsense in the OP. Thank you.

1. The Lakers were down by 17 points with about 10 minutes left.

2. They began to mount a comeback against an aged Celtic team that was fading fast.

3. The incompetence of "The Butcher" Van Kolff was on display early and often, not only throughout the entire series, but evidenced in the 4th quarter footage. Early on Russell picked up his 5th personal foul, and the Lakers immediately went into Wilt, who went right around the "matador" defense of Russell (ever notice how Russell quit playing defense with five fouls BTW), for an easy lay-in. Instead of milking that strategy, VBK went back to the shot-jacking of Baylor.

4. With a little over six minutes left, Chamberlain grabbed a defensive rebound, and his outlet cut the margin to nine points. However, he injured his leg on the play, and was in obvious pain.

5. Boston came down, missed yet another shot, and again, a one-legged Chamberlain grabbed the rebound, his second on the injured leg...which BTW...equaled Russell's total in his 12 minutes of play in the entire 4th quarter (Wilt had seven in his seven minutes of play BTW.) Wilt's outlet led to a shooting foul on West, and LA took a time out to get Wilt off the floor.

6. West, made both FTs, and the lead had been cut from 17, down to 7, in a little over four minutes of play. Clearly, the Celtics were ripe for the taking. Sam Jones had fouled out earlier, and an embarrassed Russell was nowhere to be found the entire 4th quarter (watch the footage...he did absolutely NOTHING in that last period.)

7. With Boston hanging by a thread, and LA CONTINUING their comeback, Chamberlain asked VBK to go back in with about three minutes left. The idiotic "Butcher" refused...and it basically cost him his coaching career, and the city of LA their first-ever title.

8. Instead, VBK stuck with the great Mel fukking Counts, a player who had shot poorly the entire game (4-13), and who would miss a key shot late, and then commit a horrific turnover with less than a minute remaining.

9. Don Nelson hit a miraculous shot late to ice the game...in a two point Boston win.

10. For the game, Chamberlain, playing 43 minutes to Russell's 48, outscored Russell, 18-6; outshot Russell, 7-8 to 2-7 from the field; outscored Russell from the line, 4-2; and outrebounded Russell, 27-21.

11. Oh, and West, while certainly playing brilliantly, still missed two key FTs in the 4th quarter (four overall), and missed more shots from the field, than what he would make (he shot 14-29 from the floor.)

12. Subtract Russell's 2-7 from the field, and Chamberlain's 7-8 from the floor, and Russell's teammates outshot Wilt's from the field by a ...get this... .477 to .360 margin....in a two point win!



-wilt did average 11 ppg in or very close to his prime
-he didn't ring with jerry west going ham FMVP and with elgin baylor still playing good
- they were HEAVY favorites and they lost
-bill russell equaled him in production at 35 yrs while being shorter, less athletic, significantly older in ball terms, weaker, fukked less hoes , etc.
-wilt tried to pull an injury and then begged his coach to be let in the game when other people did the work
-coach told wilt that he has better options, niggga should sit his ass on the bench, away from the cheerleaders who were working.


"Elgin Baylor still playing good?"

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Baylor had three straight games of 4-18, 2-14, and 4-13 shooting from the field (and in that 2-14 game, he went 1-5 from the line, as well,...in a one point loss.) AND, in that game seven, he blew chunks all over the floor with an 8-22 performance (remember Wilt and his 7-8 FG/FGA?)

"Bill Russell equaled in production at age 35?"

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Russell was not only awful in the entire game seven (and completely MIA in the 4th quarter), as always against Wilt, he couldn't hit the broadside of a barn...shooting .397 in the series (Wilt shot .500 BTW.)

Chamberlain outscored, badly outrebounded, and badly outshot Russell in that series. As for Wilt's diminished scoring, ...just take a look at that game seven footage. He never got the ball. Baylor and West were shot-jacking the entire series. BTW, in the game three 111-105 loss, Baylor AND West combined to shoot 1-14 from the field in the 4th quarter. So even West was not without his faults in that series.

And speaking of West...instead of blaming Wilt for that series loss...how about blaming VBK's "strategy?" Obviously, as well as West played, that "strategy" was not successful. Why didn't VBK ask his teammates to get the ball into Wilt's hands more?

Wilt's "faked injury?" Now I ask YOU...if Wilt did "fake" his injury....why did he wait until six minutes were left, and the Lakers were in the process of mounting a furious comeback? Why didn't he pull up lame late in the third quarter, when he picked up his fifth personal foul, and with his team seemingly dead and down by 17 points?

BTW, Chamberlain would injure that SAME leg early on in the very next season, and it would require MAJOR KNEE SURGERY.

Oh, and Russell, who ripped Wilt for pulling himself out of that game (remember Russell missing two full games of the '58 Finals with an ankle injury BTW...in a 4-2 series loss?)...later apologized.

Even Wilt's own hated coach, Van Breda Kolff claimed that Wilt was injured. Why would that jack-ass make that comment if it weren't true?

As for VBK...when West found out later that VBK had not put Wilt back in the game after Chamberlain had asked to go back in...he went ballistic. VBK, knowing full well that he was going to be fired...immediately quit, and his NBA career would be over in a couple of years.


No question,...the '69 Finals were Wilt's worst. He played poorly in game four, (albeit, he was still better than Russell in that game), and poorly in game six. But to blame him when VBK and Baylor made so many gaffes is ridiculous.

Of course the Wilt-bashers will always bring up the '69 Finals. They really can't blame Chamberlain for any other series in his 28 other playoff series (they will try, but they will be blown into the water.)

And again, this was a Wilt who put up a 25 rpg series, and as always, just pounded Russell on the glass. ONLY Chamberlain would get drilled for that.

Wilt did get his "revenge" though. With new head coach, Bill Sharman, Chamberlain anchored the '71-72 Lakers, which would go 69-13 (including 33 wins in a row), and then carried them thru the playoffs, and to their first-ever title in Los Angeles...and en route winning the FMVP. BTW, how about West in that post-season? He shot a putrid .376 in the entire post-season, and then topped that with a .325 Finals. And yet Wilt STILL led the Lakers to a dominating title.

Where were the "bashers" that year?

[LAZERUSS]

BTW, the greatest Finals "choke job" by a Top-10 player was Kobe in the '04 Finals, when he single-handedly took his "heavily-favored" Lakers down in flames with one of the worst shooting performances in Finals' history.

And his '08 Finals against the Celtics has to rank right there, as well.

[Stringer Bell]

Wilt is definitely better at womanizing than he is at basketball.

West was great at womanizing too, although maybe not as great as Wilt.

West was playing thru injuries too that postseason. Incredible series he played.

[TheMarkMadsen]

37.5% FT

:roll: :roll:

[LAZERUSS]

37.5% FT

:roll: :roll:

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Shaq won a ring while shooting .387 from the line in a Finals.

Russell won rings while shooting .356 and .361 from the FIELD in two of his playoff runs. (BTW, he also failed to win rings in post-season runs in which he shot .360 and .365.)

[Asukal]

6. West, made both FTs, and the lead had been cut from 17, down to 7, in a little over four minutes of play. Clearly, the Celtics were ripe for the taking. Sam Jones had fouled out earlier, and an embarrassed Russell was nowhere to be found the entire 4th quarter (watch the footage...he did absolutely NOTHING in that last period.)

:biggums: :facepalm

This is where you show your true colors. Russell was horrible in scoring, those 2 pathetic post moves he showed was cringe worthy. But he wasn't useless, far from it actually, he played great defense. He was setting picks, getting rebounds, contesting shots. :confusedshrug:

Of course since those things don't get measured by stats the stan in you will say he didn't do anything. :rolleyes: :kobe:

[TheMarkMadsen]

barely over 10 points per game with 37.5% FT

damn don't do em like that GOAT

:roll: :roll:

[Asukal]

37.5% FT

:roll: :roll:

Did you see Wilt's first free throw attempt in the 4th Q? It's like he didn't even aim for the shot, just threw the ball towards the ring. Worst FT shooter of all time. :facepalm

[DatAsh]

:biggums: :facepalm

This is where you show your true colors. Russell was horrible in scoring, those 2 pathetic post moves he showed was cringe worthy. But he wasn't useless, far from it actually, he played great defense. He was setting picks, getting rebounds, contesting shots. :confusedshrug:

Of course since those things don't get measured by stats the stan in you will say he didn't do anything. :rolleyes: :kobe:

Defense doesn't matter since it can't be measured by stats.

[LAZERUSS]

:biggums: :facepalm

This is where you show your true colors. Russell was horrible in scoring, those 2 pathetic post moves he showed was cringe worthy. But he wasn't useless, far from it actually, he played great defense. He was setting picks, getting rebounds, contesting shots. :confusedshrug:

Of course since those things don't get measured by stats the stan in you will say he didn't do anything. :rolleyes: :kobe:

Russell was hiding with his 5 personal fouls, contested practically nothing, and only had 2 rebounds the entire quarter. Chamberlain had as many rebounds, on two straight possessions, with an injured leg, as Russell did the entire quarter.

[Asukal]

Russell was hiding with his 5 personal fouls, contested practically nothing, and only had 2 rebounds the entire quarter. Chamberlain had as many rebounds, on two straight possessions, with an injured leg, as Russell did the entire quarter.

Yeah let's act like he didn't block elgin baylor and contested a couple of lay ups by the lakers. Tell me why the Lakers didn't go to Wilt everytime during that 4th Q when Russell was basically one foul away from being ejected? :confusedshrug:

[Mr. Jabbar]

lebrons grandfather :applause:

[LAZERUSS]

Yeah let's act like he didn't block elgin baylor and contested a couple of lay ups by the lakers. Tell me why the Lakers didn't go to Wilt everytime during that 4th Q when Russell was basically one foul away from being ejected? :confusedshrug:

I covered that in first post on the topic...


3. The incompetence of "The Butcher" Van Kolff was on display early and often, not only throughout the entire series, but evidenced in the 4th quarter footage. Early on Russell picked up his 5th personal foul, and the Lakers immediately went into Wilt, who went right around the "matador" defense of Russell (ever notice how Russell quit playing defense with five fouls BTW), for an easy lay-in. Instead of milking that strategy, VBK went back to the shot-jacking of Baylor.

VBK cost the Lakers that series...plain-and-simple. LA would have been better off with no coach at all, than with the "Butcher" Van Breda Kolff.

[millwad]

BTW, the greatest Finals "choke job" by a Top-10 player was Kobe in the '04 Finals, when he single-handedly took his "heavily-favored" Lakers down in flames with one of the worst shooting performances in Finals' history.

And his '08 Finals against the Celtics has to rank right there, as well.

Haha, this is beyond laughable.

Wilt definitely choked and say whatever you want about his so called injury but those FT's were so awful.

Game 4 of the '69 finals the Lakers and Wilt lost with 1 point against the Celtics, Wilt choked big time from the FT-line and only made 2 out of 11 FT's.

In game 7 of the '69 finals the Lakers and Wilt lost with 2 points against the Celtics, Wilt in that game only made 4 out of 13 FT's.

[millwad]

Yeah let's act like he didn't block elgin baylor and contested a couple of lay ups by the lakers. Tell me why the Lakers didn't go to Wilt everytime during that 4th Q when Russell was basically one foul away from being ejected? :confusedshrug:

Wilt was so passive in the fourth, he wasn't even trying and I love how Jlauber/Lazeruss is blaming the coach for Wilt and his massive choking. Almost every time Wilt got the ball in the fourth he passed it even though as you said, Russell was in foul problems.

And the Lakers lost with 2 points, Wilt made 4 out of 13 FT's and he basically gave the game away from the FT-line. Just like he did in game 4 when he missed 9 out of 11 FT's.

[millwad]

I covered that in first post on the topic...



VBK cost the Lakers that series...plain-and-simple. LA would have been better off with no coach at all, than with the "Butcher" Van Breda Kolff.

Yeah, the coach made Wilt miss 9 out of 11 FT's in a game the Lakers lost with 1 point, haha..

[SHAQisGOAT]

Definitely can be argued as one of the greatest "chokes" ever.



The 4th quarter of the final game of the series is uploaded on youtube.

See for yourself:
1969 Finals 4thQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lnu5vMfPtbw)

West :bowdown:

Also :applause: to Russell for still getting it done at that point, plus to Sam (clutch) Jones and Hondo who imho would've been the FMVP had it gone to a winning player (as always afterwards).

[StephHamann]

https://i.imgur.com/gJPOBkQ.png


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Akhenaten]

Ok, OP obviously took liberties with his description of the events in his initial post. It looks to me like dude was legit hurt, went out got a little treatment and of course like any other player wanted to get back in the game.

I must say though that watching the ancillary players I had to restrain my self from laughing (as I am at work), also it's nice to know that the more things change the more they stay the same in some respects.

My word if that 4th QTR is any indication, Jerry West was the NBA's original golden boy....those players couldn't breathe on dude without the whistle blowing.

Watching that vid makes it plain how seismic the gap in skill level, talent (especially depth of talent, most of these players wouldn't get picked up at my local park) and ability.

Jerry West was nice, you could tell he was a GUNMAN though, very smooth and knew how to draw contact. Another thing they let the stars get away with travels even back then Russel and Wilt were traveling all over the place, they got that Mel Counts guy though soon as he came in the game :roll: .

[jongib369]

Jongib/lazareus are prolly old timers that are experiencing severe memory loss, these dudes can't remember what they had for breakfast let alone a thread from 2 days ago, just bookmark and post.... they never post in non-wilt threads.

