Magic Johnson vs. Michael Jordan in the Post

[Stringer Bell]

Which MJ was more effective in the post?

Jordan had more variety of moves in the post: spins, fadeaways going to his left and his right, on the block, excellent footwork and fakes, dipping under for the lay-ins.

Magic didn't have as many moves as Jordan but his moves were highly effective. In addition to being tall enough to be a PF (hell, some centers are only slightly taller than Magic), he had excellent spin moves, and he could make hook shots from both his right hand and his left hand. Being possibly the best passer ever, he of course was very effective at passing when posting up as well.

[navy]

Magic could post up Michael.

MJ is better as it is mainly scoring skillset.

[riseagainst]

MJ > MJ. Deal with it.

[SHAQisGOAT]

I'd probably say Magic yea, he's bigger and more effective there, he had a great soft-touch from close, he could drive/spin, and most importantly he had a really good hook-shot (already there before he was a pro then developed it, even with Kareem), not to mention that he was also a great passer out of the post...
And yea, MJ probably had more moves overall though, also a better fadeaway.

And Michael, even as great as he was as a defender, was murked plenty of times by Magic or Bird in the post, due their size, skill and smarts.

[Sakkreth]

MJ > MJ. Deal with it.

Very informative post. Please keep sharing ur knowledge.

[Cold soul]

MJ > MJ. Deal with it.


http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l633/msnowfox/RunJack.gif (http://media.photobucket.com/user/msnowfox/media/RunJack.gif.html)

[Hey Yo]

I'd probably say Magic yea, he's bigger and more effective there, he had a great soft-touch from close, he could drive/spin, and most importantly he had a really good hook-shot (already there before he was a pro then developed it, even with Kareem), not to mention that he was also a great passer out of the post...
And yea, MJ probably had more moves overall though, also a better fadeaway.

And Michael, even as great as he was as a defender, was murked plenty of times by Magic or Bird in the post, due their size, skill and smarts.
I think it can be easily said that Jordan had the better fadeaway considering I don't think I ever saw Magic shoot a fadeaway jumper from the post. Not saying he never did, but don't recall it being part of his post moves repertoire.

[T_L_P]

I've not seen a lot of either of them in the post, but from what I have seen I would say Magic is better.

He made it looked easier than Jordan did imo.

[riseagainst]

I've not seen a lot of either of them in the post, but from what I have seen I would say Magic is better.

He made it looked easier than Jordan did imo.

mainly because of him being taller?

[T_L_P]

mainly because of him being taller?

Almost solely. :oldlol:

Magic had a very fluid post game though. His hooks were awesome. :applause:

[AlphaWolf24]

Depends, ( scoring wise)

on the low Block Magic had a very good hook(baby)shot over both hands and he also could back his defender down and Drop step em' ( turning over either shoulder)...being 6'9" obviously gave him an advantage on the block...against bigger defenders Magic like to attack off the dribble mainly from the top of the key ( drive /layup)...not necessarily a post move.

BUT, scoring wise.....(everywhere except for the low block) Jordan was a much more dangerous player...especially from the PINCH POST

he could face up and blow past anyone for a layup/dunk/hang in air and wait shot :confusedshrug: ( I don't even know what to call em)

he could turn over both shoulders and fadeway ( especially after 1991, that was his go to move)...or he could just take 1 hard dribble and pull up....he was to fast and to skilled.

[oarabbus]

MJ > MJ. Deal with it.


:biggums:


WTF are you saying, did you even watch MJ? He's on another level than MJ. Boxscore tracker confirmed.

[bizil]

Even though Jordan is the GOAT, Bird, Magic, and Lebron have a size and versatility that sets them apart from the other great perimeter players. The fact they can move to the PF position sets them apart MJ, Kobe, West, Big O, Hondo, Isiah, Doc etc. So I would say Magic over MJ because if anything Magic has big man type size and traits. In terms of technical level, MJ may be the greatest perimeter player in the post ever.

[Cold soul]

Even though Jordan is the GOAT, Bird, Magic, and Lebron have a size and versatility that sets them apart from the other great perimeter players. The fact they can move to the PF position sets them apart MJ, Kobe, West, Big O, Hondo, Isiah, Doc etc. So I would say Magic over MJ because if anything Magic has big man type size and traits. In terms of technical level, MJ may be the greatest perimeter player in the post ever.

I'd say Kobe was more technical and skilled in the post with his footwork than MJ, but Jordan was much stronger and quicker with his shot in the post.

[Cocaine80s]

inb4 3ball

[3ball]

people don't realize it, but magic ran a large proportion of the Lakers' offense from the post...

he would also run screen rolls from the post where he would be posting and Kareem would come set a screen for him and then roll... it was pretty unstoppable... but you don't see PG's today do that, as in run a screen roll from the post or routinely run the offense by backing down their man into the post and creating from there.

so it depends on what you need... if you need a guy to run your offense, go with Magic... if you need a go-to scorer, go with the best in Jordan - for the Bulls, they didn't need a traditional inside post presence because Jordan was their post presence.
.

[TiagoSimoes]

inb4 3ball

:oldlol:

[3ball]

.
My choice would be Magic in this particular argument because he lived on the post and had cp3/nash/stocton-level vision but was 6'9"... :bowdown:



But Jordan was a wizard on the post too.... He's the only guy that routinely eluded defenders for dunks FROM THE POST where the defender must be beaten within a tighter space... :bowdown:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/6c207ee339e90a937b6e68c39e42278b.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_over_Pervis_Ellison_7e3ceb9e87bef60abe4a041 07afa5fa4.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/06f7330ce5244086308a42cb6a329d86.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/0552c6acb1b36da6ff0cabd5d003ff65.gif

[SyRyanYang]

inb4 3ball

lol please tell me next lotto number

will rep:cheers:

[andgar923]

I'd say Kobe was more technical and skilled in the post with his footwork than MJ, but Jordan was much stronger and quicker with his shot in the post.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[swagga]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

would you care to show me where jordan does spin reverse pivots, off the backboard to self and other insane almost streetball moves ?

We both dislike kobe because of his chucking ways but let's keep it real, his footwork is godly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpuswrs-Svg

[ArbitraryWater]

I'd say Kobe was more technical and skilled in the post with his footwork than MJ, but Jordan was much stronger and quicker with his shot in the post.

Of course you would

[SHAQisGOAT]

I think it can be easily said that Jordan had the better fadeaway considering I don't think I ever saw Magic shoot a fadeaway jumper from the post. Not saying he never did, but don't recall it being part of his post moves repertoire.

Yea, the probably part didn't aply to the fadeway... Jordan definitely had a better one, and like you've said, Magic did it rarely.

[swagga]

frankly I can't see how this is a discussion because magic won titles going aginst big men and doing work in both the low post and the high post.

sure Jordan is an exceptional high post player, triple-threat+fadeaway and all and imo they are comparable high-post presences (both elite).

But when you speak about low post impact magic >>> jordan. Baby hook, swim move, drop step, spins, plus being a superior passer from the post, actual post defense (jordan is overrated here IMO), low-post high post action (worthy, kareem benefited greatly). Hell magic abused jordan in the post in 1991 finals.

No discussion imo.

[swagga]

Yea, the probably part didn't aply to the fadeway... Jordan definitely had a better one, and like you've said, Magic did it rarely.

for magic the baby hook and to the basket moves were better options imo, that's why he didn't develop a fadeaway because he already had better percentages, better rebound positions, better late passing opportunities. Better options.

[SHAQisGOAT]

for magic the baby hook and to the basket moves were better options imo, that's why he didn't develop a fadeaway because he already had better percentages, better rebound positions, better late passing opportunities. Better options.

Yes, I agree.

[Dragonyeuw]

would you care to show me where jordan does spin reverse pivots, off the backboard to self and other insane almost streetball moves ?

We both dislike kobe because of his chucking ways but let's keep it real, his footwork is godly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpuswrs-Svg

Set aside 4 hours and watch this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8sLAbHud8bQ

Then get back to us.....you should see everything you mentioned above.

[hitmanyr2k]

would you care to show me where jordan does spin reverse pivots, off the backboard to self and other insane almost streetball moves ?

We both dislike kobe because of his chucking ways but let's keep it real, his footwork is godly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpuswrs-Svg

You mean like these?

http://i.imgur.com/Z90kVjZ.gif

http://i.imgur.com/O4rY0dT.gif

[fpliii]

How does Bird figure into the mix here?

[SHAQisGOAT]

How does Bird figure into the mix here?


Probably the best out of the 3, overall, he had some of what Jordan "brought" and some of what Magic "brought", in the post.

He didn't have the "fortune" of playing against smaller defenders (than himself) as much as Magic though, but he still face them plenty when coaches wanted to put really quick players on him, to try and contain his terrific outside game (even going through screens and such)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBnwSeMiVaU

[fpliii]

Probably the best out of the 3, overall, he had some of what Jordan "brought" and some of what Magic "brought", in the post.

He didn't have the "fortune" of playing against smaller defenders (than himself) as much as Magic though, but he still face them plenty when coaches wanted to put really quick players on him, to try and contain his terrific outside game (even going through screens and such)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBnwSeMiVaU

What's weird is, and maybe it's from a limited sample of my watching tape of the Celtics, that Parish seemed to be spotting up more often (or finishing), as opposed to playing with his back to the basket. It seems like it was always one of Bird, McHale, or Walton on the block offensively, with Parish waiting for a pass to shoot his rainbow shot or the lop inside.

Am I mistaken? If not, what kind of players were guarding Bird on the block? Wings or bigs?

[Pointguard]

If the team has more weapons and/or movement then Magic is your man. With Jordan the coach can make adjustments - might not help though. Magic can go down the list to plan D as the whole team is his weapon when he is in the post. If a team loads up in any way - Magic is going to see the weakest spot. As a team option its Magic. As setting up a scoring presence its Jordan.

[SHAQisGOAT]

What's weird is, and maybe it's from a limited sample of my watching tape of the Celtics, that Parish seemed to be spotting up more often (or finishing), as opposed to playing with his back to the basket. It seems like it was always one of Bird, McHale, or Walton on the block offensively, with Parish waiting for a pass to shoot his rainbow shot or the lop inside.

Am I mistaken? If not, what kind of players were guarding Bird on the block? Wings or bigs?

Yes, you have a point there... When McHale came into his own while Bird developed his post-game and decided to take it there more, so since the mid-80s, Parish was spotting up (hitting that high-arching rainbow), cutting (after picks too) and finishing (even on the fast-break) more than posting-up, got fed more those ways than he did with his back-to-the-basket, even though the latter still happened ofc. Chief was really good at "fitting" that role though. He played in the post more in his earlier years, with the C's.

Depends... Like I've said, coaches had to switch it up because he was deadly from the outside or on the post (mostly/especially at his best), and so on, plus he knew what to do, taking advantage of what the defense gave him.
Throughout his career he was guarded by the likes of Michael Cooper, Bobby Jones, Dennis Rodman, Horace Grant, Dominique Wilkins, Caldwell Jones, Scottie Pippen, Rodney McCray, Julius Erving, Larry Nance, Paul Pressey, Dan Roundfield, Gene Banks, Kenny Walker, Jerome Kersey, Brad Sellers, James Worthy, Clyde Drexler, Sidney Moncrief...... So you won't see any clear pattern there, even though I'd say he was guarded by perimeter players who had strength and length (along with speed, height and agility) more than anything else.

[Cold soul]

Of course you would

I never he was better just more technical and skilled in post than MJ was. I never once said Kobe was better overall.

[dreamwarrior]

Jordan had a lot more highlights but Magic was unstoppable in the post.

[swagga]

Set aside 4 hours and watch this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8sLAbHud8bQ

Then get back to us.....you should see everything you mentioned above.

i've seen jordan live since the late 80s, I don't need a video to show me was freaking amazing and a much more efficient post player than kobe. But kobe did improve some of his moves and had more fluidity in their execution. Doesn't mean he was a better/more efficient post player.

Where jordan had explosive footwork, kobe had ellegant footwork. Also kobe has more creativity in footwork as he came after jordan and got to study jordan's work.

Again, I don't imply kobe has a better postgame, his footwork is just more natural.

[Da_Realist]

I can't say who was better but nobody was more exciting to watch in the post than Michael Jordan.

Too smart, too quick, too explosive, too creative, too skilled. Here's an 18 min video by medestinier

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfSftZvpHJg

[SamuraiSWISH]

Kobe's as skilled footwork wise as MJ in the post. Especially considering his entire game is a copy of Jordan's. Mike however got much more separation on his moves. Quicker, stronger, and better leaper. Magic might be the better overall post player given his size, versatility, and ability to pass.

[sportjames23]

Even though Jordan is the GOAT, Bird, Magic, and Lebron have a size and versatility that sets them apart from the other great perimeter players. The fact they can move to the PF position sets them apart MJ, Kobe, West, Big O, Hondo, Isiah, Doc etc. So I would say Magic over MJ because if anything Magic has big man type size and traits. In terms of technical level, MJ may be the greatest perimeter player in the post ever.


By including Lebron in this, I hope you're not saying he's a better post player than Jordan. Because, for a guy his size, Lebron is very weak in the post. MJ was one of the best players ever in the post.

[RRR3]

LeBron is an excellent post player Gtfo

[sportjames23]

Set aside 4 hours and watch this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8sLAbHud8bQ

Then get back to us.....you should see everything you mentioned above.


****in ether.

Not sure where this meme that Kobe's footwork > MJ's came from. It's like a lot of fools really did not see MJ play.

[sportjames23]

You mean like these?

http://i.imgur.com/Z90kVjZ.gif

http://i.imgur.com/O4rY0dT.gif


****in ether, Part 2.

[SamuraiSWISH]

LeBron is an excellent post player Gtfo
Meh. He's decent. Ocassionally good, but never consistent enough to be considered great, let alone in the elite class like: MJ, Kobe, Bird, or Magic.

He's stated several times himself that he's not comfortable down there, and he really plays more like a 6'8 scoring PG. He's all face up game off the dribble. If he was an "excellent" post player, he would've had better on court chemistry to maximize Bosh, and Wade down in Miami.

Instead his colluded star help grew disinterested, or motivated over time ... particularly post 2012. And their superstar caliber abilities suffered tremendous amounts of atrophy.

[RRR3]

He's very good in the post whenever I watched him :confusedshrug: seems like he scores every time he gets the ball down there

[sportjames23]

LeBron is an excellent post player Gtfo

:oldlol:

[SamuraiSWISH]

He's very good in the post whenever I watched him :confusedshrug: seems like he scores every time he gets the ball down there
He doesn't, he's not consistent, he's not super comfortable down there ... which lends itself to lack of confidence. Why a lack of confidence? Lack of skill. He doesn't have near the tenacity down there, or fluidity to be considered very good. And he didn't even get the post game he has until 8 years into his career. Never bothered with it previously.

[RRR3]

I'm not arguing this. There are some things people will never admit about LeBron :coleman:

[SamuraiSWISH]

I'm not arguing this. There are some things people will never admit about LeBron :coleman:
Or maybe you're just overvaluing that particular aspect of his game? Honestly he's decent to good. Not very good, not great, certainly not elite.

[RRR3]

I stand by my opinion. Agree to disagree

[sportjames23]

I see some jimmies got rustled.

[SHAQisGOAT]

LeBron is an excellent post player Gtfo


No, he's not. And he's not even that close to the same level as Bird, Magic, Jordan...

[juju151111]

Or maybe you're just overvaluing that particular aspect of his game? Honestly he's decent to good. Not very good, not great, certainly not elite.
LeBron became elite in the Post and stats back it up.

[juju151111]

No, he's not. And he's not even that close to the same level as Bird, Magic, Jordan...
Who in the mgs today is a better perimeter post player.

[kshutts1]

All the gifs of Jordan that are in this thread...

Did defenders back then not scout? Just guard the baseline against him. Obviously I know it's not that simple, but that does seem to be his go-to move, not to mention funneling players AWAY from the baseline is a typical basketball strategy, as there's more help D in the middle. Baseline can help, obviously, and it's basically another person, but you need to tighten down on it more than those defenders were...

[c5terror]

would you care to show me where jordan does spin reverse pivots, off the backboard to self and other insane almost streetball moves ?

We both dislike kobe because of his chucking ways but let's keep it real, his footwork is godly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpuswrs-Svg

You don't know sh!t.
MJ footwork, post move>>>>>>>>Kobe not even close.

18min video of different kind of post move
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfSftZvpHJg

[c5terror]

All the gifs of Jordan that are in this thread...

Did defenders back then not scout? Just guard the baseline against him. Obviously I know it's not that simple, but that does seem to be his go-to move, not to mention funneling players AWAY from the baseline is a typical basketball strategy, as there's more help D in the middle. Baseline can help, obviously, and it's basically another person, but you need to tighten down on it more than those defenders were...

Jordan always keep the defense guessing, he has tons of different variety of moves and Isiah said it best, Jordan give you something different every time.

[Lord Bean]

better post game - lebron or peak kobe/?

[c5terror]

better post game - lebron or peak kobe/?
Kobe,
As for Lebron, post is not his game, 95% of his game were drive dunk/layup/spot up, 3% post game with travelling violation and 2% of clean but ugly and stif postup.

[hitmanyr2k]

When it comes to Lebron I put it like this....he can play in the post mainly because of his size and can take advantage of mismatches but he's not truly a post player where he has a variety of moves, counters and shots that can beat the defense like a Jordan, Kobe, or Bird.

[riseagainst]

Kobe,
As for Lebron, post is not his game, 95% of his game were drive dunk/layup/spot up, 3% post game with travelling violation and 2% of clean but ugly and stif postup.


:lol

[Hoopz2332]

lebron is actually a beast in the post and the difference between what he does vs let's say Kobe/MJ is that lebron isn't only just a scoring threat in the post, he will also pick you apart with his passing from the post/a post position.

http://sportsgif.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/LeBron-James-Behind-The-Back-Pass-GIF.gif


http://i.imgur.com/arLocSo.jpg




The Unique Ubiquity of LeBron James on the Cover of This Week’s Sports Illustrated (2013)

http://i.imgur.com/o6rqX9L.jpg


LeBron James’s ability to contribute at a high level at all five positions places him among the most versatile players the NBA has ever seen. This week’s SPORTS ILLUSTRATED, which features James on the cover, breaks down James’s stunning array of skills, position by position, with takes by Lee Jenkins, Chris Ballard, Ian Thomsen, Mark Jackson and Bill Walton. This is the 19th SI cover for James; the last time he appeared was when he was named the 2012 SI Sportsman of the Year.

Small Forward: Since every player requires a position, Heat coach Erik Spoelestra pencils in James at small forward. Often manned by the most versatile player on the floor, the three spot is where the 6′ 8″, 250-pound star seems to fit best. Jenkins says, “James performs all the job’s diverse duties: slashing inside for layups and stepping out for three-pointers, handling the ball and hitting the glass, accepting the toughest defensive assignments and smothering them.” (PAGE 32)

Point Guard: Warriors coach Mark Jackson, a former point guard for 17 years in the NBA, says James’s skills at the point are similar to Magic Johnson’s, if Johnson had possessed the ability to score 30 every day. “To me, he has the chance to be the leading scorer in the history of this game and one of the top five assists guys,” says Jackson. “That’s how special he is.” (PAGE 33) Jackson says that in addition to being an excellent passer, James uses his length and strength to disrupt opposing point guards on the defensive end. “Even if he had to play only point guard on both offense and defense, he’s my Number 1 pick at the position right now,” says Jackson. (PAGE 33)

Shooting Guard: When James entered the league, he struggled with his outside shooting—teams dared him to shoot threes as he often took off-balance shots. Since his days in Cleveland, Ballard finds that James has worked with a shooting coach to create a “calmer” shot, which has helped turn him into a better long-range shooter. Now, Spoelestra takes James off the ball for large chunks of time, which enables James to take more efficient spot-up jump shots.“LeBron James could be, would be and is an excellent shooting guard,” says Ballard. “He can drive, he can score and he can defend opposing twos.” (PAGE 34)

Power Forward: James recently developed a post-up game, in which he bangs and bruises like a power forward, writes Ian Thomsen. After working on post moves with Hakeem Olajuwon before last season, teams now fear James inside—a place where he is one dribble from the basket and one kick-out pass from finding a wide-open shooter. “When the time is right, James could yet become the league’s most challenging power forward, having both an unparalleled ability to pass out of the post combined with a touch that will stretch defenses out to the three-point line,” says Thomsen. “It’s shocking to be the best player in the world and continue to improve,” says Pacers coach Frank Vogel. (PAGE 36)

http://insidesportsillustrated.com/2013/05/29/lebronjamessicover6313/

East scout: LeBron James is 'best post-up player in the league' (2014 article)


The main difference, another East scout said, is James' ability in the post. He began cultivating a post-up game three years ago, and had success with it almost immediately. But this year has been different.

"He is the best post-up player in the league, really," the scout said. "You used to be able to get him to take jumpers in the post, but now he is smarter, he is able to get by you and get himself an easy basket. It's a nightmare. He is that much more efficient."

Indeed, when you break down the numbers, it is clear that James’ post-up game has evolved into the league’s best. First, start with frequency (post-up plays as a percentage of James’ total offensive possessions), going back to the 2010-11 season, his first in Miami:

http://i.imgur.com/228k1j0.png

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/story/2014-01-08/lebron-james-post-up-miami-heat-eastern-conference-scout-stats-efficiency-mvp-nba-championship



After much promise, LeBron thriving in post (2012)


http://i.imgur.com/AREdZki.png


Lebron passing out of the post up? Thunder in game 4 of the 2012 finals saw first hand what happens when you double lebron and he unleashes those darts on ya:oldlol:

http://i.imgur.com/VykltMu.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/KUfkPzm.jpg



▶ Thunder vs. Heat Game 4: LeBron James highlights - 26 points, 12 assists (6.19.12)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkH8W3OGgHQ

[scm5]

Comparing Jordan and Magic in the post is like comparing them offensively. Jordan will look to score first, and it's hard as hell to stop him. Magic will look to make the best possibly play, and it's hard as hell to stop him.

It's not like Jordan didn't know how to pass out of the post, he just had a score first mentality.

They're both two of the best perimeter post players.

[Rolando]

Out of necessity, Magic had his back to the basket for the majority of his time handling the ball. This is because he was always defended by smaller guys. The guy was brilliant that way and, yes, better than Michael at it.

[swagga]

Comparing Jordan and Magic in the post is like comparing them offensively. Jordan will look to score first, and it's hard as hell to stop him. Magic will look to make the best possibly play, and it's hard as hell to stop him.

It's not like Jordan didn't know how to pass out of the post, he just had a score first mentality.

They're both two of the best perimeter post players.

agree, but magic also played to low post, something jordan didn't do out of choice but out of lack of size. A hook is always better than a fadeaway.

[scm5]

agree, but magic also played to low post, something jordan didn't do out of choice but out of lack of size. A hook is always better than a fadeaway.

Yeah, I totally understand. But playing high post and low post both have its advantages. High post players are able to use their speed more. If Jordan spins on you, there's not much defenders can do even if you have a great shot blocking Center on help. Ask Ewing. I know Jordan's famous dunk on Ewing isn't exactly a post move, but it properly shows how physically dominant MJ could be despite being just 6'6.

Jordan playing in the high post is also much easier to get positioning, and his turnaround fadeaway is the best the league has seen. If you fall for any of Jordan's fakes, he's blowing by you or getting a good look at the basket.

[Da_Realist]

Here's a good article about the evolution of MJ's post game before and after his first retirement. It's not a comparison to Magic Johnson, but it does a good job of comparing him to today's swingmen, especially Kobe Bryant who is considered the best-of-the-rest.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1749229-is-michael-jordan-the-greatest-perimeter-post-player-of-all-time

[swagga]

Yeah, I totally understand. But playing high post and low post both have its advantages. High post players are able to use their speed more. If Jordan spins on you, there's not much defenders can do even if you have a great shot blocking Center on help. Ask Ewing. I know Jordan's famous dunk on Ewing isn't exactly a post move, but it properly shows how physically dominant MJ could be despite being just 6'6.

Jordan playing in the high post is also much easier to get positioning, and his turnaround fadeaway is the best the league has seen. If you fall for any of Jordan's fakes, he's blowing by you or getting a good look at the basket.

the pistons don't agree.
the knicks also gave him trouble.

there is usually help on this type of plays. The highlights make us remember the great offensive plays but for each highlight there are 3-4 other results than a direct score. Magic was elite both from the high and the low post, one of the most complete post games ever. He offered his team more post options on offense.

When you use the low post, get doubled and you pass out that is always an open shot because the defender can't recover. When you pass from the high post it depends. Sure the defense can rotate but the low post action will force earlier rotations which will open the defense faster and lead to a better shot than the same situation in the high post. So from an overall offensive perspective lowpost >> highpost.

Height matters alot in passing in the post, i've already said that in another post in this thread. The hardest part of post work is the entry pass (guards today really suck at throwing it). When your PG can post with the ball all the way this opens some truly unique offensive opportunities. The showtime lakers showcased this for more than a decade.

Jordan's high post is elite, no doubt, but his overall post game isn't as complete as it is preached by his fans/stans.

[Dragonyeuw]

i've seen jordan live since the late 80s, I don't need a video to show me was freaking amazing and a much more efficient post player than kobe. But kobe did improve some of his moves and had more fluidity in their execution. Doesn't mean he was a better/more efficient post player.

Where jordan had explosive footwork, kobe had ellegant footwork. Also kobe has more creativity in footwork as he came after jordan and got to study jordan's work.

Again, I don't imply kobe has a better postgame, his footwork is just more natural.

I don't see where MJ in the post was any less fluid or less elegant, whatever that means.

But, lets play this game and say that Kobe has more 'elegant' footwork. MJ had physical advantages and play tendencies that resulted in him not having to resort to the amount of moves Kobe needed to free himself up.

1) MJ, for one, was a more lethal slasher and finisher( not saying that Kobe is a slouch in that area, to be clear) and for that reason alone the slightest head or shoulder fake caused a reaction from the defender. MJ would then use the defender's momentum against them to get them out of position, go the opposite direction and off to the rim. Kobe wasn't the same level of slashing threat and for that reason alone, needed to employ more 'footwork' and/ or dribble moves. MJ, I think we can also agree, had a quicker first step leading to the need for less 'set-up' to get off a shot.

2) MJ, especially as he got older, became more adept at quick strike moves. Get the ball, quick fake, power dribble or two either direction, pull up jumper. This new generation of guard employs 'dribble dribble dribble, wait to see how the defense reacts' offense. MJ was more adept at making the defense react to him and better at creating open shots or at least less 'bad' shots where he has to shoot over 2-3 defenders.

3) MJ, at least from the eye test, got greater vertical and separation on his fadeaway. If you're getting 3 feet off the ground while fading back several feet off either shoulder with the kind of accuracy MJ had from midrange, the need to employ a lot of fancy footwork isn't needed as much.

Having said that, I still don't feel MJ is any less elegant in terms of footwork but that's frankly a very subjective thing in terms of how it 'looks' or appears. Let's just say their footwork among SGs is pretty much unmatched, its splitting hairs between the two of them.

[Da_Realist]

the pistons don't agree.
the knicks also gave him trouble.

there is usually help on this type of plays. The highlights make us remember the great offensive plays but for each highlight there are 3-4 other results than a direct score. Magic was elite both from the high and the low post, one of the most complete post games ever. He offered his team more post options on offense.

When you use the low post, get doubled and you pass out that is always an open shot because the defender can't recover. When you pass from the high post it depends. Sure the defense can rotate but the low post action will force earlier rotations which will open the defense faster and lead to a better shot than the same situation in the high post. So from an overall offensive perspective lowpost >> highpost.

Height matters alot in passing in the post, i've already said that in another post in this thread. The hardest part of post work is the entry pass (guards today really suck at throwing it). When your PG can post with the ball all the way this opens some truly unique offensive opportunities. The showtime lakers showcased this for more than a decade.

Jordan's high post is elite, no doubt, but his overall post game isn't as complete as it is preached by his fans/stans.

Detroit Pistons Joe Dumars (Interview broadcast during 12-25-96 Pistons/Bulls Game):

His game has evolved over the years too, though. He's not about the spectacular play as much as he used to be. He's a little bit more subtle in his movements now. And it's tougher to gear up for that because he's not gonna go out there and do anything that will just 'wow' you every time. He's gonna set you up slowly. He's gonna do what it takes to get the job done. He's very tough to guard now. Probably more so now than he used to be.


NY Knicks 1996 Scouting Report on Michael Jordan
http://oi40.tinypic.com/4r28b4.jpg

Frequent and effective post up player with a left shoulder turn tendency = physically contest his post position at all times and always influence him to his right shoulder in the low post. Will spin away from low post 2X to the baseline. HE WILL KILL US if allowed to catch the ball deep in the low post.

[Dragonyeuw]

Here's a good article about the evolution of MJ's post game before and after his first retirement. It's not a comparison to Magic Johnson, but it does a good job of comparing him to today's swingmen, especially Kobe Bryant who is considered the best-of-the-rest.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1749229-is-michael-jordan-the-greatest-perimeter-post-player-of-all-time

That was a good read.

[sportjames23]

MJ footwork and post moves vids:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAUtrCCKJuo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTmza15uvqI

[Stringer Bell]

How is Kobe's footwork more "elegant" than Jordan's??

[SamuraiSWISH]

How is Kobe's footwork more "elegant" than Jordan's??
He's not. They're basically the same. MJ was more energy efficient, and Kobe was the better ball handler. Ultimately Jordan was more strategic, and created better looks with superior separation from his defenders.

[swagga]

He's not. They're basically the same. MJ was more energy efficient, and Kobe was the better ball handler. Ultimately Jordan was more strategic, and created better looks with superior separation from his defenders.

thank there. that's what I meant with ellegance, kobe could fluidly move with the ball better in the post because his ballhandling was better.
Other than that jordan is a better post player.

[SamuraiSWISH]

thank there. that's what I meant with ellegance, kobe could fluidly move with the ball better in the post because his ballhandling was better.
Other than that jordan is a better post player.
Jordan didn't have to ... He quickly got into his positioning then made his move. Was smarter, made quick strike decision making. Didn't need to over dribble.

Jordan still had fluid good handle, Kobe is better though.

But you said Kobe had better footwork ... it doesn't get better than Mikes footwork. Kobe just replicated the movements.

The best, most unique footwork from a perimeter player in the post that wasn't a blatant imitation of Jordan was Penny.

[Stringer Bell]

he could turn over both shoulders and fadeway ( especially after 1991, that was his go to move)


It's somewhat of a pet peeve of mine when people say Jordan added the fadeaway after his first retirement in 1993. They even said that crap on his own documentary on ESPN Sportscentury. They usually do really good documentaries but saying he "added" the fadeaway from 95' on is just so false.

It had been in his arsenal before the first title, but it definitely became a bigger part for the 2nd and 3rd titles.

If Jordan's fadeaway and post-game was a 10/10 from 1995-98, it was still an excellent 9/10 from 1991-93.

[Round Mound]

Magic Johnson schools Michael Jordan in the post (1991 Finals)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWHkHdEP3qs

:bowdown: