kareem vs russell -- who is the greatest player of all time?

[mehyaM24]

NBA Championships
Kareem: 6
Russell: 11

Longevity
Kareem: 20
Russell: 13

Honors and Awards (Season MVP)
Kareem: 6
Russell: 5

All-NBA First Team
Kareem: 10
Russell: 3

All-NBA Teams (Total Selections)
Kareem: 15
Russell: 11

Scoring Leader
Kareem: 2
Russell: 0

Rebounds Leader
Kareem: 1
Russell: 4

*note didnt include Finals MVP since it wasnt around for the majority of russell's career. as well, russell did have other scoring options and his team was influenced by their defense (their strength).

me personally? i gotta go with kareem because he did it all and, to a certain extent, played against better centers.

[Smoke117]

Kareem. I have him at 1 over Jordan all time...so obviously between these two he'll be my pick.

[SouBeachTalents]

Jordan, but the two in the OP fill out the top 3

[winwin]

Kareem. I have him at 1 over Jordan all time...so obviously between these two he'll be my pick.

[CavaliersFTW]

The top 4 IMO (all for different reasons) have such a solid case who cares but if I was held at gun point and had to list in order of whom I'd choose it'd probably look like this (briefly summarized):

Wilt - MDIE on both ends, when he won he won on 2 of the greatest teams ever. Nobody is even close to his individual dominance.
Russell - MDWE, he was also a truly dominant rebounding and maybe MDE defender
Jabbar - minus the rebounding (well, replace it with longevity), he's sort of a blend of the accolades Wilt and Russell accomplished (though to a lesser degree in both). He's also sort of a blend of their traits (almost as quick and agile as Russell, while almost dwarfing opponents and scoring like Wilt).
MJ - MD backcourt player and "all-around skill" player ever. Could do everything, to the point that he almost had the impact of the greatest bigs ever. Just about amassed as many accolades as Jabbar.

[JellyBean]

To me, Kareem is the greatest player of all time. He was the focal point on his teams through the years. Other teams threw 2-3 defenders on him or created other defensive packages geared to stop him and Kareem still shined. Bill Russell is the greatest winner of all-time. But Kareem is the GOAT, to me.

[juju151111]

Mj And then Kareem

[L.Kizzle]

Sucks they missed out on playing each other by one season.

[LAZERUSS]

I personally have KAJ at either #4 or #5 and either ahead, or behind Russell. Having said that, though, how do those that defend KAJ, explain the fact that a PRIME Kareem, in his first ten years, won ONE ring, went to TWO Finals, lost in the first round TWICE, and missed the playoffs altogether another two years?

Did an aging Kareem suddenly become a much better player? A Kareem who couldn't rebound, or play defense for his life, in the last ten years of his career?

Or maybe it was because of MAGIC that KAJ suddenly started winning rings?

A prime Chamberlain did everything better than a prime Kareem, including WINNING. And even a post-surgery Wilt, playing four years in the league with Kareem was a better "winner." In their four years in the league together, Chamberlain went to THREE Finals, while Kareem only went to ONE. Furthermore, Chamberlain carried HIS teams further in '70, '72, and '73. The only season in which Kareem had more team success, was in '71, and fortunately for him, Chamberlain's two best teammates, West and Baylor, missed the playoffs. Even in that series, the consensus was, Chamberlain outplayed KAJ in three of the five games.

The real question should be...how many rings would Wilt have won had he had MAGIC for TEN seasons?

[moe94]

Go to bed, LAZ.

[senelcoolidge]

I have Kareem at 3. Wilt and MJ ahead of him.

[SHAQisGOAT]

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Russell

[rhowen4]

kareem quite easily imo

[TheMan]

MJ
KAJ
Wilt
Magic
Bird

[Dr.J4ever]

This is a tough one.

Russell had a different role and purpose for his teams. For Russell to be at his best, you had to surround him with good offensive players since he wasn't and can't be the focal point of any offense, but if complemented with the right kind of players, he would produce championships for you.

No need to worry about chemistry issues with Russell. No ego issues. You can easily build around him even in today's game if you surround him with shooters and players who can drive and dish. Athletic players who can go out on the break would be like the icing in Russell's cake. Russell's blocked shots would make sure of that.

If you were a GM, and you were building an NBA team, starting out with a player like Bill Russell, and building around him by drafting offensive players is certainly a compelling case to build a title team. If you want to win, you want Russell.

And yet, KAJ was totally dominant. KAJ was the greatest offensive player of all time. Yes, better than Wilt or Jordan. Everyone knows that the Lakers lived and died in the half court on KaJ's skyhook. They would run all day on the break with Magic, and when things got tough, Magic would dump it inside to the greatest offensive weapon ever.

If I were a GM in today's game, I would take Russell. To me, its easier to build a title team with Russell than with Kareem. No ego issues means I can find offensive players that would complement Russell, and I believe he would do great in today's style since he wouldn't really demand the ball on the low block.

Not that KAJ would be hampered on the low block by today's style of play, but he may be less efficient, and he would still demand to be the focal point of any offense. Could this be why he needed unselfish guards like Oscar and Magic to win titles? Hmmm, hard to say, but there may be something to this.

[Angel Face]

Both are inferior to Jordan. Russell have the rings but doesn't have the stats. Kareem was a sidekick in most of his rings, 2FMVP / 6 championships. Heck a rookie Magic won FMVP over him.

Jordan has the complete package. Combination of accolades, stats, popularity, highlight reel moves, artistry, playoff heroic moments and clutch plays. Undefeated in the Finals and bagged all FMVP in his every trip there. He has the aura that makes everyone shocked and in awe when watching him. Also, every casual fan knows him, I doubt about Russell and Kareem.

Both of them can shine Jordan's shoes. No argument over MJ as the GOAT.

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Russell

[Dragic4Life]

Both are inferior to Jordan. Russell have the rings but doesn't have the stats. Kareem was a sidekick in most of his rings, 2FMVP / 6 championships. Heck a rookie Magic won FMVP over him.

Jordan has the complete package. Combination of accolades, stats, popularity, highlight reel moves, artistry, playoff heroic moments and clutch plays. He has the aura that makes everyone shocked and in awe when watching him. Also, every casual fan knows him, I doubt about Russell and Kareem.

Both of them can shine Jordan's shoes. No argument over MJ as the GOAT.
Agreed.

[ArbitraryWater]

Both are inferior to Jordan. Russell have the rings but doesn't have the stats. Kareem was a sidekick in most of his rings, 2FMVP / 6 championships. Heck a rookie Magic won FMVP over him.

Jordan has the complete package. Combination of accolades, stats, popularity, highlight reel moves, artistry, playoff heroic moments and clutch plays. Undefeated in the Finals and bagged all FMVP in his every trip there. He has the aura that makes everyone shocked and in awe when watching him. Also, every casual fan knows him, I doubt about Russell and Kareem.

Both of them can shine Jordan's shoes. No argument over MJ as the GOAT.

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Russell

I know you hate to say it, but Kareem has a godly combination of rings/stats like MJ... 3 as best player, 4 with elite/goat like type production.

[mehyaM24]

good to see most posters appreciate the 2 goats :applause:

like drj4ever, i have trouble with this because kareem was so dominant and had such amazing longevity, whereas russell won everywhere he went. hell even coached a team to the finals.

maybe we can boil it down like this-
for stability and easy building: russell
total package: kareem

[the mesiah]

Out of those 2 ,Neither is greatest player of all time , but I would rank Lew higher than William

[Pointguard]

Kareem was the better player not the better competitor. If they were contemporaries I believe Russell wins more because he's a great team player.

If Kareem was a contemporary with Jordan I really believe Jordan could have shut him out. I really believe Russell would have gotten Jordan once or twice. Magic might have been the only one to top Russell.

[swagga]

Kareem was the better player not the better competitor. If they were contemporaries I believe Russell wins more because he's a great team player.

If Kareem was a contemporary with Jordan I really believe Jordan could have shut him out. I really believe Russell would have gotten Jordan once or twice. Magic might have been the only one to top Russell.

:biggums:

good luck with those chicago bigs... and with winning from the first day since it took jordan alot of time to learn to play for the team (thanks phil). Kareem was a dominant centerpiece from day 1 until 2 years before his retirement. That means 17 seasons of elite production. NOBODY matches that. And compared to jordan he went through some GOAT matchups and won in the most stakked era of all time, the 80s.... he also won and contended with some poor teams before (please don't mention oscar on his last leg being a star).... did jordan come close to contention/winning with poor teams?.. no.

Kareem is GOAT imo. The college career, the rings, the stats, the longevity. Being able to be both alpha and beta (truly there for the win). Went against wilt, thurmond, walton, 80s celtics, 4-4-4 philly, late 80s detroit. That some badass competition right there. Jordan barely got by the pistons when they aged. Jordan's best position rival was clyde drexler, that's not shabby but compared to wilt, moses malone or thurmond he's a nobody.

I'm tired of this Jordan is undisputed goat shit. KAJ, Magic both have serious cases against him but trolls just try to undermine them because they played together. Also the 5/5 shit which later became 6/6 was started by jordan stans to prop their boy over magic waaaaay back in 1997. Jordan also benefited from an easy era because there were no true superteams besides the bulls .. much like the 60s celtics. If the 80s lakers played in the 90s they probaby ring all decade long.

Won't talk about russell because he's from an older era and benefited from super stack teams relative to league power. Wilt is the goat talent and statpadder but that wasn't coupled with will and dedication.

This jordan brainwashing wasn't there in the early 90s son, people still remembered other GOAT talent. Nowadays it's just untalkable. You get crazy posts like if Jordan was better than magic in the post like low post action doesn't even exist.

As for kareem vs russell I'll take the one that can reliably score a bucket, therefore kareem.

[mehyaM24]

:biggums:

good luck with those chicago bigs... and with winning from the first day since it took jordan alot of time to learn to play for the team (thanks phil). Kareem was a dominant centerpiece from day 1 until 2 years before his retirement. That means 17 seasons of elite production. NOBODY matches that. And compared to jordan he went through some GOAT matchups and won in the most stakked era of all time, the 80s.... he also won and contended with some poor teams before (please don't mention oscar on his last leg being a star).... did jordan come close to contention/winning with poor teams?.. no.

Kareem is GOAT imo. The college career, the rings, the stats, the longevity. Being able to be both alpha and beta (truly there for the win). Went against wilt, thurmond, walton, 80s celtics, 4-4-4 philly, late 80s detroit. That some badass competition right there. Jordan barely got by the pistons when they aged. Jordan's best position rival was clyde drexler, that's not shabby but compared to wilt, moses malone or thurmond he's a nobody.

I'm tired of this Jordan is undisputed goat shit. KAJ, Magic both have serious cases against him but trolls just try to undermine them because they played together. Also the 5/5 shit which later became 6/6 was started by jordan stans to prop their boy over magic waaaaay back in 1997. Jordan also benefited from an easy era because there were no true superteams besides the bulls .. much like the 60s celtics. If the 80s lakers played in the 90s they probaby ring all decade long.

Won't talk about russell because he's from an older era and benefited from super stack teams relative to league power. Wilt is the goat talent and statpadder but that wasn't coupled with will and dedication.

This jordan brainwashing wasn't there in the early 90s son, people still remembered other GOAT talent. Nowadays it's just untalkable. You get crazy posts like if Jordan was better than magic in the post like low post action doesn't even exist.

As for kareem vs russell I'll take the one that can reliably score a bucket, therefore kareem.
some good points

just a note,though. i wouldnt say that ENTIRE 90s decade was weak. the mid-to-late 90s, however had to have been the meekest competition all time.

[ArbitraryWater]

:biggums:

good luck with those chicago bigs... and with winning from the first day since it took jordan alot of time to learn to play for the team (thanks phil). Kareem was a dominant centerpiece from day 1 until 2 years before his retirement. That means 17 seasons of elite production. NOBODY matches that. And compared to jordan he went through some GOAT matchups and won in the most stakked era of all time, the 80s.... he also won and contended with some poor teams before (please don't mention oscar on his last leg being a star).... did jordan come close to contention/winning with poor teams?.. no.

Kareem is GOAT imo. The college career, the rings, the stats, the longevity. Being able to be both alpha and beta (truly there for the win). Went against wilt, thurmond, walton, 80s celtics, 4-4-4 philly, late 80s detroit. That some badass competition right there. Jordan barely got by the pistons when they aged. Jordan's best position rival was clyde drexler, that's not shabby but compared to wilt, moses malone or thurmond he's a nobody.

I'm tired of this Jordan is undisputed goat shit. KAJ, Magic both have serious cases against him but trolls just try to undermine them because they played together. Also the 5/5 shit which later became 6/6 was started by jordan stans to prop their boy over magic waaaaay back in 1997. Jordan also benefited from an easy era because there were no true superteams besides the bulls .. much like the 60s celtics. If the 80s lakers played in the 90s they probaby ring all decade long.

Won't talk about russell because he's from an older era and benefited from super stack teams relative to league power. Wilt is the goat talent and statpadder but that wasn't coupled with will and dedication.

This jordan brainwashing wasn't there in the early 90s son, people still remembered other GOAT talent. Nowadays it's just untalkable. You get crazy posts like if Jordan was better than magic in the post like low post action doesn't even exist.

As for kareem vs russell I'll take the one that can reliably score a bucket, therefore kareem.


:applause:

[Pointguard]

:biggums:

good luck with those chicago bigs... and with winning from the first day since it took jordan alot of time to learn to play for the team (thanks phil). Kareem was a dominant centerpiece from day 1 until 2 years before his retirement. That means 17 seasons of elite production. NOBODY matches that. And compared to jordan he went through some GOAT matchups and won in the most stakked era of all time, the 80s.... he also won and contended with some poor teams before (please don't mention oscar on his last leg being a star).... did jordan come close to contention/winning with poor teams?.. no.

Kareem is GOAT imo. The college career, the rings, the stats, the longevity. Being able to be both alpha and beta (truly there for the win). Went against wilt, thurmond, walton, 80s celtics, 4-4-4 philly, late 80s detroit. That some badass competition right there. Jordan barely got by the pistons when they aged. Jordan's best position rival was clyde drexler, that's not shabby but compared to wilt, moses malone or thurmond he's a nobody.

I'm tired of this Jordan is undisputed goat shit. KAJ, Magic both have serious cases against him but trolls just try to undermine them because they played together. Also the 5/5 shit which later became 6/6 was started by jordan stans to prop their boy over magic waaaaay back in 1997. Jordan also benefited from an easy era because there were no true superteams besides the bulls .. much like the 60s celtics. If the 80s lakers played in the 90s they probaby ring all decade long.

Won't talk about russell because he's from an older era and benefited from super stack teams relative to league power. Wilt is the goat talent and statpadder but that wasn't coupled with will and dedication.

This jordan brainwashing wasn't there in the early 90s son, people still remembered other GOAT talent. Nowadays it's just untalkable. You get crazy posts like if Jordan was better than magic in the post like low post action doesn't even exist.

As for kareem vs russell I'll take the one that can reliably score a bucket, therefore kareem.

Basically, I'm talking about having equal teams with MJ and Kareem as centerpieces. I also think Magic was a better team player than Jordan. No way would Rick Barry with an inferior team win it all on Jordan's watch. No way would Jordan get shut out in four years of bad basketball while Kareem should have been in his peak. I just don't see it. It wasn't until Kareem stepped down that Lakers could win a back to back. There are only a handful of players that you can really say had a way with winning: Russell, Magic, Duncan are at the top of that order.

Kareem played ten years in the 70's and his most productive years and won once. Who in the top ten GOAT list could have pulled that off? Kobe, Lebron and Hakeem who are usually listed end of GOAT list would have at least won twice. '75 - 79 were kind of wide open - even Portland wasn't that experienced. Jordan totally dominated the era of greatest centers. In Kareem's tenure centers were reduced to a significantly weaker role - the weakest it was since Wilt/Russell. Gus Williams, Walt Frazier, Rick Barry were more impressive winning wise with their teams than Kareem was with his. The center's who heavily imprinted wins were Wilt, Cowen's and Reed in the 70's. When Kareem had the center spotlight to himself in the worst consecutive 5 years the league has had since the mid '50's, he couldn't convince the world that the center position meant much for a title at all.

If you can't distinguish yourself when nobody is around, how are you going to do it when the real heavy hitters are around?

Great player and great longevity with Kareem. But he likely has a 16 year career without Magic with two rings tops as the best player. Jordan, if he started in 1970 does his 14 years no less than 8 rings or 9 rings. I would still take Jordan.

I will also say that I believe Wilt was the most serviceable center the league ever had. Coaches were not up for his level of talent. He could do everything that was important from that position at the highest level.

[Pointguard]

some good points

just a note,though. i wouldnt say that ENTIRE 90s decade was weak. the mid-to-late 90s, however had to have been the meekest competition all time.
Want to compare top player's in their prime between the two decades???

Want to compare centers at their best???

Want to compare the players that won in years when MJ and Kareem lost?

[swagga]

Want to compare top player's in their prime between the two decades???

Want to compare centers at their best???

Want to compare the players that won in years when MJ and Kareem lost?

want to compare TEAMS, as they win rings?
want to compare position matchups to see against whom these players earned their stripes and who was their best direct competition?

Your questions mean nothing in terms of team play (which TEAM rings) and position play (which men did they go up against). Who gives a shit jordan beat ewing when starks was the second option ?? who cares that hakeem was a beast when his team was poor?? NOBODY is winning it alone. NOBODY.

[swagga]

Basically, I'm talking about having equal teams with MJ and Kareem as centerpieces. I also think Magic was a better team player than Jordan. No way would Rick Barry with an inferior team win it all on Jordan's watch. No way would Jordan get shut out in four years of bad basketball while Kareem should have been in his peak. I just don't see it. It wasn't until Kareem stepped down that Lakers could win a back to back. There are only a handful of players that you can really say had a way with winning: Russell, Magic, Duncan are at the top of that order.

Kareem played ten years in the 70's and his most productive years and won once. Who in the top ten GOAT list could have pulled that off? Kobe, Lebron and Hakeem who are usually listed end of GOAT list would have at least won twice. '75 - 79 were kind of wide open - even Portland wasn't that experienced. Jordan totally dominated the era of greatest centers. In Kareem's tenure centers were reduced to a significantly weaker role - the weakest it was since Wilt/Russell. Gus Williams, Walt Frazier, Rick Barry were more impressive winning wise with their teams than Kareem was with his. The center's who heavily imprinted wins were Wilt, Cowen's and Reed in the 70's. When Kareem had the center spotlight to himself in the worst consecutive 5 years the league has had since the mid '50's, he couldn't convince the world that the center position meant much for a title at all.

If you can't distinguish yourself when nobody is around, how are you going to do it when the real heavy hitters are around?

Great player and great longevity with Kareem. But he likely has a 16 year career without Magic with two rings tops as the best player. Jordan, if he started in 1970 does his 14 years no less than 8 rings or 9 rings. I would still take Jordan.

I will also say that I believe Wilt was the most serviceable center the league ever had. Coaches were not up for his level of talent. He could do everything that was important from that position at the highest level.

TEAMS win rings. With whom would jordan win 8 or 9 rings? Alone? Does he play 1v5? Does he get the stacked 90s bulls? Does he get a shit team?

wilt couldn't do the most basic thing a basketball player has to do. To play with other people with the purpose of winning. It was always wilt not having time to practice, wilt stat whoring for APG titles, wilt not getting along with the coach, wilt not shooting to make a point, wilt shooting sparsely to win the FG title.
Wilt was never there to win it all for the team. Wilt was there to win it on wilt's terms for wilt's sake ... and some very reasonable HOF teammates couldn't help him do it consistently throughout his career..

Jesus christ, your post reeks of the shit nike pushed in basketball fans mouths for the entire 90s: that the alpha dog wins it by himself. The biggest myth in basketball!

[Asukal]

Russell. He is the GOAT winner and the only one deserving of GOAT talk together with MJ. :applause:

KAJ? I can't seriously consider him in the top 3, I think Magic should get more credit for those 5 rings than KAJ. Even after he retired, the Lakers under Magic's leadership was a title contender. KAJ in his prime lost to teams he shouldn't have lost to. In contrast, MJ in his early years lost to great teams. :confusedshrug:

[colts19]

TEAMS win rings. With whom would jordan win 8 or 9 rings? Alone? Does he play 1v5? Does he get the stacked 90s bulls? Does he get a shit team?

wilt couldn't do the most basic thing a basketball player has to do. To play with other people with the purpose of winning. It was always wilt not having time to practice, wilt stat whoring for APG titles, wilt not getting along with the coach, wilt not shooting to make a point, wilt shooting sparsely to win the FG title.
Wilt was never there to win it all for the team. Wilt was there to win it on wilt's terms for wilt's sake ... and some very reasonable HOF teammates couldn't help him do it consistently throughout his career..

Jesus christ, your post reeks of the shit nike pushed in basketball fans mouths for the entire 90s: that the alpha dog wins it by himself. The biggest myth in basketball!

This may be the best post I have ever read. Thank You.

[Poochymama]

1. Russell
2. Jordan
3. Kareem
4. Bird
5. Magic
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Wilt
9. Kobe
10. Lebron

Close, but gotta go with Russell. BR releasing the defensive and offensive ratings of 60s teams really changed my mind on Russell.

[PHILA]

Russell clearly. Boston's defense went from -6.4 to -0.1 the year after he retired at age 35. It peaked at -10.8 in 1964, which is unheard of any era. No player has ever been more valuable to a franchise, nor has any single player revolutionized the sport quite the same. I would take him over KAJ both as a college and NBA center. In looking at the disrespect towards Russell among most NBA fans now, I don't know if it is a Lakers bias, era favoritism, or a preference towards pure shooting touch, seeing as that is the only advantage KAJ has on Russell in tangible physical skills. Intangibly, there is no comparison.

[Dr.J4ever]

:biggums:

good luck with those chicago bigs... and with winning from the first day since it took jordan alot of time to learn to play for the team (thanks phil). Kareem was a dominant centerpiece from day 1 until 2 years before his retirement. That means 17 seasons of elite production. NOBODY matches that. And compared to jordan he went through some GOAT matchups and won in the most stakked era of all time, the 80s.... he also won and contended with some poor teams before (please don't mention oscar on his last leg being a star).... did jordan come close to contention/winning with poor teams?.. no.

Kareem is GOAT imo. The college career, the rings, the stats, the longevity. Being able to be both alpha and beta (truly there for the win). Went against wilt, thurmond, walton, 80s celtics, 4-4-4 philly, late 80s detroit. That some badass competition right there. Jordan barely got by the pistons when they aged. Jordan's best position rival was clyde drexler, that's not shabby but compared to wilt, moses malone or thurmond he's a nobody.

I'm tired of this Jordan is undisputed goat shit. KAJ, Magic both have serious cases against him but trolls just try to undermine them because they played together. Also the 5/5 shit which later became 6/6 was started by jordan stans to prop their boy over magic waaaaay back in 1997. Jordan also benefited from an easy era because there were no true superteams besides the bulls .. much like the 60s celtics. If the 80s lakers played in the 90s they probaby ring all decade long.

Won't talk about russell because he's from an older era and benefited from super stack teams relative to league power. Wilt is the goat talent and statpadder but that wasn't coupled with will and dedication.

This jordan brainwashing wasn't there in the early 90s son, people still remembered other GOAT talent. Nowadays it's just untalkable. You get crazy posts like if Jordan was better than magic in the post like low post action doesn't even exist.

As for kareem vs russell I'll take the one that can reliably score a bucket, therefore kareem.

I thoroughly agree with all this Jordan is undisputed goat stuff. It's bogus.

Jordan played in a relatively weaker 90s era. It was diluted and it was acknowledged by observers back then. Jordan never faced a "super team" in the Finals any year. The Jazz LOL.

Still 6/6 is 6/6, but like Marciano. Ali is universally ranked higher by experts over Marciano, even though Rocky went undefeated, and Ali has a handful of losses. Why? Ali faced giants in the ring, plain and simple.

Jordan? Sorry, I just didn't see it.

[DatAsh]

I thoroughly agree with all this Jordan is undisputed goat stuff. It's bogus.

Jordan played in a relatively weaker 90s era. It was diluted and it was acknowledged by observers back then. Jordan never faced a "super team" in the Finals any year. The Jazz LOL.

Still 6/6 is 6/6, but like Marciano. Ali is universally ranked higher by experts over Marciano, even though Rocky went undefeated, and Ali has a handful of losses. Why? Ali faced giants in the ring, plain and simple.

Jordan? Sorry, I just didn't see it.

Where do you rank Jordan?

[LAZERUSS]

TEAMS win rings. With whom would jordan win 8 or 9 rings? Alone? Does he play 1v5? Does he get the stacked 90s bulls? Does he get a shit team?

wilt couldn't do the most basic thing a basketball player has to do. To play with other people with the purpose of winning. It was always wilt not having time to practice, wilt stat whoring for APG titles, wilt not getting along with the coach, wilt not shooting to make a point, wilt shooting sparsely to win the FG title.
Wilt was never there to win it all for the team. Wilt was there to win it on wilt's terms for wilt's sake ... and some very reasonable HOF teammates couldn't help him do it consistently throughout his career..

Jesus christ, your post reeks of the shit nike pushed in basketball fans mouths for the entire 90s: that the alpha dog wins it by himself. The biggest myth in basketball!

TEAMs do win rings. That is why MJ was 1-9 in his first ten playoff games, couldn't beat the Pistons in three straight post-seasons, and didn't win a ring until he had the best supporting rosters in the league.

That is why Russell's Celtics, the most stacked rosters of all-time, and with the most clutch supporting (and LEADING players, like Havlicek in '68 and '69) won 11 rings. Hell, his '58 team BARELY lost with him missing over half of the series, and his team playing better without him, than with him.

Kareem? Was the best player in the league in the entire decade of the 70's. And played on TWO teams that went to the Finals, and won ONE ring...in his 10 prime seasons. He also was swept with HCA in one, lost another with HCA in the first round, was beaten with stacked rosters, TWICE, by a Seattle team with one borderline HOF player, and missed the playoffs entirely in two straight seasons.

Shaq? Swept SIX times in the playoffs. Hell, he went 1-8 against Greg Ostertag, and was awful in one of their series H2H's.

Bird? Lost with HCA SEVEN times, and was either ordinary, or awful in most of them. Hell, he won a ring in a Finals in which he averaged 15 ppg on a .419 FG%.

Hakeem? Wasn't even considered a Top-5 player for the vast majority of his career, and won ONE MVP in a season in which the best player in the league took the year off. In 18 seasons he played on FIVE teams that won 50+ games, with a high of 58 wins. He only went to four Conference Finals, three Finals, and won two rings in seasons in which MJ took the year off, or his TEAMMATES overwhelmed Shaq's. He also missed the playoffs HALF of his career, and was wiped out in the First Round EIGHT times.

Kobe? Without question, the WORST Finals' performer of all of the Top-10 players of all-time. Single handedly shot his team's out of the Finals in '04 and '08. And his last games in all of his Finals are among the worst of all-time.

Wilt did MORE things than ANY other player.

1. His COACH looked at his pathetic cast of clowns in '61-62, and asked Wilt to play 49 mpg and shoot 40 times per game. The result? Chamberlain took a team, the core of which was the same last place roster he inherited two years earlier, and led them to a game seven, two point loss, against the HOF-laden 60-20 Celtics, in, as always, a series in which he crushed Russell, and did so with his teammates collectively shooting .345 in it.

2. His new coach in '63-64 conducted a pre-season scrimmage, sans Wilt, with his returning roster, and a group of rookies and scrubs. He was absolutely horrified when the scrubs won. HE then asked Wilt to become a more all-around player, and Chamberlain played the best defense ever played by anyone not named Russell. He took a 31-49 roster to a 48-32 record, and a very competitive Finals against the Celtics and their EIGHT HOFers, in a series in which he just carpet-bombed Russell.

3. That is why a 64-65 Chamberlain took a 40-40 team, with the same roster that went 34-46 the year before, and didn't make the playoffs, thru a first round romp over Oscar's stacked 48-32 Royals, and then to a game seven, one point loss against the 62-18 Celtics, in a series in which he just obliterated Russell.

4. That is why in 66-67, and under his another new COACH, he became a facilitator, and with finally a supporting roster the equal of Russell's, led them to an all-time best record, and then in the playoffs, he and his team just castrated Russell and his eight-time defending, and 60-21, Celtics.

5. That is why, in the very next year he set out to lead the league in assists, and not only accomplished the feat, he led his TEAM to the a RUNAWAY BEST RECORD. Furthermore, if he, and HALF of his TEAMMATES had not been decimated by injuries, they would certainly have repeated their previous year annihilation of the Celtics. As it was, a Chamberlain playing every minute of a series, in which NO ONE ELSE would have under the same circumstances, was able to take a shell of a roster to a game seven, four point loss.

6. Or that with his new team in 68-69, and under an incompetent coach, he STILL did whatever was asked of him, and had to painfully watch from the bench in the last five minutes of a game seven in which his TEAM, and with his TEAMMATES collectively outshot by Russell's, .477 to .360, lose by TWO points. In a series in which the Lakers were ONE PLAY away from winning, 4-1.

7. Or the Wilt who came back a YEAR AHEAD of schedule from major knee surgery, and played at WAY less than 100%, because he wanted to help his TEAMMATES, and with a much poorer roster, and on basically one-leg, he got them to a game seven against the same Knick team that buried KAJ's 56-26 Bucks, 4-1 in the ECF's. And he did so with the ONLY 20-20- .600 Finals in NBA history.

8. Or the Wilt, overwhelmingly outgunned by Kareem and his 66-16 Bucks in the '71 WCF's, STILL outplayed a PEAK Kareem in a series loss. And as he left the floor in the last minute of the last game, he received a STANDING OVATION. Oh, and BTW, ...the game was played in MILWAUKEE!

9. Or the Wilt, in 71-72, and with yet ANOTHER new COACH, was asked to concentrate on defense, rebounding, and starting the break, and with one of the oldest rosters in the league (and league history), he led them to a then best ever record, at 69-13, which included 33 straight wins. Then, a 35 year old Wilt, in the twilight of his career, completely reduced a PEAK Kareem to a shot-jacking brick-layer in the last four games of the '72 WCF's, and led his team past a Bucks team that virtually EVERYONE believed would not only repeat as champions, but would be the next great dynasty.

Then, he dominated in the Finals, and even played the clinching game five with shattered wrist (the same injury that routinely side-lined Kareem for chunks of seasons), and led his team to their first ever title in Los Angeles, and all with his best teammate shooting .325 from the field...en route to a FMVP.

10. Or the Wilt who led his 72-73 team to a 60-22 record, and then crushed the same Warrior team that wiped out Kareem's 60-22 Bucks in the first round. And in the Finals, with his overmatched and injury-riddled roster, he kept LA in all four losses into the final minute, and in his very LAST game of his entire career, he put up a 23-21 game.


The REALITY was, in Wilt's first six seasons, he played on the worst rosters in the league, and STILL got them to four conference Finals, and a Finals, and lost two of those in game seven's to FAR superior Celtic teams.

The REALITY was, in Wilt's Philly years, he led them to the BEST RECORD in the league THREE straight seasons, including a 68-13 team that was perhaps the most dominant in NBA history, and would surely have repeated had not HALF the team been injured.

The REALITY was, in his five Laker seasons, he led his team to the Conference Finals EVERY year, and then to the Finals in FOUR of his FIVE seasons. He also accomplished considerably more from a TEAM standpoint, than a PEAK Kareem.

The REALITY was, Chamberlain not only PLAYED with injuries that would have had other players in ICU, he STILL played BRILLIANTLY. In fact, he was STILL putting up 20-20 post-season series while either noticeably limping, or with BOTH wrists heavily-bandaged. And he PLAYED nearly EVERY minute in them, as well.

Players like Russell missed chunks of games with an ankle injury. Or Kareem missed a clinching title game with a sprained ankle (and CHUNKS of seasons with a broken wrist, and even games with headaches.) Or Wilis Reed was lauded for doing absolutely nothing in a game seven in which his TEAMMATES completely shelled Wilt's. And in the same game, Chamberlain, only four months removed from major knee surgery, hung a 21-24 game, and was the ONLY Laker to play well.

Yep, Wilt the "selfish" "loser" who "choked."

[Dr.J4ever]

Where do you rank Jordan?

Kareem or Russell as 1 or 2, and then Jordan.

[Pointguard]

TEAMS win rings. With whom would jordan win 8 or 9 rings? Alone? Does he play 1v5? Does he get the stacked 90s bulls? Does he get a shit team?
I said equal teams. Rick Barry won with rookie Jamal Wilkes as the easily the second best player. On the 78 and 79 teams Jamal was arguably the third best player after Kareem and Dantley. He wasn't clearly better than Nixon either or Lou Hudson the year before that. Give Jordan, Kareems teams with just a serviceable center. When nobody is dominant, the dominant stand out more. Jordan weeded out players on his team that were scared or not into winning. From 1975 to 79 there were no dynastic teams, no teams much more experienced than others and no player that had that killer mentality like Jordan. No player that stood out as a superior winner.


wilt couldn't do the most basic thing a basketball player has to do. To play with other people with the purpose of winning. It was always wilt not having time to practice, wilt stat whoring for APG titles, wilt not getting along with the coach, wilt not shooting to make a point, wilt shooting sparsely to win the FG title.
Wilt was never there to win it all for the team. Wilt was there to win it on wilt's terms for wilt's sake ... and some very reasonable HOF teammates couldn't help him do it consistently throughout his career. Wilt had did as much as Kareem did in the 70's winning wise??? Magic totally flipped Kareem's losing ways.

[DatAsh]

Kareem or Russell as 1 or 2, and then Jordan.

Cool beans. I was just curious.

[swagga]

I said equal teams. Rick Barry won with rookie Jamal Wilkes as the easily the second best player. On the 78 and 79 teams Jamal was arguably the third best player after Kareem and Dantley. He wasn't clearly better than Nixon either or Lou Hudson the year before that. Give Jordan, Kareems teams with just a serviceable center. When nobody is dominant, the dominant stand out more.

with this reasoning wilt has to have at least 10 rings... and we come again to the conclusion that TEAMS ring. If we take out every player out the top 10 MVP and every player which had more than 20ppg last year and put lebron on the 76ers he ain't winning. He's not even making it out the 2nd round.



Jordan weeded out players on his team that were scared or not into winning.


:biggums: are you for real son? wtf did I just read? Did players audition before jordan? LOL that's some utter crap. If jordan did anything for his teammates was to be an asshole and he almost got his shit pushed in because of this, as you should know.



From 1975 to 79 there were no dynastic teams, no teams much more experienced than others and no player that had that killer mentality like Jordan. No player that stood out as a superior winner.
Wilt had did as much as Kareem did in the 70's winning wise??? Magic totally flipped Kareem's losing ways.

yet wilt had jerry west and baylor. You could say that magic was the missing piece for kareem's team just like scottie pippen was the missing piece for jordan's team. As worthy/scott were that piece that puts you over the top like oakley/rodman

Please stop with this alpha dog crap, it's cringing. Wes unseld's leg? Stockon playing thourgh shitloads of injuries? Ewing giving it for an incompetent franchise? Malone at 38 on his last leg? Jerry west and his fears? Isiah ankle? etc.... many many great players were super competitors.
Sometimes this competitivity went overboard and great players were trying to prove a point rather than win:
- kobe not passing to prove he is the man 2004,
- wilt on many occasions as I've previously said,
- lebron not shooting 2011 thinking that he'd hurt his team by overshooting
- iso jordan for much of his young career
- a myriad other examples
Still competitive but misguided, aka competitivity without leadership. Some learned from their mistakes others didn't, but they didn't fear winning. Btw if jordan was SO competitive and wanted to win so much why did he retire when he only had 3 rings?

I didn't even talk about big vs wing defensive impact...big man's game and all. Jordan is phenomenal as he is the only GOAT level player that is under 6'6'. All the others are 6'9'+ (bird,magic,russell, kareem, lebron - argue all you want, duncan, hakeem, wilt). Or whistles and special refereeing, lebron gets some but it's not on the same level with jordan.

Jordan is just a GOAT level player with the GOAT media. That's what set him appart and that's why we hear this constant crap about him being an untouchable god. He isn't. He had his fair share of bad days. Bad shooting. Bad leadership. Bad whistles for defenders.

[ArbitraryWater]

Russell clearly. Boston's defense went from -6.4 to -0.1 the year after he retired at age 35. It peaked at -10.8 in 1964, which is unheard of any era. No player has ever been more valuable to a franchise, nor has any single player revolutionized the sport quite the same. I would take him over KAJ both as a college and NBA center. In looking at the disrespect towards Russell among most NBA fans now, I don't know if it is a Lakers bias, era favoritism, or a preference towards pure shooting touch, seeing as that is the only advantage KAJ has on Russell in tangible physical skills. Intangibly, there is no comparison.

Come on now :facepalm

It's actually scoring, by a landslide.

[Pointguard]

:biggums: are you for real son? wtf did I just read?

That is exactly your problem you don't read! And I'm not going to say my bad, I forgot you don't read. Jordan had great influence on who stayed on those teams. Horace Grant, Corzine, Will Purdue were all given one way tickets out. Brad Sellers and Stacey King lost their confidence before they were booted too.


Did players audition before jordan? LOL that's some utter crap.
Well being that you "jus, don't know" Craig Hodges was semi-released from the team (amazingly he could be in the NBA three point shootout, but not allowed on any team) because of his comments on Jordan's politics. Nothing to do with basketball. Auditioning is lesser part of getting in on the team.



I didn't even talk about big vs wing defensive impact...big man's game and all. Jordan is phenomenal as he is the only GOAT level player that is under 6'6'. All the others are 6'9'+ (bird,magic,russell, kareem, lebron - argue all you want, duncan, hakeem, wilt). Or whistles and special refereeing, lebron gets some but it's not on the same level with jordan.

Jordan dominated the era of great bigs. The greatest skilled big and the most dominant big were included in that package. Ironically, the Bulls perimeter defense had more impact than the many great defensive bigs of Jordan's era did.


Jordan is just a GOAT level player with the GOAT media. That's what set him appart and that's why we hear this constant crap about him being an untouchable god. He isn't. He had his fair share of bad days. Bad shooting. Bad leadership. Bad whistles for defenders.
Actually he didn't have his fair share. He had far less bad important games than anybody. In fact I will guarantee you that I can show you three or four times as many bad series/games by any other top player, even second best isn't going to look good next to Jordan. That was his most remarkable trait. He always came to play. You can't name two series where he was outplayed. I doubt he's ever cost his team a series. There aren't three series where another player played better than him. He's definitely different in that regards.

[colts19]

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]TEAMs do win rings. That is why MJ was 1-9 in his first ten playoff games, couldn't beat the Pistons in three straight post-seasons, and didn't win a ring until he had the best supporting rosters in the league.

That is why Russell's Celtics, the most stacked rosters of all-time, and with the most clutch supporting (and LEADING players, like Havlicek in '68 and '69) won 11 rings. Hell, his '58 team BARELY lost with him missing over half of the series, and his team playing better without him, than with him.

Kareem? Was the best player in the league in the entire decade of the 70's. And played on TWO teams that went to the Finals, and won ONE ring...in his 10 prime seasons. He also was swept with HCA in one, lost another with HCA in the first round, was beaten with stacked rosters, TWICE, by a Seattle team with one borderline HOF player, and missed the playoffs entirely in two straight seasons.

Shaq? Swept SIX times in the playoffs. Hell, he went 1-8 against Greg Ostertag, and was awful in one of their series H2H's.

Bird? Lost with HCA SEVEN times, and was either ordinary, or awful in most of them. Hell, he won a ring in a Finals in which he averaged 15 ppg on a .419 FG%.

Hakeem? Wasn't even considered a Top-5 player for the vast majority of his career, and won ONE MVP in a season in which the best player in the league took the year off. In 18 seasons he played on FIVE teams that won 50+ games, with a high of 58 wins. He only went to four Conference Finals, three Finals, and won two rings in seasons in which MJ took the year off, or his TEAMMATES overwhelmed Shaq's. He also missed the playoffs HALF of his career, and was wiped out in the First Round EIGHT times.

Kobe? Without question, the WORST Finals' performer of all of the Top-10 players of all-time. Single handedly shot his team's out of the Finals in '04 and '08. And his last games in all of his Finals are among the worst of all-time.

You may not realize this but your constant picking stats to use against other great players tend to wear on people. I have always been a big Wilt fan, and hope that you try to be a little more fair in the way you post things.

Wilts only weakness was his free throw shooting, but you can't even admit that. You change it to Wilt had a greater impact at the free throw line than the great free throw shooters did because he shot so many. When it comes to Wilt you only look at the positive, How about the negative. All those free throws that he missed had to cost a game or two. Maybe even a Championship or 2,3 or 4. Wilt had 4 seasons where he missed more free thows in a season than Larry Bird missed his whole career. Season of 624, 527, 553 and 579. Bird missed 511 in thirteen years. Wilt missed 5805.

Kareem, Russell, MJ, Magic, Bird. What do they have in common. None of them were Historically bad at any part of the game. Wilt for all of his greatness, was by far the worst ever among the great plays. None of these players were perfect, but Come on Man.

[Pointguard]

Wilts only weakness was his free throw shooting, but you can't even admit that. You change it to Wilt had a greater impact at the free throw line than the great free throw shooters did because he shot so many. When it comes to Wilt you only look at the positive, How about the negative. All those free throws that he missed had to cost a game or two. Maybe even a Championship or 2,3 or 4. Wilt had 4 seasons where he missed more free thows in a season than Larry Bird missed his whole career. Season of 624, 527, 553 and 579. Bird missed 511 in thirteen years. Wilt missed 5805.

Kareem, Russell, MJ, Magic, Bird. What do they have in common. None of them were Historically bad at any part of the game. Wilt for all of his greatness, was by far the worst ever among the great plays. None of these players were perfect, but Come on Man.[/B]

I think Lazeruss responds to the onslaught against Wilt. People who are trying to take everything away from Wilt. Even you are talking about his weakness when he arguably had more extraordinary strengths than any other player ever.

Russell was a bad foul shooter too, in case you didn't know. Magic and Bird weren't good one on one defenders.

[colts19]

I think Lazeruss responds to the onslaught against Wilt. People who are trying to take everything away from Wilt. Even you are talking about his weakness when he arguably had more extraordinary strengths than any other player ever.

Russell was a bad foul shooter too, in case you didn't know. Magic and Bird weren't good one on one defenders.

I think he causes a lot of the onslaught against Wilt. I agree Russell was a bad free throw shooter, but it didn't cost his team championships like Wilt did.

Magic and Bird weren't good one on one defenders. But they weren't the worst ever. Its not even about that, its about how he twist facts to degrade every other player but will not apply the same standard to Wilt.

Like I said I am a big Wilt fan. But if one of those guys went 1 for 11 from the line, and his team lost a championship. He would be ripping said player.

[Psileas]

I think he causes a lot of the onslaught against Wilt. I agree Russell was a bad free throw shooter, but it didn't cost his team championships like Wilt did.

Magic and Bird weren't good one on one defenders. But they weren't the worst ever. Its not even about that, its about how he twist facts to degrade every other player but will not apply the same standard to Wilt.

Like I said I am a big Wilt fan. But if one of those guys went 1 for 11 from the line, and his team lost a championship. He would be ripping said player.

It's exactly what anti-Wilt guys do for Wilt vs the others. Honestly, I don't see many who can be seen as impartial enough to blame Laz for being so without being hypocrites.
Btw, not all fields can realistically count the same. As bad a FT shooter as Wilt was, the impact of bad FT shooting usually doesn't come close to matching the impact of bad FG shooting and bad defense. 3 bad defensive plays that will lead to 3 opponent layups count as much as 6 missed FT's and so do 3 missed FG's by someone who shot 7-20 instead of 10-20.
So, if there was a game when Wilt missed 6 FT's and his team lost by 1 but we took all the potential (and realistic) plays that could have won the game for Wilt's team, there would be dozens of bad plays to attribute to just about everyone out there and most ignore just about all of them save for Wilt's FT's (and, yes, obviously FT's are the technically easiest part and Wilt was among the worst at it, but he was similarly among the best at the toughest part of it - FG's, which more than evens out).

[Psileas]

Like I said I am a big Wilt fan. But if one of those guys went 1 for 11 from the line, and his team lost a championship. He would be ripping said player.

Maybe he would, and it's an actual fact that some have blamed Wilt for this (so, they are as bad as Laz in your scenario), but he would be wrong (and so are they). That game was a blowout, the final score doesn't do justice, and even the final score still wouldn't be covered by even a perfect 11-11 FT shooting.

[CavaliersFTW]

I think he causes a lot of the onslaught against Wilt. I agree Russell was a bad free throw shooter, but it didn't cost his team championships like Wilt did.

Magic and Bird weren't good one on one defenders. But they weren't the worst ever. Its not even about that, its about how he twist facts to degrade every other player but will not apply the same standard to Wilt.

Like I said I am a big Wilt fan. But if one of those guys went 1 for 11 from the line, and his team lost a championship. He would be ripping said player.
Disagree entirely, there are people who refuse to give Wilt the credit and praise he is due as a GOAT candidate and try to slam him for numerous fabrications and exaggerations whether they are aware of Laz's existence or not. Take Bill Simmons for example. The guy only told half truths and made up criticisms out of thin air in order to slam the legacy of Wilt to prop up the legacy of Bill Russell, not that that should have even been necessary. But he did it, and the book was unfortunately a huge success and people who don't know any better trust his BS, as I hear it spread everywhere on the net and in other sports writers articles, not just here on ISH. We need more fans like Laz, who are not afraid to challenge fabricated or exaggerated criticisms towards players like Wilt.

[CavaliersFTW]

How does every critic of Wilt's free throw percentage forget Bill Russell's?

Also, most of them haven't got a clue about the 1 to make 2 and 2 to make 3 rule in Wilt's era, and how that dramatically increased the effectiveness of guys who weren't great at the line like Wilt and Russell vs how the game is played today. They got extra chances to make a free throw when they missed. They weren't "costing teams championships" with their free throw shooting.

If Wilt goes to the line for a 3 point And-1 style play and he misses the first shot ... he gets another try. Even as a lowly 50% free throw shooter he's statistically likely to always convert on 3 point plays. It might show up on a stat sheet as 1 for 2 ... but he technically was likely to be "perfect" on completing the play and getting the maximum amount of points possible on 3 point opportunities.

If Wilt goes to the line for 2 free throws getting fouled before a shot, he's got not just 2 chances to make points, but 3. If he misses any one of his first two shots (or both) he's still got a 3rd chance to hit a shot. If he's a 50% free throw shooter, it means he (over the course of his career) averaged 1.5 points every time he was fouled before a shot. Even if it shows up as 3 for 6. This is huge in increasing his impact at the line, his percentages don't reflect this.

[DatAsh]

Disagree entirely, there are people who refuse to give Wilt the credit and praise he is due as a GOAT candidate and try to slam him for numerous fabrications and exaggerations whether they are aware of Laz's existence or not. Take Bill Simmons for example. The guy only told half truths and made up criticisms out of thin air in order to slam the legacy of Wilt to prop up the legacy of Bill Russell, not that that should have even been necessary. But he did it, and the book was unfortunately a huge success and people who don't know any better trust his BS, as I hear it spread everywhere on the net and in other sports writers articles, not just here on ISH. We need more fans like Laz, who are not afraid to challenge fabricated or exaggerated criticisms towards players like Wilt.

Lets be honest, guys like Deuce, Millwad, and the small force of recent anti-Wilt band wagoners only disparage Wilt to antagonize Laz. Then you have the army of one-line-heroes, who again are only there to antagonize Lazerus.

I can only think of one knowledgeable and influential anti-Wilt poster that was here before Jlauber/Lazerus, but as far I can tell he no longer posts here - and hasn't for several years.

There are a couple guys I'm for which I'm not entirely sure of their motives, but I wouldn't necessarily call them Wilt bashers.

[DatAsh]

My only real problem with Lazerus(though I stopped reading his posts long ago) is that he's constantly disparaging other players(especially Bird and Hakeem).

He's a very knowledgeable guy when it comes to stats from that era, but he could do a better job at sharing that knowledge.

[ArbitraryWater]

My only real problem with Lazerus(though I stopped reading his posts long ago) is that he's constantly disparaging other players(especially Bird and Hakeem).

He's a very knowledgeable guy when it comes to stats from that era, but he could do a better job at sharing that knowledge.

I remember excitedly reading jlauber's posts when I found them for the first time.. Now its just blah blah blah, especially after so much of his shit has been exposed.

[CavaliersFTW]

Lets be honest, guys like Deuce, Millwad, and the small force of recent anti-Wilt band wagoners only disparage Wilt to antagonize Laz. Then you have the army of one-line-heroes, who again are only there to antagonize Lazerus.

I can only think of one knowledgeable and influential anti-Wilt poster that was here before Jlauber/Lazerus, but as far I can tell he no longer posts here - and hasn't for several years.

There are a couple guys I'm for which I'm not entirely sure of their motives, but I wouldn't necessarily call them Wilt bashers.
True for ish, but from my YT channel and accounts on other boards I encounter a lot of other people that are dishonestly critical of wilt or wilts era elsewhere on the net. Fatal9 is the poster you speak of btw, is he not? The guy who used to call Wilt clumsy looking and uncoordinated in the post due to his own upload of wilts missed shots in the 64 and 67 game halves?

[colts19]

My only real problem with Lazerus(though I stopped reading his posts long ago) is that he's constantly disparaging other players(especially Bird and Hakeem).

He's a very knowledgeable guy when it comes to stats from that era, but he could do a better job at sharing that knowledge.

That's what I was saying until everything got twisted around.

[Asukal]

Jlauber is a poser. His low understanding of the game apart from stats is even more evident when he said Russell didn't do anything in that 1969 4thQ footage. The only reason why a lot of people here disparage Wilt now is because of him. Good job lauber. :applause:

[c5terror]

MJ

Please. Anyone who has teammate inside top 10 all-time on his championship run doesn't deserve to be the GOAT

[Pointguard]

True for ish, but from my YT channel and accounts on other boards I encounter a lot of other people that are dishonestly critical of wilt or wilts era elsewhere on the net. Fatal9 is the poster you speak of btw, is he not? The guy who used to call Wilt clumsy looking and uncoordinated in the post due to his own upload of wilts missed shots in the 64 and 67 game halves?
I don't think its Fatal9. Fatal9 was gone before Datash came aboard. Fatal9 seemed to go shortly after I arrived and he was more like a basher. More than likely he's talking about ShaqAttack or Regul8r who weren't haters of Wilt but would sometimes seemingly underestimate him.

[DatAsh]

I don't think its Fatal9. Fatal9 was gone before Datash came aboard. Fatal9 seemed to go shortly after I arrived and he was more like a basher. More than likely he's talking about ShaqAttack or Regul8r who weren't haters of Wilt but would sometimes seemingly underestimate him.

I was talking about Fatal9 :)

[Pointguard]

I was talking about Fatal9 :)
My bad. You obviously used some adjectives that threw us off. And he left before you were posting. Did you lurk for a couple of years???

Have to ask, are you fatal9?

[ArbitraryWater]

Fatal9.. :bowdown:

ShaqAttack :bowdown:

And me in the Abraham Lincoln Gimmick.. Ah good days.

[Pointguard]

Fatal9.. :bowdown:

ShaqAttack :bowdown:

And me in the Abraham Lincoln Gimmick.. Ah good days.

Right, you as Abe.

[ArbitraryWater]

Right, you as Abe.

Didn't think I got that old English tribe on deck did ya?

[Pointguard]

Didn't think I got that old English tribe on deck did ya?
HA but who knows.