wall&beal vs kyrie&waters

[alexd]

who you got?

[TheReal Kendall]

Wall/Beal

[ralph_i_el]

Wall/Beal

damn shame Bron Bron wasn't born in DC lol


*KD2016*

[hawksdogsbraves]

Wall/Beal and it's not close

[IamSofaKing]

Beal and Wall but DeRozan/Lowry over them

[Noyze]

Wall & Beal because they actually play defense.

[Cold soul]

Wall & Beal and it isn't even close.

[RedBlackAttack]

Wall/Beal and it's not close
Silliness. :oldlol:

Not sure if this really warrants two threads at the top of the forum, though.

[bluechox2]

fix that.....wall/beal vs kyrie/waiters/lebron/love

[qrich]

Wall & Beal and it isn't even close.

This.


Wall alone is a better defender than Irving and Waiters combined. Plus, I can't see JR Smith Part Duex being considered among the leagues elite back court duos.

Give me Klay/Curry, Lowry/Ross, Bleds/Dragic, Paul/JJ and Holiday/EJ over them tho

[RedBlackAttack]

fix that.....wall/beal vs kyrie/waiters/lebron/love
I thought the Wizards had one of the better fitting lineups in the whole league last year. Not the most talent, but a really nice mix of playmakers, shooters and versatile bigs.

Wall-Beal-Ariza-Gortat-Nene

That Gortat-Nene combination gave us fits every time we played them.

[RedBlackAttack]

This.


Wall alone is a better defender than Irving and Waiters combined.
Kyrie looked pretty damn good defensively in FIBA play. We'll see if that carries over. There's no reason he can't be a capable defender.

As for Waiters, he was arguably the team's best man defender on the perimeter last season. For a guy in his second year, he's progressing nicely on that end.


And, Kyrie has averaged 22 points on 50% from the field with 6 assists against Wall's supposed supreme defense over his career when they've matched up head-to-head. Wall has put up 20 on 42% shooting, while playing over 6 more minutes per game. Nice assist numbers, though... also much better shooters, fwiw.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=irvinky01&p2=walljo01

I've never gotten the vibe that Wall's defense has given Kyrie any issues. People automatically assume that athletic/long guys are these lockdown defenders. Wall is a pretty good defensive PG... nothing all that special.

[qrich]

And Kyrie turned it over over 3 times a game, much more in less time, while, Wall averaged a steal per giveaway. Wall also averaged 4 more dimes, with less giveaways. As far as FIBA goes, Wall would have terrorized opposition guards, not just been good.

Wall also has won 4 of the match-ups.

[DukeDelonte13]

I think Kyrie will be better than Wall this year, but Wall was better than Kyrie last season.


Dion has much better PG skills and can break down defenses.

Beal is a better shooter and rebounder.

They are both really close but everyone loves to dump on Cleveland so "Beal is clearly better" :rolleyes:

[RedBlackAttack]

And Kyrie turned it over over 3 times a game, much more in less time, while, Wall averaged a steal per giveaway. Wall also averaged 4 more dimes, with less giveaways.

Wall also has won 4 of the match-ups.

Wall also had the better team around him. Also keep in mind that these numbers (including the W-L record), includes a game where Kyrie played under 10 minutes before getting injured. If you exclude that game, the series is actually 3-2.

Kyrie has shot almost 48% from three playing against Wall.

We're talking 50/48/94 splits. Wall's at 42/33/83. That's a little more of a disparity than 2.8 turnovers in 37 minutes as compared to 3.2 turnovers in 31 minutes.

[G-train]

If Irving/Waiters were as good as some would have you believe, the Cav's would have been a bit better than the rabble of last season.

[Cocaine80s]

Beal and Waiters.


PGs are overrated

[qrich]

Wall also had the better team around him. Also keep in mind that these numbers (including the W-L record), includes a game where Kyrie played under 10 minutes before getting injured. If you exclude that game, the series is actually 3-2.

Kyrie has shot almost 48% from three playing against Wall.

We're talking 50/48/94 splits. Wall's at 42/33/83. That's a little more of a disparity than 2.8 turnovers in 37 minutes as compared to 3.2 turnovers in 31 minutes.

Not a team that was much better, by any means.

And no, it really isn't. Wall gave the Cavs less opportunities for easy, transition buckets, while, giving his team 8-12 points more on dimes. Add the 2 steal difference as well, where he gives his team a transition opportunity and takes away offensive possessions, to boot.


If Irving/Waiters were as good as some would have you believe, the Cav's would have been a bit better than the rabble of last season.

Basically, as well.

[Cocaine80s]

Not a team that was much better, by any means.

Wizards were way better than the Cavs last year dude


One team almost made the ecf while the other was in the lottery

[RedBlackAttack]

Not a team that was much better, by any means.

And no, it really isn't. Wall gave the Cavs less opportunities for easy, transition buckets, while, giving his team 8-12 points more on dimes. Add the 2 steal difference as well, where he gives his team a transition opportunity and takes away offensive possessions, to boot.



Basically, as well.
So now we're going to act like Ariza/Gortat/Nene isn't a damn good starting frontline, not to mention veteran leadership (Cavs had the youngest regular rotation in the league last season).

And, again... if you take away the game where Kyrie played just a few minutes, the numbers aren't even close. He'd be averaging like 27 points on 50/48/97 with 7 assists. The numbers really aren't particularly close. That's totally insane efficiency. :oldlol:

But, yeah... the additional 0.7 turnovers per 36 that he averages in those games make all the difference. I do wonder how Kyrie scores so easily against Wall's impenetrable defense, though.

Funny, Kyrie averaged far less turnovers per game last year. When it comes to the season statistics, no one wants to talk about turnovers. However, in the h2h matchups, that's the only thing that matters.

Funny how that works.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Kyrie / Waiters because of LeBron. Featuring Love.

[qrich]

So now we're going to act like Ariza/Gortat/Nene isn't a damn good starting frontline, not to mention veteran leadership (Cavs had the youngest regular rotation in the league last season).

And, again... if you take away the game where Kyrie played just a few minutes, the numbers aren't even close. He'd be averaging like 27 points on 50/48/97 with 7 assists. The numbers really aren't particularly close. That's totally insane efficiency. :oldlol:

But, yeah... the additional 0.7 turnovers per 36 that he averages in those games make all the difference. I do wonder how Kyrie scores so easily against Wall's impenetrable defense, though.

Funny, Kyrie averaged far less turnovers per game last year. When it comes to the season statistics, no one wants to talk about turnovers. However, in the h2h matchups, that's the only thing that matters.

Funny how that works.

Where'd I say it wasn't good? I said weren't "that much better". Compared to the top overall pick, the oh-so great Thompson, Andy V, Spencer Hawes, & Deng, guys who Cav fans wouldn't/didn't shut up about, no it isn't that much better.

Taking that single game away, pops up his assists to just under 7, but also thrusts his turnovers to around 3.8, as well. But hey, forcing turnovers isn't a defensive asset, I guess.

He shot a higher percentage, as a player that is considered to be better as a scorer should, especially when they "have no competent" teammates, as is the statement. Wall focuses more on playing inside a team concept, on both ends of the floor, and isn't known for his scoring, as he does a lot well.

Yes, he averaged whopping 0.9 less turnovers, in a minute less, but also averaged 2.7 less assists. The assist-per-turnover difference 2.45 v 2.25.

Funny how Wall shot around the same from the field, when it comes to season statistics, no one wants to talk about field goal percentage. However, in H2H matchups, that's all that matters.

[El Gato Negro]

I love how people keep making assumptions about cavs players without having a clue what they are talking about :roll: i watched the cavs play 2 games last year im a expert!

[Milbuck]

I love how people keep making assumptions about cavs players without having a clue what they are talking about :roll:
Care to elaborate?

[ROCSteady]

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2013/1017/nba_a_wall-beal_mb_576x324.jpg

JW: * laughing* "Ayo BB, someone on ISH actually started a thread on comparing us vs Kyrie and Waiters."

BB: *surprised* "Well, my n!gga, mental health is a serious pandemic in America these days"

[ralph_i_el]

Wizards also had Nene and Gortat who are legit all around bigs. You have to give Kyrie credit for playing with such a bum team around him

[RedBlackAttack]

Where'd I say it wasn't good? I said weren't "that much better". Compared to the top overall pick, the oh-so great Thompson, Andy V, Spencer Hawes, & Deng, guys who Cav fans wouldn't/didn't shut up about, no it isn't that much better.

Let me address this point first...

Deng was awful in his stint in Cleveland. I was pretty open about that. And, he only played 40 games for the Cavs, most of which was spent protecting his body for his impending free agency and constantly throwing the team under the bus to the media.

His tenure was awful. When Deng wasn't out there moping and limping around, the other 42 games were stated by a combination of Alonzo Gee and Earl Clark. I wonder... is Earl Clark still in the league?


Hawes played 25 games for the Cavs, where -- for the first time since Kyrie was drafted -- he actually had a competent outside shooter next to him in the lineup. However, when it came to defense and rebounding? Different story all together.

There's a good reason the Cavs made no attempt to re-sign either of these guys.


The "oh-so great Tristan Thompson" had an admittedly down year last season. He didn't progress the way I had hoped. However, when having to defend him against attacks that he's a "scrub" and "useless," I will every time. He's just 23 and he's better suited in his coming role than he was in his previous one.

That doesn't mean he was effective as a starter last season at PF. He was not. Having him and Varejao starting for the majority of the season essentially killed any notion of floor spacing and crowded the lane for our talented slashers (Kyrie/Dion)... that crowded lane was made even worse by having the wing position occupied by non-shooters Clark/Gee/Deng over the course of the year.

Then you had the Bynum disaster, wherein we spent the first 30 games trying to make a guy who is now out of the league the focal point of our offensive sets. To say it was a disaster is being kind.

Actually, following Bynum's departure, we went from a team 12 games under .500 to essentially a .500 team for the rest of the season.

On top of all these issues with personnel, you had the Mike Brown offense at work. I'm not the guy who kills MB at every turn, but he did not handle this situation well at all and the players did not respond to his style of coaching.

Couple that with the youngest, least experienced rotation in the NBA? You've got trouble. I was surprised we won 33 games, to be completely honest. That was actually +12 from the year before, one of the best W-L turnarounds in the entire league.


Taking that single game away, pops up his assists to just under 7, but also thrusts his turnovers to around 3.8, as well. But hey, forcing turnovers isn't a defensive asset, I guess.

He shot a higher percentage, as a player that is considered to be better as a scorer should, especially when they "have no competent" teammates, as is the statement. Wall focuses more on playing inside a team concept, on both ends of the floor, and isn't known for his scoring, as he does a lot well.

Let's just put the numbers out there and people can come to their own conclusions. No need to parse our words, here.

In the five full games that both guys played the over the course of their respective careers, here are the numbers:


Kyrie Irving
25.4 points
FG: 50.0% (42-84)
3PT: 48.3% (10-21)
FT: 94.4% (33-35)
6.8 assists
2.6 rebounds
3.8 turnovers
in 34.6 minutes (173:03 court time)


John Wall
20.2 points
FG: 42.2%(35-83)
3PT: 33.3% (5-15)
FT: 81.2% (26-32)
9.2 assists
3.8 rebounds
2.2 turnovers
in 37.6 minutes (188:30 court time)


They're two different players with two different skillsets, but we both know that 25+ points on 50/48/94 on under 35 minutes a game is totally nuts. Toss in the 6.8 assists and those are LeBron-like numbers.


The funny part about this whole thing is that I haven't said one time who I thought was better last year or who I think is the better player. My response was to those who acted like it was/is a laughable endeavor to even make the comparison.

And, the reason I went straight to the head-to-head numbers was in response to your post that Wall's defense "alone" is clearly what separated him from Irving and Waiters. First of all, Waiters is not a bad defender. Secondly, Kyrie has made it a habit of torching Wall.


Do I think that Wall had a better all-around season last year? Yeah, probably. Do I think Irving is the better player going forward? No doubt in my mind.

Do I think anyone who honestly believes, even based on last year, that these guys weren't close is insane? Yeah, pretty much.


I guess we'll find out soon enough.

[Kingwillball]

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2013/1017/nba_a_wall-beal_mb_576x324.jpg

JW: * laughing* "Ayo BB, someone on ISH actually started a thread on comparing us vs Kyrie and Waiters."

BB: *surprised* "Well, my n!gga, mental health is a serious pandemic in America these days"


I think end of season this should be revisited. I would definitely take Irving over Wall and I think Waiters is going to have a breakout year under Lebrons Wing. He already stated that Waiters can be Cavs version of Dwade.

[BrownEye007]

Kyrie and Waiters, though it is close.

[rhowen4]

Kyrie and waiters have more individual talent

Wall and beal are much more complementary

Overall wall and beal bring more to a team as pg/sg

But: I'd want kyrie and waiters on the condition that waiters would be down to play as 6th man

This is all in a vacuum of course, the rest of the team matters. Namely wall's lack of shooting changes this

[qrich]

Let me address this point first...

Deng was awful in his stint in Cleveland. I was pretty open about that. And, he only played 40 games for the Cavs, most of which was spent protecting his body for his impending free agency and constantly throwing the team under the bus to the media.

His tenure was awful. When Deng wasn't out there moping and limping around, the other 42 games were stated by a combination of Alonzo Gee and Earl Clark. I wonder... is Earl Clark still in the league?


Hawes played 25 games for the Cavs, where -- for the first time since Kyrie was drafted -- he actually had a competent outside shooter next to him in the lineup. However, when it came to defense and rebounding? Different story all together.

There's a good reason the Cavs made no attempt to re-sign either of these guys.


The "oh-so great Tristan Thompson" had an admittedly down year last season. He didn't progress the way I had hoped. However, when having to defend him against attacks that he's a "scrub" and "useless," I will every time. He's just 23 and he's better suited in his coming role than he was in his previous one.

That doesn't mean he was effective as a starter last season at PF. He was not. Having him and Varejao starting for the majority of the season essentially killed any notion of floor spacing and crowded the lane for our talented slashers (Kyrie/Dion)... that crowded lane was made even worse by having the wing position occupied by non-shooters Clark/Gee/Deng over the course of the year.

Then you had the Bynum disaster, wherein we spent the first 30 games trying to make a guy who is now out of the league the focal point of our offensive sets. To say it was a disaster is being kind.

Actually, following Bynum's departure, we went from a team 12 games under .500 to essentially a .500 team for the rest of the season.

On top of all these issues with personnel, you had the Mike Brown offense at work. I'm not the guy who kills MB at every turn, but he did not handle this situation well at all and the players did not respond to his style of coaching.

Couple that with the youngest, least experienced rotation in the NBA? You've got trouble. I was surprised we won 33 games, to be completely honest. That was actually +12 from the year before, one of the best W-L turnarounds in the entire league.

Yet, majority of Cav fans wouldn't shut up about those players, but, you know, they are all vastly inferior. :rolleyes:

Then again, Cav fans think shit like Andy V and Waiters is enough for Jordan, and then, you actually suggested Clippers would deal Jordan for a TPE :roll:



Let's just put the numbers out there and people can come to their own conclusions. No need to parse our words, here.

In the five full games that both guys played the over the course of their respective careers, here are the numbers:


Kyrie Irving
25.4 points
FG: 50.0% (42-84)
3PT: 48.3% (10-21)
FT: 94.4% (33-35)
6.8 assists
2.6 rebounds
3.8 turnovers
in 34.6 minutes (173:03 court time)


John Wall
20.2 points
FG: 42.2%(35-83)
3PT: 33.3% (5-15)
FT: 81.2% (26-32)
9.2 assists
3.8 rebounds
2.2 turnovers
in 37.6 minutes (188:30 court time)


They're two different players with two different skillsets, but we both know that 25+ points on 50/48/94 on under 35 minutes a game is totally nuts. Toss in the 6.8 assists and those are LeBron-like numbers.


The funny part about this whole thing is that I haven't said one time who I thought was better last year or who I think is the better player. My response was to those who acted like it was/is a laughable endeavor to even make the comparison.

And, the reason I went straight to the head-to-head numbers was in response to your post that Wall's defense "alone" is clearly what separated him from Irving and Waiters. First of all, Waiters is not a bad defender. Secondly, Kyrie has made it a habit of torching Wall.


Do I think that Wall had a better all-around season last year? Yeah, probably. Do I think Irving is the better player going forward? No doubt in my mind.

Do I think anyone who honestly believes, even based on last year, that these guys weren't close is insane? Yeah, pretty much.


I guess we'll find out soon enough.

Amare torched Brand a few times, during the Phoenix v LAC days, I guess Brand was a shitty defender and that aspect should not be brought up when comparing the two. Why ignore the steals per as well, where Wall was at 2.8 iirc, and Kyrie at 1?

Also, if Waiters is considered a good defender, so is JJ.

[Denitron]

Wall & Beal

[andremiller07]

Right now to me Wall is the best player out of the 4 so for that reason I'm going for Washington, in general I'm not much of a believer in either Beal and Waiters both solid good (clutch as well) players but I don't see the hype they are solid pushing above average SG's.

To me right now Gerald Henderson/Lance/Afflalo/Wes and these kind of guys are way better all round players than Waiters and Beal

[D-FENS]

Wall & Beal and it isn't even close.

I agree. Waiters is absolute trash, and Irving can't play defense, like the point guard version of James Harden

[DukeDelonte13]

I agree. Waiters is absolute trash, and Irving can't play defense, like the point guard version of James Harden


Do you even watch the NBA?

[hawksdogsbraves]

Wall also had the better team around him. Also keep in mind that these numbers (including the W-L record), includes a game where Kyrie played under 10 minutes before getting injured. If you exclude that game, the series is actually 3-2.

Kyrie has shot almost 48% from three playing against Wall.

We're talking 50/48/94 splits. Wall's at 42/33/83. That's a little more of a disparity than 2.8 turnovers in 37 minutes as compared to 3.2 turnovers in 31 minutes.

Their head to head numbers don't mean anything, that sample size is too small.

[artificial]

I initially wanted to say Wall & Beal. I'm a fan of Kyrie and would take him over Wall any day. Don't get me wrong, in actual terms of skill I think they are fairly close, but I just think Kyrie is a better playmaker. On the other hand I hate Waiters and his style of play, while I like Beal a lot.

So I checked up some stats, and after looking at some numbers, especially the stat comparison between Beal and Waiters, and it's closer that I would have thought.

In conclusion, whichever backcourt you pick it's not "obvious" or "by a landslide".

And about the whole reason this thread started, dumbass Waiters had no need to address Beal's comments. No one was talking to the bench player. Yes, I'm biased.

[El Gato Negro]

I initially wanted to say Wall & Beal. I'm a fan of Kyrie and would take him over Wall any day. Don't get me wrong, in actual terms of skill I think they are fairly close, but I just think Kyrie is a better playmaker. On the other hand I hate Waiters and his style of play, while I like Beal a lot.

So I checked up some stats, and after looking at some numbers, especially the stat comparison between Beal and Waiters, and it's closer that I would have thought.

In conclusion, whichever backcourt you pick it's not "obvious" or "by a landslide".

And about the whole reason this thread started, dumbass Waiters had no need to address Beal's comments. No one was talking to the bench player. Yes, I'm biased.
Best post so far :applause: the part about obvious and by a landslide is the correct answer.

[DukeDelonte13]

I initially wanted to say Wall & Beal. I'm a fan of Kyrie and would take him over Wall any day. Don't get me wrong, in actual terms of skill I think they are fairly close, but I just think Kyrie is a better playmaker. On the other hand I hate Waiters and his style of play, while I like Beal a lot.

So I checked up some stats, and after looking at some numbers, especially the stat comparison between Beal and Waiters, and it's closer that I would have thought.

In conclusion, whichever backcourt you pick it's not "obvious" or "by a landslide".

And about the whole reason this thread started, dumbass Waiters had no need to address Beal's comments. No one was talking to the bench player. Yes, I'm biased.


It's not like Dion heard that and just wanted to put it out there.. He was asked by a reporter what did he think of that comment. Had Dion and/or Kyrie said that and they asked Wall or Beal, i'm sure it would have been the same thing.

Dion's not the type of guy to say, "Yeah, Bradley Beal is better than me" :oldlol:

[NuggetsFan]

Best post so far :applause: the part about obvious and by a landslide is the correct answer.

The best post isn't the one that suggest Kyrie is a better playmaker than Wall. Irving has like 12 doubles doubles for his career, John Wall had 29 last year. 26 his rookie season.

8.3, 8, 7.6, 8.8 vs 5.4, 5.9, 6.1 is how there assists shake out. Wall kills Irving in the eye test too. Irving is deff more of a scoring guard. No idea how somebody could think Irving was the better playmaker. You can forget the shitty team thing too considering most NBA players have inflated numbers playing on lottery teams :confusedshrug:

Wall/Beal for me but I think Irving is pretty overrated. Already made the playoffs and had better individual seasons. Don't see any other reason to go in the other direction. Now Irving is in competition for being the 2nd best player on his team going forward, Waiters what like 4th? 5th? Hard to compare them given what Wall/Beal are going to be asked to do.

[DukeDelonte13]

The best post isn't the one that suggest Kyrie is a better playmaker than Wall. Irving has like 12 doubles doubles for his career, John Wall had 29 last year. 26 his rookie season.

8.3, 8, 7.6, 8.8 vs 5.4, 5.9, 6.1 is how there assists shake out. Wall kills Irving in the eye test too. Irving is deff more of a scoring guard. No idea how somebody could think Irving was the better playmaker. You can forget the shitty team thing too considering most NBA players have inflated numbers playing on lottery teams :confusedshrug:

Wall/Beal for me but I think Irving is pretty overrated. Already made the playoffs and had better individual seasons. Don't see any other reason to go in the other direction. Now Irving is in competition for being the 2nd best player on his team going forward, Waiters what like 4th? 5th? Hard to compare them given what Wall/Beal are going to be asked to do.


What about last year? Dion was either the number one guy on offense or the number two depending on if Kyrie was in or not.

[NuggetsFan]

What about last year? Dion was either the number one guy on offense or the number two depending on if Kyrie was in or not.

Yeah last year was fine. Beal was better than Waiters and Wall was better than Kyrie. The Wizards had a better roster but obviously Wall/Beal were a huge part in them winning 44 games which makes there seasons that much better in comparisons to Waiters/Irving. I don't think it was by an absurd amount anything.

Going forward I don't see how you compare them for the first year or two until things shake out. Cleveland is stacked. LeBron than Love/Irving. Beal would be in the exact same situation if they swapped place but the fact is he'll have a bigger role next season, more defensive attention while Waiters just gets to play off 3 other All-Stars. Wall is the LeBron of the Wizards, Irving gets to play off LeBron/Love.

[Cocaine80s]

Head to head stats make no sense because according to that logic Kyrie>Westbrook.

some guys just play better against the other, doesnt always mean theyre better

[NattyPButter]

2 on 2...I take Kyrie and Waiters. Wall and Beal can't shoot for nothing when they have someone in their face. A lot easy for Wall and Beal to talk shit when they had Ariza, Nene, and Gortat while Cavs had Alonzo Gee, Thompson, and Spencer Hawes or Tyler Zeller playing center. If you had them switch teams I bet Kyrie and Waiters would had done much better with the sqaud Wall and Beal was running with.

[El Gato Negro]

What about last year? Dion was either the number one guy on offense or the number two depending on if Kyrie was in or not.
Wouldn't waste my time talking to nugs fan. he has been a cavs hater since they won the lottery this last year. hell he prolly watched 2 cavs games total last year.

[RedBlackAttack]

Head to head stats make no sense because according to that logic Kyrie>Westbrook.

some guys just play better against the other, doesnt always mean theyre better
They make perfect sense when someone is trying to make an argument that one is so much better due simply to defense. I'm sorry, but you don't average 25+ on 50/48/94 with 7 assists on a great defender, even over a five game sampling. Wall's defense is overrated. Hell, Westbrook's defense is overrated, too... for the same reason. He's long and athletic, so people automatically assume he's a lockdown defender.

Neither are special players defensively.