If Leonard takes the next Step, Are the Spurs Unbeatable?

[westsideozzie]

The Spurs have so many working and interchangeable parts, but if Leonard starts to get 20ppg a game, there is no way anybody is going to beat these cats 4 times in seven tries. When Leonard plays aggressive, not only is he efficient, he can play the four in the pinch or even some shooting guard.

[AboutBuckets]

The Spurs have so many working and interchangeable parts, but if Leonard starts to get 20ppg a game, there is no way anybody is going to beat these cats 4 times in seven tries. When Leonard plays aggressive, not only is he efficient, he can play the four in the pinch or even some shooting guard.

First off I'm a big Spurs/Leonard fan so don't take this as me hating

BUT

The amount of things he would need to do in order to take the step I think you're visualizing is a bit prohibitive. It would mean his handle, pull up/dribble jumper, and entire approach to the game would have to be overhauled. While he's extremely versatile on defense and can (for short intervals) switch onto almost anyone in the league and do an above average job, he's never going to occupy a 2 or 4 role on offense, especially with how Pop's been running them these past few seasons.

[ILLsmak]

First off I'm a big Spurs/Leonard fan so don't take this as me hating

BUT

The amount of things he would need to do in order to take the step I think you're visualizing is a bit prohibitive. It would mean his handle, pull up/dribble jumper, and entire approach to the game would have to be overhauled. While he's extremely versatile on defense and can (for short intervals) switch onto almost anyone in the league and do an above average job, he's never going to occupy a 2 or 4 role on offense, especially with how Pop's been running them these past few seasons.

I dunno if he needs to do all that necessarily. He just needs to keep ballin and be confident, play the right way. Can't see dude being a superstar scorer, but he can definitely get points and assists. I think the whole world is wet for people who you can run an offense through... but really he doesn't need to be that guy, like Bron. He just needs to go harder. Then everyone else needs to play as well as they did or close.

If people hit open shots, the offense runs, and TP/Manu/TD can make some shots doing what they've been doing, the spurs will be really good. I don't see them ever being unbeatable and I hesitate to think they are favorites.

-Smak

[Cocaine80s]

if everyone from last year's team keeps the same level of play then yes.

but this year depends on how duncan and manu will look.

[AboutBuckets]

I dunno if he needs to do all that necessarily. He just needs to keep ballin and be confident, play the right way. Can't see dude being a superstar scorer, but he can definitely get points and assists. I think the whole world is wet for people who you can run an offense through... but really he doesn't need to be that guy, like Bron. He just needs to go harder. Then everyone else needs to play as well as they did or close.

-Smak

Completely agree, when I was saying what it would take I was getting at the fact that the team doesn't really need that out of him. You put it more clearly than I did though

[Harison]

Pop said he will increase Kawhi role and make plays for him. So yes, he will take the next step. It was a team effort in 2014, so regardless if (and what) step Kawhi takes, its crucial for all core players to be healthy and near the level they were in '14 to compete in the Finals again.

[JonatanRey]

His D is just awesome.

Already average 16ppg without plays drawn for him. The comparison with Pippen is there and I can see him averaging around 25ppg multiple seasons. Is that different from a great scorer? Dude just turned 23. C'mon. Sky is the limit.

[r0drig0lac]

yes

[thefatmiral]

I'd like to see him get too rhe rim more. some more cuts , get a nixe jump hook, and improve touch with put backs. 20 is a little too high for next year.

[Thorpesaurous]

I love the Spurs, but they play like a machine, and because of that, I could never say they'll be unbeatable. Because while when they're going well, they certainly are, but with a system like that, the balance is so delicate that it only takes a small fissure for them to topple.


That said, Kwahi's ability to improve his ballhandling, passing, and playmaking would give that machine just that much more flexibility. I do though think he's never going to be a singular type piece for a title team.

[wally_world]

I think we will see him develop some sort of a point-forward's game. I don't think he'll ever be a #1 option type of player, but he can be a #1a/b that contributes to the offense in more ways than scoring. He already has a pretty good handle and pull up jumper on the fastbreak. I can see the ball going to him more and he can create for the offense.

[T_L_P]

His D is just awesome.

Already average 16ppg without plays drawn for him. The comparison with Pippen is there and I can see him averaging around 25ppg multiple seasons. Is that different from a great scorer? Dude just turned 23. C'mon. Sky is the limit.

I'm optimistic about Kawhi, but he'll never come close.

He's played in 250 games and he's scored more than 25 points 3 times (26, 26, 29), each time on 60+ shooting (which tells me he got hot more than it means he got aggressive).

He's max is 20 PPG on a contender. More realistically I never see him scoring more than 18 PPG in a season (assuming he doesn't become a 40 MPG player, which I don't see happening with his knees). :confusedshrug:

One can hope. Maybe when TD and Manu retire and he becomes the second option he'll look to score more.

[Dragic4Life]

Next step? Dude hit his peak when he won FMVP.

[hawksdogsbraves]

His D is just awesome.

Already average 16ppg without plays drawn for him. The comparison with Pippen is there and I can see him averaging around 25ppg multiple seasons. Is that different from a great scorer? Dude just turned 23. C'mon. Sky is the limit.

What on earth are you talking about? He averaged 12ppg last season, not 16ppg.

[scm5]

What on earth are you talking about? He averaged 12ppg last season, not 16ppg.

I think he was looking at Per 36 Stats.

[ralph_i_el]

Leonard isn't really a go-to scorer, that's just not his mentality.

He's a great cog in the Spurs system. He can shoot, but he's not a great shooter. He can handle the ball, but he's not the guy you want making a ton of plays with the ball in his hand. He plays great D, and moves well off the ball. Long arms let him be a really good finisher.

He's a do-it-all SF and an extremely valuable role player, but I don't think he's going to come out and average more than 20 a game on a good team.

I'd love him on my team. I wouldn't want him to be my first option. I look at him as a Shawn Marion or Andrei Kirilenko type player. He can make an All-star level impact with his all-around game.

[rmt]

I think that the Spurs fortunes rest more on Duncan (and to a lesser extent, Manu) not falling off than on Leonard taking the next step. Leonard just needs consistency - doing what he does night after night. Pop's not going to give any one player many minutes so it isn't necessary for him to take the next step. When TD and Manu retire, then he'll have to take the next step for the Spurs to compete.

[JonatanRey]

I think he was looking at Per 36 Stats.

This. On 50%FG. If he gets more minutes, he will surpase 20 ppg. No doubt.

[Smoke117]

Leonard isn't really a go-to scorer, that's just not his mentality.

He's a great cog in the Spurs system. He can shoot, but he's not a great shooter. He can handle the ball, but he's not the guy you want making a ton of plays with the ball in his hand. He plays great D, and moves well off the ball. Long arms let him be a really good finisher.

He's a do-it-all SF and an extremely valuable role player, but I don't think he's going to come out and average more than 20 a game on a good team.

I'd love him on my team. I wouldn't want him to be my first option. I look at him as a Shawn Marion or Andrei Kirilenko type player. He can make an All-star level impact with his all-around game.


Someboy who isn't a retard, finally. Where do you clowns get that he'll ever be a 20ppg scorer from? He's never averaged 20ppg in any given month, any given series. Also, what the **** is this nonsense about him developing into a point forward? The guy averaged 2apg in the regular season and 1.7 in the post season...:rolleyes: Players don't DEVELOP into point forwards going into their 4th season in the NBA. Pippen, Hill, Lebron...they all had those skills coming into the league.

[rmt]

Someboy who isn't a retard, finally. Where do you clowns get that he'll ever be a 20ppg scorer from? He's never averaged 20ppg in any given month, any given series. Also, what the **** is this nonsense about him developing into a point forward? The guy averaged 2apg in the regular season and 1.7 in the post season...:rolleyes: Players don't DEVELOP into point forwards going into their 4th season in the NBA. Pippen, Hill, Lebron...they all had those skills coming into the league.

Pop brought Leonard along very slowly. Remember he came to a very good team with proven stars - it's not like most great players who go to bad teams where they play lots of minutes and the team depends heavily on them for scoring.

Combine that with starting in a lockout year, no training camp, having to fix his broken shot, tendonitis in his knee, broken hand, and a coach who watches everyone's minutes, I don't think he's been given the chance to be a "scorer." In SA's system, everybody takes a back seat - even Parker - 16.7 ppt in 13-14.

And no, he's not a point forward - doesn't have that natural talent - but with the athleticism, drive, hard work and fixed shot, I expect him to eventually become that scorer when Duncan and Manu retire. That together with his elite defense is more than I could ask from a trade for George Hill and more than SA could ever expect drafting so late as they always do.

[SCdac]

Such a wild variety of assessments, not just on Kawhi's future game but even his current game lol.

Some think he's basically offensively inept (he's not... at all), others think he'll be close to a superstar (doubtful... all star more likely).

Bottom line to me is that when Kawhi scores well and plays well in any given match (17+ points) the Spurs at least of last season were virtually unbeatable. When he came back from his hand injury last season, Spurs rattled off a 19 game win streak. No coincidence, given he defensive prowess on the perimeter and Spurs lean on him more every season.

When Kawhi turned it up in the last three games of Finals

[riseagainst]

since he is already a better finals performer than lebron ever was, if he takes the next step he'll be twice the player lebron ever was and it's not even close.

[Hey Yo]

Rich man's Jimmy Butler

[rmt]

For SA, Leonard's offense is not that important. The reason the Spurs have reached the Finals the past 2 years is the defense of BOTH Leonard and Green. They'd never make it past Curry/Thompson last year or KD/Westbrooke this year without them.

[ralph_i_el]

For SA, Leonard's offense is not that important. The reason the Spurs have reached the Finals the past 2 years is the defense of BOTH Leonard and Green. They'd never make it past Curry/Thompson last year or KD/Westbrooke this year without them.
^truth

There is a ton of value in having a guy who isn't a bad matchup on D against any 1,2 or 3 in the NBA.

There's a short list of guys you can trust to guard curry AND Durant

[ILLsmak]

He's a do-it-all SF and an extremely valuable role player, but I don't think he's going to come out and average more than 20 a game on a good team.



He's more of an all-star, I think. Just not a flashy one. Everyone is a role player when you think about it, except maybe like 5 guys in the NBA.

A role player is someone who excels at one thing. You have to compare people by position. He's a great talent at SF. Just like you can say a dude like Faried is a monster... even if he's not gonna get 20.

There are plenty of people in the nba that can get 20. How many of them do you need to win? If dude can get 15-8-3-1.5-1 I think he's beasting. He needs some plays, sure, but you guys are thinking it's gonna be like OK CLEAR IT OUT. Nah, I mean give him a cut. Let him come around and post (cuz he can post a little.)

If he gets to like... 18-8-3+assists-2+steals-1+block... he'd be 'taking the next step.'

People think SFs gotta be LeBron to be more than role players...

-Smak

[ralph_i_el]

He's more of an all-star, I think. Just not a flashy one. Everyone is a role player when you think about it, except maybe like 5 guys in the NBA.

A role player is someone who excels at one thing. You have to compare people by position. He's a great talent at SF. Just like you can say a dude like Faried is a monster... even if he's not gonna get 20.

There are plenty of people in the nba that can get 20. How many of them do you need to win? If dude can get 15-8-3-1.5-1 I think he's beasting. He needs some plays, sure, but you guys are thinking it's gonna be like OK CLEAR IT OUT. Nah, I mean give him a cut. Let him come around and post (cuz he can post a little.)

If he gets to like... 18-8-3+assists-2+steals-1+block... he'd be 'taking the next step.'

People think SFs gotta be LeBron to be more than role players...

-Smak

The way I look at it, unless the offense is built around you, or you're the driving force of the offense, you're a role player. I don't use the term "role player" as an insult.

[SsKSpurs21]

I love the Spurs, but they play like a machine, and because of that, I could never say they'll be unbeatable. Because while when they're going well, they certainly are, but with a system like that, the balance is so delicate that it only takes a small fissure for them to topple.


That said, Kwahi's ability to improve his ballhandling, passing, and playmaking would give that machine just that much more flexibility. I do though think he's never going to be a singular type piece for a title team.

definitely on point. when the shots are falling its a thing of beauty. that balance is crucial because if one guy is having an off night the system can still somewhat function but if two guys are off then the game is over.

for example, danny green is the starter. if he is having an off night they bring in belinelli. but if belinelli is struggling also its very hard for them to compensate for those lost points. we dont have a guy that can take over the game...

now if kawhi can become that guy who says, ok, everyone is struggling, so now give me the ball and ill finish the game (similar to how duncan carried the offense), then we can be really hard to beat. this is the NBA, noone is unbeatable.

[LongLiveTheKing]

Saw Kawhi live at the Spurs open scrimmage and he's seemed to develop more of an offensive game. He had a good amount of mid range fadeaways. And seemed more confident on offense.
Of course he still had great defense he stole one from Manu very well.

[ImKobe]

Honestly, RIGHT NOW as it is, I think Leonard taking on a bigger role could hurt the Spurs' chemistry. Their recent success has been based on team effort and everyone playing their role to perfection, Kawhi doesn't need a much bigger role right now because Tony's still good for 18-20 points on most nights, Manu will get his off the bench, Duncan will have vintage games. The load on the offensive end is shared, that's what makes them so great. You can't game plan to stop a certain player because as soon as you focus on shutting someone down, they will use their ball movement against you and bury a bunch of open 3s. They force defenses to stay honest that way.

I think in the future, they will need him to break out, probably after the upcoming season, when Duncan retires, Spurs will need Kawhi to be the man going forward, I think currently they are molding him into that player and he will progress because I believe in Coach Popovich, who has done a tremendeous job developing talent (from euroscrubs to elite role players and turning Tony Parker into an elite point guard). Kawhi needs to work on his passing game though, I feel like that's the weakest part of his game, though overall it hasn't affected the team and he can make the easy ones.

I don't think Kawhi will ever be the guy to dribble the ball on the perimeter and break down a defense like that, but he should be a Shawn Marion type of a player, who can put up 20/10 with a block and a steal or two a game.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Next step? He's a high performing role player. People around here getting delusions of grandeur about Kwahi. He's a great fit as a system guy under Pops with all the other talent on that team. There is no real star or superstar like ability here.

[ImKobe]

Next step? He's a high performing role player. People around here getting delusions of grandeur about Kwahi. He's a great fit as a system guy under Pops with all the other talent on that team. There is no real star or superstar like ability here.

Yes there is. You didn't watch the Finals bro? Kawhi can put up numbers if the offense is run around him or he gets enough touches.

24/9/2/2/2 on 69/54/84 shooting in the last 3 games

and the way he got those points, he was playing great off-ball, getting wide open from 3, driving to the hoop and making some plays for his teammates, alley-oop slams, Lebron on him and he just drained 20-ft jumpers on him like it's nothing

I wouldn't say he'd be a high-volume scorer (25+ ppg type), but his impact would be that of a star player at least at minimum, there's more to it than scoring. He will give you 18-20 points, he will give you 7-10 rebounds, he will make some plays for his teammates, protect the rim at times and swat some shots away with his long arms, get some steals and disrupt the opposing offenses and get the easy points in transition...

19.4 PER & .193 WS/48, 60%TS, 38% from 3 at 22 years old, in his 3rd NBA season

he has a lot of time to grow, so I wouldn't say his ceiling would be what it is right now. Shawn Marion would be a fair comparison imho, but with a better shot and maybe not as athletic, but still very athletic.

[3ball]

Yes there is. You didn't watch the Finals bro? Kawhi can put up numbers if the offense is run around him or he gets enough touches.

24/9/2/2/2 on 69/54/84 shooting

and the way he got those points, he was playing great off-ball, getting wide open from 3, driving to the hoop and making some plays for his teammates, alley-oop slams, Lebron on him and he just drained 20-ft jumpers on him like it's nothing

I wouldn't say he'd be a high-volume scorer (25+ ppg type), but his impact would be that of a star player at least at minimum, there's more to it than scoring. He will give you 18-20 points, he will give you 7-10 rebounds, he will make some plays for his teammates, protect the rim at times and swat some shots away with his long arms, get some steals and disrupt the opposing offenses and get the easy points in transition...

19.4 PER & .193 WS/48, 60%TS, 38% from 3 at 22 years old, in his 3rd NBA season

he has a lot of time to grow, so I wouldn't say his ceiling would be what it is right now. Shawn Marion would be a fair comparison imho, but with a better shot and maybe not as athletic, but still very athletic.
i compare kawhi's development to a lesser version of scottie pippen... i don't think kawhi will ever have scottie's vision or point-forward ability, however, i could be wrong about this..

but he seems a little more tunnel-vision when he has the ball - he catches it a ton in rhythm where he just has to finish a play, so he seems very focused on doing that when he catches it, as opposed to being the type of player that the coach looks to handle the rock and set up the offense.

anyway, the west is going to be even more insane than last year... 4 legit championship level teams not considering dark horses, so maybe more.

[rmt]

i compare kawhi's development to a lesser version of scottie pippen... i don't think kawhi will ever have scottie's vision or point-forward ability, however, i could be wrong about this..

but he seems a little more tunnel-vision when he has the ball - he catches it a ton in rhythm where he just has to finish a play, so he seems very focused on doing that when he catches it, as opposed to being the type of player that the coach looks to handle the rock and set up the offense.

anyway, the west is going to be even more insane than last year... 4 legit championship level teams not considering dark horses, so maybe more.

He just turned 23 - what do you want of a player? He plays elite defense - that's given. He can score given time and opportunity. Now you want him to be a play-maker and set up the offense - and this on a team that has Parker and Manu? One step at a time. Remember Parker when he just turned 23? And that was playing lots of minutes with the ball in his hands - look how he's turned out.

Edit: I don't mean to compare Leonard to Parker (as I think he'll be a better player than Parker) - I mean to compare how far Parker has grown from what he was back then.

[blacknapalm]

Yes there is. You didn't watch the Finals bro? Kawhi can put up numbers if the offense is run around him or he gets enough touches.

24/9/2/2/2 on 69/54/84 shooting

and the way he got those points, he was playing great off-ball, getting wide open from 3, driving to the hoop and making some plays for his teammates, alley-oop slams, Lebron on him and he just drained 20-ft jumpers on him like it's nothing

I wouldn't say he'd be a high-volume scorer (25+ ppg type), but his impact would be that of a star player at least at minimum, there's more to it than scoring. He will give you 18-20 points, he will give you 7-10 rebounds, he will make some plays for his teammates, protect the rim at times and swat some shots away with his long arms, get some steals and disrupt the opposing offenses and get the easy points in transition...

19.4 PER & .193 WS/48, 60%TS, 38% from 3 at 22 years old, in his 3rd NBA season

he has a lot of time to grow, so I wouldn't say his ceiling would be what it is right now. Shawn Marion would be a fair comparison imho, but with a better shot and maybe not as athletic, but still very athletic.

totally agreed. his shot has improved greatly since college. he has to become a better ball handler but i really don't see how he can't be a legit 20+ ppg scorer w/ elite rebounding for his position/size and elite defense which he's already shown. that's borderline superstar to me

[ImKobe]

i compare kawhi's development to a lesser version of scottie pippen... i don't think kawhi will ever have scottie's vision or point-forward ability, however, i could be wrong about this..

but he seems a little more tunnel-vision when he has the ball - he catches it a ton in rhythm where he just has to finish a play, so he seems very focused on doing that when he catches it, as opposed to being the type of player that the coach looks to handle the rock and set up the offense.

anyway, the west is going to be even more insane than last year... 4 legit championship level teams not considering dark horses, so maybe more.

Scottie Pippen put up superstar numbers. I'm not saying he will be Pippen..just a very good player that can do a multitude of things that has a bigger impact on the game than your average all-star player.

Agree on the bolded part, but that's were player development comes in. He seems like a bright young dude with a lot of motivation and he's already achieved what every other up-and-coming dude strives for - an NBA championship and a Finals MVP. And that's at 22 years of age, in his 3rd NBA season.

I'm not hyping this kid up to be some top 30 all-time great player, but he could be a very good player if he works on his offensive game, his defense is already elite and he was a key part of the Spurs epic team offense, and he has Gregg Popovich watching his every move and tutoring him. I'd be shocked if last season was his ceiling.