Open Court: NBA 50 Greatest & The Next 10

[L.Kizzle]

Premiers tonight at 5:30 on NBA TV. The guys will be picking their next ten. We know Shaq's ten now we get to see everyone elses.

[Real14]

I will be tuning in for sure.

[Spaulding]

Will be on 6:30 EST. Showing an older episode now.

Thanks for the reminder! Huge fan of show. Seen each episode at least twice.

[Burgz V2]

didn't they do this already?

[L.Kizzle]

I likes.

Thomas is telling the truth Shaq sounds salty though.

[lilteapot]

Missed it, anyone know where I can watch it?

[Real14]

I think if they say nique should be on there than Melo definitely should be on there too.

[Real14]

Missed it, anyone know where I can watch it?
Its coming back on at 1am est

[L.Kizzle]

I think if they say nique should be on there than Melo definitely should be on there too.
No way. He didn't even getva mention. T mac got more of a mention.

[Real14]

No way. He didn't even getva mention. T mac got more of a mention.
And that's messed up. Them niguhs couldn't lead a team the conf finals:facepalm

[rmt]

Surprised more posters aren't talking about this. CWebb showing his arrogance by not excusing himself off this list like Reggie did. No way CWebb belongs on this list before DWade or KD or even before Nash/Kidd. Didn't think AI belonged so far up the list - liked the Duncan, Kobe, Lebron order.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Can anyone post it after it's aired?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

DVR'd tonights show. Wasn't a big fan. Too many peeps talking over each other, leaving just a few coherent thoughts.

And don't get me wrong, I like Shaq, but this clown actually tried to claim Penny (and I think TMac) belonged in the next 10...before Wade. Agenda much?

Webber making a case for himself, talkin' about "KG and Dirk know me!" Haha. Get real. Dirk and KG absolutely shit on this fool, both from a skill and mental approach.

In the end, KD and Wade made the next 10. Much deserved.

[L.Kizzle]

DVR'd tonights show. Wasn't a big fan. Too many peeps talking over each other, leaving just a few coherent thoughts.

And don't get me wrong, I like Shaq, but this clown actually tried to claim Penny (and I think TMac) belonged in the next 10...before Wade. Agenda much?

Webber making a case for himself, talkin' about "KG and Dirk know me!" Haha. Get real. Dirk and KG absolutely shit on this fool, both from a skill and mental approach.

In the end, KD and Wade made the next 10. Much deserved.
Webber didn't vote for himself everyone else did. Same for Miller. Crew actually gave more love to Webb than Miller.

As for Shaqs Penny T Mac and Wade agenda. I think he was going by talent as Mac and Penny are more talented than Wade.

[3ball]

NO WAY tmac deserves next 10 rating....

fragile, ball-dominant, short peak, and in orlando, he went for his a lot - he got assists, but in an iverson sort of way imo.

a tmac-led team was always easily defeated.... he never led tough teams.

melo is the same, only his peak has lasted longer.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Webber didn't vote for himself everyone else did. Same for Miller. Crew actually gave more love to Webb than Miller.
He made a case for himself, and his arrogance showed BIG TIME. lol.


As for Shaqs Penny T Mac and Wade agenda. I think he was going by talent as Mac and Penny are more talented than Wade.
Nah. The crew accounted for everything. Not just talent.

[L.Kizzle]

He made a case for himself, and his arrogance showed BIG TIME. lol.


Nah. The crew accounted for everything. Not just talent.
Only thing Webb said was Duncan KG and Dirk know me.

And Shaq was the only one (Thomas gave him love too) really riding for McGrady. As thats why i said Shaq picked him for talent over Wade.

[KG215]

So did they vote on a consensus "Next 10"? And if so, what was it?

[L.Kizzle]

So did they vote on a consensus "Next 10"? And if so, what was it?
Bob McAdoo
Dominique Wilkins
Kevin Garnett
Allen Iverson
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Dirk Nowitzki
LeBron James
Dwyane Wade
Kevin Durant

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Only thing Webb said was Duncan KG and Dirk know me.
The way he said it was cocky as hell. During commercial break, they also showed a clip of him talking to Kenny about giving Dirk the business in Sacramento.


And Shaq was the only one (Thomas gave him love too) really riding for McGrady. As thats why i said Shaq picked him for talent over Wade.
Which is stupid, because their list prior to that included EVERYTHING. Not just talent.

[Real14]

NO WAY tmac deserves next 10 rating....

fragile, ball-dominant, short peak, and in orlando, he went for his a lot - he got assists, but in an iverson sort of way imo.

a tmac-led team was always easily defeated.... he never led tough teams.

melo is the same, only his peak has lasted longer.
Melo led his team past the 1st round.

[Round Mound]

Bob McAdoo
Dominique Wilkins
Kevin Garnett
Allen Iverson
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Dirk Nowitzki
LeBron James
Dwyane Wade
Kevin Durant

Not a Bad List But Allen Iverson? Bernard King, Adian Dantley and Sindey Moncrief Where Better Than Iverson.

[Legends66NBA7]

Bob McAdoo
Dominique Wilkins
Kevin Garnett
Allen Iverson
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Dirk Nowitzki
LeBron James
Dwyane Wade
Kevin Durant

McAdoo should have been on the Top 50 list. Such a shame.

[Real14]

Not a Bad List But Allen Iverson? Bernard King, Adian Dantley and Sindey Moncrief Where Better Than Iverson.
You know you're lying now, iverson was the best player pound for pound, with scoring titles, 01 season mvp and led a non stacked sixers team to the finals the same year.

[L.Kizzle]

Melo led his team past the 1st round.
McGrady is easily better.

and Iverson is better than AD King and Sid.

[L.Kizzle]

Guys who were up for discussion

Dennis Johnson
Alex English
Adrian Dantley
Reggie Miller
Gary Payton
Alonzo Mourning
Chris Webber
Penny Hardaway
Grant Hill
Jason Kidd
Ray Allen
Steve Nash
Tracy McGrady
Vince Carter
Paul Pierce
Chris Paul

Dwight Howard and Tony Parker were mentioned but Shaq laughed hard at them.

[Real14]

McGrady is easily better.

and Iverson is better than AD King and Sid.
To me tmac only got scoring titles over melo, I mean you can't ignore the fact that melo got passed the 1st round 3 times while tmac never did as a leader. That's the big knock on tracy.

[Real14]

Guys who were up for discussion

Dennis Johnson
Alex English
Adrian Dantley
Reggie Miller
Gary Payton
Alonzo Mourning
Chris Webber
Penny Hardaway
Grant Hill
Jason Kidd
Ray Allen
Steve Nash
Tracy McGrady
Vince Carter
Paul Pierce
Chris Paul

Dwight Howard and Tony Parker were mentioned but Shaq laughed hard at them.

Shaq was a clown for that:oldlol:
The people on the list that melo is better than are...

T mac
Paul
Dantley
English
D.johnson
and G.Hill

[L.Kizzle]

To me tmac only got scoring titles over melo, I mean you can't ignore the fact that melo got passed the 1st round 3 times while tmac never did as a leader. That's the big knock on tracy.
Melos teams much better. Mac is better at everything over Melo.

Also Baron Davis made it past the 1st round a few times is he better than McGrady too?

[L.Kizzle]

Shaq was a clown for that:oldlol:
The people on the list that melo is better than are...

T mac
Paul
Dantley
English
D.johnson
and G.Hill
What planet do you live on?

[Real14]

Melos teams much better. Mac is better at everything over Melo.

Also Baron Davis made it past the 1st round a few times is he better than McGrady too?
Baron is no Melo bro plus baron was never 2nd place in Mvp voting and was never a scoring champ. T mac had good players too man like Yao.

[Real14]

What planet do you live on?
How are they better?

[SamuraiSWISH]

1) Duncan
2) Kobe
3) LeBron

4) KG
5) Iverson
6) Wade
7) Nique
8) Dirk
9) KD
10) McGrady

[TheNaturalWR]

1) Duncan
2) Kobe
3) LeBron

4) KG
5) Iverson
6) Wade
7) Nique
8) Dirk
9) KD
10) McGrady

Iverson over Wade and Dirk? Gotta say I strongly disagree bro.

[Just2McFly]

Wilkins got disrespected in 96... there is no way he should have been snubbed off the top 50

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Iverson over Wade and Dirk? Gotta say I strongly disagree bro.
LOL @ Nique above Dirk, TMac and KD too:lol :lol :roll: :roll:

that nikka was as good as Melo is right now

[guy]

Wow no Kidd or Nash? This would never happen, but if they're basically doing top 60, then some of the original 50 should go off the list.

[TheNaturalWR]

Just watched the segment. They had to settle on Wade? He has a top 15 peak all time and they had to think hard and long about it? :facepalm

[L.Kizzle]

Just watched the segment. They had to settle on Wade? He has a top 15 peak all time and they had to think hard and long about it? :facepalm
Basically all the guys on the panel besides Thomas Barkley and Smith played against Wade. They know more than us.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Anyone have a link:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug: :confusedshrug: the youtube one i watched before got removed:confusedshrug:

[SamuraiSWISH]

Iverson over Wade and Dirk? Gotta say I strongly disagree bro.
After the first 3, it's really not numerical rank.

[tpols]

Shaq dissin and throwing nash under the bus.. salty AF some tiny canadian white dude has more MVPs than him. :oldlol:

Guy is hilariously insecure.

Barkley talking about cwebb winning everywhere he went as his case lmao.. wtf does barkley know about winning first off? Second off, you could say the same for guys like jkidd and nash.. what were the nets and suns before those guys? Jack shit. You could say that type of stuff for many many players..

[Real14]

LOL @ Nique above Dirk, TMac and KD too:lol :lol :roll: :roll:

that nikka was as good as Melo is right now
Nique and Tmac didn't deserve to be mentioned.:oldlol:

[PJR]

This idiot Shaq really threw Tmac and Penny's names out there. :facepalm

Isiah, Reggie, and Kenny the only dudes on that panel with decent perspective.


And Isiah will forever have that soul burning hate in his heart for Jordan and Pippen. He wanted it known that he felt Pippen didn't belong in the first top 50..:oldlol:

[JimmyMcAdocious]

You can tell by the way they reacted that the true consensus was:
Duncan
Kobe
LeBron
Dirk
AI
Garnett
Wilkins
McAdoo

So that's the 8.

The problem is that the criteria is all over the place. Guys like Zeke put more of an emphasis on winning rings. But how does that weigh against a player who carried a franchise, while ending up ringless? The example was McAdoo who had the personal accolades, but he didn't win until he joined the Lakers as a 6th man. Is that so much better than, say, Barkley taking Phoenix to the Finals on his back and losing the Bulls? The other was Reggie vs Ray. Ray didn't carry a franchise as much as Reggie did. Ray has the rings, however as a 2nd, 3rd, 6th man type of option. Which one is greater?

Then there's overall talent and peak of the players. Shaq lobbied for McGrady and Penny with that as his support. Grant Hill is another name for that argument. Bill Walton is the example of that which made the 50 greatest.

Which criteria definitively makes one greater?

[CJ Mustard]

I couldn't believe Miller and C-Webb got a consensus vote and D-Wade and Kevin Durant almost didn't make it. I didn't think guys like Barkley, Shaq, and Kenny would kiss ass/blow smoke to appease those two instead of being real. You know damn well they don't really have those two on their lists. :oldlol:

[bizil]

My top nine FOR SURE would be:

Kobe
Duncan
Lebron
Wade
Dirk
KG
AI
Nique
McAdoo

I can't believe it took them so long to get Wade on that next ten! I figured Wade would be an easy pick and one of the first guys selected. I was VERY DISAPPOINTED in that aspect. I was seriously starting to question "the so called" experts for keeping Wade on ice that long. But yet they tried to grant Webber a spot over Wade BEFORE they came to their senses.

For my tenth spot, it comes down to Nash, Payton, and Kidd. Peak wise, I would take Payton. But Nash is arguably the most fundamentally sound offensive player PG ever and a two time MVP. Kidd was was a walking triple double AND capable of defending PG, SG, and many SF's. I think I would have to take Payton for my final spot. But I wouldn't argue Nash or Kidd.

And my next 10 to make 70 would be:

Kidd
Nash
Pierce
Ray Allen
Vince Carter
English
Dantley
Durant
T Mac
Reggie Miller

[salwan]

hard to argue with that, Bizil. agreed :applause:

[3ball]

And Isiah will forever have that soul burning hate in his heart for Jordan and Pippen. He wanted it known that he felt Pippen didn't belong in the first top 50..:oldlol:


Actually, he made sure not to mention Pippen by name, and only acted up in a mime fashion AFTER Charles Barkely suggested Pippen was as good as Grant Hill... Ernie Johnson then jokingly berated Barkely for bringing up Pippen and causing the uproar.

Earlier in the show when they were discussing who should not have made the original 50, Isiah refused to name Pippen, even though it was obvious later on that he clearly he felt Pippen was overrated.
.

[3ball]

i agree on how they took so long to put wade in the next 10.

he got to do what kobe always wanted to do alongside shaq, which was be the #1 guy, and have shaq be the #2 and just clear the lane for him.

then he played with lebron and bosh.
.

[bizil]

Actually, he made sure not to mention Pippen by name, and only acted up in a mime fashion AFTER Charles Barkely suggested Pippen was as good as Grant Hill... Ernie Johnson then had to jokingly berate Barkely for bringing up Pippen and causing the uproar.

Earlier in the show when they were discussing who should not have made the original 50, Isiah refused to name Pippen, even though it was obvious later on that he clearly he felt Pippen was overrated.
.

Good observation. In terms of Pippen, here's how I break down his standing:

- Redefined the SF position in a major way and became the prototype point forward for his era. He and Lebron had point guard type handle and pace to their game. They could also defend PG's very well, so u could ACTUALLY put them at the PG spot flat out in addition to their point forward type role. This was a different style of point forward from the style of Bird or Barry. Pippen pretty much combined Hondo type all around traits with Dr. J type size and athletic ability. Sick combo of skills!

- Is arguably the greatest defensive perimeter player ever

- Six NBA titles, two gold medals, 7 time all star, 7 time All NBA, 10 All Defensive Teams

With all of these accolades, WHY isn't Pip knocking on the top 15 of all time. It's because he was an epic all around player who WASN'T an alpha dog! He has more rings than top 10 GOAT legends such as Magic, Bird, Duncan, Kobe, Lebron, Shaq, and Wilt. He also redefined his position and actually sort of created the new modern style point forward position. Why wouldn't Pippen be arguably a top 10 player AND regarded as possibly the GOAT SF? It's because of the alpha dog gene! I think many in the league's inner circle know that.

However, I feel many old timers OVERESTIMATED titles with certain guys. Pippen was a beneficiary of that. And in turn guys like Nique and McAdoo (even though he got two late in his career with the Lakers) got left out in the cold. So in that sense, I do think Pippen gets overrated. But make no mistake, I think Pippen was still a great player and HOF worthy. But Nique and McAdoo are guys who put the FEAR in a defense (which is the most premium asset in basketball) in a manner Pippen NEVER came close to. Many great pass first players like Lebron, Magic, Big O, Isiah, CP3, Frazier, Payton, etc. were also alpha dogs. Pip wasn't.

[3ball]

Good observation. In terms of Pippen, here's how I break down his standing:

- Redefined the SF position in a major way and became the prototype point forward for his era. He and Lebron had point guard type handle and pace to their game. They could also defend PG's very well, so u could ACTUALLY put them at the PG spot flat out in addition to their point forward type role. This was a different style of point forward from the style of Bird or Barry. Pippen pretty much combined Hondo time type traits with Dr. J type size and athletic ability. Sick combo of skills!

- Is arguably the greatest defensive perimeter player ever

- Six NBA titles, two gold medals, 7 time all star, 7 time All NBA, 10 All Defensive Team

With all of these accolades, WHY isn't Pip knocking on the top 15 of all time. It's because he was an epic all around player who WASN'T an alpha dog! He has more rings than top 10 GOAT legends such as Magic, Bird, Duncan, Kobe, Lebron, Shaq, and Wilt. He also redefined his position and actually sort of created the new modern style point forward position. Why wouldn't Pippen be arguably a top 10 player AND regarded as possibly the GOAT SF? It's because of the alpha dog gene! I think many in the league's inner circle know that.

However, I feel many old timers OVERESTIMATED titles with certain guys. Pippen was a beneficiary of that. And in turn guys like Nique and McAdoo (even though he got two late in his career with the Lakers) got left out in the cold. So in that sense, I do think Pippen gets overrated. But make no mistake, I think Pippen was still a great player and HOF worthy. But Nique and McAdoo are guys who put the FEAR in a defense (which is the most premium asset in basketball) in a manner Pippen NEVER came close to. Many other great pass first players like Lebron, Magic, Big O, Isiah, CP3 Frazier, Payton, etc. were also alpha dogs. Pip wasn't.
As much bad blood as MJ and Isiah have had over the years, Isiah seemed quite resolute on how bad Pippen was, as if it was laughable that he could even be compared to someone like Grant Hill.

I always felt Grant Hill took what Pippen started at the SF position (as far as being more ball-dominant) and fully modernized it with a real guard handle... Pippen's handle was solid, but it was always limited.

[bizil]

In terms of ranking GOAT standing, I consider:

Talent
Longevity being great
Numbers
Solo accolades
Team accolades
Impact on the League (redefining a position, transcending the sport)

I think with these six categories, u can come up with a fair criteria. For example, it might come down to a tie breaker with one of the categories. So when they talk about Walton, the only strength that he REALLY had in spades for the categories I listed was his talent. He was arguably the most fundamentally sound center ever. That's was really his main dominant strength. In all the other areas, he wasn't around long enough to really put his stamp on his legacy. I know he won a ring and MVP. But still his career was cut so short that it was like lightning in a bottle. Walton with a long career would have him in the top 6-7 centers GOAT wise. Peak wise, he's surely a top 10 center. But GOAT is the top list.

[bizil]

As much bad blood as MJ and Isiah have had over the years, Isiah seemed quite resolute on how bad Pippen was, as if it was laughable that he could even be compared to someone like Grant Hill.

I always felt Grant Hill took what Pippen started at the SF position (as far as being more ball-dominant) and fully modernized it with a real guard handle... Pippen's handle was solid, but it was always limited.

Yep G Hill was the next link in the evolution of the modern point forward. I viewed Hill as a combo of Pippen's point forward skills and Dr J's freak athletic ability and takeover scoring. Hill was really growing into the Dr. J side when the injuries hit. I think Hill at that point proved he was an alpha dog in a way Pippen never was. He just didn't get to exploit it long enough. And I also agree that Hill's handle took it to the next level too.

The 6'8 perimeter guys like Hill, Penny, and T-Mac really broke the mold with the handles they brought to the league! So the freak athlete point forward chain goes Pip-Hill-Bron! Bron of course took it to the ultimate level and became the unquestioned best player in basketball. Pippen never made it to that level and Hill had a great chance to grow into that before injuries. I also will give props to Bird, Barry, Hondo, and Paul Pressey for bringing different styles of the point forward to the game in the 60's, 70's, and 80's. But I think the Pip-Hill-Bron kind of model gives u the most versatility and explosiveness in the two-way sense.

[3ball]

It was funny, Webber wanted to downgrade Wade because he played with "Jordan... uh, I mean Shaq, the greatest big man of all time".

With Pippen there was the strong sentiment in the panel that he shouldn't have been in the original top 50 and that a lot of his legacy due to riding coattails, but I was surprised that anyone brought up that notion with Wade...

and Isiah of all people, was the one most adamant about Pippen's overrated status, but i guess he would know the best out of everyone in the world.

Walton was another one for whom there was VERY strong sentiment that he was overrated.... nash and parker too, :oldlol:
.

[T_L_P]

Wade has a legit top 30 case.

Not top 60 is just :facepalm

[3ball]

Wade has a legit top 30 case.

Not top 60 is just :facepalm
i agree... i think wade is more like magic - he played with great players but was great, dominant and controlled games in his own right.

[L.Kizzle]

Hopefully the guys voting for the Hall of Fame have the samd love as the guys did for Webber.

[T_L_P]

i agree... i think wade is more like magic - he played with great players but was great, dominant and controlled games in his own right.

Agreed. :cheers:

Also, what's this Durant stuff? He's played 7 seasons. His 7 seasons aren't top 60 value.

His 7 years are not worth more than Manu's 12, for example. :confusedshrug:

[L.Kizzle]

Agreed. :cheers:

Also, what's this Durant stuff? He's played 7 seasons. His 7 seasons aren't top 60 value.

His 7 years are not worth more than Manu's 12, for example. :confusedshrug:
Lol yes they are. He already has more total points and rebounds and will pass him in assist in about 2 seasons. His 7 may not be top 60 but are better than Manus.

[T_L_P]

Lol yes they are. He already has more total points and rebounds and will pass him in assist in about 2 seasons. His 7 may not be top 60 but are better than Manus.

Eh, I don't think so.

Manu actually has a title as the best player on his team. His defense is about twice as good. Intangibles can't even be compared.

Durant is, admittedly, a much better scorer and a better rebounder. Manu might be better at everything else, and he has those extra 5 years. KD's had some of the most stacked teams in the league the past 3 years and he still hasn't made a real Playoff imprint, which Manu did in his 3rd season.

[Milbuck]

Just went back and actually watched that segment...holy shit. The criminal underrating and disrespect shown towards D-Wade historically is staggering. We're talking about a guy who at his absolute best was just under Jordan level and as good as any other SG in history.

Peak for peak, the only 2 SGs I'd take over Wade are Jordan and probably Kobe depending on how the team is constructed. T-Mac has a case, but in the end I'd still take Wade.

The guy was a 30/5/8/2/1 57% TS, 30.4 PER player with elite defense at his peak..much like 2006 Kobe, his peak is getting underrated because of the garbage he was surrounded by. We already caught some of his potential in 2006..but I truly think we missed out on legendary championship performances by Wade because of the shit circumstances he was in between 2008-2010 that essentially wasted his peak.

I understand Reggie and C-Webb were sitting right there and they had to show some respect...but Wade at his best is on an entirely different level as a player, there is absolutely no reason why Wade should've been a fringe top 10 guy and Reggie was a near unanimous pick.

[3ball]

Also, what's this Durant stuff? He's played 7 seasons. His 7 seasons aren't top 60 value.


Well, would Lebron have made the next 10 list if the list had been made after HIS 7th season?

If Lebron makes it after his 7th season, then so does Durant, because through 7 seasons, they have similar accolades and accomplishments.

Shaq made the top 50 only 4 years into his career, and guys like Walton made it based on a limited number of seasons as well... So I don't think it's a stretch to say that both Lebron and Durant deserve it based on transcendant talent alone, kind of like Shaq did.

Obviously, once Lebron goes to a new team (Miami) and wins championships, it becomes a no-brainer to put him on there... We'll see if Durant can find another team to win with, or if he will stick it out in OKC.
.

[Warfan]

Just went back and actually watched that segment...holy shit. The criminal underrating and disrespect shown towards D-Wade historically is staggering. We're talking about a guy who at his absolute best was just under Jordan level and as good as any other SG in history.

Peak for peak, the only 2 SGs I'd take over Wade are Jordan and probably Kobe depending on how the team is constructed. T-Mac has a case, but in the end I'd still take Wade.

The guy was a 30/5/8/2/1 57% TS, 30.4 PER player with elite defense at his peak..much like 2006 Kobe, his peak is getting underrated because of the garbage he was surrounded by. We already caught some of his potential in 2006..but I truly think we missed out on legendary championship performances by Wade because of the shit circumstances he was in between 2008-2010 that essentially wasted his peak.

I understand Reggie and C-Webb were sitting right there and they had to show some respect...but Wade at his best is on an entirely different level as a player, there is absolutely no reason why Wade should've been a fringe top 10 guy and Reggie was a near unanimous pick.


Yep. Not sure if I remember correctly, but didnt shaq say no to wade and then mention ray? :oldlol:

[Milbuck]

Yep. Not sure if I remember correctly, but didnt shaq say no to wade and then mention ray? :oldlol:
Yeah I was gonna mention that as well, what the **** was that. I actually started laughing, like you're debating Ray vs Reggie......and completely ignoring a 3x champion who won a ring putting up MJ-like numbers in the finals :oldlol:

[L.Kizzle]

Eh, I don't think so.

Manu actually has a title as the best player on his team. His defense is about itswice as good. Intangibles can't even be compared.

Durant is, admittedly, a much better scorer and a better rebounder. Manu might be better at everything else, and he has those extra 5 years. KD's had some of the most stacked teams in the league the past 3 years and he still hasn't made a real Playoff imprint, which Manu did in his 3rd season.
Must have missed the season where Manu was the best Spur. Manu doesn't even start on his team and Durant runs his. It's easier when you're not the focal point of your team.

This shouldn't even be up for debate.

[3ball]

Just went back and actually watched that segment...holy shit. The criminal underrating and disrespect shown towards D-Wade historically is staggering. We're talking about a guy who at his absolute best was just under Jordan level and as good as any other SG in history.

Peak for peak, the only 2 SGs I'd take over Wade are Jordan and probably Kobe depending on how the team is constructed. T-Mac has a case, but in the end I'd still take Wade.

The guy was a 30/5/8/2/1 57% TS, 30.4 PER player with elite defense at his peak..much like 2006 Kobe, his peak is getting underrated because of the garbage he was surrounded by. We already caught some of his potential in 2006..but I truly think we missed out on legendary championship performances by Wade because of the shit circumstances he was in between 2008-2010 that essentially wasted his peak.

I understand Reggie and C-Webb were sitting right there and they had to show some respect...but Wade at his best is on an entirely different level as a player, there is absolutely no reason why Wade should've been a fringe top 10 guy and Reggie was a near unanimous pick.
Wade was super-dominant, but here are some reasons why the panel might have been hesitant about him.

1) He played with Shaq and then with Lebron and Bosh... With Shaq, he got to do what Kobe always wanted to do - be the #1 option and have Shaq be #2 and clear the lane for him.

2) How would Wade's 2006 style of being the primary ballhandler and dominating the ball work today?... Back in 2006, defenses had JUST been introduced to the defensive 3 seconds restriction and no hand-checking... They were scrambling and hadn't developed optimal defensive strategy yet - EVERYONE was going off at that time... So this dynamic may also have been a factor in why Wade wasn't EASILY rated above guys like Penny, Grant Hill, or Tmac.

3) His game was one-dimensional, albiet a very dominant one dimension... Before 2012 (when he and Lebron figured it out), Wade RARELY posted or played off-ball, or in any fashion other than the primary ballhandler... if he couldn't get all the way to the hole, he did have a nice pull-up too... but that's it.... so that's why guys like Shaq don't rate him with Kobe or Penny, whose scored in more ways off-ball.

[L.Kizzle]

I always thought Wade was overrated. Some player get put in great situations and some have to make their own situations. He got put into one. Not saying he isn't a great player just overrated. Imagine if the much talented McGrady was put in the same situations as Wade?

[sportjames23]

Eh, I don't think so.

Manu actually has a title as the best player on his team. His defense is about twice as good. Intangibles can't even be compared.

Durant is, admittedly, a much better scorer and a better rebounder. Manu might be better at everything else, and he has those extra 5 years. KD's had some of the most stacked teams in the league the past 3 years and he still hasn't made a real Playoff imprint, which Manu did in his 3rd season.


Manu also has this over Durant:

http://cdn2.sbnation.com/imported_assets/387124/3131t2b_medium.gif

[3ball]

Manu also has this over Durant:

http://cdn2.sbnation.com/imported_assets/387124/3131t2b_medium.gif
haha... sick block.

but in reality, are we going to say Manu is better than Lebron too?

because through 7 years of their careers, Durant and Lebron's look the same (MVP, Finals appearance, league-leading stats, etc... Durant matched Jordan's 40 games of 25+ points).

[lilteapot]

haha... sick block.

but in reality, are we going to say Manu is better than Lebron too?

because through 7 years of their careers, Durant and Lebron's look the same (MVP, Finals appearance, league-leading stats, etc... Durant matched Jordan's 40 games of 25+ points).
Except Durant and Lebron's careers do not look similar at all.

[Dresta]

Wade was super-dominant, but here are some reasons why the panel might have been hesitant about him.

1) He played with Shaq and then with Lebron and Bosh... With Shaq, he got to do what Kobe always wanted to do - be the #1 option and have Shaq be #2 and clear the lane for him.

2) How would Wade's 2006 style of being the primary ballhandler and dominating the ball work today?... Back in 2006, defenses had JUST been introduced to the defensive 3 seconds restriction and no hand-checking... They were scrambling and hadn't developed optimal defensive strategy yet - EVERYONE was going off at that time... So this dynamic may also have been a factor in why Wade wasn't EASILY rated above guys like Penny, Grant Hill, or Tmac.

3) His game was one-dimensional, albiet a very dominant one dimension... Before 2012 (when he and Lebron figured it out), Wade RARELY posted or played off-ball, or in any fashion other than the primary ballhandler... if he couldn't get all the way to the hole, he did have a nice pull-up too... but that's it.... so that's why guys like Shaq don't rate him with Kobe or Penny, whose scored in more ways off-ball.
Having a 350lb beheamouth down low 'clears the lane' now does it? A post presence is so aggravating for Lebron that he had to force Bosh all the way out to the 3 point line - why is this an advantage for Wade exactly? And Wade had his most statistically dominant season in 2009 anyway, without the presence of Shaq, so your 'teams only getting used to it' point is redundant. Also, Wade was always a great off ball player (unlike Lebron) - he's always been a great cutter off the ball, one of the best in fact due to his bball iq and ability to read the game.

****, i swear people on this site equate not being able to shoot 3's as 'being one dimensional' - when in reality there are few players with as diverse an array of different ways to score around the basket, few guys who pass and cut like him, and actually (when he was at the peak of his game), there were very few guys with as good a pull-up mid-range game.

[Dresta]

I always thought Wade was overrated. Some player get put in great situations and some have to make their own situations. He got put into one. Not saying he isn't a great player just overrated. Imagine if the much talented McGrady was put in the same situations as Wade?
McGrady joined Orlando and wasted away his best years there of his own free will. If T-Mac had been drafted by Miami in 2003 then Shaq would never have wanted to go there (T-Mac sucked as a Rookie and Shaq wouldn't have joined Miami if they hadn't had a budding star in Wade), and he likely would have failed to do anything again.

Don't blame his 'situations' when he chose them.

[T_L_P]

Anyway, here's my list (assuming you can't remove previous players, which they should):

Duncan
LeBron
Kobe
Dirk
Wade
Garnett
Glove
Nash
Kidd
Nique

HM: Moncrief

[3ball]

Except Durant and Lebron's careers do not look similar at all.
through 7 seasons (each) they do.

[L.Kizzle]

McGrady joined Orlando and wasted away his best years there of his own free will. If T-Mac had been drafted by Miami in 2003 then Shaq would never have wanted to go there (T-Mac sucked as a Rookie and Shaq wouldn't have joined Miami if they hadn't had a budding star in Wade), and he likely would have failed to do anything again.

Don't blame his 'situations' when he chose them.
He joined Orlando expecting a healthy Hill. Not his fault Grant Hill never worked out and Yao Ming never became more than Rik Smits 2.0.

he couldn't even get off the bench in Toronto so I don't blame him for leaving.

[lilteapot]

through 7 seasons (each) they do.

Lebron- 4 MVPS 2 Finals MVPs 2 Chips 1 scoring title 6 all defensive teams
KD- 1 MVP 4 scoring titles no titles and no all defensive teams.

[Milbuck]

through 7 seasons (each) they do.
Except that as actual basketball players, it's not even close for 5 of those 7 seasons if we match them up year by year. Rookie seasons don't matter much..but Lebron's RY > KD's. Then the next 5 seasons aren't exactly close. We're left with literally one season in which KD had a comparable all-around impact to Lebron at his best during his first 7 seasons.

[L.Kizzle]

Except that as actual basketball players, it's not even close for 5 of those 7 seasons if we match them up year by year. Rookie seasons don't matter much..but Lebron's RY > KD's. Then the next 5 seasons aren't exactly close. We're left with literally one season in which KD had a comparable all-around impact to Lebron at his best during his first 7 seasons.
KD 7 is still better than Manu 12.

[Milbuck]

KD 7 is still better than Manu 12.
Didn't mention Manu..

[3ball]

Except that as actual basketball players, it's not even close for 5 of those 7 seasons if we match them up year by year. Rookie seasons don't matter much..but Lebron's RY > KD's. Then the next 5 seasons aren't exactly close. We're left with literally one season in which KD had a comparable all-around impact to Lebron at his best during his first 7 seasons.
hmmm.... good points.... Durant < Lebron through 7 seasons of their career..

durant is still better than manu of course, but you've convinced me that he doesn't belong in the next 10....

however, given that durant has caught up to lebron now, it appears durant and lebron's career arc is simply different... i suspect lebron's stats will be slightly worse than durant's every year going forward.

[Dr.J4ever]

Not a Bad List But Allen Iverson? Bernard King, Adian Dantley and Sindey Moncrief Where Better Than Iverson.

Man, I missed the show:facepalm ..Hopefully someone can provide a link.

Let me comment though that King had a really short peak, and had he not gotten injured he might have been better than A1 but we will never know. So I tend to rate AI higher than King.

As for Moncrief, he was a great defender, but his powerful Bucks teams could never get past the even more powerful 76ers or Celtics in the 80s. He had the longevity, so Sydney may have an argument over AI if you are looking for someone who carried a franchise for a long time and made deep impacts in the playoffs.

Dantley? He was great individually , but his Jazz teams never were considered contenders at any point. Once he made it to the Pistons, his numbers go down, but he still can't win a title for them.

Dantley shouldn't be in consideration.

[PJR]

He joined Orlando expecting a healthy Hill. Not his fault Grant Hill never worked out and Yao Ming never became more than Rik Smits 2.0.

he couldn't even get off the bench in Toronto so I don't blame him for leaving.

Yao Ming was Rik Smits 2.0? Stop it.

2005 and 2007 Yao Ming was arguably just as good as 2006 Shaq, and Tracy McGrady couldn't win shit with him.

Yao did 21/7 against the Mavs in 2005, and 25/10 against the Jazz in the 2007(While T-Mac shot like 39% from the field).

When it truly mattered, T-Mac couldn't elevate a team. Ever. The Orlando situation was sorry, but McGrady gets no passes in Houston. Miss me with any McGrady talk on the Next 10 list. I wouldn't even put him in the "Next 15". He'd have to wait after Chris Paul, Jason Kidd, Paul Pierce, Zo Mourning, Gary Payton, Webber, Ray, and Reggie.

Can't believe this fool Shaq had the audacity to throw his name out there, and was hesitant on Wade, in a clear attempt to foolishly downplay Wade's significance in 2006 in order to prop himself up...This while wearing Dwyane Wade's ring on the set. Talk about delusional. :facepalm :oldlol:

[raiderfan19]

So... Everyone has forgotten how good prime glove was

[kshutts1]

Yao Ming was Rik Smits 2.0? Stop it.

2005 and 2007 Yao Ming was arguably just as good as 2006 Shaq, and Tracy McGrady couldn't win shit with him.

Yao did 21/7 against the Mavs in 2005, and 25/10 against the Jazz in the 2007(While T-Mac shot like 39% from the field).

When it truly mattered, T-Mac couldn't elevate a team. Ever. The Orlando situation was sorry, but McGrady gets no passes in Houston. Miss me with any McGrady talk on the Next 10 list. I wouldn't even put him in the "Next 15". He'd have to wait after Chris Paul, Jason Kidd, Paul Pierce, Alonzo Mourning, Gary Payton, and maybe even Reggie.

Can't believe this fool Shaq had the audacity to throw his name out there, and was hesitating on Wade, in a clear attempt to foolishly downplay Wade's significance in 2006 in order to delusionary prop himself up...This while WEARING Dwyane Wade's ring on the set. :facepalm :oldlol:
I know stats are not the end-all, be-all, but this site... http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mcgratr01.html
says McGrady either got better in the playoffs or, at worst, maintained his same level of play.
Not sure why we then draw the conclusion that McGrady was the reason the Rockets lost.

[moe94]

Can't believe this fool Shaq had the audacity to throw his name out there, and was hesitant on Wade, in a clear attempt to foolishly downplay Wade's significance in 2006 in order to prop himself up...This while wearing Dwyane Wade's ring on the set. Talk about delusional. :facepalm :oldlol:
:applause:

[PJR]

I know stats are not the end-all, be-all, but this site... http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mcgratr01.html
says McGrady either got better in the playoffs or, at worst, maintained his same level of play.
Not sure why we then draw the conclusion that McGrady was the reason the Rockets lost.

He shot 39% against the Jazz in 2007 in a close series. Had he been more efficient, they could've won.

I'm sorry, but this guy never elevated a team in the post-season. Never.

You want argue that he just had some bad luck? Fine, he had some bad luck. I agree with that. But he certainly never made the situations better with his sulky attitude and questionable leadership.

It's not a question that individually he was a special talent, but his impact never translated in the post-season. If you're talking "50's Greatest" and or the "Next 10", he's simply not in the discussion for that very reason.

You've got to give me something there. Something. I'm not even talking a title, I'm merely talking a Conference Finals or Semi Finals appearance with you as the lead dog. McGrady couldn't get out of the first until he was a 15th man on the 2013 San Antonio Spurs.

Nope.

[ArbitraryWater]

1) Duncan
2) Kobe
3) LeBron

4) KG
5) Iverson
6) Wade
7) Nique
8) Dirk
9) KD
10) McGrady

Lmfao at your Dirk hated still coming through..


Basically all the guys on the panel besides Thomas Barkley and Smith played against Wade. They know more than us.

They actually don't.

What does this even mean? We need to agree on everything they say?

Take a look at the GOAT and his horrible talent scouting skills..


Agreed. :cheers:

Also, what's this Durant stuff? He's played 7 seasons. His 7 seasons aren't top 60 value.

His 7 years are not worth more than Manu's 12, for example. :confusedshrug:

So you have Manu above Durant all-time? :biggums:

Durant should be about top 50 by now come on

[ArbitraryWater]

1. LeBron James
2. Tim Duncan
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Kevin Garnett
6. Dwyane Wade
7. Steve Nash
8. Chris Paul
9. Dwight Howard
10. Dominique Wilkins

[3ball]

1. LeBron James
2. Tim Duncan
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Kevin Garnett
6. Dwyane Wade
7. Steve Nash
8. Chris Paul
9. Dwight Howard
10. Dominique Wilkins
lol nash:whatever: :yaohappy:

[Spaulding]

1. LeBron James
2. Tim Duncan
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Kevin Garnett
6. Dwyane Wade
7. Steve Nash
8. Chris Paul
9. Dwight Howard
10. Dominique Wilkins

So you have Nash and Howard instead of McAdoo? Can't be serious. Plus Paul but no Kidd or Iverson....

[tpols]

Actually, he made sure not to mention Pippen by name, and only acted up in a mime fashion AFTER Charles Barkely suggested Pippen was as good as Grant Hill... Ernie Johnson then jokingly berated Barkely for bringing up Pippen and causing the uproar.

Earlier in the show when they were discussing who should not have made the original 50, Isiah refused to name Pippen, even though it was obvious later on that he clearly he felt Pippen was overrated.
.

chauncey billups scoffed at the idea of scottie pippen being compared to grant hill as an all around player. :facepalm

This whole panel sucks.. youll notice theres nobody from the GOAT top 10 on it. . No MJ.. No Bird.. No Magic.. No KAJ.. No Russel or Wilt.. No Hakeem,

All the greatest winners arent there. Theyve got a bunch of guys from the 90s that combined for 0 rings as main pieces.. Only winner there is isaih whose just desperate to stay relevant since hes been blackballed a bunch of times in the league already.. and shaq whose just absolutely starving for some attention and has zero knowledge or insight.

[BlackVVaves]

chauncey billups scoffed at the idea of scottie pippen being compared to grant hill as an all around player. :facepalm

This whole panel sucks.. youll notice theres nobody from the GOAT top 10 on it. . No MJ.. No Bird.. No Magic.. No KAJ.. No Russel or Wilt.. No Hakeem,

All the greatest winners arent there. Theyve got a bunch of guys from the 90s that combined for 0 rings as main pieces.. Only winner there is isaih whose just desperate to stay relevant since hes been blackballed a bunch of times in the league already.. and shaq whose just absolutely starving for some attention and has zero knowledge or insight.

Agree with some of this, but to pretend Shaq isn't within the top 10 GOAT list is asinine at best.

[tpols]

Agree with some of this, but to pretend Shaq isn't within the top 10 GOAT list is asinine at best.

shaq is.. I didnt mean it like that.. shaq's the only guy from the top 10 GOAT list on there but hes a fool.. and his opinions suck. He should stick to his comedy routines on TNT with barkley, leave the serious discussion to others more qualified.

[ArbitraryWater]

So you have Nash and Howard instead of McAdoo? Can't be serious. Plus Paul but no Kidd or Iverson....

O hell yea I have.

Why would Kidd or Iverson be better than Chris Paul? I still don't get this... I would take Paul over them any day of the week. Not even think about it.

McAdoo was good for 6 years but his career is cut short in comparison to others.. Howard is a 2-sided BEAST. One of the most dominant defenders ever, arguably the greatest rebounder ever, and then adds another 20 ppg on near 60% offensively... Real 2-way player.

Steve Nash was voted 25th on RealGM Top 100... (Paul 31 btw)

You think he's not in the top 60?

Nash was a great playoff performer, one of the best passers/playmakers ever, offensive game changer... Smart player who almost always made the right decisions, transforming teams into offensive forces without having any other huge difference maker.

GOAT shooter, one of the GOAT passers.

And had Horry not bumped into Nash, he likely would have a Title/FMVP as well.

[BlackVVaves]

The fact that Shaq was mentioning names like T-Mac and Penny over Wade and Steve Nash.....:roll:

The fact that Dominique made that list before Wade, and that they removed Webber as an result......just wow. :facepalm

[BlackVVaves]

shaq is.. I didnt mean it like that.. shaq's the only guy from the top 10 GOAT list on there but hes a fool.. and his opinions suck. He should stick to his comedy routines on TNT with barkley, leave the serious discussion to others more qualified.

Oh ok, yeah I agree. Dude was advocating for T-Mac?! Alonzo?!! Penny???

His evaluation skills are putrid. Just embarrassingly putrid.

[tpols]

O hell yea I have.

Why would Kidd or Iverson be better than Chris Paul? I still don't get this... I would take Paul over them any day of the week. Not even think about it.

McAdoo was good for 6 years but his career is cut short in comparison to others.. Howard is a 2-sided BEAST. One of the most dominant defenders ever, arguably the greatest rebounder ever, and then adds another 20 ppg on near 60% offensively... Real 2-way player.

Steve Nash was voted 25th on RealGM Top 100... (Paul 31 btw)

You think he's not in the top 60?

Nash was a great playoff performer, one of the best passers/playmakers ever, offensive game changer... Smart player who almost always made the right decisions, transforming teams into offensive forces without having any other huge difference maker.

GOAT shooter, one of the GOAT passers.

And had Horry not bumped into Nash, he likely would have a Title/FMVP as well.

idk why you think nash is easily above paul but kidd is not.. Kidd has come closer to FMVPs and rings as the man than nash(or paul) ever has.. and hes arguably the GOAT defender at his position(his help D + def Rebounding > GP's one dimensional man defense).

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The fact that Shaq was mentioning names like T-Mac and Penny over Wade and Steve Nash.....:roll:

The fact that Dominique made that list before Wade, and that they removed Webber as an result......just wow. :facepalm

Dominique was a freak. A trendsetter that happened to have great longevity, just never truly had the team to contend, imo. The other guys though? It's like all logic is thrown out the window when Shaq is talking about his legacy (he was downplaying Wade for that reason, and that reason alone).

[HomieWeMajor]

Link guys : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOEimrfJuaY

[StephHamann]

How the hell can you take Iverson over Jason Kidd?

Please explain mighty ISH

[HomieWeMajor]

I felt for C-Webb real spit.

[ArbitraryWater]

idk why you think nash is easily above paul but kidd is not.. Kidd has come closer to FMVPs and rings as the man than nash(or paul) ever has.. and hes arguably the GOAT defender at his position(his help D + def Rebounding > GP's one dimensional man defense).

But Kidd also played in the worst East ever... I'm sure I've seen you say this before, actually.

Nash was battling Mavericks/Spurs in the West, and lost in the WCF in 6 games (except '05) all times...

He's a much better defender, though... But Nash's offensive impact is GOAT like caliber IMO.

I also don't care much for PG stats... My PG could be averaging 15/7 and turn a team into the best offensive one in the league... Then again we have mediocre PG's who average 18/9 or something like that and don't really make a difference at all... (Holiday for example)

[AlphaWolf24]

Isiah Thomas :facepalm


Zeke is all over the place.....


Zeke has got to be lurking on ISH.....sounds exactly like the tired arguments here:lol


I love it..

[HOoopCityJones]

I don't think I can ever give Tmac a pass, there was a time where he and Yao should have did damage , but the guy just never showed up for a Playoff in his career.

While you had guys like Kobe and Wade who were living on a prayer after their co-stars left, taking trash teams to the playoff. Can you imagine what Kobe alone woulda did with Yao working from the Post? That's at least two or three rings.

[HOoopCityJones]

I felt for C-Webb real spit.

Real Talk, he looked like he was about to cry when they were discussing if he should even be considered. Then they shattered my heart and I'm sure his too, when they just decided to take him out and add DWade and KD literally BEFORE the panel ended. Right in the feels.

[3ball]

Real Talk, he looked like he was about to cry when they were discussing if he should even be considered. Then they shattered my heart and I'm sure his too, when they just decided to take him out and add DWade and KD literally BEFORE the panel ended. Right in the feels.
KD doesn't deserve it... someone earlier convinced me of that.. milbuck

[tpols]

But Kidd also played in the worst East ever... I'm sure I've seen you say this before, actually.

Nash was battling Mavericks/Spurs in the West, and lost in the WCF in 6 games (except '05) all times...

He's a marginally better defender, though... But Nash's offensive impact is GOAT like caliber IMO.

I also don't care much for PG stats... My PG could be averaging 15/7 and turn a team into the best offensive one in the league... Then again we have mediocre PG's who average 18/9 or something like that and don't really make a difference at all... (Holiday for example)
Ugh.. you're completely uneducated on Jason kidd. He turned a 20 win team into 50+ and finals. A 22nd ranked defense into the first ranked defense.. and you just said he's only marginally better at defense than nash.. damn .. I can tell you right now there was a much bigger gap between the twos defense than there was between their offense.

[Dro]

Link guys : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOEimrfJuaY
Is that the full episode? I can't watch youtube at work......

[AlphaWolf24]

But Kidd also played in the worst East ever... I'm sure I've seen you say this before, actually.

Nash was battling Mavericks/Spurs in the West, and lost in the WCF in 6 games (except '05) all times...

He's a marginally better defender, though... But Nash's offensive impact is GOAT like caliber IMO.

I also don't care much for PG stats... My PG could be averaging 15/7 and turn a team into the best offensive one in the league... Then again we have mediocre PG's who average 18/9 or something like that and don't really make a difference at all... (Holiday for example)


http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z192/Def_Fit/2edz0v5jpg.gif


WoW....do you even watch hoop.

[HOoopCityJones]

KD doesn't deserve it... someone earlier convinced me of that.. milbuck

To be fair, they were saying the same about Shaq when he was added at the ripe age of 24. They talk about it during the panel.

He was added off potential alone and lets be honest if anyone has a case to be on the Next 10 from this era based strictly off potential, it's Kevin Durant.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

KD deserves to be over Webber.

Dude has led the league in scoring multiple seasons, is the reigning MVP, and has already led his team to the finals.

Pretty straight forward stuff.

[Dresta]

But Kidd also played in the worst East ever... I'm sure I've seen you say this before, actually.

Nash was battling Mavericks/Spurs in the West, and lost in the WCF in 6 games (except '05) all times...

He's a marginally better defender, though... But Nash's offensive impact is GOAT like caliber IMO.

I also don't care much for PG stats... My PG could be averaging 15/7 and turn a team into the best offensive one in the league... Then again we have mediocre PG's who average 18/9 or something like that and don't really make a difference at all... (Holiday for example)
Your ignorance has just been exposed.

[Kblaze8855]

He's a marginally better defender, though...

You are out of your gotdamn mind.

[Kblaze8855]

I didnt even see the previous posts on the issue. I guess that caught everyones eye.

One of those things you cant scroll by and ignore.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I seriously don't get how Arbitrary has that many reps. No offense dude, but in the last week, you've compiled maybe 2 or 3 of the dumbest posts I've seen on this forum.

Take a break from posting and read up on your history. Not a reader? Watch some game tape. Anything before typing another one of your jaded views.

[L.Kizzle]

KD doesn't deserve it... someone earlier convinced me of that.. milbuck
He deserves it.

[HomieWeMajor]

Is that the full episode? I can't watch youtube at work......
Yessir

[Real14]

Anyway, here's my list (assuming you can't remove previous players, which they should):

Duncan
LeBron
Kobe
Dirk
Wade
Garnett
Glove
Nash
Kidd
Nique

HM: Moncrief
:facepalm

[Real14]

KD deserves to be over Webber.

Dude has led the league in scoring multiple seasons, is the reigning MVP, and has already led his team to the finals.

Pretty straight forward stuff.
I agree, Webber was nice but come on.

[LongLiveTheKing]

Wade>>> KG, AI, Dirk, Wilkins, KD, Mcadoo, .

[Real14]

Wade>>> KG, AI, Dirk, Wilkins, KD, Mcadoo, .
I don't know about that.

[moaz]

Wade>>> KG, AI, Dirk, Wilkins, KD, Mcadoo, .
:roll:

[Real14]

:roll:
:lol

[HOoopCityJones]

Revised Next 10

Duncan
Kobe
Kevin Garnett
Dirk Nowitzki
Lebron James
Allen Iverson
Dominique Wilkins
Bob McAdoo
D Wade
Kevin Durant

[LongLiveTheKing]

:roll:
3 rings, better finals performances than any of them. Better prime.

[ArbitraryWater]

Ugh.. you're completely uneducated on Jason kidd. He turned a 20 win team into 50+ and finals. A 22nd ranked defense into the first ranked defense.. and you just said he's only marginally better at defense than nash.. damn .. I can tell you right now there was a much bigger gap between the twos defense than there was between their offense.



http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z192/Def_Fit/2edz0v5jpg.gif


WoW....do you even watch hoop.


Your ignorance has just been exposed.


You are out of your gotdamn mind.


I seriously don't get how Arbitrary has that many reps. No offense dude, but in the last week, you've compiled maybe 2 or 3 of the dumbest posts I've seen on this forum.

Take a break from posting and read up on your history. Not a reader? Watch some game tape. Anything before typing another one of your jaded views.


Holy shit... I looked up "marginally" I thought it meant something like "way better"..... I'm sorry...

The gap defensively is HUGE... Obviously it is.

I don't want y'all to think wrong of... Can I get a confirmation that you read this? Otherwise I'll just feel stupid lol... Anyone who says the difference in defense between the 2 is close is just that..

[Real14]

Revise Next 10

Duncan
Kobe
Kevin Garnett
Dirk Nowitzki
Lebron James
Allen Iverson
Dominique Wilkins
Bob McAdoo
D Wade
Kevin Durant
Why Nique man? Why?:facepalm

[Real14]

3 rings, better finals performances than any of them. Better prime.
Wade had a great prime, but his 3 rings were asterisks and 06 finals performance was well deserved ONLY in the first two games. 2006 finals game 3-6 was great help treatment from the refs and everybody knows that shit:no:

[LongLiveTheKing]

Wade had a great prime, but his 3 rings were asterisks and 06 finals performance was well deserved ONLY in the first two games. 2006 finals game 3-6 was great help treatment from the refs and everybody knows that shit:no:
You're just making excuses. D-Wade has 3 rings, deal with it.

[Real14]

You're just making excuses. D-Wade has 3 rings, deal with it.
but you know I'm right man:lol

[HOoopCityJones]

Why Nique man? Why?:facepalm

Kenny made a great point last night about Nique being synonymous with the Hawks. Plus he carried a Team for years he just lost to other greats.

[moe94]

idk why you think nash is easily above paul but kidd is not.. Kidd has come closer to FMVPs and rings as the man than nash(or paul) ever has.. and hes arguably the GOAT defender at his position(his help D + def Rebounding > GP's one dimensional man defense).

Even though Kidd went to the Finals twice as the best player, I'd argue Nash got closer to winning a title as the best player despite never reaching a Finals. :D

[Real14]

Kenny made a great point last night about Nique being synonymous with the Hawks. Plus he carried a Team for years he just lost to other greats.
That's why I believe that if Nique makes the list then Melo should make the list. I mean the only thing I can see Nique have over Melo is his dunking skills and dunking contest title:confusedshrug:

[Real14]

Even though Kidd went to the Finals twice as the best player, I'd argue Nash got closer to winning a title as the best player despite never reaching a Finals. :D

How?

[LongLiveTheKing]

but you know I'm right man:lol
You're a know Heat hater so your opinion is irrelevant to anything relating to the Heat. :oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

Even though Kidd went to the Finals twice as the best player, I'd argue Nash got closer to winning a title as the best player despite never reaching a Finals. :D

Exactly.. Kidd didn't stod a chance in 2002, 6 in '03..Nash was literally a Robert Horry ejection away from winning it (90%... I don't think anyone would give the Jazz/Cavs a chance) and then had 3 more WCF's where he lost in 6 or once 5.

[Real14]

You're a know Heat hater so your opinion is irrelevant to anything relating to the Heat. :oldlol:
I'm not a heat hater, I just used to dislike their ways and devilish schemes. I'm cool with the heat now:cheers:

[Real14]

Exactly.. Kidd didn't stod a chance in 2002, 6 in '03..Nash was literally a Robert Horry ejection away from winning it (90%... I don't think anyone would give the Jazz/Cavs a chance) and then had 3 more WCF's where he lost in 6 or once 5.
Is Kidd like 3rd all time in assists?

[ArbitraryWater]

Is Kidd like 3rd all time in assists?

2nd.. Nash 3rd.

Yeah, it's close between the 2..

[Real14]

2nd.. Nash 3rd.

Yeah, it's close between the 2..
Damn that's even better plus Kidd was co rookie of the year in 95. Only thing Nash got on him is that 05 mvp (06 mvp was bullshit).

[Dro]

Yessir
Thx bro...

[Dro]

Can't believe Nash is being compared to Kidd.....Kidd is a far superior player.

[moe94]

Damn that's even better plus Kidd was co rookie of the year in 95. Only thing Nash got on him is that 05 mvp (06 mvp was bullshit).

How are you going to hype up a co RotY while downplaying an MVP and think you're making a convincing argument? :biggums:

[ArbitraryWater]

Can't believe Nash is being compared to Kidd.....Kidd is a far superior player.

No one is a "far superior player" when trailing one by 2 MVP's... 0 to 2

I totally agree it's close, and like I said, I got "marginally" mixed up with major/significant.. (Hopefully everyone who quoted me sees that)

[Real14]

How are you going to hype up a co RotY while downplaying an MVP and think you're making a convincing argument? :biggums:
Im just saying that Nash was given the 06 mvp, and he lucky he even got 05 Mvp (but yes he deserves this one more) especially knowing that Kidd got snubbed of the 2002 MVP.

[StephHamann]

Come on guys, the real question is

Why the **** do they rank Iverson> Nash & Kidd

i would even take Payton over AI

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

People don't think Iverson has a case over Kidd? Interesting.

[moe94]

Iverson definitely has a case over Kidd. You can run down their stats and accomplishments and if you think it's crazy to put one over the other, then you're being dishonest and biased.

[Real14]

Come on guys, the real question is

Why the **** do they rank Iverson> Nash & Kidd

i would even take Payton over AI

What makes them better than A.I? I would love to hear this:lol

[Dresta]

Wade had a great prime, but his 3 rings were asterisks and 06 finals performance was well deserved ONLY in the first two games. 2006 finals game 3-6 was great help treatment from the refs and everybody knows that shit:no:
:facepalm

Come on man. There wasn't anything at all wrong with even the numbers of FT's shot in games 3 and 4. Dirk took only a couple less FT's than Wade and shot way fewer shots (Wade being an all time great slasher, Dirk all time great shooter). Considering this, if anything, the number of FT's shot favoured Dallas in games 3 & 4.

[L.Kizzle]

Forget the MVPS and awards, when it all comes down to it, Jason Kidd is better than Steve Nash.

Nash had A'mare = a better version of Kenyon Martin
Nash had Marion = a better version of Richard Jefferson
Nash had Joe Johnson = a better version of Ketty Kittles
Nash had Barbosa = a better version than masked man (can't think of his name right now.)


Which goes back to the reasoning for Shaq taking Penny and T-Mac over D-Wade.

Also, Kidd and Payton were damn near unanimous. Shaq had Payton and not Kidd. Miller had Kidd and not Payton.

[StephHamann]

What makes them better than A.I? I would love to hear this:lol

longetivity
MVPs
Rings
all time scoring and assits lists

not beeing a lazy chuking teamcancer

[Dresta]

Forget the MVPS and awards, when it all comes down to it, Jason Kidd is better than Steve Nash.

Nash had A'mare = a better version of Kenyon Martin
Nash had Marion = a better version of Richard Jefferson
Nash had Joe Johnson = a better version of Ketty Kittles
Nash had Barbosa = a better version than masked man (can't think of his name right now.)


Which goes back to the reasoning for Shaq taking Penny and T-Mac over D-Wade.

Also, Kidd and Payton were damn near unanimous. Shaq had Payton and not Kidd. Miller had Kidd and not Payton.
That's why Shaq is a retard though. Penny did less well with a far superior version of Shaq to play with.

[ArbitraryWater]

Okay so Dresta and DaMighty saw my ****up.. Need confirmation on the others :D

[Real14]

:facepalm

Come on man. There wasn't anything at all wrong with even the numbers of FT's shot in games 3 and 4. Dirk took only a couple less FT's than Wade and shot way fewer shots (Wade being an all time great slasher, Dirk all time great shooter). Considering this, if anything, the number of FT's shot favoured Dallas in games 3 & 4.
I dare you to take a poll on this:coleman:

[Real14]

longetivity
MVPs
Rings
all time scoring and assits lists

not beeing a lazy chuking teamcancer
MVPS? Nash mvp seasons was less extravagant than Iversons in 01. Iverson really took that team on his back. Kidd got a ring in the end of his career playing with dirk and kidd definitely was not in his prime anymore. Payton had his asterisk ring with wade, shaq, zo and a.walker man.:facepalm

[StephHamann]

MVPS? Nash mvp seasons was less extravagant than Iversons in 01. Iverson really took that team on his back. Kidd got a ring in the end of his career playing with dirk and kidd definitely was not in his prime anymore. Payton had his asterisk ring with wade, shaq, zo and a.walker man.:facepalm

Kidd and Payton were both starters that played important roles in the finals doe.

What was Phoenix before Nash?

Nash joined a Suns team which had emerging young players in Shawn Marion, Joe Johnson and Amar'e Stoudemire. In the season before Nash arrived, the Suns had recorded a 29–53 win–loss record,[5] and they were projected to have another poor season. Head coach Mike D'Antoni favoured an up-tempo style of basketball; this required smaller and more athletic players with the capability to outrun and outshoot their opponents. Nash's familiarity with this style combined with the athleticism of his teammates produced an NBA-best 62–20 record and a points-per-game average of 110.4, the highest in a decade.

:coleman:

[moe94]

longetivity
MVPs
Rings
all time scoring and assits lists

not beeing a lazy chuking teamcancer

Is this a joke? :biggums:

[L.Kizzle]

That's why Shaq is a retard though. Penny did less well with a far superior version of Shaq to play with.
Made it to the NBA Finals one year, lose to the 72-10 Bulls the next.

[tpols]

Okay so Dresta and DaMighty saw my ****up.. Need confirmation on the others :D

I saw it.. but I assume you have changed your stance on nash being multiple spots better than kidd and Paul when you just admitted it's close later on.

I think Kidds better than both.. Nash had waaaaay more stacked teams.. and never won as much.. kidd had his teams up on Detroit piston teams that destroyed LA and gave the Spurs fits. The nets had some battles in the early mid 2000s.. it was not nearly as weak as it's being made out to be. The east was weaker last year than it was from 03 to 05.

[Real14]

Kidd and Payton were both starters that played important roles in the finals doe.

What was Phoenix before Nash?

:coleman:

But they still weren't in their primes and for damn sure were not putting up prime numbers. Phoenix didn't make playoffs in 04, but what about 03? Nash was just a great point to fit that suns team, that's all. Look at Nash teammates anyway. Amare, Marion, Joe Johnson, T.Thomas, Q-Rich, and Barbosa who were way better compared to Iverson's 01 team.

[ArbitraryWater]

I saw it.. but I assume you have changed your stance on nash being multiple spots better than kidd and Paul when you just admitted it's close later on.

I think Kidds better than both.. Nash had waaaaay more stacked teams.. and never won as much.. kidd had his teams up on Detroit piston teams that destroyed LA and gave the Spurs fits. The nets had some battles in the early mid 2000s.. it was not nearly as weak as it's being made out to be. The east was weaker last year than it was from 03 to 05.

It's close... Kidd's APG made me realize that tbh...

I actually think Paul is a better Player than both, but I held back putting him even higher... I woulf though once his career is finished.

05 wasn't weak due to Pistons/Heat... But 2002 and 2003, the years Kidd actually made it to the Finals? Cmon on... Garbage.

[Milbuck]

Duncan
Kobe
Bron
Dirk
KG
Wade
KD
AI
Kidd
T-Mac

[Real14]

Duncan
Kobe
Bron
Dirk
KG
Wade
KD
AI
Kidd
T-Mac
Why him?

[Dro]

No one is a "far superior player" when trailing one by 2 MVP's... 0 to 2

I totally agree it's close, and like I said, I got "marginally" mixed up with major/significant.. (Hopefully everyone who quoted me sees that)
MVP's are not a player to player comparison though. Its just given to the player who had the most impact on their team's success for that particular year. Kidd was well past his prime when Nash won his MVP's. Kidd could have won MVP's during both years where he took his team to the Finals also. But too bad he was up against prime Iverson and Duncan. If Kidd were in his prime when Nash won his MVP's, he could have won it having the years he had in 01-02.

[tpols]

It's close... Kidd's APG made me realize that tbh...

I actually think Paul is a better Player than both, but I held back putting him even higher... I woulf though once his career is finished.

05 wasn't weak due to Pistons/Heat... But 2002 and 2003, the years Kidd actually made it to the Finals? Cmon on... Garbage.

It wasn't even the heat.. indy was beast.. Detroit was stacked.. the sixers and celtics weren't as bad as you guys make them out to be.the nets were up 3-2 on super stacked 2004 pistons before injuries caught up with them.

They weren't being intimidated by Roy hibbert.. Ben Wallace would make that guy shit his pants.


And if kidd had had prime Joe johnson and matrix on his team with kmart he'd have Fmvp(s) for sure

[Dro]

longetivity
MVPs
Rings
all time scoring and assits lists

not beeing a lazy chuking teamcancer
This is so false. Its crazy how a dude's rep follows him forever....This couldn't be further from the truth, just ask his teammates. Then watch the Iverson documentary if you haven't already. And even thats not enough, you can always research other sources, his former coaches/peers, etc....

[StephHamann]

But they still weren't in their primes and for damn sure were not putting up prime numbers. Phoenix didn't make playoffs in 04, but what about 03? Nash was just a great point to fit that suns team, that's all. Look at Nash teammates anyway. Amare, Marion, Joe Johnson, T.Thomas, Q-Rich, and Barbosa who were way better compared to Iverson's 01 team.

Let me ask you, who is better?

Player A: Drafted in 1994 playing the starting point guard role on championsship team, while playing in crunch time

Player B: Drafted in 1996 playing in freaking Turkey

[Cold soul]

Duncan
Kobe
Bron
Dirk
KG
Wade
KD
AI
Kidd
T-Mac

Pretty good list overall. I would take out T-Mac for Paul Pierce though. T-Mac higher peak and better player, but Pierce has FMVP was the leader of 08 Celtics other than KG. Pierce is all-time leading scorer in Celtics history among many Celtics records. Pierce has the better accomplishments and longevity over T-Mac.

[ArbitraryWater]

It wasn't even the heat.. indy was beast.. Detroit was stacked.. the sixers and celtics weren't as bad as you guys make them out to be.the nets were up 3-2 on super stacked 2004 pistons before injuries caught up with them.

They weren't being intimidated by Roy hibbert.. Ben Wallace would make that guy shit his pants.


And if kidd had had prime Joe johnson and matrix on his team with kmart he'd have Fmvp(s) for sure

Yeah, I just said Detroit/Miami... So you would add the Pacers also?

Prime O'Neil (Jermaine) was a beast... But besides that?

Artest was the next best guy... Shooting 39% in the Playoffs. Nobody else scored in double Digits.

REALLY medicore...

[G0ATbe]

Kobe


Durant






the rest

[tpols]

Yeah, I just said Detroit/Miami... So you would add the Pacers also?

Prime O'Neil (Jermaine) was a beast... But besides that?

Artest was the next best guy... Shooting 39% in the Playoffs. Nobody else scored in double Digits.

REALLY medicore...
Go look up the games for back then.. everybody shot in the 30s/low 40 in the east.. A typical net piston game would end in the 70s. They were brutal physical contests.. Steve Nash would've gotten hurt in the first round trying to play their style.

[moaz]

You're just making excuses. D-Wade has 3 rings, deal with it.

again :roll:

Players, who won 4+ ringas after 1996:
Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, Will Perdue, John Salley (4 rings)
Dennis Rodman, Ron Harper, Steve Kerr, Derek Fisher (5 rings)
And don't forget Robert Horry with his 7 rings :bowdown:

Applying similar standard, you have a lot to deal with.

[L.Kizzle]

Why him?
He's that good.

[Milbuck]

Pretty good list overall. I would take out T-Mac for Paul Pierce though. T-Mac higher peak and better player, but Pierce has FMVP was the leader of 08 Celtics other than KG. Pierce is all-time leading scorer in Celtics history among many Celtics records. Pierce has the better accomplishments and longevity over T-Mac.

Why him?
Yeah I was gonna mention it, ended up editing it out...but that's a bias pick on my part. Career-wise, he's not supposed to be there. But I loved his game and peak-wise, I'd take him over Nash, Nique, GP, whoever else is in the conversation for that 10th spot. At his best he was prime Kobe, Wade, current KD and Lebron level, just doesn't feel right putting Nash or Pierce ahead of him even though they're great players in their own right.

[Real14]

This is so false. Its crazy how a dude's rep follows him forever....This couldn't be further from the truth, just ask his teammates. Then watch the Iverson documentary if you haven't already. And even thats not enough, you can always research other sources, his former coaches/peers, etc....
Exactly.

[Real14]

Let me ask you, who is better?

Player A: Drafted in 1994 playing the starting point guard role on championsship team, while playing in crunch time

Player B: Drafted in 1996 playing in freaking Turkey

What does this have to do with anything?:biggums:

[Real14]

He's that good.
why should he be on there knowing he was a 2nd round virgin but people like Melo should not be on there?

[Real14]

Pretty good list overall. I would take out T-Mac for Paul Pierce though. T-Mac higher peak and better player, but Pierce has FMVP was the leader of 08 Celtics other than KG. Pierce is all-time leading scorer in Celtics history among many Celtics records. Pierce has the better accomplishments and longevity over T-Mac.

I disagree with pierce being on that list, but I do respect that he led the Celtics to the 2002 east finals and is better career wise than T-mac.

[LongLiveTheKing]

again :roll:

Players, who won 4+ ringas after 1996:
Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, Will Perdue, John Salley (4 rings)
Dennis Rodman, Ron Harper, Steve Kerr, Derek Fisher (5 rings)
And don't forget Robert Horry with his 7 rings :bowdown:

Applying similar standard, you have a lot to deal with.
None of them had a greater impact to a championship team like D-Wade did in 2006. And in 2012 and 2013 only maybe Parker and Manu had as much impact as Dwyane Wade in certain playoff series in their championship teams.
Did any of those players average 30 points, 7.5 assists, and 5 rebounds in a season on 49% shooting?
Or average 34.7 points 7.8 rebs 3.8 assists in the finals?
Nope didn't think so.

[tpols]

I disagree with pierce being on that list, but I do respect that he led the Celtics to the 2002 east finals and is better career wise than T-mac.
Tmac's so overrated.. did he even have a better peak than amare when he was giving prime duncan 37ppg in the playoffs?

[Real14]

Tmac's so overrated.. did he even have a better peak than amare when he was giving prime duncan 37ppg in the playoffs?
I think T-mac gets the benefit of the doubt because of his scoring titles, I mean what else did he do?:confusedshrug:

[mehyaM24]

next 10 just off game impact?

lebron
garnett
dirk
wilkins
durant
kidd
nash
payton
kobe
webber

wade and iverson would have to be left out. shaq was the best player on those heat teams (drew all the doubles, played the best defense etc) and lebron for the latter b2b titles.

[T_L_P]

next 10 just off game impact?

lebron
garnett
dirk
wilkins
durant
kidd
nash
payton
kobe
webber

wade and iverson would have to be left out. shaq was the best player on those heat teams (drew all the doubles, played the best defense etc) and lebron for the latter b2b titles.

Duncan? Is you serious? :roll:

[Real14]

next 10 just off game impact?

lebron
garnett
dirk
wilkins
durant
kidd
nash
payton
kobe
webber

wade and iverson would have to be left out. shaq was the best player on those heat teams (drew all the doubles, played the best defense etc) and lebron for the latter b2b titles.

You left these two out but leave Webber, payton, and wilkins in there?:biggums: Plus wade was the best heat player in 06 that led them to the finals and had a scoring title too.

[Real14]

Duncan? Is you serious? :roll:
he mad about 2007 and 2014:oldlol:

[T_L_P]

Did he just call Shaq the best Heat player in 06? :roll:

Wade scored 10 more PPG than Shaq.

He drew all that defensive attention though. :facepalm

:facepalm

[mehyaM24]

Duncan? Is you serious? :roll:

i forgot about duncan. you can replace him with webber. tbh not much separated them other than the system played. webber/kg/dirk all win multiple titles with pop and gino/parker. :confusedshrug:

[Real14]

Did he just call Shaq the best Heat player in 06? :roll:

Wade scored 10 more PPG than Shaq

He drew all that defensive attention though. :facepalm

:facepalm

I don't know what he was watching:lol

[mehyaM24]

You left these two out but leave Webber, payton, and wilkins in there?:biggums: Plus wade was the best heat player in 06 that led them to the finals and had a scoring title too.

refs and shaq. shaq drew all the double teams. the mavs game planned for him,not wade who got easy looks all series.

look at shaq and webber's reaction when wade is mentioned. :oldlol: they know what's up.

[Real14]

i forgot about duncan. you can replace him with webber. tbh not much separated them other than the system played. webber/kg/dirk all win multiple titles with pop and gino/parker. :confusedshrug:
You do have a point tho, but fact still stands, even I have to admit that Duncan deserves to be on that list.

[L.Kizzle]

why should he be on there knowing he was 2nd round virgin but people like Melo should not be on there?
They're different levels. Mac is a tier above. Same with Pierce.

[SexSymbol]

refs and shaq. shaq drew all the double teams. the mavs game planned for him,not wade who got easy looks all series.

look at shaq and webber's reaction when wade is mentioned. :oldlol: they know what's up.
The first part of your post is just completely false, go watch the games.
Shaq wants wade not to be on there for people to think he had a bigger impact on those heat teams.
Webber wants Wade to not be on there because he would get in as his friends are sitting right next to him, so he stays relevant just a little bit longer

[L.Kizzle]

Tmac's so overrated.. did he even have a better peak than amare when he was giving prime duncan 37ppg in the playoffs?
You serious? What next Latrell Sprewell was better too?

[mehyaM24]

You do have a point tho, but fact still stands, even I have to admit that Duncan deserves to be on that list.

he probably does. im cool with swapping webber for duncan.

tbh i think there should be a next 11. there is always ONE guy that gets snubbed unfortunately.

[jayfan]

Yeah, I just said Detroit/Miami... So you would add the Pacers also?

Prime O'Neil (Jermaine) was a beast... But besides that?

Artest was the next best guy... Shooting 39% in the Playoffs. Nobody else scored in double Digits.

REALLY medicore...

That Pacers team was a very good team. Tremendous defense. Well coached. Very similar to the Pistons.







.

[Dro]

That Pacers team was very good. Tremendous defense.
I honestly felt that we had a great shot at the championship that year. That's why so many Pacers fans never forgave Artest for getting suspended. Their defense was awesome and Artest was averaging like 24ppg for those first 8-10 games I believe before he was suspended.

[bizil]

Some people on here are missing the point. This list should be designed for a guy's total career. Peak value and GOAT status are two different things. T-Mac is an interesting case because even though he was injury hobbled, it wasn't like a Penny or Bill Walton situation. He was a seven time All Star, seven time All NBA, and two time scoring champion. He also redefined the SG position. Dude was 6'9, a freak athlete, could play PG, SG, and SF, and has one of the top 10 scoring skillsets of all time for the perimeter guys. Plus his peak value is probably in the top 4 of all time at SG along with MJ, Kobe, and Wade.

T-Mac's case is MUCH STRONGER than guys like Webber, Penny, Hill, etc. to make that next 10. I didn't put T-Mac in my next ten because u had a guy like Payton who was great into his mid 30's. But he has a much stronger case than other guys who caught the injury bug early in their prime years.

When it comes to Nique, he's EASILY in the next 10 AND should have been in the original 50. I see Nique for some reason is catching some heat on the site for making the next 10. Other than a title, Nique has EVERY BASE covered in terms of being an all time great:

- With 26,668 points, he's scored MORE POINTS than any SF in NBA HISTORY! More than Bird, Baylor, Barry, Hondo, English, and Dr. J (when u thrown in ABA scoring, Doc in the all time scoring leader for SF's so I gotta him love too) So the all time scoring team by position is C-Kareem -PF Mailman- SF Nique- SG MJ- PG Big O

- He was a 10 time All-Star, 7 time All NBA, a scoring champion, and finished 2nd in the MVP voting behind Bird in the Golden Era on the NBA

- With his two slam dunk titles, he helped the league gain worldwide prominence battling MJ in those contests. The modern All Star game as we know was BUILT on Dr. J, Magic, Bird, Isiah, MJ, and Nique.

- He was a great player for a long ass time into his mid 30's! He retained his freak athletic ability longer than any great perimeter player ever. You also have to give him props for coming back so strong from that Achilles tendon surgery.

- Nique redefined athletic ability in the NBA big time. All the other great freak athlete SF's before Nique (Baylor, Hawkins, Doc) were mainly one foot takeoff guys who dominate. Nique REALLY brought the two foot power vertical game to the SF position. His scoring skillset he added to it was also more evolved too.

[StephHamann]

What does this have to do with anything?:biggums:

so longetivity and Rings have nothing to do?

:lol

[jayfan]

I honestly felt that we had a great shot at the championship that year. That's why so many Pacers fans never forgave Artest for getting suspended. Their defense was awesome and Artest was averaging like 24ppg for those first 8-10 games I believe before he was suspended.

I agree. Even though the Pistons made it back to the Finals and had an epic series with San Antonio, that brawl year was your year. It's a shame the whole thing happened.





.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Ray didn't carry a franchise as much as Reggie did.

Reggie Miller has never carried a franchise.

[L.Kizzle]

Reggie Miller has never carried a franchise.
Must have been Vern Fleming.

[Real14]

Must have been Vern Fleming.
:oldlol:

[Cold soul]

Reggie Miller has never carried a franchise.

Yes, he did just not to a championship.

[L.Kizzle]

:oldlol:
And to think that big eared dude has been getting all the credit. SPIKE LEE was trolling the wrong player.

[Real14]

he probably does. im cool with swapping webber for duncan.

tbh i think there should be a next 11. there is always ONE guy that gets snubbed unfortunately.
Idk, I would definitely put Webber in my next top 20 tho.

[Real14]

And to think that big eared dude has been getting all the credit. SPIKE LEE was trolling the wrong player.
Exactly:lol

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Yes, he did just not to a championship.

He was never the most impactful player on his best teams. He's one of the best shooters and floppers ever, but he just...wasn't. He was akin to Carmelo on the Nuggets, except Carmelo was a better player.

[L.Kizzle]

He was never the most impactful player on his best teams. He's one of the best shooters and floppers ever, but he just...wasn't. He was akin to Carmelo on the Nuggets, except Carmelo was a better player.
Sure he wasn't Kblaze.

[Dro]

And to think that big eared dude has been getting all the credit. SPIKE LEE was trolling the wrong player.
:lol

[Dro]

Reggie Miller has never carried a franchise.
And YES he did. A guy doesn't have to average 25+ ppg to carry a franchise. Clutch time is called Miller time for a reason. Everybody on the court knew who was getting the ball with the game on the line and he got the blame when the Pacers didn't win. Either he didnt' make the clutch shot, didnt score enough points, or didn't play good enough defense.

They didn't make it to the Finals until Jalen became a dependable scorer and they had a team full of vets. Other than that, Reggie was the only constant. He went through Robins from Chuck Person, to Detlef Schrempf to Rik Smits, to Jalen Rose but he was always Batman. He was the leader and he was the one who gave his teammates confidence to compete with the best even though they were rarely the most talented team. He was still the leader even when Artest and Jermaine were entering their prime...He was having big games in the playoffs up until he was 37 years old....

His unselfishness is actually the biggest reason he didn't score more because he was one of the most efficient scorers in NBA History....

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

He was never the most impactful player on his best teams. He's one of the best shooters and floppers ever, but he just...wasn't. He was akin to Carmelo on the Nuggets, except Carmelo was a better player.
Yeah, well, you're an idiot, so there's that.

[Smook A.]

I didn't get to see Open Court so I just went through all these pages. Shaq is a retard. He was criminally underrating Dwyane Wade. The guy had one of the best peaks ever and his career so far has been just amazing. Some of these fans, and analysts don't give him enough respect.


Holy shit... I looked up "marginally" I thought it meant something like "way better"..... I'm sorry...

Wait, you didn't know what marginally meant? ... Dude how old are you? :lol

[SexSymbol]

I didn't get to see Open Court so I just went through all these pages. Shaq is a retard. He was criminally underrating Dwyane Wade. The guy had one of the best peaks ever and his career so far has been just amazing. Some of these fans, and analysts don't give him enough respect.



Wait, you didn't know what marginally meant? ... Dude how old are you? :lol
Give him a break, english isn't his first language

[PsychoBe]

Give him a break, english isn't his first language

you talking about shaq or arbitrarywater? :lol

[moe94]

Wait, you didn't know what marginally meant? ... Dude how old are you? :lol

He's German and has a great grasp on the language, all things considered.

[SexSymbol]

you talking about shaq or arbitrarywater? :lol
obviously the water lol

I always understood Shaq fine, never saw how people said he was mumbling all the time

[L.Kizzle]

Surprised Billups didn't get a mention.

[moe94]

Surprised Billups didn't get a mention.
lol

[L.Kizzle]

By the way I love Isiah Thomas here. He's not afraid to bring up players like Karl Malone last year and Scottie Pippen and John Stockton yesterday.

[moe94]

Tmac's so overrated.. did he even have a better peak than amare when he was giving prime duncan 37ppg in the playoffs?

You cannot possibly be suggesting that Pierce peaked higher than T-Mac, right? :oldlol:

[BasedTom]

wade and iverson would have to be left out. shaq was the best player on those heat teams (drew all the doubles, played the best defense etc) and lebron for the latter b2b titles.
http://i.imgur.com/78ZEWrV.jpg

[Real14]

Surprised Billups didn't get a mention.
Maybe because he had so much help.

[L.Kizzle]

Maybe because he had so much help.
I was saying that because he was present.

[Real14]

I was saying that because he was present.
Oh I see.

[tpols]

You cannot possibly be suggesting that Pierce peaked higher than T-Mac, right? :oldlol:

where did I even mention pierce lol

[Round Mound]

Is the full discussion on youtube already?

[Spaulding]

Is the full discussion on youtube already?

Look in this thread. Link is there.

[Round Mound]

Look in this thread. Link is there.

:cheers:

[Round Mound]

My List:

1-Tim Duncan
2-Lebron James
3-Kobe Bryant
4-Dirk Nowitzki
5-Kevin Garnett
6-Dywane Wade
7-Bob BcAdoo
8-Gary Payton
9-Jason Kidd
10-Chris Webber

[L.Kizzle]

Here is the list they did as the TNT crew in 2006:

Connie Hawkins
Bob McAdoo
Dominique Wilkins
Reggie Miller
Gary Payton
Jason Kidd
Kevin Garnett
Allen Iverson
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan

-----

Compared to the 2014 list added were Dirk, LeBron, Wade and Durant and gone is Hawkins, Miller, Glove and Kidd.

[iamgine]

I kinda cringe when they used the Phoenix system as a reason against Steve Nash. As if that's a valid reason. Magic had a great system, Jordan did too, Duncan etc. We don't see the system gets blamed. When a player fit in a system, it's a great thing.

[Hoopz2332]

Is there a link to the full show?

[StephHamann]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOEimrfJuaY&list=UUMdRg9hGqHaNnIZuR1puM6g

[ArbitraryWater]

He's German and has a great grasp on the language, all things considered.

Thanks

I didn't think about it and used marginally... Obviously given the reactions I noticed I used the exact opposite of what I meant.


Wait, you didn't know what marginally meant? ... Dude how old are you? :lol

I wanna see you getting an A in German. (My English grade)




Yes, mad. But take a ****in guess.

[Hoopz2332]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOEimrfJuaY&list=UUMdRg9hGqHaNnIZuR1puM6g


is that the full video?

[trabash]

Shaq picked: Alex English, Dominique Wilkins, Bob McAdoo, Kobe, Duncan, Garnett, C. Webb, A.I., T-Mac, Gary Payton by the way.

No Nowitzki (probably forgot), no D. Wade, no Durant, no Jason Kidd.

He also said he has T-Mac and Penny both over D. Wade. I mean he must know best he played with all of them, why is he giving Wade no love?

[ArbitraryWater]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOEimrfJuaY&list=UUMdRg9hGqHaNnIZuR1puM6g

Refusing to watch that asskissing agenda filled trash.

[PJR]

He also said he has T-Mac and Penny both over D. Wade. I mean he must know best he played with all of them, why is he giving Wade no love?

There was a personal ulterior motive there. Remember, Shaq isn't exactly on good terms with either Riley or D.Wade after they shipped his ass out, once he became a 20 million dollar paperweight. :oldlol:

[Bigsmoke]

Paul Pierce should be on that list and y'all naming Tmac and Reggie Miller:lol

How a player score as much as Pierce did over his career with a Finals MVP and not be in the top 60??

[lilteapot]

Paul Pierce should be on that list and y'all naming Tmac and Reggie Miller:lol

How a player score as much as Pierce did over his career with a Finals MVP and not be in the top 60??
Isiah kept trying to mention Pierce and nobody else on the panel even cared lol

[Bigsmoke]

Isiah kept trying to mention Pierce and nobody else on the panel even cared lol

On here.

Barkley has some strange hatred towards Paul Pierce since 2002

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

And YES he did. A guy doesn't have to average 25+ ppg to carry a franchise. Clutch time is called Miller time for a reason. Everybody on the court knew who was getting the ball with the game on the line and he got the blame when the Pacers didn't win. Either he didnt' make the clutch shot, didnt score enough points, or didn't play good enough defense.

They didn't make it to the Finals until Jalen became a dependable scorer and they had a team full of vets. Other than that, Reggie was the only constant. He went through Robins from Chuck Person, to Detlef Schrempf to Rik Smits, to Jalen Rose but he was always Batman. He was the leader and he was the one who gave his teammates confidence to compete with the best even though they were rarely the most talented team. He was still the leader even when Artest and Jermaine were entering their prime...He was having big games in the playoffs up until he was 37 years old....

His unselfishness is actually the biggest reason he didn't score more because he was one of the most efficient scorers in NBA History....

What I said about him has nothing to do with how many points he scored or didn't score. He was a good player, just not one that carried a franchise. He's the most well known Pacer of all-time and probably will be for the next 10-15 years. Doesn't change the fact that he wasn't the single most important piece on his winning teams.

[Kblaze8855]

As if that's a valid reason. Magic had a great system, Jordan did too, Duncan etc. We don't see the system gets blamed.

Magic was great as a swingman for like 4 years before he even ran point. He scored in the middle of his career...then kinda transitioned into a point forward. By the time he retired the first time it was just him, worthy, and role player remnants of their peak era and some young guys years away. By the end they were a middle of the pack scoring team(13th in a 27 team league) but an elite defensive team winning in the halfcourt a lot of the time posting up Magic and Worthy with Magic spotting up from 3 and playing some 4. Magic would prosper in any role and won rings by dropping 40+ or 20+ assists. He closed out one finals series by dropping 40...and another by putting up something like a 15/15/13 triple double where he only took 3 shots. Magic could...and did...do everything. He would have been a HOF power forward. Cant tie his greatness to any one way of playing.

Jordan was considered the best ever by many before Phil showed up with the triangle. Nobody would say the triangle made Jordan. He was already a career 33ppg player with an MVP.


Duncans systems have changed totally. Watch the 99 finals. They used to just dump it to Drob or Duncan and stand and watch. they didnt play this free flowing beautiful ball till he was like 8 years and 2 rings and 2 mvps in.

Even putting aside that they accomplished much more in the systems they are associated with than Nash.....they proved much more outside those systems than Nash did without the one hes most associated with.

Nash literally went from....not mentioned at all in best PG talks...being allowed to walk by his team so they could spend his money on Dampier...at age 30...considered a decline player...

To back to back MVPS.

Clearly he had it in him to begin with because you dont get that much better skills wise at 30...

But he was in an ideal situation.

At least 4 of those guys were in the league with Nash...Dallas or second run Phoenix Nash im not counting 90s Nash....

They seemed pretty adamant that they would put him behind several other points mostly due to feeling that system made him appear to be more than he is.

Id like to hear from more players in a setting that would let them be that candid.

Steve might be one of those guys other players arent that blown away by.

Though for the record....I think "sympathy mvp" was a bit harsh. Id likely have voted him 3rd in 05 behind Dirk and Shaq. I dont know how Dirk loses 3 all stars...one of them soon to be MVP...just gets back Jason Terry..wins more games than the year before(58 I think)...and doesnt get MVP love.

06 im not that mad at.

No Amare or JJ...Marion was great...Diaw stepped up. But that team wasnt all that talented.

He did his thing holding it together.

[mehyaM24]

What I said about him has nothing to do with how many points he scored or didn't score. He was a good player, just not one that carried a franchise. He's the most well known Pacer of all-time and probably will be for the next 10-15 years. Doesn't change the fact that he wasn't the single most important piece on his winning teams.
repeating yourself doesn't magically make your opinion fact.

the 98 pacers, arguably the best team reggie has played on, he led the team in winshares BOTH during the regular season and playoffs.

now THAT is a fact

[Kblaze8855]

First of all....this is how you calculate win shares:




Calculate points produced for each player. In 2008-09, James had an estimated 2345.9 points produced.
Calculate offensive possessions for each player. James had an estimated 1928.1 offensive possessions in 2008-09.
Calculate marginal offense for each player. Marginal offense is equal to (points produced) - 0.92 * (league points per possession) * (offensive possessions). For James this is 2345.9 - 0.92 * 1.083 * 1928.1 = 424.8. Note that this formula may produce a negative result for some players.
Calculate marginal points per win. Marginal points per win reduces to 0.32 * (league points per game) * ((team pace) / (league pace)). For the 2008-09 Cavaliers this is 0.32 * 100.0 * (88.7 / 91.7) = 30.95.
Credit Offensive Win Shares to the players. Offensive Win Shares are credited using the following formula: (marginal offense) / (marginal points per win). James gets credit for 424.8 / 30.95 = 13.73 Offensive Win Shares.
B. 1973-74 to 1976-77 NBA

-0.0005075172 * (minutes played) * (player age)
- 0.0873982755 * (field goals)
+ 0.0925506598 * (field goal attempts)
+ 0.1566322510 * (free throw attempts)
+ 0.0449241773 * (total rebounds)
+ 0.2321637159 * (assists)
+ 0.2040169400 * (personal fouls)
Note that if this number is less than zero, then it should be rounded up to zero. Plugging Abdul-Jabbar's statistics into the formula above we get an estimate of 280.316 turnovers.
Find the sum of estimated turnovers for the players on the given team. The sum for the players on the 1976-77 Lakers is 1448.057.
Calculate the player's share of this total. Abdul-Jabbar's share of the team total is 280.316 / 1448.057 = 0.194.
Multiply the team's turnovers (adjusted for team turnovers) by the player's share. As mentioned, the NBA tracked turnovers at the team level in these seasons. However, the team totals include team turnovers (i.e., turnovers that are not attributed to an individual player). Thus, we multiply the team's turnovers by 0.985, then multiply this adjusted figure by the player's share. For Abdul-Jabbar this is 1538 * 0.985 * 0.194 = 293.9, which we round up to 294.

Now that we have this estimate, the method above is used to complete the calculation of Offensive Win Shares.
C. 1946-47 to 1948-49 BAA and 1949-50 to 1972-73 NBA

Calculate marginal points per win. Marginal points per win reduces to 0.16 * (team points per game + opponent points per game). For the 1964-65 Royals this is 0.16 * (114.2 + 111.9) = 36.176.
Credit Offensive Win Shares to the players. Offensive Win Shares are credited using the following formula: (marginal offense) / (marginal points per win). Robertson gets credit for 516.06 / 36.176 = 14.27 Offensive Win Shares.
Calculate the Defensive Rating for each player. James's Defensive Rating in 2008-09 was 99.1.
Calculate marginal defense for each player. Marginal defense is equal to (player minutes played / team minutes played) * (team defensive possessions) * (1.08 * (league points per possession) - ((Defensive Rating) / 100)). For James this is (3054 / 19780) * 7341 * ((1.08 * 1.083) - (99.1 / 100)) = 202.5. Note that this formula may produce a negative result for some players.
Calculate marginal points per win. Marginal points per win reduces to 0.32 * (league points per game) * ((team pace) / (league pace)). For the 2008-09 Cavaliers this is 0.32 * 100.0 * (88.7 / 91.7) = 30.95.
Credit Defensive Win Shares to the players. Defensive Win Shares are credited using the following formula: (marginal defense) / (marginal points per win). James gets credit for 202.5 / 30.95 = 6.54 Defensive Win Shares.
B. 1951-52 to 1972-73 NBA

Prior to the 1973-74 season, the NBA did not track defensive rebounds, steals, or blocks, so allocating defensive credit is a difficult task. Nevertheless, here is the process for crediting Defensive Win Shares in those seasons (once again using Robertson in 1964-65 as an example):
Calculate team marginal defense. Team marginal defense is equal to 1.08 * (league points per shot attempt) * (team field goal attempts + 0.44 * (team free throw attempts)) - (opponent points). If you're wondering why we're using team shot attempts as opposed to opponent shot attempts, the answer is (a) we don't have opponent shot attempts prior to 1970-71 and (b) the system works better using team shot attempts. For the 1964-65 Royals we get 1.08 * 0.9578 * (7797 + 0.44 * 2866) - 8952 = 417.854.
Calculate the player's share of the team's marginal defense. The player's share of the team's marginal defense is equal to 0.25 * ((minutes played) / (team minutes played)) + 0.5 * ((total rebounds) / (team total rebounds)) + 0.25 * ((assists) / (team assists)). How did I get those weights? Modern Defensive Win Shares are most dependent on minutes played, defensive rebounds, steals, and blocks. I regressed DWS on those stats and then found the relative importance of each regressor (approximately 25% for minutes played, 35% for defensive rebounds, 25% for steals, and 15% for blocks). Since those defensive statistics are not available for past seasons, I used total rebounds as a proxy for defensive rebounds and blocks; and assists as a proxy for steals.
Calculate marginal points per win. Marginal points per win reduces to 0.16 * (team points per game + opponent points per game). For the 1964-65 Royals this is 0.16 * (114.2 + 111.9) = 36.176.
Credit defensive Win Shares to the players. Defensive Win Shares are credited using the following formula: (marginal defense) / (marginal points per win). Robertson gets credit for 97.151 / 36.176 = 2.69 Defensive Win Shares.
B. 1950-51 NBA


Calculate the player's share of the team's marginal defense. The player's share of the team's marginal defense is equal to 0.25 * ((field goal attempts) / (team field goal attempts)) + 0.5 * ((total rebounds) / (team total rebounds)) + 0.25 * ((assists) / (team assists)). How did I get those weights? Modern Defensive Win Shares are most dependent on minutes played, defensive rebounds, steals, and blocks. I regressed DWS on those stats and then found the relative importance of each regressor (approximately 25% for minutes played, 35% for defensive rebounds, 25% for steals, and 15% for blocks). Since those defensive statistics are not available for past seasons, I used field goal attempts as a proxy for minutes played; total rebounds as a proxy for defensive rebounds and blocks; and assists as a proxy for steals. Note that prior to the 1967-68 season, team total rebounds included team rebounds, so to account for this multiply the team total by 0.875. Getting back to our example, Mikan's share on the 1950-51 Lakers is equal to 0.25 * (1584 / 5590) + 0.5 * (958 / (0.875 * 3049)) + 0.25 * (208 / 1408) = 0.2873.
Calculate marginal defense for each player. Marginal defense is equal to (team marginal defense) * (player share). For Mikan this is 708.023 * 0.2873 = 203.415. Note that this formula may produce a negative result for some players.
Calculate marginal points per win. Marginal points per win reduces to 0.16 * (team points per game + opponent points per game). For the 1950-61 Lakers this is 0.16 * (82.8 + 77.4) = 25.632.
Credit defensive Win Shares to the players. Defensive Win Shares are credited using the following formula: (marginal defense) / (marginal points per win). Mikan gets credit for 203.415 / 25.632 = 7.94 Defensive Win Shares.
B. 1946-47 to 1948-49 BAA and 1949-50 NBA

V. Putting It All Together

The final step of the process is to add Offensive Win Shares to Defensive Win Shares. In our examples, LeBron James total in 2008-09 is 13.73 + 6.54 = 20.27 Win Shares and Oscar Robertson total in 1964-65 is 14.27 + 2.69 = 16.96 Win Shares.

And I had to remove literally thousands of characters to get it to fit into one post....

Its a bunch of nonsense and subjective values that has nothing to do with how good a basketball player is.

Which is why Hakeem was able to put up 33/10/5 with 3 blocks and a steal while shooting 53% and playing outstanding defense...lead his team to a ring...and not lead his team in win shares in the playoffs that year.

Thats a fact.

Its also irrelevant if the issue is who the best player was.

[L.Kizzle]

What I said about him has nothing to do with how many points he scored or didn't score. He was a good player, just not one that carried a franchise. He's the most well known Pacer of all-time and probably will be for the next 10-15 years. Doesn't change the fact that he wasn't the single most important piece on his winning teams.
Who carried the franchise? Was it one of the Davis Boys? Rik Smits? Derrick McKey/Detlef Schremphf? Mark Jackson? Jalen Rose? Chris Mullin? Travis Best? The great Vern Feming? It wasn't the guy making multiple all-star teams, multiple all-nba teams, 1994 and 1996 Team USA member? 2012 Hall of Famer inductee?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Next 10 should just be a list of the best players since 1996:

Lebron
Kobe
Duncan
Garnett
Dirk
Wade

(in some order)

then:

5 of Durant Melo Carter McGrady Nash Kidd Pau Payton Paul Pierce Allen etc.

[mehyaM24]

First of all....this is how you calculate win shares:




And I had to remove literally thousands of characters to get it to fit into one post....

Its a bunch of nonsense and subjective values that has nothing to do with how good a basketball player is.

Which is why Hakeem was able to put up 33/10/5 with 3 blocks and a steal while shooting 53% and playing outstanding defense...lead his team to a ring...and not lead his team in win shares in the playoffs that year.

Thats a fact.

Its also irrelevant if the issue is who the best player was.

statistical outliers happen. especially in a shortened season like the playoffs. find me one 82 game season where somebody had more win shares than hakeem from 92-95.

:cheers: