how many championships do garnett/webber win in the SPURS system?

[mehyaM24]

open court's latest episode got me thinking about webber being left out of everyone's next 10 (while duncan and kg were safely ranked because of rings).

say webber (OR kg) were to replace duncan and start his career in san Antonino, the exact year duncan was drafted. how many championships does he win with david robinson and popovich? how many does he win with manu/parker/bowen and popovich?

with webber and kg, they flourished in multiple systems with different coaches. how is that NOT a testament to their INDIVIDUAL greatness? meanwhile, duncan has been nurtured by pop and is totally ingrained systematically - and its worked. they couldnt be more successful together. ive seen duncan play in multiple all star, international (anyone see that imbound pass to manu yesterday? smh) and olympic events, though - and the guy is totally ****ing clueless, looking like dr frankenstein's monster out there. the antithesis of a pickup player.

i just dont think much separated webber and kg from duncan, aside from injuries and help. bottom line , cwebb in SA wins at least 4 titles and is cemented as a next 10 player (hell, with his talent, a top 10-15 player all time).

and thus, the flaw in ring counting

[wakencdukest]

I think Duncan would have been great in any system.

[joe]

Neither have the match of both Duncan's personality and defense. Not only did Tim anchor the defense, he was also the centerpiece of Spurs culture. His willingness to be coached, to be humble, to pass the ball, to take less money, and his entire character as a human being is why "Spurs Culture" exists.

Do Tony Parker and Many Ginobli develop the same without Duncan's willingness to share the spotlight? Does Popovich stay multiple years with his kindred spirit (Duncan) replaced by a loud mouthed Garnett? Do the role players commit so hard to defense with paper-thin Webber behind them?

We do not know those answers, but we do know what actually happened. Duncan is one of the greatest to ever play, and deservedly ranked ahead of Chris Webber and Kevin Garnett.

[tpols]

Neither have the match of both Duncan's personality and defense. Not only did Tim anchor the defense, he was also the centerpiece of Spurs culture. His willingness to be coached, to be humble, to pass the ball, to take less money, and his entire character as a human being is why "Spurs Culture" exists.

Do Tony Parker and Many Ginobli develop the same without Duncan's willingness to share the spotlight? Does Popovich stay multiple years with his kindred spirit (Duncan) replaced by a loud mouthed Garnett? Do the role players commit so hard to defense with paper-thin Webber behind them?

We do not know those answers, but we do know what actually happened. Duncan is one of the greatest to ever play, and deservedly ranked ahead of Chris Webber and Kevin Garnett.

KG may be loud.. but hes not a knucklehead or a disruption.. hes one of the best defensive leaders/QBs the game has ever seen and has shown he can blend with other stars(look how seamlessly boston fit together and dominated their first year).


Id say webber 2ish titles.. KG 4 or 5 just like duncan.

[L.Kizzle]

Webber in Pops system is freakin nasty.

[joe]

KG may be loud.. but hes not a knucklehead or a disruption.. hes one of the best defensive leaders/QBs the game has ever seen and has shown he can blend with other stars(look how seamlessly boston fit together and dominated their first year).


Id say webber 2ish titles.. KG 4 or 5 just like duncan.

Punching guys below the belt. You look like a cancer patient. Almost fighting Melo. Knucklehead. Great player but almost the anti-Spur.

[tpols]

Punching guys below the belt. You look like a cancer patient. Almost fighting Melo. Knucklehead. Great player but almost the anti-Spur.

A little trashtalk lol.. hes not rasheed wallace. Almost getting into a fight a few times in a 15+ year career.. hes not ron artest. KG has never been a selfish player, his biggest strength offensively is his passing and defensively hes one of the best help defenders and communicators ever.. this isnt allen iverson or something, KG is one of the most unselfish best without the ball players ever.

The spurs took stephen jackson back after he went into the stands and beat people up.. I dont think theyd pass up on a top 15-20 GOAT player because he almost fought somebody once.

[HOoopCityJones]

A little trashtalk lol.. hes not rasheed wallace. Almost getting into a fight a few times in a 15+ year career.. hes not ron artest. KG has never been a selfish player, his biggest strength offensively is his passing and defensively hes one of the best help defenders and communicators ever.. this isnt allen iverson or something, KG is one of the most unselfish best without the ball players ever.

The spurs took stephen jackson back after he went into the stands and beat people up.. I dont think theyd pass up on a top 15-20 GOAT player because he almost fought somebody once.

This.

[kurple]

who knows how the spurs "system" would have developed without duncan

silly giving pop all the credit

[joe]

A little trashtalk lol.. hes not rasheed wallace. Almost getting into a fight a few times in a 15+ year career.. hes not ron artest. KG has never been a selfish player, his biggest strength offensively is his passing and defensively hes one of the best help defenders and communicators ever.. this isnt allen iverson or something, KG is one of the most unselfish best without the ball players ever.

The spurs took stephen jackson back after he went into the stands and beat people up.. I dont think theyd pass up on a top 15-20 GOAT player because he almost fought somebody once.

The comparison is not KG vs Artest, it is KG vs Duncan. The entire Spurs way is based off Duncan's personality, which is almost the opposite of Garnett. Stephen Jackson was not the centerpiece of their franchise, KG would have been. Remove Duncan from the picture, and we have no idea what would happen. Would Pop stay? He says he will retire when Duncan does. Would all those foreign players find such great comfort with KG? Would Bruce Bowen go from okay to a lockdown player, citing Duncan as a huge mentor?

[Purch]

The funny thing is that people actually belive that the spurs system has been this consistent thing that Timmy hasn't had to adapt too.

Compare the 99' team to the 05 team to the 2014 team, and just examine the differences In the style of play

[tpols]

The comparison is not KG vs Artest, it is KG vs Duncan. The entire Spurs way is based off Duncan's personality, which is almost the opposite of Garnett. Stephen Jackson was not the centerpiece of their franchise, KG would have been. Remove Duncan from the picture, and we have no idea what would happen. Would Pop stay? He says he will retire when Duncan does. Would all those foreign players find such great comfort with KG? Would Bruce Bowen go from okay to a lockdown player, citing Duncan as a huge mentor?

KG isnt a bad guy though.. Im sure pop is going to run away from a drob/garnett combo.. because thered surely be better situations all throughout the league.

If KG was a me first player who wanted shots/took away from the team philosophy? Sure Id agree with you.. but hes not. Hes one of the best team players ever.. he gets loud sometimes, louder than duncan, but hes still all business and leads by example. Loudmouths are only intolerable when they arent producing.

Youre giving duncan way too much credit for the spurs becpoming everything they are today. Duncan was mentored by d-rob, a guy who was much greater than himself when he came into the league. He came up in a spurs team that was always very disciplined and defense oriented before he got there. There's no way a player like Kevin Garnett doesnt thrive in that situation.

[joe]

The funny thing is that people actually belive that the spurs system has been this consistent thing that Timmy hasn't had to adapt too.

Compare the 99' team to the 05 team to the 2014 team, and just examine the differences In the style of play

Duncan's versatility, both on the court and off, is a huge part of that. Can play PF and C, can post and shoot, willing to defer when its good for the team, the whole time staying humble, being clutch, hard working, great teammate, no off court drama. Duncan is one of the greatest players we will ever see.

[JohnnySic]

The underrating of Chris Webber continues unabated. :facepalm

[Pointguard]

Punching guys below the belt. You look like a cancer patient. Almost fighting Melo. Knucklehead. Great player but almost the anti-Spur.
All that stuff happened in absolute competitive fire.

Nothing wrong there.

Plus you have to realize that KG would have brought up under Pop. KG learned most of the game on his own, arguably developed more skills than any player at the pro level, and came up in a bad system. Duncan had Robinson, Pop, a culture, a developmental team system and a great front office. Duncan is getting credit for developing players now when that had nothing to do with him. Pop developes players. And KG would have had more guidance, instruction and team structure if he was in SA.

[T_L_P]

KG and Webber don't fit into the 98-05 system very well. If they had the current system their whole careers, multiple rings.

If the system changes the way it actually did, Webber wins maybe one (assuming the injuries still happen) and KG maybe two (04 and 07)

[Leroy Jetson]

One of the main thing I always hear about the Spurs is how to this day, Pop will yell at his stars when they mess up the same as a rookie. It all starts with Duncan, this top 10 all time players has always taken his lumps and set the example for the team. Would KG still accept that kind of coaching 5, 10, or even 15 years into his career? Would Pop still want to try?

Besides in 03 Duncan took on Shaq and Kobe practically by himself, no other stars on the team. In 04 KG had Sprewell and Casell as 2nd, and 3rd options (granted no superstars but still better than anything Duncan had) and lost to the same Laker team. Duncan>KG.

[T_L_P]

Couple of notes:

1.) Prime KG was assisted on way more of his baskets than TD (I think the figure was like 66% to 45%, I'll try and find it)

2.) Even though KG had good offensive help in 04, he only shot .508 TS% in the 1st round and .512 TS% in the 2nd, against the 13th and 21st ranked defenses (.518 in the CF against the Lakers though Cassell missed the series)

Meanwhile 03 Duncan shoots .584 against the 11th ranked defense, .575 against the 19th ranked defense, .603 against the 9th ranked defense, and .546 against the 1st ranked defense. And Duncan did this facing more defensive attention whilst being assisted on a lot less baskets.

The difference between a low-post anchor and Ewing/Karl Malone imitation is huge. Maybe that's why every big in the top 10 played inside-out, not vice versa.

[Dbrog]

I think Webber actually does better than KG in this scenario. Could you imagine that passing in Pops system? Fcking nuts! However, Webber is still very much a poormans Timmy D. I mean Duncan was basically Webber with KGs defense...which lets you see why Duncan was so insanely good and would regularly outplay them. Would they win chips? I think yes. Probably good chance of winning 2 honestly (99' and 07').

[Pointguard]

One of the main thing I always hear about the Spurs is how to this day, Pop will yell at his stars when they mess up the same as a rookie. It all starts with Duncan, this top 10 all time players has always taken his lumps and set the example for the team. Would KG still accept that kind of coaching 5, 10, or even 15 years into his career? Would Pop still want to try?
What evidence do you have that KG wouldn't take that type of coaching? He's never had problems with brand new coaches, bad coaches or confused coaches.


Besides in 03 Duncan took on Shaq and Kobe practically by himself, no other stars on the team. In 04 KG had Sprewell and Casell as 2nd, and 3rd options (granted no superstars but still better than anything Duncan had) and lost to the same Laker team. Duncan>KG.
That '03 team was far better than KG's '04 team - not remotely close. They had great defensive pieces on that Spurs team. And pieces work better when there is a communicator uniting their efforts.

Cassell didn't finish the year out with the team and Sprewell retired within two years. KG lead his team in nearly every category and the team was exceptionally weak after the fourth player and Wally was scared stiff and missing like crazy in the playoffs.

[tpols]

Couple of notes:

1.) Prime KG was assisted on way more of his baskets than TD (I think the figure was like 66% to 45%, I'll try and find it)

2.) Even though KG had good offensive help in 04, he only shot .508 TS% in the 1st round and .512 TS% in the 2nd, against the 13th and 21st ranked defenses (.518 in the CF against the Lakers though Cassell missed the series)

Meanwhile 03 Duncan shoots .584 against the 11th ranked defense, .575 against the 19th ranked defense, .603 against the 9th ranked defense, and .546 against the 1st ranked defense. And Duncan did this facing more defensive attention whilst being assisted on a lot less baskets.

The difference between a low-post anchor and Ewing/Karl Malone imitation is huge. Maybe that's why every big in the top 10 played inside-out, not vice versa.

KG and Duncan's career TS's are both at 55%.:confusedshrug:

When KG was paired with Ray and pierce(similar to manu/parker) he shot 59TS in a championship run.. which was a higher efficiency than Duncan has ever shot in any of his championship runs.

Theyre neck and neck in both ppg volume and total efficiency.. KG is a better/more skilled passer, and has higher assists totals, averages, percentages.


You can try and make it seem like duncan was on another level offensively than KG by cherrypicking a few playoff rounds from his time in minnesota, but the fact of the matter is KG was in a worse situation than Duncan for the majority of his career, and when he finally did get into a similar good situation, he beasted.. and made boston a perrenial contender, monster defensive team.

KG is a top 15ish GOAT playing for minnesota the majority of his career.. Tim Duncan is a top 10 GOAT playing for the spurs.. Those 5 or so spot difference is pretty much entirely made up by the fact that one played for a D level organization while the other played for an A+ that allowed him the opportunity to win more.

[Pointguard]

I think Webber actually does better than KG in this scenario. Could you imagine that passing in Pops system? Fcking nuts! However, Webber is still very much a poormans Timmy D. I mean Duncan was basically Webber with KGs defense...which lets you see why Duncan was so insanely good and would regularly outplay them. Would they win chips? I think yes. Probably good chance of winning 2 honestly (99' and 07').
Pops system wasn't a passing system until like 2011??? It was defensive until like 2008?

KG and Duncan's defense was very different.

Duncan and KG played as even as any two stars have ever played each other in their primes. KG had a miniscule edge.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

KG and Webber don't fit into the 98-05 system very well. If they had the current system their whole careers, multiple rings.

If the system changes the way it actually did, Webber wins maybe one (assuming the injuries still happen) and KG maybe two (04 and 07)

KG and Duncan are virtually the same player those seasons. The only difference being, as a handful of posters just mentioned, is team strength.

KG wins AT LEAST 3 rings with the Spurs. No doubt in my mind.

[ArbitraryWater]

KG would win in: ARGUABLY 2004, 2005, ARGUABLY 2008...

2007 because the Suns were better AND Duncan > KG that year (as most years)

[L.Kizzle]

Boys is sleeping on Webber. Just like Webb said on Open Court "KG, Duncan and Dirk know me real good ..."

I wanted to to hear more!

[rmt]

I find it laughable that people love to tout the Spurs "system" forgetting that for so many years the system was throw it in to Duncan, either wait for the double team and throw it out to a wide open 3 point shooter or if guarded one-on-one, get fouled or score.

Popovich had a 73-73 NBA record before the Spurs first championship run. There was NO system. There was the great defense of the Twin Towers and the offense aka - throw it in to Duncan and move out of the way. For a trip down memory lane - here's Duncan's first playoff game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB7XD8km7L0

As far as KG/Webber, their offense/defense is a bit different from the post-offense/defense of TD - imo, not as conducive to winning playoff games. And Webber was an *ss for not excusing himself off that next 10 list as Reggie did. No way is Webber greater than DWade or even KD.

[StephHamann]

Webber wins nothing

KG wins in 2005, 2007

[L.Kizzle]

And Webber was an *ss for not excusing himself off that next 10 list as Reggie did. No way is Webber greater than DWade or even KD.
How is he an ass, everyone voted for him on the show. Shaq didn't vote for Miller, that's what kept him off.

[rmt]

How is he an ass, everyone voted for him on the show. Shaq didn't vote for Miller, that's what kept him off.

Well, so much for their (especially Shaq's) opinion in Webber's case. C'mon - TMac and Penny on the 60 GOAT? And Reggie excused himself saying he didn't belong on the list.

When they got down to the last 2 empty spots, if you were Webber, you wouldn't excuse yourself knowing that DWade has carried a team to a championship and won 2 more as 2nd banana or KD has had a better career than you and he just turned 26 years old?

DWade
3x NBA Champion
Finals MVP
10x all-star
2x all-nba 1st team
3x all-nba 2nd
3x all-nba 3rd
3x all-defensive 2nd team
scoring champ

Durant
MVP
5x all-star
5x all-nba 1st team
4x scoring champ
NBA finalist

Webber
5x all-star
1x all-nba 1st team
3x all-nba 2nd team
1x all-nba 3rd team

[T_L_P]

KG and Duncan's career TS's are both at 55%.:confusedshrug:

When KG was paired with Ray and pierce(similar to manu/parker) he shot 59TS in a championship run.. which was a higher efficiency than Duncan has ever shot in any of his championship runs.

Theyre neck and neck in both ppg volume and total efficiency.. KG is a better/more skilled passer, and has higher assists totals, averages, percentages.


You can try and make it seem like duncan was on another level offensively than KG by cherrypicking a few playoff rounds from his time in minnesota, but the fact of the matter is KG was in a worse situation than Duncan for the majority of his career, and when he finally did get into a similar good situation, he beasted.. and made boston a perrenial contender, monster defensive team.

KG is a top 15ish GOAT playing for minnesota the majority of his career.. Tim Duncan is a top 10 GOAT playing for the spurs.. Those 5 or so spot difference is pretty much entirely made up by the fact that one played for a D level organization while the other played for an A+ that allowed him the opportunity to win more.


Playoffs mean a hell of a lot more than the regular season, bro.

98-07 Duncan is .560 TS%. 99-04 KG is .513 TS%.

And like I said, Duncan shot more efficiently even though he was assisted on a lot less buckets and got double teamed more. Of course 3rd option KG is gonna shoot much higher. But like his ex-teammate Rasho said, he needed a Paul Pierce on offense to win, a guy who would take the clutch shots. Duncan won the majority of his championships leading his team in scoring (all of them in his prime).

He was in a good offensive situation in 04. I'm not cherrypicking stats; he shot like that his entire T-Wolves career, but if I posted those numbers you'd talk about situations. Well, when he had a good situation he still shot just as mediocre.

EDIT: when you said KG was more efficient in 08, again, I thought you meant in the Playoffs. 4 of Duncan's 5 title runs were better than .542 TS%; the only one that wasn't was 05, the one where Manu was the best player and the one where most Spurs fan call out Duncan offensively, because he sucked for a star. I'm holding KG to the same standard.

[Artillery]

open court's latest episode got me thinking about webber being left out of everyone's next 10 (while duncan and kg were safely ranked because of rings).

say webber (OR kg) were to replace duncan and start his career in san Antonino, the exact year duncan was drafted. how many championships does he win with david robinson and popovich? how many does he win with manu/parker/bowen and popovich?

with webber and kg, they flourished in multiple systems with different coaches. how is that NOT a testament to their INDIVIDUAL greatness? meanwhile, duncan has been nurtured by pop and is totally ingrained systematically - and its worked. they couldnt be more successful together. ive seen duncan play in multiple all star, international (anyone see that imbound pass to manu yesterday? smh) and olympic events, though - and the guy is totally ****ing clueless, looking like dr frankenstein's monster out there. the antithesis of a pickup player.

i just dont think much separated webber and kg from duncan, aside from injuries and help. bottom line , cwebb in SA wins at least 4 titles and is cemented as a next 10 player (hell, with his talent, a top 10-15 player all time).

and thus, the flaw in ring counting

Lebron, Wade, Carter would all win at least five rings with Phil Jackson. Hell, even Richard Jefferson would three-peat playing next to prime Shaq.

[AirFederer]

Duncan better than both easy anyways

[PsychoBe]

Lebron, Wade, Carter would all win at least five rings with Phil Jackson. Hell, even Richard Jefferson would three-peat playing next to prime Shaq.

stop it before i get the mods.

[Artillery]

stop it before i get the mods.

Just stating the truth. Prime Shaq and GOAT coach PJ were the cornerstones of that team. You could have replaced Kobe with Rip Hamilton and that team still three-peats.

[chazzy]

Just stating the truth. Prime Shaq and GOAT coach PJ were the cornerstones of that team. You could have replaced Kobe with Rip Hamilton and that team still three-peats.
Even though they went to multiple elimination games with a much superior player? Those guys can't playmake or score or defend on 3peat Kobe's level. The margin of error wasn't very big in 00 and 02, and 01 was dominant because of the 2 headed monster.

[mehyaM24]

I find it laughable that people love to tout the Spurs "system" forgetting that for so many years the system was throw it in to Duncan, either wait for the double team and throw it out to a wide open 3 point shooter or if guarded one-on-one, get fouled or score.


Popovich had a 73-73 NBA record before the Spurs first championship run. There was NO system. There was the great defense of the Twin Towers and the offense aka - throw it in to Duncan and move out of the way. For a trip down memory lane - here's Duncan's first playoff game.[/quote]

that 73-73 record is greatly skewed by david robinson's injury (he practically missed the entire season). no head coach is seriously competing for a title without a franchise caliber player.

once robinson was healthy, the spurs immediately contended.

without duncan, since the 2002-03 season, the spurs also have a .700+ record. in other words, they aren't missing a beat (parker and manu have been spurs' most valuable players for at least 8 years now. i would argue since 2005).

given the success the spurs have had, and how brutal of a player duncan is outside the system (evidenced by his international/olympic play), i would have to say kg wins 6 titles. webber isn't as dynamic so the safe route is 4-5.

[mehyaM24]

Lebron, Wade, Carter would all win at least five rings with Phil Jackson. Hell, even Richard Jefferson would three-peat playing next to prime Shaq.

lebron would have won every season he paired up with prime shaq. there would be NO QUESTION as to who the GOAT is. try 7-8 titles and at least 3 more regular season mvps.

however, this thread isn't about that. please stay on topic, sir.

[NBAplayoffs2001]

Webber in Pops system is freakin nasty.

agreed increase his defensive intensity and webber was a sick passer for a big guy.

[T_L_P]

I swear every single Duncan hater posts a bunch of hyperbole, with nothing to back it up. Most haters can use stats and things, not the OP though.

How on Earth would C-Webb win 5 when he played like 5 full seasons?

His only case here is Duncan's Olympic play (he wrote international/Olympic when they are the same thing).

So because Duncan under performed in the 04 Olympics, he's a replaceable system player? We're talking about NBA ball here.

The 02 Kings won 61 games even though Webber played just 54 himself.

The 09 Celtics won a fcking Playoff series even though KG missed it (:oldlol:), and they took the eventual Finalist to 7 games as well. The Spurs are 1-4 in the Playoffs without Duncan

EDIT: and what's this about the Spurs winning 70% without Duncan? From his rookie year to 07 they won 49% without him. From 08-11 they won 52% without him. And from 12-14 they've won 65% without him (so they only chugged on when Duncan left his prime).

Meanwhile Orlando had a better win% without Shaq (61% with him and 70% without him, a record of 23-10) So I guess he's just as replaceable, no?

Also, just an FYI: Duncan has lead the Spurs in PER, WS and RAPM since 05. You have to make the case for Manu and Parker, because all the evidence points to it being Duncan. Then again, the OP thinks his word is gospel and he doesn't need to back it up...

[rmt]

Popovich had a 73-73 NBA record before the Spurs first championship run. There was NO system. There was the great defense of the Twin Towers and the offense aka - throw it in to Duncan and move out of the way. For a trip down memory lane - here's Duncan's first playoff game.

that 73-73 record is greatly skewed by david robinson's injury (he practically missed the entire season). no head coach is seriously competing for a title without a franchise caliber player.

once robinson was healthy, the spurs immediately contended.

without duncan, since the 2002-03 season, the spurs also have a .700+ record. in other words, they aren't missing a beat (parker and manu have been spurs' most valuable players for at least 8 years now. i would argue since 2005).

given the success the spurs have had, and how brutal of a player duncan is outside the system (evidenced by his international/olympic play), i would have to say kg wins 6 titles. webber isn't as dynamic so the safe route is 4-5.

Below are at least 4 seasons where your (bolded) statement is incorrect. I suggest that you check basketballreference.com to back up your statement before you type.

2004-05 Regular Season
Duncan 20.3 pts /11.1 rebs / 2.7 asst / 2.6 blks 49.6%
Parker 16.6 pts / 6.1 asst 48.2%
Manu 16 pts / 4.4 rebs 47.1%

2005 Playoffs
Duncan 23.6 pts /12.4 rebs / 2.7 asst / 2.3 blks 46.4%
Parker 17.2 pts / 4.3 asst 45.4%
Manu 20.8 pts / 5.8 rebs 50.7%

2005-06 Regular Season
Duncan 18.6 pts / 11 rebs / 3.2 asst / 2 blks 48.4%
Parker 18.9 pts / 5.8 asst 54.8% even in scoring but TD has BIG edge in defense
Manu 15.1 pts / 3.6 asst 46.2%

2006 Playoffs
Duncan 25.8 pts / 10.5 rebs / 3.3 asst / 1.9 blks 57.3%
Parker 21.1 pts / 3.8 asst 46%
Manu 18.4 pts / 4.5 rebs 48.4%

2006-07 Regular Season
Duncan 20 pts / 10.6 rebs / 3.4 asst / 2.4 blks 54.6%
Parker 18.6 pts / 5.5 assts 52%
Manu 16.5 pts / 4.4 rebs 46.4%

2007 Playoffs
Duncan 22.2 pts / 11.5 rebs / 3.3 asst / 3.1 blks 52.1%
Parker 20.8 pts / 5.8 asst 48%
Manu 16.7 pts / 5.5 rebs 40.1%

2009-10 Regular Season
Duncan 17.9 pts / 10.1 rebs / 3.2 asst / 1.5 blks 51.8%
Parker 16 pts / 5.7 assts 48.7%
Manu 16.5 pts / 4.9 assts 44.1%

2010 Playoffs
Duncan 19 pts / 9.9 rebs / 2.6 asst / 1.7 blks 52% again scoring even with Manu but BIG edge on defense
Parker 17.3 pts / 5.4 asst 47.4%
Manu 19.4 pts / 6 asst 41.4%

[mehyaM24]

this has nothing to do with individual numbers (i can point out big games and series where manu outscored and outshot duncan). . tim duncan on his own is a better player than parker. same goes for manu. parker and manu, as a combo, make up the spurs' back court, however - and the spurs' backcourt have been THE biggest reason for their success. everybody knows this.

[T_L_P]

this has nothing to do with individual numbers. duncan on his own is a better player than parker. same goes for manu. parker and manu, as a combo, mak up the spurs' back court. the spurs' backcourt has been THE biggest reason for their success. everybody knows this.

Same shit you did last time we had this debate. Avoiding my posts because they prove your little scenario wrong.

Orlando won more without prime Shaq. The Spurs have never won more without Duncan, even when he's 38 years old. :roll:

Glad we got this settled though. :cheers:

[mehyaM24]

Webber in Pops system is freakin nasty.
his passing was better than duncan's. his scoring skills were a notch above too. webber has a good head on his shoulders (high iq). i have little doubt he would THRIVE with drob and popovich. i say they win 2 titles.

the manu/parker era is basically sacramento on steroids with better defense and more poise. assuming webb is healthy, they would desecrate the league to the tune of multiple titles. how long their reign would last, i am not sure.

[Nowitness]

chris webber win 1 and kevin wins 2. two very good pfs. :applause:

[AlphaWolf24]

speaking about Webber...

I don't think he has anywhere near the same impact in the Spurs System...

Webber always seemed (IMO) supremely talented...but lacked Fundamental's / true understanding of the game.

He flourished on teams where he didn't rely on a "system" ...or roles.....Webber's always played better when he didn't have to think ....just play.

First He had amazing hands, Don Nelson would draw up play's where Billy Owens would throw a Pass off the backboard ( from the top of the key) and let Webber catch it in the post:wtf: ( look at footage of him at Michigan he caught everything Rose/King would create)....He also had a great ability to "out 2nd jump" his opponent and overpower in the post....

- He was gifted great Hands and core strength......but he fundamental's/being a cerebral player was not his strong point...( Contrary to Duncan....who IMO is one of the smartest cerebral basketball players ever)

- On top of all of it...Webber always seemed not really comfortable as being the team leader or having that responsibility ....( again, contrary to Duncan who has laser focus on the court and prolly the best pure leader in the NBA)

- Does he play better on the Spurs?....maybe.....He's a supremely gifted Basketball player.....but Tim Duncan is one of the greatest players and maybe the most Fundamentally sound Big Man I ever seen......He has a Focus and a desire to compete 2nd to no one....

2 important attributes that IMO Webber did not have.

[JellyBean]

open court's latest episode got me thinking about webber being left out of everyone's next 10 (while duncan and kg were safely ranked because of rings).

say webber (OR kg) were to replace duncan and start his career in san Antonino, the exact year duncan was drafted. how many championships does he win with david robinson and popovich? how many does he win with manu/parker/bowen and popovich?

with webber and kg, they flourished in multiple systems with different coaches. how is that NOT a testament to their INDIVIDUAL greatness? meanwhile, duncan has been nurtured by pop and is totally ingrained systematically - and its worked. they couldnt be more successful together. ive seen duncan play in multiple all star, international (anyone see that imbound pass to manu yesterday? smh) and olympic events, though - and the guy is totally ****ing clueless, looking like dr frankenstein's monster out there. the antithesis of a pickup player.

i just dont think much separated webber and kg from duncan, aside from injuries and help. bottom line , cwebb in SA wins at least 4 titles and is cemented as a next 10 player (hell, with his talent, a top 10-15 player all time).

and thus, the flaw in ring counting

As a KG fan, I have always believed and stated that if KG was with the Spurs and Timmy was with my beloved Timberwolves, we would be saying that KG was probably the greatest power forward of all-time! If all things were the same; KG's work ethic, offensive and defensive ability, intensity, and his desire to get better, he could have 3-4 rings with the Spurs under Pop. That would have been pretty interesting and scary. I can see C-Webb getting 2-3 rings as well with the Spurs and their system.

[rmt]

this has nothing to do with individual numbers (i can point out big games and series where manu outscored and outshot duncan). . tim duncan on his own is a better player than parker. same goes for manu. parker and manu, as a combo, make up the spurs' back court, however - and the spurs' backcourt have been THE biggest reason for their success. everybody knows this.

Either you have only been watching the Spurs for the last couple of years or your memory is faulty. Throughout the first 4 championships, the Spurs' calling card has been DEFENSE - of which Duncan is/has been the anchor. The offense has evolved from throw it into the post to Duncan to pick and roll with TP/Manu and Duncan to the much touted "system" which emphasizes ball movement and interchangeable parts. Regardless of the offense, Spurs are going nowhere without the interior defense of Duncan and now perimeter defense of Leonard and Green.

[bukowski81]

The system people are refering to developed because Duncan started to slow down. At the beggining they didnt play like this, the offense consisted to just throw it to Duncan. The kind of basketball they are playing today is very recent, for most of Duncan prime they were considered dirty and boring.

To answer the question, how would Webber and KG will do in a franchise that has never won anything and has an unexperienced coach?, I think similar to how they did in Minnesota and Golden State/Sacramento.

[kkb_12]

It is Duncan personality that allowed championship teams to be built in San Antonio.

What makes you think that Webber / Pop would work any better than Webber / Don Nelson ? Kevin Garnett was complete jerk towards his teammates with Timerwolves - hit Sczerbiak, hit the Rickert he would not last in San Antonio.

[Smoke117]

Considering Webber is not even 2/3rds as good as Tim Duncan or Garnett...probably not to well wit him. He's a ****ing joke defensively compared to them and frankly the least reliable scorer considering he had NO post game at all and was mostly a face up jump shooter (with a below average shot), an average at best ugly hook shot, and the points he got rebounding. I just don't get why people overrate him so much. They love to bring up how he averaged 27.1ppg without mentioning how he did that on 23.4 shots and a pathetic .512ts%...Allen Iverson before the rule change that made it all easier was doing that every season. Webber was basically as efficient in his highest scoring year as Allen Iverson...bravo...wow...:applause: :bowdown: :roll:

[tpols]

speaking about Webber...

I don't think he has anywhere near the same impact in the Spurs System...

Webber always seemed (IMO) supremely talented...but lacked Fundamental's / true understanding of the game.

He flourished on teams where he didn't rely on a "system" ...or roles.....Webber's always played better when he didn't have to think ....just play.

First He had amazing hands, Don Nelson would draw up play's where Billy Owens would throw a Pass off the backboard ( from the top of the key) and let Webber catch it in the post:wtf: ( look at footage of him at Michigan he caught everything Rose/King would create)....He also had a great ability to "out 2nd jump" his opponent and overpower in the post....

- He was gifted great Hands and core strength......but he fundamental's/being a cerebral player was not his strong point...( Contrary to Duncan....who IMO is one of the smartest cerebral basketball players ever)

- On top of all of it...Webber always seemed not really comfortable as being the team leader or having that responsibility ....( again, contrary to Duncan who has laser focus on the court and prolly the best pure leader in the NBA)

- Does he play better on the Spurs?....maybe.....He's a supremely gifted Basketball player.....but Tim Duncan is one of the greatest players and maybe the most Fundamentally sound Big Man I ever seen......He has a Focus and a desire to compete 2nd to no one....

2 important attributes that IMO Webber did not have.

:cheers: