Kareem vs Wilt

[SHAQisGOAT]

Who would you pick coming into the league? And at their best?

Who's higher on your all-time list?

[gts]

Who would you pick coming into the league? And at their best?

Who's higher on your all-time list?


Kareem, with 20/20 hindsight for his overall career or without just knowing his resume coming out of college

I have Kareem as the GOAT basketball player

[LAZERUSS]

Aside from FT shooting, Chamberlain was better at virtually every aspect of the game. And even FT shooting is deceptive, since KAJ averaged 335 MADE FTs per season in his career, while Chamberlain averaged 432 MADE FTs per season in his.

Scoring titles: Wilt with a 7-2 margin.
FG% titles: Wilt with a 9-1 margin.
Rebounding titles: Wilt with an 11-1 margin (and outrebounded Kareem vry season in their four years in the league together.
Assist Titles: Wilt with a 1-0 margin, and also had another season in which he came in third.

How about Blocked Shots?
In Wilt's last season in the league, he averaged 5.4 bpg. The NBA began "officially" recording blocked shots the very next season (and they waited until Wilt retired BTW)...KAJ averaged 3.5 bpg that very next year, and his high season was 4.1 bpg. BTW, in their known H2Hs, Chamberlain blocked considerably more shots.

How about First Team All-Defense?

The NBA didn't have this award until the '68-69 season. In Wilt's LAST two seasons, he was voted First Team All Defense over Kareem (and other's.)

[Proctor]

Kareem, with 20/20 hindsight for his overall career or without just knowing his resume coming out of college

I have Kareem as the GOAT basketball player
This. I only give Wilt the nod in terms of athleticism.

[fpliii]

idk

Probably would go Wilt, but I'm very impressed by Kareem as I see more of him. There are a ton of games of him in his prime available, I want to watch as much as possible.

[Sarcastic]

Imagine Wilt getting to play half his career with someone like Magic Johnson or Oscar Robertson, and that Kareem had to go at it alone.


Actually we've seen Kareem go at it alone. Didn't go so well.

[dunksby]

Kareem all the way, considering his dominance in HS and college. In hindsight it's even less of a dilemma.

[Asukal]

Imagine Wilt getting to play half his career with someone like Magic Johnson or Oscar Robertson, and that Kareem had to go at it alone.


Actually we've seen Kareem go at it alone. Didn't go so well.

Imagine Wilt playing with someone like Jerry West and Elgin Baylor... Oh wait he did. :rolleyes:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Boiled down:::

KAJ: 6/10
Wilt: 2/6

[LAZERUSS]

Imagine Wilt playing with someone like Jerry West and Elgin Baylor... Oh wait he did. :rolleyes:

Yep...

Chamberlain played a COMBINED SIX post-seasons with West and Baylor, and out of those, West played well in TWO (and horribly in game seven of even one of those), and Baylor was decent in one (nothing more), and AWFUL in the other.

Meanwhile, KAJ played a COMBINED 16 season post-seasons with Magic and Worthy. Those two combined for FOUR FMVPs, and overall, were FAR better in their post-seasons with Kareem, than Baylor and West were with Chamberlain.

As good as West was in '69 and '70, Magic was equally as great in '80, '82, '87, and '88. Andf Magic was better in '81, '83, '84, '85, and '86 than West was in '72 and '73. And Worthy was better in his ALL SIX of his post-seasons that Baylor was in either of his TWO with Chamberlain.

And I while West put up a 42-13-12 game seven on 14-29 FG/FGA, and 14-18 FT/FTA, in a game seven loss with Wilt (who was saddled on the bench in the last five minutes of that two-point loss), Magic put up a 42-15-7 game on 14-23 FG/FGA, and 14-14 FT/FTA, in a clinching game six win...with Kareem watching the game from home on his couch.

Magic dominated every guard he faced in his post-season career. West played well in '69, was crushed by Frazier in game seven of the '70 Finals, was murdered by Frazier in the entire '72 Finals, and was outplayed by Frazier in the '73 Finals.

Give Wilt Magic and Worthy, both of whom ELEVATED their games in their combined 16 post-seasons with Kareem, and he would have won far more rings than what he got with West and Baylor in their six with Wilt.

[Asukal]

Yep...

Chamberlain played a COMBINED SIX post-seasons with West and Baylor, and out of those, West played well in TWO (and horribly in game seven of even one of those), and Baylor was decent in one (nothing more), and AWFUL in the other.

Meanwhile, KAJ played a COMBINED 16 season post-seasons with Magic and Worthy. Those two combined for FOUR FMVPs, and overall, were FAR better in their post-seasons with Kareem, than Baylor and West were with Chamberlain.

As good as West was in '69 and '70, Magic was equally as great in '80, '82, '87, and '88. Andf Magic was better in '81, '83, '84, '85, and '86 than West was in '72 and '73. And Worthy was better in his ALL SIX of his post-seasons that Baylor was in either of his TWO with Chamberlain.

And I while West put up a 42-13-12 game seven on 14-29 FG/FGA, and 14-18 FT/FTA, in a game seven loss with Wilt (who was saddled on the bench in the last five minutes of that two-point loss), Magic put up a 42-15-7 game on 14-23 FG/FGA, and 14-14 FT/FTA, in a clinching game six win...with Kareem watching the game from home on his couch.

Magic dominated every guard he faced in his post-season career. West played well in '69, was crushed by Frazier in game seven of the '70 Finals, was murdered by Frazier in the entire '72 Finals, and was outplayed by Frazier in the '73 Finals.

Give Wilt Magic and Worthy, both of whom ELEVATED their games in their combined 16 post-seasons with Kareem, and he would have won far more rings than what he got with West and Baylor in their six with Wilt.

Of course it's not Wilt's fault he can't lead a team. :rolleyes:

[senelcoolidge]

Both were amazing players. But Wilt being a superior rebounder, scorer, passer, and defender I would have to go with him. Young and prime Kareem was amazing as well. Young Wilt was more mobile than Kareem (Kareem was very mobile as well as a youngser). Wilt had more versatility as well.

[T_L_P]

Both were amazing players. But Wilt being a superior rebounder, scorer, passer, and defender I would have to go with him. Young and prime Kareem was amazing as well. Young Wilt was more mobile than Kareem (Kareem was very mobile as well as a youngser). Wilt had more versatility as well.

Wilt from ages 23-31 (his prime, at least from a scoring standpoint): 29.3 PPG on .522 TS% in the fastest era of all time playing 48 MPG.

Kareem from ages 22-32: 30.4 PPG on .570 TS% playing 44 MPG.

:confusedshrug:

Anyway, Kareem for me.

[BIZARRO]

Wilt from ages 23-31 (his prime, at least from a scoring standpoint): 29.3 PPG on .522 TS% in the fastest era of all time playing 48 MPG.

Kareem from ages 22-32: 30.4 PPG on .570 TS% playing 44 MPG.

:confusedshrug:

Anyway, Kareem for me.

There are more things than just scoring.

That said, Wilt was scoring, and could have scored so much more but he altered his game the last couple years of your timeline.

Also, Wilt's rebounding numbers dwarf Kareems during this period as he was averaging almost 25 a game. A much more dominant presence on the boards. I mean in the period you are talking about there is almost a 10 rebound per game difference. 6 per 36. That is huge.

Wilt all day long.

[T_L_P]

There are more things than just scoring.

That said, Wilt was scoring, and could have scored so much more but he altered his game the last couple years of your timeline.

Also, Wilt's rebounding numbers dwarf Kareems during this period as he was averaging almost 25 a game. A much more physical player. I mean in the period you are talking about there is almost a 10 rebound per game difference. 6 per 36. That is huge.

Wilt all day long.

Of course there is. I was just addressing the point that Wilt was the better scorer. I don't think he is. I took his scoring prime and it is still less than Kareem's; I ignored his "I'm not going to score" years. :confusedshrug:

[Psileas]

There are more things than just scoring.

That said, Wilt was scoring, and could have scored so much more but he altered his game the last couple years of your timeline.

Also, Wilt's rebounding numbers dwarf Kareems during this period as he was averaging almost 25 a game. A much more dominant presence on the boards. I mean in the period you are talking about there is almost a 10 rebound per game difference. 6 per 36. That is huge.

Wilt all day long.

Thank you, I love how people who easily pick Kareem due to his 80's team accomplishments give Kareem's individual weaknesses (and in general, fields when he was worse than Wilt) a pass. Kareem only had a single season when he rebounded at "typical Wilt" rates and a few more when he rebounded at "Wilt at his worst" rates. And he likely was a comparable shot-blocker for a limited number of seasons, as well, including only a couple since blocked shots started getting measured. Mind you, these are adjusted numbers, not raw ones, which would give Wilt an even clearer advantage. A part of Kareem's famous longevity could be explained by this fact, that he concentrated on the thing he did better (scoring and offense in general), leaving a big part of fighting for boards and, in general, interior defense for the rest of the team to cover. Wilt concentrating on defense and rebounding, like he did in 1972 and 1973 would also give him a huge longevity and the fact that he was a leader in these fields even in his last season shows that there was still plenty fuel in his tank.
Having played with prime and healthy Magic and the rest of the Showtime doesn't hurt, either (no similarities with playing with an older and often ailing West and Baylor), as well as the fact that he started getting big breaks in the regular season since as early as 1977, dropping from 41.2 to 36.8 mpg in a single season.

[fpliii]

Thank you, I love how people who easily pick Kareem due to his 80's team accomplishments give Kareem's individual weaknesses (and in general, fields when he was worse than Wilt) a pass.
Agree. What bothers me more is, even though he was great, and still playing at an All-NBA level for some of the Lakers Dynasty, he wasn't in his prime except for one, maybe two years.

Grouping in his 80s achievements with his 70s level of play does Kareem a great disservice IMO. He was an absolute MONSTER from his rookie year through his final MVP season.

[-23-]

One of these guys has 6 rings, the other has 2. Also it's unfair to compare a rotting corpse, to a living human.

[stanlove1111]

Tough call.them about even in all time rankings..

I want Jabbar on the offensive end and I want Wilt on the boards and defense. I have them both somewhere between 3-6 on all time list with Bird and Magic..Doesn't matter which way they are listed..Very close between those 4

[swagga]

There are more things than just scoring.

That said, Wilt was scoring, and could have scored so much more but he altered his game the last couple years of your timeline.

Also, Wilt's rebounding numbers dwarf Kareems during this period as he was averaging almost 25 a game. A much more dominant presence on the boards. I mean in the period you are talking about there is almost a 10 rebound per game difference. 6 per 36. That is huge.

Wilt all day long.

and then he'd never have gotten those 2 rings ..

[swagga]

as a regular season game their impact is comparable. Wilt is a much better rebounder due to strength while KAJ will give a bucket when you need one. Defensively i'd give wilt a small nod. I'd give it to wilt.

in the postseason, KAJ is superior: much better and professional teammate (those are important as it takes a team to win in the PO, you need to practice with them to be on the same wavelength, etc... wilt undersood this much too late), more consistent offense player (skyhook, good ft shooter), better from a mental standpoint(less chokes). Wilt's physical advantage is no match for this and we can see it in the rings department. Add longevity and it's a wrap.

[DatAsh]

Tough call, but I think I'll go with Kareem.

Had you asked me this same question last year, Wilt would have been the easy pick.

I've been reading a lot about Kareem and watching old footage as of late, and the more I do, the more highly I think of him.

My logic used to be that it was difficult for me to point to any one thing that Kareem did better than Wilt.

Wilt was a better passer

Wilt was a significantly better rebounder

I used to say Wilt was the better scorer, but I've since changed my mind on this. The main factors behind my change of mind are Kareem's consistency(career consistency and rs/pos consistency), and his significant edge in efficiency.

Neither player was super consistent on the defensive end. At their peaks, both were in that second tier with guys like Olajuwon and Thurmond, though Kareem is probably at the bottom of that tier. Wilt was also always a "good" defender at the very least; the same can't be said for Kareem. Wilt has a not-so-insignificant edge on defense imo.

The biggest thing for me, and why I think I'm in the Kareem camp now, is consistency. Kareem came into the league with a team focused mindset. He knew how to fit into an offensive system, knew his role, and almost always gave you a consistent 20-25 fga/g on 58-60%, and his role was always consistent from the regular season to the playoffs. Consistency is hugely important for building team rhythm going into the playoffs and maintaining that rhythm throughout the playoffs.

Then there's the longevity.

I've got Kareem and Wilt 3rd and 4th. Very close call.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt from ages 23-31 (his prime, at least from a scoring standpoint): 29.3 PPG on .522 TS% in the fastest era of all time playing 48 MPG.

Kareem from ages 22-32: 30.4 PPG on .570 TS% playing 44 MPG.

:confusedshrug:

Anyway, Kareem for me.

Ah...a 23-31 year old Chamberlain averaged 36.0 ppg on a .527 FG%, while a 23-32 year old KAJ was at 28.3 ppg on a .555 FG%.

If you meant playoffs, KAJ played 94 games in that span, and when he faced true defensive stoppers, Chamberlain and Thurmond, he averaged 26.6 ppg on a .456 FG% in his 28 H2H games with them.

In that same time frame for Wilt, in his 80 games, he faced Russell 42 times, and Thurmond six more, or a total of 48 of his 80 playoff games.

Of course the bashers never mention THAT fact.

[ArbitraryWater]

Kareem and I wouldn't have to think much about it..

[CavaliersFTW]

I'll take the extra 9 points, 2 blocked shots and 7 rebounds, league wide fan interest and pure shock and awe factor that Wilt gives you..

[LAZERUSS]

Tough call, but I think I'll go with Kareem.

Had you asked me this same question last year, Wilt would have been the easy pick.

I've been reading a lot about Kareem and watching old footage as of late, and the more I do, the more highly I think of him.

My logic used to be that it was difficult for me to point to any one thing that Kareem did better than Wilt.

Wilt was a better passer

Wilt was a significantly better rebounder

I used to say Wilt was the better scorer, but I've since changed my mind on this. The main factors behind my change of mind are Kareem's consistency(career consistency and rs/pos consistency), and his significant edge in efficiency.

Neither player was super consistent on the defensive end. At their peaks, both were in that second tier with guys like Olajuwon and Thurmond, though Kareem is probably at the bottom of that tier. Wilt was also always a "good" defender at the very least; the same can't be said for Kareem. Wilt has a not-so-insignificant edge on defense imo.

The biggest thing for me, and why I think I'm in the Kareem camp now, is consistency. Kareem came into the league with a team focused mindset. He knew how to fit into an offensive system, knew his role, and almost always gave you a consistent 20-25 fga/g on 58-60%, and his role was always consistent from the regular season to the playoffs. Consistency is hugely important for building team rhythm going into the playoffs and maintaining that rhythm throughout the playoffs.

Then there's the longevity.

I've got Kareem and Wilt 3rd and 4th. Very close call.

If you factor in that Kareem played half of his career in the defenseless 80's, his career margin of .559 to .540 over Chamberlain was in reality, considerably lower. Same with his edge in playoff FG%... .533 to .522. Again, the reality was, Wilt was shooting his .540 in leagues that shot as low as .395, and post-seasons as low as .402. Furthermore, Wilt faced Russell, Thurmond, and a peak Kareem in 77 of his career 160 post-season games.

And how about a PEAK Kareem in his post-season H2H's with an aging Thurmond, and a 34-36 year old Wilt, playing on a surgically repaired knee? 26.6 ppg. in seasons in which he averaged 32.5 ppg in that same span, and on a .456 FG%, in seasons in which he shot .563 in that same span.

And Wilt was no "second tier" defender, either. I have posted the FG%'s against him by his HOF peers, and he was ROUTINELY reducing their efficiency's by 10%, or more, including high-powered offensive centers like KAJ and Bellamy. In fact, I would argue that Wilt likely reduced th FG%'s of his peers, more than any other center in NBA history. And to be honest, only Thurmond might have a case (not Russell.)

And the difference between Nate and Wilt, was that Chamberlain was the best rim-protector in the league when he played. He was easily the game's greatest shot-blocker (sorry, but in the research that we have, he blows Russell away)...and that was even into his LAST season.

As for offense, of course the bashers (and you are not one of them BTW), always look at Wilt's CAREER scoring, especially in the post-season. They completely ignore his PEAK scoring, INCLUDING the post-season. Wilt had SEVERAL post-seasons of 33+ , and many post-season series of 30+ ppg, with highs of 37 ppg, 37 ppg, 39 ppg and 39 ppg. And a peak scoring Wilt averaged over 30 ppg on 50% shooting against RUSSELL in a span of 30 playoff games...all in leagues that shot about .420 in that same post-season span. The bashers also "forget" th fact that Wilt only played in 52 of his 160 career post-season games, in his "scoring" prime...and 30 of those were against RUSSELL.

Of course, the bashers never bring up the FACT that in his "musr-win" games, only Lebron (31.8 ppg), and MJ (31.3 ppg) averaged more than Wilt's 31.1 ppg. And Wilt did so on a much higher FG% (and in post-season leagues that shot much worse)...all while crushing his peers on the glass, and completely shutting down his opposing centers, most all of whom are in the HOF. Oh, and Wilt also had FOUR 50+ point games in his post-season career, and BTW, the ONLY three post-season games of 50+ in "must-win" games. Or that Wilt had a 45 point "must-win" Finals game (BTW, it was in KAJ's rookie season), which was higher than ANY Finals game in Kareem's post-season career.

And, of course, the bashers completely ignore the RECORD BOOK, and in which I could argue that Wilt holds literally HUNDREDS of RECORDS, especially in the OFFENSIVE categories. And if you include Multiple category records, Chamberlain holds a TON of POST-SEASON records, as well (e.g, most 30-20 post-seasons; most 30-25 post-seasons; most 30-30 post-season series; etc. etc.)

And regarding scoring...we all KNOW that a PRIME Chamberlain could score at will. He averaged 40 ppg in a span of seven straight seasons, (and in that same span, 33 ppg in his post-season play...which BTW, did not include his '63 season, in which he averaged 45 ppg.) But how about this? In his 68-69 season, a Wilt who had no interest in scoring, had TWO games of 60+ points. Kareem came into the league the very next season, and over the course of his 20 year career, his HIGH game was... 55 points. Hell, Chamberlain was on his way to winning a scoring title in KAJ's rookie season, when he shredded his knee (he was averaging a league-leading 32.2 ppg on a .579 FG% when he went down.)

The reality was, Chamberlain did EVERYTHING better than KAJ (except FT shooting...and he STILL OUTSCORED KAJ, per season, by a 432 to 335 margin.) A considerably greater scorer, a more efficient shooter from the field (especially when compared to league average), a MUCH better rebounder, a MUCH better defender (both individually and team), and a better passer. And a PEAK Chamberlain was FAR better at ALL of those categories.

[dankok8]

Kareem and honestly it's not a slam dunk but I don't have to think twice.

There is more to the game than raw talent and statistical production. First of all the extremely high pace, his coaches' strategy, and minutes played (yes I give Wilt a lot of credit for his stamina!) gave Wilt an indescribable edge in putting up numbers. Rebounding in particular cannot be compared because an average team in Wilt's prime was grabbing 70-75 rebounds while an average team in Kareem's prime was grabbing 50-55. It's a world of difference. Wilt's 50 ppg season is INSANE but so is the 40+ shot attempts a game. No other player came within a mile of taking that many shots.

The game of basketball is defined by more than raw stats. Kareem's intangibles were on a much much higher level than Wilt's. Kareem could make his free throws while Wilt was intentionally fouled late in games and rarely received the ball. Kareem was a far superior player in the last few minutes of a close game firstly because of free throw shooting but also because of his skyhook which is the greatest shot every unleashed on the NBA. Wilt relied on the fadeaway which was a lower % shot that took him away from rebounding position. Kareem from day one wanted to win and nothing else. Wilt wanted to chase girls, party, clash with his coaches, etc etc. Kareem was aloof and not a vocal leader as much as he probably should have been but he was a leader. Wilt never really was. Wilt would play play majestically in 1967 involving his teammates very well after years of ball-hogging and then he'd get obsessed with winning an assist title the following season. After winning a title in 1972 he got obsessed with setting a record in FG% and decided not to shoot the ball for games at a time.

Wilt was a greater talent but Kareem was the greater player.

[LAZERUSS]

Kareem and honestly it's not a slam dunk but I don't have to think twice.

There is more to the game than raw talent and statistical production. First of all the extremely high pace, his coaches' strategy, and minutes played (yes I give Wilt a lot of credit for his stamina!) gave Wilt an indescribable edge in putting up numbers. Rebounding in particular cannot be compared because an average team in Wilt's prime was grabbing 70-75 rebounds while an average team in Kareem's prime was grabbing 50-55. It's a world of difference. Wilt's 50 ppg season is INSANE but so is the 40+ shot attempts a game. No other player came within a mile of taking that many shots.

The game of basketball is defined by more than raw stats. Kareem's intangibles were on a much much higher level than Wilt's. Kareem could make his free throws while Wilt was intentionally fouled late in games and rarely received the ball. Kareem was a far superior player in the last few minutes of a close game firstly because of free throw shooting but also because of his skyhook which is the greatest shot every unleashed on the NBA. Wilt relied on the fadeaway which was a lower % shot that took him away from rebounding position. Kareem from day one wanted to win and nothing else. Wilt wanted to chase girls, party, clash with his coaches, etc etc. Kareem was aloof and not a vocal leader as much as he probably should have been but he was a leader. Wilt never really was. Wilt would play play majestically in 1967 involving his teammates very well after years of ball-hogging and then he'd get obsessed with winning an assist title the following season. After winning a title in 1972 he got obsessed with setting a record in FG% and decided not to shoot the ball for games at a time.

Wilt was a greater talent but Kareem was the greater player.

The average team was grabbing about 65 rpg at the height of that category (which included TEAM rebounds, which were not kept after '68.) Even using TS%'s, Chamberlain BLEW AWAY Kareem. And Wilt gets punished in that regard for playing FAR more mpg (which also affected his FG%'s, as well.)

Kareem was NOT more clutch than Wilt, and in fact, flat out CHOKED considerably more often. He had some atrocious post-season series, especially when battling TRUE defensive beasts like Wilt and Thurmond.

And KAJ was certainly NOT the "winner" that Wilt was, either. A PRIME Kareem, in his 10 years, went to TWO Finals, won ONE, lost in the First Round two more times, was swept in a WCF's with HCA, and missed two post-seasons entirely.

Nor was KAJ a "leader", or beloved teammate, either. In fact, he rarely even talked to teammates, and was considered aloof. He couldn't win without a HOF PG, and in fact, was a borderline 50% winner without one.

And it was MAGIC, and then later MAGIC and WORTHY, that got KAJ his five rings in the 80's. Had Wilt had those two teammates for 6-10 seasons, and in their primes, it would merely have been a question if he would have won a ring in every season with them.

[dankok8]

The average team was grabbing about 65 rpg at the height of that category (which included TEAM rebounds, which were not kept after '68.) Even using TS%'s, Chamberlain BLEW AWAY Kareem. And Wilt gets punished in that regard for playing FAR more mpg (which also affected his FG%'s, as well.)

Kareem was NOT more clutch than Wilt, and in fact, flat out CHOKED considerably more often. He had some atrocious post-season series, especially when battling TRUE defensive beasts like Wilt and Thurmond.

And KAJ was certainly NOT the "winner" that Wilt was, either. A PRIME Kareem, in his 10 years, went to TWO Finals, won ONE, lost in the First Round two more times, was swept in a WCF's with HCA, and missed two post-seasons entirely.

Nor was KAJ a "leader", or beloved teammate, either. In fact, he rarely even talked to teammates, and was considered aloof. He couldn't win without a HOF PG, and in fact, was a borderline 50% winner without one.

And it was MAGIC, and then later MAGIC and WORTHY, that got KAJ his five rings in the 80's. Had Wilt had those two teammates for 6-10 seasons, and in their primes, it would merely have been a question if he would have won a ring in every season with them.

You couldn't be any more wrong about rebounding. Let's count only player rebounds by summing the player totals...

In 1962, Wilt's Philadelphia Warriors were grabbing 70.6 rpg and Russell's Boston Celtics were grabbing 72.8 rpg.

In 1967, Wilt's Philadelphia 76ers were grabbing 65.3 rpg and Russell's Boston Celtics were grabbing 66.4 rpg.

It's clear for much of that decade that the rebounding totals were insanely inflated.

In 1970 which was Kareem's rookie season and the most fast paced of his career the average team was grabbing 52.9 rpg.

As far as inflation of numbers we're looking at 20-25% minimum for Wilt compared to Kareem and that of course doesn't include minutes played.

And why don't you for once acknowledge Kareem's shit sandwich in the 70's as far as injuries?

1972: Oscar, Jon McGlocklin, and Wali Jones injured
1974: Lucious Allen injured, missed the playoffs
1977: Kermit Washington missed the playoffs and Lucious Allen injured

Coincidentally these 3 years were Kareem's best shots to win and injuries to his teammates derailed his chances. And in all 3 of those postseasons Kareem's teams lost to the eventual champs with him playing on an extremely high level.

And stop mentioning Oscar as if he was some GOAT. He was a star only in his first season in Milwaukee (when they won an overwhelming title...) and then declined sharply partly due to injury and was never a major factor again.

Magic wasn't a superstar/pantheon level player until 1986-1987. You speak about Kareem and Magic but truth is their primes never even remotely overlapped. You think a 33+ year old Wilt playing for Showtime in place of Kareem for 10 years would win more than 5 titles? That is the proper context. Honestly I think there is no way.

If you're arguing for prime Wilt + prime Magic might as well argue prime Kareem + prime Magic because that never happened either.

[LAZERUSS]

BTW, how many other "GOAT" candidates were asked to change their games as often as Wilt was asked to do so by his coaches?

Chamberlain gets ripped for being "selfish" in his 50 ppg (and coming within two points of winning a ring BTW)...but the reality was, it was his COACH who asked him to do so.

He gets ripped for shooting less later in his career, when it was first Hannum, who asked Wilt to become a facilitator, and then the incompetent Van Breda Kolff, who had Wilt playing a HIGH POST, and then later Sharman asked Wilt to concentrate on rebounding, defending, and starting the break.

If Wilt averaged 30 ppg in a seven game series on a .555 FG% against Russell, with a 40-40 team that took Russell's 62-18 team to within ONE point of winning a title...well, he shot too much. "He couldn't win a title when he was scoring."

If he averaged a 23-25-7 series, and his team lost a close seventh game to the eventual champs...well, he didn't score enough.

And, when he averaged a 21-29-9 post-season, and his team finally won..."well, he needed his teammates to carry him."

[LAZERUSS]

You couldn't be any more wrong about rebounding. Let's count only player rebounds by summing the player totals...

In 1962, Wilt's Philadelphia Warriors were grabbing 70.6 rpg and Russell's Boston Celtics were grabbing 72.8 rpg.

In 1967, Wilt's Philadelphia 76ers were grabbing 65.3 rpg and Russell's Boston Celtics were grabbing 66.4 rpg.

It's clear for much of that decade that the rebounding totals were insanely inflated.

In 1970 which was Kareem's rookie season and the most fast paced of his career the average team was grabbing 52.9 rpg.

As far as inflation of numbers we're looking at 20-25% minimum for Wilt compared to Kareem and that of course doesn't include minutes played.

And why don't you for once acknowledge Kareem's shit sandwich in the 70's as far as injuries?

1972: Oscar, Jon McGlocklin, and Wali Jones injured
1974: Lucious Allen injured, missed the playoffs
1977: Kermit Washington missed the playoffs and Lucious Allen injured

Coincidentally these 3 years were Kareem's best shots to win and injuries to his teammates derailed his chances. And in all 3 of those postseasons Kareem's teams lost to the eventual champs with him playing on an extremely high level.

And stop mentioning Oscar as if he was some GOAT. He was a star only in his first season in Milwaukee (when they won an overwhelming title...) and then declined sharply partly due to injury and was never a major factor again.

Magic wasn't a superstar/pantheon level player until 1986-1987. You speak about Kareem and Magic but truth is their primes never even remotely overlapped. You think a 33+ year old Wilt playing for Showtime in place of Kareem for 10 years would win more than 5 titles? That is the proper context. Honestly I think there is no way.

If you're arguing for prime Wilt + prime Magic might as well argue prime Kareem + prime Magic because that never happened either.

At it's PEAK, the NBA averaged 65 rpg. By the mid-60's it was well below 60.
And again, using TS%'s, Chamberlain had SEASONS of 24-25%, and post-season series of 28%. Hell, in Wilt's last post-season, he averaged 22.5 rpg, in a post-season NBA that averaged 50.6 rpg. He had a 21.7 TRB% (again, his last post-season, and averaging 47 mpg in his 17 games.) KAJ's BEST post-season TRB% was at 21.6 (and he was never again close to that), playing 43 mpg in only 11 games.)

KAJ also had MANY seasons of less than 10 rpg, and was often not only outrebounded by opposing centers, but by teammates, including GUARDS.

As for the Magic-Worthy vs. West-Baylor argument...Magic and Worthy played a combined 16 post-seasons with KAJ, and were generally brilliant in nearly ALL of them. West and Baylor played a combined SIX post-seasons with Wilt, and West was only exceptional in TWO (and of course, he choked in game seven of one of them), while Baylor was just a shell who contributed virtually nothing in one of his two, and very little in the other.

And then, if you go beyond two top teammates, players like Scott or Nixon, and Green and Thompson, as well as Cooper, contributed much more than the rest of Wilt's rosters.

Had Wilt played with the Lakers in the 80's, it would have been a question of say, 7+ titles, perhaps all of them.

[LAZERUSS]

Regarding KAJ's "perceived" edge in longevity, the reality was, we never saw what a 40 year old Wilt would have been capable of.

What we do KNOW is that Chamberlain, in his LAST season, came in 4th in the MVP voting, led his team to a 60-22 record and a trip to the Finals, easily led the league in rebounding (and then annihilated his closest competitor in the WCF's), was voted First Team All-Defense (for the second straight season), averaged 5.4 bpg, which would be more than anyone else in the history of the game not named Eaton (and he only beat that once), dramatically lowered the offense and efficiency's of his opposing centers (including a PRIME Kareem), and set a FG% mark of .727 that likely will never be approached.

And in the post-season, Chamberlain averaged 22.5 rpg, in his 17 post-season games (and playing 47.1 mpg in them), in a post-season NBA that averaged 50.6 rpg. The next best post-season since? KAJ's 17.3 rpg in his 11 post-season games in '77. No one has even come remotely close since.

And, in his very LAST game of his career, and against HOFer Willis Reed, Chamberlain scored 23 points, on 9-16 shooting, and grabbed 21 rebounds.

Furthermore, there are numerous detailed accounts of a post-NBA Chamberlain dominating NBA players in summer league play, including a first-hand account by Larry Brown, in which he witnessed a mid-40's Wilt take over a summer league game in which a prime Magic Johnson was playing in. Hell, Wilt even had LEGITIMATE offers to play in the NBA at age... 50!

[dankok8]

At it's PEAK, the NBA averaged 65 rpg. By the mid-60's it was well below 60.
And again, using TS%'s, Chamberlain had SEASONS of 24-25%, and post-season series of 28%. Hell, in Wilt's last post-season, he averaged 22.5 rpg, in a post-season NBA that averaged 50.6 rpg. He had a 21.7 TRB% (again, his last post-season, and averaging 47 mpg in his 17 games.) KAJ's BEST post-season TRB% was at 21.6 (and he was never again close to that), playing 43 mpg in only 11 games.)

KAJ also had MANY seasons of less than 10 rpg, and was often not only outrebounded by opposing centers, but by teammates, including GUARDS.

As for the Magic-Worthy vs. West-Baylor argument...Magic and Worthy played a combined 16 post-seasons with KAJ, and were generally brilliant in nearly ALL of them. West and Baylor played a combined SIX post-seasons with Wilt, and West was only exceptional in TWO (and of course, he choked in game seven of one of them), while Baylor was just a shell who contributed virtually nothing in one of his two, and very little in the other.

And then, if you go beyond two top teammates, players like Scott or Nixon, and Green and Thompson, as well as Cooper, contributed much more than the rest of Wilt's rosters.

Had Wilt played with the Lakers in the 80's, it would have been a question of say, 7+ titles, perhaps all of them.

Again the "Kareem had Magic" argument is bogus. Kareem was 33 years old in the first postseason he played with Magic and he won 5 titles in the next 10 years. Would Wilt from age 33 to age 42 win more than 5 titles with Showtime? Based on what we know, no way... 1980-1983 Kareem was a much better player than 1970-1973 Wilt. And given Kareem's longevity there is no reason to believe the trend of Kareem > Wilt wouldn't continue into subsequent years.

And we're assuming Wilt had the motivation to continue past 14 seasons or that his body could take the toll. Chamberlain had accumulated so many chronic injuries as well by the time of his retirement.

Prime Wilt would win a ton of titles with Magic. But so would prime Kareem.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Laz bringing out them alts :roll:



Kareem and honestly it's not a slam dunk but I don't have to think twice.

There is more to the game than raw talent and statistical production. First of all the extremely high pace, his coaches' strategy, and minutes played (yes I give Wilt a lot of credit for his stamina!) gave Wilt an indescribable edge in putting up numbers. Rebounding in particular cannot be compared because an average team in Wilt's prime was grabbing 70-75 rebounds while an average team in Kareem's prime was grabbing 50-55. It's a world of difference. Wilt's 50 ppg season is INSANE but so is the 40+ shot attempts a game. No other player came within a mile of taking that many shots.

The game of basketball is defined by more than raw stats. Kareem's intangibles were on a much much higher level than Wilt's. Kareem could make his free throws while Wilt was intentionally fouled late in games and rarely received the ball. Kareem was a far superior player in the last few minutes of a close game firstly because of free throw shooting but also because of his skyhook which is the greatest shot every unleashed on the NBA. Wilt relied on the fadeaway which was a lower % shot that took him away from rebounding position. Kareem from day one wanted to win and nothing else. Wilt wanted to chase girls, party, clash with his coaches, etc etc. Kareem was aloof and not a vocal leader as much as he probably should have been but he was a leader. Wilt never really was. Wilt would play play majestically in 1967 involving his teammates very well after years of ball-hogging and then he'd get obsessed with winning an assist title the following season. After winning a title in 1972 he got obsessed with setting a record in FG% and decided not to shoot the ball for games at a time.

Wilt was a greater talent but Kareem was the greater player.


:applause: Great arguments, not like some people who simply post "bullshit".

[Iceman#44]

i dont get why you guys still talk about boards: Chamberlain and Jabbar played for 4 years in the same league, and Wilt always averaged more rebounds. 1970: Wilt 18.4, KAJ 14.5; 1971: Wilt 18.6, KAJ 16.0; 1972:Wilt 19.2, KAJ 16.6; 1973: Wilt 18.6, KAJ 16.1:applause: :applause:

[JellyBean]

This is a tough one. But I would take Kareem over Wilt. I might be bias, since Kareem is my all-time favorite player. But hear me out. To me, Wilt was great. We all know his physical dominance over other players. He was stronger than others, quicker, and could out jump anyone. There are some clips where Wilt is dribbling the ball like a point guard!

Wilt had all of the tools to be great and be a winner, which he did. But the reason why I would pick Kareem over Wilt is because of the mental part of the game. Wilt really could not be stopped unless he wanted to be stopped. That is where I would pick Kareem over Wilt. That mental edge. Kareem had the height and a great shot. But that mindset to keep pushing on an not letting your teammates down, matter greatly to Kareem.

I am not saying that Wilt did not value his teammates and winning. But when you are the strongest, fastest, tallest person on the court and NOBODY could stop you, unless they threw a double or triple team on you, I question How Bad Do You Want It?

[LAZERUSS]

This is a tough one. But I would take Kareem over Wilt. I might be bias, since Kareem is my all-time favorite player. But hear me out. To me, Wilt was great. We all know his physical dominance over other players. He was stronger than others, quicker, and could out jump anyone. There are some clips where Wilt is dribbling the ball like a point guard!

Wilt had all of the tools to be great and be a winner, which he did. But the reason why I would pick Kareem over Wilt is because of the mental part of the game. Wilt really could not be stopped unless he wanted to be stopped. That is where I would pick Kareem over Wilt. That mental edge. Kareem had the height and a great shot. But that mindset to keep pushing on an not letting your teammates down, matter greatly to Kareem.

I am not saying that Wilt did not value his teammates and winning. But when you are the strongest, fastest, tallest person on the court and NOBODY could stop you, unless they threw a double or triple team on you, I question How Bad Do You Want It?

The NBA was the only entity that could stop Wilt. They ROUTINELY enacted "anti-Wilt" Rules. And aside from outlawing the dunking of FTs (which was aimed STRICTLY at Chamberlain), none of the "anti-Wilt" rules really had much affect.

Still, how about this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew

In Wilt's era that would have been a blatant offensive charge (among other things...like throwing an elbow.) There was simply NO WAY the NBA would have allowed Chamberlain to play like that.

[swagga]

The NBA was the only entity that could stop Wilt. They ROUTINELY enacted "anti-Wilt" Rules. And aside from outlawing the dunking of FTs (which was aimed STRICTLY at Chamberlain), none of the "anti-Wilt" rules really had much affect.

Still, how about this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew

In Wilt's era that would have been a blatant offensive charge (among other things...like throwing an elbow.) There was simply NO WAY the NBA would have allowed Chamberlain to play like that.

too bad wilt didn't have a true post up game... oops :lol

[LAZERUSS]

too bad wilt didn't have a true post up game... oops :lol

Yep...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCWrGWuU2Ak

weak.

[dankok8]

I just want to comment on rebounding...

Wilt was the better rebounder in his prime but the gap is really overblown. It's pretty close. Wilt did average more RPG a game but let's compare the years they were in the league together against the best...

In their 28 H2H's the tally was an even 14-14.

Against Nate Thurmond in those years Wilt was 5-12-2 and 12-5 in the playoffs.

Against Nate Thurmond in those years Kareem was 11-5-1 and 12-4 in the playoffs.

Against Dave Cowens in those years Wilt was 7-7.

Against Dave Cowens in those years Kareem was 12-1-1.

Against Elvin Hayes in those years Wilt was 5-8-2.

Against Elvin Hayes in those years Kareem was 13-7.

Against Wes Unseld in those years Wilt was 8-5.

Against Wes Unseld in those years Kareem was 9-7 and 2-2 in the playoffs.


Kareem actually had a solid edge over Wilt as far as performances against other great rebounders go.

[LAZERUSS]

I just want to comment on rebounding...

Wilt was the better rebounder but the gap is really overblown. Wilt did average more RPG a game but let's compare the years they were in the league together against the best...

In their 28 H2H's the tally was an even 14-14.

Against Nate Thurmond in those years Wilt was 5-12-2 and 12-5 in the playoffs.

Against Nate Thurmond in those years Kareem was 11-5-1 and 12-4 in the playoffs.

Against Dave Cowens in those years Wilt was 7-7.

Against Dave Cowens in those years Kareem was 12-1-1.

Against Wes Unseld in those years Wilt was 8-5.

Against Wes Unseld in those years Kareem was 9-7 and 2-2 in the playoffs.


Kareem actually had a solid edge over Wilt as far as performances against other great rebounders go.

How old were Kareem and Wilt in that same time frame again?

And how well was a 34-36 year old Kareem rebounding at?

[millwad]

And why don't you for once acknowledge Kareem's shit sandwich in the 70's as far as injuries?

1972: Oscar, Jon McGlocklin, and Wali Jones injured
1974: Lucious Allen injured, missed the playoffs
1977: Kermit Washington missed the playoffs and Lucious Allen injured

Coincidentally these 3 years were Kareem's best shots to win and injuries to his teammates derailed his chances. And in all 3 of those postseasons Kareem's teams lost to the eventual champs with him playing on an extremely high level.

And stop mentioning Oscar as if he was some GOAT. He was a star only in his first season in Milwaukee (when they won an overwhelming title...) and then declined sharply partly due to injury and was never a major factor again.

Magic wasn't a superstar/pantheon level player until 1986-1987. You speak about Kareem and Magic but truth is their primes never even remotely overlapped. You think a 33+ year old Wilt playing for Showtime in place of Kareem for 10 years would win more than 5 titles? That is the proper context. Honestly I think there is no way.

If you're arguing for prime Wilt + prime Magic might as well argue prime Kareem + prime Magic because that never happened either.

Lazeruss, I've called you out for this as well. You are so quick to mention how unlucky Wilt was and how his team's were so bad and busted up. Why don't you ever give a mention about how busted up Kareem's teammates in the early 70's were?

[LAZERUSS]

Lazeruss, I've called you out for this as well. You are so quick to mention how unlucky Wilt was and how his team's were so bad and busted up. Why don't you ever give a mention about how busted up Kareem's teammates in the early 70's were?

Whe don't YOU EVER acknowledge that Wilt played with piss poor rosters, that played even worse in their post-seasons, and were OFTEN injured (his '68 Sixers had SEVEN injured players, including Wilt)...

or that FACT that Wilt's TEAMs were losing to the eventual champions, TEN times in his 13 post-seasons (and TWO rings BTW)...and losing to SEVEN times to the most stacked Dynasty in the history of the NBA, and then TWICE to a two Knick teams that featured FOUR and SIX HOFers, and to a 66-16 Bucks team that was arguably a top-4 team all-time (and he did so, without BOTH West and Baylor...and in a series in which he outplayed a PEAK Kareem)?

How come?

Kareem's teams were not winning titles in seasons in which 44-38, 48-34, 49-33, and 50-32 were winning them. Hell, teams with losing records were making the Finals in that decade.

Not quite the same, is it?

[swagga]

Yep...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCWrGWuU2Ak

weak.

sorry, my bad, I meant a BIG MAN post game, not these low percentage fade aways/ finger rolls which represent 95% of the videos content. I see no power moves, no drop steps, no hooks, no use of the left hand, no posters, no ball-handling, no heavy contact etc. Not to mention more advanced moves and counter-moves. And that fingerroll would get blocked like nuts today... I won't even discuss that.

Dude din't have a real bigman postgame, the one that really requires strength.
Why would you need superhuman strength to shoot a fadeaway anyway?
Would you like me to post a video of shaq to showcase some premier bigman postgame?

[Iceman#44]

PLAYOFF STATS: Rebounds x game. 1970: Wilt 22.2, KAJ 16.8; 1971: Wilt 20.2, KAJ 17.0; 1972: Wilt 21.0, KAJ 18.2; 1973: Wilt 22.5, KAJ 16.2. What about this? We are talking about playoff. ..Wilt is way better than Jabbar on this

[Pointguard]

Again the "Kareem had Magic" argument is bogus. Kareem was 33 years old in the first postseason he played with Magic and he won 5 titles in the next 10 years. Would Wilt from age 33 to age 42 win more than 5 titles with Showtime? Based on what we know, no way... 1980-1983 Kareem was a much better player than 1970-1973 Wilt. And given Kareem's longevity there is no reason to believe the trend of Kareem > Wilt wouldn't continue into subsequent years.

And we're assuming Wilt had the motivation to continue past 14 seasons or that his body could take the toll. Chamberlain had accumulated so many chronic injuries as well by the time of his retirement.

Prime Wilt would win a ton of titles with Magic. But so would prime Kareem.
Playing with Magic does mean a lot. Kareem definitely had two different careers. Great trouble winning a ring in maybe the worst decade in the history of the leage, and his Magic years - winning in the decade with the most dynasties and great teams.

And like I said here many times before, the league had become De-Centralized when Kareem was the biggest talent in the league. Winning wise, what Rick Barry did with only three years of his prime in the NBA was more impressive than Kareem's ten years. Gus Williams wasn't even in his prime, his prime was in the '80's, and he had more of a dynastic affect than Kareem did. Frazier, Wilt, Unseld and Cowens lead their teams in great fashion during that decade. But no other player had their best ten years in that decade. The guys that denied Kareem rings (Cowens, Gus, Rick) were no longer a problem once Magic came along.

The 70's did not have dynasties, or far more experienced teams, or stockpiled teams, or even teams that you thought for sure going to pull it off. It was the decade of opportunity, especially after '74. When Walton and Malone started putting in work, you thought the center position might make a comeback but it didn't. And there was no way Bird and Magic would have not totally dominated the '70's. They were great team players. So yeah, Magic, who was a great winner does mean a lot when coupled with any other player.

[dankok8]

Playing with Magic does mean a lot. Kareem definitely had two different careers. Great trouble winning a ring in maybe the worst decade in the history of the leage, and his Magic years - winning in the decade with the most dynasties and great teams.

And like I said here many times before, the league had become De-Centralized when Kareem was the biggest talent in the league. Winning wise, what Rick Barry did with only three years of his prime in the NBA was more impressive than Kareem's ten years. Gus Williams wasn't even in his prime, his prime was in the '80's, and he had more of a dynastic affect than Kareem did. Frazier, Wilt, Unseld and Cowens lead their teams in great fashion during that decade. But no other player had their best ten years in that decade. The guys that denied Kareem rings (Cowens, Gus, Rick) were no longer a problem once Magic came along.

The 70's did not have dynasties, or far more experienced teams, or stockpiled teams, or even teams that you thought for sure going to pull it off. It was the decade of opportunity, especially after '74. When Walton and Malone started putting in work, you thought the center position might make a comeback but it didn't. And there was no way Bird and Magic would have not totally dominated the '70's. They were great team players. So yeah, Magic, who was a great winner does mean a lot when coupled with any other player.

Calling the 70's a weak decade is a joke. Make a list of greatest teams ever and you'll see a lot of entries like the 1970 and 1973 Knicks, the 1971 Bucks, the 1972 Lakers, the 1973 and 1974 Celtics, the 1977 Blazers...

Secondly Kareem did totally dominate the 70's. He was the best player in the world throughout and won 5 MVP's in 10 seasons despite heavy voter fatigue (say in 1973 when he lost to Cowens).

His team results didn't follow because of injuries and lack of talent. You can only point to 1973 and blame him for it. In other years it's hard to find fault in what he did.

If you knew more about the era you'd realize that Barry's Warriors winning the Finals in 1975 over the Bullets is probably the greatest upset of all time. Washington won 60 games, had by far the best SRS in the league, and sported 3 stars Elvin Hayes, Wes Unseld, and SG Phil Chenier. Warriors won 48 games and featured Barry and a bunch of role players. Just because upsets happen doesn't make the era weak. Bullets had to beat another 60 win team in the Celtics (between their title years!) to make the finals. Warriors had to beat a rather formidable Bulls team featuring Norm Van Lier, Jerry Sloan, Bob Love, Chet Walker, and Nate Thurmond.

Kareem that year missed 17 games in which his team went 3-14. Mind you with him in the lineup they went 35-30 which is a 44-win pace. Oscar was gone and starting SG Lucious Allen missed 70 games that season as well so their backcourt was nonexistent. Considering how badly Kareem dominated the post-Thurmond Warriors and Chicago Bulls it's very conceivable that had Bucks made the playoffs that year that Kareem could have won a title.

Again I called LAZ out when he said "Kareem had Magic". Kareem was 33 years old the first postseason he played with Magic. At this age most players are in severe decline and near retirement. Magic as a rookie was nowhere near the best player in the game either and in his first 3 years in the league his MVP results were DNQ, 11th, and 8th respectively. Let's put that in proper context.

How many titles would 33-42 year old Wilt win on the Showtime Lakers? More than 5? NO WAY IN HELL!!

[Pointguard]

Calling the 70's a weak decade is a joke. Make a list of greatest teams ever and you'll see a lot of entries like the 1970 and 1973 Knicks, the 1971 Bucks, the 1972 Lakers, the 1973 and 1974 Celtics, the 1977 Blazers...

Secondly Kareem did totally dominate the 70's. He was the best player in the world throughout and won 5 MVP's in 10 seasons despite heavy voter fatigue (say in 1973 when he lost to Cowens).

His team results didn't follow because of injuries and lack of talent. You can only point to 1973 and blame him for it. In other years it's hard to find fault in what he did.
I said after 1974 primarily as the weakest 5 years I can think of. Early '70's year those were dynasties but older ones with injuries kicking them. I don't think any player in the whole decade said at the beginning of the year - we have to find a way to beat Kareem. That wasn't one of their worries. Every year in the 80's they knew Magic and Bird were contending. This is true with Magic without Kareem as well.


If you knew more about the era you'd realize that Barry's Warriors winning the Finals in 1975 over the Bullets is probably the greatest upset of all time. Washington won 60 games, had by far the best SRS in the league, and sported 3 stars Elvin Hayes, Wes Unseld, and SG Phil Chenier. Warriors won 48 games and featured Barry and a bunch of role players. Just because upsets happen doesn't make the era weak. Bullets had to beat another 60 win team in the Celtics (between their title years!) to make the finals. Warriors had to beat a rather formidable Bulls team featuring Norm Van Lier, Jerry Sloan, Bob Love, Chet Walker, and Nate Thurmond.
Most of Kareem's teams were better than Barry's. That's my only point.


Again I called LAZ out when he said "Kareem had Magic". Kareem was 33 years old the first postseason he played with Magic. At this age most players are in severe decline and near retirement. Magic as a rookie was nowhere near the best player in the game either and in his first 3 years in the league his MVP results were DNQ, 11th, and 8th respectively. Let's put that in proper context.
Magic inspired that Laker team and put them all on the same page. Was from day one, one of the best team players the game ever had. Much like Gus Williams when he went over to Seattle they were the team to beat. Gus gets no play right now, but he was a mini Magic before Magic. Kareem woke up and now had a thirst to win. He was very different than he was the previous two years. Magic's tentacles were far and long reaching. If Magic went to Seattle they win it all the first three or four years and Kareem might have been stuck at 1 ring.


How many titles would 33-42 year old Wilt win on the Showtime Lakers? More than 5? NO WAY IN HELL!!
By the 80's, when diet and private jets and stretching, and back to back game management and massuese appear? no telling how long Wilt's career extends. He was a marvel while eating Franks at half time and doing his own weight training. He would have rebounded and blocked a lot better, at the very least.

[La Frescobaldi]

BTW, how many other "GOAT" candidates were asked to change their games as often as Wilt was asked to do so by his coaches?


Of the three greatest that I have seen, Chamberlain, Jabbar, & Jordan, the answer is "two."

Jordan was asked to play point guard for a considerable amount of time, and he was asked over and over to play more of a passing game.

In both cases, their coaches were correct.

[oarabbus]

Of the three greatest that I have seen, Chamberlain, Jabbar, & Jordan, the answer is "two."

Jordan was asked to play point guard for a considerable amount of time, and he was asked over and over to play more of a passing game.

In both cases, their coaches were correct.


I'd argue that Tim Duncan (while perhaps not Tier 1 GOAT) has been asked/made to change his playstyle by Popovich over the years, and acquiesced.

[La Frescobaldi]

Calling the 70's a weak decade is a joke. Make a list of greatest teams ever and you'll see a lot of entries like the 1970 and 1973 Knicks, the 1971 Bucks, the 1972 Lakers, the 1973 and 1974 Celtics, the 1977 Blazers...

Secondly Kareem did totally dominate the 70's. He was the best player in the world throughout and won 5 MVP's in 10 seasons despite heavy voter fatigue (say in 1973 when he lost to Cowens).
Cowens was correctly MVP that year... even though he wasn't the best player on his own team.



His team results didn't follow because of injuries and lack of talent. You can only point to 1973 and blame him for it. In other years it's hard to find fault in what he did.

It's an absurdity to protect Jabbar for this and snidely ignore the fact that injuries and lack of talent hurt Chamberlain's teams FAR MORE than they ever did Jabbar's. This is intellectual dishonesty.



If you knew more about the era you'd realize that Barry's Warriors winning the Finals in 1975 over the Bullets is probably the greatest upset of all time. Washington won 60 games, had by far the best SRS in the league, and sported 3 stars Elvin Hayes, Wes Unseld, and SG Phil Chenier. Warriors won 48 games and featured Barry and a bunch of role players. Just because upsets happen doesn't make the era weak. Bullets had to beat another 60 win team in the Celtics (between their title years!) to make the finals. Warriors had to beat a rather formidable Bulls team featuring Norm Van Lier, Jerry Sloan, Bob Love, Chet Walker, and Nate Thurmond.
We agree that the '70s were not a weak era.


Kareem that year missed 17 games in which his team went 3-14. Mind you with him in the lineup they went 35-30 which is a 44-win pace. Oscar was gone and starting SG Lucious Allen missed 70 games that season as well so their backcourt was nonexistent. Considering how badly Kareem dominated the post-Thurmond Warriors and Chicago Bulls it's very conceivable that had Bucks made the playoffs that year that Kareem could have won a title.
This is strong evidence that his coach was doing a poor job. No player should ever have to carry a team like that and as far as I know, no team has ever finished a season with a championship when a player was carrying them like that. Maybe DJ.



Again I called LAZ out when he said "Kareem had Magic". Kareem was 33 years old the first postseason he played with Magic. At this age most players are in severe decline and near retirement. Magic as a rookie was nowhere near the best player in the game either and in his first 3 years in the league his MVP results were DNQ, 11th, and 8th respectively. Let's put that in proper context.
If you think the '80s Lakers were winning anything without Magic Johnson you're a nutcake. And name ANY Chamberlain teammate other than Jerry West that EVER played at Magic Johnson's level. Hal Greer? Wali Jones??? Guy Rogers????????? Without Magic Johnson there was no Showtime Lakers and Jabbar would have won a single championship in his career.

And great as he was, West was injured constantly throughout his career, missed the entire '71 playoffs, had some very dismal playoff games, and spent a lot of time limping. If you think Elgin Baylor was still elite when Chamberlain was on the Lakers you're sadly mistaken.

[La Frescobaldi]

I'd argue that Tim Duncan (while perhaps not Tier 1 GOAT) has been asked/made to change his playstyle by Popovich over the years, and acquiesced.

Yeah. But to me, Duncan's in the second tier - i.e., still human - with Magic, Bird, Havlicek, Bryant, Isiah and those guys.

[dankok8]

Cowens was correctly MVP that year... even though he wasn't the best player on his own team.

It's an absurdity to protect Jabbar for this and snidely ignore the fact that injuries and lack of talent hurt Chamberlain's teams FAR MORE than they ever did Jabbar's. This is intellectual dishonesty.

We agree that the '70s were not a weak era.

This is strong evidence that his coach was doing a poor job. No player should ever have to carry a team like that and as far as I know, no team has ever finished a season with a championship when a player was carrying them like that. Maybe DJ.

If you think the '80s Lakers were winning anything without Magic Johnson you're a nutcake. And name ANY Chamberlain teammate other than Jerry West that EVER played at Magic Johnson's level. Hal Greer? Wali Jones??? Guy Rogers????????? Without Magic Johnson there was no Showtime Lakers and Jabbar would have won a single championship in his career.

And great as he was, West was injured constantly throughout his career, missed the entire '71 playoffs, had some very dismal playoff games, and spent a lot of time limping. If you think Elgin Baylor was still elite when Chamberlain was on the Lakers you're sadly mistaken.

I always defended Cowens' MVP too but Kareem that year was the best player in the league by far on a 60 win team. That's all I'm trying to say.

Wilt had issues with his teams too. So did Kareem. Wilt fans make excuses but they are quick to blast Kareem even though we know he elevated his teams more and had better intangibles.

I never said LA would do squat without Magic. I was just saying that 33+ year old Kareem played with Magic. That's a part Wilt fans conveniently ignore when they say "Kareem had Magic".

I must say I disagree about Baylor. He was a top 15 arguably even top 10 in the league in 1969 and 1970. 26/10/4 is nothing to sneeze at. Billy C almost won an MVP with that statline. Elgin was far removed from his peak but still a force to be reckoned with. West was top 3 in 1969 and 1970 and still firmly top 7 in 1972.

[MavsSuperFan]

The guy with 6 rings

[La Frescobaldi]

I always defended Cowens' MVP too but Kareem that year was the best player in the league by far on a 60 win team. That's all I'm trying to say.

Wilt had issues with his teams too. So did Kareem. Wilt fans make excuses but they are quick to blast Kareem even though we know he elevated his teams more and had better intangibles.

I never said LA would do squat without Magic. I was just saying that 33+ year old Kareem played with Magic. That's a part Wilt fans conveniently ignore when they say "Kareem had Magic".

I must say I disagree about Baylor. He was a top 15 arguably even top 10 in the league in 1969 and 1970. 26/10/4 is nothing to sneeze at. Billy C almost won an MVP with that statline. Elgin was far removed from his peak but still a force to be reckoned with. West was top 3 in 1969 and 1970 and still firmly top 7 in 1972.

Clearly you never watched Baylor in playoffs. He got worse and worse until he was standing in the corner completely ignored by both teams. And every time that dolt van breda kopf started braying "pass it to Baylor he's wide open!!" the whole stadium had to cover their ears because of the jackhammer decibels of bricks clanking against the side of the rim. Havlicek used Baylor's jersey to wipe his sneakers with every game.

And I've never blasted Jabbar in fact he's one of my Circle of Three. The fact remains, he'd have 1 ring - and thank you, Oscar Robertson - if he hadn't played with Magic Johnson.... a better guard than Chamberlain ever had, when you consider Logo was mostly past his best days by '70.

We are talking about centers, not guards. They don't have high usage numbers, don't bring the ball down, don't run offenses. They dominate and destroy.

No sir, you're engaging in straw man logic and you're better than that.

[LAZERUSS]

BTW, I would rank KAJ's stretch from '70-'72, as only behind Chamberlain's '66-'68 run, in the history of the game. He was at his most explosive and dominant, and few here probably know that he anchored the best defense in the NBA for four straight seasons ('71 thru '74.)

[dankok8]

BTW, I would rank KAJ's stretch from '70-'72, as only behind Chamberlain's '66-'68 run, in the history of the game. He was at his most explosive and dominant, and few here probably know that he anchored the best defense in the NBA for four straight seasons ('71 thru '74.)

That's a defensible argument and certainly a respectable opinion. What puzzles me is how you can only have Kareem at #5 all time. With a #2 peak, 6 MVP's, 6 titles, and GOAT longevity...

[LAZERUSS]

That's a defensible argument and certainly a respectable opinion. What puzzles me is how you can only have Kareem at #5 all time. With a #2 peak, 6 MVP's, 6 titles, and GOAT longevity...

I currntly have KAJ at #4, and just ahead of Russell at #5. A peak Kareem was a better player than a peak Magic, but over the course of entire careers, I would rank Magic slightly ahead of him (and clearly ahead of him when the two played together for 10 years.)

[fpliii]

I currntly have KAJ at #4, and just ahead of Russell at #5. A peak Kareem was a better player than a peak Magic, but over the course of entire careers, I would rank Magic slightly ahead of him (and clearly ahead of him when the two played together for 10 years.)
LAZ - Is Magic locked in to the top 3? Or could you conceivably drop him below KAJ and Russell down the line?

[LAZERUSS]

LAZ - Is Magic locked in to the top 3? Or could you conceivably drop him below KAJ and Russell down the line?

My "list" is always changing. My problem (currently) with Russell, is that the more I look at his career, the more I realize that his teammates were brilliant. Even Russell acknowledged that Sam Jones hit the most crucial shots in SIX of his post-season title runs. And Havlicek was probably Boston's best player in Russell's last two seasons (and would go on to win TWO more rings...as well as having seasons of 28 and 29 ppg AFTER Russell.)

Furthermore, the "bashers" just look at Russell's 7-1 edge in pplayoff series H2H's, and then claim that he "dominated" Wilt. BUT, you and I both know that Chamberlain came within an eyelash of beating Russell's dynasty in FOUR of those seven losses (and wiped them out in another.) And, Wilt either outplayed, or downright destroyed Russell in all of them.

And, of course, Russell didn't HAVE to do nearly as much as Chamberlain, either. Wilt was playing "Russell-level" defense in the majority of those series, and then usually crushing him in scoring, rebounding, and efficiency, as well.

And that is why I moved KAJ up. A prime Kareem, in his first ten seasons in the league, had a similar career as to what a prime Chamberlain had...except, not as much team success, nor nearly as dominant individually. It wasn't until MAGIC arrived (and later Worthy), that he started winning rings. And the reality was, the Lakers won his last ring, DESPITE him, and they also likely would have won a ring in '87 without him, as well.

That is not really a knock on Kareem. Like Chamberlain, who was the best player in the NBA the entire decade of the 60's, Kareem was the best player in the league in the entire decade of the 70's. And like Wilt, you simply couldn't blame him for not winning more rings, with the poor rosters, or injuries his teammates suffered, etc.

But again, though, Chamberlain won two rings in his 13 post-seasons, and lost to the eventual champion in 10 out of the other 11. And seven of them were to the greatest dynasty in the history of the game; two more to HOF-laden Knick teams; and another to the 66-16 '71 Bucks, who were arguably one of the top-4 teams of all-time. AND, he also beat Russell's eight-time defending, and 60-21 Celtics; the 63-19 Bucks (the very next year after their 66-16 season), and the HOF-laden Knicks in '68 and '72.

Kareem was not winning titles in seasons in which 44-38, 48-34, 49-33, and 50-32 teams were winning them. Hell, his team didn't make the playoffs in a season in which a 40-42 team made it to the Finals. And even KAJ's one ring in '71 was "cheapened" by the fact that his team beat a 41-41 Warrior team in the first round; Wilt's 48-34 Lakers in the second round (and Wilt had to go it without both West and Baylor...and still outplayed Kareem); and then they swept the 42-40 Bullets in the Finals.

Right now...

1. Wilt
2. MJ
3. Magic
4. Kareem
5. Russell

[fpliii]

I'm not sure what to do about Magic. Obviously I didn't get to watch him live (except for the 96 version) since I started watching Shaq's rookie year, but it's hard for me to slot him above those 4 bigs, and the next few.

I'll need to continue watching tape...

But again, though, Chamberlain won two rings in his 13 post-seasons, and lost to the eventual champion in 10 out of the other 11. And seven of them were to the greatest dynasty in the history of the game; two more to HOF-laden Knick teams; and another to the 66-16 '71 Bucks, who were arguably one of the top-4 teams of all-time. AND, he also beat Russell's eight-time defending, and 60-21 Celtics; the 63-19 Bucks (the very next year after their 66-16 season), and the HOF-laden Knicks in '68 and '72.
Who are the other 3? 67 Sixers, 72 Bulls, 86 Celtics? Or do you have a 90s Bulls/80s Lakers squad there (or maybe 01 Lakers, though the regular season has to hurt them a bit)?

[LAZERUSS]

I'm not sure what to do about Magic. Obviously I didn't get to watch him live (except for the 96 version) since I started watching Shaq's rookie year, but it's hard for me to slot him above those 4 bigs, and the next few.

I'll need to continue watching tape...

Who are the other 3? 67 Sixers, 72 Bulls, 86 Celtics? Or do you have a 90s Bulls/80s Lakers squad there (or maybe 01 Lakers, though the regular season has to hurt them a bit)?

Well, everyone has their own opinions, and I certainly respect your's. There are only a small group here, though, that I do respect. Most seldom do any research, nor do they have any real criteria.

For me, Magic was the ultimate "winner." Even after Kareem retired, he took one team to the best record in the league, and then a rapidly declining, and injury-riddled team to a Finals. And he made all of his teammates considerably better. Just look them up...with Magic, and without.

Shaq is tough. At his peak, from 2000-2002, he was as close to a peak Wilt, and Kareem, as there was. BTW, MJ's 91-93 is also very close. And Shaq was a GREAT player from nearly day one, thru 2005, as well. My problem with him is that. much like a prime Kareem (not a peak Kareem), he SHOULD have been even more dominant. Like Kareem, he should have won more rebounding titles, and been a defensive force longer. And, yes, he should have scored more, as well.


As for great team's, IMHO, the '72 Lakers were the most dominant team of all-time. They annihilated ALL of their opposition, and their ppg differential was the highest ever. After that, the '67 Sixers, the '96 Bulls, and then the '71 Bucks. The '71 Bucks had the largest FG% differential, in both them regular season and post-season. They had nearly the largest ppp differential in the regular season (and had they not coasted in their last five games, they would have had it easily), and the largest ppg differential in playoff history. And they were clearly the best defensive team in the league (in fact, from '71 thru '74.)

After those four, I have the '87 Lakers, the '86 Celtics, the '83 Sixers, the '92 Bulls, the '85 Lakers, and the '97 Bulls. If you include the post-season, the '01 Lakers were probably as good as any of the teams from #5 on. The '70 and '73 Knicks probably deserve to be somewhere in there, as well. And if injuries hadn't decimated them, the '68 Sixers would have probably be a top-10 team, too.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Right now...

1. Wilt
2. MJ
3. Magic
4. Kareem
5. Russell


:roll:

You're a ****in joke, child... Glad few have such bullshit lists like that, or at least I think so...

[DatAsh]

In both cases, their coaches were correct.

Man it's crazy just how good Wilt was under Hannum. Someone on another board made a comparison with him to Duncan which I liked.

Imagine if Tim Duncan were to grab 3 more rebounds, average 7-8 assists, and shoot 10% better from the field, all while playing arguably better defense than he already does; that was Chamberlain under Alex Hannum. Really puts how good he was into context, considering just how good Duncan is. I honestly don't see how anyone else comes all that close.

[jongib369]

Man it's crazy just how good Wilt was under Hannum. Someone on another board made a comparison with him to Duncan which I liked.

Imagine if Tim Duncan were to grab 3 more rebounds, average 7-8 assists, and shoot 10% better from the field, all while playing arguably better defense than he already does; that was Chamberlain under Alex Hannum. Really puts how good he was into context, considering just how good Duncan is. I honestly don't see how anyone else comes all that close.

That's partly why I think he's the GOAT, what he was able and willing to do with the right coach was incredible. Our perception of him could of been very different had he landed someplace else.

If you like the Tim Duncan comparison think of it like this...Imagine Red, Phil, or Greg coaching a player in their prime who under the right team you could get to play like Tim Duncan with the stat improvements you mentioned... But also with the frame of someone slightly longer/bigger than Shaq, and can run a 4.6 40 at 290...Imagine that playing with prime/healthy Oscar, West or even Russell :lol

[dunksby]

1. Wilt
2. MJ
3. Magic
4. Kareem
5. Russell
Thank you for this, you just answered a lot of questions you would never address directly. :cheers: :oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

Right now...

1. Wilt
2. MJ
3. Magic
4. Kareem
5. Russell


WTF?!?!?

A month ago you had MJ at GOAT, then a year ago it was Russell/Magic/Wilt, then before it was Wilt again, etc etc etc...

How the hell do you flip flop so much with retired players?

[DatAsh]

WTF?!?!?

A month ago you had MJ at GOAT, then a year ago it was Russell/Magic/Wilt, then before it was Wilt again, etc etc etc...

How the hell do you flip flop so much with retired players?
You can tell by the way he writes that he has always had basically this list, but he was hesitant to admit it for fear of sounding too biased. I think that's pretty much out of the window now. Personally I see nothing wrong with having Wilt in that top spot; I think most see him as a top 5 player, so it's really not much of a stretch.

[ArbitraryWater]

You can tell by the way he writes that he has always had basically this list, but he was hesitant to admit it for fear of sounding too biased. I think that's pretty much out of the window now. Personally I see nothing wrong with having Wilt in that top spot; I think most see him as a top 5 player, so it's really not much of a stretch.

Yeah but he should just come out and say it..

I remember when he put Russell at 1 it was like wtf :wtf:

Dude is making arguments all day long for Wilt, partially about Wilt shredding Russell, and then he had Russell as GOAT.. He should just stick with it now.. Although I do think to put Wilt over MJ and Kareem is a bit of a reach.

[DatAsh]

Yeah but he should just come out and say it..

I remember when he put Russell at 1 it was like wtf :wtf:

Dude is making arguments all day long for Wilt, partially about Wilt shredding Russell, and then he had Russell as GOAT.. He should just stick with it now.. Although I do think to put Wilt over MJ and Kareem is a bit of a reach.
I used to have Wilt over Kareem until just recently. At his peak, Wilt was definitely the better player.