Lebron's Plus/Minus Declines Significantly When Playing Alongside Talent

[3ball]

It's really interesting because Lebron did not maintain his Cleveland plus/minus levels when he played alongside greater talent in Miami.

Lebron was all they had in Cleveland, and his plus/minus figures were understandably high since the bottom fell out when he left the floor - for example, Lebron had a +871 plus/minus in 2009, so Cleveland was 871 points better when he was on the floor that year.

But when he went to Miami, his plus/minus was only 621, 474, 705 and 405 in 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2014, respectively...

So clearly, when playing with talent and other capable play-creators, Lebron can't find a way to add the same value as he does when playing with all stiffs.

Contrast that to the great Michael Jordan... He registered a +980 plus/minus in 1996, and another +817 in 1997, showing that he CAN find a way to maintain his value-add when playing with talent and other capable play-creators.

This contrast tells you everything you need to know about the difference in true versatility of each player's game.... Lebron's versatility works best on paper, but in reality he can't maintain his production while playing in whatever fashion (off-ball) allows talented teammates to play to their strengths - so since he can't maintain his production playing entirely off-ball, he simply doesn't play off-ball enough, which prevents talented teammates from playing to their strengths and hurts Lebron's ability to maintain his value-add when playing alongside them (talent).

Otoh, Jordan's true versatility allowed him to maintain his value-add while playing in whatever fashion allowed teammates to play to their strengths, which is why his value-add (plus/minus) did not drop off when playing alongside good players - his record +980 plus/minus in 1996 proves that.

Another shoulder shrug, because yet another stat proves Jordan is GOAT.. :confusedshrug:
.

[Smoke117]

What is the point of this...I mean other than to deepthroat (throat anyway) Jordan's tiny member?

[buddha]

only kids 21 and under believe LeBron is better than MJ.

[RRR3]

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that most of us here don't already know Jordan was better than LeBron. If you can rectify this, it would probably keep you from feeling the need to spam the board with your agenda-fueled threads.

[iamgine]

It's really interesting because Lebron did not maintain his Cleveland plus/minus levels when he played alongside greater talent in Miami.

Lebron was all they had in Cleveland, and his plus/minus figures were understandably high since the bottom fell out when he left the floor - for example, Lebron had a +871 plus/minus in 2009, so Cleveland was 871 points better when he was on the floor that year.

But when he went to Miami, his plus/minus was only 621, 474, 705 and 405 in 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2014, respectively...

So clearly, when playing with talent and other capable play-creators, Lebron can't find a way to add the same value as he does when playing with all stiffs.

Contrast that to the great Michael Jordan... He registered a +980 plus/minus in 1996, and another +817 in 1997, showing that he CAN find a way to maintain his value-add when playing with talent and other capable play-creators.

This contrast tells you everything you need to know about the difference in true versatility of each player's game.... Lebron's versatility works best on paper, but in reality he can't maintain his production while playing in whatever fashion (off-ball) allows teammates to play to their strengths - so since he can't maintain his production playing entirely off-ball, he doesn't, which prevents his team from being as good as they could be... His inability to be the catalyst that can adapt to any situation hurts his ability to maintain his value-add (plus/minus) when playing alongside talent...

Otoh, Jordan's true versatility allowed him to maintain his value-add while playing in whatever fashion allowed teammates to play to their strengths, which is why his value-add (plus/minus) did not drop off when playing alongside good players - his record +980 plus/minus in 1996 proves that.

Another shoulder shrug, because yet another stat proves Jordan is GOAT.. :confusedshrug:
.
Misleading argument. Cleveland and Bulls are the same in how both of them are built around Lebron and Jordan. If Jordan moved to another team that doesn't specifically build around him, his +- would drop too.

[3ball]

specifically build around him



Miami was built around LEbron... bosh turned into a floor-spreader for him and Wade had to play off-ball a ton.

[Warfan]

only kids 21 and under believe LeBron is better than MJ.

I truly think OP believes bron is as good as mj. There's no way he can constantly compare the two if he didnt believe bron was at least on mj's level. No one seriously says lebron is better or even on mj's level. Yet OP still continues to belabour the same point that no one even disagrees with.

[3ball]

spam the board with your agenda-fueled threads.


Meh... when Lebron's "high efficiency pursuit" approach to the game and his team got exploited and exposed in the 2014 Finals, it was something that I had predicted all season...

Nonetheless, the media and Lebron fans shoved it down my throat that he was on MJ's level and would 3-peat to prove it... So they deserve to have their nose rubbed in it.

And now we have more data from the 90's and 80's... invariably, it only provides further proof... :confusedshrug:

Don't worry, once the season starts, I'll shift my focus to Kobe and Durant... :banana:

[Smoke117]

I truly think OP believes bron is as good as mj. There's no way he can constantly compare the two if he didnt believe bron was at least on mj's level. No one seriously says lebron is better or even on mj's level. Yet OP still continues to beleabour the same point that no one disagrees with.


Uh...he is. Jordan is so good now apparently no one is on his level? He's just a man and a really good player. If you truly believe this you are a bigger ****ing idiot than he is. Is Jordan better? Of course. Is he so much better that he's on a different tier? Of Course not.

[LBJ 23]

I truly think OP believes bron is as good as mj. There's no way he can constantly compare the two if he didnt believe bron was at least on mj's level. No one seriously says lebron is better or even on mj's level. Yet OP still continues to belabour the same point that no one even disagrees with.


Yep, it's like OP deep down thinks Lebron is as good as Jordan and that's why he's spamming the board with all these comparison threads and posts. It's like he desperately tries to convince himself and others(there is no need, majority of non troll posters will tell you MJ is the GOAT).

I mean other than Dragic and his alts(who's trolling anyway), who is really saying that Lebron is as good as Jordan or even better?

[Warfan]

Uh...he is. Jordan is so good now apparently no one is on his level? He's just a man and a really good player. If you truly believe this you are a bigger ****ing idiot than he is. Is Jordan better? Of course. Is he so much better that he's on a different tier? Of Course not.

I didnt say no one is on his level, wilt/russell/kareem are imo. Bron's a tier below those guys (which is still great of course), they're not far and away superior to him at all but id disagree if you want to put him up there with mike.

[iamgine]

Miami was built around LEbron... bosh turned into a floor-spreader for him and Wade had to play off-ball a ton.
To a much less degree than Cleveland as evidenced by Lebron's number drop.

[moe94]

Uh...he is. Jordan is so good now apparently no one is on his level? He's just a man and a really good player. If you truly believe this you are a bigger ****ing idiot than he is. Is Jordan better? Of course. Is he so much better that he's on a different tier? Of Course not.

Michael Jordan is the greatest human being of all time. Let's be real, he's the greatest being of all time, real or fictional.

[Smoke117]

Michael Jordan is the greatest human being of all time. Let's be real, he's the greatest being of all time, real or fictional.

The biggest fukcing asshole of all time, maybe. I really don't get all this hero worship for a guy who is complete and utter sewer waste as a human being.

[moe94]

The biggest fukcing asshole of all time, maybe. I really don't get all this hero worship for a guy who is complete and utter sewer waste as a human being.

Michael Jordan did you dirty like Chamillionaire or what? :kobe:

[3ball]

The biggest fukcing asshole of all time, maybe..... complete and utter sewer waste as a human being.


You have to be able to appreciate the mentality he has and laugh at the stories of Jordan crushing fools and being a ****.. :oldlol:




I really don't get all this hero worship


The hero worship comes from the basketball (for those that don't also appreciate his overall approach to life).

You have to appreciate a guy that could chew up a defender in literally 1.5 seconds so that teammates didn't have to wait - they knew the move was coming right away when he caught it, so they anticipated better and could get in a rhythm playing off him.

and of course with Jordan scoring so quickly, they had all the time in the world to get theirs.. So many times at the of end games, you'd be like "how did he get 47 points?... i didn't notice it"... because of plays like these..

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/9fd33210ffbcdbe117830fd26bef5f34.gif

[Smoke117]

You have to be able to appreciate the mentality he has and laugh at the stories of Jordan crushing fools and being a ****.. :oldlol:


The hero worship comes from the basketball (for those that don't also appreciate his overall approach to life).

You have to appreciate a guy that could chew up a defender in literally 1.5 seconds so that teammates didn't have to wait - they knew when he caught it that the move was coming right away and so they could anticipate better and get in a rhythm playing off him.

and of course with Jordan scoring so quickly, they had all the time in the world to get theirs.. So many times at the end of another big scoring night from Jordan, you'd be like "how did he get 47 points?
... i didn't notice it"... because of plays like these..

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/9fd33210ffbcdbe117830fd26bef5f34.gif

That's good...at least you admit your thread was agenda driven.

[3ball]

That's good...at least you admit your thread was agenda driven.
Not at all... Just pointing out the fact that Lebron's plus/minus declines when playing alongside talent, while Jordan's didn't.

[SamuraiSWISH]

The biggest fukcing asshole of all time, maybe. I really don't get all this hero worship for a guy who is complete and utter sewer waste as a human being.
Because he didn't take a picture with Chamillionaire?

:biggums:

[Smoke117]

Not at all... Just pointing out the fact that Lebron's plus/minus declines when playing alongside talent, while Jordan's didn't.

What exactly do you think a +/- is going to look like when you take the best player from a 72 win and 69 win team? It's not mind blowing that Jordan and Pippen have the best +/- when they were on the two best teams record wise since this stat was kept. :rolleyes: You think maybe when they went out (while one was still on the court) that maybe the team did alright still because it was a great team in general? They did ****ing win 72 and 69 games, right?

[Marchesk]

But what's Kevin Love's +/- on the Timberwolves?

[3ball]

What exactly do you think a +/- is going to look like when you take the best player from a 72 win and 69 win team? It's not mind blowing that Jordan and Pippen have the best +/- when they were on the two best teams record wise since this stat was kept. :rolleyes: You think maybe when they went out (while one was still on the court) that maybe the team did alright still because it was a great team in general? They did ****ing win 72 and 69 games, right?
Regardless of how many games the team won, when Jordan wasn't on the floor, his team was 980 points worse.

Lebron won 66 games in 2013, but his team was only 720 points better with him on the floor.... Not only is this way less than Jordan's 980, but it's way less than Lebron's own +870 that he registered with his other 66-win team that he had in 2009 with Cleveland!

There is no need to try to twist the numbers here... they are what they are... the only difference in Lebron's 66-win teams was that his Cleveland team had less talent.

[Smoke117]

Regardless of how many games the team won, when Jordan wasn't on the floor, his team was 980 points worse.

Lebron won 66 games in 2013, but his team was only 720 points better with him on the floor.... Not only is this way less than Jordan's 980, but it's way less than Lebron's own +870 that he registered with his other 66-win team that he had in 2009 with Cleveland!

There is no need to try to twist the numbers here... they are what they are... the only difference in Lebron's 66-win teams was that his Cleveland team had less talent.

Why would I want to twist numbers? I'm not a Lebron fan...I could give a flying **** about him.

[ArbitraryWater]

Because he didn't take a picture with Chamillionaire?

:biggums:

Dude has all kinds of human garbage stories about him :biggums:

For one, straight out asked a fan if he can bone his wife :biggums:

[poido123]

Dude has all kinds of human garbage stories about him :biggums:

For one, straight out asked a fan if he can bone his wife :biggums:


Why do you care about MJ's personal life?

You appreciate basketball right? I mean, that's why we appreciate MJ...

[LBJ 23]

You appreciate basketball right? I mean, that's why we appreciate MJ...

Define this. Basketball as just the way player plays the game?

[poido123]

Define this. Basketball as just the way player plays the game?


It's great to be good role models and if basketball players want to be squeaky clean off the court, I'm all for it.

However, athletes should not be judged on off court issues.

Not any of my concern.

Only thing basketball players should be held accountable for is how they went about playing basketball and things related to basketball.

[lilteapot]

OP's Jordan nut hugging is despicable

[LBJ 23]

It's great to be good role models and if basketball players want to be squeaky clean off the court, I'm all for it.

However, athletes should not be judged on off court issues.

Not any of my concern.

Only thing basketball players should be held accountable for is how they went about playing basketball and things related to basketball.


Well thought out answer

[dh144498]

It's great to be good role models and if basketball players want to be squeaky clean off the court, I'm all for it.

However, athletes should not be judged on off court issues.

Not any of my concern.

Only thing basketball players should be held accountable for is how they went about playing basketball and things related to basketball.

:applause:

i like how all the lebron fans cannot stick to any issues basketball related when it comes to MJ because they literally have 0 arguments for lebron being superior, so they digress and start talking about his off-court issues with hopes of convincing reasonable people that MJ is now a sh1tty basketball player because he tried to bone someone else's wife.
:oldlol:

[ralph_i_el]

Uh...he is. Jordan is so good now apparently no one is on his level? He's just a man and a really good player. If you truly believe this you are a bigger ****ing idiot than he is. Is Jordan better? Of course. Is he so much better that he's on a different tier? Of Course not.

Thank you.

Plenty of players have been comparable to jordan. Injuries/bad luck/bad situations can keep anyone out of the GOAT conversation, no matter how good they are.

Imagine if Jordan had Tmac knee problems and Tmac didn't :confusedshrug:
Imagine if Kobe hadn't been traded by the hornets :confusedshrug:
Imagine if Wilt was born in 1980 :confusedshrug:
Imagine if Bron was from NYC :confusedshrug:
Imagine if Len Bias hadn't done drugs :confusedshrug:
Imagine if Larry Bird had quit college basketball for good after Indiana didn't work out:confusedshrug:

Stuff that has nothing to do with on court performance can have huge impact on how careers play out.

[riseagainst]

Thank you.

Plenty of players have been comparable to jordan. Injuries/bad luck/bad situations can keep anyone out of the GOAT conversation, no matter how good they are.

Imagine if Jordan had Tmac knee problems and Tmac didn't :confusedshrug:
Imagine if Kobe hadn't been traded by the hornets :confusedshrug:
Imagine if Wilt was born in 1980 :confusedshrug:
Imagine if Bron was from NYC :confusedshrug:
Imagine if Len Bias hadn't done drugs :confusedshrug:
Imagine if Larry Bird had quit college basketball for good after Indiana didn't work out:confusedshrug:

Stuff that has nothing to do with on court performance can have huge impact on how careers play out.


didn't MJ break his foot? Then came back and dropped 63 points on the Celtics?

:confusedshrug:

[HurricaneKid]

Regardless of how many games the team won, when Jordan wasn't on the floor, his team was 980 points worse.

Lebron won 66 games in 2013, but his team was only 720 points better with him on the floor.... Not only is this way less than Jordan's 980, but it's way less than Lebron's own +870 that he registered with his other 66-win team that he had in 2009 with Cleveland!

There is no need to try to twist the numbers here... they are what they are... the only difference in Lebron's 66-win teams was that his Cleveland team had less talent.

OP DOESN'T EVEN KNOW WHAT STAT HE IS QUOTING.

Ypu aren't quoting on/off. You are quoting ON. When Jordan was on the floor the Bulls were +980. But when he was OFF the floor the Bulls were +29. Almost all measures of on/off are going to subtract what the team does without you (or add if its negative). So Jordan in 96 had On/Off of 951. LeBron had a 1017 in 08/09.

Which also means half the comments you are making here are false claims and completely incorrect.

If you want to measure a players impact you need to address how the team does without them and compare it to what the team does with him. And you ignore this entirely.

[ralph_i_el]

didn't MJ break his foot? Then came back and dropped 63 points on the Celtics?

:confusedshrug:

broken bones usually don't contribute to long term decline like chronic or acute knee issues.

I'm not saying MJ isn't the GOAT. I'm just saying, in terms of actual basketball impact, there are other guys you can compare to him without it being laughable. It just so happens that MJ was fortunate to have a great situation and coach for most of his career and he went 6/6.

Not saying he didn't earn it:confusedshrug: but what if Charles Barkley had been drafted by the Bulls and played with Pippen and Pjax, while MJ was drafted by the 76ers and bounced from team to team, kicking ass but never winning that chip? Isn't that a realistic scenario?

Even if MJ only won 2 rings and Chuck won 2 in that scenario, MJ wouldn't be considered the GOAT would he?

[poido123]

:applause:

i like how all the lebron fans cannot stick to any issues basketball related when it comes to MJ because they literally have 0 arguments for lebron being superior, so they digress and start talking about his off-court issues with hopes of convincing reasonable people that MJ is now a sh1tty basketball player because he tried to bone someone else's wife.
:oldlol:


They don't actually believe what they write most of the time, it's just a hand full of posters who love nothing more than to ruffle a few bulls/MJ fans feathers, it works which is why they keep doing it :oldlol:

Lucky for me, I don't find myself at all bothered by it. What bothers me more as an MJ fan, is when he gets talked about too much or people find themselves defending MJ's resume etc.

It's not necessary. His resume and legacy speaks for itself.

[3ball]

OP DOESN'T EVEN KNOW WHAT STAT HE IS QUOTING.

Ypu aren't quoting on/off. You are quoting ON. When Jordan was on the floor the Bulls were +980. But when he was OFF the floor the Bulls were +29. Almost all measures of on/off are going to subtract what the team does without you (or add if its negative). So Jordan in 96 had On/Off of 951. LeBron had a 1017 in 08/09.

Which also means half the comments you are making here are false claims and completely incorrect.

If you want to measure a players impact you need to address how the team does without them and compare it to what the team does with him. And you ignore this entirely.
Lebron's plus/minus alongside championship-level supporting casts in Miami (as the OP specifies) is far worse than Jordan's was in 1996.. lebron didn't have anywhere near a championship team in 09', yet his on/off barely beats mj's in 96'

Just imagine if we had the plus/minus data for Jordan back when he was carrying garbage teams to the playoffs.... oooohweeee, he would destroy Lebron even worse..

But Jordan's game was much more adaptable to teammates, so it shouldn't be a surprise that Jordan still added massive value to supporting casts that were already very good, while Lebron could not in Miami and only had elite on/off with weaker teams in 09'.

[ronniec]

Uh...he is. Jordan is so good now apparently no one is on his level? He's just a man and a really good player. If you truly believe this you are a bigger ****ing idiot than he is. Is Jordan better? Of course. Is he so much better that he's on a different tier? Of Course not.

One is a well known fighter, and one is a well known quitter.
This alone, already separated them into 2 different tiers.

[3ball]

It's really interesting because Lebron did not maintain his Cleveland plus/minus levels when he played alongside greater talent in Miami.

Lebron was all they had in Cleveland, and his plus/minus figures were understandably high since the bottom fell out when he left the floor - for example, Lebron had a +871 plus/minus in 2009, so Cleveland was 871 points better when he was on the floor that year.

But when he went to Miami, his plus/minus was only 621, 474, 705 and 405 in 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2014, respectively...

So clearly, when playing with talent and other capable play-creators, Lebron can't find a way to add the same value as he does when playing with all stiffs.

Contrast that to the great Michael Jordan... He registered a +980 plus/minus in 1996, and another +817 in 1997, showing that he CAN find a way to maintain his value-add when playing with talent and other capable play-creators.. (furthermore, his plus-minus in the 80's when he had no cast and even the early 90's must've been through the roof, likely over 1000)

This contrast tells you everything you need to know about the difference in true versatility of each player's game.... Lebron's versatility works best on paper, but in reality he can't maintain his production while playing in whatever fashion (off-ball) allows talented teammates to play to their strengths - so since he can't maintain his production playing entirely off-ball, he simply doesn't play off-ball enough, which prevents talented teammates from playing to their strengths and hurts Lebron's ability to maintain his value-add when playing alongside them (talent).

Otoh, Jordan's true versatility allowed him to maintain his value-add while playing in whatever fashion allowed teammates to play to their strengths, which is why his value-add (plus/minus) did not drop off when playing alongside good players - his record +980 plus/minus in 1996 proves that.

Another shoulder shrug, because yet another stat proves Jordan is GOAT.. :confusedshrug:

.
an oldie but a goodie

[AussieSteve]

The premise of this thread is complete nonsense. Too many flaws in this kind of analysis if even bother with.

Also, I'm pretty sure that lebron is leading the league in +/- this season.

[Uncle Drew]

an oldie but a goodie
5 years later and essays haven

[nayte]

[QUOTE=Uncle Drew]5 years later and essays haven

[ImKobe]

The premise of this thread is complete nonsense. Too many flaws in this kind of analysis if even bother with.

Also, I'm pretty sure that lebron is leading the league in +/- this season.


Lebron is 2nd to Siakam by 2 right now if we go by raw +/-, Giannis is right behind him by 1. BPM-wise, Doncic is dominating the stat with a ridiculous 14.2, Lebron is only at 9.5 in comparison.

[Manny98]

3ball has been doing this shit for 5 years? :roll: :roll: :roll:

What a sad little man

[DMAVS41]

Years 14 and 15 of career:

Lebron...+4.8 on court points per 100...NetRating of +9.3
Jordan...-.2 on court points per 100...NetRating of +3.0

Years 16 and 17 of career:

Lebron...+5.1 on court points per 100...NetRating of 9.9
Jordan..."Information Not Available"

:confusedshrug:

[SpaceJam2]

I truly think OP believes bron is as good as mj. There's no way he can constantly compare the two if he didnt believe bron was at least on mj's level. No one seriously says lebron is better or even on mj's level. Yet OP still continues to belabour the same point that no one even disagrees with.

From 2014 :lol

5 years later and the 3ball meltdowns continue

2016 was the nail in the debate coffin too

[StrongLurk]

Mods, please ban posters who bump their own years old threads constantly.

[SpaceJam2]

Years 14 and 15 of career:

Lebron...+4.8 on court points per 100...NetRating of +9.3
Jordan...-.2 on court points per 100...NetRating of +3.0

Years 16 and 17 of career:

Lebron...+5.1 on court points per 100...NetRating of 9.9
Jordan..."Information Not Available"

:confusedshrug:

Anyone?