So who is the third best SG of all time?

[Random_Guy]

Assuming most of us have
1. Jordan
2. Kobe

Who do you have for number three?
I personally have the logo though I can see an argument for Dwade.

thoughts?

[Nowitness]

1. Jordan
2. west
3. Kobe

[Demitri98]

Tie between Jerry West and Wade.

[StephHamann]

Jordan










Kobe









3AWest
3BWade

[G0ATbe]

1. Kobe



2. Wade

3. Jordan

[kurple]

kobe

[Smook A.]

Wade/West

[SOD 21]

1. Jordan
2. Bryant
3. West
4. Wade
5. Drexler or Iverson

[New World Order]

Some view Jerry West as a combo guard who actually spent a lot of time playing point guard. So they tend to include him in point guard rankings.

If you view Jerry West more as a shooting guard than a point or combo guard, then I'd say:

1) Michael Jordan
2) Kobe Bryant
3) Jerry West

If you do not include Jerry West as a shooting guard, then it becomes a battle between Dwyane Wade and Sam Jones (teammate of Bill Russell). Sam Jones has become the forgotten man of history - very underrated.

[Demitri98]

Some view Jerry West as a combo guard who actually spent a lot of time playing point guard. So they tend to include him in point guard rankings.

If you view Jerry West more as a shooting guard than a point or combo guard, then I'd say:

1) Michael Jordan
2) Kobe Bryant
3) Jerry West

If you do not include Jerry West as a shooting guard, then it becomes a battle between Dwyane Wade and Sam Jones (teammate of Bill Russell). Sam Jones has become the forgotten man of history - very underrated.

8 year old account with 58 posts...who's alt are you? :biggums:

[Random_Guy]

Some view Jerry West as a combo guard who actually spent a lot of time playing point guard. So they tend to include him in point guard rankings.

If you view Jerry West more as a shooting guard than a point or combo guard, then I'd say:

1) Michael Jordan
2) Kobe Bryant
3) Jerry West

If you do not include Jerry West as a shooting guard, then it becomes a battle between Dwyane Wade and Sam Jones (teammate of Bill Russell). Sam Jones has become the forgotten man of history - very underrated.
haha this, i was just reading some info about shooting guards and sam jones and guys like hal greer have literally been forgotten.
still i picked the logo because dude is the ****ing guy on the nba trademark, and his accolades are better than wades. IMO i think Wade's peak play trumps west;s though. Also like you mentioned, some have him as a point guard.

[Random_Guy]

8 year old account with 58 posts...who's alt are you? :biggums:
shit wait i just noticed this :biggums:
edit: i feel honored :bowdown:

[SOD 21]

Some view Jerry West as a combo guard who actually spent a lot of time playing point guard. So they tend to include him in point guard rankings.

If you view Jerry West more as a shooting guard than a point or combo guard, then I'd say:

1) Michael Jordan
2) Kobe Bryant
3) Jerry West

If you do not include Jerry West as a shooting guard, then it becomes a battle between Dwyane Wade and Sam Jones (teammate of Bill Russell). Sam Jones has become the forgotten man of history - very underrated.

Yeah, I always consider West more of a shooting guard.

But by today's standards he'd be a PG due to his size of 6'2" and 180 lbs. He is similar in size to Steph Curry.

[Random_Guy]

Yeah, I always consider West more of a shooting guard.

But by today's standards he'd be a PG due to his size of 6'2" and 180 lbs. He is similar in size to Steph Curry.
being honest since ive never seen west play, how good was his shooting?
and what was his main weapon to score?

[3peated]

west could not **** with prime wade or iverson, or probably even drexler, yall name droppin ass dudes is lame

[SOD 21]

being honest since ive never seen west play, how good was his shooting?
and what was his main weapon to score?

I am not old enough to ever have seen him play live and only seen him on ESPN classics, NBA TV and YouTube clips.

But he was an exceptional scorer in transition, had a great midrange game, he could beat players both off the dribble, one-on-one and also moved very well without the ball. With the shooting range he probably would have benefited from the three-point line.

I consider him and Dewayne Wade a virtual tie for the third spot, it could go either way between those two.

[Random_Guy]

west could not **** with prime wade or iverson, or probably even drexler, yall name droppin ass dudes is lame
:facepalm he can put the ball in the hoop.
and for a guy that can "not **** with prime wade and iverson", he averaged 27 points again, behind only mj, baylor and wilt.
show the man some respect

[SHAQisGOAT]

Either West or Wade.

[pudman13]

Assuming most of us have
1. Jordan
2. Kobe

Who do you have for number three?
I personally have the logo though I can see an argument for Dwade.

thoughts?

Actually, I have Jerry West #2.

[pudman13]

Yeah, I always consider West more of a shooting guard.

But by today's standards he'd be a PG due to his size of 6'2" and 180 lbs. He is similar in size to Steph Curry.

West is actually 6'4 1/2" He said so in his biography.

[Random_Guy]

Actually, I have Jerry West #2.
that is definitely debateable, just going for the majority here:cheers:
and who knows? in 30 years the logo will still be the logo, but the new generation will probably laugh at the accolodes of the player we deem so great today:lol
kobe and bron would be the next generation's wilt

[SOD 21]

West is actually 6'4 1/2" He said so in his biography.

That is different from what I have always read from multiple sources from Wikipedia, basketball reference.com and the official NBA website, which all have him listed as 6'2" tall. It seems like I've heard people say that he was 6 foot three, although I didn't find that.

But either way, he was an all-time great player and a deserving top 15 player of all-time and top three or four shooting guard ever.

[VengefulAngel]

Not impartial here, big Wade stan.


So Wade.

[SOD 21]

that is definitely debateable, just going for the majority here:cheers:
and who knows? in 30 years the logo will still be the logo, but the new generation will probably laugh at the accolodes of the player we deem so great today:lol
kobe and bron would be the next generation's wilt

I had Kobe Bryant number three all-time at shooting guard up until he won those final two championships in 2009 and 2010 and that clearly moved him past Jerry West, at least my opinion.

[pnyozzzoo]

James Harden:confusedshrug:

[ZeN]

James Harden:confusedshrug:
:oldlol:

[FKAri]

Jerry Westbrook.

[pudman13]

That is different from what I have always read from multiple sources from Wikipedia, basketball reference.com and the official NBA website, which all have him listed as 6'2" tall. It seems like I've heard people say that he was 6 foot three, although I didn't find that.


I don't have the exact quote, but he said it something like this: "I'll let you in on a secret. I've always been listed at 6'2" and told people sometimes that I was 6'3", but the fact is that I'm actually 6'4 1/2"."

It appears that the reason he always lied about his height was that if people thought he was shorter, they would continue to be surprised by his long reach and his quick defense (and also, probably by the fact that he could get his jump shot over them.) People who saw West play regularly think that if they had compiled the stat back them he would probably be the NBA's all time leader in steals. The didn't start counting until his very last (and, other than his rookie season, statistically worst) season, and even at age 35 he averaged 2.6 steals per game.

[SuperPippen]

West. Only other name that should come up is Wade.

[pegasus]

Iverson

[Thorpesaurous]

I consider West a PG, but if you do consider him a SG he's almost certainly 3, with really Wade as his primary competition.

But if West is a SG, then you may be able to make a case for Oscar as a SG too. Then things get really wacky.

Sam Jones is really underrated historically by all accounts from both teammates and opponents. And he's a pure SG. And Hal Greer has gotten to the point where he's probably a big underrated too, but he's sometimes seen as a PG too.

I've met West too and I'd be shocked if he was any less than 6' 4".

[pudman13]

Sam Jones is really underrated historically by all accounts from both teammates and opponents

Jones is one of those guys who's almost impossible to assess because his statistics are all in the context of complete team basketball. It's like assessing a UNC basketball player on stats alone. He was the one who hit the clutch shots and who they turned to when they really need a basket. It seems to me that he's someone who could have scored as much as West if he felt the need to or if the team wanted him to.

Has anyone mentioned Earl Monroe, or is he not considered a SG?

[GrapeApe]

This may sound funny, but I consider West to be "greater" than Wade in terms of NBA history (especially being the logo), but I think Wade is the 3rd best SG and a better individual player. I have West ranked higher than Wade on my GOAT list.

[magic chiongson]

That is different from what I have always read from multiple sources from Wikipedia, basketball reference.com and the official NBA website, which all have him listed as 6'2" tall. It seems like I've heard people say that he was 6 foot three, although I didn't find that.

But either way, he was an all-time great player and a deserving top 15 player of all-time and top three or four shooting guard ever.




http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSjSkALhlNs9Gu70lpyS0mlabiAW46ug Jd74gp7ijwvWBTKUO4TPw

http://www.theforestlab.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/KObe-West1.jpg

http://www.photofile.com/SportsProducts/Photos/aanv151.jpg

[Random_Guy]

This may sound funny, but I consider West to be "greater" than Wade in terms of NBA history (especially being the logo), but I think Wade is the 3rd best SG and a better individual player. I have West ranked higher than Wade on my GOAT list.
not funny at all, in fact if we were talking about impact on the history alone, i would say jordan and west are 1a/1b.
its basically why west has an argument over wade imo.

[CavaliersFTW]

Wade isn't close to West

[Random_Guy]

Wade isn't close to West
impact on a game alone, who would you rather have?

[Cold soul]

1. Jordan
2. Bryant
3. West
4. Wade

To answer OP question Jerry West is 3rd greatest SG.

[CavaliersFTW]

impact on a game alone, who would you rather have?
The guy who can lead the league in assists, points, is always locked in on defense and actually can shoot the ball.

[SamuraiSWISH]

1) MJ
2) Kobe
3) West
4) Wade
5) Drexler

[WillC]

I consider West a PG, but if you do consider him a SG he's almost certainly 3, with really Wade as his primary competition.

But if West is a SG, then you may be able to make a case for Oscar as a SG too. Then things get really wacky.

Sam Jones is really underrated historically by all accounts from both teammates and opponents. And he's a pure SG. And Hal Greer has gotten to the point where he's probably a big underrated too, but he's sometimes seen as a PG too.

I've met West too and I'd be shocked if he was any less than 6' 4".

Your post makes little to no sense.

Oscar Robertson played PG his entire NBA career.

Jerry West played SG the majority of his pro career.

So listing Robertson as a SG and West as a PG makes no sense :facepalm

And no, Hal Greer is not seen as a PG. He played SG. Stop making stuff up! :wtf:

[CavaliersFTW]

Your post makes little to no sense.

Oscar Robertson played PG his entire NBA career.

Jerry West played PG the majority of his pro career.

Why should we list either of them as SGs? That makes no sense :facepalm

And no, Hal Greer is not seen as a PG. He played SG. Stop making stuff up! :wtf:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thoguht Jerry West played shooting guard or the off-guard spot the majority of his pro career, only on the early 70's Lakers did he start to get the designated point guard or primary ball handler designation/duties. Though he and Elgin did both share a lot more ball handling duties than any typical forward or off-guard would relative to most teams due to their talent (as with any great talent, they got lots of touches and would sometimes bring the ball up off a rebound). The 60's Lakers though definitely had a good rotation throughout the decade of designated point guards that West and Baylor played off of.

[Nick Young]

Manu Ginobili

[oarabbus]

west could not **** with prime wade or iverson, or probably even drexler, yall name droppin ass dudes is lame


:oldlol: West is #3 all time. Keep hating.

[AirFederer]

Wade

[aj1987]

Wade isn't close to West
True. Wade is probably a tire above West. West today would be a 18/4/4 (adjusted for pace and era) player at BEST.

Back to the topic, I'd rank West over Wade as well. Wade needs another 2 good seasons to be ranked over West.

[FPJ]

True. Wade is probably a tire above West. West today would be a 18/4/4 (adjusted for pace and era) player at BEST.

Back to the topic, I'd rank West over Wade as well. Wade needs another 2 good seasons to be ranked over West.

Ranking players will always be a grey area.

You can't take West from the 60's and put him in today's league. Players should be valued in their respected eras alone. The game evolves in every aspect.

[Nowitness]

Manu Ginobili

the playerd who was the best player on his team for one year?? :biggums:

[Random_Guy]

Ranking players will always be a grey area.

You can't take West from the 60's and put him in today's league. Players should be valued in their respected eras alone. The game evolves in every aspect.
i certainly agree with this, but the problem is even if you dont compare game style, you cant dismiss the fact that today the talent pool is much greater and competition is much stronger. though i have no doubt that stars back then would still perform well in todays league(though many would disagree with me), simply the construction of the league alone is different

[Thorpesaurous]

Your post makes little to no sense.

Oscar Robertson played PG his entire NBA career.

Jerry West played SG the majority of his pro career.

So listing Robertson as a SG and West as a PG makes no sense :facepalm

And no, Hal Greer is not seen as a PG. He played SG. Stop making stuff up! :wtf:


All three of those guys were score first ball handlers. Not really PGs. They were really combo guards if we're really trying to put a label on guys. And the point is that's why trying to rank things like this makes little sense.

[pudman13]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thoguht Jerry West played shooting guard or the off-guard spot the majority of his pro career, only on the early 70's Lakers did he start to get the designated point guard or primary ball handler designation/duties.

Everything I have read indicated this is the case, as does those 1963-4 and 1964-5 Laker documentaries. When people look at stats they assume the guy who leads the team in assists is a point guard, but when you have someone that great they not only make plays, but also handle the ball a whole lot. Jordan and Bird are examples.

Oscar was the main ballhandler all throughout his career. It's ridiculous to assume that he was ever anything but a point guard.

People also forget that Magic Johnson was mostly a SG for a good four years with the lakers, while Norm Nixon was on the team.

[ArbitraryWater]

Lol

West >> Wade

Anyway... It's between West/Kobe

[Akhenaten]

Could you imagine the ridicule a modern player would receive if he lost 8 times in the Finals?

That's mind-blowing to me, if Wade lost in 8 of 9 Finals the same people touting West would say Wade isn't even top 200 all-time because he lost so many times in the Finals.

Modern day players are held to such a higher standard, if Hakeem played in this era he would be eviscerated for losing in 5 straight first rounds, the ridicule Dirk got before winning would have been nothing compared.

[pudman13]

Could you imagine the ridicule a modern player would receive if he lost 8 times in the Finals?

That's mind-blowing to me, if Wade lost in 8 of 9 Finals the same people touting West would say Wade isn't even top 200 all-time because he lost so many times in the Finals.

Modern day players are held to such a higher standard, if Hakeem played in this era he would be eviscerated for losing in 5 straight first rounds, the ridicule Dirk got before winning would have been nothing compared.

Ever since the 80s, maybe because of more sports media, or maybe just because of how the game is broadcast (or written about), the NBA (and other pro sports) has really become much more about star worship than about it being a team sport. I'm not saying it's always played that way, but it certainly is viewed that way. One of the many results of this is individual players being praised or blamed for the successes or failures of their team.

That said, Lebron took a ton more heat for his Miami team's playoff failures than for his Cleveland team's playoff failures, so there's a tiny bit of balance in criticism (i.e. a big star should take a good team all the way but can't be blamed for being on a weak team.)

I know what you're saying--in today's media we'd probably have all sorts of people explaining just why Sam Jones is a better player than Jerry West...and poor Elgin Baylor...unlike West he didn't even win one.

[Dro]

west could not **** with prime wade or iverson, or probably even drexler, yall name droppin ass dudes is lame
:biggums:

[Psileas]

As it should have been made obvious till now, the real question isn't who's #3, but who's #4. With Wade having faded considerably pretty quickly and no-one else very close to Wade's legacy, the trio of Jordan-Kobe-West seems pretty inseparable for the years to come.

[GrapeApe]

As it should have been made obvious till now, the real question isn't who's #3, but who's #4. With Wade having faded considerably pretty quickly and no-one else very close to Wade's legacy, the trio of Jordan-Kobe-West seems pretty inseparable for the years to come.

Wade was being mentioned as the 3rd best SG of all time back in '11 when he was still in his prime. The next 3 years he averaged 21/5/5 on 52% while being a major contributor to 2 championships. His decline has become completely overexaggerated. Yes he's battled some injury issues, but through the '13 regular season he was still very much a superstar caliber player. I have no issue with anyone ranking West above Wade, and as I mentioned before I have West higher on my all time list, but to suggest it's not close is ridiculous.

[Champ]

Can Hondo be considered for this discussion?

Would you classify him as a 2 or 3?

[pudman13]

Can Hondo be considered for this discussion?

Would you classify him as a 2 or 3?

He played basically his whole career as a forward.

[WillC]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thoguht Jerry West played shooting guard or the off-guard spot the majority of his pro career, only on the early 70's Lakers did he start to get the designated point guard or primary ball handler designation/duties. Though he and Elgin did both share a lot more ball handling duties than any typical forward or off-guard would relative to most teams due to their talent (as with any great talent, they got lots of touches and would sometimes bring the ball up off a rebound). The 60's Lakers though definitely had a good rotation throughout the decade of designated point guards that West and Baylor played off of.

Indeed. You quoted my post seconds before I edited it. Typo.

[Dragonyeuw]

I'll say West, with Wade nipping at his heels just on the basis of peak play from 2005 to 2011. The SG position may be the only one where the top two positions are pretty unanimous, though..

[WillC]

All three of those guys were score first ball handlers. Not really PGs. They were really combo guards if we're really trying to put a label on guys. And the point is that's why trying to rank things like this makes little sense.

So you're trying to tell me that Oscar Robertson wasn't a true PG?

Oscar Robertson led the league in assists by a large margin. During his Cincinnati Royals career spanning the 1960s, Oscar Robertson averaged 10.3.apg for the decade. His closest rival over the same time period was Guy Rogers with an average of 7.9apg followed by Bob Cousy (7.2apg), Walt Frazier (6.8apg) and Lenny Wilkens (6.2apg).

But sure, a guy with 25% more assists than the second best passer in the league is "not really a PG" :facepalm

[That_Admiral]

Can Hondo be considered for this discussion?

Would you classify him as a 2 or 3?
definitely a 3

[Akhenaten]

Jordan
Wade/Kobe
AI
West
Drex

[pudman13]

But sure, a guy with 25% more assists than the second best passer in the league is "not really a PG" :facepalm

I explained this above, re: Bird, Jordan, West, etc... (Lebron too, I guess) None of them led the league in assists playing a different position, but they all did lead their teams in assists on several occasions.

But in Oscar's case, he was absolutely a point guard. Every single piece of footage of him I've ever seen shows him handling the ball and bringing it up the court on basically every play.

[code green]

Iverson or Wade


My heart is saying McGrady, but my head is saying Wade. (Iverson and West follow, not in order) Really, really wish we got to see T-Mac without the back spasms. Without a doubt the smoothest player I've ever seen.

[Thorpesaurous]

So you're trying to tell me that Oscar Robertson wasn't a true PG?

Oscar Robertson led the league in assists by a large margin. During his Cincinnati Royals career spanning the 1960s, Oscar Robertson averaged 10.3.apg for the decade. His closest rival over the same time period was Guy Rogers with an average of 7.9apg followed by Bob Cousy (7.2apg), Walt Frazier (6.8apg) and Lenny Wilkens (6.2apg).

But sure, a guy with 25% more assists than the second best passer in the league is "not really a PG" :facepalm


Oscar was absolutely a shoot first big combo guard that if watch footage played a shitload in the post. I consider him a PG myself. All I'm pointing out is that when people become increasingly obsessed with these ranking guys and ranking by position, it should become obvious that not everyone is so definable. Jerry West did a little of both. Oscar Robertson did a little of probably three positions. Earl Monroe was more pure a PG than either of them but spent more time at SG that either because he was playing next to another all timer. Without defining who's what, you wind up with people leaving guys on either side and no one gets where they'd belong.

[ArbitraryWater]

So you're trying to tell me that Oscar Robertson wasn't a true PG?

Oscar Robertson led the league in assists by a large margin. During his Cincinnati Royals career spanning the 1960s, Oscar Robertson averaged 10.3.apg for the decade. His closest rival over the same time period was Guy Rogers with an average of 7.9apg followed by Bob Cousy (7.2apg), Walt Frazier (6.8apg) and Lenny Wilkens (6.2apg).

But sure, a guy with 25% more assists than the second best passer in the league is "not really a PG" :facepalm

Why the hell are you so mad and upset, facepalming n' shit at Thorpe? He's the wrong guy to get that treatment..

[WillC]

Oscar was absolutely a shoot first big combo guard that if watch footage played a shitload in the post. I consider him a PG myself. All I'm pointing out is that when people become increasingly obsessed with these ranking guys and ranking by position, it should become obvious that not everyone is so definable. Jerry West did a little of both. Oscar Robertson did a little of probably three positions. Earl Monroe was more pure a PG than either of them but spent more time at SG that either because he was playing next to another all timer. Without defining who's what, you wind up with people leaving guys on either side and no one gets where they'd belong.

Good, we both agree Oscar was a PG. Nothing to argue about then.

I agree with most of the things in your post.

[NumberSix]

Kobe.

[ILLsmak]

Wade or AI. I try to stay away from throwing in old doodz cuz I haven't seen them play live and there are legit questions about whether they could ball with guys like Wade and AI.

-Smak

[La Frescobaldi]

Can Hondo be considered for this discussion?

Would you classify him as a 2 or 3?

The Celtics ran a ton of three man weave, & Havlicek was a swingman. Later on like '70s, especially when Heinsohn showed up, he played the 3.

[red1]

duwayne wayne

[ArbitraryWater]

duwayne wayne

Wade > West is pretty damn disrespectful imo

[red1]

Wade > West is pretty damn disrespectful imo
because you are a bronze fanboy. watchu know about west? shit was before your time

[ArbitraryWater]

because you are a bronze fanboy. watchu know about west? shit was before your time

I luhv Wade... I've actually come to like him even more that Bron is gone and would love for him to have a strong bounce back year.

But I respect history aswell. And Research tells me it would be pretty unfair to Jerry..

[Milbuck]

Wade > West is pretty damn disrespectful imo
No it's not.

[La Frescobaldi]

being honest since ive never seen west play, how good was his shooting?
and what was his main weapon to score?

West was completely lights out. Completely. His stats are utterly irrelevant.
He shot from anywhere on the court with complete assurance and total abandon - and it went in. A lot.

His main weapon was the completely unpredictable jumper.

I don't know if he invented this, but he mastered it beyond all others...... he would sprint-dribble along the perimeter, about where the 3 point line is today...... with his defender racing along right beside him, as if West was looking to cut and drive. Without changing anything in his body language, without slowing down or anything... and from any random location along the arc that he was running along... he would take one very hard dribble. The ball would bounce very high, and Jerry would go straight into his jump shot. He would sweep his arms up, catch the ball at chest or chin level - after he had already left his feet and was up high, you see? - and swing right on up into his overhead jumper form. Just unstoppable.

Many a time I saw defenders try to stop their full blast sprint and get into a vertical defense.... and just go sprawling out onto the floor.

Beautiful... chilly..... graceful... deadly as f*ck.

And the thing is, if a guy did manage to recover in time, it didn't make a difference. Jerry West's arms were literally as long as Wilt Chamberlain's arms. So he could still shoot over anybody.

High school coaches taught it for years and years after West showed what that was. Kiki Vandeweghe used that real well, and so have a lot of guys in the last few years or decade. But Kobe Bryant has perfected his own version of the Logo move beyond any other players I've seen.

All that said about jumpers......
West was amazing at the drive. Jerry West is the fastest guy I have ever seen getting from the perimeter to the basket. His acceleration was like D Rose before the knee. He didn't have Jordan's first step, you know? Nor Kobe's. But those second, third & fourth steps were a blur of sheer speed. Matchless.

And that sudden acceleration was part of what made that "Logo move" so unstoppable, because he would use it at any time out there on the perimeter.

Players used to be terrified to be alone on "Jerry's Island." Because he was gonna scorch them bad.

[red1]

I luhv Wade... I've actually come to like him even more that Bron is gone and would love for him to have a strong bounce back year.

But I respect history aswell. And Research tells me it would be pretty unfair to Jerry..
Who was the better player in their prime? I am not talking about historical relevance here. And lets be honest. Big men from the past aged significantly better than their guard contemporaries. I'd take d-lord ten times out of ten if I had to choose a player to win me a do-or-die game.

[ArbitraryWater]

No it's not.

This is the same guy that did this in the finals:

Jerry West 1962 NBA finals: 31.1ppg / 5.2rpg / 2.7apg on 45.6% FG

Jerry West 1963 NBA finals: 29.5ppg / 6.8rpg / 4.5apg on 49% FG

Jerry West 1966 NBA finals: 33.9ppg / 6.4rpg / 5.1apg on 51.5% FG

Jerry West 1968 NBA finals: 31.3ppg / 5.8rpg / 5.3apg on 51.4% FG

Jerry West 1969 NBA finals: 37.9ppg / 4.7rpg / 7.4apg on 49% FG

Jerry West 1970 NBA finals: 31.3ppg / 3.4rpg / 7.7apg on 45% FG

It's like Wade '06 but doing it FIVE times.

Seasons of 31/8 (2nd year), 29/6 on 48%, 31/6 on 50%, 31/7 on 47%, 29/6 and 31/5/8 on 50%...

And was an elite 2-way Player for 11 seasons... Wade has been breaking down after 7 (2005-2012).... Jerry's the better playmaker/Distributor, scorer, and Defender.... A way better jumpshot and played defense at a longer Level than Wade did. All-Star EVERY year of his career, led the Lakers to NINE FINALS. He only missed the finals 4 seasons of his career.

He's played better on the big stage as well, and is one of the GOAT clutch Players in NBA history.

RAISED his Level of Play in the Playoffs...a 31/7 on 50% postseason, 32/7 on 47%, 34/6/6 on 52%, and three more 31+ ppg postseasons... the ALL TIME LEADER in Finals ppg. And only Jordan had a higher PPG in the Playoffs.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=273368

Denied a title as a teammate missed the Championship winning Jumper in '62.

His game tying 3 that sent a Finals game into Overtime would explode the Internet these days. (And also would have won it btw)

One of the most respected Players ever...

I don't see any realistic Argument, for someone who is usually mentioned top 25 over Jerry West, who is usually mentioned top 15.... The damn Logo.

Yes, it is disrespectful...

[DaSeba5]

Wade, but I'm biased. It's either West or Wade regardless.

[ArbitraryWater]

Who was the better player in their prime? I am not talking about historical relevance here. And lets be honest. Big men from the past aged significantly better than their guard contemporaries. I'd take d-lord ten times out of ten if I had to choose a player to win me a do-or-die game.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=273368

Learn something. I have no idea what you base that claim on anyway.

I don't get the big men aspect either... Irrelevant I guess.

[red1]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=273368

Learn something. I have no idea what you base that claim on anyway.

I don't get the big men aspect either... Irrelevant I guess.
What is it that you don't get? You really going to act like the guard play of the 60s is equivalent to the guard play of today? You aren't fooling anybody by the way. Your stance is 100% due to the fact that you are a lebron stan. Somehow in your mind playing with the 3rd best SG is a detriment to bronze's career so you refuse to acknowledge it. Don't worry though. Bronze is still going to retire a top 5 player regardless.

[CavaliersFTW]

What is it that you don't get? You really going to act like the guard play of the 60s is equivalent to the guard play of today? You aren't fooling anybody by the way. Your stance is 100% due to the fact that you are a lebron stan. Somehow in your mind playing with the 3rd best SG is a detriment to bronze's career so you refuse to acknowledge it. Don't worry, bronze is still going to retire a top 5 player regardless.
I personally don't even care about stats or accolades. West looks better than Wade via eye test to me.

He is quicker than Wade, looks dialed in and focused ALL the time on defense, not just on cherry pick plays, and he can SHOOT. If I had to pick a guy to be on my team at the expense of the other guy going to the opponents team I'd pick West over Wade.

[Milbuck]

This is the same guy that did this in the finals:

Jerry West 1963 NBA finals: 29.5ppg / 6.8rpg / 4.5apg on 49% FG

Jerry West 1967 NBA finals: 33.9ppg / 6.4rpg / 5.1apg on 51.5% FG

Jerry West 1968 NBA finals: 31.3ppg / 5.8rpg / 5.3apg on 51.4% FG

Jerry West 1969 NBA finals: 37.9ppg / 4.7rpg / 7.4apg on 49% FG

Jerry West 1970 NBA finals: 31.3ppg / 3.4rpg / 7.7apg on 45% FG

It's like Wade '06 just 4 times.

Seasons of 31/8 (2nd year), 29/6 on 48%, 31/6 on 50%, 31/7 on 47%, 29/6 and 31/5/8 on 50%...

And was an elite 2-way Player for 11 seasons... Wade has been breaking down after 7 (2005-2012).... Jerry's the better playmaker/Distributor, scorer, and Defender.... A way better jumpshot and played defense at a longer Level than Wade did. All-Star EVERY year of his career, led the Lakers to NINE FINALS. He only missed the finals 4 seasons of his career.

He's played better on the big stage as well, and is one of the GOAT clutch Players in NBA history.

RAISED his Level of Play in the Playoffs...a 31/7 on 50% postseason, 32/7 on 47%, 34/6/6 on 52%, and three more 31+ ppg postseasons... the ALL TIME LEADER in Finals ppg. And only Jordan had a higher PPG in the Playoffs.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=273368

Denied a title as a teammate missed the Championship winning Jumper in '62.

His game tying 3 that sent a Finals game into Overtime and led to a W would explose the Internet these days.

One of the most respected Players ever...

I don't see any realistic Argument, for someone who is usually mentioned top 25 over Jerry West, who is usually mentioned top 15.... The damn Logo.

Yes, it is disrespectful...
Except that we're discussing 3rd best SG...not 3rd greatest. At least that's what I think this thread is about, the OP was a bit vague. But the terminology remains...best =/= greatest. Obviously West is higher on the all-time list.

But I'm taking 2008-09 Wade over any version of West ever. Who the **** would stop peak Wade back then in the 60s and 70s?

At his peak he was a 30/5/8/2/1 on 57% TS player with great defense..in this era with stronger, more athletic, more dominant physical specimens with more complex defenses. You can't possibly watch footage of the 60s-early 70s and think D-Wade at his absolute best wouldn't rape the competition at the level or a level higher than how West did.

If we're talking about them purely as players (at their best) and ignoring accolades, longevity, etc..it's really not disrespectful in any way whatsoever. The same way I wouldn't knock someone for saying they'd take 2013-14 Kevin Durant at his best #3 over any SF in history aside from Lebron and Bird. I'm taking peak Wade over any SG in history except MJ and Kobe, and even then it's a tough decision between him and Kobe.

[red1]

West looks better than wade via eye test to me.

He is quicker than Wade, looks dialed in and focused ALL the time on defense, not just on cherry pick plays, and he can SHOOT.
You really believe this?

[CavaliersFTW]

Except that we're discussing 3rd best SG...not 3rd greatest. At least that's what I think this thread is about, the OP was a bit vague. But the terminology remains...best =/= greatest. Obviously West is higher on the all-time list.

But I'm taking 2008-09 Wade over any version of West ever. Who the **** would stop peak Wade back then in the 60s and 70s?

At his peak he was a 30/5/8/2/1 on 57% TS player with great defense..in this era with stronger, more athletic, more dominant physical specimens with more complex defenses. You can't possibly watch footage of the 60s-early 70s and think D-Wade at his absolute best wouldn't rape the competition at the level or a level higher than how West did.

If we're talking about them purely as players (at their best) and ignoring accolades, longevity, etc..it's really not disrespectful in any way whatsoever. I'm taking peak Wade over any SG in history except MJ and Kobe, and even then it's a tough decision between him and Kobe. The same way I wouldn't knock someone for saying they'd take 2013-14 Kevin Durant at his best #3 over any SF in history aside from Lebron and Bird.
This is a bigger/faster/stronger Dwyane Wade.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uchAeIUAZco

He averaged 18 points per game.

I'll take West over Wade in any era.

[ArbitraryWater]

This is the same guy that did this in the finals:

Jerry West 1962 NBA finals: 31.1ppg / 5.2rpg / 2.7apg on 45.6% FG

Jerry West 1963 NBA finals: 29.5ppg / 6.8rpg / 4.5apg on 49% FG

Jerry West 1966 NBA finals: 33.9ppg / 6.4rpg / 5.1apg on 51.5% FG

Jerry West 1968 NBA finals: 31.3ppg / 5.8rpg / 5.3apg on 51.4% FG

Jerry West 1969 NBA finals: 37.9ppg / 4.7rpg / 7.4apg on 49% FG

Jerry West 1970 NBA finals: 31.3ppg / 3.4rpg / 7.7apg on 45% FG

It's like Wade '06 but doing it FIVE times.

Seasons of 31/8 (2nd year), 29/6 on 48%, 31/6 on 50%, 31/7 on 47%, 29/6 and 31/5/8 on 50%...

And was an elite 2-way Player for 11 seasons... Wade has been breaking down after 7 (2005-2012).... Jerry's the better playmaker/Distributor, scorer, and Defender.... A way better jumpshot and played defense at a longer Level than Wade did. All-Star EVERY year of his career, led the Lakers to NINE FINALS. He only missed the finals 4 seasons of his career.

He's played better on the big stage as well, and is one of the GOAT clutch Players in NBA history.

RAISED his Level of Play in the Playoffs...a 31/7 on 50% postseason, 32/7 on 47%, 34/6/6 on 52%, and three more 31+ ppg postseasons... the ALL TIME LEADER in Finals ppg. And only Jordan had a higher PPG in the Playoffs.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=273368

Denied a title as a teammate missed the Championship winning Jumper in '62.

His game tying 3 that sent a Finals game into Overtime would explode the Internet these days. (And also would have won it btw)

One of the most respected Players ever...

I don't see any realistic Argument, for someone who is usually mentioned top 25 over Jerry West, who is usually mentioned top 15.... The damn Logo.

Yes, it is disrespectful...

So you really just ignored this entire post and instead went on to harp at something that is completely irrelevant in this discussion?

Good Job, red1... That's what I call dodging the Argument :applause:

Why would anything change for me if Wade isn't the 3rd best SG ever, but the 4th best SG ever... AND I have Facts backing me up... Which you don't. At least you haven't bothered to give any reasoning... Maybe it is due to being lazy, maybe it is due to YOU infact being a Wade stan, maybe you just don't care, or maybe, like you said, it's before our time... So why even take him into consideration, right?

[red1]

Except that we're discussing 3rd best SG...not 3rd greatest. At least that's what I think this thread is about, the OP was a bit vague. But the terminology remains...best =/= greatest. Obviously West is higher on the all-time list.

But I'm taking 2008-09 Wade over any version of West ever. Who the **** would stop peak Wade back then in the 60s and 70s?

At his peak he was a 30/5/8/2/1 on 57% TS player with great defense..in this era with stronger, more athletic, more dominant physical specimens with more complex defenses. You can't possibly watch footage of the 60s-early 70s and think D-Wade at his absolute best wouldn't rape the competition at the level or a level higher than how West did.

If we're talking about them purely as players (at their best) and ignoring accolades, longevity, etc..it's really not disrespectful in any way whatsoever. The same way I wouldn't knock someone for saying they'd take 2013-14 Kevin Durant at his best #3 over any SF in history aside from Lebron and Bird. I'm taking peak Wade over any SG in history except MJ and Kobe, and even then it's a tough decision between him and Kobe.
Flawless post

[TheMarkMadsen]

West was completely lights out. Completely. His stats are utterly irrelevant.
He shot from anywhere on the court with complete assurance and total abandon - and it went in. A lot.

His main weapon was the completely unpredictable jumper.

I don't know if he invented this, but he mastered it beyond all others...... he would sprint-dribble along the perimeter, about where the 3 point line is today...... with his defender racing along right beside him, as if West was looking to cut and drive. Without changing anything in his body language, without slowing down or anything... and from any random location along the arc that he was running along... he would take one very hard dribble. The ball would bounce very high, and Jerry would go straight into his jump shot. He would sweep his arms up, catch the ball at chest or chin level - after he had already left his feet and was up high, you see? - and swing right on up into his overhead jumper form. Just unstoppable.

Many a time I saw defenders try to stop their full blast sprint and get into a vertical defense.... and just go sprawling out onto the floor.

Beautiful... chilly..... graceful... deadly as f*ck.

And the thing is, if a guy did manage to recover in time, it didn't make a difference. Jerry West's arms were literally as long as Wilt Chamberlain's arms. So he could still shoot over anybody.

High school coaches taught it for years and years after West showed what that was. Kiki Vandeweghe used that real well, and so have a lot of guys in the last few years or decade. But Kobe Bryant has perfected his own version of the Logo move beyond any other players I've seen.

All that said about jumpers......
West was amazing at the drive. Jerry West is the fastest guy I have ever seen getting from the perimeter to the basket. His acceleration was like D Rose before the knee. He didn't have Jordan's first step, you know? Nor Kobe's. But those second, third & fourth steps were a blur of sheer speed. Matchless.

And that sudden acceleration was part of what made that "Logo move" so unstoppable, because he would use it at any time out there on the perimeter.

Players used to be terrified to be alone on "Jerry's Island." Because he was gonna scorch them bad.


I love post like this. No stats, just eye test observations. I learned more from this post than any box score could tell me.

Now you got me wanting to look up some highlights.

[DaSeba5]

Except that we're discussing 3rd best SG...not 3rd greatest. At least that's what I think this thread is about, the OP was a bit vague. But the terminology remains...best =/= greatest. Obviously West is higher on the all-time list.

But I'm taking 2008-09 Wade over any version of West ever. Who the **** would stop peak Wade back then in the 60s and 70s?

At his peak he was a 30/5/8/2/1 on 57% TS player with great defense..in this era with stronger, more athletic, more dominant physical specimens with more complex defenses. You can't possibly watch footage of the 60s-early 70s and think D-Wade at his absolute best wouldn't rape the competition at the level or a level higher than how West did.

If we're talking about them purely as players (at their best) and ignoring accolades, longevity, etc..it's really not disrespectful in any way whatsoever. The same way I wouldn't knock someone for saying they'd take 2013-14 Kevin Durant at his best #3 over any SF in history aside from Lebron and Bird. I'm taking peak Wade over any SG in history except MJ and Kobe, and even then it's a tough decision between him and Kobe.

Spot on

[CavaliersFTW]

You really believe this?
Absolutely, it's physics. Wade over the course of his career has been 214-233lbs

West was 175-188lbs.

West by the sheer physics of accelerating mass alone was quicker than Wade. Eye test confirms. His hands and feet just move a lot quicker than Wade, Wade is obviously a lot stronger, Wade has forward-like strength. But really no debate who was quicker. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0slTJerxPTA

[Milbuck]

This is a bigger/faster/stronger Dwyane Wade.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uchAeIUAZco

He averaged 18 points per game.

I'll take West over Wade in any era.
From that video:

http://youtu.be/uchAeIUAZco?t=1m21s

D-Wade:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4de3Oisy0bs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uRN7iJ5CqQ

[red1]

So you really just ignored this entire post and instead went on to harp at something that is completely irrelevant in this discussion?

Good Job, red1... That's what I call dodging the Argument :applause:

Why would anything change for me if Wade isn't the 3rd best SG ever, but the 4th best SG ever... AND I have Facts backing me up... Which you don't. At least you haven't bothered to give any reasoning... Maybe it is due to being lazy, maybe it is due to YOU infact being a Wade stan, maybe you just don't care, or maybe, like you said, it's before our time... So why even take him into consideration, right?
Stats are only useful when you are comparing players within the same era. To use the stats west put up in the 60s to try and say that he replicated wade's 06 finals 4 times? Ridiculous.

[ArbitraryWater]

Except that we're discussing 3rd best SG...not 3rd greatest. At least that's what I think this thread is about, the OP was a bit vague. But the terminology remains...best =/= greatest. Obviously West is higher on the all-time list.

But I'm taking 2008-09 Wade over any version of West ever. Who the **** would stop peak Wade back then in the 60s and 70s?

At his peak he was a 30/5/8/2/1 on 57% TS player with great defense..in this era with stronger, more athletic, more dominant physical specimens with more complex defenses. You can't possibly watch footage of the 60s-early 70s and think D-Wade at his absolute best wouldn't rape the competition at the level or a level higher than how West did.

If we're talking about them purely as players (at their best) and ignoring accolades, longevity, etc..it's really not disrespectful in any way whatsoever. The same way I wouldn't knock someone for saying they'd take 2013-14 Kevin Durant at his best #3 over any SF in history aside from Lebron and Bird. I'm taking peak Wade over any SG in history except MJ and Kobe, and even then it's a tough decision between him and Kobe.

I don't think the OP made any difference between best and greatest here... How would you even define that? Peak, and you take ONE single season? Like, why the hell would I take Wade if West's, just like Kobe's Peak, lasted like thrice as long? Wade was underwhelming that postseason also... Something that West rarely was.

If you want to continue to talk about who had the best individual season between them in their careers combined, do that... I find it pretty baseless when we have West with about double as many ELITE seasons than Wade to be quite honest.

And even then it's a stretch, considering how West BEASTED in the Playoffs in 1963, 1964, 1966, 1968, 1969, 1970...

Don't you think it makes more sense to compare These guys RELATIVE TO THEIR OWN COMPETITION, and not just put Dwyane Wade's Body, Genetics and Athleticism as it is now (or was in his prime), in the 1960's?

You don't think Jerry growing up in the 1980's like Wade, with better Nutrition, health, methods, Training, etc. would benefit him?

The "Put him in that era and he would..." is soo :ohwell:

Holding each Player against their own Era shows it won't be enough for Wade, then...

[DaSeba5]

This thread really makes me question how many people actually watched Wade in his prime rather than in the big 3 Era. I mean I know we were irrelevant for a lot of his career, but geez....

[CavaliersFTW]

From that video:

http://youtu.be/uchAeIUAZco?t=1m21s

D-Wade:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4de3Oisy0bs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uRN7iJ5CqQ
Those are basically Wade's top two career dunks, we have his entire career on film, from multiple camera angles, which is great. We can cherry pick him at his best, which people have done to make mixes of him.

Only a totally random half a percent to 1 percent of Gus's career exists on film which comes up to about a dozen random dunks, and a dozen random examples of other various shots he liked to take. Not him at his absolute best, just random shots. His absolute best dunks and examples of posterizing players out of the thousand or so times that he dunked in his career would be guaranteed to also have millions of views on Youtube if they surfaced. Descriptions exist of his best dunks. He shattered 3 NBA backboards, once from a guy riding his back up to the ring. He also once dunked from the free throw line over Wilis Reed. Wilt admits even he got dunked on by Gus (one of the few forwards/guards to ever do that to him), etc etc etc. Gus was a highlight machine.

[Real14]

http://www.allposters.com/IMAGES/PHOTOFILE/AACG022.jpg

[red1]

Absolutely, it's physics. Wade over the course of his career has been 214-233lbs

West was 175-188lbs.

West by the sheer physics of accelerating mass alone was quicker than Wade. Eye test confirms. His hands and feet just move a lot quicker than Wade, Wade is obviously a lot stronger, Wade has forward-like strength. But really no debate who was quicker. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0slTJerxPTA
I still disagree.

[ArbitraryWater]

Stats are only useful when you are comparing players within the same era. To use the stats west put up in the 60s to try and say that he replicated wade's 06 finals 4 times? Ridiculous.

Aha, so how do you put LeBron top 5 ALL TIME, when comparing statistics throughout different era's is useless, to you?

Are you sure you're in the right thread? So far you've only spit 2-3 lines which have either attacked me in a way, were about LeBron for whatever reason, and big men from the past aging better..

Until you post something productive, no reply will be wasted... Have a good one, red1.. I'm off to bed.

[red1]

Aha, so how do you put LeBron top 5 ALL TIME, when comparing statistics throughout different era's is useless, to you?

Are you sure you're in the right thread? So far you've only spit 2-3 lines which have either attacked me in a way, were about LeBron for whatever reason, and big men from the past aging better..

Until you post something productive, no reply will be wasted... Have a good one, red1.. I'm off to bed.
I put him top 5 all-time based on what I know about the NBA GOATs. Im not trying to attack you. I am just giving my perspective on this thread. You said it is disrespectful to put wade over west and I disagree is all.

[Milbuck]

I don't think the OP made any difference between best and greatest here... How would you even define that? Peak, and you take ONE single season? Like, why the hell would I take Wade if West's, just like Kobe's Peak, lasted like thrice as long? Wade was underwhelming that postseason also... Something that West rarely was.

If you want to continue to talk about who had the best individual season between them in their careers combined, do that... I find it pretty baseless when we have West with about double as many ELITE seasons than Wade to be quite honest.

And even then it's a stretch, considering how West BEASTED in the Playoffs in 1963, 1964, 1966, 1968, 1969, 1970...

Don't you think it makes more sense to compare These guys RELATIVE TO THEIR OWN COMPETITION, and not just put Dwyane Wade's Body, Genetics and Athleticism as it is now (or was in his prime), in the 1960's?

You don't think Jerry growing up in the 1980's like Wade, with better Nutrition, health, methods, Training, etc. would benefit him?

The "Put him in that era and he would..." is soo :ohwell:

Holding each Player against their own Era shows it won't be enough for Wade, then...
The title of the thread is 3rd best SG...and best is not the same as greatest. Shaq is not the greatest center ever...but I have no problem with someone saying Shaq is the best center ever..because Shaq at his best was that good.

And it's really unfair to bring in longevity into a discussion about best players...that's a career thing, a legacy thing. It's even more unfair when one of the guys in this discussion (Wade) had his meniscus removed and was ****ed from the start longevity-wise. We are talking best player...like at their best, who is THE best? Or in this case, 3rd best.

And it's not like Wade has 1 elite season. What about 2006 with his 27/6/7/2/1 with a legendary finals showing? Or the year after with 27/5/8/2/1? Or 2010 with 27/5/7/2/1? Wade hasn't had the longevity of guys like Kobe or West but his peak wasn't some flash in the pan. He was really, really ****ing good for several seasons. The top 2-3 of which I'd take over most if not all of West's seasons.

As for the West with modern nutrition stuff...it's irrelevant. I'm not interested in these hypothetical scenarios. We're talking about who these players were, as they were. Unless you're suggesting that there's a clear difference between now and back then in terms of athleticism and overall quality of the field.

[WillC]

I'd take peak Tracy McGrady over peak Dwyane Wade. You could also make an argument for Clyde Drexler and Allen Iverson too.

Regardless, West is the third greatest SG of all-time. It's really quite clear in terms of accolades, statistics, impact on the game, etc.

[Milbuck]

I'd take peak Tracy McGrady over peak Dwyane Wade. You could also make an argument for Clyde Drexler and Allen Iverson too.

Regardless, West is the third greatest SG of all-time. It's really quite clear in terms of accolades, statistics, impact on the game, etc.
And it would be a terrible argument.

[pudman13]

When people try to claim that today's players are superior they neglect the very important fact that the rules are different. If Wade played in West's era he'd get called for a carry on every play and wouldn't get a single one of those bogus foul calls when he recklessly crashes into the defense and tosses the ball in the direction of the basket. Great players from the present could adjust, sure, but great players of the past would have adjusted too.

If anyone wants to see how deadly and unstoppable West was in the clutch, watch the last play of the 1972 All Star game. The way he was not going to be denied there looks like only one other player I've seen: Michael Jordan.

Also, is there anyone who questions West's toughness? His autobiography ends with a three page list of his NBA injuries, most of which cost him no time whatsoever.

[mehyaM24]

not sure why people are so high on wade - all of his championship runs consist of being "that other guy". basically the shadow of another great. be it shaq, lebron and now bosh (relative to league). not just that though - the guy is one the laziest "superstars" of all time. nobody seems to bat an eye when this lazy pos misses games or completey stands out in the perimeter watching his running mate put in ALL the work.

im also mythed about people hyping his 09 season. leading your team to a first round exit and shooting 44% is supposed to be...good?

the answer is the logo (who's game translates in any era) - period

[TheMarkMadsen]

not sure why people are so high on wade - all of his championship runs consist of being "that other guy". basically the shadow of another great. be it shaq, lebron and now bosh (relative to league). not just that though - the guy is one the laziest "superstars" of all time. nobody seems to bat an eye when this lazy pos misses games or completey stands out in the perimeter watching his running mate put in ALL the work.

im also mythed about people hyping his 09 season. leading your team to a first round exit and shooting 44% is supposed to be...good?

the answer is the logo (who's game translates in any era) - period

:facepalm :facepalm

[mehyaM24]

:facepalm :facepalm

lebron was the best player and leader of the team during the 2012 and 2013 title runs. shaq, by all accounts was the best player on miami during the 2006 championship. avery johnson (mavs coach at the time), alonzo mourning, and wade (two next best players) said as much.

[WillC]

not sure why people are so high on wade - all of his championship runs consist of being "that other guy". basically the shadow of another great. be it shaq, lebron and now bosh (relative to league). not just that though - the guy is one the laziest "superstars" of all time. nobody seems to bat an eye when this lazy pos misses games or completey stands out in the perimeter watching his running mate put in ALL the work.

im also mythed about people hyping his 09 season. leading your team to a first round exit and shooting 44% is supposed to be...good?

the answer is the logo (who's game translates in any era) - period

Well said.

[ArbitraryWater]

The title of the thread is 3rd best SG...and best is not the same as greatest. Shaq is not the greatest center ever...but I have no problem with someone saying Shaq is the best center ever..because Shaq at his best was that good.

And it's really unfair to bring in longevity into a discussion about best players...that's a career thing, a legacy thing. It's even more unfair when one of the guys in this discussion (Wade) had his meniscus removed and was ****ed from the start longevity-wise. We are talking best player...like at their best, who is THE best? Or in this case, 3rd best.

And it's not like Wade has 1 elite season. What about 2006 with his 27/6/7/2/1 with a legendary finals showing? Or the year after with 27/5/8/2/1? Or 2010 with 27/5/7/2/1? Wade hasn't had the longevity of guys like Kobe or West but his peak wasn't some flash in the pan. He was really, really ****ing good for several seasons. The top 2-3 of which I'd take over most if not all of West's seasons.

As for the West with modern nutrition stuff...it's irrelevant. I'm not interested in these hypothetical scenarios. We're talking about who these players were, as they were. Unless you're suggesting that there's a clear difference between now and back then in terms of athleticism and overall quality of the field.

It's not longevity... That's is his prime, you know.... Don't label it "longevity" so you can make it something it isn't. Wade was really, really good for about 4-5 seasons... (2006, 2009-2011 and then depending on if you include '07)

Bolded: Is this Irony? You do realize your ARGUMENT is based on a Hypothetical, right? "If Wade would be in the 1960's, he'd do this and that"... I thought you'd be smarter than that, lmfao.

And then, how much sense does it make to you, to put a guy like Dwyane Wade, as he is now, with his Body/Athleticism he has and all modern advancements athletes have to day, and stack him up against guys that were born in the 1940's........... Does this really make any sense to you?



-I appreciate that you can formulate arguments and can be talked with :applause:

Game's over, I'm out.


not sure why people are so high on wade - all of his championship runs consist of being "that other guy". basically the shadow of another great. be it shaq, lebron and now bosh (relative to league). not just that though - the guy is one the laziest "superstars" of all time. nobody seems to bat an eye when this lazy pos misses games or completey stands out in the perimeter watching his running mate put in ALL the work.

im also mythed about people hyping his 09 season. leading your team to a first round exit and shooting 44% is supposed to be...good?

the answer is the logo (who's game translates in any era) - period


Bro you kind of lose credibility when you say Shaq was the best Player on the '06 squad... Just stop with that, accept it, and you're good. I don't want to come off arrogant, but srsly.

[TheMarkMadsen]

lebron was the best player and leader of the team during the 2012 and 2013 title runs. shaq, by all accounts was the best player on miami during the 2006 championship. avery johnson (mavs coach at the time), alonzo mourning, and wade (two next best players) said as much.

:biggums: :biggums:

In the 2006 regular season Wade averaged 27/7/6/2 to Shaq's 20/9/2/2..

In the finals Wade averaged 35/7/4 to Shaq's 13 on 29% FT..

you can't seriously tell me the guy averaging 20 + less points than wade in the finals, was the better player..

and again, in 2012 Wade averaged 23/5/4/2 in the playoffs, you can't just brush those kind of numbers to the side by labeling him an "other guy"

[mehyaM24]

:biggums: :biggums:

In the 2006 regular season Wade averaged 27/7/6/2 to Shaq's 20/9/2/2..

In the finals Wade averaged 35/7/4 to Shaq's 13 on 29% FT..

you can't seriously tell me the guy averaging 20 + less points than wade in the finals, was the better player..

and again, in 2012 Wade averaged 23/5/4/2 in the playoffs, you can't just brush those kind of numbers to the side by labeling him an "other guy"

shaq's impact went beyond his points/numbers.

shaq was top 2-3 in every major statistical category per 48 minutes (#1 in TRB%, #1 in EFG%, #2 in BLK%).

for further persepctive, read more from dallas' headcoach and wade himself


Everything starts with dealing with Shaquille," Dallas coach Avery Johnson says.

O'Neal has not only played smartly and efficiently but at times has been as dominant as ever. Despite double-teams, sometimes when he doesn't have the ball, he is averaging 14.6 points, 9.8 rebounds and 3.2 assists and shooting 66.7%.

"Everyone knows that he's 34 years old and he's not the young Shaq-be-nimble, Shaq-be-quick, but we know we wouldn't be at this point without him,"Wade says. "He's the biggest part of what we have here in Miami."

casual fans like yourself need to quit posting and just listen. let the REAL knowledgeable posters like myself educate you.

[mehyaM24]

Bro you kind of lose credibility when you say Shaq was the best Player on the '06 squad... Just stop with that, accept it, and you're good. I don't want to come off arrogant, but srsly.

nah you're exposing yourself as a casual fan. i can educate you if you'd like? :confusedshrug:

[WillC]

mehyaM24 owning fools in this thread.

[TheMarkMadsen]

shaq's impact went beyond his points/numbers.

shaq was top 2-3 in every major statistical category per 48 minutes (#1 in TRB%, #1 in EFG%, #2 in BLK%).

for further persepctive, read more from dallas' headcoach and wade himself



casual fans like yourself need to quit posting and just listen. let the REAL knowledgeable posters like myself educate you.

PER 48. TRB% BLK% :roll:

I can't with these bran stans, trying to use blk% trb% & PER 48 to argue that Shaq was better than Wade in 06, did Shaq even have 5 games in 06 where he played over 40 minutes let alone 48? :roll:

hellll no

[mehyaM24]

PER 48. TRB% BLK% :roll:

I can't with these bran stans, trying to use blk% trb% & PER 48 to argue that Shaq was better than Wade in 06, did Shaq even have 5 games in 06 where he played over 40 minutes let alone 48? :roll:

hellll no
i quoted teammates and opposing coaches, you know, actual people that were part of that playoff run? you're just another 2-bit kobe stan looking to slight lebron and shaq here. obvious agenda is obvious :lol

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Tossup b/w Jerry West and Wade

[chazzy]

shaq, by all accounts was the best player on miami during the 2006 championship. avery johnson (mavs coach at the time), alonzo mourning, and wade (two next best players) said as much.
Troll harder

[TheMarkMadsen]

i quoted teammates and opposing coaches, you know, actual people that were part of that playoff run? you're just another 2-bit kobe stan looking to slight lebron and shaq here. obvious agenda is obvious :lol

If you honestly think Shaq was better than Wade in 2006 you lose all credibility.

2006 finals

Wade: 35/8/4/3 on 57% TS

Shaq: 14/10/3/.5/.8 on 53% TS

2006 playoffs

Wade: 28/6/6/2/ on 59% TS

Shaq: 18/10/2/2 on 57% TS

[QUOTE]

[tpols]

mehyaM24 owning fools in this thread.

You can't be serious..

As far as 2006 goes wade > refs >>> shaq

[mehyaM24]

this moron spamming numbers, not realizing it has nothing to do with stats. LOL

people who know the game understand that shaq (drew all the doubles and was the one GAME PLANNED for) was the most important player. hell, even wade said it.

[GrapeApe]

i quoted teammates and opposing coaches, you know, actual people that were part of that playoff run?

Shaq is arguably the most dominant player ever and an NBA legend. Wade was in his 3rd year. What do you expect coaches/players to say? They're not stupid. An all-time great will always be shown respect. However, Wade CLEARLY passed Shaq as the Heat's best and most important player in the '05 playoffs. Every coach, player, and human being with functional eyesight knew this. Shaq was still formidable and had to be accounted for, but the Heat were only going as far as Wade took them.

[La Frescobaldi]

Shaq is arguably the most dominant player ever and an NBA legend. Wade was in his 3rd year. What do you expect coaches/players to say? They're not stupid. An all-time great will always be shown respect. However, Wade CLEARLY passed Shaq as the Heat's best and most important player in the '05 playoffs. Every coach, player, and human being with functional eyesight knew this. Shaq was still formidable and had to be accounted for, but the Heat were only going as far as Wade took them.

They made for a great partner set-up.

Neither one of them was winning that year without the other guy - just like it should be - both of them knew it - just like it should be - both of them admired and respected the other guy - just like it should be.

I hated their guts for not being Lakers tho

[tpols]

They made for a great partner set-up.

Neither one of them was winning that year without the other guy - just like it should be - both of them knew it - just like it should be - both of them admired and respected the other guy - just like it should be.

I hated their guts for not being Lakers tho

Hell Prolly say the same thing.. But Yea Jordan wasn't winning shit without pippin.. Neither was kobe without Pau.. Etc

[Mr. Jabbar]

Wade or AI. I try to stay away from throwing in old doodz cuz I haven't seen them play live and there are legit questions about whether they could ball with guys like Wade and AI.

-Smak

-Smak

[GrapeApe]

They made for a great partner set-up.

Neither one of them was winning that year without the other guy - just like it should be - both of them knew it - just like it should be - both of them admired and respected the other guy - just like it should be.

I hated their guts for not being Lakers tho

Agree 100%, and as a Heat fan I fully understand and appreciate what Shaq brought to the team. They certainly weren't winning a title without him.

[Asukal]

The logo. :rockon:

[TheNaturalWR]

So you really just ignored this entire post and instead went on to harp at something that is completely irrelevant in this discussion?

Good Job, red1... That's what I call dodging the Argument :applause:

Why would anything change for me if Wade isn't the 3rd best SG ever, but the 4th best SG ever... AND I have Facts backing me up... Which you don't. At least you haven't bothered to give any reasoning... Maybe it is due to being lazy, maybe it is due to YOU infact being a Wade stan, maybe you just don't care, or maybe, like you said, it's before our time... So why even take him into consideration, right?

I don't know how you're going to post those numbers and just COMPLETELY ignore the fact that the pace was so much faster back then which HEAVILY inflates his numbers. With those numbers by all accounts SURELY he must be ranked over Kobe who's had some putrid NBA Finals? Wade and Kobe were essentially a wash in terms of playing the game of basketball so why on earth is it only Kobe that's ahead of West? When the main reasons Kobe is ahead of Wade is because of longevity, stats, and accolades. If we're going to rank West over Wade it better be the same reasons as to why we rank Kobe over Wade.

If we're going to say West is "greater" than Wade, then sure. But don't post those inflated ass numbers and use that as a basis to why West was better than Wade. Because you're essentially saying he's better than Kobe too, which I'm 100% sure you'd disagree with.

[tpols]

I don't know how you're going to post those numbers and just COMPLETELY ignore the fact that the pace was so much faster back then which HEAVILY inflates his numbers. With those numbers by all accounts SURELY he must be ranked over Kobe who's had some putrid NBA Finals? Wade and Kobe were essentially a wash in terms of playing the game of basketball so why on earth is it only Kobe that's ahead of West? When the main reasons Kobe is ahead of Wade is because of longevity, stats, and accolades. If we're going to rank West over Wade it better be the same reasons as to why we rank Kobe over Wade.

If we're going to say West is "greater" than Wade, then sure. But don't post those inflated ass numbers and use that as a basis to why West was better than Wade. Because you're essentially saying he's better than Kobe too, which I'm 100% sure you'd disagree with.

I mean.. Doesn't West have better all that than wade? He's like in between kobe and wade in those regards, right?

[Imtheman]

Allen Iverson > Dwade

[oarabbus]

I mean.. Doesn't West have better all that than wade? He's like in between kobe and wade in those regards, right?

1x NBA Champion (weakest accolade, but Bill Russell took a couple away)
1x FMVP
14x All Star
10x First Team
4x All Defensive First Team
Allstar MVP
1x Scoring Champion
1x Assist Leader
Hall of Famer
Highest scoring season: 31ppg.
Career 27/6/7/2.5stl guy.

(Bonus)
As Executive:
6x NBA Champion
2x EOTY

But "there are questions if he could ball with AI and Wade" :rolleyes:

[ArbitraryWater]

Imagine the MVP's West would be packing if he didn't play in a Decade where every single MVP went to Goliath Chamberlain and GOAT winner Russell.... Because he had about TEN MVP caliber seasons..

And yeah, the "old era" argument is tiring... It's not the 50's here, West was dropping 38 ppg in a 1969 finals series....

[La Frescobaldi]

Imagine the MVP's West would be packing if he didn't play in a Decade where every single MVP went to Goliath Chamberlain and GOAT winner Russell.... Because he had about TEN MVP caliber seasons..

And yeah, the "old era" argument is tiring... It's not the 50's here, West was dropping 38 ppg in a 1969 finals series....

he sure dragged a team along behind him in the '60s.

[TheNaturalWR]

I mean.. Doesn't West have better all that than wade? He's like in between kobe and wade in those regards, right?

Yeah and thus why I said I don't mind people saying West is "greater" than Wade. You want to rank West ahead of Wade? Cool, quite honestly so do I, just making sure it's not because of him actually being a better player than Wade because if you're going to do that, you better rank West ahead of Kobe as well. His main argument is using inflated Finals numbers that not only are better than Wade's but literally every single player from the past decade. INCLUDING LeBron. Those Finals numbers puts LeBron's to shame, so please just throw that argument out the window.

West was on teams that were averaging over 110 PPG whereas Wade was always on defense-oriented teams so his FGA always hovered around 18-22.

[TheNaturalWR]

Imagine the MVP's West would be packing if he didn't play in a Decade where every single MVP went to Goliath Chamberlain and GOAT winner Russell.... Because he had about TEN MVP caliber seasons..

And yeah, the "old era" argument is tiring... It's not the 50's here, West was dropping 38 ppg in a 1969 finals series....

It was still a faster pace was it not? So no it's not tiring. With those numbers surely he must be ranked ahead of Kobe should he not? I mean compare their Finals and West literally blows Kobe out the water. Now tell me why West is ranked ahead of Wade but not Kobe.

[PsychoBe]

It was still a faster pace was it not? So no it's not tiring. With those numbers surely he must be ranked ahead of Kobe should he not? I mean compare their Finals and West literally blows Kobe out the water. Now tell me why West is ranked ahead of Wade but not Kobe.

5 > 3 > 1

[Milbuck]

It's not longevity... That's is his prime, you know.... Don't label it "longevity" so you can make it something it isn't. Wade was really, really good for about 4-5 seasons... (2006, 2009-2011 and then depending on if you include '07)

Bolded: Is this Irony? You do realize your ARGUMENT is based on a Hypothetical, right? "If Wade would be in the 1960's, he'd do this and that"... I thought you'd be smarter than that, lmfao.
How do you not understand the difference between simply taking one guy and putting him in a different era....and taking one guy and completely changing his upbringing, development, nutrition, etc.?

I was technically wrong in suggesting that my argument wasn't a hypothetical..putting Wade in the 60s is definitely a hypothetical.

But they're completely different. Suggesting that Wade in the 60s exactly as himself is the same thing as West born in the modern era..that's just not true. We're keeping one constant, changing the other.


And then, how much sense does it make to you, to put a guy like Dwyane Wade, as he is now, with his Body/Athleticism he has and all modern advancements athletes have to day, and stack him up against guys that were born in the 1940's........... Does this really make any sense to you?This is my point.. How do you not get it?

I really don't care about adjusting for nutrition, medicine, etc.

If Wade is better, he's better. It may not be fair in your opinion, but is this not a discussion of who was the better player? I'm not going to grade these guys on a curve.

[ArbitraryWater]

How do you not understand the difference between simply taking one guy and putting him in a different era....and taking one guy and completely changing his upbringing, development, nutrition, etc.?

I was technically wrong in suggesting that my argument wasn't a hypothetical..putting Wade in the 60s is definitely a hypothetical.

But they're completely different. Suggesting that Wade in the 60s exactly as himself is the same thing as West born in the modern era..that's just not true. We're keeping one constant, changing the other.
This is my point.. How do you not get it?

I really don't care about adjusting for nutrition, medicine, etc.

If Wade is better, he's better. It may not be fair in your opinion, but is this not a discussion of who was the better player? I'm not going to grade these guys on a curve.

So I'm guessing Howard is "better" than Bill Russell aswell? Simply put Bill's skinny frame in today's game the way it was in the 1960's and he would be Rodman?

This just doesn't make any sense to me... Even if you want to do this "better" thing.. Even here, I'd rate them on what they did against their OWN competition/era... You're placing a physically advanced Wade against guys who grew up in the 1940's... It doesn't add up. Why would we do that?

Now, let's put Wade growing up in the 1940's with the same medical progress, nutrition, etc. and then thats fair.. But you can believe me you would have a different Wade. Less athletic, more reliable on his jumpshot.

Look, what you're doing right now.... 30 years from now someone else will be saying that about an inferior player. "Put X in the 2000's and he will be better than Wade".... It's not fair. West was a greater player, and better... If you go by yours, is Cousy one of the top 200 best players ever? Probably not...

[ArbitraryWater]

It was still a faster pace was it not? So no it's not tiring. With those numbers surely he must be ranked ahead of Kobe should he not? I mean compare their Finals and West literally blows Kobe out the water. Now tell me why West is ranked ahead of Wade but not Kobe.

I don't get your point? Are you suggesting Kobe = Wade?

Kobe's Prime is literally twice as long as Wade's... Stop it.

[bizil]

One thing about West is how many guys can u say is a great shooter from all areas, a great slasher, great passer, and great defender in one? The bar he set at the SG position FROM JUMP was a guy who was great in ALL AREAS of the game. That's the reason why SG's like Gervin, Pete, Monroe, Greer, Jones, etc. could never be considered better than him in terms of peak. The only thing Big O at PG really had on West in my opinion was size and versatility. It took Jordan to bring freak athletic ability in a 6'6 frame to overtake Jerry peak wise and GOAT wise at SG. And of course Kobe has passed West by too. At this point, u could argue West or Wade at the 3rd GOAT SG. Peak wise, I would lean to Wade.

[GrapeApe]

So I'm guessing Howard is "better" than Bill Russell aswell? Simply put Bill's skinny frame in today's game the way it was in the 1960's and he would be Rodman?

This just doesn't make any sense to me... Even if you want to do this "better" thing.. Even here, I'd rate them on what they did against their OWN competition/era... You're placing a physically advanced Wade against guys who grew up in the 1940's... It doesn't add up. Why would we do that?

Now, let's put Wade growing up in the 1940's with the same medical progress, nutrition, etc. and then thats fair.. But you can believe me you would have a different Wade. Less athletic, more reliable on his jumpshot.

Look, what you're doing right now.... 30 years from now someone else will be saying that about an inferior player. "Put X in the 2000's and he will be better than Wade".... It's not fair. West was a greater player, and better... If you go by yours, is Cousy one of the top 200 best players ever? Probably not...

You make a few points I happen to agree with, but something tells me you'd be inconsistent with these points when applied toward LeBron.

[Milbuck]

So I'm guessing Howard is "better" than Bill Russell aswell? Simply put Bill's skinny frame in today's game the way it was in the 1960's and he would be Rodman?This is such an inconsistent argument..the difference between Wade and West is infinitely closer than the difference between Bill ****ing Russell and Dwight Howard. You're acting like I'm one of those guys who insists "Javale McGee would put up 50ppg in the 60s"...I'm not. Jerry West is an incredible, incredible basketball player. But I do not in any way think the 60s were as athletically and physically as competitive an era as it is right now. Same goes for the structure of modern defenses vs back then.

This just doesn't make any sense to me... Even if you want to do this "better" thing.. Even here, I'd rate them on what they did against their OWN competition/era... You're placing a physically advanced Wade against guys who grew up in the 1940's... It doesn't add up. Why would we do that?Christ.

We're comparing who is the better player. Wade to me is the better overall basketball player, based on his capabilities on the basketball court.

You're supporting my argument by suggesting that to make this a fair comparison, we would have to give West all the "advantages". You're telling me that Wade has been a top tier all time great shooting guard in an era with clearly better athletes, defensive schemes, etc.


Now, let's put Wade growing up in the 1940's with the same medical progress, nutrition, etc. and then thats fair.. But you can believe me you would have a different Wade. Less athletic, more reliable on his jumpshot.
Again, I don't give two shits about what Wade would've been if he grew up then. He grew up when he did, and the player he is is the player he is.


Look, what you're doing right now.... 30 years from now someone else will be saying that about an inferior player. "Put X in the 2000's and he will be better than Wade".... It's not fair. West was a greater player, and better... If you go by yours, is Cousy one of the top 200 best players ever? Probably not...Again here you go with the massive exaggerations....Yeah, Cousy won't be in the top 200 in 30 years :facepalm

Seriously though, there will be somewhat of a difference in athleticism, strategy, etc in 30-40 years from now. That doesn't have anything to do with the success that players had in their eras prior...it may have something to do with how they stack up against those players purely in ability though.

I'm a pretty big Kobe fan..but I'll be the first to admit that within 40 years from now there's probably going to be 10+ perimeter players clearly better than Kobe ever was. Since he was drafted we already have Lebron, Durant is on that path, and those 2 were drafted just 5 years apart.

Your entire argument is based on adjusting for greatness..which I'm totally down for. Which is why I mentioned pages ago that West is higher on the all time list, and it's not particularly close. But as overall players I'm judging them on who they are/were, not what they would've been under ___, ____, and ____ circumstances.

[ArbitraryWater]

I guess I don't care much for your hypothetical to decide who's better, then...

Glad we can agree on the greater part.

[Milbuck]

I guess I don't care much for your hypothetical to decide who's better, then...

Glad we can agree on the greater part.
My hypothetical involves comparing them as who they were, yours changes that.

Agreed on the greater part, I guess we're just gonna have to agree to disagree on the 'better' aspect of it.

[ArbitraryWater]

My hypothetical involves comparing them as who they were, yours changes that.

Agreed on the greater part, I guess we're just gonna have to agree to disagree on the 'better' aspect of it.

Well, okay, um, yours is a hypothetical considering you say Wade would be better... Mine is one aswell, because I feel different about your logic... I think it wouldn't make much sense doing it that way, but rather comparing one against their own competition. But I can see your side aswell, I guess. I used to think similarly... and I might again.

[PsychoBe]

Well, okay, um, yours is a hypothetical considering you say Wade would be better... Mine is one aswell, because I feel different about your logic... I think it wouldn't make much sense doing it that way, but rather comparing one against their own competition. But I can see your side aswell, I guess. I used to think similarly... and I might again.

3 > 1

[GrapeApe]

Another thing I'd like to add is that Wade's "short lived prime" is overstated. If you subtract his rookie year and last season, he had a 9 year stretch where he averaged around 25/6/5/2/1 on 50%, and in those 9 years he won 3 titles. A player's prime isn't usually a straight line. It starts with early prime, then peak, and then late prime. There may be some ups and downs within the curve, but that's the typical progression. I consider Wade's early prime to have started in '05 and his late prime to have ended in '13. To me, that's a pretty solid duration and by no means as short lived as some people make it out to be.

[TheNaturalWR]

I don't get your point? Are you suggesting Kobe = Wade?

Kobe's Prime is literally twice as long as Wade's... Stop it.

And longevity has nothing to do with who was the better player.

Wade in his prime = Kobe in his prime

Why do you say West is a better player than Wade but not Kobe? Again, SURELY with those god-like numbers in those NBA Finals, he was better than Kobe as well? Longevity has nothing to do with this. You can't say West is better than Wade without saying he was better than Kobe. If you're using longevity as your main argument as to rank West higher than Wade, that's perfectly fine because than at least we know it's not because of actual play on the court. However, you use his inflated Finals numbers as an argument as to why he's better than Wade but you completely ignore the fact that Kobe didn't even have one Finals anywhere remotely close to West's. So again, why do you rank Kobe over West? Was Kobe better than West or not?

[ArbitraryWater]

And longevity has nothing to do with who was the better player.

Wade in his prime = Kobe in his prime

Why do you say West is a better player than Wade but not Kobe? Again, SURELY with those god-like numbers in those NBA Finals, he was better than Kobe as well? Longevity has nothing to do with this. You can't say West is better than Wade without saying he was better than Kobe. If you're using longevity as your main argument as to rank West higher than Wade, that's perfectly fine because than at least we know it's not because of actual play on the court. However, you use his inflated Finals numbers as an argument as to why he's better than Wade but you completely ignore the fact that Kobe didn't even have one Finals anywhere remotely close to West's. So again, why do you rank Kobe over West? Was Kobe better than West or not?

It's not Longevity :oldlol:

West's/Kobe's prime just lasted twice as Long :oldlol:

West/Kobe are same Tier... Interchangable. Ranking Players that way makes more sense.

[Milbuck]

It's not Longevity :oldlol:

West's/Kobe's prime just lasted twice as Long :oldlol:

West/Kobe are same Tier... Interchangable. Ranking Players that way makes more sense.
No they're not. Close, yes, but damn sure not interchangeable. Kobe is ahead of West in the all-time list and as an overall player. I've been trying not to say it, but your agenda is clear as ****. Stop propping up West to bring down Kobe and Wade.

[ArbitraryWater]

No they're not. Close, yes, but damn sure not interchangeable. Kobe is ahead of West in the all-time list and as an overall player. I've been trying not to say it, but your agenda is clear as ****. Stop propping up West to bring down Kobe and Wade.

It's Close... Anything that's close is interchangable to me. Just different criterias :cheers:

Yeah, no worries, you've mad that clear enough already, lol..

But **** me for responding just because I love History... Stop accusing.

[pauk]

This guy:

http://www.bikemania.biz/media/catalog/product/n/b/nba_cavaliers_jersey_aero-5.png

[Milbuck]

It's Close... Anything that's close is interchangable to me. Just different criterias :cheers:

Yeah, no worries, you've mad that clear enough already, lol..
It's not the same thing dude :oldlol:

Prime Duncan and KG are close as players. They're not interchangeable, I'm building around peak Duncan every chance I get, with 100% certainty.

Shaq and Hakeem are close...still not interchangeable. I'm taking peak Shaq over peak Hakeem 10 times out of 10.

Kareem and Shaq? Now that might be interchangeable if we're going by sheer dominance at their best.

But not every comparison is interchangeable just because you want it to.

[ArbitraryWater]

It's not the same thing dude :oldlol:

Prime Duncan and KG are close as players. They're not interchangeable, I'm building around peak Duncan every chance I get, with 100% certainty.

Shaq and Hakeem are close...still not interchangeable. I'm taking peak Shaq over peak Hakeem 10 times out of 10.

Kareem and Shaq? Now that might be interchangeable if we're going by sheer dominance at their best.

But not every comparison is interchangeable just because you want it to.

Lol... Who are you to decide that? :roll:

That's 100% Opinion, dude...

I don't think any of that is Close btw except for Kareem/Shaq...

KG vs TD is close if we pick one single season, KG makes it close with 2004. But beyond that, Duncan's prime lasts too long...

Hakeem isn't that close to Peak Shaq either... You know what I feel would be close? Peak Jordan... Now thats interchangeable.

[GrapeApe]

West's/Kobe's prime just lasted twice as Long :oldlol:

Again, exaggerated. I'm curious what you consider West's/Kobe's prime.

[Milbuck]

Lol... Who are you to decide that? :roll:

That's 100% Opinion, dude...

I don't think any of that is Close btw except for Kareem/Shaq...

KG vs TD is close if we pick one single season, KG makes it close with 2004. But beyond that, Duncan's prime lasts too Long...

Hakeem isn't that close to Peak Shaq either... You know what I feel would be close? Peak Jordan... Now thats interchangeable.
2004 KG and 2003 TD is very close. 2 highest PF peaks ever. There's a legitimate case to be made that KG's level during that MVP season was higher than any Duncan season aside from his back to back MVP years.

And if we factor in Hakeem's insane defensive impact to along with his 28/4 on offense (33/5 in one of his championship playoff runs)...it's close. Certainly Shaq, but it's close.

[NBAplayoffs2001]

2004 KG and 2003 TD is very close. 2 highest PF peaks ever. There's a legitimate case to be made that KG's level during that MVP season was higher than any Duncan season aside from his back to back MVP years.

And if we factor in Hakeem's insane defensive impact to along with his 28/4 on offense (33/5 in one of his championship playoff runs)...it's close. Certainly Shaq, but it's close.

KG was taring apart the lakers frontline in the 2004 WCF. Give him a fully healthy team and that could go 7 and in favor of the wolves. KG that year was a beast and a true warrior.

Respect. :rockon:

[ArbitraryWater]

2004 KG and 2003 TD is very close. 2 highest PF peaks ever. There's a legitimate case to be made that KG's level during that MVP season was higher than any Duncan season aside from his back to back MVP years.

And if we factor in Hakeem's insane defensive impact to along with his 28/4 on offense (33/5 in one of his championship playoff runs)...it's close. Certainly Shaq, but it's close.

That's really what I just said... If you go single-season, it is... So you agree with me those would be interchangable? Thanks for proving my point.

[Milbuck]

That's really what I just said... If you go single-season, it is... So you agree with me those would be interchangable? Thanks for proving my point.
Note where I said "aside from his back to back MVP years" for Duncan. Meaning, I'd still take those peak years of Duncan over peak MVP KG every single time. So it's still not interchangeable. Despite it being close.

[ArbitraryWater]

Note where I said "aside from his back to back MVP years" for Duncan. Meaning, I'd still take those peak years of Duncan over peak MVP KG every single time. So it's still not interchangeable. Despite it being close.

Now you're talking about several seasons again? :biggums:

Yes, then it isn't interchangable.. Also what I said.

"There's a legitimate case to be made that KG's level during that MVP season was higher than any Duncan season aside from his back to back MVP years."

I'm reading it again trying to figure this out....

"There's a case to be made that KG in 2004 was better than Duncan from 2000-2001 and 2004-now?"

Yes, that would be correct... also goes without saying, really.

[pudman13]

In comparing West and Kobe, it's totally legitimate to note West's better FG%, both in the regular season and the playoffs. This is not just a matter of the raw numbers, but also in proportion to the league. (West was in the top 10 four times, something Kobe never sniffed.) I don't doubt that Kobe is more talented, but part of being great is making good decisions and playing a team game.

[Milbuck]

Now you're talking about several seasons again? :biggums:

Yes, then it isn't interchangable.. Also what I said.

"There's a legitimate case to be made that KG's level during that MVP season was higher than any Duncan season aside from his back to back MVP years."

I'm reading it again trying to figure this out....

"There's a case to be made that KG in 2004 was better than Duncan from 2000-2001 and 2004-now?"

Yes, that would be correct... also goes without saying, really.
We're talking about 1-2 seasons for peak Duncan and 1 season for peak KG.

I'm gonna be blunt about this...if you don't think 2004 MVP KG is close to 2003 MVP Duncan, you don't know what you're talking about. They're really ****ing close. But I'm still taking Duncan every single time if I'm a GM and I need one of them for one season. Difference between close and interchangeable.

[TheNaturalWR]

It's not Longevity :oldlol:

West's/Kobe's prime just lasted twice as Long :oldlol:

West/Kobe are same Tier... Interchangable. Ranking Players that way makes more sense.

You say it's not longevity and then you say their prime lasted twice as long. Do you know what longevity means? Cause you basically just contradicted yourself.

So what the hell is your argument for West being a better player than Wade but at the same time he's interchangeable with Kobe? Wade and Kobe are on the same tier as players, literally equals at their best. You can't say West is a better than one and than say he's interchangeable with the other.

And one more time, with those god-like Finals numbers you posted for West and since you want to ignore the fast pace, how is Kobe in the same tier as him? I mean, not even one of Kobe's Finals have even been in the same stratosphere as West's. So please, enlighten me.

[Milbuck]

You say it's not longevity and then you say their prime lasted twice as long. Do you know what longevity means? Cause you basically just contradicted yourself.

So what the hell is your argument for West being a better player than Wade but at the same time he's interchangeable with Kobe? Wade and Kobe are on the same tier as players, literally equals at their best. You can't say West is a better than one and than say he's interchangeable with the other.

And one more time, with those god-like Finals numbers you posted for West and since you want to ignore the fast pace, how is Kobe in the same tier as him? I mean, not even one of Kobe's Finals have even been in the same stratosphere as West's. So please, enlighten me.
The dude has no consistent argument...but the underlying agenda is obvious. Bring down Wade, bring down Kobe. The only way to do that in this topic is to bring up Jerry West.

Hell, if we're going with his argument and using Jerry West's god-like finals numbers, is West not better than Lebron?

Lebron's 2 best finals series:

2012: 29/10/7/2 on 56% TS

2014: 28/8/4/2 on 68% TS

Whereas Jerry West has....


Jerry West 1962 NBA finals: 31.1ppg / 5.2rpg / 2.7apg on 45.6% FG

Jerry West 1963 NBA finals: 29.5ppg / 6.8rpg / 4.5apg on 49% FG

Jerry West 1966 NBA finals: 33.9ppg / 6.4rpg / 5.1apg on 51.5% FG

Jerry West 1968 NBA finals: 31.3ppg / 5.8rpg / 5.3apg on 51.4% FG

Jerry West 1969 NBA finals: 37.9ppg / 4.7rpg / 7.4apg on 49% FG

Jerry West 1970 NBA finals: 31.3ppg / 3.4rpg / 7.7apg on 45% FG

By his logic, Jerry West's 4th best finals series is as impressive or more than any of Lebron's finals.

Obviously peak West > Lebron, am I right?

[ArbitraryWater]

NaturalWR: You aren't supposed to break down at 31.... In your 11th season. Not longevity yet, and you know it.. Deal with West being better for a longer time span.



The dude has no consistent argument...but the underlying agenda is obvious. Bring down Wade, bring down Kobe. The only way to do that in this topic is to bring up Jerry West.

Hell, if we're going with his argument and using Jerry West's god-like finals numbers, is West not better than Lebron?

Lebron's 2 best finals series:

2012: 29/10/7/2 on 56% TS

2014: 28/8/4/2 on 68% TS

Whereas Jerry West has....

By his logic, Jerry West's 4th best finals series is as impressive or more than any of Lebron's finals.

Obviously peak West > Lebron, am I right?

Whats not consistent?

West and LeBron, right off the bat, aren't that cvlose... LeBron has a better Peak, prime, LONGER too, will have more longevity, similar scorer, better playmaker, Defender, etc.

BTW, why leave out LeBron's 2013 finals?

Y'all don't need to get so upset about West having superior finals numbers than Wade... One of Wade's biggest Argument is his 2006 Finals. Well, West did that about 5 times. AND he has WAY more elite seasons than Wade... Then again you talk about "better", and talk about '09 Wade only... How convenient and fair, when West has a much longer prime.

Greats aren't supposed to break down at 31... Wade hasn't added a 3-point shot.

Obviously you still haven't given me anything about Kobe being so much better as PLAYER that its NOT interchangable... I'm waiting.

There isn't anything. That's the great thing. You will need to go the "5 ringz" route.

[Nowitness]

wade's best finals > west's best finals > lebron's best finals

his only dominating finals came in a lockout year against a young team and durant torched his ass. lebron dominates the no arenas Wizards like no one else can..

for real though. wade's best finals is a lot better than any of lebron's. no question :confusedshrug: :confusedshrug: