Scottie Pippen vs. John Havlicek

[oarabbus]

In one corner we got Scottie Pippen
http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/24/files/2010/04/glove.jpg

6 Championships
7 Allstar selections
3 All-NBA 1st team
NBA Steals Leader
8x defensive first team

Career stats: 16/6/5 with 2spg (although lowered due to his twilight seasons)
Best season (he has several roughly like this): 22/9/5.5/3stl
And don't forget amazing point forward ability, all-time GOAT-level defensive ability (non-big), basically one of the most complete non-GOATs to ever play :bowdown:



And we have John Havlicek:
http://www.hoopsvibe.com/images/stories/havlicek_stole_the_ball.jpg
8 Championships
1 FMVP
13 Allstar selections
4 All-NBA 1st team
5x defensive first team
Celtics all time leading scorer (not an all NBA award but impressive nonetheless)

Career stats: 21/6/5 (steals and blocks not recorded for most of his career)
Best season: 29/9/7.5
And don't forget great handling/passing and rebounding ability, very good defense (not quite on the level of Pippen), and a contender for GOAT motor.

"In 1974, Bill Russell summed up Havlicek's career by saying "He is the best all-around player I ever saw." :bowdown:



I think I have to go with the legend... Hondo on this one. Real tough to choose but the FMVP does it for me.

[Smoke117]

You could probably find half a dozen threads on this in the first 30 pages. It's always been a retarded comparison, because the majority of people who have actually seen Havlicek play is maybe 5% on this board? Stats is all well and nice, but you can't compare players in general you haven't seen. (havlicek and Frankly Scottie really...i mean he was 34 already and past his prime in 2000, 14 years ago) It is just going to come down to numbers and no actual eye test. If you know anything about basketball, you know there is no true comparison unless you've given the eye test (no it is not fool proof, as a lot idiots have retard eyes) to each player and for a good amount of time.

[c5terror]

In one corner we got Scottie Pippen
http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/24/files/2010/04/glove.jpg

6 Championships
7 Allstar selections
3 All-NBA 1st team
NBA Steals Leader
8x defensive first team

Career stats: 16/6/5 with 2spg (although lowered due to his twilight seasons)
Best season (he has several roughly like this): 22/9/5.5/3stl
And don't forget amazing point forward ability, all-time GOAT-level defensive ability (non-big), basically one of the most complete non-GOATs to ever play :bowdown:



And we have John Havlicek:
http://www.hoopsvibe.com/images/stories/havlicek_stole_the_ball.jpg
8 Championships
1 FMVP
13 Allstar selections
4 All-NBA 1st team
5x defensive first team
Celtics all time leading scorer (not an all NBA award but impressive nonetheless)

Career stats: 21/6/5 (steals and blocks not recorded for most of his career)
Best season: 29/9/7.5
And don't forget great handling/passing and rebounding ability, very good defense (not quite on the level of Pippen), and a contender for GOAT motor.

"In 1974, Bill Russell summed up Havlicek's career by saying "He is the best all-around player I ever saw." :bowdown:



I think I have to go with the legend... Hondo on this one. Real tough to choose but the FMVP does it for me.

I wasn't able to see more of Havlicek games so i can't judge him..
but due to my bias towards 80's-90's bulls, ill pick pippen..

[bizil]

GOAT and peak wise give me Hondo! In many ways Hondo was the precursor to what Pip represented later down the road. Point forward type skills and lockdown type D. Pip added Dr. J type size and athletic ability to it. The main thing that separates Hondo was he was a true alpha dog level player while Pippen never was. There is a reason why Hondo is a top 15-20 GOAT type player and top 4 GOAT SF.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Obviously I didn't see Havlicek play live and have seen very little footage of him but there are only like 15 players i've seen play (either on tape or live) I'd for sure take over Scottie Pippen.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Pippen:

Career stats: 16/6/5 with 2spg (although lowered due to his twilight seasons)

Havlicek:

Career stats: 21/6/5 (steals and blocks not recorded for most of his career)


They both played until age 37, so the qualifier for Pippen is moot imo. :confusedshrug:

[pudman13]

The main thing that separates Hondo was he was a true alpha dog level player while Pippen never was.

Absolutely true. Pippen obviously has a size advantage, but if it was a key game and a key moment I'd rather have the ball in Hondo's hands, and when it comes to making a key defensive play, despite Pippen's reputation I say it's a wash.

This is a weird comparison, really.

[3ball]

After watching that "Next 10" show, it appears to be common knowledge among some former players that Pippen was distinctly overrated..

So I'm going with the other guy anytime it's close with Pippen - give me Hondo.

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/61d58f40c5cf8604037d2faf4fa1c7f5.gif

[La Frescobaldi]

ish with a balanced view?? It's a world gone mad...

[mehyaM24]

pippen: he had no weaknesses.

as soon as pip came to town, he turned the bulls franchise around. a bulls franchise who were recently just 1-9 in the playoffs.

the all around exploits he and lebron were/are cabable of = truly understated.

[DatAsh]

Havlicek was the better player. I also agree with saying they were on different tiers defensively; both are in that very top tier of perimeter defenders.

[JellyBean]

GOAT and peak wise give me Hondo! In many ways Hondo was the precursor to what Pip represented later down the road. Point forward type skills and lockdown type D. Pip added Dr. J type size and athletic ability to it. The main thing that separates Hondo was he was a true alpha dog level player while Pippen never was. There is a reason why Hondo is a top 15-20 GOAT type player and top 4 GOAT SF.

This right here. Hondo gets my vote.

[oarabbus]

After watching that "Next 10" show, it appears to be common knowledge among some former players that Pippen was distinctly overrated..

So I'm going with the other guy anytime it's close with Pippen - give me Hondo.

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/61d58f40c5cf8604037d2faf4fa1c7f5.gif


What exactly is that? Although I'm not sure I should even bother since you are one of the biggest Jordan stans on this board and your agenda is clear. Anything to prop up Jordan, especially shitting on his teammates.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

GOAT and peak wise give me Hondo! In many ways Hondo was the precursor to what Pip represented later down the road. Point forward type skills and lockdown type D. Pip added Dr. J type size and athletic ability to it. The main thing that separates Hondo was he was a true alpha dog level player while Pippen never was. There is a reason why Hondo is a top 15-20 GOAT type player and top 4 GOAT SF.
LOL @ Hondo being top 15-20 GOAT or top 4 GOAT SF

Who is he better than out of these players

MJ
Russell
KAJ
Hakeem
Shaq
Bird
Kobe
Magic
Wilt
KG
Timmy
Dirk
Moses
Oscar
Jerry
Karl
Chuck
Robinson
Lebron
DrJ
Wade

[JimmyMcAdocious]

What exactly is that?

Open Court.

But it was pretty much Zeke who talked shit about Pippen and Zeke is always salty.

[oarabbus]

LOL @ Hondo being top 15-20 GOAT or top 4 GOAT SF

Who is he better than out of these players

MJ
Russell
KAJ
Hakeem
Shaq
Bird
Kobe
Magic
Wilt
KG
Timmy
Dirk
Moses
Oscar
Jerry
Karl
Chuck
Robinson
Lebron
DrJ
Wade


:kobe: get outta here

How many of those guys have 8 rings and an FMVP behind their name. Wades got one but Pippen > Wade

and Hondo > Pippen

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

:kobe: get outta here

How many of those guys have 8 rings and an FMVP behind their name. Wades got one but Pippen > Wade

and Hondo > Pippen
Wade is way better than Pippen WTF u smokin:roll: :roll: :roll:
he has 8 rings b/c he played on stacked teams and most of the time he wasnt the best player and even the 2nd best on others
Tony Parker has a FMVP and 4 rings...........so hes better than Wade and Pippen right:lol :lol

[oarabbus]

Wade is way better than Pippen WTF u smokin:roll: :roll: :roll:
he has 8 rings b/c he played on stacked teams

Russell said he was the greatest all around player he ever saw.

But I guess Bill Russell wasn't that good either since he played on stacked teams. Sam Jones wasn't that good, he just played on stacked teams. None of those Celtics were actually good, they just played on stacked teams :lol





and most of the time he wasnt the best player and even the 2nd best on others
Tony Parker has a FMVP and 4 rings...........so hes better than Wade and Pippen right:lol :lol


No he isn't but John Havlicek is. He played with Russell for 6 years. Then won two more rings without him so your argument doesn't even make sense.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Russell said he was the greatest all around player he ever saw.

But I guess Bill Russell wasn't that good either since he played on stacked teams. Sam Jones wasn't that good, he just played on stacked teams. None of those Celtics were actually good, they just played on stacked teams :lol

hes good and so is sam. Not top 20 good thats reserved for players who can actually make dominant impact as the man. Hondo is top 50 tho. Sam Jones top 100








No he isn't but John Havlicek is. He played with Russell for 6 years. Then won two more rings without him so your argument doesn't even make sense.
Cowens was considered better than Hondo
he is a Paul Pierce level player

[oarabbus]

hes good and so is sam. Not top 20 good thats reserved for players who can actually make dominant impact as the man. Hondo is top 50 tho. Sam Jones top 100


Alright that's fair. I never said personally that he was a top 20 GOAT, just that I'd take him over Pippen.

[DatAsh]

Alright that's fair. I never said personally that he was a top 20 GOAT, just that I'd take him over Pippen.

I see Hondo as a top 20 player. He'll probably pushed out eventually, but for now I don't see 20 players that were clearly better.

[bizil]

hes good and so is sam. Not top 20 good thats reserved for players who can actually make dominant impact as the man. Hondo is top 50 tho. Sam Jones top 100







Cowens was considered better than Hondo
he is a Paul Pierce level player

For one, GOAT status factors:

Talent
Longevity being great
Numbers
Solo accolades
Team Accolades
Impact on the L (redefining a position, face of the league, box office, etc)

When u look at my criteria, Hondo as IT ALL IN SPADES!! In terms of talent, he was point forward caliber, a lockdown defender, AND an alpha dog level scorer. Hondo could actually play AND defend PG, SG, and SF if needed. That had NEVER BEEN SEEN BEFORE in the NBA from a SF. So that aspect covers my impact because he redefined the SF position.

In terms of numbers, he has 26,395 points, 6114 dimes, and 8007 rebounds. That indicates tremendous versatility and skills level. The only guy who can top that AND PROVIDE lockdown D is Bron! I'm sure Bron will eclipse those numbers, but Bron and Hondo are in a class of their own among forwards in that realm. Think about that, ONLY TWO SF'S EVER will have those numbers AND were lockdown defenders!

Solo and team accolades were already mentioned brilliantly by the OP. So with all this going for him, how could Hondo NOT BE a top 15-20 player and top 4 GOAT SF! Peak value is only PART OF THE EQUATION!! U have to look at the ENTIRE RESUME FOR GOAT! Because peak value wise, T-Mac is a top 4 SG of all time in my book. But GOAT wise, u can't put him up that high. Guys like Robinson, Barkley, Malone, Isiah, etc. were all beasts. But Hondo's total resume trumps them. If u think they were better peak wise then cool! But GOAT is the most valuable list and Hondo has them beat QUITE FRANKLY!!!

[La Frescobaldi]

hes good and so is sam. Not top 20 good thats reserved for players who can actually make dominant impact as the man. Hondo is top 50 tho. Sam Jones top 100







Cowens was considered better than Hondo
he is a Paul Pierce level player

Absurd to think Havlicek and Jones were not totally, ferociously dominant.