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View Full Version : The two players you can't argue about over the internet



TheMarkMadsen
10-05-2014, 10:19 PM
The Answer is one of two modern players for whom Internet debate is basically useless. (The other is Kobe.) There are certain people on the Internet for whom A.I. ranks among the best guards ever, a living legend and a player behind only Kobe, Duncan and Shaq in his era. These are people that respond to a chart that places Billups over Iverson based on an admittedly arcane statistic by literally laughing out loud and pointing out what they see as a major gaffe.


Then there are certain people who think Iverson is not just overrated, but wildly overrated. These are usually stats people. Iverson was not the most efficient player in the league despite huge scoring and assists numbers. Some fans and analysts are so committed to efficiency as the highest priority that they'll argue Iverson was no better than an average player with above-average opportunities. One prominent stats writer claimed Iverson was the 91st-most productive player in the league the year he won MVP. That same stats writer was heavily endorsed by Malcolm Gladwell, so his position won a lot of extra cachet.

There are a number of folks that feel similar, though less strident on the subject. Some might be surprised that Iverson landed so close to Billups on that chart.


A widespread difference of opinion about a player is not rare, especially in the Hot Take era. But pro-Iverson and anti-Iverson folks aren't even speaking the same language. Even otherwise reasonable writers take up arms when Iverson is the topic, as if he is the talisman to the greater debate about the importance of shooting efficiency and the value of data. Note that I'm purposely not linking to any of the hot takes one way or the other. Like I'm saying, the debate is not useful and actually might be destructive.


But the Iverson debates, because he's Allen F. Iverson, never allow for that sort of discussion. At least not on the Internet. He's either a legendary scorer without parallel or a ball-hogging chucker of the highest order. On the Internet, there seems to be painfully little gray area.

stat nerds be damned

Link to article (http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2014/9/12/6139673/allen-iverson-chauncey-billups-debate)

Nowitness
10-05-2014, 10:24 PM
rigged bucks series, dikembe was the mvp of that team.

why is bean there though? oh yeah numbers are his enemy

fpliii
10-05-2014, 10:52 PM
Kobe actually rates extremely well in a lot of metrics.

AI is a tough guy to evaluate. I don't think you can win with him as your best player, but he's too good to be a supporting star. Tough call dealing with him IMO.

rigged bucks series, dikembe was the mvp of that team.

why is bean there though? oh yeah numbers are his enemy
Agree 100% (at least in that series).

TheMarkMadsen
10-05-2014, 11:08 PM
Determining whether or not AI you could win with Iverson as your best player is tough, I'm in the possible minority of posters here that thinks you can.

If he doesn't run into the goat playoff team in 01 he's more than likely siting on a ring right now that he won with while not having any real 2nd scoring option beside him.

Rizko
10-05-2014, 11:38 PM
AI is a tough guy to evaluate. I don't think you can win with him as your best player, but he's too good to be a supporting star. Tough call dealing with him IMO.
I think he can win as the best player. And people don't put context in the era played or some hidden benefits of his style. It was much more isolation based as a whole, not nearly the p&r league it is now. With moderately less spacing then now and more difficulty in successfully getting to the basket*. Iverson's drive lead to a lot of shots that were close to the rim and lead to a good amount offensive rebounds which is an underrated aspect of the game. He could also help his big man get gimme points on dump offs and help his shooters out when the double comes. If Iverson played now with rules that specifically benefit players like him more, on a team that emphasized ball movement and good stretch shooters you could do it.

A team like:
PG- Hinrich (Prime 07ish version great defender, good shooter, can play off ball and create)
SG- Iverson
SF- Kawhi
PF- Aldridge
C- Tyson Chandler (2011 version)

He could win and wouldn't be shooting such a low percentage. No doubt that's stacked overall, but look at the current cavs. A little more top heavy but still basically the same amount of talent just spread out. Iverson is without a doubt the best player on that team and he has enough offense between himself and Aldridge plus others chipping in and certainly has good enough D. I mean this team isn't that much better then the 2011mavs.



*A theory of mine is that the hand checking era made it harder to get right to the rim on a drive, but the illegal defensive rules gave a player more opportunities to potentially drive, but because they were less successful and you didn't get to the rim youre forced to take a midrange jumper or dump it into the post. In this era you don't have as many opportunities to drive to the rim per possession but when you do its a pretty open lane so your likely to get there to either dunk or kick out to a shooter. Basically in the 90's your can have more chances but at a lesser success rate while now you have less chances but there much likelier to be fruitful.

SpecialQue
10-05-2014, 11:41 PM
Came in expecting Shaq and Jordan.