The rest (cavsftw, marchesk, .. ) is literate trolling brother. It brings the hits to the site and offers some variation from lebronze vs kome vs jordangoat vs dubeta plus the weekly fake racism thread. Offseason tbh.

:lol I'm 23 bruh, and you must not be too familiar with me if you think I only post in Wilt threads. I'm at a friends house atm, if I have the time later I'll respond

[-23-]

I think this is right up there with Lebron's dallas choke job.

[swagga]

:lol I'm 23 bruh, and you must not be too familiar with me if you think I only post in Wilt threads. I'm at a friends house atm, if I have the time later I'll respond

i know you need time bruh, it's hard to find something positive in such an epic choke :lol

[riseagainst]

Wilt chokes alot. I bet he even chokes women in bed.

[KirbyPls]

Wilt chokes alot. I bet he even chokes women in bed.

Who doesn't? :confusedshrug:

[LAZERUSS]

Definitely can be argued as one of the greatest "chokes" ever.




West :bowdown:

Also :applause: to Russell for still getting it done at that point, plus to Sam (clutch) Jones and Hondo who imho would've been the FMVP had it gone to a winning player (as always afterwards).

I could list MANY "choke jobs" by your boy Bird, and even you KNOW it. In his greatest regular season of his career, 87-88, Bird had one of the WORST post-season series by a GOAT of all-time against the Pistons (shooting .351 in that series). Oh, and then Magic just CRUSHED the Pistons in the Finals that year.

Same with Millwad's Hakeem, who couldn't get past the First Round in EIGHT post-seasons, and in fact, was generally blown out in them. He could pad his post-season stats against non-centers, but his teams were wiped out. And the Hakeem-lovers will never bring up the FACT, that in his first title run, he didn't face a LEGITIMATE center in the first three rounds. Or that in his second title, and in the Finals, his TEAMMATES blew away Shaq's teammates. In fact, while Hakeem was, once again, shooting below the post-season league average in eFG%, his TEAMMATES were shooting WAY above it.

As for Russell...yeah, he won a ring in '69, in a series in which, as always, he was outplayed by Wilt...and carried by his TEAMMATES who just trashed Wilt's, especially in that game seven, when they outshot Wilt's teammates by a .477 to .360 margin from the field.

[SHAQisGOAT]

I could list MANY "choke jobs" by your boy Bird, and even you KNOW it. In his greatest regular season of his career, 87-88, Bird had one of the WORST post-season series by a GOAT of all-time against the Pistons (shooting .351 in that series). Oh, and then Magic just CRUSHED the Pistons in the Finals that year.

Same with Millwad's Hakeem, who couldn't get past the First Round in EIGHT post-seasons, and in fact, was generally blown out in them. He could pad his post-season stats against non-centers, but his teams were wiped out. And the Hakeem-lovers will never bring up the FACT, that in his first title run, he didn't face a LEGITIMATE center in the first three rounds. Or that in his second title, and in the Finals, his TEAMMATES blew away Shaq's teammates. In fact, while Hakeem was, once again, shooting below the post-season league average in eFG%, his TEAMMATES were shooting WAY above it.

As for Russell...yeah, he won a ring in '69, in a series in which, as always, he was outplayed by Wilt...and carried by his TEAMMATES who just trashed Wilt's, especially in that game seven, when they outshot Wilt's teammates by a .477 to .360 margin from the field.

http://static.gamespot.com/uploads/original/378/3789400/2384304-4390957522-CaryG.gif

[B-hoop]

Holy shit i just watched the footage and Lazeruss literally lied about everything.

Russel not only kept on playing defense but had 2 blocks after he got his 5th foul. Wilt? None.

Also most of Wilt rebounds were uncontested, 2 of them he stole from his own teammate. Russel on the other hand really had to work for his rebounds.

All in all, Wilt had pretty much no impact on the game in the 4th quarter, West though had a monster 4th quarter and i really have no idea why Baylor started shotjacking when the score got closer instead of going with WEst.

[ArbitraryWater]

All I want to know from the Wilt fans is if this is factually correct?

I'm 32, obviously I wasn't around and to be frank I don't know ho I could rate some who played 20 years before I was born.

Don't care about Wilt one way or the other, my only question is in regards to these sequence of events.

Nevermind the details, like the quote of the coach and so on, did the events transpire as OP is saying? Was his team down double digits with 5 mins left? Had the lead been trimmed to 1 when he asked to be put back in the game?

What happened to searching for the shit yourself? This isn't hard to Google..

[Akhenaten]

What happened to searching for the shit yourself? This isn't hard to Google..

So you think I'm finna research and watch game film from 45 years ago to verify some goofy old man's story?

http://d22zlbw5ff7yk5.cloudfront.net/images/cm-21545-650528a3316409.gif

[Harison]

While OP is obviously baiting, I agree with him it was the biggest choke ever.

[LAZERUSS]

While OP is obviously baiting, I agree with him it was the biggest choke ever.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Russell's '67 EDF's were FAR worse...

especially in the must-win game five...

talk about puking all over the floor...

[ArbitraryWater]

So you think I'm finna research and watch game film from 45 years ago to verify some goofy old man's story?

http://d22zlbw5ff7yk5.cloudfront.net/images/cm-21545-650528a3316409.gif

You clearly cared a decent amount for it.. Asking all those questions.

The Video is right on ****in' YouTube.. like 20 minutes.


---

BTW, yes, probably the GOAT Choke.

[DatAsh]

Holy shit i just watched the footage and Lazeruss literally lied about everything.

Russel not only kept on playing defense but had 2 blocks after he got his 5th foul. Wilt? None.

Also most of Wilt rebounds were uncontested, 2 of them he stole from his own teammate. Russel on the other hand really had to work for his rebounds.

All in all, Wilt had pretty much no impact on the game in the 4th quarter, West though had a monster 4th quarter and i really have no idea why Baylor started shotjacking when the score got closer instead of going with WEst.

I've seen the footage before, not sure where Laz gets that Russell played bad defense. Russell's defense was incredible in the 4th. Might have something to do with what the commentators are saying. It's easier to judge with the sound off, though you lose the emotion of it.

He was directly responsible for eliminating 7-9 points in the quarter. That's a lot for one quarter - just thinking of it from an offensive perspective. Russell's impact in the 4th was second to only West's.

As for the rebounds, Russell and Baylor had the most crucial rebounds of the quarter, but I wouldn't say Wilt's rebounds were uncontested; 2 of them were definitely contested.

Also, West was absolutely incredible, one of the best finals performances ever, but Havlicek should have been the fmvp. Given the heat of the moment and recency bias of these types of things, I understand why they gave it to West, but it was still the wrong choice. Hondo was incredible as well - 28/11/4 with outstanding defense - and he was on the winning team.

[LAZERUSS]

I've seen the footage before, not sure where Laz gets that Russell played bad defense. Russell's defense was incredible in the 4th. Might have something to do with what the commentators are saying. It's easier to judge with the sound off, though you lose the emotion of it.

He was directly responsible for eliminating 7-9 points in the quarter. That's a lot for one quarter - just thinking of it from an offensive perspective. Russell's impact in the 4th was second to only West's.

As for the rebounds, Russell and Baylor had the most crucial rebounds of the quarter, but I wouldn't say Wilt's rebounds were uncontested; 2 of them were definitely contested.

Also, West was absolutely incredible, one of the best finals performances ever, but Havlicek should have been the fmvp. Given the heat of the moment and recency bias of these types of things, I understand why they gave it to West, but it was still the wrong choice. Hondo was incredible as well - 28/11/4 with outstanding defense - and he was on the winning team.

Russell was hiding for most of the period...no doubt due to his 5 fouls. Hell, even the stumble-bum Counts outrebounded and outscored him in the last few minutes. Watching the footage, I would argue that Counts was the better player (and he was awful overall BTW.) And the ONE time the Lakers went into a Chamberlain posting Russell, Wilt went right him around for an uncontested lay-up.

And again...TWO rebounds?

[ArbitraryWater]

I've seen the footage before, not sure where Laz gets that Russell played bad defense. Russell's defense was incredible in the 4th. Might have something to do with what the commentators are saying. It's easier to judge with the sound off, though you lose the emotion of it.

He was directly responsible for eliminating 7-9 points in the quarter. That's a lot for one quarter - just thinking of it from an offensive perspective. Russell's impact in the 4th was second to only West's.

As for the rebounds, Russell and Baylor had the most crucial rebounds of the quarter, but I wouldn't say Wilt's rebounds were uncontested; 2 of them were definitely contested.

Also, West was absolutely incredible, one of the best finals performances ever, but Havlicek should have been the fmvp. Given the heat of the moment and recency bias of these types of things, I understand why they gave it to West, but it was still the wrong choice. Hondo was incredible as well - 28/11/4 with outstanding defense - and he was on the winning team.

Good post :applause:

Havlicek definitely should have been FMVP

[B-hoop]

Russell was hiding for most of the period...no doubt due to his 5 fouls. Hell, even the stumble-bum Counts outrebounded and outscored him in the last few minutes. Watching the footage, I would argue that Counts was the better player (and he was awful overall BTW.) And the ONE time the Lakers went into a Chamberlain posting Russell, Wilt went right him around for an uncontested lay-up.

And again...TWO rebounds?

Why did you ignore my post? Show where in the footage Russel was hiding..

[LAZERUSS]

Why did you ignore my post? Show where in the footage Russel was hiding..

I don't have to give specifics...

you don't even see him anywhere in sight in half of the footage.

BTW, just how did the Lakers knock 16 points off of that 17 point deficit in the last 9 minutes...with Russell's "impact."

[DatAsh]

Why did you ignore my post? Show where in the footage Russel was hiding..

The 2 contests he clearly avoided were the Chamberlain layup and a West fast-break pull up. Both times he made the correct play, as either of those would have likely resulted in a foul had he tried to contest.

Still, he had 2 blocks , 2-3 highly altered shots(which would have otherwise probably gone in), and a crucial offensive rebound. I'm not sure how much more you could expect from someone on the defensive end in 1 quarter of play, especially someone playing with 5 fouls. That's like 7-9 eliminated points. If someone scored 7-9 points in one quarter, would we really be saying they were "hiding" on offense?

[LAZERUSS]

The only 2 contests he clearly avoided were the Chamberlain layup and a West fast-break pull up. Both times he made the correct play, as either of those would have likely resulted in a foul had he tried to contest.

Still, he had 2 blocks , 2-3 highly altered shots(which would have otherwise probably gone in), and a crucial offensive rebound. I'm not sure how much more you could expect from someone on the defensive end in 1 quarter of play, especially someone playing with 5 fouls. That's like 7-9 eliminated points. If someone scored 7-9 points in one quarter, would we really be saying they were "hiding" on offense?

Just curious...

can you explain Russell's overall impact in the last NINE minutes of that game? The Lakers knocked 16 points off of a 17 point deficit in the last nine minutes.

[DatAsh]

Just curious...

can you explain Russell's overall impact in the last NINE minutes of that game? The Lakers knocked 16 points off of a 17 point deficit in the last nine minutes.

West was on fire. Truly incredible display.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Even with one of his teammates averaging 38 PPG(!) on 49% FG then putting up 42 points in game7, Wilt wasn't "able" to win this against the Celtics lead by (an old) Russell. Think about that...

Jerry averaged more 26.2 PPG(!!!!) than Wilt :bowdown: That man didn't deserve to lose, I would've given the FMVP to Hondo because he was great and they've won but West was a beast.

[LAZERUSS]

Even with one of his teammates averaging 38 PPG(!) on 49% FG then putting up 42 points in game7, was Wilt "able" to win this against the Celtics lead by (an old) Russell. Think about that...

Jerry averaged 26.2 PPG(!!!!) than Wilt :bowdown: That man didn't deserve to lose, I would've given the FMVP to Hondo because he was great and they've won but West was a beast.

How about Russell's teammates, Hondo and Sam Jones?

BTW, Chamberlain led his '72 team to a 69-13 record, chopped down a peak KAJ in the WCF's, crushed the HOF-laden Knicks in the Finals...en route to LA's first-ever title, and winning the FMVP in the process,...in a post-season in which West shot .376 from the field, and an even worse, .325 in the Finals?

[millwad]

How about Russell's teammates, Hondo and Sam Jones?

BTW, Chamberlain led his '72 team to a 69-13 record, chopped down a peak KAJ in the WCF's, crushed the HOF-laden Knicks in the Finals...en route to LA's first-ever title, and winning the FMVP in the process,...in a post-season in which West shot .376 from the field, and an even worse, .325 in the Finals?

He got freaking crushed by Kareem, stop lying.

Kareem averaged 40 points on 50% shooting in the regular season in '72 and then he outscored Wilt by 23 points PER GAME with better FG%, outassisted Wilt and shot FT's twice as good as Wilt.

You are the first to spam about Wilt's teammates but are you going to claim that Wilt's teammates weren't busted up in '72?

God damn clown.

[millwad]

Russell was hiding for most of the period...no doubt due to his 5 fouls. Hell, even the stumble-bum Counts outrebounded and outscored him in the last few minutes. Watching the footage, I would argue that Counts was the better player (and he was awful overall BTW.) And the ONE time the Lakers went into a Chamberlain posting Russell, Wilt went right him around for an uncontested lay-up.

And again...TWO rebounds?

You're so fake and you play with words, first you say that Counts sucked in those last few minutes and then you go "he outrebounded and outscored Russell". Haha, you change your opinion so much just so it will fit your agenda. So if Countrs outscored and outrebounded Russell then it was a great choice by Breda to not play Wilt since he was "injured".

[LAZERUSS]

You're so fake and you play with words, first you say that Counts sucked in those last few minutes and then you go "he outrebounded and outscored Russell". Haha, you change your opinion so much just so it will fit your agenda. So if Countrs outscored and outrebounded Russell then it was a great choice by Breda to not play Wilt since he was "injured".

Counts missed a key shot, and had a key turnover late, and generally was awful. STILL, he outplayed RUSSELL in the last three minutes. So what? Chamberlain was crushing Russell before he left (18-6 in points, 27-21 in rebounds, and 7-8 from the field to Russell's 2-7.) Oh, and for the game, Counts shot 4-13 from the field.

But please play again...

[millwad]

Counts missed a key shot, and had a key turnover late, and generally was awful. STILL, he outplayed RUSSELL in the last three minutes. So what? Chamberlain was crushing Russell before he left (18-6 in points, 27-21 in rebounds, and 7-8 from the field to Russell's 2-7.) Oh, and for the game, Counts shot 4-13 from the field.

But please play again...

It's just how fake you are, you can't have it both ways. First you go, Counts sucked and now he suddenly outplayed Russell, which he didn't.

Stop playing with words, Chamberlain wasn't doing shit in the 4th, almost every time he got the ball he passed it out.

[Miller for 3]

When Wilt's teammates do bad, it's because they suck and nothing to do with Russell's defense.

When Wilt Chumperlame did bad, it's because his teammates suck and nothing to with Russell's defense.

When KAJ torchs him, it's because his teammates suck and Wilt was doing intangible stuff (lol)

We get it, Wilt always lost and played awful when it mattered because of his teammates. Scrubs like Arizin, Cunningham, Greer, West, Baylor, Goodrich, etc. always holding Wilt back :facepalm

[LAZERUSS]

When Wilt's teammates do bad, it's because they suck and nothing to do with Russell's defense.

When Wilt Chumperlame did bad, it's because his teammates suck and nothing to with Russell's defense.

When KAJ torchs him, it's because his teammates suck and Wilt was doing intangible stuff (lol)

We get it, Wilt always lost and played awful when it mattered because of his teammates. Scrubs like Arizin, Cunningham, Greer, West, Baylor, Goodrich, etc. always holding Wilt back :facepalm

Chamberlain's teammates, whether the very few good ones that he actually played with, or the many bad ones that he was actually handicapped with, were NOTORIOUS for playing poorly in their post-seasons.

Having said that, though, the MAJORITY of them played the best basketball of their careers, WITH Wilt. Players like Greer, Gola, Meschery, Goodrich, McMillian, and yes, West, who managed to have the two best post-seasons of his entire career, WITH Wilt. Unfortunately, even West crumbled after that. The rest of those players,...generally were badly outplayed by the opposing teams in the post-season.

BTW, while Russell had TONS of help in defending Chamberlain,...we have several game recaps in which Chamberlain was not only defending Russell, but he was also defending players like Heinsohn and Sam Jones (multiple times, BTW.)

Kareem SELDOM "torched" Wilt. He took a MASSIVE amount of shots against Wilt...FAR more than he did against anyone else, but he was also WAY BELOW his normal efficiency in doing so. And luckily for Kareem, he never faced a PRIME Chamberlain, either. If a 35-36 year old Wilt could routinely block Kareem's shots (including the "unblockable" sky-hook), then one can only imagine what a mid-60's 290 lb athletic Wilt would have been volleyballing that shot with.

[Asukal]

:cry: :cry: :cry:
http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/54793030.jpg

[swagga]

Chamberlain's teammates, whether the very few good ones that he actually played with, or the many bad ones that he was actually handicapped with, were NOTORIOUS for playing poorly in their post-seasons.

Having said that, though, the MAJORITY of them played the best basketball of their careers, WITH Wilt. Players like Greer, Gola, Meschery, Goodrich, McMillian, and yes, West, who managed to have the two best post-seasons of his entire career, WITH Wilt. Unfortunately, even West crumbled after that. The rest of those players,...generally were badly outplayed by the opposing teams in the post-season.

BTW, while Russell had TONS of help in defending Chamberlain,...we have several game recaps in which Chamberlain was not only defending Russell, but he was also defending players like Heinsohn and Sam Jones (multiple times, BTW.)

Kareem SELDOM "torched" Wilt. He took a MASSIVE amount of shots against Wilt...FAR more than he did against anyone else, but he was also WAY BELOW his normal efficiency in doing so. And luckily for Kareem, he never faced a PRIME Chamberlain, either. If a 35-36 year old Wilt could routinely block Kareem's shots (including the "unblockable" sky-hook), then one can only imagine what a mid-60's 290 lb athletic Wilt would have been volleyballing that shot with.

lmao this troll is out of control. Routinely? Really bruh?. Wilt blocked the skyhook twice in his entire career and one of those was a goaltend. By the same logic wilt routinely won championships against russell.

[swagga]

http://static.gamespot.com/uploads/original/378/3789400/2384304-4390957522-CaryG.gif

he extra mad, I haven't seen him slipping so badly in one thread for a long long time. The shit he's posting is absolutely ridiculous even by his standards.

The other wilt brigade stans are wisely sitting this one out but laz is a true teamplayer and he is out here taking the L for the team :roll: Even his boy wilt could learn a thing or two about leadership from laz. :lol

[Dr.J4ever]

he extra mad, I haven't seen him slipping so badly in one thread for a long long time. The shit he's posting is absolutely ridiculous even by his standards.

The other wilt brigade stans are wisely sitting this one out but laz is a true teamplayer and he is out here taking the L for the team :roll: Even his boy wilt could learn a thing or two about leadership from laz. :lol

:lol

This is a good thread because this event in history('69 Finals) reveals many truths in basketball lore.

One of which is that Russell was the greatest winner in NBA history, and the guy just won and won and won. No matter the difficulty and great obstacles in his way, Russell found a way for his Celtics to reach the mountain top.

In this particular case, age and a heavily underdog Celtic team, playing against one of the most stacked teams in NBA history wasn't enough to stop the great Celtic center. The playing coach defeated a legendary Laker team with prime time players Wilt, West, and Baylor. At that time in history, all 3 of those players were easily top 5 on most goat lists. And yet, the Celtic won. Amazing!

Wilt apologists have to resort to denigrating Russel's offensive numbers, while downplaying his assists totals. It's funny how Russel's numbers are compared to Wilt head to head, as if Russel's role and purpose on his team isn't totally different than Wilt's.

Russel's game began and ended with willing his teams to win. Period. Whatever it took. His game was defense and rebounding, and intangibles on offense. His dominance playing his game ALLOWED great teammates who played the OTHER facets of basketball to flourish. That was the beauty of Bill Russel.

Wilt, despite playing with legends, never tended to allow individual players to all shine enough times at the right times. Russel was the polar opposite of Wilt.

If winning is the primary objective of an NBA team, and it should be, then Bill Russel was the greatest player of all time. This 1969 Finals reveals this to an honest mind. A last throes Celtic team, playing on sheer pride and fumes, defeating a loaded with prime time legends Laker team in Game 7 in their own court.

Can it be any bigger than that? Russel is the greatest of all time!

[Marchesk]

lmao this troll is out of control. Routinely? Really bruh?. Wilt blocked the skyhook twice in his entire career and one of those was a goaltend. By the same logic wilt routinely won championships against russell.

Dude, he blocked it twice in one possession. I'm pretty sure that wasn't the only time. It's like watching Lebron defer twice in the last minute of the game and then concluding that he never deferred the rest of his career.

[Marchesk]

If winning is the primary objective of an NBA team, and it should be, then Bill Russel was the greatest player of all time. This 1969 Finals reveals this to an honest mind. A last throes Celtic team, playing on sheer pride and fumes, defeating a loaded with prime time legends Laker team in Game 7 in their own court.

Can it be any bigger than that? Russel is the greatest of all time!

That being said, Russell averaged 9 ppg on under 40% shooting. Hondo was the man. As for primes, neither Wilt nor Baylor were in their primes. Wilt was 32 and no longer in the leading scorer role. Baylor was 34 and definitely past his peak days.

[LAZERUSS]

lmao this troll is out of control. Routinely? Really bruh?. Wilt blocked the skyhook twice in his entire career and one of those was a goaltend. By the same logic wilt routinely won championships against russell.

We have Wilt, in just seven of their 28 career H2H's, with 28 KNOWN blocked shots on Kareem. That is 1/4th of of their H2H's. We also KNOW that Chamberlain blocked the skyhook in his very FIRST game against KAJ, so that is a KNOWN THREE.

The REALITY was, Chamberlain was ROUTINELY blocking the skyhook. In fact, it was so routine, that it rarely mentioned in his block totals against Kareem. In the '72WCF's, Wilt blocked 13 of Kareem's shots in just three games, out of a known total of 31 blocked shots spanning four known games.

Now, either Kareem was afraid to shoot the skyhook, because he knew it would get blocked, and resorted to other shots that Wilt was routinely blocking...or else Wilt was routinely blocking the skyhook.

Now, YOU go do some actual RESEARCH before you post your ignorance here again.

[LAZERUSS]

:lol

This is a good thread because this event in history('69 Finals) reveals many truths in basketball lore.

One of which is that Russell was the greatest winner in NBA history, and the guy just won and won and won. No matter the difficulty and great obstacles in his way, Russell found a way for his Celtics to reach the mountain top.

In this particular case, age and a heavily underdog Celtic team, playing against one of the most stacked teams in NBA history wasn't enough to stop the great Celtic center. The playing coach defeated a legendary Laker team with prime time players Wilt, West, and Baylor. At that time in history, all 3 of those players were easily top 5 on most goat lists. And yet, the Celtic won. Amazing!

Wilt apologists have to resort to denigrating Russel's offensive numbers, while downplaying his assists totals. It's funny how Russel's numbers are compared to Wilt head to head, as if Russel's role and purpose on his team isn't totally different than Wilt's.

Russel's game began and ended with willing his teams to win. Period. Whatever it took. His game was defense and rebounding, and intangibles on offense. His dominance playing his game ALLOWED great teammates who played the OTHER facets of basketball to flourish. That was the beauty of Bill Russel.

Wilt, despite playing with legends, never tended to allow individual players to all shine enough times at the right times. Russel was the polar opposite of Wilt.

If winning is the primary objective of an NBA team, and it should be, then Bill Russel was the greatest player of all time. This 1969 Finals reveals this to an honest mind. A last throes Celtic team, playing on sheer pride and fumes, defeating a loaded with prime time legends Laker team in Game 7 in their own court.

Can it be any bigger than that? Russel is the greatest of all time!

There is so much wrong with this...where to begin?

The '69 Lakers were NOT a STACKED team. In fact, in an expansion year, their 55-27 record was nothing to write home about. The Bullets went 57-25 that year for cryingoutloud.

They COULD have been, had EXPANSION not robbed them of HOFer Gail Goodrich. The Wilt-bashers love to claim that Chamberlain's trade "only" improved the Lakers by three games from their '68 team. First of all, to get Wilt, LA had to trade three players, including all-star guard Archie Clark, and starting center Darrall Imhoff. Those two accounted for 29 points and 15 rebounds per game in '68. BUT, again, the Lakers also lost THE prized player in the expansion draft, in Goodrich. So, Wilt basically had to replace 42 ppg and 18 rpg from LA's '68 team.

How important was Goodrich? West missed 31 games in the '68 season, but with Clark and Goodrich filling in for him, the Lakers would go 19-12.

And again, West would miss 21 games in Wilt's first season in LA, too. Except, the Lakers had NO ONE to replace him. Clark had been replaced by journeyman Johnny Egan, who actually COST the Lakers the title in game four (well, it was Van Breda Kolff who had Egan handling the ball), when, with LA leading the series, 2-1, and leading in game four by 88-87, and with the ball, and only a few seconds remaining, EGAN was stripped, and then SAM JONES hit the game-winning shot, while falling down. That ONE play cost the Lakers a 4-1 series romp. Instead of now leading 3-1, and then blowing Boston apart in game five, which they did, it was only 3-2, and not 4-1.

Still, even with West's extended absence in '69, the Lakers went 12-9 without him. AND, they went 6-0 in the games that Baylor missed. How? Obviously, Chamberlain was THE reason.

FURTHERMORE, the Lakers had ZERO depth in '69... thanks to the Wilt trade and expansion. How about Boston? as ALWAYS, they could go 8-10 deep (rookie Don Chaney played 20 games that season.) How DEEP were the Celtics? Take a look at that game seven of the Finals. EM BRYANT scored 20 points. Em fukking Bryant scored 20 points in a game seven for the Celtics!

Meanwhile, the Lakers had a prime West, a shackled Wilt, and a shell in Baylor...and that was IT. Add the incompetent COACH into the mix, and the Lakers were doomed.

It's funny how WILT gets blamed for the '69 Finals, when it was BAYLOR who was had four games of 4-18, 2-14 (and 1-5 from the line...in a one point loss), 4-13, and then a game seven of 8-22 from the field. In those FOUR games, three of them losses, Baylor shot a combined 18-67, or .269! For the entire series, Baylor shot .397. And how about this...Baylor was the WORST shooting Laker player on that entire roster in the entire '69 playoffs (.385.)

Oh, and West was not without his chokes in that series, either. In the game three 111-105 loss, he and Baylor combined to shoot 1-14 from the field in the 4th quarter. And even in his brilliant game seven performance, he missed FOUR FTs (TWO in the 4th quarter...of a 2 point loss), AND, he missed more shots from the floor, than what he made (14-29 from the field.)

Again, instead of blaming Wilt, why not question the ridiculous strategy of VBK, who had Chamberlain playing the high post, and had his teammates ignoring him, and shooting bricks in the entire series? And obviously the strategy of having West shoot 30 times a game didn't work out so well, either. Meanwhile, Chamberlain averaged EIGHT FGAs per game in that series.

And, in game seven, if you remove Wilt's 7-8 FG/FGA, and Russell's 2-7 FG/FGA, Russell's TEAMMATES outshot Wilt's by a .477 to .360 margin. Looking at that stunning stat, and you have to wonder just how in the hell the Lakers only lost that game seven by two points.

And before someone jumps up and claims that it was Russell's defense that limited Wilt to EIGHT shots per game...Wilt had post-seasons against Russell when he was routinely taking 25-30 FGAs per game. Did a 35 year old Russell suddenly figure Wilt out after 136 previous H2H games?

Also, how come Wilt's new coach in the very next season had Chamberlain leading the league in scoring (before he shredded his knee)? And how come, even on one leg, was Chamberlain scoring 23 ppg on a .625 FG% in the '70 Finals?

Russell was a great "winner", but he certainly wasn't the key Celtic player in the '69 Finals. Hondo nearly matched West at 28 ppg, and Sam Jones was not only scoring 19 ppg, he hit his usual game-winning shot in the series (in that game four.)

The REALITY was, in their ten years in the league together, Wilt only played on TWO teams that were the equal of Russell's... the '67 and '68 Sixers. And the '67 team just annihilated Boston. And the '68 team would have done the same if they had not been blown to bits by injuries (including Wilt, himself.) Even with over HALF of their key players injured, or missing the series, they still only lost a game seven by four points. A healthy Sixer team would have repeated their '67 domination.

The '69 Lakers were probably equal on paper...other than depth...but Baylor was simply AWFUL, and his career would essentially be over after the next season. And then there was the "VBK Factor"...an incompetent coach, making a series of poor decisions, which ultimately cost him his coaching career, and the city of LA their first ever title (which WILT would finally bring to them three years later.)

[swagga]

Dude, he blocked it twice in one possession. I'm pretty sure that wasn't the only time. It's like watching Lebron defer twice in the last minute of the game and then concluding that he never deferred the rest of his career.

solid reasoning :lol .

[La Frescobaldi]

lmao this troll is out of control. Routinely? Really bruh?. Wilt blocked the skyhook twice in his entire career and one of those was a goaltend. By the same logic wilt routinely won championships against russell.


Early in his career Kareem learned how to shoot over and around the greatest center he would ever face - the rest of the NBA had no chance against Jabbar after he'd been through the fires of Chamberlain. Kareem went through the most ferocious, desperate schooling ever attended by a center. Nobody, not even Russell, ever challenged Wilt Chamberlain.... except Jabbar.

Only Walton, Chamberlain and Moses Malone outplayed Jabbar over a few games at a time, and of the three, only Malone dominated him statistically. Walton & Chamberlain beat him by playing like Bill Russell - stop the rest of the team, and just slow down the great Jabbar, get in his head.

Those matchups were some of the highest levels of ball I've ever seen, those two squaring off like two bulls in mating season, Chamberlain much smarter on the court, over and unders, sweeps and hooks and slams!! and his huge defensive presence...... but his legs aging, while Jabbar was in his glorious best days, fleet and already building his amazing offense.

But you are full of baloney if you think Chamberlain only blocked that hook twice in his career. That is pure nonsense.
#13 blocked the skyhook dozens of times.

[swagga]

We have Wilt, in just seven of their 28 career H2H's, with 28 KNOWN blocked shots on Kareem. That is 1/4th of of their H2H's. We also KNOW that Chamberlain blocked the skyhook in his very FIRST game against KAJ, so that is a KNOWN THREE.

The REALITY was, Chamberlain was ROUTINELY blocking the skyhook. In fact, it was so routine, that it rarely mentioned in his block totals against Kareem. In the '72WCF's, Wilt blocked 13 of Kareem's shots in just three games, out of a known total of 31 blocked shots spanning four known games.

Now, either Kareem was afraid to shoot the skyhook, because he knew it would get blocked, and resorted to other shots that Wilt was routinely blocking...or else Wilt was routinely blocking the skyhook.

Now, YOU go do some actual RESEARCH before you post your ignorance here again.

lemme refresh your memory there old timer. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=170340
[QUOTE=some_dude_with_a_lot_of_time]
As I promised before two weeks I published the data collected by me:

Regular season

[swagga]

Early in his career Kareem learned how to shoot over and around the greatest center he would ever face - the rest of the NBA had no chance against Jabbar after he'd been through the fires of Chamberlain. Kareem went through the most ferocious, desperate schooling ever attended by a center. Nobody, not even Russell, ever challenged Wilt Chamberlain.... except Jabbar.

Only Walton, Chamberlain and Moses Malone outplayed Jabbar over a few games at a time, and of the three, only Malone dominated him statistically. Walton & Chamberlain beat him by playing like Bill Russell - stop the rest of the team, and just slow down the great Jabbar, get in his head.

Those matchups were some of the highest levels of ball I've ever seen, those two squaring off like two bulls in mating season, Chamberlain much smarter on the court, over and unders, sweeps and hooks and slams!! and his huge defensive presence...... but his legs aging, while Jabbar was in his glorious best days, fleet and already building his amazing offense.

But you are full of baloney if you think Chamberlain only blocked that hook twice in his career. That is pure nonsense.
#13 blocked the skyhook dozens of times.

check the H2H in the previous post.
In their first 10 head to head games you have:
Wilt: 22.8ppg, 18.2rpg, 2.6ast, 8.7fg, 17.4fga, 50%fg, 3W
KAJ: 26.7ppg, 15.7rpg, 2.3ast, 11.4fg, 24.3fga, 46%fg, 7W
some schooling alright.. wilt was also on that stacked LA team with west and baylor.

I didn't say wilt blocked that shot only 2 times, I'm saying that he didn't block it on a regular basis.

[swagga]

Early in his career Kareem learned how to shoot over and around the greatest center he would ever face - the rest of the NBA had no chance against Jabbar after he'd been through the fires of Chamberlain. Kareem went through the most ferocious, desperate schooling ever attended by a center. Nobody, not even Russell, ever challenged Wilt Chamberlain.... except Jabbar.

Only Walton, Chamberlain and Moses Malone outplayed Jabbar over a few games at a time, and of the three, only Malone dominated him statistically. Walton & Chamberlain beat him by playing like Bill Russell - stop the rest of the team, and just slow down the great Jabbar, get in his head.

Those matchups were some of the highest levels of ball I've ever seen, those two squaring off like two bulls in mating season, Chamberlain much smarter on the court, over and unders, sweeps and hooks and slams!! and his huge defensive presence...... but his legs aging, while Jabbar was in his glorious best days, fleet and already building his amazing offense.

But you are full of baloney if you think Chamberlain only blocked that hook twice in his career. That is pure nonsense.
#13 blocked the skyhook dozens of times.

h2h rings says otherwise, it's funny that you write this in a thread about 1969 finals tho when an over the hill russell matched chamberlain for production to pull one of the biggest upsets in finals history.

[ArbitraryWater]

That being said, Russell averaged 9 ppg on under 40% shooting. Hondo was the man. As for primes, neither Wilt nor Baylor were in their primes. Wilt was 32 and no longer in the leading scorer role. Baylor was 34 and definitely past his peak days.

Wilt in his 10th season wasn't in his prime anymore? :biggums:

[LAZERUSS]

lemme refresh your memory there old timer. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=170340


I'll even do the H2H for your retired ass:
wilt: 16.1ppg, 18.2rpg, 3.3ast, 6.1fg, 11.7 fga, 51%fg, 48.6%FT 14 wins
KAJ: 31.2ppg, 16.7rpg, 3.9ast, 13.5fg, 29.1fga, 46%fg, 71.6%FT 14 wins
wilt also had the better teams.

wilt dominated doe :lol Scared kareem's ass into 31ppg doe :lol :biggums:

Suddenly you are no longer claiming that Wilt only blocked TWO of Kareem's sky-hooks, but instead post his scoring? Notice anything unusual about those 28 games, especially the first one? 27 of those 28 games came against a 34-36 year old, playing on a surgically repaired knee. In the only H2H in which Wilt was healthy (albeit KAJ was a rookie), he easily outplayed Kareem (Alcindor) in every facet of the game.

BTW, that ONE H2H game came early in Chamberlain's 69-70 season. It was game five in his first nine games that season. So what, you ask? This came just a few months after the OP...the '69 Finals. Before the start of the 69-70 season, Wilt's NEW coach (yes, Van Breda Kolff quit just before being fired,...almost immediately after that '69 coaching debacle)...went to Chamberlain, and asked him to become the focal point of the offense.

What happened next? In the first nine games of the 69-70 season, a rejuvenated Wilt came out on fire. He was leading the league in scoring at 32.2 ppg, and on a .579 FG% (to go along with 20 rpg.) And his scoring was not "inflated" by one or two big games, either, but rather game-after-game of pure dominance. In those nine games, he put up games of 33, 35, 37 (against 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle), 38 (against reigning MVP Wes Unseld), 42 (against Bob Rule...go ahead and look up his short career), and 43 points. Oh, and that 25 point game against Kareem, on 9-14 shooting, and 25 rebounds.

In fact, in that ninth game, Chamberlain had played 28 minutes, and scored his 33 points on 13-14 shooting, with over five minutes left in the 3rd period. He was likely on his way to yet another 40, and perhaps even 50 point game. That is when disaster struck, and he blew out his knee. BTW, it was the SAME knee that he had injured in the last few minutes of game seven of the previous year's finals.

Now, all of that is interesting, don't you think? Just the year before, his previous coach, the "Butcher" Van Breda Kolff, had asked Wilt to play the high post, so that an aging Baylor could roam the baseline (and shoot horribly in doing so.) VBK had even BENCHED Wilt at times during the season, and yes, of course, he essentially did the same thing in the last 3-4 minutes of that game seven in the Finals.

But back to MY original argument. Wilt did indeed block the "unblockable" skyhook, and did so many times. Again, a 35 year old Chamberlain blocked 13 of Kareem's shots in just a three game span in the '72 WCF's. And again, in seven known games, Wilt blocked 28 of Kareem's shots. And the two went H2H in 21 more games...so there is no telling how many more of Kareem's shots (and skyhooks) that he blocked.

Oh, and in those 28 H2H games, 27 of which were from a 34-36 year old Wilt, and on that surgically repaired knee...a PEAK Kareem shot .464 from the field. Keep in mind that KAJ shot .559 over the course of his career (and as a point of reference, in his 23 career H2H's with a 22-25 year old Hakeem...a 38-41 year old Kareem shot .607.)

In the '72 WCF's, Kareem averaged 33 FGAs per game to score his 34 ppg against Wilt. He shot .457 over the course of the entire series, and in the last four pivotal games of that series, he shot...get this... .414! In fact, in his last TEN STRAIGHT games against essentially a 36 year old Wilt...a PEAK Kareem shot .434 overall.

Again, what we didn't get to witness, was a PRIME Chamberlain, circa the mid-60's, going up against a PEAK Kareem.

[LAZERUSS]

h2h rings says otherwise, it's funny that you write this in a thread about 1969 finals tho when an over the hill russell matched chamberlain for production to pull one of the biggest upsets in finals history.

What is your definition of "matched?" Scoring? In a series in which Wilt took EIGHT shots per game...and STILL outscored Russell, who took MORE shots from the floor in that series, than Wilt did? The Wilt, who as always, badly outshot Russell (by a .500 to .397 margin)? The Wilt who, as always, pounded Russell on the glass (by a 25.0 rpg to 21.4 rpg margin.) And the Wilt who badly outplayed Russell in that game seven (outscoring Russell, 18-6; outshooting Russell from the floor, 7-8 to 2-7; outscoring Russell from the line, 4-2; and outrebounded Russell, 27-21)...all in five minutes less playing time (thanks to his coach.)?

And, this was, without question, Chamberlain's worst post-season H2H series with Russell in their 10 years in the league together.

[LAZERUSS]

check the H2H in the previous post.
In their first 10 head to head games you have:
Wilt: 22.8ppg, 18.2rpg, 2.6ast, 8.7fg, 17.4fga, 50%fg, 3W
KAJ: 26.7ppg, 15.7rpg, 2.3ast, 11.4fg, 24.3fga, 46%fg, 7W
some schooling alright.. wilt was also on that stacked LA team with west and baylor.

I didn't say wilt blocked that shot only 2 times, I'm saying that he didn't block it on a regular basis.

Yes, yes you did...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10577921&postcount=71



lmao this troll is out of control. Routinely? Really bruh?. Wilt blocked the skyhook twice in his entire career and one of those was a goaltend. By the same logic wilt routinely won championships against russell.

And BTW, that one was a legitimate block...and at the apex of Kareem's skyhook. Only Wilt was capable of that.

[swagga]

What is your definition of "matched?" Scoring? In a series in which Wilt took EIGHT shots per game...and STILL outscored Russell, who took MORE shots from the floor in that series, than Wilt did? The Wilt, who as always, badly outshot Russell (by a .500 to .397 margin)? The Wilt who, as always, pounded Russell on the glass (by a 25.0 rpg to 21.4 rpg margin.) And the Wilt who badly outplayed Russell in that game seven (outscoring Russell, 18-6; outshooting Russell from the floor, 7-8 to 2-7; outscoring Russell from the line, 4-2; and outrebounded Russell, 27-21)...all in five minutes less playing time (thanks to his coach.)?

And, this was, without question, Chamberlain's worst post-season H2H series with Russell in their 10 years in the league together.

so wilt outplayed russell.
west outplayed hondo
and they still lost? with a much better team? How can that be? :lol

[swagga]

Suddenly you are no longer claiming that Wilt only blocked TWO of Kareem's sky-hooks, but instead post his scoring? Notice anything unusual about those 28 games, especially the first one? 27 of those 28 games came against a 34-36 year old, playing on a surgically repaired knee. In the only H2H in which Wilt was healthy (albeit KAJ was a rookie), he easily outplayed Kareem (Alcindor) in every facet of the game.

BTW, that ONE H2H game came early in Chamberlain's 69-70 season. It was game five in his first nine games that season. So what, you ask? This came just a few months after the OP...the '69 Finals. Before the start of the 69-70 season, Wilt's NEW coach (yes, Van Breda Kolff quit just before being fired,...almost immediately after that '69 coaching debacle)...went to Chamberlain, and asked him to become the focal point of the offense.

What happened next? In the first nine games of the 69-70 season, a rejuvenated Wilt came out on fire. He was leading the league in scoring at 32.2 ppg, and on a .579 FG% (to go along with 20 rpg.) And his scoring was not "inflated" by one or two big games, either, but rather game-after-game of pure dominance. In those nine games, he put up games of 33, 35, 37 (against 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle), 38 (against reigning MVP Wes Unseld), 42 (against Bob Rule...go ahead and look up his short career), and 43 points. Oh, and that 25 point game against Kareem, on 9-14 shooting, and 25 rebounds.

In fact, in that ninth game, Chamberlain had played 28 minutes, and scored his 33 points on 13-14 shooting, with over five minutes left in the 3rd period. He was likely on his way to yet another 40, and perhaps even 50 point game. That is when disaster struck, and he blew out his knee. BTW, it was the SAME knee that he had injured in the last few minutes of game seven of the previous year's finals.

Now, all of that is interesting, don't you think? Just the year before, his previous coach, the "Butcher" Van Breda Kolff, had asked Wilt to play the high post, so that an aging Baylor could roam the baseline (and shoot horribly in doing so.) VBK had even BENCHED Wilt at times during the season, and yes, of course, he essentially did the same thing in the last 3-4 minutes of that game seven in the Finals.

But back to MY original argument. Wilt did indeed block the "unblockable" skyhook, and did so many times. Again, a 35 year old Chamberlain blocked 13 of Kareem's shots in just a three game span in the '72 WCF's. And again, in seven known games, Wilt blocked 28 of Kareem's shots. And the two went H2H in 21 more games...so there is no telling how many more of Kareem's shots (and skyhooks) that he blocked.

Oh, and in those 28 H2H games, 27 of which were from a 34-36 year old Wilt, and on that surgically repaired knee...a PEAK Kareem shot .464 from the field. Keep in mind that KAJ shot .559 over the course of his career (and as a point of reference, in his 23 career H2H's with a 22-25 year old Hakeem...a 38-41 year old Kareem shot .607.)

In the '72 WCF's, Kareem averaged 33 FGAs per game to score his 34 ppg against Wilt. He shot .457 over the course of the entire series, and in the last four pivotal games of that series, he shot...get this... .414! In fact, in his last TEN STRAIGHT games against essentially a 36 year old Wilt...a PEAK Kareem shot .434 overall.

Again, what we didn't get to witness, was a PRIME Chamberlain, circa the mid-60's, going up against a PEAK Kareem.

oldtimer, KAJ dropped 30+@46%fg on chamberlain on the regular. let it go, it's bad for your heart.

[swagga]

Yes, yes you did...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10577921&postcount=71




And BTW, that one was a legitimate block...and at the apex of Kareem's skyhook. Only Wilt was capable of that.

ball was going down. also dwight howard and javale mcgee both have the reach and hops to block that :lol .. doesn't mean shit.
When somebody drops 30+ on you on the regular you try to find the positive side of things. You got a rebound more, you blocked a shot, you shot 2% better from the field.... you'll feel better in no time it don't matter dude trashed you overall :roll:

[swagga]

furthermore, it stings most when a young blood straight outta school comes in and does you dirty when you think you are the man. 7 losses in the first 10 games, while having a better team ?!?!? . ouch bruh, it gotta hurt wilt till now.

KAJ opinion on wilt: "Wilt Chumperlane":lol

[LAZERUSS]

:lol

This is a good thread because this event in history('69 Finals) reveals many truths in basketball lore.

One of which is that Russell was the greatest winner in NBA history, and the guy just won and won and won. No matter the difficulty and great obstacles in his way, Russell found a way for his Celtics to reach the mountain top.

In this particular case, age and a heavily underdog Celtic team, playing against one of the most stacked teams in NBA history wasn't enough to stop the great Celtic center. The playing coach defeated a legendary Laker team with prime time players Wilt, West, and Baylor. At that time in history, all 3 of those players were easily top 5 on most goat lists. And yet, the Celtic won. Amazing!

Wilt apologists have to resort to denigrating Russel's offensive numbers, while downplaying his assists totals. It's funny how Russel's numbers are compared to Wilt head to head, as if Russel's role and purpose on his team isn't totally different than Wilt's.

Russel's game began and ended with willing his teams to win. Period. Whatever it took. His game was defense and rebounding, and intangibles on offense. His dominance playing his game ALLOWED great teammates who played the OTHER facets of basketball to flourish. That was the beauty of Bill Russel.

Wilt, despite playing with legends, never tended to allow individual players to all shine enough times at the right times. Russel was the polar opposite of Wilt.

If winning is the primary objective of an NBA team, and it should be, then Bill Russel was the greatest player of all time. This 1969 Finals reveals this to an honest mind. A last throes Celtic team, playing on sheer pride and fumes, defeating a loaded with prime time legends Laker team in Game 7 in their own court.

Can it be any bigger than that? Russel is the greatest of all time!

Russell's TEAMs beat Wilt's TEAM's FOUR times in GAME SEVEN's, and by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points. In the first two of those seven game series, Chamberlain was playing with essentially last place rosters that he had inherited. And in those two series, Chamberlain just crushed Russell.

And, of course, Wilt's teammates were just AWFUL in all FOUR of those seven game series.

As for the nonsense that Wilt "never tended to allow individual players to all shine enough times at the right times"...what about the '69 Finals? You know, the one in which Jerry West took 30 FGAs per game, and won a FMVP?

As for the rest, give me the examples in which Chamberlain was "holding those players back." You mean, like his '66 season...when he averaged 28.3 ppg on a .473 FG% in his nine regular season H2H's with Boston, and his TEAM went 6-3 against them? Then, in the EDF's, when Chamberlain averaged 28.0 ppg on a .509 FG% against Boston...and his teammates collectively shot .352 against the Celtics in the entire series, in a 4-1 series loss?

Or his teammates shooting .365, .373, .343, and .360 in those game seven's against Boston...and losing by those slimmest of margins? Like Hal Greer going 8-25 from the field in a game seven? Or Paul Arizin going 4-22 from the floor in a game seven? Or Chet Walker going 8-22 from the field in a game seven? Or Elgin Baylor going 8-22 from the field in a game seven?

BTW, as poorly as Wilt's teammates played, almost to a man, they were better WITH Wilt, than withOUT him in the rest of their careers. Gola, Greer, Meschery, Jackson, Goodrich, and other's. And West arguably had the two greatest post-season's of his career, WITH, Wilt. And Arizin's production hardly missed a beat when rookie Wilt arrived. Oh, and how about Baylor? In his 67-68 season, he averaged 26 ppg. In his 68-69 season, and with Wilt, he "slipped" to 24.8 ppg. Of course, who knew that Baylor would then fall completely apart in that post-season?

The reality was, Russell simply had much better teammates nearly his entire career, and those teammates just crushed Wilt's.

As John Wooden said...swap rosters, and it would have been Wilt holding all those rings.

[LAZERUSS]

furthermore, it stings most when a young blood straight outta school comes in and does you dirty when you think you are the man. 7 losses in the first 10 games, while having a better team ?!?!? . ouch bruh, it gotta hurt wilt till now.

KAJ opinion on wilt: "Wilt Chumperlane":lol

Kareem's opinion on Wilt as recently as 2011...

http://lakersblog.latimes.com/lakersblog/2011/05/kareem-abdul-jabbar-questions-scottie-pippens-argument-that-lebron-james-may-be-the-greatest-player-.html




I have nothing but respect for you my friend as an athlete and knowledgeable basketball mind. But you are way off in your assessment of who is the greatest player of all time and the greatest scorer of all time. Your comments are off because of your limited perspective. You obviously never saw Wilt Chamberlain play who undoubtedly was the greatest scorer this game has ever known. When did MJ ever average 50.4 points per game plus 25.7 rebounds? (Wilt in the 1962 season when blocked shot statistics were not kept). We will never accurately know how many shots Wilt blocked. Oh, by the way in 1967 and 68, Wilt was a league leader in assists. Did MJ ever score 100 points in a game? How many times did MJ score more than 60 points in a game? MJ led the league in scoring in consecutive seasons for 10 years but he did this in an NBA that eventually expanded into 30 teams vs. when Wilt played and there were only 8 teams.


Every team had the opportunity to amass a solid nucleus. Only the cream of the basketball world got to play then. So MJ has to be appraised in perspective. His incredible athletic ability, charisma and leadership on the court helped to make basketball popular around the world -- no question about that. But in terms of greatness, MJ has to take a backseat to The Stilt.

[LAZERUSS]

furthermore, it stings most when a young blood straight outta school comes in and does you dirty when you think you are the man. 7 losses in the first 10 games, while having a better team ?!?!? . ouch bruh, it gotta hurt wilt till now.

KAJ opinion on wilt: "Wilt Chumperlane":lol

Kareem's opinion on Wilt as recently as 2011...

http://lakersblog.latimes.com/lakersblog/2011/05/kareem-abdul-jabbar-questions-scottie-pippens-argument-that-lebron-james-may-be-the-greatest-player-.html




I have nothing but respect for you my friend as an athlete and knowledgeable basketball mind. But you are way off in your assessment of who is the greatest player of all time and the greatest scorer of all time. Your comments are off because of your limited perspective. You obviously never saw Wilt Chamberlain play who undoubtedly was the greatest scorer this game has ever known. When did MJ ever average 50.4 points per game plus 25.7 rebounds? (Wilt in the 1962 season when blocked shot statistics were not kept). We will never accurately know how many shots Wilt blocked. Oh, by the way in 1967 and 68, Wilt was a league leader in assists. Did MJ ever score 100 points in a game? How many times did MJ score more than 60 points in a game? MJ led the league in scoring in consecutive seasons for 10 years but he did this in an NBA that eventually expanded into 30 teams vs. when Wilt played and there were only 8 teams.


Every team had the opportunity to amass a solid nucleus. Only the cream of the basketball world got to play then. So MJ has to be appraised in perspective. His incredible athletic ability, charisma and leadership on the court helped to make basketball popular around the world -- no question about that. But in terms of greatness, MJ has to take a backseat to The Stilt.

[ArbitraryWater]

Russell's TEAMs beat Wilt's TEAM's FOUR times in GAME SEVEN's, and by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points. In the first two of those seven game series, Chamberlain was playing with essentially last place rosters that he had inherited. And in those two series, Chamberlain just crushed Russell.

And, of course, Wilt's teammates were just AWFUL in all FOUR of those seven game series.

As for the nonsense that Wilt "never tended to allow individual players to all shine enough times at the right times"...what about the '69 Finals? You know, the one in which Jerry West took 30 FGAs per game, and won a FMVP?

As for the rest, give me the examples in which Chamberlain was "holding those players back." You mean, like his '66 season...when he averaged 28.3 ppg on a .473 FG% in his nine regular season H2H's with Boston, and his TEAM went 6-3 against them? Then, in the EDF's, when Chamberlain averaged 28.0 ppg on a .509 FG% against Boston...and his teammates collectively shot .352 against the Celtics in the entire series, in a 4-1 series loss?

Or his teammates shooting .365, .373, .343, and .360 in those game seven's against Boston...and losing by those slimmest of margins? Like Hal Greer going 8-25 from the field in a game seven? Or Paul Arizin going 4-22 from the floor in a game seven? Or Chet Walker going 8-22 from the field in a game seven? Or Elgin Baylor going 8-22 from the field in a game seven?

BTW, as poorly as Wilt's teammates played, almost to a man, they were better WITH Wilt, than withOUT him in the rest of their careers. Gola, Greer, Meschery, Jackson, Goodrich, and other's. And West arguably had the two greatest post-season's of his career, WITH, Wilt. And Arizin's production hardly missed a beat when rookie Wilt arrived. Oh, and how about Baylor? In his 67-68 season, he averaged 26 ppg. In his 68-69 season, and with Wilt, he "slipped" to 24.8 ppg. Of course, who knew that Baylor would then fall completely apart in that post-season?

The reality was, Russell simply had much better teammates nearly his entire career, and those teammates just crushed Wilt's.

As John Wooden said...swap rosters, and it would have been Wilt holding all those rings.

Cute stats..

It's obvious Russell does something beyond the boxscore.. He's the greatest intangible player ever, one of the greatest minds and mental players, and one of the best leaders..

Where are all the Newspaper clippings dug up by Fatal and co, Wilt outplayed by Russell and the game over at halftime, Wilt with like 10 points, and ends with 35 in a blowout loss.. :facepalm

[LAZERUSS]

furthermore, it stings most when a young blood straight outta school comes in and does you dirty when you think you are the man. 7 losses in the first 10 games, while having a better team ?!?!? . ouch bruh, it gotta hurt wilt till now.

KAJ opinion on wilt: "Wilt Chumperlane":lol

Kareem's 69-70 Bucks went 56-26, while Wilt's Lakers went 46-36. BTW, a one-legged Chamberlain took his 46-36 Lakers to a game seven loss against the 60-22 Knicks in the Finals. The same Knicks team that wiped out KAJ's 56-26 Bucks in the ECF's, 4-1, including a clinching game win by a 132-96 margin.

Kareem's 70-71 Bucks went 66-16...Wilt's injury-riddled Lakers went 48-34. BTW, in their post-season H2H, Chamberlain battled Kareem's Bucks withOUT BOTH West and Baylor the entire playoffs. Oh, and the consensus was, a 34 year old Wilt, only a year removed from major knee surgery, outplayed Kareem in that series.

Oh, and as another side-note. Kareem and Wilt played H2H in back-to-back post-seasons in '71 and '72. In the clinching games of two series, Chamberlain collectively shot 18-33 from the field (.545), while Kareem collectively shot 23-60 (.383.)

Oh, and one more side-note...Elgin Baylor played exactly ONE GAME out of the 28 career H2H games between Kareem and Wilt.

[LAZERUSS]

Cute stats..

It's obvious Russell does something beyond the boxscore.. He's the greatest intangible player ever, one of the greatest minds and mental players, and one of the best leaders..

Where are all the Newspaper clippings dug up by Fatal and co, Wilt outplayed by Russell and the game over at halftime, Wilt with like 10 points, and ends with 35 in a blowout loss.. :facepalm

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Myself, and other's here, BLEW those theories AWAY a long time ago.

But, instead of me making a long post to shred that logic...how about ONE game...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/196202090BOS.html

Take a close look at that boxscore. Wilt's Warriors were down by 21 points in the 4th quarter. Guess what...they came back to win that game. Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain hung 48 points on Russell in that same game.

[ralph_i_el]

I like how wilt Stans can be counted on to melt down on command. And none of these dudes ever watched him play live:roll:

100 points was a myth

[LAZERUSS]

Cute stats..

It's obvious Russell does something beyond the boxscore.. He's the greatest intangible player ever, one of the greatest minds and mental players, and one of the best leaders..

Where are all the Newspaper clippings dug up by Fatal and co, Wilt outplayed by Russell and the game over at halftime, Wilt with like 10 points, and ends with 35 in a blowout loss.. :facepalm

How about this...

Just maybe his TEAMMATES had something to do with that success, don't you think?

Let's start with Russell's ROOKIE season. Keep in mind that he joined a Celtic team that had gone 39-33 the previous year. Oh, and Russell wasn't even Boston's first draft pick that year, either. They drafted future HOFer, Tommy Heinsohn before they picked Russell. So, they added two great players to an already star-studded team.

Not only that, but Russell missed 24 games that year. In the games he played, Boston went 28-20 (.583.) In the games he missed, they went 16-8 (.667.)

Then, the next year they added Sam Jones to that roster. How good were the '58 Celtics? They lost in six games to the Hawks in the Finals, but this is where it gets interesting. The series was tied 1-1, when Russell injured his ankle in the first half of game three. The Hawks would go on to barely win that game, 111-108, BUT, Boston outscored them in the second half...and sans Russell. Th Celtics, withOUT Russell, easily won game four to tie the series. In the fifth game, and withOUT Russell, they lost by a 102-100 margin. Russell finally gave it a go in the sixth game, but had to come out in the first half, and did not return. The Hawks eked out a 110-109 win, BUT again, the Celtics outscored them in the second half, and withOUT Russell.

BTW, Boston routinely won games in which Russell missed throughout his career. And how about one game he missed in his 58-59 season? They won the game, 173-139! In fact, in the research that I have compiled, Boston tended to do better offensively, withOUT Russell.

And don't forget, even Bill Russell himself, made this comment:

http://www.celtic-nation.com/interviews/sam_jones/sam_jones_page1.htm


“In the years that I played with the Celtics,” says Russell, “in terms of total basketball skills, Sam Jones was the most skillful player that I ever played with. At one point, we won a total of eight consecutive NBA championships, and six times during that run we asked Sam to take the shot that meant the season. If he didn’t hit the shot we were finished – we were going home empty-handed. He never missed.”

And we know that Havlicek was Boston's best player on the Celtics in Russell's last two seasons, particularly the playoffs. And we also know that Hondo went on two win two MORE rings after Russell retired.

The reality was, Russell not only played on a STACKED rosters his entire career, he did so with many of the SAME teammates for much of them.

[DatAsh]

I like how wilt Stans can be counted on to melt down on command. And none of these dudes ever watched him play live:roll:

100 points was a myth

I believe La Frescobaldi when he says he watched Wilt live. You can tell he knows a lot of the era and of Wilt, as he doesn't just talk stats.

[B-hoop]

Laz taking losses left and right.

Dude is just a biased stan and will change the context around everything to make Wilt better than he was.

Just accept it, Wilt was a choker, he was a great player, but he was a choker.

[swagga]

Laz taking losses left and right.

Dude is just a biased stan and will change the context around everything to make Wilt better than he was.

Just accept it, Wilt was a choker, he was a great player, but he was a choker.

what differentiates wilt from the truly great centers is leadership. Dude always went against the good of the team:
- he didn't come to practice so can he party with hoes, of course the team doesn't gel properly as he is the center piece.
- he went against a lot of coaches
- he was obssessed with winning the APG title so he passed even when it wasn't necessary at all, just to prove a point
- for a season he had much fewer FGA per game just to prove a point

While the other greats were busy with leading their teams, this chump was busy thinking the world revolves around him.

[LAZERUSS]

what differentiates wilt from the truly great centers is leadership. Dude always went against the good of the team:
- he didn't come to practice so can he party with hoes, of course the team doesn't gel properly as he is the center piece.
- he went against a lot of coaches
- he was obssessed with winning the APG title so he passed even when it wasn't necessary at all, just to prove a point
- for a season he had much fewer FGA per game just to prove a point

While the other greats were busy with leading their teams, this chump was busy thinking the world revolves around him.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Gotta love the Bill Simmons logic. In the year that Wilt led the league in assists, his team RAN AWAY with the best record in the league. Now, Simmons would argue that because of that, they lost in the EDF's, but here was the REALITY of that post-season...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9328011&postcount=14

and

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9328006&postcount=13

BTW, this "Wilt who was busy thinking the world revolved him" played EVERY MINUTE of that series...all while NOTICEABLY LIMPING.

BTW, Chamberlain also shattered his wrist in an OT game of the '72 Finals, but played 47 minutes in the clinching game five win the next game. Not only that, but he dominated in that game, scoring 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and 8 blocked shots.

How about Kareem under the same circumstances? He broke his hand TWICE in his career, and missed 16 and 21 games each time. And how about KAJ missing the clinching game six in the '80 Finals, with a sprained ankle? And yet, Chamberlain was playing every minute of a playoff series with considerably worse injuries.

And how about Wilt in his 69-70 season, when he shredded his knee, and had major knee sugery. A surgery at the time that required a minimum of a year to recover from, and in fact, for a 34 year old, seven-footer, who weighed 300 lbs, it was usually a career-ender.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8824807&postcount=25

and

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8825003&postcount=26

Why did Wilt come back so early, even though he knew he was nowhere near 100%? For his TEAMMATES. Oh, and then Wilt played nearly minute of the seven games in the Finals, and averaged 23 ppg, 24 rpg, and shot .625 from the field, including a 45 -27 "must-win" game six.

Yep...Wilt was no leader...

[swagga]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Gotta love the Bill Simmons logic. In the year that Wilt led the league in assists, his team RAN AWAY with the best record in the league. Now, Simmons would argue that because of that, they lost in the EDF's, but here was the REALITY of that post-season...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9328011&postcount=14

and

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9328006&postcount=13

BTW, this "Wilt who was busy thinking the world revolved him" played EVERY MINUTE of that series...all while NOTICEABLY LIMPING.

BTW, Chamberlain also shattered his wrist in an OT game of the '72 Finals, but played 47 minutes in the clinching game five win the next game. Not only that, but he dominated in that game, scoring 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and 8 blocked shots.

How about Kareem under the same circumstances? He broke his hand TWICE in his career, and missed 16 and 21 games each time. And how about KAJ missing the clinching game six in the '80 Finals, with a sprained ankle? And yet, Chamberlain was playing every minute of a playoff series with considerably worse injuries.

And how about Wilt in his 69-70 season, when he shredded his knee, and had major knee sugery. A surgery at the time that required a minimum of a year to recover from, and in fact, for a 34 year old, seven-footer, who weighed 300 lbs, it was usually a career-ender.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8824807&postcount=25

and

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8825003&postcount=26

Why did Wilt come back so early, even though he knew he was nowhere near 100%? For his TEAMMATES. Oh, and then Wilt played nearly minute of the seven games in the Finals, and averaged 23 ppg, 24 rpg, and shot .625 from the field, including a 45 -27 "must-win" game six.

Yep...Wilt was no leader...

we all know wilt statpadded.
we also know that wilt had a fair share of HOF teammates and he only rang twice. Only once fmvp. He got destroyed H2H by kareem. Dude was a stat padder that ring chased, he wasn't even the alpha on his own team.

[LAZERUSS]

Laz taking losses left and right.

Dude is just a biased stan and will change the context around everything to make Wilt better than he was.

Just accept it, Wilt was a choker, he was a great player, but he was a choker.

Yep...Chamberlain "the choker."

In his 23 "must-win" playoff games, all he did was average 31.1 ppg, 26.4 rpg, and shoot .540 from the field (and about 10% above the league average BTW.)

Oh, and in THREE of them he scored 50+ point games...which are the ONLY THREE 50+ point playoff games that came in "must-win" situations.

That 31.1 ppg ranks just behind Lebrons' 31.8 ppg, and MJ's 31.3 ppg in all-time "must-win" rankings.

[LAZERUSS]

we all know wilt statpadded.
we also know that wilt had a fair share of HOF teammates and he only rang twice. Only once fmvp. He got destroyed H2H by kareem. Dude was a stat padder that ring chased, he wasn't even the alpha on his own team.

He most certainly was the "alpha" on all but ONE playoff team (possibly two, but in '70 he was clearly the Lakers best player in the last three games of the Finals.)

BTW, he most certainly would have won a FMVP in '67, had the award existed.

"Destroyed" by Kareem?

In their '71 H2H's, Wilt statistically outplayed Kareem in the majority of their ten H2H games. In the '71 WCF's, he outplayed KAJ 3-1-1 in their five games.

In the '72 WCF's, despite being heavily outscored, a 35 year old Wilt was almost UNIVERSALLY acclaimed as having outplayed the 25 year old Kareem.

And, in their ONE H2H game before Wilt's injury, Wilt easily outplayed Kareem (Alcindor.) He outscored him, 25-23; outrebounded him, 25-20; outassisted him, 5-2; outblocked him, 3-2; and outshot him from the field, 9-14 to 9-21.


And one more time, a Chamberlain who was essentially 36 years old, held a PEAK Kareem to a .434 FG% over the course of their LAST TEN STRAIGHT H2H games.


Luckily for Kareem, he never faced a PRIME Chamberlain.

[LAZERUSS]

Certainly one of the greatest "choke jobs" of all-time...

Bill Russell in the '67 EDF's.

He was carpet-bombed by Chamberlain in the entire series, and his eight-time defending champion (and 60-21) Celtics were nearly SWEPT, just barely avoiding a sweep in game four.

In the clinching game five, Russell quietly led his team like a lamb being led to slaughter, when he put up a FOUR point game, on 2-5 shooting. Where was the legendary "clutch" Russell who "owned" Wilt, in that game?

Meanwhile, Chamberlain outscored Russell in that game, 29-4, 22 of which came in the first half and when the game was still close. He outshot Russell from the field, 10-16 to 2-5; outassisted Russell, 13-7; and outrebounded Russell, 36-21. He also added seven blocked shots. All in a 140-116 win. As a sidenote, Boston led by 17 points late in the first quarter, but by the mid-way point of the 4th period, they were down by 27 points.

Talk about a "choke job."

[1987_Lakers]

Wilt crumbled under pressure situations. What else is new?

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt crumbled under pressure situations. What else is new?


Yep, you're right...

Wilt's numbers in those 23 "must-win" games...13 of which came against HOF starting centers.

12-11 W-L record

31.1 ppg (Regular season career average was 30.1 ppg)
26.1 rpg (Regular season career average was 22.9 rpg)
3.4 apg (Regular season career average was 4.4 apg)
.540 FG% (Regular season career average was .540 FG%)


3 games of 50+ points (the ONLY 50 point games in playoff "must-win games BTW)

5 games of 40+ points (including a Finals 40+ elimination game)

13 games of 30+ points

6 games of 30+ rebounds

20 games of 20+ rebounds


Or how about Chamberlain in his "must-win" and "series clinching" games...


Wilt actually played in 37 "elimination games",...games where either his team faced elimination, or could have clinched the series:

1. W: 53-22-2, 24-42 FG/FGA

2. W: 50-35-2, 22-42

3. L: 26-24-0, 8-18

4. L: 33-23-1, 13-29

5. W: 56-35-1, 22-48

6. W: 32-21-1, 12-29

7. L: 22-22-3, 7-15

8. W: 39-30-?, 19-29

9. L: 30-27-2, 12-28

10. W: 38-26-5, 14-22, 10 blks (Triple-Double)

11. W: 30-26-4, 13-22, 13 blks (Triple-Double)

12. L: 30-32-2, 12-15

13. L: 46-34-?, 19-34

14. W: 18-27-9, 7-14

15. W: 29-36-13, 10-16, 7 blks (Triple-Double)

16. W: 24-23-4, 8-13

17. W: 25-27-3, 10-19

18. L: 28-30-7, 11-21

19. L: 20-27-8, 6-21

20. L: 14-34-5, 4-9

21. W: 11-25-1, 5-9

22. W: 16-29-3, 5-11, 16 blks (Triple-Double)

23. L: 8-18-4, 1-5

24. L: 18-27-3, 7-8

25. W: 36-14-3, 12-20

26. W: 12-26-11, 4-11, 11 blks (Quad-Double)

27. W: 30-27-6, 11-18, 11 blks (Triple-Double)

28. W: 45-27-3, 20-27

29. L: 21-24-4, 10-16

30. W: 25-19-9, 7-12

31. L: 23-12-4, 10-21

32. W: 8-31-8, 4-6

33. W: 20-24-2, 8-12, 10 blks (Triple-Double)

34. W: 24-29-4, 10-14, 8 blks

35. W: 21-28-4, 10-17, 8 blks

36. W: 5-22-7, 2-2

37. L: 23-21-3, 9-16


W-L : 24-13

Here were Wilt's averages in those 37 games:

29.5 ppg

26.1 rpg

4.2 apg (missing one game)

.546 FG% (in post-seasons that shot about .440 on average in that span.)

Keep in mind that 24 of those 37 games came after his "scoring seasons" (59-60 thru 65-66)

And, I won't take the time now, but he was CRUSHING his OPPOSING centers in the majority of those, as well.

[-23-]

Laz, how do you explain Wilt losing with HCA? Losing when he's SUPPOSED to win? Is this considered choking for you? For reference,

Jordan (consensus GOAT) is 24-0 with HCA (100%)
Kareem 35-5 85%
Russell 22-1 95.5%
Magic 29-3 89.7%
Bird 24-7 70.9%
Wilt 13-5 61.54%
Hakeem 9-2 77.8%
Shaq 23-4 82.61

According to this (which is pretty accurate) the GOAT top 5 list would be:

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Magic
4. Kareem
5. Shaq

[K Xerxes]

Certainly one of the greatest "choke jobs" of all-time...

Bill Russell in the '67 EDF's.

He was carpet-bombed by Chamberlain in the entire series, and his eight-time defending champion (and 60-21) Celtics were nearly SWEPT, just barely avoiding a sweep in game four.

In the clinching game five, Russell quietly led his team like a lamb being led to slaughter, when he put up a FOUR point game, on 2-5 shooting. Where was the legendary "clutch" Russell who "owned" Wilt, in that game?

Meanwhile, Chamberlain outscored Russell in that game, 29-4, 22 of which came in the first half and when the game was still close. He outshot Russell from the field, 10-16 to 2-5; outassisted Russell, 13-7; and outrebounded Russell, 36-21. He also added seven blocked shots. All in a 140-116 win. As a sidenote, Boston led by 17 points late in the first quarter, but by the mid-way point of the 4th period, they were down by 27 points.

Talk about a "choke job."

Didn't watch the series so don't know if this is truly a chokejob as the stats suggest, but Russell won 9 straight times before that when he was fully healthy and came back to win back to back titles straight after this 'chokejob'. That's a champion.

[LAZERUSS]

Laz, how do you explain Wilt losing with HCA? Losing when he's SUPPOSED to win? Is this considered choking for you? For reference,

Jordan (consensus GOAT) is 24-0 with HCA (100%)
Kareem 35-5 85%
Russell 22-1 95.5%
Magic 29-3 89.7%
Bird 24-7 70.9%
Wilt 13-5 61.54%
Hakeem 9-2 77.8%
Shaq 23-4 82.61

According to this (which is pretty accurate) the GOAT top 5 list would be:

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Magic
4. Kareem
5. Shaq

TEAM game.

BTW, so if Hakeem wasn't good enough to get his team HCA in most series, and is wiped out EIGHT times in the FIRST ROUND, wouldn't you consider THAT "choke jobs?"

And yes, Bird was the biggest "loser" in playoff history...losing SEVEN times with HCA.

Furthermore, using other "arguments" which are just as ridiculous as your's...

Greg Ostertag SLAUGHTERED Shaq in their post-season H2H's. Crushed a helpless Shaq by an 8-1 margin in their post-season H2H's.

Shaq...the biggest "choker" of all-time...

[LAZERUSS]

Didn't watch the series so don't know if this is truly a chokejob as the stats suggest, but Russell won 9 straight times before that when he was fully healthy and came back to win back to back titles straight after this 'chokejob'. That's playing with championship ROSTERS.

Fixed...

[-23-]

TEAM game.

BTW, so if Hakeem wasn't good enough to get his team HCA in most series, and is wiped out EIGHT times in the FIRST ROUND, wouldn't you consider THAT "choke jobs?"

And yes, Bird was the biggest "loser" in playoff history...losing SEVEN times with HCA.

Furthermore, using other "arguments" which are just as ridiculous as your's...

Greg Ostertag SLAUGHTERED Shaq in their post-season H2H's. Crushed a helpless Shaq by an 8-1 margin in their post-season H2H's.

Shaq...the biggest "choker" of all-time...
Surely you can't be this stupid? If you LOSE when you're supposed to, you didn't choke. If you LOSE when you're supposed to win, that's a choke. How is Bird the biggest choker (I too consider him a choker) when statistically, WILT is the worse choker by %.

[LAZERUSS]

Surely you can't be this stupid? If you LOSE when you're supposed to, you didn't choke. If you LOSE when you're supposed to win, that's a choke. How is Bird the biggest choker (I too consider him a choker) when statistically, WILT is the worse choker by %.

Again, it's a TEAM game. When Wilt's '61 Warriors lost to Syracuse (and BTW, the Nats were better player-for-player after Wilt), Chamberlain averaged 37 ppg and 23 rpg. Meanwhile, his TEAMMATES collectively shot .332 from the field. Am I supposed to blame WILT for that loss.

His '66 Sixers, which were actually nowhere near as talented as the Boston team that they edged out in the regular season...lost to Boston in the EDF's, in a series in which, as always, Chamberlain just crushed RUSSELL. Wilt averaged 28 ppg, 30 rpg, and shot .509 from the field (including a 46-34 series clinching loss performance.) Meanwhile, how about his TEAMMATES? They collectively shot .352 from the field. Yep...WILT's fault, right?

Compare that with Bird's '88 "choke job", when he took his 57-25 Celtic's down in flames against the Pistons, and in a series in which he shot .351 (and McHale averaged 27 ppg on a .563 FG% BTW.)

Now, who "choked" more.


And again, and speaking of "stupidity", Hakeem evidently wasn't even good enough to get his team's HCA, was he? Why should he be rewarded for seldom even finishing in the Top-4 in the MVP voting (only FOUR times, and only ONE MVP and ONE second place finish)...and then not being good enough to get his team's past the FIRST ROUND in OVER HALF of his post-seasons?

I'm sorry, but this is a TEAM game. Chamberlain's TEAMs losing with HCA, and in series in which he was generally the best player on the floor, is just plain ridiculous to hold him singularly accountable.

Please try again...

[SHAQisGOAT]

Compare that with Bird's '88 "choke job", when he took his 57-25 Celtic's down in flames against the Pistons, and in a series in which he shot .351 (and McHale averaged 27 ppg on a .563 FG% BTW.)

Now, who "choked" more.



Funny that you mention that...

Before facing the Pistons in 1988, Bird got the Celtics past the Hawks, series went to 7 and Larry was great and clutch as hell (historic duel vs Wilkins), he gave everything he got and essentially was done there, afterwards having ankles (then back) surgeries.
Just the year before (1987) he was the main reason the Celtics even got past the Bad Boys with the series going to 7, he averaged 27/10/8 on .572 TS%, while being extremely clutch... I guess that it's just a mere "coincidence" that he wasn't even remotely close to those numbers and that level of play just a year afterwards, huh? :confusedshrug:

McHale was scoring very well but even he was not the same as before (after playing on a broken foot), was not a big factor on the boards, didn't play defense to his full capabilities and couldn't give full effort. Plus Ainge, Parish and DJ played pretty sub-par, and the bench was basically non-existent since 1987 (reason why the starters had to log more minutes than ever before, being ran down to the ground).

With that said, now here's where the REALLY funny part comes in...
In 1969 Lakers were 55-27, losing to the 48-34 Celtics led by an old Bill Russell (with an old Sam Jones). Wilt couldn't "get the job done" and he had two teammates who are top20 all-time players; with Jerry West playing like a complete beast, averaging 38 PPG on 49% FG, 26 more PPG than Wilt (lmfao) and putting up 42 points in game7, even winning FMVP in an amazing 'losing effort'. Chamberlain couldn't win with that, yet you talk shit about his teammates?! :wtf:
.......................
Yet you're always talking shit about Larry Bird's performance in the 1988 ECF (and such), and never say anything about Wilt Chamberlain (1969 in this case) while:
-West played better than McHale, and Baylor played better than either DJ or Parish, shit John Egan was playing better than Ainge (even Mel Counts), while scoring/playing better then the Chief too... Shit, Kevin didn't score 26 more PPG than Larry, not even close :lol West did though (more than Wilt), on better overall efficiency too :facepalm ridiculous;
-Bird was basically done, severely injured, in need of surgeries, gave it his all in the ECSF, getting them there (amongst other "things" before)... he wasn't publicizing shit or making excuses though;
-Larry scored 8 more PPG than Wilt, yea on 15%FG less but also on 48%FT more and in a considerably slower paced era... Plus Bird also grabbed 12.2 RPG, dished out 6.2 APG with only 1.8 TO, also averaged 2.7 SPG and 1.8 BPG, all of that as a forward, fail to mention that though;
-he was playing against a great up-and-coming team, who posted a better record than the 1969 Celtics (in an extremely tough conference), almost as good as the 1988 Celtics... and he had murked them the year before, when he was (relatively) healthy;

Who choked more in those cases, and even overall for their careers? Wilt did, by far, not even a question about it...
1969 Wilt? Now that's a choke-job :oldlol:

:rolleyes:

Oh, and you keep mentioning that Bird lost 7 times with HCA, but he also won 24 which is more than Russell, Shaq or Hakeem and 11 more than Wilt, who on the other hand only lost 2 less than Larry :oldlol:
And the C's only got that HCA due to Bird, before he got there they sucked, when he was out/playing-injured they were considerably worse, and when he left they sucked again.

:facepalm


You're getting destroyed left and right in this thread (as usual), while posting bullshit essays filled with fallacies and clear agendas, plus selected out of context stuff, getting all mad as hell...
:roll:

[Psileas]

-23-, cherry picking at its best. First of all, you have no idea when a team is "supposed" to win, as long as you have no knowledge about specific cases, like the one of the '68 Sixers, who posted a 62-20 record, but they sure as hell weren't "supposed" to win (or take a 3-1 lead) considering what injury crap they went through during the playoffs.
Second, a team record doesn't even always reveal what the better team was, especially if you remove the often compared star players from each team, and even more so if the records are too close. Do you really think that the 1966 Sixers were supposed to beat the 7-peat Celtics that season because they had posted 1 more win and had HCA, even though, you know, the Celtics were a 7-peat champion, they had a higher SRS, they had more injuries during the regular season, which deflated their record and the Sixers' important rookie Billy Cunningham only seldom played in those playoffs?
Third, playing in a 4 round league compared to 2 or 3, definitely pads this type of record, so comparing these stats all-time is inaccurate by nature.
Fourth, I love how you leave out of your list other significant star players that screw up this "all-time" list. What is Kobe's record with HCA? What is Havlicek's? Where should they rank?
Fifth, why is this "all-time" list more important and telling than other lists based on, say, record without HCA or on record in "do or die" games or record in "do or die for both teams" games? Or a list with an overall series record?
Sixth, thank God some players miss the playoffs or rarely make them with HCA, so their overall record can't ever dream of being that low, thus stripping them from the "choker" possibility. :rolleyes:

[swagga]

-23-, cherry picking at its best. First of all, you have no idea when a team is "supposed" to win, as long as you have no knowledge about specific cases, like the one of the '68 Sixers, who posted a 62-20 record, but they sure as hell weren't "supposed" to win (or take a 3-1 lead) considering what injury crap they went through during the playoffs.
Second, a team record doesn't even always reveal what the better team was, especially if you remove the often compared star players from each team, and even more so if the records are too close. Do you really think that the 1966 Sixers were supposed to beat the 7-peat Celtics that season because they had posted 1 more win and had HCA, even though, you know, the Celtics were a 7-peat champion, they had a higher SRS, they had more injuries during the regular season, which deflated their record and the Sixers' important rookie Billy Cunningham only seldom played in those playoffs?
Third, playing in a 4 round league compared to 2 or 3, definitely pads this type of record, so comparing these stats all-time is inaccurate by nature.
Fourth, I love how you leave out of your list other significant star players that screw up this "all-time" list. What is Kobe's record with HCA? What is Havlicek's? Where should they rank?
Fifth, why is this "all-time" list more important and telling than other lists based on, say, record without HCA or on record in "do or die" games or record in "do or die for both teams" games? Or a list with an overall series record?
Sixth, thank God some players miss the playoffs or rarely make them with HCA, so their overall record can't ever dream of being that low, thus stripping them from the "choker" possibility. :rolleyes:

what's your opinion on kareem dominating wilt?
31.2 ppg vs 16ppg is like prime jordan vs starks.

[AceManIII]

Why did Wilt say in his autobiography that Bill Russell had more drive to win?

[ArbitraryWater]

Certainly one of the greatest "choke jobs" of all-time...

Bill Russell in the '67 EDF's.

He was carpet-bombed by Chamberlain in the entire series, and his eight-time defending champion (and 60-21) Celtics were nearly SWEPT, just barely avoiding a sweep in game four.

In the clinching game five, Russell quietly led his team like a lamb being led to slaughter, when he put up a FOUR point game, on 2-5 shooting. Where was the legendary "clutch" Russell who "owned" Wilt, in that game?

Meanwhile, Chamberlain outscored Russell in that game, 29-4, 22 of which came in the first half and when the game was still close. He outshot Russell from the field, 10-16 to 2-5; outassisted Russell, 13-7; and outrebounded Russell, 36-21. He also added seven blocked shots. All in a 140-116 win. As a sidenote, Boston led by 17 points late in the first quarter, but by the mid-way point of the 4th period, they were down by 27 points.

Talk about a "choke job."

Not a choke to me, too much of a blowout of a series... Russell against Wilt doing everything the right way, peak Wilt, had no chance...

Also Russell had his first year as player-coach, which supposedly caused him some trouble... AND he won 9 titles in 10 years BEFORE and the next 2 titles AFTER...

Still, I love how this shuts the "When the Celtics needed it from Russell, he could deliver (scoring)" down.. Elimination game, 4 points..

[-23-]

-23-, cherry picking at its best. First of all, you have no idea when a team is "supposed" to win, as long as you have no knowledge about specific cases, like the one of the '68 Sixers, who posted a 62-20 record, but they sure as hell weren't "supposed" to win (or take a 3-1 lead) considering what injury crap they went through during the playoffs.
Second, a team record doesn't even always reveal what the better team was, especially if you remove the often compared star players from each team, and even more so if the records are too close. Do you really think that the 1966 Sixers were supposed to beat the 7-peat Celtics that season because they had posted 1 more win and had HCA, even though, you know, the Celtics were a 7-peat champion, they had a higher SRS, they had more injuries during the regular season, which deflated their record and the Sixers' important rookie Billy Cunningham only seldom played in those playoffs?
Third, playing in a 4 round league compared to 2 or 3, definitely pads this type of record, so comparing these stats all-time is inaccurate by nature.
Fourth, I love how you leave out of your list other significant star players that screw up this "all-time" list. What is Kobe's record with HCA? What is Havlicek's? Where should they rank?
Fifth, why is this "all-time" list more important and telling than other lists based on, say, record without HCA or on record in "do or die" games or record in "do or die for both teams" games? Or a list with an overall series record?
Sixth, thank God some players miss the playoffs or rarely make them with HCA, so their overall record can't ever dream of being that low, thus stripping them from the "choker" possibility. :rolleyes:


So 2 series losses. Basically he's still ~%68 with with HCA? Still pathetic. There's nothing cherry picking here. This looks at statistical long run, vs. anecdotal series with injuries.

Kobe's HCA 27-2. If players miss playoffs, it's because their team SUCKED. But if you steamrolled the regular season, and lose to a lower seeded team, YOU CHOKED.

[millwad]

TEAM game.

BTW, so if Hakeem wasn't good enough to get his team HCA in most series, and is wiped out EIGHT times in the FIRST ROUND, wouldn't you consider THAT "choke jobs?"
.

Greg Ostertag SLAUGHTERED Shaq in their post-season H2H's. Crushed a helpless Shaq by an 8-1 margin in their post-season H2H's.

Shaq...the biggest "choker" of all-time...

These rants of yours only make you look more and more stupid, it's almost getting as bad as it did with your "Jlauber"-account before you left and had to create new accounts so it wouldn't get out of hand again.

First of all, whenever Wilt lost a series or a game you blame his teammates, the coaches and that he was injured. You blame his HOF-teammates and all-star teammates, then you go on a rant about how Hakeem lost 8 times in the first round. I asked you specifically which years he should have made it further while considering that he had weak players next to him, you replied "all of them". That is how stupid and ignorant you are when it comes to other players.

And yeah, Ostertag "crushed a helpless" Shaq. Do you know the only thing Wilt, Shaq, Ostertag and Kareem had in common?

Kareem outscored Wilt with the same amount of points per game in the '72 playoffs as Shaq did with Ostertag. Both players outscored their opponent (Wilt and Ostertag) with 23 points per game while shooting a better FG%.

[ArbitraryWater]

[B]
Funny that you mention that...

Before facing the Pistons in 1988, Bird got the Celtics past the Hawks, series went to 7 and Larry was great and clutch as hell (historic duel vs Wilkins), he gave everything he got and essentially was done there, afterwards having ankles (then back) surgeries.
Just the year before (1987) he was the main reason the Celtics even got past the Bad Boys with the series going to 7, he averaged 27/10/8 on .572 TS%, while being extremely clutch... I guess that it's just a mere "coincidence" that he wasn't even remotely close to those numbers and that level of play just a year afterwards, huh? :confusedshrug:

Making excuses like jlauber :biggums:

[SHAQisGOAT]

Making excuses like jlauber :biggums:

Making the bitch-ass-move of only quoting 1/4 of my post, and replying with a short ignorant answer? :biggums:

[ArbitraryWater]

Making the bitch-ass-move of only quoting 1/4 of my post, and replying with a short ignorant answer? :biggums:

I quoted the 1988 part? That's all that needed to be said :confusedshrug:

You didn't go on to say "Wait, I take that back", did ya?

[Psileas]

So 2 series losses. Basically he's still ~%68 with with HCA? Still pathetic. There's nothing cherry picking here. This looks at statistical long run, vs. anecdotal series with injuries.

Kobe's HCA 27-2. If players miss playoffs, it's because their team SUCKED. But if you steamrolled the regular season, and lose to a lower seeded team, YOU CHOKED.

1) I just gave 2 examples, not necessarily the only 2 existing. And you need to take all factors into account. For example, Wilt didn't have these so called "first rounds". What's the record of everyone if you remove first rounds?

2) That would bring Kobe to #3, above Wilt, Kareem, Magic, etc. List starts looking awkward, doesn't it...

3) So, it's just not possible that the team sucks during the playoffs and one specific player doesn't choke...Or that a team chokes during the regular season (e.g, if they need 2 wins in the last 10 games to make the playoffs, but they only get 1)... You need to broaden your horizons a bit.

[LAZERUSS]

Chamberlain "the choker" in game seven of the '69 Finals:

Russell: 6 points, 2-7 FG/FGA, 2-4 FT/FTA, 21 rebounds, 6 assists, and 2 known blocks.
Wilt: 18 points, 7-8 FG/FGA, 4-13 FT/FTA, 27 rebounds, 3 assists, and 10 known blocks.

Oh, and Russell played 48 minutes, Chamberlain 43.

Other than West, who made 14, no one else made more FTs than Wilt's 4.

BTW, Russell had a TS% of .333. Chamberlain had a TS% of .621 (oh, and West was at .553, while Baylor was at .408 .)

[Asukal]

Chamberlain "the choker" in game seven of the '69 Finals:

Russell: 6 points, 2-7 FG/FGA, 2-4 FT/FTA, 21 rebounds, 6 assists, and 2 known blocks.
Wilt: 18 points, 7-8 FG/FGA, 4-13 FT/FTA, 27 rebounds, 3 assists, and 10 known blocks.

Oh, and Russell played 48 minutes, Chamberlain 43.

Other than West, who made 14, no one else made more FTs than Wilt's 4.

BTW, Russell had a TS% of .333. Chamberlain had a TS% of .621 (oh, and West was at .553, while Baylor was at .408 .)

Again, stats without context. :facepalm

That 4thQ video alone showed just what kind of player Russell was, and he did things that wouldn't show up on the stat sheets. Of course to you anything less than a block or a steal is failed defense. :rolleyes:

Oh btw, Wilt lost yet again. Choke! :oldlol:

[Poochymama]

Wilt was the goat rs player, no doubt. Once you're good enough to get to the post season though, regular season stats don't mean s***. That's where he falls behind.

[AnaheimLakers24]

bran ames is the biggest choker. 2011 is as bad as it gets

[millwad]

Chamberlain "the choker" in game seven of the '69 Finals:

Russell: 6 points, 2-7 FG/FGA, 2-4 FT/FTA, 21 rebounds, 6 assists, and 2 known blocks.
Wilt: 18 points, 7-8 FG/FGA, 4-13 FT/FTA, 27 rebounds, 3 assists, and 10 known blocks.

Oh, and Russell played 48 minutes, Chamberlain 43.

Other than West, who made 14, no one else made more FTs than Wilt's 4.

BTW, Russell had a TS% of .333. Chamberlain had a TS% of .621 (oh, and West was at .553, while Baylor was at .408 .)

While giving it away from the FT-line and being "injured" when it was going to be decided.

If he would have just over 50% of his FT-attempts they'd win the game.

[millwad]

Again, stats without context. :facepalm

That 4thQ video alone showed just what kind of player Russell was, and he did things that wouldn't show up on the stat sheets. Of course to you anything less than a block or a steal is failed defense. :rolleyes:

Oh btw, Wilt lost yet again. Choke! :oldlol:

What surprises me is that I have never seen a dominant performance in one and the same footage from a game, everything is always chopped in pieces and then added afterwards.

Seeing Wilt in an actual game without highlights is not really that impressive.

[LAZERUSS]

While giving it away from the FT-line and being "injured" when it was going to be decided.

If he would have just over 50% of his FT-attempts they'd win the game.

Or if even one of his teammates, who collectively shot .360 from the field in that game seven, would have hit ONE shot, they likely would have won the game.

[LAZERUSS]

What surprises me is that I have never seen a dominant performance in one and the same footage from a game, everything is always chopped in pieces and then added afterwards.

Seeing Wilt in an actual game without highlights is not really that impressive.

You obviously didn't watch game five of the '72 Finals, or game four of the '64 Finals. Or the '62 ASG, in which he poured in 42 points on 17-23 from the field, while everyone else was shooting like Ray Charles.

Of course, we know that Chamberlain played in 271 NBA games in which he scored 40+ points...and yet, not ONE with video footage.

[LAZERUSS]

Again, stats without context. :facepalm

That 4thQ video alone showed just what kind of player Russell was, and he did things that wouldn't show up on the stat sheets. Of course to you anything less than a block or a steal is failed defense. :rolleyes:

Oh btw, Wilt lost yet again. Choke! :oldlol:

That 4th quarter video had Russell hiding for much of the period, letting Wilt score on Chamberlain's one pass into the post, grabbing two rebounds, brutalized by Wilt on the glass in Chamberlain's six minutes of play, outplayed by stumblebum Counts in the last four minutes, and overall watched helplessly as the Lakers cut a 17 point down to one in the last nine minutes of the game (and 10 of it in the three minutes before Wilt went down with his injury).

THAT was the kind of player Russell was in the last quarter.

BTW, we now KNOW that Wilt had 10 blocked shots in that game, which probably accounted for the fact that the Boston players did not challenge the offensive lane the entire 4th period, even with Chamberlain playing with five fouls.

[Psileas]

That 4th quarter video had Russell hiding for much of the period, letting Wilt score on Chamberlain's one pass into the post, grabbing two rebounds, brutalized by Wilt on the glass in Chamberlain's six minutes of play, outplayed by stumblebum Counts in the last four minutes, and overall watched helplessly as the Lakers cut a 17 point down to one in the last nine minutes of the game (and 10 of it in the three minutes before Wilt went down with his injury).

THAT was the kind of player Russell was in the last quarter.

BTW, we now KNOW that Wilt had 10 blocked shots in that game, which probably accounted for the fact that the Boston players did not challenge the offensive lane the entire 4th period, even with Chamberlain playing with five fouls.

For real, thank God there's more footage and a lot more knowledge on Russell, because this is embarrassing. Who would believe Russell is a GOAT candidate by watching this? If anything, it might help establish some stupid anti-Wilt-like kind of myth, like "Russell stopped playing defense when he picked 5 fouls" (look how he lets Wilt score and how he tries to protect himself defensively). Good stuff to create a few nice little myths here, right?

[Asukal]

That 4th quarter video had Russell hiding for much of the period, letting Wilt score on Chamberlain's one pass into the post, grabbing two rebounds, brutalized by Wilt on the glass in Chamberlain's six minutes of play, outplayed by stumblebum Counts in the last four minutes, and overall watched helplessly as the Lakers cut a 17 point down to one in the last nine minutes of the game (and 10 of it in the three minutes before Wilt went down with his injury).

THAT was the kind of player Russell was in the last quarter.

BTW, we now KNOW that Wilt had 10 blocked shots in that game, which probably accounted for the fact that the Boston players did not challenge the offensive lane the entire 4th period, even with Chamberlain playing with five fouls.

You are the expert. :rolleyes:

I'm pretty sure you never played basketball. You think one made layup is all that makes a player overrated defensively. :oldlol:

BTW here's the GOAT choker in action:
http://gifsoup.com/view1/3427465/wilt-freethrow-o.gif

[DatAsh]

For real, thank God there's more footage and a lot more knowledge on Russell, because this is embarrassing. Who would believe Russell is a GOAT candidate by watching this? If anything, it might help establish some stupid anti-Wilt-like kind of myth, like "Russell stopped playing defense when he picked 5 fouls" (look how he lets Wilt score and how he tries to protect himself defensively). Good stuff to create a few nice little myths here, right?
Sarcasm? You're a good poster but it can be hard to convey online. Russell played great defense in that footage. To me it speaks much more as a testament for his defense than it does against it. This was Russell in his last year playing with 4-5 fouls, yet he was able to eliminate 7-9 points in one quarter. Offense and rebounding was lacking it that footage, but defense wasn't.