NBA witholding footage

[jlip]

I was watching Mike and Mike this morning and actor, Michael Rapaport was discussing the new 30 for 30 episode that he's directing about the 70's Knicks. He mentioned that during a home opener one season the Knicks were playing the Lakers and a fight broke out between Willis Reed and basically the entire Laker team. Supposedly Reed knocked out a player. (Pic (http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/unsungwillis.jpg)) Rapaport expressed how the NBA had hidden the footage of this fight, but eventually released it to him for the documentary.

This is simply a rhetorical question and me thinking "out loud", but I wonder how much classic footage does the league have that they won't release. Why would they not want the world to see these games?

[gasolina]

I was watching Mike and Mike this morning and actor, Michael Rapaport was discussing the new 30 for 30 episode that he's directing about the 70's Knicks. He mentioned that during a home opener one season the Knicks were playing the Lakers and a fight broke out between Willis Reed and basically the entire Laker team. Supposedly Reed knocked out a player. (Pic (http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/unsungwillis.jpg)) Rapaport expressed how the NBA had hidden the footage of this fight, but eventually released it to him for the documentary.

This is simply a rhetorical question and me thinking "out loud", but I wonder how much classic footage does the league have that they won't release. Why would they not want the world to see these games?
Reminds me of that scene in Semi-Pro where they'd fight during commercial breaks :lol

[L.Kizzle]

http://knickerblogger.net/unsung-knick-history-the-night-willis-fought-the-entire-laker-bench-and-won/

Willis Reed vs Rudy LaRusso and the Lakers in the greatest fight in NBA history.

picture is in the link.

[Rake2204]

I am quite interested in seeing this Reed footage.

More on topic, I've always imagined the NBA is sitting on a substantial amount of video, pictures, and otherwise that they have not released. In some cases, I'm assuming they'd just rather not (say, if it's footage of a brawl). And in other cases, I'm betting they just haven't really had a reason to put all that footage out there.

It's interesting when NBA.com filters in great quality footage of rare moments (Leon Wood had a short mixtape when the 1984 Draft documentary came out). I'm sure they're sitting on a ton of media but just opt to trickle out whatever they choose, however they choose.

[RedBlackAttack]

I was watching Mike and Mike this morning and actor, Michael Rapaport was discussing the new 30 for 30 episode that he's directing about the 70's Knicks. He mentioned that during a home opener one season the Knicks were playing the Lakers and a fight broke out between Willis Reed and basically the entire Laker team. Supposedly Reed knocked out a player. (Pic (http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/unsungwillis.jpg)) Rapaport expressed how the NBA had hidden the footage of this fight, but eventually released it to him for the documentary.

This is simply a rhetorical question and me thinking "out loud", but I wonder how much classic footage does the league have that they won't release. Why would they not want the world to see these games?
There is actually a pretty valid reason for not wanting to release the fight video. It sort of gives the NBA brand a "black eye," so to speak. I don't see a good reason for them holding back standard basketball footage.

[glidedrxlr22]

That was a good read. Damn....Willis Reed went ape sh!t all over those guys!

[Pointguard]

There are 700 conveniently missing Wilt games... I did a similar thread a few years back. They are definitely being withheld. There is no article saying the NBA lost 3000 games in a fire.

[L.Kizzle]

There is actually a pretty valid reason for not wanting to release the fight video. It sort of gives the NBA brand a "black eye," so to speak. I don't see a good reason for them holding back standard basketball footage.
A fight that happened 50 years ago will not give the NBA a black eye. All these players wanting a shorter season, touch fouls, ect is more damaging to the league than a brawl that happened in 1966.

[CavaliersFTW]

There are 700 conveniently missing Wilt games... I did a similar thread a few years back. They are definitely being withheld. There is no article saying the NBA lost 3000 games in a fire.
No.

The NBA just never saved games. No fire is needed. Plain and simple, the NBA did NOT have a process to archive film of games in the 1950's, 60's, nor most of the 70's. And some games didn't even have cameras in the arena.

The Knicks saved a few silent short game clips in the late 60's and early 70's for coaching/film review reasons of that time that were lucky enough to survive and most of these clips can be found on MSG tv from time to time and they will even go through the trouble of adding their own "sound" (commentary) to make it broadcast worthy. That's probably the only reason why a clip of this fight exists.

[ArbitraryWater]

The NBA does this from time to time.. and would still do this if they could get away with it. But with todays live streaming, broadcasts with so many people capturing games.. it's impossible (unless they start banning videos like they did on and off back in 06-08 on YouTube).

What are you talking about?

[jlip]

http://knickerblogger.net/unsung-knick-history-the-night-willis-fought-the-entire-laker-bench-and-won/

Willis Reed vs Rudy LaRusso and the Lakers in the greatest fight in NBA history.

picture is in the link.

Yeah. That's where I got the pic (http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/unsungwillis.jpg) from in the OP.

[sportjames23]

I am quite interested in seeing this Reed footage.

More on topic, I've always imagined the NBA is sitting on a substantial amount of video, pictures, and otherwise that they have not released. In some cases, I'm assuming they'd just rather not (say, if it's footage of a brawl). And in other cases, I'm betting they just haven't really had a reason to put all that footage out there.

It's interesting when NBA.com filters in great quality footage of rare moments (Leon Wood had a short mixtape when the 1984 Draft documentary came out). I'm sure they're sitting on a ton of media but just opt to trickle out whatever they choose, however they choose.


Hell, yeah the NBA sits on a whole crapload of footage.

Ok, MJ fan that I am (and yes, for the asswipes that complain about me always mentioning MJ, I'm using him in this example), I used to get tired of seeing the same highlights of him from the NBA. I was like, all these games he played and you jokers show the same footage all the time?

Thank God for YouTube, as I've seen so much footage of MJ's games that I wouldn't see from the NBA. And not just MJ, of course. Old footage of Magic, Bird, Barkley, Dr. J, etc.

[fpliii]

No.

The NBA just never saved games. No fire is needed. Plain and simple, the NBA did NOT have a process to archive film of games in the 1950's, 60's, nor most of the 70's. And some games didn't even have cameras in the arena.

The Knicks saved a few silent short game clips in the late 60's and early 70's for coaching/film review reasons of that time that were lucky enough to survive and most of these clips can be found on MSG tv from time to time and they will even go through the trouble of adding their own "sound" (commentary) to make it broadcast worthy. That's probably the only reason why a clip of this fight exists.
OT: Which of these Bucks Kareem games do you have?

Oct 18, 1969 Detroit Milwaukee 110-119 [Full Game]
Oct 30, 1969 Milwaukee Detroit 102-81 [~15 mins highlights]
Apr 11, 1970 SF 1 Milwaukee New York 102-110 [~15 mins highlights]
Oct 17, 1970 Milwaukee Atlanta 107-98 Details [Full Game]
Oct 20, 1970 Milwaukee Detroit 114-115 Details [~15 mins highlights]
Nov 27, 1970 New York Milwaukee 103-94 Details [Full Game]
Apr 30, 1971 F 4 Milwaukee Baltimore 118-106 Details [Second Half]
Jan 9, 1972 LA Lakers Milwaukee 104-120 Details [Full Game]
Nov 18, 1972 Milwaukee New York 86-87 Details [9min and 18min highlights versions]
Nov 17, 1973 Milwaukee New York 93-100 Details [32 mins]
May 10, 1974 F 6 Milwaukee Boston 102-101 Details [part of 4th quarter + OTs]
May 12, 1974 F 7 Boston Milwaukee 102-87 Details [4th quarter]

[Thorpesaurous]

No.

The NBA just never saved games. No fire is needed. Plain and simple, the NBA did NOT have a process to archive film of games in the 1950's, 60's, nor most of the 70's. And some games didn't even have cameras in the arena.

The Knicks saved a few silent short game clips in the late 60's and early 70's for coaching/film review reasons of that time that were lucky enough to survive and most of these clips can be found on MSG tv from time to time and they will even go through the trouble of adding their own "sound" (commentary) to make it broadcast worthy. That's probably the only reason why a clip of this fight exists.


This really is most likely the case. Many many games probably just never had footage kept on them, as there was little reason to think anyone would ever have had to. Up until like 81 the finals was being shown on tape delay, and the league had to get footage from the broadcasting network for game tapes because it wasn't even their property. Even some of that footage is missing.

And the Knicks do probably have the biggest archive. They've probably got more footage of their own team than the league does. The old footage they air on their "MSG Vault" show is often really fascinating. Sometimes there'll be half a Rangers game then the tape was reused so there'll be some of an old Knick game. It wouldn't shock me if the reason it took the league so long to get material for Micheal Rappaport was because they had to go through the Knicks for the footage. I like the guy, but he's a boob. So who even knows if what he spouts on a sports talk radio show means anything.

There's also probably plenty of footage the NBA has that they just have never gotten around to archiving. That shit can take forever.

[jlip]

I didn't feel like starting a new thread, so I am just going to post this here since it's somewhat related.

1977 Sports Illustrated Article about "enforcers" and NBA fights. (http://www.si.com/vault/1977/10/31/626402/nobody-but-nobody-is-going-to-hurt-my-teammates)

"[B][I]

[L.Kizzle]

There are a ton of fights I would love to see. One such was posted here either earlier this year or last year of a Pistons brawl from the late 70s that ended up in the stands.

Another was 5'9 Calvin Murphy knocking out 6'9 Sidney Wicks sometime in the mid-70s. It was reported that Calvin got into 18 fights ... and never lost one.

[Pointguard]

No.

The NBA just never saved games. No fire is needed. Plain and simple, the NBA did NOT have a process to archive film of games in the 1950's, 60's, nor most of the 70's. And some games didn't even have cameras in the arena.

The Knicks saved a few silent short game clips in the late 60's and early 70's for coaching/film review reasons of that time that were lucky enough to survive and most of these clips can be found on MSG tv from time to time and they will even go through the trouble of adding their own "sound" (commentary) to make it broadcast worthy. That's probably the only reason why a clip of this fight exists.

I enjoy your work but you aren't an official spokesperson for NBA archives.

They may not have had an archival system themselves and can word that to you and leave it at that. The broadcasting stations had to have an archival record. Anything that was went on national TV had two storage records not on NBA storage records, sometimes three were kept. Films of that age need specialist and can be maintained under another institutional name like National Basketball Storage or NBC sports archival.

I retrieved a lot myself in my first job. I saw Phil Chenier punch Walt Frazier in the face and Frazier absolutely destroy him. I saw that on a major networks reel to reel. I saw Chamberlain go off on somebody I didn't know on the Knicks. And this was when I worked for NY Public Library system on 53rd street - the Dornell branch which is no longer there. But the Lincoln center branch took most of the archival records. Those films did not make the trip so my guess is that it is under Bryant Park.

Later on when I was producing, I would request certain clips and got some things and watched the wording on how NBA kept a lid on distribution. But people into getting films as an institution know what a block is. Let somebody now go on Youtube with a full 1960's game. And then let you ask for that game.

[CavaliersFTW]

I enjoy your work but you aren't an official spokesperson for NBA archives.

They may not have had an archival system themselves and can word that to you and leave it at that. The broadcasting stations had to have an archival record. Anything that was went on national TV had two storage records not on NBA storage records, sometimes three were kept. Films of that age need specialist and can be maintained under another institutional name like National Basketball Storage or NBC sports archival.

I retrieved a lot myself in my first job. I saw Phil Chenier punch Walt Frazier in the face and Frazier absolutely destroy him. I saw that on a major networks reel to reel. I saw Chamberlain go off on somebody I didn't know on the Knicks. And this was when I worked for NY Public Library system on 53rd street - the Dornell branch which is no longer there. But the Lincoln center branch took most of the archival records. Those films did not make the trip so my guess is that it is under Bryant Park.

Later on when I was producing, I would request certain clips and got some things and watched the wording on how NBA kept a lid on distribution. But people into getting films as an institution know what a block is. Let somebody now go on Youtube with a full 1960's game. And then let you ask for that game.
Well, time will tell, I'm supposed to talk with someone in November from the NBA after the season starts about doing what I do, hopefully "with" or for them in the future. I suspect the majority of pre-1980's sources of basketball game film as it relates to the NBA has already been made public in some piece or form or another. This just off of how much I've seen from specifically the 1960's decade, and a brief discussion with two individuals from the NBA digital broadcast/production dept last year that contacted me.

I hope however, that what you say is true, that there are much more extensive untapped sources of footage. And I also hope the NBA has directly collected and is aware of it all already, and that they just haven't had the time or reason to dig into it yet. I suspect that isn't the case though. Because if what you've seen is true, you do realize the NBA could be totally oblivious to it, right? The NBA originally contacted me over a year ago because a historian there told his boss to contact me about my channel and the vibe I got was they wanted to know if I knew of anything they weren't aware of (which maybe I'm aware of some things, like NCAA game clips of guys like Gus Johnson or Luke Jackson). I remember specifically them saying they don't have enough people looking into it. They made a Finals montage for last seasons finals that included a clip of Jerry West's 60+ foot shot, and the guy I talked too on the phone had NO IDEA where that specific footage/play-by-play came from and when he asked the guys who put the short production together they said "we got it from you" (the NBA). So I don't know how organized or aware of their own sources they are.

[Taller than CP3]

I want backstage footage of Carmelo looking for KG in the Boston Celtics locker room.

[RoseCity07]

I have yet to find the footage of a Golden State vs Portland game when Rasheed Wallace hit a game winner on the road. I remember Blazers got attacked by the fans after that game. Chris Mills was thuggin hard and trying to fight our players. No one on Portland backed down and shit went down in the parking lot. Fans were throwing stuff at and spitting on our players.

[OldSchoolBBall]

The NBA has a TON of footage that they don't release, and which you will only see bits of on NBA approved videos and NBA TV specials. I've seen courtside angles of Jordan games against the Knicks and Cavs in crystal clarity.

There was talk several years ago about the NBA releasing and uploading its entire footage archive online in conjunction with Synergy Sports. All footage was actually supposed to be indexed play by play and searchable on various parameters (like, if you wanted to see footage of all games tied with 3:00 left in a given season, you could search for that). That never came to fruition, though, likely because of the NBA's greed.

[Psileas]

A somewhat relevant question: How about radio broadcasts of 50's-70's NBA? If even Wilt's ultra obscure 100 pointer has at least a quarter of available broadcast, can't this be the case for other games, as well?
(Btw, last time I had heard this broadcast, several months ago, I had tried to use this broadcast to find about Wilt's unofficial stats in that quarter. If multiple broadcasts exist, someone could do the same).

[magictricked]

The NBA has a TON of footage that they don't release, and which you will only see bits of on NBA approved videos and NBA TV specials. I've seen courtside angles of Jordan games against the Knicks and Cavs in crystal clarity.

There was talk several years ago about the NBA releasing and uploading its entire footage archive online in conjunction with Synergy Sports. All footage was actually supposed to be indexed play by play and searchable on various parameters (like, if you wanted to see footage of all games tied with 3:00 left in a given season, you could search for that). That never came to fruition, though, likely because of the NBA's greed.

I read a couple years ago there's discussions still going on. Problem is over the rights to the footage, the royalties and everything that goes with it.

The original plan had been for it to be free but demands from the various broadcasters but the project on hold.

It would have been a massive project from the start, a lot of that old game footage is on film

[CavaliersFTW]

A somewhat relevant question: How about radio broadcasts of 50's-70's NBA? If even Wilt's ultra obscure 100 pointer has at least a quarter of available broadcast, can't this be the case for other games, as well?
(Btw, last time I had heard this broadcast, several months ago, I had tried to use this broadcast to find about Wilt's unofficial stats in that quarter. If multiple broadcasts exist, someone could do the same).
He had at least one steal (from inbound pass) that quarter.

But that game was 'found' in some guys residence in the 1980's. The NBA nor the radio station that broadcast the game was the source. So that game isn't a sign of the NBA having a database of radio broadcasts, more just blind luck that somebody had the mind and equipment to start recording that game and saved it/stored it somewhere. Kind of like how the recent 1973 Knicks finals game surfaced, somebody unaffiliated with the NBA and ABC had recorded it with their own equipment in their own home.

[L.Kizzle]

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1982&dat=19630124&id=90FHAAAAIBAJ&sjid=8zMNAAAAIBAJ&pg=2621,2448063

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=799&dat=19730106&id=aVgzAAAAIBAJ&sjid=WlIDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3869,429686

[russwest0]

Footage has now been leaked :rockon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsOvUc3FGMk

[LAZERUSS]

I have always found it fascinating that there is video footage of the Lakers-Bucks game in 1972, in which the Bucks broke LA's 33 game winning streak...and yet, not one of their six WCF's games has ever surfaced...all of which were nationally televised live. Furthermore, I believe the majority of their '72-73 regular season H2H's were also televised.

And I am also curious as to what happened to local station footage, such as the Warrior-Laker games that were televised on KTVU in that same 71-72 season? I remember watching two of the Laker blowout wins that year (129-99 and 162-99.)

Bill Simmons also claims to have watched a Chamberlain game in which he scored 73 points. Of course, he is not a reliable resource, so you can only take that with a grain of salt.

On another forum a few years back, a reasonably well known sportswriter claimed to have watched entire footage of a Russell-Wilt battle in the mid-60's that he had watched at a public library. Which would seem to substantiate Pointguard's take in this thread.

It does seem to be a little suspicious that the only semi-full game footage that exists of Wilt, does not include even one of his 273 40 point games (albeit, there is solid footage of his 42 point All Star game in '62.)

Finally, I recall reading here a couple of years ago, that the NBA (or some organization) was sitting on a ton of unseen NBA footage, and that they were in the process of slowly releasing it to the public. Hopefully that is indeed the case.

[Psileas]

I have always found it fascinating that there is video footage of the Lakers-Bucks game in 1972, in which the Bucks broke LA's 33 game winning streak...and yet, not one of their six WCF's games has ever surfaced...all of which were nationally televised live. Furthermore, I believe the majority of their '72-73 regular season H2H's were also televised.

And I am also curious as to what happened to local station footage, such as the Warrior-Laker games that were televised on KTVU in that same 71-72 season? I remember watching two of the Laker blowout wins that year (129-99 and 162-99.)

Bill Simmons also claims to have watched a Chamberlain game in which he scored 73 points. Of course, he is not a reliable resource, so you can only take that with a grain of salt.

On another forum a few years back, a reasonably well known sportswriter claimed to have watched entire footage of a Russell-Wilt battle in the mid-60's that he had watched at a public library. Which would seem to substantiate Pointguard's take in this thread.

It does seem to be a little suspicious that the only semi-full game footage that exists of Wilt, does not include even one of his 273 40 point games (albeit, there is solid footage of his 42 point All Star game in '62.)

Finally, I recall reading here a couple of years ago, that the NBA (or some organization) was sitting on a ton of unseen NBA footage, and that they were in the process of slowly releasing it to the public. Hopefully that is indeed the case.

Also: Nbastats mentions a couple of Wilt's high shot blocking games as being nationally televised. Including, iirc, a 44/28/5 game from 1962, when he also blocks an estimated 28 shots...Plus, that famous 1969 game vs Phoenix, when he went 15/15/6/23, with 15 blocks in the first half alone.

[L.Kizzle]

Some of those broadcast were recorded over to make room for other games. It was common procedure back then.

[STATUTORY]

I enjoy your work but you aren't an official spokesperson for NBA archives.

They may not have had an archival system themselves and can word that to you and leave it at that. The broadcasting stations had to have an archival record. Anything that was went on national TV had two storage records not on NBA storage records, sometimes three were kept. Films of that age need specialist and can be maintained under another institutional name like National Basketball Storage or NBC sports archival.

I retrieved a lot myself in my first job. I saw Phil Chenier punch Walt Frazier in the face and Frazier absolutely destroy him. I saw that on a major networks reel to reel. I saw Chamberlain go off on somebody I didn't know on the Knicks. And this was when I worked for NY Public Library system on 53rd street - the Dornell branch which is no longer there. But the Lincoln center branch took most of the archival records. Those films did not make the trip so my guess is that it is under Bryant Park.

Later on when I was producing, I would request certain clips and got some things and watched the wording on how NBA kept a lid on distribution. But people into getting films as an institution know what a block is. Let somebody now go on Youtube with a full 1960's game. And then let you ask for that game.

why did NYC library archive NBA games?