1996 Plus-Minus Data

[3ball]

Thanks to Flpiii's post in another forum, we have plus-minus data for 1996... http://www42.zippyshare.com/v/14257621/file.html

For 1996, Jordan led all players with +980, which is the largest +/- recorded since the data became available in 1994..


Top 10 +/- From 1996 Season

Jordan +980
Pippen +899
Kukocs +677
D. Robinson +625
Stockton +606
R. Harper +600
K. Malone +593
P. Hardaway +584
Rodman +581
Payton +577

11. Longley +520


With 5 players in the top 11, the 1996 Bulls are clearly the greatest team of all-time, and Jordan's off-ball style is clearly the optimal style for a wing player to lead the team with since it results in the most synergies and elevated play from stiffs like Longley and role players like Harper/Kukocs.



Top 10 +/- Scores from Entire Period (1994 to 2014)

1. 96 Jordan +980, +16.7, +15.2
2. 96 Pippen +899, +16.8, +11.8
3. 09 Lebron +871, +15, +21.2
4. 97 Jordan +818, +14, +9.7
5. 97 Pippen +807, +13.9, +9
6. 08 Pierce +784, +14.2, +9.8
7. 03 Nowitzki +778, +12.6, +20.4
8. 97 Hornacek +775, +15.9, +18
9. 97 Malone +768, +13.7, +16.3
10. 07 Duncan +746, +13.8, +14.5


This data wasn't even from his prime... So Jordan's the GOAT... Lebron might get to 6 rings with his newest super-team, but it won't mean as much because he won all the rings by being able to play with experienced veterans right away, which gave him the advantage over other players that didn't get to skip the skip the player development stages like he did, or the ups and downs of having tenure with a team.

People often underrate scoring versatility, but this versatility is what allows a player to fit in better with teammates, have better takeover ability, be more clutch, and even dunk on guys much more often and in many more ways, as we saw with the GIF's of 100 chest-to-chest MJ posters (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10540942#post10540942).
.

[fpliii]

I'm surprised that Mike and Scottie guys from 96 are that much better than 97. MJ shed weight to deal with the tendonitis I believe, and looked the fastest he did since 93 (my first year watching).

But yeah, the dude was a bonafide beast.

[3ball]

yeah, the dude was a bonafide beast.


Jordan's off-ball style is clearly the optimal style for a wing player to use & lead the team with, since it results in the most synergies and elevated play from stiffs like Longley and role players like Harper/Kukocs.

Lebron might get to 6 rings with his newest super-team, but it won't mean as much because he won all the rings by being able to play with experienced veterans right away, which gave him the advantage over other players that didn't get to skip the skip the player development stages like he did, or the ups and downs of having tenure with a team.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Jordan's off-ball style is clearly the optimal style for a wing player to use & lead the team with, since it results in the most synergies and elevated play from stiffs like Longley and role players like Harper/Kukocs.

Lebron might get to 6 rings with his newest super-team, but it won't mean as much because he won all the rings by being able to play with experienced veterans right away, which gave him the advantage over other players that didn't get to skip the skip the player development stages like he did, or the ups and downs of having tenure with a team.

Dude you seriously got to stop being obsessed with Lebron. We get it, he's the GOAT SF and one of the top 10 greatest of all time, but seriously man no need to love him THAT much

[3ball]

Dude you seriously got to stop being obsessed with Lebron. We get it, he's the GOAT SF and one of the top 10 greatest of all time, but seriously man no need to love him THAT much
Look man, it's some great data... It's not my fault if ALL the data that keeps coming out only clearly indicates Jordan's vast superiority.

So don't blame me, blame the numbers - Jordan's the one that was a +980 in a single season at the age of 32, obliterating everyone else during the entire time period.

One can only wonder about his plus/minus from his prime years given that his post-prime years is already GOAT from the information we have.

[Cocaine80s]

OP rivaling Kennethgriffin in retardedness

[3ball]

OP rivaling Kennethgriffin in retardedness


The numbers do the talking in this thread.

Let me know when Lebron has a +980 plus/minus...... :yaohappy:

[HurricaneKid]

The numbers do the talking in this thread.

Let me know when Lebron has a +980 plus/minus...... :yaohappy:

:confusedshrug:

08/09

http://www.82games.com/0809/08CLE9.HTM

[HurricaneKid]

Yeah I need to see how some of this stuff was calculated. Because 82 games has drastically different numbers for them (doesn't have it very far back though). Also, Basketball Reference has LeBron at +1017 for the 08-09 season.

[fpliii]

Yeah I need to see how some of this stuff was calculated. Because 82 games has drastically different numbers for them (doesn't have it very far back though). Also, Basketball Reference has LeBron at +1017 for the 08-09 season.
These are raw +/- numbers (point differential while on the floor)...82 games and B-R call this "On". This isn't on/off.

There are minor differences (82games has a difference of 2 from the OP's numbers) due to how possessions are calculated on different sites.

But yeah, there's definitely no question as to their validity (the original source for the 93-94, 94-95, 95-96 numbers is Harvey Pollack's Statistical Yearbooks, his team calculated based on the play-by-play sheets before they were digitalized starting in 96-97).

[ralph_i_el]

So what you're saying is MJ was only good because of Pippen and Kukocs?

[HurricaneKid]

These are raw +/- numbers (point differential while on the floor)...82 games and B-R call this "On". This isn't on/off.

There are minor differences (82games has a difference of 2 from the OP's numbers) due to how possessions are calculated on different sites.

But yeah, there's definitely no question as to their validity (the original source for the 93-94, 94-95, 95-96 numbers is Harvey Pollack's Statistical Yearbooks, his team calculated based on the play-by-play sheets before they were digitalized starting in 96-97).

Do have you sufficient data to recreate on/off?

How far off are we from RAPM data?

[fpliii]

Do have you sufficient data to recreate on/off?

How far off are we from RAPM data?
Yeah, lorak of RealGM put one together (since we have the pace numbers, we know the number of possessions played, and can calculate on/off). League-wide data starts in 93-94 (look at the "Net" column):

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Z-0DQCSQr5vMLUp1zY4DbsmzBM4UFghqG4dc1eHfBh4/edit#gid=1672058251

He also included data for earlier seasons (the guides I have for the Sixers have on/off numbers going pretty far back...I have all post-merger guides, not sure how far back it goes, but I'll pick up more and find out).

[HurricaneKid]

Yeah, lorak of RealGM put one together (since we have the pace numbers, we know the number of possessions played, and can calculate on/off). League-wide data starts in 93-94 (look at the "Net" column):

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Z-0DQCSQr5vMLUp1zY4DbsmzBM4UFghqG4dc1eHfBh4/edit#gid=1672058251

He also included data for earlier seasons (the guides I have for the Sixers have on/off numbers going pretty far back...I have all post-merger guides, not sure how far back it goes, but I'll pick up more and find out).


I'm going to assume you gave me the wrong link since it was just 76ers which makes it a very limited data set.

There are a few rounding concerns, but if Jordan was +980, the Bulls were +29 without him

(they were ~13.3 pts/gm better (this is where the rounding concerns are) X82 games = 1009 points, 1009-980 = 29 points)

This would make him +951 which is mighty impressive considering most believe he was past his peak play by then.

I'd love to see some of the late 80s/early 90s figures.

[fpliii]

I'm going to assume you gave me the wrong link since it was just 76ers which makes it a very limited data set.

There are a few rounding concerns, but if Jordan was +980, the Bulls were +29 without him

(they were ~13.3 pts/gm better (this is where the rounding concerns are) X82 games = 1009 points, 1009-980 = 29 points)

This would make him +951 which is mighty impressive considering most believe he was past his peak play by then.

I'd love to see some of the late 80s/early 90s figures.
88-93 is just the Sixers, scroll down and the league-wide numbers should be there.

[HurricaneKid]

88-93 is just the Sixers, scroll down and the league-wide numbers should be there.

I'll have to check at home then. I can't get to them on my work CPU (old programs).

[3ball]

Top 10 +/- Scores from Entire Period (1994 to 2014)

1. 96 Jordan +980, +16.7, +15.2
2. 96 Pippen +899, +16.8, +11.8
3. 09 Lebron +871, +15, +21.2
4. 97 Jordan +818, +14, +9.7
5. 97 Pippen +807, +13.9, +9
6. 08 Pierce +784, +14.2, +9.8
7. 03 Nowitzki +778, +12.6, +20.4
8. 97 Hornacek +775, +15.9, +18
9. 97 Malone +768, +13.7, +16.3
10. 07 Duncan +746, +13.8, +14.5


This data wasn't even from his prime... So Jordan's the GOAT... Lebron might get to 6 rings with his newest super-team, but it won't mean as much because he won all the rings by being able to play with experienced veterans right away, which gave him the advantage over other players that didn't get to skip the skip the player development stages like he did, or the ups and downs of having tenure with a team.

People often underrate scoring versatility, but this versatility is what allows a player to fit in better with teammates, have better takeover ability, be more clutch, and even dunk on guys much more often and in many more ways, as we saw with the GIF's of 100 chest-to-chest MJ posters (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10540942#post10540942).






Also, Basketball Reference has LeBron at +1017 for the 08-09 season.



more lies to prop up lebron... :no:... It was +871... NOT +1017.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/plus_minus_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=&match=single&output=total&year_min=2009&year_max=2009&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=N&team_id=CLE&opp_id=&game_num_min=1&game_num_max=82&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&c1stat=&c1comp=ge&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=ge&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=ge&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=ge&c4val=&order_by=diff_pts
.

[RRR3]

LeBron not even in the top 10 :roll: :facepalm:

Okay, 3ball, I'm convinced, LeBron really is terrible


MJ=Jesus/Buddha/Yahweh/Allah/Jennifer Lopez/Jimi Hendrix

[SamuraiSWISH]

GOAT goating doe

[LeBird]

OP rivaling Kennethgriffin in retardedness

Difference being with Kenneth it's an act. This guy is actually serious.

[3ball]

Difference being with Kenneth it's an act. This guy is actually serious.
Your post is an act to deny the truth in the OP.. Lebron's value-add goes down when he plays with talent.. :confusedshrug:

[juju151111]

Difference being with Kenneth it's an act. This guy is actually serious.
He didn't come up with the list. He just posting it

[kshutts1]

Top 10 +/- Scores from Entire Period (1994 to 2014)

1. 96 Jordan +980, +16.7, +15.2
2. 96 Pippen +899, +16.8, +11.8
3. 09 Lebron +871, +15, +21.2
4. 97 Jordan +818, +14, +9.7
5. 97 Pippen +807, +13.9, +9
6. 08 Pierce +784, +14.2, +9.8
7. 03 Nowitzki +778, +12.6, +20.4
8. 97 Hornacek +775, +15.9, +18
9. 97 Malone +768, +13.7, +16.3
10. 07 Duncan +746, +13.8, +14.5


This data wasn't even from his prime... So Jordan's the GOAT... Lebron might get to 6 rings with his newest super-team, but it won't mean as much because he won all the rings by being able to play with experienced veterans right away, which gave him the advantage over other players that didn't get to skip the skip the player development stages like he did, or the ups and downs of having tenure with a team.


So using your logic, Pippen is obviously better than Lebron as well, not to mention every other guy on that list... Or am I misunderstanding your saying Jordan is "obviously GOAT" because his +/- is higher?

[jlip]

Thanks to Flpiii's post in another forum, we have plus-minus data for 1996... http://www42.zippyshare.com/v/14257621/file.html

For 1996, Jordan led all players with +980, which is the largest +/- recorded since the data became available in 1994..


Top 10 +/- From 1996 Season

Jordan +980
Pippen +899
Kukocs +677
D. Robinson +625
Stockton +606
R. Harper +600
K. Malone +593
P. Hardaway +584
Rodman +581
Payton +577

11. Longley +520


With 5 players in the top 11, the 1996 Bulls are clearly the greatest team of all-time, and Jordan's off-ball style is clearly the optimal style for a wing player to lead the team with since it results in the most synergies and elevated play from stiffs like Longley and role players like Harper/Kukocs.

.

Where did you learn to draw conclusions? You just claimed that judging from data that only goes back to 1994, the Bulls were "clearly the greatest team of all time." You made a clear, definitive statement about every team since 1946 based primarily on +/- data since 1994. :facepalm What we know is that the 1996 Bulls clearly had the best regular season record of all time. That's it.

[DatAsh]

Difference being with Kenneth it's an act. This guy is actually serious.
No way Kenneth is an act. He's been at it for 15 years. I think both are serious.

[HurricaneKid]

more lies to prop up lebron... :no:... It was +871... NOT +1017.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/plus_minus_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=&match=single&output=total&year_min=2009&year_max=2009&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=N&team_id=CLE&opp_id=&game_num_min=1&game_num_max=82&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&c1stat=&c1comp=ge&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=ge&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=ge&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=ge&c4val=&order_by=diff_pts
.

You are too dumb to even understand what stat you are using. Every decent measure of on/off compares the team without a player and with the player. All you are doing is the half of the equation for when they are on the floor.

The Bulls were +29 without MJ in 2006. The Cavs were -137 without LeBron in 2009. And you are completely ignoring that portion of the equation. AGAIN AND AGAIN.

[Sakkreth]

08/09 Cavs were -137 without LeBron on the floor and +871 with LeBron on the floor :eek:

[HurricaneKid]

08/09 Cavs were -137 without LeBron on the floor and +871 with LeBron on the floor :eek:

http://www.82games.com/0809/08CLE9.HTM

Yeah, never seen anything like it. Thats a bottom 5 NBA team without him and a top 10 in wins team with him.

Really curious what first 3-peat and before MJ looks like...

[ralph_i_el]

You are too dumb to even understand what stat you are using. Every decent measure of on/off compares the team without a player and with the player. All you are doing is the half of the equation for when they are on the floor.

The Bulls were +29 without MJ in 2006. The Cavs were -137 without LeBron in 2009. And you are completely ignoring that portion of the equation. AGAIN AND AGAIN.
ether. drop knowledge, gain green. future rep

[RRR3]

Hurricanekid bodybagged 3ball :roll:

[Prometheus]

OP decisively beaten ITT.

It's amazing how his agenda is MJ > LBJ, which I wholeheartedly agree with, and yet he has STILL become one of the most, if not the most obnoxious poster(s) on this entire forum.

[3ball]

You are too dumb to even understand what stat you are using. Every decent measure of on/off compares the team without a player and with the player. All you are doing is the half of the equation for when they are on the floor.

The Bulls were +29 without MJ in 1996. The Cavs were -137 without LeBron in 2009. And you are completely ignoring that portion of the equation. AGAIN AND AGAIN.
Lebron's plus/minus alongside championship-level supporting casts in Miami is far worse than Jordan's was in 1996.. lebron didn't have anywhere near a championship team in 09', yet his on/off barely beats mj's in 96'

Just imagine if we had the plus/minus data for Jordan back when he was carrying garbage teams to the playoffs.... oooohweeee, he would destroy Lebron even worse..

But Jordan's game was much more adaptable to teammates, so it shouldn't be a surprise that Jordan still added massive value to supporting casts that were already very good, while Lebron could not in Miami and only had elite on/off with weaker teams in 09'.

[Manny98]

Draymond has the highest +/- of all time Jordan isn't even in the top 3 :oldlol:

https://i.postimg.cc/qB3QZgsN/0412oFt.jpg

Curry has 3 of the top 5 I guess he is the GOAT :bowdown:

[Manny98]

The numbers do the talking in this thread.

Let me know when Lebron has a +980 plus/minus...... :yaohappy:
Let me know when Jordan has a +1000 plus/minus...... :yaohappy:

https://i.postimg.cc/9Md32b6k/tenor.gif

[3ball]

Draymond has the highest +/- of all time Jordan isn't even in the top 3 :oldlol:

https://i.postimg.cc/qB3QZgsN/0412oFt.jpg

Curry has 3 of the top 5 I guess he is the GOAT :bowdown:
MJ had the record for 20 years: 96-16'

Plus-minus isn't the only measure of greatness, but it's just another stat that supports mj's case.. and we already know that only MJ is top 2 in the 4 major advanced stats: PER, WS/48, BPM, VORP

btw, check out the other thread about lebron's plus-minus on good teams (Miami) - it sucks - literally half what he had alongside weaker casts in his first Cleveland stint... This proves that he doesn't add nearly as much value to good casts, and we know why - his ball-dominance reduces good players into spot-up shooters

Otoh, MJ set the record for plus-minus on that goat 96' team, thus proving his off-ball style is optimal and maximizes everyone..and just imagine if we had his plus-minus data for his early garbage casts.. it must've been thru the roof

[plowking]

Steph Curry the GOAT.

[3ball]

Steph Curry the GOAT.
MJ had the record for 20 years: 96-16'

Plus-minus isn't the only measure of greatness, but it's just another stat that supports mj's case.. and we already know that only MJ is top 2 in the 4 major advanced stats: PER, WS/48, BPM, VORP

btw, check out the other thread about lebron's plus-minus on good teams (Miami) - it sucks - literally half what he had alongside weaker casts in his first Cleveland stint... This proves that he doesn't add nearly as much value to good casts, and we know why - his ball-dominance reduces good players into spot-up shooters

Otoh, MJ set the record for plus-minus on that goat 96' team, thus proving his off-ball style is optimal and maximizes everyone..and just imagine if we had his plus-minus data for his early garbage casts.. it must've been thru the roof.

[LostCause]

This is actually some pretty good information

Keep it up. More information we have the better

[Uncle Drew]

Yeah, this solidifies Curry as the greatest player of all time. It's what the eye test tells us too.

[LostCause]

Draymond has the highest +/- of all time Jordan isn't even in the top 3 :oldlol:

https://i.postimg.cc/qB3QZgsN/0412oFt.jpg

Curry has 3 of the top 5 I guess he is the GOAT :bowdown:

Just common sense would tell you if 96 Jordan is in the Top 4, 1st 3peat Jordan (Which is arguably the GOAT peak) would be higher


Also, there's a Jeff Hornacek appearance :lol

[SpaceJam2]

OP rivaling Kennethgriffin in retardedness

So this has been a thing for many, many years I see :oldlol: :oldlol:


The numbers do the talking in this thread.

Let me know when Lebron has a +980 plus/minus...... :yaohappy:

bUt tHoSe aRe toTaLs tHo

Or are totals okay to use now because if so

https://i.postimg.cc/zGZCX733/leadscorers.jpg

[SpaceJam2]

Let me know when Jordan has a +1000 plus/minus...... :yaohappy:

https://i.postimg.cc/9Md32b6k/tenor.gif

I swear if 3balll just shut up and let people think Jordan was actually the goat he would be more believable than bringing up all these dated stats and getting roasted thread after thread :lol

MJ was good. in the 90s
It's 2019.

[Manny98]

Just common sense would tell you if 96 Jordan is in the Top 4, 1st 3peat Jordan (Which is arguably the GOAT peak) would be higher


Also, there's a Jeff Hornacek appearance :lol
No because the 1st 3peat bulls were less dominant than the 96 Bulls

[StrongLurk]

It shows that the NBA 96-99 was much weaker than the late 80's/early 90's.

When the same players, but older and worse, end up winning more games and more championships then it means the competition got worse.

[And1AllDay]

Let me know when Jordan has a +1000 plus/minus...... :yaohappy:

https://i.postimg.cc/9Md32b6k/tenor.gif

Well that escalated quickly.


3baLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL


Taking some many Ls we have to make that name longer now

3baLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

[LostCause]

No because the 1st 3peat bulls were less dominant than the 96 Bulls

92 Bulls won 67 games and were about as dominant. There's little doubt his +/- would be higher that season, if you're being truthful

[plowking]

MJ had the record for 20 years: 96-16'

Plus-minus isn't the only measure of greatness, but it's just another stat that supports mj's case.. and we already know that only MJ is top 2 in the 4 major advanced stats: PER, WS/48, BPM, VORP

btw, check out the other thread about lebron's plus-minus on good teams (Miami) - it sucks - literally half what he had alongside weaker casts in his first Cleveland stint... This proves that he doesn't add nearly as much value to good casts, and we know why - his ball-dominance reduces good players into spot-up shooters

Otoh, MJ set the record for plus-minus on that goat 96' team, thus proving his off-ball style is optimal and maximizes everyone..and just imagine if we had his plus-minus data for his early garbage casts.. it must've been thru the roof.

I'm calling your teacher right now and telling her you plagiarize. If you copy and paste this much on an internet forum, you're most definitely doing it on your assignments.

Curry is amazing though.