SportsVu Data Proves Lebron Dominates the Ball Like a Point Guard

[3ball]

Starting in the 2013-2014 season, SportsVu cameras were installed in every NBA arena to track on-court player movements.

ISH poster jlip tracked down the data, which showed us that Lebron was 37th in the league (http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingTouches.html?pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=50&sortField=TOP&sortOrder=DES) in time of possession with the ball - this is the highest of any non-point guard, and he was the only non-point guard in the top 50, other than fellow ball-dominator (and suboptimal style-user) James Harden.

Considering he played off-ball in 2014 more than any season in his career and still was the most ball-dominant non-point guard, one can only imagine what the numbers must have looked like in Lebron's Cleveland days the first time around, when he almost never played off-ball at all.

Also, the list shows that the top 50 ball-dominators in 2014 averaged between 4 and 11 assists per game, so Lebron's 6.3 assist average is completely standard for primary ballhandlers, and overrated in comparison with off-ball players that get the same assist averages... A 6.3 assist average for a ball-dominator is also overrated compared to the real best-passing ball-dominators like Magic, Nash, or Stockton, who averaged twice the assists of Lebron.

So Lebron underachieves with his passing given his ball-domination - even Durant dominated the ball 27.5% less, but only had 13% less assists (5.5 to 6.3).
.

[VengefulAngel]

Starting in the 2013-2014 season, SportsVu cameras were installed in every NBA arena to track on-court player movements.

ISH poster jlip tracked down the data, which showed us that Lebron was 37th in the league (http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingTouches.html?pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=50&sortField=TOP&sortOrder=DES) in time of possession with the ball - this is the highest of any non-point guard, and he was the only non-point guard in the top 50, other than fellow ball-dominator (and suboptimal style-user) James Harden.

So the SportsVu data confirmed that even the Miami Lebron (who made efforts to play off-ball) was still a severe ball-dominator - just as much as point guards and more than any non-point guard.

One can only imagine what the numbers must have looked like in Lebron's Cleveland days the first time around, when he almost never played off-ball.

:facepalm

You're turning into the worst poster on this board.

Of course Lebron is the best player in world he should have the ball more than most other players...

[Smoke117]

Isn't this common sense?...that Lebron basically plays PG. Shut up, 3ball.

[ArbitraryWater]

36 PG's handled the ball more than LeBron in a 30-team league.. ?

wow

[Milbuck]

Through 11 seasons:

Michael Jordan: 33.5% Usage
5.7 assists per game, 1.97 AST/TO ratio

Lebron James: 31.6% Usage
6.9 assists per game, 2.09 AST/TO ratio

Considering they both dominate the ball like point guards, seems to me like Lebron is just a bit better at playing like a point guard.

[VengefulAngel]

Ill explain it quickly for those who are a little slow.

Dwyane Wade was out for a hefty proportion of the season who usually shares ball handling responsibilities with Lebron and the Miami PGS. Now if you were to divvy up possessions between Mario Chalmers initiating the offense or Lebron who would you choose?

Clearly you would choose Lebron. Plus Lebron averaged 6.4 assists if we compare it to the PG's above him, im pretty sure they would be comparable...

[BigTicket]

So the best player in the league is 37th in time of possesion, and you think that makes him a ballhog ?

And btw last I checked Kobe Bryant and Victor Oladipo are not PGs, but they had the ball more than he did.

[Sarcastic]

Through 11 seasons:

Michael Jordan: 33.5% Usage
5.7 assists per game, 1.97 AST/TO ratio

Lebron James: 31.6% Usage
6.9 assists per game, 2.09 AST/TO ratio

Considering they both dominate the ball like point guards, seems to me like Lebron is just a bit better at playing like a point guard.


Usage =/= ball dominance.

[jlip]

:facepalm

I just can't...

[Sarcastic]

So the best player in the league is 37th in time of possesion, and you think that makes him a ballhog ?

And btw last I checked Kobe Bryant and Victor Oladipo are not PGs, but they had the ball more than he did.


Time of possession is relative to position played, not how good you are.


A team that's best player is a center or PF will hold the ball a lot less than the PG, which potentially could be the worst player on the team.

[VengefulAngel]

Time of possession is relative to position played, not how good you are.


A team that's best player is a center or PF will hold the ball a lot less than the PG, which potentially could be the worst player on the team.

Ill explain it quickly for those who are a little slow.

Dwyane Wade was out for a hefty proportion of the season who usually shares ball handling responsibilities with Lebron and the Miami PGS. Now if you were to divvy up possessions between Mario Chalmers initiating the offense or Lebron who would you choose?

Clearly you would choose Lebron. Plus Lebron averaged 6.4 assists if we compare it to the PG's above him, im pretty sure they would be comparable...

... :facepalm

[3ball]

Through 11 seasons:

Michael Jordan: 33.5% Usage
5.7 assists per game, 1.97 AST/TO ratio

Lebron James: 31.6% Usage
6.9 assists per game, 2.09 AST/TO ratio

Considering they both dominate the ball like point guards, seems to me like Lebron is just a bit better at playing like a point guard.
Usage has nothing to do with ball dominance... ask anyone, or look it up for yourself.

Just like Smoke117 said above, it's common sense that Lebron plays point guard - but what that means is Lebron underachieves by barely averaging more assists than Larry Bird (6.3) and Jordan (5.7), who were off-ball players and played completely different from Lebron.

[BigTicket]

Time of possession is relative to position played, not how good you are.


A team that's best player is a center or PF will hold the ball a lot less than the PG, which potentially could be the worst player on the team.

That really depends on your style of play. Lebron is obviously a point forward, so he has the ball more. I'm actually surprised that he is that low.

[Cocaine80s]

op is ****ing crazy


youre worse than kenneth

[ArbitraryWater]

Anyone else underwhelmed by just 37th? I thought he surely he would have been top 15... And this was WITH WADE OUT and Chalmers on his usual garbage trip.

[3ball]

Lebron averaged 6.4 assists if we compare it to the PG's above him, im pretty sure they would be comparable...


that's the point - lebron dominates the ball, which makes it easier to rack up assists, yet he only averages 6.4 assists in the playoffs, which is basically the same as off-ball players Bird (6.5) and Jordan (5.7).

so lebron underachieves as a passer compared to guys like Jordan and Bird who averaged the same assists playing off-ball.

[VengefulAngel]

that's the point - lebron dominates the ball, which makes it easier to rack up assists, yet he only averages 6.4 assists in the playoffs, which is basically the same as off-ball players Bird (6.5) and Jordan (5.7).

so lebron underachieves as a passer compared to guys like Jordan and Bird who averaged the same assists playing off-ball.

You can't be that stupid, your own data showed that some PG's dominate the ball more than him and average less assists... We don't have such statistics during Jordans era, but it's quite obvious Jordan used a lot of possessions. (Usage rate). Face it Lebron is a more efficient scorer and playmaker than Jordan...

[3ball]

Anyone else underwhelmed by just 37th? I thought he surely he would have been top 15... And this was WITH WADE OUT and Chalmers on his usual garbage trip.
Who cares?

HE'S THE ONLY NON-POINT GUARD IN THE TOP 50

At 37th, there were 13 point guards BELOW him.

imagine how he would rank in his cleveland days when he didn't play off-ball at all.

now that we know definitively that lebron dominates the ball, we also know that he underachieves as a passer compared to guys like Jordan and Bird who averaged the same assists playing off-ball.

[J Shuttlesworth]

I'll take kennethegriffin back over this ****** anyday

[3ball]

I'll take kennethegriffin back over this ****** anyday
ur salty as hell because i've proved lebron's inferiority to MJ as a passer..

thanks jlip for the SportsVu data!!!.... :pimp:

now that we know definitively that lebron dominates the ball, we also know that he underachieves as a passer compared to guys like Jordan and Bird who averaged the same assists playing off-ball.

[VengefulAngel]

Who cares?

HE'S THE ONLY NON-POINT GUARD IN THE TOP 50

At 37th, there were 13 point guards BELOW him.

imagine how he would rank in his cleveland days when he didn't play off-ball at all.

now that we know definitively that lebron dominates the ball, we also know that he underachieves as a passer compared to guys like Jordan and Bird who averaged the same assists playing off-ball.

Can I have proof, you've provided the statistics on Lebron, now find them for Jordan. Otherwise stfu with this baseless speculation.

[J Shuttlesworth]

ur salty as hell because i've proved lebron's inferiority to MJ as a passer..

thanks jlip for the SportsVu data!!!.... :pimp:

now that we know definitively that lebron dominates the ball, we also know that he underachieves as a passer compared to guys like Jordan and Bird who averaged the same assists playing off-ball.
lol sorry bud but the eye test says otherwise. LeBron > MJ as a passer. MJ > LeBron at nearly everything else but 3 pt shooting

[3ball]

baseless


:roll: :roll: :roll:

the SportsVu data is about as substantive as you can get... again, thanks jlip.

And we actually do have data for Jordan as a primary ballhandler - he was put at point guard for the last 24 games of the 1989 season (http://www.complex.com/sports/2014/01/michael-jordan-point-guard-in-1989-posted-triple-double-10-of-11-games), and he averaged 30.4 points, 9.2 rebounds, and 10.9 assists (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1989/#322-345-sum:pgl_basic), with a stretch of 10 triple-doubles in 11 games.

Jordan's stretch as a primary ballhandler was clearly far better than Lebron has done in his entire career dominating the ball, and the numbers themselves are so ridiculous that they can only be viewed as a good indication of Jordan's own capability as the primary ballhandler... it's impossible to rack up those kind of numbers by chance.

[KirbyPls]

Through 11 seasons:

Michael Jordan: 33.5% Usage
5.7 assists per game, 1.97 AST/TO ratio

Lebron James: 31.6% Usage
6.9 assists per game, 2.09 AST/TO ratio

Considering they both dominate the ball like point guards, seems to me like Lebron is just a bit better at playing like a point guard.

Ether.

[Dro]

Through 11 seasons:

Michael Jordan: 33.5% Usage
5.7 assists per game, 1.97 AST/TO ratio

Lebron James: 31.6% Usage
6.9 assists per game, 2.09 AST/TO ratio

Considering they both dominate the ball like point guards, seems to me like Lebron is just a bit better at playing like a point guard.
This...Lebron is a more willing passer.....

[Hey Yo]

Who cares?

HE'S THE ONLY NON-POINT GUARD IN THE TOP 50

At 37th, there were 13 point guards BELOW him.

imagine how he would rank in his cleveland days when he didn't play off-ball at all.

now that we know definitively that lebron dominates the ball, we also know that he underachieves as a passer compared to guys like Jordan and Bird who averaged the same assists playing off-ball.
Actually it proves that Jordan and Bird had much better finishers as teammates than LeBron did in Cleveland. Not breaking news.

[Kblaze8855]

I'll take kennethegriffin back over this ****** anyday

he might actually be worse.

[Micku]

This...Lebron is a more willing passer.....

As other people said, usage rate doesn't mean time of possession of the ball. It means the percentage of team plays used by a player while he is on the floor. Like for example, Shaq had a usage rate of 31.8% in 2002. Does this mean he hold the ball more than Kobe who had a usage rate of 30.4% in 2002? Nope.

But LeBron does seem like a more willing passer than Jordan to me. And APG doesn't necessary mean better passer.

[3ball]

he might actually be worse.
you guys are seriously mad because i posted stats that show lebron dominates the ball, which proves he underachieves with his assist totals?

this is a perfectly reasonable conclusion to arrive at when looking at the stats - i.e. massive ball-dominator with greater surrounding talent only averages 6.4 assists and gets worse results - this means his passing is overrated... period.... :confusedshrug:
.

[Trollsmasher]

I'll take kennethegriffin back over this ****** anyday
this

[ArbitraryWater]

As other people said, usage rate doesn't mean time of possession of the ball. It means the percentage of team plays used by a player while he is on the floor. Like for example, Shaq had a usage rate of 31.8% in 2002. Does this mean he hold the ball more than Kobe who had a usage rate of 30.4% in 2002? Nope.

But LeBron does seem like a more willing passer than Jordan to me. And APG doesn't necessary mean better passer.

Considering they're on the same Team, shouldn't that be what it means? :wtf:

[Hey Yo]

you guys are seriously mad because i posted stats that show lebron dominates the ball, which proves he underachieves with his assist totals?

this is a perfectly reasonable conclusion to arrive at when looking at the stats - i.e. massive ball-dominator with greater surrounding talent only averages 6.4 assists and gets worse results - this means his passing is overrated... period.... :confusedshrug:
.
Compared to Jordan and Bird??

EOT......your trolling is dumb.

[3ball]

Compared to Jordan and Bird??

EOT......your trolling is dumb.
Jordan never had a 3rd scoring option like Lebron.

For his first 3 championships, he only played with one all-star, not two like Lebron.

Then when you compare Chalmers, Ray Allen and Cole to the likes of Paxson, Kerr and Armstrong - it's not even close - the Heat guys are way more talented.

you don't see kerr, paxson or armstrong dunking in games like those guys did:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/084f844b68059bd4184786ff2471ac4b.gif
http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/3e37f9bfc7862d74f376735b02e500bd.gif
http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/f2921b488e2c174947c19a867dc3677f.gif


But most importantly, the stats PROVE Jordan had the weakest supporting cast - in order to win his championships, Jordan had to have the highest ever PER, PPG, Usage, Win Shares.... the Win Share stat alone shows that he contributed more to his teams wins than anyone in history... :confusedshrug:
.

[Dro]

Jordan never had a 3rd scoring option like Lebron.

For his first 3 championships, he only played with one all-star, not two like Lebron.

Then when you compare Chalmers, Ray Allen and Cole to the likes of Paxson, Kerr and Armstrong - it's not even close - the Heat guys are way more talented.

you don't see kerr, paxson or armstrong dunking in games like those guys did:
http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/084f844b68059bd4184786ff2471ac4b.gif
http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/3e37f9bfc7862d74f376735b02e500bd.gif
http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/f2921b488e2c174947c19a867dc3677f.gif


But most importantly, the stats PROVE Jordan had the weakest supporting cast - in order to win his championships, Jordan had to have the highest ever PER, PPG, Usage, Win Shares.... the Win Share stat alone shows that he contributed more to his teams wins than anyone in history... :confusedshrug:
Sorry bro, I'm not buying this and you know I'm a Jordan fan. But Kerr, Paxson, Armstrong>>>>>Chalmers, Cole, and Allen any day. Now Allen is better than all of them even at this age but Kerr and Paxson are definitely better shooters and more reliable than Chalmers and Cole. If Lebron had Paxson and Kerr spotting up outside, he'd probably average even more assists....Assists are not just about ball dominance and passing ability, its also about the team's style of play, your teammates, do you have plenty of spacing/spot up shooters and the competition you're playing against......

[3ball]

Sorry bro, I'm not buying this and you know I'm a Jordan fan. But Kerr, Paxson, Armstrong>>>>>Chalmers, Cole, and Allen any day. Now Allen is better than all of them even at this age but Kerr and Paxson are definitely better shooters and more reliable than Chalmers and Cole. If Lebron had Paxson and Kerr spotting up outside, he'd probably average even more assists....Assists are not just about ball dominance and passing ability, its also about the team's style of play, your teammates, do you have plenty of spacing/spot up shooters and the competition you're playing against......
chalmers, ray allen, and cole were way more talented than kerr, paxson and armstrong - just look at their athleticism... they are just as good shooters too percentage-wise, and keep in mind that lebron's teams literally triple and quadrupled the number of 3's hit by Jordan's teams.

also, dallas and okc had no problem competing with the spurs - dallas almost beat them and okc might have won if they were healthy... spurs were far from a dominant team - they lost 6 games before the Finals... the spurs only destroyed the heat and portland... the crappy teams.

[3ball]

As other people said, usage rate doesn't mean time of possession of the ball. It means the percentage of team plays used by a player while he is on the floor. Like for example, Shaq had a usage rate of 31.8% in 2002. Does this mean he hold the ball more than Kobe who had a usage rate of 30.4% in 2002? Nope.

But LeBron does seem like a more willing passer than Jordan to me. And APG doesn't necessary mean better passer.
thank you for clarifying usage.

so what constitutes a better passer?... it's not assists per game as you said, which nullifies the fact that lebron's' assist average is not impressive given his ball dominance.

it's not team success... it's not the performance of your teammates... because if these things came into play, Jordan would be the better passer..

so what constitutes a better passer?

[russwest0]

LeBron is the second best PG of all time behind Magic Johnson. This isn't news.

[Joyner82reload]

Typical ball hogging LeBran. No wonder every other player sucks other than spot up shooters when playing with him. Sad that he basically ruined the 2nd half of Wade's career.

[Dro]

chalmers, ray allen, and cole were way more talented than kerr, paxson and armstrong - just look at their athleticism... they are just as good shooters too percentage-wise, and keep in mind that lebron's teams literally triple and quadrupled the number of 3's hit by Jordan's teams.

also, dallas and okc had no problem competing with the spurs - dallas almost beat them and okc might have won if they were healthy... spurs were far from a dominant team - they lost 6 games before the Finals... the spurs only destroyed the heat and portland... the crappy teams.
Ok stats aside, do you honestly think Cole and Chalmers are more reliable shooters? I think we know the answer to that. Cole and Chalmers being better all-around players is irrelevant here because we are talking about styles of play. Lebron is ball dominant, as he should be but he consistently tries to get guys involved. MJ didn't really try to get guys involved, he just ended up getting them involved because of all the attention he drew. Lebron is a more willing passer which means he'll snap a pass around the perimeter to a shooter and the pass is so quick, a basic chest pass but it gives his teammates a chance to make a quick move because the defender has to get out on them quick in case they take the shot because Lebron got the pass over to them so quickly.

Thats not how MJ did it. MJ is going to penetrate, draw defenders and maybe still take the shot or possibly kick it out to Kerr or Paxson or Armstrong. They fit his style. MJ doesn't need another player on his team to be a creator or to dominate the ball because he is already the best option. Same with Lebron, he's the best option, the best all-around player in the league. He may benefit more from having a teammate who can create, which he has now but at the same time, its still most beneficial to have the ball in his hands the most because he's the best option AND he's a willing passer.

Kerr, Paxson and Armstrong fit Jordan and Lebron's style actually. Jordan because they're always out there in case he needs to kick it to them. In Lebron's case they would be out there for when he CHOOSES to get them involved. They have different play styles but the same role on their teams.

[SpecialQue]

That son of a bitch.

[Micku]

Considering they're on the same Team, shouldn't that be what it means? :wtf:

Nope. Like I said, it doesn't measure the time you had the ball. It measures the amount of shots a individual could get his team. In other words, it's how significant the offense resolves around one player.

There are some articles explaining it further, but that's what it means. Here is a link too:


sage rate tells you the number of possessions a player utilizes while on the court. This statistic is a good indicator of how big of a role a particular player has in the team's offense. By following these steps, you can calculate usage rate in basketball.

https://www.ehow.com/how_2096381_calculate-usage-rate-basketball.html

Kobe definitely hold the ball more than Shaq even though his usage % is lower than Shaq. What it does say is that Shaq generated more shots and FTs, and contributed more to team offense than Kobe (ever so slightly). And since both of them are in the 30+%, it shows that the 2002 Lakers offense WAS Shaq and Kobe. Surprise...

Anyway, a high usage doesn't equal time of possession. For example, Chris Paul; he holds the ball a lot, which backed up in stats. He has a time of possession rate of 7.3 in 2013-14, which is top 6 in the league. Despite this, he has a usage percentage of 23.7%. How is this possible? It's cuz he got ppl on his team that could create shots. Blake Griffin has a usage percentage of 29%. Jamal Crawford usage is 27.2%.

Again, it's not because they hold the ball more than CP3. It's because they could generate more shots. The Clips offense in general is balance.

[jlip]

The original post for those who even care enough to take 3Ball seriously:


Last season Lebron was 37th in the league (http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingTouches.html?pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=50&sortField=TOP&sortOrder=DES) in time of possession with the ball, 29th in # of touches in the half court (http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingTouches.html?pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=50&sortField=FC_TCH&sortOrder=DES) per game, but 10th in assists per game. (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ast_per_g_top_10.html)

What's so interesting is that all the 36 players who held the ball longer than Lebron did so while playing fewer minutes per game. If Lebron is supposedly "ball dominant", what do you call those other 36 players who had the ball in their hands more than him?

So basically if you were to provide a list of the most "ball dominant" players in the league last season, you would have to go through every team in the league and then start over again before you reached Lebron who is a point forward.

Thanks to 3Ball I now know that the 37th leading scorer in the league now qualifies as a "dominant" scorer.:facepalm

[oarabbus]

LeBron doesn't dominate the ball like Jordan did, though.


Michael Jordan: All time Career highest Usage Percent

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/usg_pct_career.html

[russwest0]

LeBron doesn't dominate the ball like Jordan did, though.


Michael Jordan: All time Career highest Usage Percent

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/usg_pct_career.html

Yeah, and he also doesn't put up 11 assists per game and 3 turnovers per game in a whole Finals series. In fact, didn't he almost have as many turnovers as assists in his most recent Finals?

[navy]

Wait? We are complaining about the best player in the game being 37th?

[russwest0]

Wait? We are complaining about the best player in the game being 37th?

Durant was 37th?

:lol I guess when Westbrook went down he had to step up and be like the second PG of the offense, I always thought he worked off ball more than that though

[Micku]

thank you for clarifying usage.

so what constitutes a better passer?... it's not assists per game as you said, which nullifies the fact that lebron's' assist average is not impressive given his ball dominance.

it's not team success... it's not the performance of your teammates... because if these things came into play, Jordan would be the better passer..

so what constitutes a better passer?

Imo, it depends on your view point. It's subjective. I would probably say objectively it is assist to turnover ratio. Assuming if you have the stats of turnovers made by passing. But if we rely strictly on assist to turnover ratio, then Josh McRoberts was the second best passer in the NBA behind Chris Paul last year. So, ppl probably have to filter a few things.

A lot of ppl would say that Magic Johnson is the greatest passer ever because of his flash, creativity and court vision. Yet a guy like John Stockton assist at a higher rate in his prime and lower turnover rate.

So, both are right. Magic Johnson is more creative with his passing. More flash, more style, and able to create more passes in tight situations. He is better at entertaining. Stockton is more precise. Whoever is the better passer to you between those two guys will say what you think on what makes a great passer.

Like a legend like Red Auerbach did not like Pistol Pete passing because it was too flashy. He doesn't mind it if the teammate knows it's coming, but Pistol Pete passing skills was pretty freakin' unique. Red didn't care too much about the creativity and the flash as long as you execute. Magic Johnson emulated his passing skills after Pistol Pete and onwards to Showtime.

You can make the argument that a person who is more precise may not have the creativity or the capability to make those crazy passes that a player like Magic Johnson had. So, it depends on you. Both could be right. Player A is more creative while Player B is more efficient.

[Micku]

LeBron doesn't dominate the ball like Jordan did, though.


Michael Jordan: All time Career highest Usage Percent

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/usg_pct_career.html

Usage percentage doesn't mean you dominate the ball tho.

[navy]

Imo, it depends on your view point. It's subjective. I would probably say objectively it is assist to turnover ratio. Assuming if you have the stats of turnovers made by passing. But if we rely strictly on assist to turnover ratio, then Josh McRoberts was the second best passer in the NBA behind Chris Paul last year. So, ppl probably have to filter a few things.

A lot of ppl would say that Magic Johnson is the greatest passer ever because of his flash, creativity and court vision. Yet a guy like John Stockton assist at a higher rate in his prime and lower turnover rate.

So, both are right. Magic Johnson is more creative with his passing. More flash, more style, and able to create more passes in tight situations. He is better at entertaining. Stockton is more precise. Whoever is the better passer to you between those two guys will say what you think on what makes a great passer.

Like a legend like Red Auerbach did not like Pistol Pete passing because it was too flashy. He doesn't mind it if the teammate knows it's coming, but Pistol Pete passing skills was pretty freakin' unique. Red didn't care too much about the creativity and the flash as long as you execute. Magic Johnson emulated his passing skills after Pistol Pete and onwards to Showtime.

You can make the argument that a person who is more precise may not have the creativity or the capability to make those crazy passes that a player like Magic Johnson had. So, it depends on you. Both could be right. Player A is more creative while Player B is more efficient.

Lebron is more flashy than Jordan at passing, in my opinion. And has a better ratio. There is more to it than that.

The problem with the assist turnover ratio though is that it doesnt take into account offensive turnovers, step out of bounds turnovers, and getting the ball stolen in a non passing situation.

[Bandito]

You can't be that stupid, your own data showed that some PG's dominate the ball more than him and average less assists... We don't have such statistics during Jordans era, but it's quite obvious Jordan used a lot of possessions. (Usage rate). Face it Lebron is a more efficient scorer and playmaker than Jordan...
More efficient but not more dominant. I can accept that.:applause:

[Micku]

Lebron is more flashy than Jordan at passing, in my opinion. And has a better ratio. There is more to it than that.

The problem with the assist turnover ratio though is that it doesnt take into account offensive turnovers, step out of bounds turnovers, and getting the ball stolen in a non passing situation.

I agree with the second point. We have stats on passing turnovers now, but we don't have it prior to 00 I believe. I think that's a better stat to really judge.

On the first point, I don't really know. If there is more to it than assist to turnover ratio and creativity/flashness than I don't really see it atm in terms of stats. I guess what 3Ball is trying to advertise is the how long you have the ball vs assist. I think it's interesting. A guy like Bird could rack up the assists, without being controlling the ball as much as LeBron due to his awesome court vision. Plus he could be flashy. But I don't think his ratio is as good as LBJ. But again, even if Bird was a great passer from day one even though the apg wasn't as high.

[Kvnzhangyay]

The more 3ball posts the more convinced I am that he was never old enough to have watched MJ play

[ralph_i_el]

There is literally no point in talking to 3ball. He'll say anything to prop up MJ, no matter how insane or illogical it makes him sound.

[3ball]

C'mon fellas.. don't play dumb.

SportsVu shows that Lebron is the most ball-dominant non-point guard in the game today.

And he actually played off-ball more this last year than he ever has, and he was STILL the most ball-dominant non-point guard.

There is a strong chance that Lebron is the most ball-dominant non-point guard EVER.. Personally, I think he is.

And what does he have to show for it assist-wise: he averages literally half the assists of the best passing ball-dominant players (i.e. Magic, Nash, CP3), and instead averages the same assists as off-ball players Joakim Noah, prime Kevin Garnett, Bird, and Jordan..

Look at the facts - Lebron is 2/5 - is that ALL other people's fault, or does Lebron have holes in his game??... Of course some of that his his fault, and since he's the most ball-dominant non-point guard in the game but still averages the same assists as off-ball players, it stands to reason that his passing game is one aspect that's overrated.

[dunksby]

LeBron is a Point Forward I thought this was common knowledge?

[sdot_thadon]

Starting to think 3ball is Mj or his wife or some shit lol. So since Lebron is "the most ball dominant non-pg of all time" it diminishes his passing ability? I'd think if anything it bolsters his case. And besides that what's so hard to see? He's better at volume and quality, may not be some gigantic gap but substantial enough to be clear.

[ArbitraryWater]

OP, considering you said LeBron only being 37th, but the only non-PG in the top 50 (Which is by the way a lie), which non-Point Guard would you rather handle the ball more than LeBron?

[3ball]

Starting to think 3ball is Mj or his wife or some shit lol. So since Lebron is "the most ball dominant non-pg of all time" it diminishes his passing ability? I'd think if anything it bolsters his case. And besides that what's so hard to see? He's better at volume and quality, may not be some gigantic gap but substantial enough to be clear.
you know, i'll let the cat out of the bag - you guys are confusing lebron's superior ball-handling ability with better passing.

quick sidebar: the AND1 tapes were popularized AFTER Jordan's career as a Bull was over... seriously, real talk... the pros would tell you themselves that the original AND1 tapes showing how guys on the playground in NY and other cities were doing it, changed ball-handling - those tapes were like the youtube of handles in the late 90's - they revealed the best of what everyone was doing around the country.

but back to topic - being perhaps the most ball-dominant non-point guard of all time and only averaging 6.4 assists is not impressive when off-ball players like Noah, Garnett, Bird and the like were getting the same number of assists.... it's great HANDLES, but not great passing.

Of course we do have data for Jordan as a primary ballhandler - he was put at point guard for the last 24 games of the 1989 season (http://www.complex.com/sports/2014/01/michael-jordan-point-guard-in-1989-posted-triple-double-10-of-11-games), and he averaged 30.4 points, 9.2 rebounds, and 10.9 assists (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1989/#322-345-sum:pgl_basic), with a stretch of 10 triple-doubles in 11 games... now THAT is great passing ability, and the numbers reflect assists levels up there with the best-passing ball-dominators of all time (Magic, Nash, etc), not lebron's paltry 6.4 assists.

[ArbitraryWater]

You're right.. my bad, fellow ball-dominator James Harden and Lebron are the two non-point guards in the top 50... Lebron's ahead of Harden though, so he's still the most ball-dominant non-point guard.


Jordan..

Better passer, still a great ballhandler, more persistently aggressive versus the defense, and wants it more.

Post the top 50 here, nikka

And now name me a non-PG in this league who you want handling the ball more..

[3ball]

here you go...

[3ball]

the only non-PG in the top 50 (Which is by the way a lie)


You're right.. my bad, fellow ball-dominator James Harden and Lebron are the two non-point guards in the top 50... Lebron's ahead of Harden though, so he's still the most ball-dominant non-point guard.




which non-Point Guard would you rather handle the ball more than LeBron?


Jordan..

Better passer, still a great ballhandler, more persistently aggressive versus the defense, and wants it more.

[3ball]

post the top 50 here


John Wall (WAS) 81 36.6 96.8 7840 84.3 8.0 0.3 0.5 19.3 0.20 0.23
Rajon Rondo (BOS) 30 33.6 95.7 2872 78.2 7.8 1.6 2.8 11.7 0.12 0.15
Isaiah Thomas (SAC) 71 34.9 86.1 6112 74.3 7.8 0.7 2.0 20.4 0.24 0.27
Kemba Walker (CHA) 72 36.0 101.8 7333 90.0 7.7 0.6 1.5 17.7 0.17 0.20
Mike Conley (MEM) 73 33.7 87.9 6414 78.0 7.4 0.9 2.0 17.2 0.20 0.22
Chris Paul (LAC) 62 35.3 97.2 6027 82.5 7.3 1.0 2.7 19.1 0.20 0.23
Brandon Jennings (DET) 80 34.4 82.9 6633 72.7 7.1 0.5 0.8 15.5 0.19 0.21
Damian Lillard (POR) 82 36.0 85.3 6998 70.8 7.1 0.6 1.1 20.7 0.24 0.29
Stephen Curry (GSW) 77 36.7 80.8 6223 70.9 6.9 0.9 1.6 23.9 0.30 0.34
Ty Lawson (DEN) 62 36.1 81.3 5043 70.7 6.9 0.6 0.9 17.6 0.22 0.25
D.J. Augustin (CHI) 61 30.5 79.2 4833 72.1 6.9 0.6 0.9 14.9 0.19 0.21
Kyle Lowry (TOR) 78 36.4 91.7 7156 79.3 6.9 1.1 0.7 18.0 0.20 0.23
Ricky Rubio (MIN) 82 32.4 87.3 7157 70.3 6.9 1.1 0.7 9.5 0.11 0.14
Derrick Rose (CHI) 10 30.9 85.9 859 75.9 6.7 1.2 1.4 15.9 0.19 0.21
Jrue Holiday (NOP) 34 33.8 82.4 2802 65.5 6.6 0.9 1.4 14.3 0.17 0.22
Russell Westbrook (OKC) 46 31.0 75.9 3492 66.6 6.5 1.2 0.9 21.8 0.29 0.33
Michael Carter-Williams (PHI) 70 34.6 89.3 6251 74.0 6.5 1.8 1.7 16.7 0.19 0.23
Goran Dragic (PHX) 76 35.4 78.7 5984 69.7 6.4 1.1 2.1 20.3 0.26 0.29
Jordan Crawford (BOS) 39 31.0 76.4 2981 65.3 6.4 0.4 1.0 13.7 0.18 0.21
Brandon Knight (MIL) 72 33.5 84.5 6085 71.9 6.3 0.8 2.1 17.9 0.21 0.25
Trey Burke (UTA) 70 32.4 81.6 5713 70.4 6.2 0.3 1.6 12.8 0.16 0.18
Kyrie Irving (CLE) 71 35.3 82.5 5857 72.8 6.2 1.1 1.4 20.8 0.25 0.29
D.J. Augustin (TOTAL) 70 27.6 71.2 4985 64.9 6.2 0.6 0.8 13.3 0.19 0.20
Tony Parker (SAS) 68 29.5 77.0 5234 66.7 6.2 1.7 3.4 16.7 0.22 0.25
Deron Williams (BKN) 64 32.3 79.3 5073 67.2 6.2 0.8 1.3 14.3 0.18 0.21
Jeff Teague (ATL) 78 32.4 79.3 6183 72.1 6.2 0.7 1.3 16.5 0.21 0.23
Jameer Nelson (ORL) 68 32.2 73.4 4994 60.0 6.0 0.8 1.8 12.1 0.16 0.20
Eric Bledsoe (PHX) 43 33.0 72.2 3104 61.6 6.0 1.0 1.5 17.7 0.25 0.29
Victor Oladipo (ORL) 80 31.2 67.7 5413 55.4 5.7 0.8 0.9 13.8 0.20 0.25
Greivis Vasquez (SAC) 17 26.7 67.5 1148 56.3 5.5 0.4 2.0 10.0 0.15 0.18
Raymond Felton (NYK) 65 31.2 71.6 4656 57.0 5.5 0.5 0.7 9.7 0.14 0.17
George Hill (IND) 76 32.2 70.6 5369 58.4 5.3 0.8 1.2 10.3 0.15 0.18
Steve Blake (LAL) 27 33.2 76.6 2067 65.6 5.3 0.8 1.2 9.5 0.12 0.14
Kirk Hinrich (CHI) 73 29.1 68.3 4985 61.3 5.3 0.5 0.5 9.1 0.13 0.15
Kendall Marshall (LAL) 54 29.1 76.1 4110 62.5 5.1 0.3 0.8 8.0 0.10 0.13
LeBron James (MIA) 77 38.0 77.7 5984 63.8 5.1 3.5 3.7 27.1 0.35 0.43
James Harden (HOU) 73 38.3 73.2 5347 62.0 4.9 1.2 1.5 25.4 0.35 0.41
Jose Calderon (DAL) 81 30.6 76.1 6162 58.9 4.8 0.2 0.8 11.4 0.15 0.19
Ramon Sessions (MIL) 28 32.7 70.2 1966 60.8 4.8 1.7 2.8 15.8 0.23 0.26
Reggie Jackson (OKC) 80 28.7 60.4 4829 50.2 4.8 0.7 1.1 13.1 0.22 0.26
Greivis Vasquez (TOTAL) 78 22.7 58.5 4566 50.3 4.7 0.5 1.0 9.6 0.16 0.19
Monta Ellis (DAL) 82 37.0 71.4 5852 60.0 4.6 0.6 1.6 19.0 0.27 0.32
Brian Roberts (NOP) 72 23.3 51.9 3739 45.2 4.5 0.3 1.5 9.4 0.18 0.21
Steve Blake (TOTAL) 55 27.4 58.8 3234 50.4 4.5 0.5 0.7 6.9 0.12 0.14
Greivis Vasquez (TOR) 61 21.6 56.0 3418 48.7 4.5 0.5 0.7 9.5 0.17 0.20
Mario Chalmers (MIA) 73 30.0 66.8 4879 51.6 4.4 0.7 0.9 9.8 0.15 0.19
Aaron Brooks (DEN) 29 29.2 52.3 1516 44.2 4.3 0.7 0.3 11.9 0.23 0.27
Mo Williams (POR) 74 24.9 55.3 4091 46.5 4.3 0.2 0.6 9.7 0.18 0.21
Jordan Farmar (LAL)

[3ball]

Starting to think 3ball is Mj or his wife or some shit lol. So since Lebron is "the most ball dominant non-pg of all time" it diminishes his passing ability? I'd think if anything it bolsters his case. And besides that what's so hard to see? He's better at volume and quality, may not be some gigantic gap but substantial enough to be clear.
you know, i'll let the cat out of the bag - you guys are confusing lebron's superior ball-handling ability with better passing.

quick sidebar: the AND1 tapes were popularized AFTER Jordan's career as a Bull was over... seriously, real talk... the pros would tell you themselves that the original AND1 tapes showing how guys on the playground in NY and other cities were doing it, changed ball-handling - those tapes were like the youtube of handles in the late 90's - they revealed the best of what everyone was doing around the country.

but back to topic - being perhaps the most ball-dominant non-point guard of all time and only averaging 6.4 assists is not impressive when off-ball players like Noah, Garnett, Bird and the like were getting the same number of assists.... it's great HANDLES, but not great passing.

Of course we do have data for Jordan as a primary ballhandler - he was put at point guard for the last 24 games of the 1989 season (http://www.complex.com/sports/2014/01/michael-jordan-point-guard-in-1989-posted-triple-double-10-of-11-games), and he averaged 30.4 points, 9.2 rebounds, and 10.9 assists (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1989/#322-345-sum:pgl_basic), with a stretch of 10 triple-doubles in 11 games... now THAT is great passing ability, and the numbers reflect assists levels up there with the best-passing ball-dominators of all time (Magic, Nash, etc), not lebron's paltry 6.4 assists.

[ArbitraryWater]

Which active non-PG do you want handling the ball more than LeBron?

[aj1987]

Last season Lebron was 37th in the league in time of possession with the ball, 29th in # of touches in the half court per game, but 10th in assists per game.

What's so interesting is that all the 36 players who held the ball longer than Lebron did so while playing fewer minutes per game. If Lebron is supposedly "ball dominant", what do you call those other 36 players who had the ball in their hands more than him?

I still can't believe that I'm replying to threads made by this guy. :facepalm

[ArbitraryWater]

Jordan Crawford is a SG, Eric Bledsoe is a SG, James Harden is a SG, Monta Ellis is a SG...

[3ball]

Which active non-PG do you want handling the ball more than LeBron?


generally, when a guard is the primary ballhandler, it disrupts the natural composition of the team less than a forward.

otoh, having a forward as the primary ballhandler disrupts the team a bit, but it can be worth it if the forward is sufficiently productive, as lebron was pre-2010.

But i believe at this stage in his career, Lebron has slowed down a bit, and can't generate raw production like a 40+ point game or triple-double as easily as he used to, so he increasingly focuses on shooting efficiency - but this focus on shooting efficiency over raw production makes him a regular forward again that doesn't have quite enough raw production to justify him disrupting the team by being the primary ballhandler.

So since he's slowed down a bit and doesn't quite have sufficient raw production to justify the team disruption caused by a forward being the primary ballhandler, he should split his time between the block and as the primary ballhandler.. And the times he is on the block, the primary ballhandler could be any SG, SF, or even a big man.

[pauk]

Yes.... and where do you think Michael Jordan would be on this list? Certainly higher than #37...

[Inactive]

What exactly is that stat? The total time per game, in which a player is in possession of the ball? Meaning Lebron has the ball in his hands for 5.1 out of 38 minutes, or 13.4% of the time? That would put him at 78th in the league.

[3ball]

Yes.... and where do you think Michael Jordan would be on this list? Certainly higher than #37...


The data shows Lebron is a primary ballhandler just like point guards are.

The only time Jordan was a primary ballhandler was in 1989 for the last 24 games of the season (http://www.complex.com/sports/2014/01/michael-jordan-point-guard-in-1989-posted-triple-double-10-of-11-games)... He averaged 30.4 points, 9.2 rebounds, and 10.9 assists (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1989/#322-345-sum:pgl_basic), with a stretch of 10 triple-doubles in 11 games...

Now THAT is great passing ability, and the numbers reflect assists levels up there with the best-passing ball-dominators of all time (Magic, Nash, etc), much more than lebron's pretty average (for a ball-dominator) 6.4 assists.

[Trollsmasher]

ITT: the best player in the game touches the ball often

[3ball]

ITT: the best player in the game touches the ball often
virtually ALL non-point guards touched the ball less than Lebron and many starting point guards too.

i.e. durant had his hands on the ball 27.5% less than lebron.
.

[sdot_thadon]

you know, i'll let the cat out of the bag - you guys are confusing lebron's superior ball-handling ability with better passing.
It's rare I use this but:biggums:
Lebron is not a superior ballhandler. He's amazing for his size and build but ball handling is Mj any day of the week. At best I'd say he's near Mj level as far as ball security.

But back on topic, I feel lebron is a better passer due to:
1. Volume, as the raw numbers bear this out over more than a decade sample sizes.
2. Lebron throws a much higher variety of passes than Mj did, as well as having the strength to deliver them faster.
3. The fact that every team has lebron as the primary ball handler tells you maybe he's the best option for the job, while on Mj's team the best option was to get the ball out of his hands a bit so his teammates could contribute. ....

[3ball]

It's rare I use this but:biggums:
Lebron is not a superior ballhandler. He's amazing for his size and build but ball handling is Mj any day of the week. At best I'd say he's near Mj level as far as ball security.

But back on topic, I feel lebron is a better passer due to:
1. Volume, as the raw numbers bear this out over more than a decade sample sizes.
2. Lebron throws a much higher variety of passes than Mj did, as well as having the strength to deliver them faster.
3. The fact that every team has lebron as the primary ball handler tells you maybe he's the best option for the job, while on Mj's team the best option was to get the ball out of his hands a bit so his teammates could contribute. ....
so you think jordan had better handles... okay, he had better handles too.

also, the reason jordan played off-ball is because he had goat skill off-ball, and this style of play happened to be the most optimal style for a non-point guard to give his team the best chance of WINNING.

and he contributed more than any player in history as an off-ball player (highest ever PPG.. PER.. Win Shares.. WS/48... Usage, which we know is how often he finished plays... i.e. shaq had higher usage than cp3).

and as we know, the time Jordan was the primary ballhandler, his assist numbers were better than anything in Lebron's entire career.

[3ball]

One guy dominates the ball as much as point guards and his assist average is about average for a ball-dominator.

This average assist level for a ball-dominator is the same assist average as off-ball players.

[pauk]

The data shows Lebron is a primary ballhandler just like point guards are.

The only time Jordan was a primary ballhandler was in 1989 for the last 24 games of the season (http://www.complex.com/sports/2014/01/michael-jordan-point-guard-in-1989-posted-triple-double-10-of-11-games)... He averaged 30.4 points, 9.2 rebounds, and 10.9 assists (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1989/#322-345-sum:pgl_basic), with a stretch of 10 triple-doubles in 11 games...

Now THAT is great passing ability, and the numbers reflect assists levels up there with the best-passing ball-dominators of all time (Magic, Nash, etc), much more than lebron's pretty average (for a ball-dominator) 6.4 assists.

What? What you posted has little to do with being a primary ballhandler, it has to do with how much you possess the ball....... you can do that by never being a primary ballhandler..... even Kobe Bryant is higher than Lebron on that list....

Considering Jordan's usage rate was EXTREMLY MUCH higher than Lebron's (and the highest in NBA history) he would probably be #1 on this list..... you are aware of that right?

Once you do possess the ball its up to you what you do with it..... pass or score... Jordan was more of the score kind....

[3ball]

I feel lebron is a better passer due to:
1. Volume, as the raw numbers bear this out over more than a decade sample sizes.
2. Lebron throws a much higher variety of passes than Mj did, as well as having the strength to deliver them faster.
3. The fact that every team has lebron as the primary ball handler tells you maybe he's the best option for the job, while on Mj's team the best option was to get the ball out of his hands a bit so his teammates could contribute. ....


You have no idea who threw the higher variety of passes - Jordan averaged 30, 9 and 11 for 24 games at point guard - apparently, he was throwing better passes than Lebron.

And why would volume be impressive?

Lebron has a high volume of games where he dominated the ball like a point guard, and averaged 6.4 assists.

How is that any more impressive?.. that's close to average for a ball-dominator.

What is more impressive is an off-ball player getting the same number of assists as a guy that dominated the ball as much as point guards.

[3ball]

What you posted has nothing to do with being a primary ballhandler, it has to do with how much you possess the ball..


So why is EVERYONE in the top 50 a point guard?... (except Lebron of course).




Considering Jordan's usage rate was EXTREMLY MUCH higher than Lebron's (and the highest in NBA history) he would probably be #1 on this list..... you are aware of that right?


For the 80 millionth time... usage has nothing to do with ball-dominance.

Usage measures how often you finish possessions for your team (either by shooting, getting FT's or turning it over)... i.e. Shaq has a higher usage than CP3 for example.

[pauk]

So why is EVERYONE in the top 50 a point guard?... (except Lebron of course).


For the 80 millionth time... usage has nothing to do with ball-dominance.

Usage measures how often you finish possessions for your team (either by shooting, getting FT's or turning it over)... i.e. Shaq has a higher usage than CP3 for example.

Is Kobe a point-guard? James Harden? Jordan Crawford?

Usage has to do with what you said aswell, why? Because it counts ALL possessions, any time you USE the ball is your USAGE...... im sorry.....

[pauk]

...and please, give this up already, Lebron is a better passer with greater vision..... the quicker you accept this the quicker your basketball judgements will heal......

[3ball]

Is Kobe a point-guard? James Harden? Jordan Crawford?

Usage has to do with what you said aswell, why? Because it counts ALL possessions, any type you USE the ball is your USAGE...... im sorry.....
ur a dumbass.

and your lack of understanding of usage is wasting everyone's time.

go back to school if you aren't intelligent enough to understand the concept.

usage measures your shot attempts, FT's and turnovers.... it literally adds up those stats - THAT'S IT.

it has nothing to do with ball dominance.

a guy can attempt shots, FT's and turnovers without dominating the ball dumbass.

literally, your argument to prop up lebron is to lie about what usage means..

[sdot_thadon]

You have no idea who threw the higher variety of passes - Jordan averaged 30, 9 and 11 for 24 games at point guard - apparently, he was throwing better passes than Lebron.

And why would volume be impressive?

Lebron has a high volume of games where he dominated the ball like a point guard, and averaged 6.4 assists.

How is that any more impressive?.. that's close to average for a ball-dominator.

What is more impressive is an off-ball player getting the same number of assists as a guy that dominated the ball as much as point guards.
Ummm, maybe I watched both of their careers? Mj was better than Lebron at improvising passes, aka turning shots into passes and perhaps that's a function of his shoot 1st mentality. But a basic passing ability Lebron throws more types and more advanced passes than Mj ever did. The types of passes Lebron does on a regular basis were rare moments for Mj. If you've watched either career this should be a dead issue....

[3ball]

The original post for those who even care enough to take 3Ball seriously:


Lebron is the only non-point guard in the top 50 of the "time with the ball" stat - EVERY other guy in the top 50 is a point guard except Lebron.

And his 6.4 assist-average is close to average for a ball-dominator - just look at the other guys in the top 50 (again, all point guards)... 6.4 is super-average for a ball-dominator.

lebron's style is suboptimal and gets poorer results, but it does give him a big advantage in racking up assists... nonetheless he gets the same assists as off-ball players Bird, prime Garnett, Noah, or Jordan..

the fact that you can't concede lebron's passing is overrated despite all the evidence is shameful - if you guys get me in an argument, i will concede... i won't lie and make stuff up to avoid defeat... take it like a man.
.

[3ball]

The types of passes Lebron does on a regular basis were rare moments for Mj.


Jordan played off-ball, so he had assists from the post and off-ball that Lebron rarely gets..

And Lebron is a primary ballhandler, so he gets assists that Jordan didn't get as often.

But again, when Jordan DID play primary ballhandler for 24 games at the end of the 1989 season (http://www.complex.com/sports/2014/01/michael-jordan-point-guard-in-1989-posted-triple-double-10-of-11-games), he proved he was a better passer than Lebron by averaging 30.4 points, 9.2 rebounds, and 10.9 assists (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1989/#322-345-sum:pgl_basic), including a stretch of 10 triple-doubles in 11 games.

Whereas Lebron only averages 6.4 assists - that is super-average for a primary ballhandler, and about the same as various off-ball players like Noah, Bird, prime Garnett, and Jordan.
.

[tpols]

Is Kobe a point-guard? James Harden? Jordan Crawford?

Usage has to do with what you said aswell, why? Because it counts ALL possessions, any time you USE the ball is your USAGE...... im sorry.....

Why are you so stubborn ? lol.. a pure shooter who doesnt dribble the ball at all(or very little), like reggie miller for example has a much higher usage than a guy like mark jackson who spends all his time dribbling, backing down, handling the ball, but doesnt finish plays, only initiates them.

[Dro]

It's rare I use this but:biggums:
Lebron is not a superior ballhandler. He's amazing for his size and build but ball handling is Mj any day of the week. At best I'd say he's near Mj level as far as ball security.

But back on topic, I feel lebron is a better passer due to:
1. Volume, as the raw numbers bear this out over more than a decade sample sizes.
2. Lebron throws a much higher variety of passes than Mj did, as well as having the strength to deliver them faster.
3. The fact that every team has lebron as the primary ball handler tells you maybe he's the best option for the job, while on Mj's team the best option was to get the ball out of his hands a bit so his teammates could contribute. ....
I do agree with this. Lebron is a decent ball-handler for his size but he uses his quickness and strength very effectively to get to the basket.

MJ is an underrated ball-handler IMO. He frequently used crossovers, not carrying crossovers like the Iverson or Jamal Crawfords, Jordan used a basic but very quick crossover, he used the in and out move OFTEN, he went behind the back more than Lebron does also.

[sdot_thadon]

Jordan played off-ball, so he had assists from the post and off-ball that Lebron rarely gets..

And Lebron is a primary ballhandler, so he gets assists that Jordan didn't get as often.

But again, when Jordan DID play primary ballhandler for 24 games at the end of the 1989 season (http://www.complex.com/sports/2014/01/michael-jordan-point-guard-in-1989-posted-triple-double-10-of-11-games), he proved he was a better passer than Lebron by averaging 30.4 points, 9.2 rebounds, and 10.9 assists (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1989/#322-345-sum:pgl_basic), including a stretch of 10 triple-doubles in 11 games.

Whereas Lebron only averages 6.4 assists - that is super-average for a primary ballhandler, and about the same as various off-ball players like Noah, Bird, prime Garnett, and Jordan.
.
Way to quote a piece of my post then proceed to not address it...

[sdot_thadon]

I do agree with this. Lebron is a decent ball-handler for his size but he uses his quickness and strength very effectively to get to the basket.

MJ is an underrated ball-handler IMO. He frequently used crossovers, not carrying crossovers like the Iverson or Jamal Crawfords, Jordan used a basic but very quick crossover, he used the in and out move OFTEN, he went behind the back more than Lebron does also.
:applause:
Really easy to see the ones who actually watched Mj here.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Why are you so stubborn ? lol.. a pure shooter who doesnt dribble the ball at all(or very little), like reggie miller for example has a much higher usage than a guy like mark jackson who spends all his time dribbling, backing down, handling the ball, but doesnt finish plays, only initiates them.

^This. Great example, out of plenty...

On average, LeBron HANDLES the ball more than Jordan did... Clear when you watch enough from both (even more of a discrepancy comparing to someone like Larry Bird), USG% ain't gonna "tell" you that.

[SHAQisGOAT]

I do agree with this. Lebron is a decent ball-handler for his size but he uses his quickness and strength very effectively to get to the basket.

MJ is an underrated ball-handler IMO. He frequently used crossovers, not carrying crossovers like the Iverson or Jamal Crawfords, Jordan used a basic but very quick crossover, he used the in and out move OFTEN, he went behind the back more than Lebron does also.

Yea, I think that Jordan's an underrated ball-handler, or has underrated handles...

[HurricaneKid]

So why is EVERYONE in the top 50 a point guard?... (except Lebron of course).


You've been called out on this repeatedly. Just to clarify, are Kobe Bryant, Jamal Crawford, Harden point guards?

[Trollsmasher]

vote

http://strawpoll.me/2799299/

[DatAsh]

What? What you posted has little to do with being a primary ballhandler, it has to do with how much you possess the ball....... you can do that by never being a primary ballhandler..... even Kobe Bryant is higher than Lebron on that list....

Considering Jordan's usage rate was EXTREMLY MUCH higher than Lebron's (and the highest in NBA history) he would probably be #1 on this list..... you are aware of that right?

Once you do possess the ball its up to you what you do with it..... pass or score... Jordan was more of the score kind....

I think you may be confusing usage rate with time of possession. Sometimes they mirror each other, sometimes they don't.

Player A dribbles the ball at the top of the key for 20 seconds every possession, then he passes it to a pg who passes to someone else. Player B runs off ball for 20 seconds every possession, then his pg passes him the ball and he either shoots it or passes it to someone else.

Player A has a very high time of possession but a very low usage rate. Player B has a very high usage rate but a very low. time of possession.

Sorry, I don't mean to pick on you, but I just keep seeing people cite USG% numbers when they aren't really applicable here. The numbers Jlip posted are the correct numbers, unfortunately we don't have those for Jordan, so we just have to judge by watching games.


Lebron really looked better off the ball last year than in previous years though. It's really cool to see him add things to his game every year.

[Kblaze8855]

You are slowly becoming the worst serious poster of all time.

The only reason id feel wrong stopping you is being pretty sure...you arent joking...and you dont make a gang of topics. And you making a sincere effort to explain yourself. I generally ignore such people no matter how wrong they happen to be.

But you are god awful.

Not so much explaining that to you....as to the people often asking why you arent banned yet in reported posts, PMs, and so on.

To be clear once more....

Being an idiot is not a banable offense.

People can be as wrong and stubborn as they like.

Hes not actually breaking any rule im aware of.

[SugarHill]

He's not even an idiot. He makes a lot of great points. He's just the most biased dude of all time.

[TheMarkMadsen]

He's not even an idiot. He makes a lot of great points. He's just the most biased dude of all time.

He makes a lot of good points and Ive never seen him not back it up without evidence but yes he's very biased.

It's sad to see mods calling him idiot..

[mehyaM24]

He's not even an idiot. He makes a lot of great points. He's just the most biased dude of all time.
^what moe says. 3ball is just biased , but he's no worse than your ordinary player fan.

[Smoke117]

He makes a lot of good points and Ive never seen him not back it up without evidence

It's sad to see mods calling him an idiot..

I know right? They could be calling your kobe stan ass an idiot instead.

[TheMarkMadsen]

I know right? They could be calling your kobe stan ass an idiot instead.

Ok

[Kblaze8855]

There are different kinds of idiots.

And it varies a lot with the subject matter. I wouldnt sound like an idiot on a number of subjects....but I would on others.

Im not sure this guy even watches basketball. He has nothing to say about basketball. he has a gang of numbers and no idea how they apply.

Once I saw him claim Jordan is a superior 3 point shooter to guys who made many many more at a much better rate because...he would be if he wanted to...

Done. Cant take it serious.

He also has a bad habit of claiming things are proven....to the extent im not sure he knows what the word means.

I could speak with eloquence and post numbers about baseball all day.

Wouldnt mean I know what im talking about.

Id seem an idiot on the subject...even if I explained my idiotic points in a reasonable manner.

That I....a fan of the Bulls since just before MJ...

A guy who has as extensive a collection of Jordan footage as probably exists in any non maniacs house...a guy who has Jordan posters from the 80s rolled up in his closet....

Me...finding his posts unbearable...says something.

He makes fans of Jordan look bad.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

There are different kinds of idiots.

And it varies a lot with the subject matter. I wouldnt sound like an idiot on a number of subjects....but I would on others.

Im not sure this guy even watches basketball. He has nothing to say about basketball. he has a gang of numbers and no idea how they apply.

Once I saw him claim Jordan is a superior 3 point shooter to guys who made many many more at a much better rate because...he would be if he wanted to...

Done. Cant take it serious.

I could speak with eloquence and post numbers about baseball all day.

Wouldnt mean I know what im talking about.

Id seem an idiot on the subject...even if I explained my idiotic points in a reasonable manner.

Jordan fan here <-- gotta agree w/ Blaze.

My question is this: how do you differentiate an idiot who's willfully ignorant (that continues to make thread topics) - and a spamming troll? Are they not one in the same?

[ArbitraryWater]

He makes a lot of good points and Ive never seen him not back it up without evidence but yes he's very biased.

It's sad to see mods calling him idiot..

lmfao at YOU defending him :roll:

[ArbitraryWater]

Jordan fan here <-- gotta agree w/ Blaze. My question is this: how do you differentiate an idiot who's willfully ignorant (that continues to make thread topics) - and a spamming troll? Are they not one in the same?

Which, if we're being honest, 3ball is..

A couple of times he was absolutely getting shitted on by multiple posters, and then he showed his true colors and looked like an idiot PLUS troll with his "5 > 2" stuff... Insecurity came out.

[TheMarkMadsen]

lmfao at YOU defending him :roll:

I saw you were the last person to post in this thread and immediately assumed you'd be on my sack

I was right

[ArbitraryWater]

How can you blatantly lie to yourself like that?


Jordan Crawford is a SG, Eric Bledsoe is a SG, James Harden is a SG, Monta Ellis is a SG...

LeBron being THIRTY SEVENTH is pretty damn low... So you shifted your argument to "Biggest non-PG Ball dominator"


And you STILL couldn't answer which non-PG you would rather have handling the Ball in THIS league....

[Milbuck]

You are slowly becoming the worst serious poster of all time.

The only reason id feel wrong stopping you is being pretty sure...you arent joking...and you dont make a gang of topics. And you making a sincere effort to explain yourself. I generally ignore such people no matter how wrong they happen to be.

But you are god awful.

Not so much explaining that to you....as to the people often asking why you arent banned yet in reported posts, PMs, and so on.

To be clear once more....

Being an idiot is not a banable offense.

People can be as wrong and stubborn as they like.

Hes not actually breaking any rule im aware of.
Except that he kinda is. He may actually believe a lot of the stuff he types, but he's joked several times about his gimmick, his reputation on other forums, and how hard it's been for those other forums to get rid of him, etc. He's definitely a troll, but just a really, really ****ing good one. And your post explains why.

[Smoke117]

Except that he kinda is. He may actually believe a lot of the stuff he types, but he's joked several times about his gimmick, his reputation on other forums, and how hard it's been for those other forums to get rid of him, etc. He's definitely a troll, but just a really, really ****ing good one. And your post explains why.

Seems like a lot of effort to go to just to troll...now I just feel sorry for him and his life. :(

[3ball]

Except that he kinda is. He may actually believe a lot of the stuff he types, but he's joked several times about his gimmick, his reputation on other forums, and how hard it's been for those other forums to get rid of him, etc. He's definitely a troll, but just a really, really ****ing good one. And your post explains why.



How can I be joking about STATS AND FACTS????... Here's 3:


FACT #1: Excluding point guards, Lebron is the biggest ball-dominator in the league.


FACT #2: Lebron dominates the ball as much as point guards - he and Harden are the only non-point guards on the top 50 list of ball-dominators


FACT #3: Lebron gets 6.3 assists per game, which is average for ball-dominators and about the same as off-ball players Bird and Jordan


CONCLUSION: Given he has a massive advantage by employing a ball-dominating style, his assist averages are an underachievement and overrated when compared to off-ball players Bird and Jordan.

Lebron simply doesn't get enough assists considering how much he dominates the ball - even Kevin Durant only gets 13% less assists (5.5 to 6.3) despite having 27.5% less time with the ball.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

F*cked up part is, I know who 3ball's "main" is. Guy gives RG a run for his money, just on pure insanity.

Still, I'm not sure if he's actually a Bryant or a Jordan stan. Maybe a hybrid. :eek:

[Milbuck]

Seems like a lot of effort to go to just to troll...now I just feel sorry for him and his life. :(
That's the thing, I don't know if his trolling takes him that much time. He's been copy-pasting posts for weeks upon weeks now. In that Lebron vs MJ 3-pt thread I counted something like 15 times he posted the exact same paragraph...same exact thing happened in the vertical thread with another giant post.

He just modifies huge posts that are already out there, and spams them on any Lebron thread he can find. And the few times he breaks character and cusses someone out, resorts to the typical 6/6>2/5 stuff, it's still not frequent enough to be considered blatant trolling. The dude has found the perfect balance between unbannable retardery and obvious trolling.

[ArbitraryWater]

Hey OP


John Wall (WAS) 81 36.6 96.8 7840 84.3 8.0 0.3 0.5 19.3 0.20 0.23
Rajon Rondo (BOS) 30 33.6 95.7 2872 78.2 7.8 1.6 2.8 11.7 0.12 0.15
Isaiah Thomas (SAC) 71 34.9 86.1 6112 74.3 7.8 0.7 2.0 20.4 0.24 0.27
Kemba Walker (CHA) 72 36.0 101.8 7333 90.0 7.7 0.6 1.5 17.7 0.17 0.20
Mike Conley (MEM) 73 33.7 87.9 6414 78.0 7.4 0.9 2.0 17.2 0.20 0.22
Chris Paul (LAC) 62 35.3 97.2 6027 82.5 7.3 1.0 2.7 19.1 0.20 0.23
Brandon Jennings (DET) 80 34.4 82.9 6633 72.7 7.1 0.5 0.8 15.5 0.19 0.21
Damian Lillard (POR) 82 36.0 85.3 6998 70.8 7.1 0.6 1.1 20.7 0.24 0.29
Stephen Curry (GSW) 77 36.7 80.8 6223 70.9 6.9 0.9 1.6 23.9 0.30 0.34
Ty Lawson (DEN) 62 36.1 81.3 5043 70.7 6.9 0.6 0.9 17.6 0.22 0.25
D.J. Augustin (CHI) 61 30.5 79.2 4833 72.1 6.9 0.6 0.9 14.9 0.19 0.21
Kyle Lowry (TOR) 78 36.4 91.7 7156 79.3 6.9 1.1 0.7 18.0 0.20 0.23
Ricky Rubio (MIN) 82 32.4 87.3 7157 70.3 6.9 1.1 0.7 9.5 0.11 0.14
Derrick Rose (CHI) 10 30.9 85.9 859 75.9 6.7 1.2 1.4 15.9 0.19 0.21
Jrue Holiday (NOP) 34 33.8 82.4 2802 65.5 6.6 0.9 1.4 14.3 0.17 0.22
Russell Westbrook (OKC) 46 31.0 75.9 3492 66.6 6.5 1.2 0.9 21.8 0.29 0.33
Michael Carter-Williams (PHI) 70 34.6 89.3 6251 74.0 6.5 1.8 1.7 16.7 0.19 0.23
Goran Dragic (PHX) 76 35.4 78.7 5984 69.7 6.4 1.1 2.1 20.3 0.26 0.29
Jordan Crawford (BOS) 39 31.0 76.4 2981 65.3 6.4 0.4 1.0 13.7 0.18 0.21
Brandon Knight (MIL) 72 33.5 84.5 6085 71.9 6.3 0.8 2.1 17.9 0.21 0.25
Trey Burke (UTA) 70 32.4 81.6 5713 70.4 6.2 0.3 1.6 12.8 0.16 0.18
Kyrie Irving (CLE) 71 35.3 82.5 5857 72.8 6.2 1.1 1.4 20.8 0.25 0.29
D.J. Augustin (TOTAL) 70 27.6 71.2 4985 64.9 6.2 0.6 0.8 13.3 0.19 0.20
Tony Parker (SAS) 68 29.5 77.0 5234 66.7 6.2 1.7 3.4 16.7 0.22 0.25
Deron Williams (BKN) 64 32.3 79.3 5073 67.2 6.2 0.8 1.3 14.3 0.18 0.21
Jeff Teague (ATL) 78 32.4 79.3 6183 72.1 6.2 0.7 1.3 16.5 0.21 0.23
Jameer Nelson (ORL) 68 32.2 73.4 4994 60.0 6.0 0.8 1.8 12.1 0.16 0.20
Eric Bledsoe (PHX) 43 33.0 72.2 3104 61.6 6.0 1.0 1.5 17.7 0.25 0.29
Victor Oladipo (ORL) 80 31.2 67.7 5413 55.4 5.7 0.8 0.9 13.8 0.20 0.25
Greivis Vasquez (SAC) 17 26.7 67.5 1148 56.3 5.5 0.4 2.0 10.0 0.15 0.18
Raymond Felton (NYK) 65 31.2 71.6 4656 57.0 5.5 0.5 0.7 9.7 0.14 0.17
George Hill (IND) 76 32.2 70.6 5369 58.4 5.3 0.8 1.2 10.3 0.15 0.18
Steve Blake (LAL) 27 33.2 76.6 2067 65.6 5.3 0.8 1.2 9.5 0.12 0.14
Kirk Hinrich (CHI) 73 29.1 68.3 4985 61.3 5.3 0.5 0.5 9.1 0.13 0.15
Kendall Marshall (LAL) 54 29.1 76.1 4110 62.5 5.1 0.3 0.8 8.0 0.10 0.13
LeBron James (MIA) 77 38.0 77.7 5984 63.8 5.1 3.5 3.7 27.1 0.35 0.43
James Harden (HOU) 73 38.3 73.2 5347 62.0 4.9 1.2 1.5 25.4 0.35 0.41
Jose Calderon (DAL) 81 30.6 76.1 6162 58.9 4.8 0.2 0.8 11.4 0.15 0.19
Ramon Sessions (MIL) 28 32.7 70.2 1966 60.8 4.8 1.7 2.8 15.8 0.23 0.26
Reggie Jackson (OKC) 80 28.7 60.4 4829 50.2 4.8 0.7 1.1 13.1 0.22 0.26
Greivis Vasquez (TOTAL) 78 22.7 58.5 4566 50.3 4.7 0.5 1.0 9.6 0.16 0.19
Monta Ellis (DAL) 82 37.0 71.4 5852 60.0 4.6 0.6 1.6 19.0 0.27 0.32
Brian Roberts (NOP) 72 23.3 51.9 3739 45.2 4.5 0.3 1.5 9.4 0.18 0.21
Steve Blake (TOTAL) 55 27.4 58.8 3234 50.4 4.5 0.5 0.7 6.9 0.12 0.14
Greivis Vasquez (TOR) 61 21.6 56.0 3418 48.7 4.5 0.5 0.7 9.5 0.17 0.20
Mario Chalmers (MIA) 73 30.0 66.8 4879 51.6 4.4 0.7 0.9 9.8 0.15 0.19
Aaron Brooks (DEN) 29 29.2 52.3 1516 44.2 4.3 0.7 0.3 11.9 0.23 0.27
Mo Williams (POR) 74 24.9 55.3 4091 46.5 4.3 0.2 0.6 9.7 0.18 0.21
Jordan Farmar (LAL)

http://i.gyazo.com/20f36f0357ff91ffe6a4c9d73679b6da.png

http://i.gyazo.com/f82397d941d1afce2646af7e55f4c3b8.png
http://i.gyazo.com/7566770e714b616e56a26e2ed73c31b4.png

http://i.gyazo.com/78843ecd54d66cf4401f35e2302e7bf4.png

http://i.gyazo.com/5288f73729c0880e8037abbaf50c007a.png




Comprende?

[Kblaze8855]

Yea he does a lot of copy/paste. Im not sure if he knows it...but I can see deleted posts. He leaves a dozen in every topic hes in just copy/pasting. He replied to me a moment ago...then copy/pasted it into a new response to you...and deleted the one to me.

Hes not actually forming new thoughts.

That is one thing kinda...spammish.

[3ball]

That's the thing, I don't know if his trolling takes him that much time. He's been copy-pasting posts for weeks upon weeks now. In that Lebron vs MJ 3-pt thread I counted something like 15 times he posted the exact same paragraph...same exact thing happened in the vertical thread with another giant post.

He just modifies huge posts that are already out there, and spams them on any Lebron thread he can find. And the few times he breaks character and cusses someone out, resorts to the typical 6/6>2/5 stuff, it's still not frequent enough to be considered blatant trolling. The dude has found the perfect balance between unbannable retardery and obvious trolling.
lol you guys are a joke.

prometheus and jlip accosted me about how lebron was NOT a ball-dominator, and proceeded to produce data showing he was biggest ball-dominator in the league (of non-PG's)!!!

but somehow you want to hate on me.... when i was right and now they are nowhere to be seen on the forums.... literally cowards anytime i call them out, scared to admit they were dead wrong.

then look at the Jordan vertical thread - proof that Jordan has a 46+ inch vertical - RIGHT AGAIN IDIOTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

just imagine if i had started posting in this forum before the Finals this year..... oooooooohhhweeeeee, y'all would hate a *****

but i'm the ridiculous one?
.

[SugarHill]

F*cked up part is, I know who 3ball's "main" is. Guy gives RG a run for his money, just on pure insanity.

Still, I'm not sure if he's actually a Bryant or a Jordan stan. Maybe a hybrid. :eek:

You've said this before but you never say who it is. Stop teasing. :coleman:

[SugarHill]

lol you guys are a joke.

prometheus and jlip accosted me about how lebron was not a ball-dominator, and proceeded to produce data showing he was biggest ball-dominator in the league (of non-PG's)!!!

but somehow I'm ridiculous.... when i was right and now they are nowhere to be seen on the forums.... literally cowards anytime i call them out, scared to admit they were dead wrong.

then look at the Jordan vertical thread - proof that Jordan has a 46+ inch vertical - RIGHT AGAIN IDIOTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

just imagine if i had started posting in this forum before the Finals this year..... oooooooohhhweeeeee, y'all would hate a *****

but i'm the ridiculous one?

My dude is on his Hit Em Up tip :roll:

[Real Men Wear Green]

"Off ball passer." (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10618750#post10618750)

I kind of regret that topic closing, only because I'd really like to know what that means.

[Milbuck]

lol you guys are a joke.

prometheus and jlip accosted me about how lebron was NOT a ball-dominator, and proceeded to produce data showing he was biggest ball-dominator in the league (of non-PG's)!!!

but somehow you want to hate on me.... when i was right and now they are nowhere to be seen on the forums.... literally cowards anytime i call them out, scared to admit they were dead wrong.

then look at the Jordan vertical thread - proof that Jordan has a 46+ inch vertical - RIGHT AGAIN IDIOTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

just imagine if i had started posting in this forum before the Finals this year..... oooooooohhhweeeeee, y'all would hate a *****

but i'm the ridiculous one?
.
ok

[mehyaM24]

My dude is on his Hit Em Up tip :roll:

there are users who pm'd me asking who his account is - but i dont know.

@kuniva who's main is he?

[SugarHill]

there are users who pm'd me asking who his account is - but i dont know.

@kuniva who's main is he?

After seeing the deleting posts and copying it again on a new page or after people post thing from another dude so I had an idea of who it is, but I want to believe he's not that crazy :oldlol:

[3ball]

Hey OP

Comprende?
Excluding point guards, Lebron is the biggest ball-dominator in the league... deal with it.

Are you really going to sit there and act like it matters whether he is one of 2 non-point guards in the top 50 or whether he was one of 4?

So you counter my point by saying "it wasn't 2 out of 50, it was 4".... THAT MEANS YOU HAVE NO ARGUMENT

[ArbitraryWater]

Excluding point guards, Lebron is the biggest ball-dominator in the league... deal with it.

Are you really going to sit there and act like it matters whether he is one of 2 non-point guards in the top 50 or whether he was one of 4?

You make my point with this garbage - THAT's how you counter my point - to say "it wasn't 2 out of 50, it was 4".... THAT MEANS YOU HAVE NO ARGUMENT

Sooo you're just lying and he really isn't the biggest non PG ball dominator, but you don't care and still say he is AND accuse the OTHERS of making garbage?

[ArbitraryWater]

"Off ball passer." (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10618750#post10618750)

I kind of regret that topic closing, only because I'd really like to know what that means.

That was classic... Jordan = GOAT Off-Ball Passer... Dude made alot of those Off-Ball Passes. Really became his trademark.

[3ball]

Sooo you're just lying and he really isn't the biggest non PG ball dominator, but you don't care and still say he is AND accuse the OTHERS of making garbage?
Excluding point guards, Lebron is the biggest ball-dominator in the league - yes, the SportsVu data confirms this.

And we know Lebron dominates the ball like a point guard, because he and Harden are the only non-point guards on the top 50 ball-domination list.

Again, if your counter to my argument is to say "it wasn't 2 out of 50, it was 4"... then you lose...
.

[Kblaze8855]

When the basis of your argument is...someone is the most ball dominant non point in the league...and you post a list showing he isnt...

And call your original statement a fact...

It opens up concerns that you might literally be out of your mind....

[ArbitraryWater]

John Wall (WAS) 81 36.6 96.8 7840 84.3 8.0 0.3 0.5 19.3 0.20 0.23
Rajon Rondo (BOS) 30 33.6 95.7 2872 78.2 7.8 1.6 2.8 11.7 0.12 0.15
Isaiah Thomas (SAC) 71 34.9 86.1 6112 74.3 7.8 0.7 2.0 20.4 0.24 0.27
Kemba Walker (CHA) 72 36.0 101.8 7333 90.0 7.7 0.6 1.5 17.7 0.17 0.20
Mike Conley (MEM) 73 33.7 87.9 6414 78.0 7.4 0.9 2.0 17.2 0.20 0.22
Chris Paul (LAC) 62 35.3 97.2 6027 82.5 7.3 1.0 2.7 19.1 0.20 0.23
Brandon Jennings (DET) 80 34.4 82.9 6633 72.7 7.1 0.5 0.8 15.5 0.19 0.21
Damian Lillard (POR) 82 36.0 85.3 6998 70.8 7.1 0.6 1.1 20.7 0.24 0.29
Stephen Curry (GSW) 77 36.7 80.8 6223 70.9 6.9 0.9 1.6 23.9 0.30 0.34
Ty Lawson (DEN) 62 36.1 81.3 5043 70.7 6.9 0.6 0.9 17.6 0.22 0.25
D.J. Augustin (CHI) 61 30.5 79.2 4833 72.1 6.9 0.6 0.9 14.9 0.19 0.21
Kyle Lowry (TOR) 78 36.4 91.7 7156 79.3 6.9 1.1 0.7 18.0 0.20 0.23
Ricky Rubio (MIN) 82 32.4 87.3 7157 70.3 6.9 1.1 0.7 9.5 0.11 0.14
Derrick Rose (CHI) 10 30.9 85.9 859 75.9 6.7 1.2 1.4 15.9 0.19 0.21
Jrue Holiday (NOP) 34 33.8 82.4 2802 65.5 6.6 0.9 1.4 14.3 0.17 0.22
Russell Westbrook (OKC) 46 31.0 75.9 3492 66.6 6.5 1.2 0.9 21.8 0.29 0.33
Michael Carter-Williams (PHI) 70 34.6 89.3 6251 74.0 6.5 1.8 1.7 16.7 0.19 0.23
Goran Dragic (PHX) 76 35.4 78.7 5984 69.7 6.4 1.1 2.1 20.3 0.26 0.29
Jordan Crawford (BOS) 39 31.0 76.4 2981 65.3 6.4 0.4 1.0 13.7 0.18 0.21
Brandon Knight (MIL) 72 33.5 84.5 6085 71.9 6.3 0.8 2.1 17.9 0.21 0.25
Trey Burke (UTA) 70 32.4 81.6 5713 70.4 6.2 0.3 1.6 12.8 0.16 0.18
Kyrie Irving (CLE) 71 35.3 82.5 5857 72.8 6.2 1.1 1.4 20.8 0.25 0.29
D.J. Augustin (TOTAL) 70 27.6 71.2 4985 64.9 6.2 0.6 0.8 13.3 0.19 0.20
Tony Parker (SAS) 68 29.5 77.0 5234 66.7 6.2 1.7 3.4 16.7 0.22 0.25
Deron Williams (BKN) 64 32.3 79.3 5073 67.2 6.2 0.8 1.3 14.3 0.18 0.21
Jeff Teague (ATL) 78 32.4 79.3 6183 72.1 6.2 0.7 1.3 16.5 0.21 0.23
Jameer Nelson (ORL) 68 32.2 73.4 4994 60.0 6.0 0.8 1.8 12.1 0.16 0.20
Eric Bledsoe (PHX) 43 33.0 72.2 3104 61.6 6.0 1.0 1.5 17.7 0.25 0.29
Victor Oladipo (ORL) 80 31.2 67.7 5413 55.4 5.7 0.8 0.9 13.8 0.20 0.25
Greivis Vasquez (SAC) 17 26.7 67.5 1148 56.3 5.5 0.4 2.0 10.0 0.15 0.18
Raymond Felton (NYK) 65 31.2 71.6 4656 57.0 5.5 0.5 0.7 9.7 0.14 0.17
George Hill (IND) 76 32.2 70.6 5369 58.4 5.3 0.8 1.2 10.3 0.15 0.18
Steve Blake (LAL) 27 33.2 76.6 2067 65.6 5.3 0.8 1.2 9.5 0.12 0.14
Kirk Hinrich (CHI) 73 29.1 68.3 4985 61.3 5.3 0.5 0.5 9.1 0.13 0.15
Kendall Marshall (LAL) 54 29.1 76.1 4110 62.5 5.1 0.3 0.8 8.0 0.10 0.13
LeBron James (MIA) 77 38.0 77.7 5984 63.8 5.1 3.5 3.7 27.1 0.35 0.43
James Harden (HOU) 73 38.3 73.2 5347 62.0 4.9 1.2 1.5 25.4 0.35 0.41
Jose Calderon (DAL) 81 30.6 76.1 6162 58.9 4.8 0.2 0.8 11.4 0.15 0.19
Ramon Sessions (MIL) 28 32.7 70.2 1966 60.8 4.8 1.7 2.8 15.8 0.23 0.26
Reggie Jackson (OKC) 80 28.7 60.4 4829 50.2 4.8 0.7 1.1 13.1 0.22 0.26
Greivis Vasquez (TOTAL) 78 22.7 58.5 4566 50.3 4.7 0.5 1.0 9.6 0.16 0.19
Monta Ellis (DAL) 82 37.0 71.4 5852 60.0 4.6 0.6 1.6 19.0 0.27 0.32
Brian Roberts (NOP) 72 23.3 51.9 3739 45.2 4.5 0.3 1.5 9.4 0.18 0.21
Steve Blake (TOTAL) 55 27.4 58.8 3234 50.4 4.5 0.5 0.7 6.9 0.12 0.14
Greivis Vasquez (TOR) 61 21.6 56.0 3418 48.7 4.5 0.5 0.7 9.5 0.17 0.20
Mario Chalmers (MIA) 73 30.0 66.8 4879 51.6 4.4 0.7 0.9 9.8 0.15 0.19
Aaron Brooks (DEN) 29 29.2 52.3 1516 44.2 4.3 0.7 0.3 11.9 0.23 0.27
Mo Williams (POR) 74 24.9 55.3 4091 46.5 4.3 0.2 0.6 9.7 0.18 0.21
Jordan Farmar (LAL)

I don't know what ****ing numbers I'm looking at here, but Jordan Crawford seems to be above LeBron if my eyes don't fool me...

And LeBron has always played a Point Forward role.

[3ball]

When the basis of your argument is...someone is the most ball dominant non point in the league...and you post a list showing he isnt...

And call your original statement a fact...

It opens up concerns that you might literally be out of your mind....
Lebron is the biggest ball dominator excluding point guards - which non-point guard was ahead of him on the list?

and lebron dominates the ball as much as many point guards too - he's one of two non-point guards on the top 50 ball-domination list... if you want to say one of four, fine, go ahead.

[ArbitraryWater]

Lebron is the biggest ball dominator excluding point guards - which non-point guard was ahead of him on the list?

and lebron dominates the ball as much as many point guards too - he's one of two non-point guards on the top 50 ball-domination list... if you want to say one of four, fine, go ahead.

Why would you say two? Why not four?

[3ball]

I don't know what ****ing numbers I'm looking at here, but Jordan Crawford seems to be above LeBron if my eyes don't fool me...

And LeBron has always played a Point Forward role.
Jordan Crawford plays point guard.

And again, if your argument is that "Lebron wasn't THE most ball-dominant out of non-point guards, he was the 2nd most ball-dominant".... than you lose.... like, if that's the only thing you disagree with and want to argue about, i win the argument easily.

[ArbitraryWater]

Jordan Crawford plays point guard.

And again, if your argument is that "Lebron wasn't THE most ball-dominant out of non-point guards, he was the 2nd most ball-dominant".... than you lose.... like, if that's the only thing you disagree with and want to argue about, i win the argument easily.

LeBron James plays point guard.

[Kblaze8855]

Jordan Crawford is a scorer who can handle the ball. Hes less of a point than Lebron. Both are masters of the head scratchingly long top of the key faceup dribble. But Lebron is more likely to make a play for someone else in the process.

[3ball]

Given his ball dominance, Lebron should get more assists... Durant averaged 5.5. assists to Lebron's 6.3 (14% less), but had 27.5% less time with the ball... :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

LeBron James plays point guard.
Agreed... that's what i've been saying the whole time...

and so his 6.3 assists is vastly overrated compared to Jordan.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Given his ball dominance, Lebron should get more assists... Durant averaged 5.5. assists to Lebron's 6.3 (14% less), but had 27.5% less time with the ball... :confusedshrug:
He went to the Finals 4 times in a row. Who ****ing cares?

[ArbitraryWater]

http://i.gyazo.com/ab488c1e98795d99c2016db76f174e1a.png


Starting in the 2013-2014 season, SportsVu cameras were installed in every NBA arena to track on-court player movements.

ISH poster jlip tracked down the data, which showed us that Lebron was 37th in the league (http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingTouches.html?pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=50&sortField=TOP&sortOrder=DES) in time of possession with the ball - this is the highest of any non-point guard, and he was the only non-point guard in the top 50, other than fellow ball-dominator (and suboptimal style-user) James Harden.


Who cares?

HE'S THE ONLY NON-POINT GUARD IN THE TOP 50

At 37th, there were 13 point guards BELOW him.

imagine how he would rank in his cleveland days when he didn't play off-ball at all.


C'mon fellas.. don't play dumb.

SportsVu shows that Lebron is the most ball-dominant non-point guard in the game today.

And he actually played off-ball more this last year than he ever has, and he was STILL the most ball-dominant non-point guard.

There is a strong chance that Lebron is the most ball-dominant non-point guard EVER.. Personally, I think he is.

















https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/1464040_641384022578586_2076415286_n.jpg

[3ball]

He went to the Finals 4 times in a row. Who ****ing cares?
2/4 is not jordan

[3ball]

LeBron James plays point guard.



that's why his 6.3 assist-average is overrated compared to Jordan.

[ArbitraryWater]

http://i.gyazo.com/ab488c1e98795d99c2016db76f174e1a.png


Starting in the 2013-2014 season, SportsVu cameras were installed in every NBA arena to track on-court player movements.

ISH poster jlip tracked down the data, which showed us that Lebron was 37th in the league (http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingTouches.html?pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=50&sortField=TOP&sortOrder=DES) in time of possession with the ball - this is the highest of any non-point guard, and he was the only non-point guard in the top 50, other than fellow ball-dominator (and suboptimal style-user) James Harden.


Who cares?

HE'S THE ONLY NON-POINT GUARD IN THE TOP 50

At 37th, there were 13 point guards BELOW him.

imagine how he would rank in his cleveland days when he didn't play off-ball at all.


C'mon fellas.. don't play dumb.

SportsVu shows that Lebron is the most ball-dominant non-point guard in the game today.

And he actually played off-ball more this last year than he ever has, and he was STILL the most ball-dominant non-point guard.

There is a strong chance that Lebron is the most ball-dominant non-point guard EVER.. Personally, I think he is.






http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Mddk7CwwhbY/Um9uqiX-OZI/AAAAAAAAOh0/ew3DCcen_vU/s1600/Doc-Rivers.gif

[Brizzly]

Isn't this common sense?...that Lebron basically plays PG. Shut up, 3ball.

No but it is common knowledge

[tpols]

Hey OP



http://i.gyazo.com/20f36f0357ff91ffe6a4c9d73679b6da.png

http://i.gyazo.com/f82397d941d1afce2646af7e55f4c3b8.png
http://i.gyazo.com/7566770e714b616e56a26e2ed73c31b4.png

http://i.gyazo.com/78843ecd54d66cf4401f35e2302e7bf4.png

http://i.gyazo.com/5288f73729c0880e8037abbaf50c007a.png




Comprende?

Jordan Crawford and James Harden are two of the worst offenders when it comes to dribbling the clock out..

Crawford with his trying to go and 1 mix tape on people all day and harden thinking hes gods gift to basketball and allowed to dribble for 15 seconds before running into the paint and flailing(or putting up an ugly mid range pull up)

I dont see how they really help your case here.

[Kblaze8855]

So I go outside to have a drink with a friend who just got off work...phone buzzes...new email.

Its this dude being reported again(For the record...not by anyone involved in this conversation).

Reading your reported posts is like....12% of my down time.

Do better....

I cant get my ****ing Cointreau out before someone is reporting a new batch of your trolling....

[3ball]

LeBron James plays point guard.





Isn't this common sense?...that Lebron basically plays PG. Shut up, 3ball.





No but it is common knowledge


indeed, it's totally common knowledge that lebron plays point guard.

that's why lebron's 6.3 assist average is overrated compared to off-ball players like Bird and Jordan, Joakim Noah or prime Garnett even, who averaged the same assists but DIDN'T play point guard.

for a point guard, 6.3 assists is about average..... nothing compared to when Jordan played point-guard.

[SugarHill]

So I go outside to have a drink with a friend who just got off work...phone buzzes...new email.

Its this dude being reported again(For the record...not by anyone involved in this conversation).

Reading your reported posts is like....12% of my down time.

Do better....

I cant get my ****ing Cointreau out before someone is reporting a new batch of your trolling....
3ball is the new GOAT

[ArbitraryWater]

Jordan Crawford and James Harden are two of the worst offenders when it comes to dribbling the clock out..

Crawford with his trying to go and 1 mix tape on people all day and harden thinking hes gods gift to basketball and allowed to dribble for 15 seconds before running into the paint and flailing(or putting up an ugly mid range pull up)

I dont see how they really help your case here.

Totally irrelevant... This whole discussion is ENTIRELY based on numbers, and we have 4 other non-PG's in the top 50... That's all this is.

[SugarHill]

it's totally common knowledge that lebron plays point guard.

that's why lebron's 6.3 assist average is overrated compared to off-ball players like Bird and Jordan, Joakim Noah or prime Garnett even, who averaged the same assists but DIDN'T play point guard.

Are you suggesting Noah is a better passer than LeBron? :lol

[K Xerxes]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

the SportsVu data is about as substantive as you can get... again, thanks jlip.

And we actually do have data for Jordan as a primary ballhandler - he was put at point guard for the last 24 games of the 1989 season (http://www.complex.com/sports/2014/01/michael-jordan-point-guard-in-1989-posted-triple-double-10-of-11-games), and he averaged 30.4 points, 9.2 rebounds, and 10.9 assists (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1989/#322-345-sum:pgl_basic), with a stretch of 10 triple-doubles in 11 games.

Jordan's stretch as a primary ballhandler was clearly far better than Lebron has done in his entire career dominating the ball, and the numbers themselves are so ridiculous that they can only be viewed as a good indication of Jordan's own capability as the primary ballhandler... it's impossible to rack up those kind of numbers by chance.

I'm a Jordan fan... but you're nuts. Not sure if this is a gimmick designed to make Jordan stans look bad, or you're just nuts...

Your argument is invalid because you're using two sets of entirely different data to compare the same criteria. While I'm sure most people who saw both would agree Jordan held the ball less than LeBron over their careers (so far), it's a clear fallacy to compare empirical data (LeBron's time on the ball) with an assumption (Jordan = off ball player), and conclude that Jordan spends so much time less on the ball that his assist stats are automatically more impressive despite being inferior. You need to present the same data for Jordan to make a valid comparison. Conversely, how is it not impressive for LeBron to finish 37th on time on the ball in the league, yet 10th in APG?

Secondly, you're taking a high assist stretch from Jordan's career - where it is known that he diverted more of his attention on accumulating stats - and comparing that to LeBron's whole career. Not a valid comparison either. In fact in 2009, when LeBron played more PG, he averaged almost 9apg over an entire season.

Finally, using assist numbers to compare passers isn't sound either. There is some correlation with great passers (usually PGs) and high assist numbers, but assists depend on your style of player. On another player making the shot, whether it's a layup or a turnaround contested three. It doesn't capture great passes that don't lead to buckets directly, or hockey assists. Etc etc.

Would you say Stephon Marbury is a great passer - he averaged around 8-9 assists for a number of years?

Was Russell Westbrook a better passer earlier on in his career when he averaged 8apg for two straight seasons, before it dropping down to 5-7?

Passing is something you judge with your eyes. And most avid - yet somewhat unbiased - basketball fans would tell you that LeBron is a better passer than Jordan. Not just that, LeBron is one of the greatest passers of all time, certainly among non-PGs. Certainly not to imply Jordan himself wasn't a great passer for his position, but this is something LeBron is better at.

[Sarcastic]

Basically what 3ball has done inadvertently is prove the concept of "Lebron Ball". He dominates the time of possession, and has a high usage rate.

[tpols]

Totally irrelevant... This whole discussion is ENTIRELY based on numbers, and we have 4 other non-PG's in the top 50... That's all this is.

I think this 3ball guy just took it too far with that proclamation..

Overall he DID show that Lebron, James Harden, and Crawford are the only non- pgs to dominate the ball, like a PG. And its not like those guys arent known for being extreme ballstoppers at their positions.. you bringing them up doesnt take away from the fact that lebron is a ballstopper, it actually only reinforces it.

overall his point that lebron james is abnormally ball dominanat for a small forward is pretty much true.. everyone knew it already though.. you ve got guys like pauk trying to skew numbers by bringing up usage when he knows damn well that has nothing to do with ball dominanace, but whatever. Anybody thats ever watched lebron james play knows how much he dribbles.

[ArbitraryWater]

I think this 3ball guy just took it too far with that proclamation..

Overall he DID show that Lebron, James Harden, and Crawford are the only non- pgs to dominate the ball, like a PG. And its not like those guys arent known for being extreme ballstoppers at their positions.. you bringing them up doesnt take away from the fact that lebron is a ballstopper, it actually only reinforces it.

overall his point that lebron james is abnormally ball dominanat for a small forward is pretty much true.. everyone knew it already though.. you ve got guys like pauk trying to skew numbers by bringing up usage when he knows damn well that has nothing to do with ball dominanace, but whatever. Anybody thats ever watched lebron james play knows how much he dribbles.

You People act like LeBron's overhandling of the ball is like a Detriment to the Team or something :wtf:

Lol at calling LeBron a ballstopper when.... I'm damn sure you think Kobe isn't one :oldlol:

LeBron's more productive. You want the ball in your best player's hands.

[tpols]

You People act like LeBron's overhandling of the ball is like a Detriment to the Team or something :wtf:

Lol at calling LeBron a ballstopper when.... I'm damn sure you think Kobe isn't one :oldlol:

LeBron's more productive. You want the ball in your best player's hands.

Its not a detriment to the team.. but it definitely does lead to inflated stats, indecisiveness at times, and less production out of star teammates. Sure lebron ball can win you a championship(hes that good), but it crushes teammate confidence over time which is why dude is jumping from new cast to new cast as he slowly wears them out with his playstyle.

[Kblaze8855]

Nothing inflates stats except a team/league with a lot of extra posessions.

You just do what you do. A playmaker making plays...isnt inflating anything. Its doing his job.

And teammate confidence?

Thats an issue that will vary person to person.

Can you imagine Kobe, Vernon Maxwell, John Starks, Dennis rodman, Jordan, Nate Robinson, Shaq, or Damon Jones having their confidence crushed by the presense of a great player reducing their shots/looks a bit?

Role players or stars the kind of person to become mentally shaken by such a thing id probably soft to begin with.

Grown men should take more responsibility for their performances.

[ArbitraryWater]

tpols trying to convince himself of Kobe > LeBron... He knows realistically that just isn't true, so he's creating myths for himself.

[Warfan]

Some people really exaggerate 'LeBron ball' and how it negatively effects teammates...

[tpols]

Nothing inflates stats except a team/league with a lot of extra posessions.

You just do what you do. A playmaker making plays...isnt inflating anything. Its doing his job.

And teammate confidence?

Thats an issue that will vary person to person.

Can you imagine Kobe, Vernon Maxwell, John Starks, Dennis rodman, Jordan, Nate Robinson, Shaq, or Damon Jones having their confidence crushed by the presense of a great player reducing their shots/looks a bit?

Role players or stars the kind of person to become mentally shaken by such a thing id probably soft to begin with.

Grown men should take more responsibility for their performances.

Some of those guys Yes. The role player/tough guys you listed no.. but the shaq, jordan, kobe would for sure demand the ball and get pissy if lebron was just dribbling the clock out on majority of plays before shooting or passing. Its not really about softness, more about egos.. if a player feels there just as capable or more capable of the smaller role theyre given they may speak out on it(as wade and bosh both publicly have.. and those guys are relatively unselfish compared to some of the guys you listed there).

[ArbitraryWater]

Some people really exaggerate 'LeBron ball' and how it negatively effects teammates...


As you can see, the "0 rings" "LeBrick" "Choker" is getting old and doesn't hold up anymore, so new stuff is being thrown around..

[Kblaze8855]

Shaq, Jordan, and Kobe wouldnt be as marginalized as the people Lebron has played with. When Wade was the real Wade...he did his thing. When hes a 13/5 guy in the playoffs it isnt because Lebron isnt willing to let him do the 25 he did in 2011. Its because hes.....older, hurt, and worse.

The only people who will stand in a corner and not get involved while healthy and in their primes....are the kinds of people you dont want in a position of leadership to begin with.

[TheMarkMadsen]

What year did wade average 13ppg in the playoffs?

[ArbitraryWater]

What year did wade average 13ppg in the playoffs?

That happened exclusively in your mind, bro

[TheMarkMadsen]

That happened exclusively in your mind, bro

the post above mine stated wade averaged 13 ppg in the playoffs which struck me as odd

Checking bball reference and I see that they were exaggerating

[Warfan]

the post above mine stated wade averaged 13 ppg in the playoffs which struck me as odd

He averaged something like 16/5 in the 13' playoffs, im guessing he averaged close to 13ppg through the first 3 rounds. But you know, bron played well enough and the east was weak enough that they could still get to the finals, where wade played well.

[tpols]

Shaq, Jordan, and Kobe wouldnt be as marginalized as the people Lebron has played with. When Wade was the real Wade...he did his thing. When hes a 13/5 guy in the playoffs it isnt because Lebron isnt willing to let him do the 25 he did in 2011. Its because hes.....older, hurt, and worse.

The only people who will stand in a corner and not get involved while healthy and in their primes....are the kinds of people you dont want in a position of leadership to begin with.

Really?

Because if I remember correctly the heat had severe chemistry problems in the only year wade was in his prime, and they imploded on the big stage because neither knew what to do/there were toes being stepped on/confusion about why wade could take over in the finals after lebron being the one to take over in the ecf.

Are we really going to act like that didnt happen ?


The Heat won once the shooters took priority.. miller, ray allen, battier, bosh becoming a 3 pt shooter when he never was one before.. thats when they clicked.. not when all of the big 3 were in their primes.

[3ball]

it's a clear fallacy to compare empirical data (LeBron's time on the ball) with an assumption (Jordan = off ball player), and conclude that Jordan spends so much time less on the ball that his assist stats are automatically more impressive despite being inferior. You need to present the same data for Jordan to make a valid comparison.


To answer your concern here, keep in mind that in my last post, I quoted three other posters who said Lebron plays point guard - and the SportsVu data shows that Lebron dominates the ball as much as point guards.

But the only time Jordan played point guard was that 24-game stretch at the end of the 1989, when his assist numbers almost doubled - the jump in his assist numbers was not a coincidence... It happened because Collins put him at point guard.

What more data do you need?.... Jordan's numbers were SO ridiculous during that stretch that they can't be a result of chance or anything other than a major change in his ballhandling duties.





Conversely, how is it not impressive for LeBron to finish 37th on time on the ball in the league, yet 10th in APG?


Lebron was 16th in the league in assists, not 10th... and 6.3 assists is pretty average for a point guard... you should stop overrating his assist stats considering he dominates the ball so much - he's nowhere NEAR being one of the best-passing ball dominators along the likes of Nash, Magic, CP3, etc.





In fact in 2009, when LeBron played more PG, he averaged almost 9apg over an entire season.


For their entire careers in the playoffs, Lebron averages 6.4 assists to Jordan's 5.7, so no need for me to cherry-pick.

Also, Jordan averaged 8 assists per game in 1989 but he only played point-guard the last 24 games of the year (11 assists per game for that stretch) - if he had played point guard the entire year like Lebron does, he would have averaged 9+ assists easily - it's simple math.





Passing is something you judge with your eyes. And most avid - yet somewhat unbiased - basketball fans would tell you that LeBron is a better passer than Jordan. Not just that, LeBron is one of the greatest passers of all time, certainly among non-PGs. Certainly not to imply Jordan himself wasn't a great passer for his position, but this is something LeBron is better at.


Westbrook, marbury and iverson are all good passers, but the shooting inefficiency, attitude, and bad shot selection of those players casts a negative shadow on their assists.

Also, you say the eye test works for passing, but if the player in question doesn't get his assists by dribbling out top and playing a point-guard, ball-dominant style, then he isn't a great passer to you.

And even when Jordan did the flashy ball-dominance thing that you like - when Collins moved him to point guard for the last 24 games of the 1989 season (http://www.complex.com/sports/2014/01/michael-jordan-point-guard-in-1989-posted-triple-double-10-of-11-games), and he put up far better numbers than Lebron ever has (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1989/#322-345-sum:pgl_basic), including a stretch of 10 triple-doubles in 11 games, you just ignore it as if it meant nothing that Jordan's assist average literally doubled the moment Collins moved him to point guard.

How about this for an eye test - Has Lebron ever gotten 10 triple-doubles in 11 games?... Has he ever gotten a triple-double in 21 minutes?.... Has he ever averaged 11 assists in the Finals???.... Does he make quick decisions with his passing??... No.. no... no.. and no to all these eye-tests.
.

[ILLsmak]

Basically what 3ball has done inadvertently is prove the concept of "Lebron Ball". He dominates the time of possession, and has a high usage rate.

lol nah not really he's trolled people though.

He's doing an A+ job at that.

-Smak

[3ball]

.
Facts supporting Lebron's Passing Being Overrated Compared to Jordan:




1) Lebron dominates the ball as much as point guards and more than any non-point guard.

2) Despite his gaudy perception as an all-time passer, he gets an average number of assists for a ball-dominator - only 6.3 - literally half of what the REAL best-passing ball-dominators got (i.e. Magic, Nash, etc), and the same as off-ball players Jordan and Bird.




(Fact Check: 2 for 2 with facts so far in this post)




3) Lebron's teammates routinely underperformed alongside him, while Jordan's did not.

4) The Heat's best lineups did not contain Wade and Lebron on the same floor together.




(Fact Check: 4 for 4)




5) Bosh was 24/12 franchise player in Toronto, but was reduced to 16/6 floor-spreader with Lebron... :eek:

6) Bosh and Chalmers say they will play much better this next season without him



(6 for 6)

[Kblaze8855]

Really?

Because if I remember correctly the heat had severe chemistry problems in the only year wade was in his prime, and they imploded on the big stage because neither knew what to do/there were toes being stepped on/confusion about why wade could take over in the finals after lebron being the one to take over in the ecf.

Are we really going to act like that didnt happen ?


The Heat won once the shooters took priority.. miller, ray allen, battier, bosh becoming a 3 pt shooter when he never was one before.. thats when they clicked.. not when all of the big 3 were in their primes.

First of all....the Heat in 2011 not only made the finals....beating a 62 win Bulls team on the way...they were literally...a single missed Wade 3 from having won the first 3 games of the finals. Lets not act like they were blown off the court and the idea that they could win was proven absurd.

That said....

The Heat won when they had a real team develop not 3 stars and castoffs. I made a topic saying they were not that good before 2011 and people acted like I was out of my mind.

Mike Bibby started 20 games in the playoffs. He shot 28%...and had been a bad defender for 10 years. Big Z played the last games of his career. They had dudes who had no business on the floor....starting.

The 2012-2014 Heat simply had more talent outside the big 3. not big names. But players who play their role well. 2011 wasnt that great a team.

But it clearly could work.

There is no reason the Heat couldnt win in 12 and 13 with a better version of Wade. Hell he took more shots a game in the 2012 playoffs than in 2011.

Not like he melted into nothing.

That took another year.

[Kblaze8855]

How about this for an eye test - Has Lebron ever gotten 10 triple-doubles in 11 games?... Has he ever gotten a triple-double in 21 minutes?.... Has he ever averaged 11 assists in the Finals???

Do you know what the term "eye test" means?

[SugarHill]

Do you know what the term "eye test" means?
:roll:

[3ball]

lol nah not really he's trolled people though.

He's doing an A+ job at that.

-Smak


they can't be trolls if they are facts... :confusedshrug:... how are these inaccurate?


1) Lebron dominates the ball as much as point guards and more than any other non-point guard.


2) Lebron gets an average number of assists for a point guard (6.3) - he's nowhere near being one of the better-passing ball-dominators, like say, Nash, Magic, CP3 and the like.


3) Lebron's passing is overrated when compared to off-ball players Bird and Jordan, since they average about the same assists without dominating the ball.


4) Given how much he dominates the ball and plays point guard, Lebron underachieves with his assist totals compared to other wings - even Durant gets only 14% less assists (5.5 to 6.3), but has 27.5% less time with the ball.
.

[sdot_thadon]

they can't be trolls if they are facts... :confusedshrug:... how are these inaccurate?


1) Lebron dominates the ball as much as point guards and more than any other non-point guard.


2) Lebron gets an average number of assists for a point guard (6.3) - he's nowhere near being one of the better-passing ball-dominators, like say, Nash, Magic, CP3 and the like.


3) Lebron's passing is overrated when compared to off-ball players Bird and Jordan, since they average about the same assists without dominating the ball.


4) Given how much he dominates the ball and plays point guard, Lebron underachieves with his assist totals compared to other wings - even Durant gets only 14% less assists (5.5 to 6.3), but has 27.5% less time with the ball.
.
Umm maybe because all your "facts" have been proven shaky half truths or lies outright. Just sayin...
Might fare better if you actually had data on Jordan's ball dominance to compare instead of winging it like we should all agree.

[ralph_i_el]

IF WE IGNORE 3ball HE'LL STOP.
I'm one of the worst offenders, but I've realized he's just a hungry hungry troll and were giving him all the delicious attention he can handle. He's just going to keep repeating the same stuff over and over. There is nothing to gain from arguing with him.

[3ball]

IF WE IGNORE 3ball HE'LL STOP.
I'm one of the worst offenders, but I've realized he's just a hungry hungry troll and were giving him all the delicious attention he can handle. He's just going to keep repeating the same stuff over and over. There is nothing to gain from arguing with him.
too late, i got what i needed: the truth.... human reactions reveal the truth better than anything... and it only took me 1 day to get it!!

if i was spouting nonsense, i might have gotten 5 responses total, maybe none at all, or the mods might remove the thread.

but the cat's out of the bag - 12 pages in 1 day is the best possible proof of a valid argument and shows just how sensitive a topic Lebron's ball domination is.

the intense reaction by posters itt is MUCH better proof of Lebron's overrated passing than the raw SportsVu data revealing Lebron's 6.3 assist average is quite standard in light of his point-guard level of ball-domination.

very compelling... i'm convinced more than ever... thanks fellas - you guys are all very cool for taking my points so seriously and in doing so, proving the validity of my claims... :pimp:
.

[Harison]

I thought Lebron is in Top10 among ball dominant players :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

too late, i got what i needed: the truth.... human reactions reveal the truth better than anything... and it only took me 1 day to get it!!

if i was spouting nonsense, i might have gotten 5 responses total, maybe none at all, or the mods might remove the thread.

but the cat's out of the bag - 12 pages in 1 day is the best possible proof of a valid argument and shows just how sensitive a topic Lebron's ball domination is.

the intense reaction by posters itt is MUCH better proof of Lebron's overrated passing than the raw SportsVu data revealing Lebron's 6.3 assist average is quite standard in light of his point-guard level of ball-domination.

very compelling... i'm convinced more than ever... thanks fellas - you guys are all very cool for taking my points so seriously and in doing so, proving the validity of my claims... :pimp:





I thought Lebron is in Top10 among ball dominant players


no, he's #16.

lebron's 6.3 assists per game is nothing compared to the REAL best-passing ball-dominators that averaged literally twice as many assists (Nash, CP3, Stockton, Magic, etc, etc)... lebron is often erroneously compared to these guys in the most egregious and inaccurate fashion.

and considering his point-guard level of ball-domination, lebron's 6.3 assist average is an underachievement compared to OFF-BALL players that had similar averages (i.e. Durant's ball domination was 27.5% less, but he only averaged 14% less assists than Lebron - 5.5 to 6.3).

[KobesFinger]

Rank these passers:

Jordan, Magic, Nash, Stockton, CP3

[3ball]

Rank these passers:

Jordan, Magic, Nash, Stockton, CP3


it's hard to say because we never saw jordan play point guard like these guys....

except one time when Doug Collins switched Jordan to point guard for the last 24 games of the 1989 season (http://www.complex.com/sports/2014/01/michael-jordan-point-guard-in-1989-posted-triple-double-10-of-11-games), at which point his assists doubled and he averaged 30.4 points, 9.2 rebounds, and 10.7 assists (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1989/#322-345-sum:pgl_basic), including a stretch of 10 triple doubles in 11 games.

here's a few articles that were written about Jordan during his 24-game stint at point guard... http://ballislife.com/michael-jordan-could-of-been-the-best-point-guard-ever-want-proof/

"In just 16 games at point guard, Jordan has gone from the league’s leading scorer the last two seasons to being lumped with Johnson, John Stockton of Utah and Isiah Thomas of Detroit as the elite among NBA point guards. Jordan may already be the best of the group."... Atlanta-Journal Constitution

Other than Magic always being #1 no matter what, it's hard to rank them when you throw Jordan in there - without Jordan included, I would go magic, stockton, nash, then cp3..
.

[Sarcastic]

Rank these passers:

Jordan, Magic, Nash, Stockton, CP3


1 Magic
2 Everybody else

[poido123]

:roll:


3Ball can go along with Dragic and his alts.

Cringing at how hard he goes on about Jordan. :(

[3ball]

3Ball can go along with Dragic and his alts.

Cringing at how hard he goes on about Jordan.


I didn't say much about Jordan in my last post - I just posted the media articles written about Jordan during his 24-game stint at point guard..


http://ballislife.com/michael-jordan-could-of-been-the-best-point-guard-ever-want-proof/

"In just 16 games at point guard, Jordan has gone from the league’s leading scorer the last two seasons to being lumped with Johnson, John Stockton of Utah and Isiah Thomas of Detroit as the elite among NBA point guards. Jordan may already be the best of the group."

- Atlanta-Journal Constitution


i'm just the messenger... :confusedshrug:

[Warfan]

I didn't say much about Jordan in my last post - I just posted the media articles written about Jordan during his 24-game stint at point guard..


http://ballislife.com/michael-jordan-could-of-been-the-best-point-guard-ever-want-proof/

"In just 16 games at point guard, Jordan has gone from the league’s leading scorer the last two seasons to being lumped with Johnson, John Stockton of Utah and Isiah Thomas of Detroit as the elite among NBA point guards. Jordan may already be the best of the group."

- Atlanta-Journal Constitution


i'm just the messenger... :confusedshrug:

And hopefully someone shoots you

seriously doe, you're a weird ass nikka, idolizing another grown man and shit

[VengefulAngel]

And hopefully someone shoots you

seriously doe, you're a weird ass nikka, idolizing another grown man and shit

Why are you responding to this idiot?

[poido123]

I didn't say much about Jordan in my last post - I just posted the media articles written about Jordan during his 24-game stint at point guard..


http://ballislife.com/michael-jordan-could-of-been-the-best-point-guard-ever-want-proof/

"In just 16 games at point guard, Jordan has gone from the league’s leading scorer the last two seasons to being lumped with Johnson, John Stockton of Utah and Isiah Thomas of Detroit as the elite among NBA point guards. Jordan may already be the best of the group."

- Atlanta-Journal Constitution


i'm just the messenger... :confusedshrug:



Ok, time out.


What are you trying to achieve here? What do you think this endless debate about how great Jordan was, is going to do for you?

Do you realise that Jordan is already regarded by most as GOAT?

He's such an arsehole in real life, that he would laugh at the thought of a poster (like you) posting endless rants about how great he is, so I find it kind of sad really.

You need to chill and just take it easy on the Jordan talk. Try and understand different POV's and apply it to what you already know.

What you are doing(probably unintentionally) is making it unbearable for other Jordan fans on here to have a serious talk with opposing fans on here about Jordan. You are making it easy for other posters to hate Jordan and his fans.

I love jordan, but here on ISH he is a tiresome topic of debate. I go out of my way to not make threads about him, and I try and avoid being baited into a discussion about him.

So please, as a fellow Jordan fan, try talk about other things. :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

Ok, time out.

What are you trying to achieve here? What do you think this endless debate about how great Jordan was, is going to do for you?

Do you realise that Jordan is already regarded by most as GOAT?

He's such an arsehole in real life, that he would laugh at the thought of a poster (like you) posting endless rants about how great he is, so I find it kind of sad really.

You need to chill and just take it easy on the Jordan talk. Try and understand different POV's and apply it to what you already know.

What you are doing(probably unintentionally) is making it unbearable for other Jordan fans on here to have a serious talk with opposing fans on here about Jordan. You are making it easy for other posters to hate Jordan and his fans.

I love jordan, but here on ISH he is a tiresome topic of debate. I go out of my way to not make threads about him, and I try and avoid being baited into a discussion about him.

So please, as a fellow Jordan fan, try talk about other things. :confusedshrug:
Did you even read the OP?

What is wrong with showing that according to the new, cutting edge SportsVu data, Lebron dominates the ball as much as point guards and more than any non-point guard - this is interesting data - it proves Lebron dominates the ball more than any other wing.

Why would you have a problem with this?

The top ball-dominators in 2014 averaged between 4 and 11 assists per game, so Lebron's 6.3 assist average is completely standard for primary ballhandlers, and overrated in comparison with off-ball players that get the same assist averages, as well as the true best-passing ball-dominators like Magic, Nash, or Stockton, who averaged twice the assists of Lebron.

How is this not a completely reasonable thread topic?.... Quit your whining, it's factual data from SportsVu and the thread got 12 pages in 1 day... :rockon:
.

[DatAsh]

"Off ball passer." (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10618750#post10618750)

I kind of regret that topic closing, only because I'd really like to know what that means.

:lol

[DatAsh]

Your argument is invalid because you're using two sets of entirely different data to compare the same criteria. While I'm sure most people who saw both would agree Jordan held the ball less than LeBron over their careers (so far), it's a clear fallacy to compare empirical data (LeBron's time on the ball) with an assumption (Jordan = off ball player), and conclude that Jordan spends so much time less on the ball that his assist stats are automatically more impressive despite being inferior. You need to present the same data for Jordan to make a valid comparison. Conversely, how is it not impressive for LeBron to finish 37th on time on the ball in the league, yet 10th in APG?


This is a good point.

[3ball]

This is a good point.


i answered that post with the one below
.

[3ball]

it's a clear fallacy to compare empirical data (LeBron's time on the ball) with an assumption (Jordan = off ball player), and conclude that Jordan spends so much time less on the ball that his assist stats are automatically more impressive despite being inferior. You need to present the same data for Jordan to make a valid comparison.


To answer your concern here, keep in mind that in my last post, I quoted three other posters who said Lebron plays point guard - and the SportsVu data shows that Lebron dominates the ball as much as point guards.

But the only time Jordan played point guard was that 24-game stretch at the end of the 1989, when his assist numbers almost doubled - the jump in his assist numbers was not a coincidence... It happened because Collins put him at point guard.

What more data do you need?.... Jordan's numbers were SO ridiculous during that stretch that they can't be a result of chance or anything other than a major change in his ballhandling duties.





Conversely, how is it not impressive for LeBron to finish 37th on time on the ball in the league, yet 10th in APG?


Lebron was 16th in the league in assists, not 10th... and 6.3 assists is pretty average for a point guard... you should stop overrating his assist stats considering he dominates the ball so much - he's nowhere NEAR being one of the best-passing ball dominators along the likes of Nash, Magic, CP3, etc.





Secondly, you're taking a high assist stretch from Jordan's career......

In fact in 2009, when LeBron played more PG, he averaged almost 9apg over an entire season.


For their entire careers in the playoffs, Lebron averages 6.4 assists to Jordan's 5.7, so no need for me to cherry-pick.

Also, Jordan averaged 8 assists per game in 1989 but he only played point-guard the last 24 games of the year (11 assists per game for that stretch) - if he had played point guard the entire year like Lebron does, he would have averaged 9+ assists easily - it's simple math.





Passing is something you judge with your eyes. And most avid - yet somewhat unbiased - basketball fans would tell you that LeBron is a better passer than Jordan. Not just that, LeBron is one of the greatest passers of all time, certainly among non-PGs. Certainly not to imply Jordan himself wasn't a great passer for his position, but this is something LeBron is better at.


Westbrook, marbury and iverson are all good passers, but the shooting inefficiency, attitude, and bad shot selection of those players casts a negative shadow on their assists.

Also, you say the eye test works for passing, but if the player in question doesn't get his assists by dribbling out top and playing a point-guard, ball-dominant style, then he isn't a great passer to you.

And even when Jordan did the flashy ball-dominance thing that you like - when Collins moved him to point guard for the last 24 games of the 1989 season (http://www.complex.com/sports/2014/01/michael-jordan-point-guard-in-1989-posted-triple-double-10-of-11-games), and he put up far better numbers than Lebron ever has (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1989/#322-345-sum:pgl_basic), including a stretch of 10 triple-doubles in 11 games, you just ignore it as if it meant nothing that Jordan's assist average literally doubled the moment Collins moved him to point guard.

How about this for an eye test - Has Lebron ever gotten 10 triple-doubles in 11 games?... Has he ever gotten a triple-double in 21 minutes?.... Has he ever averaged 11 assists in the Finals???.... Does he make quick decisions with his passing??... No.. no... no.. and no to all these eye-tests.

[aj1987]

Lebron was 16th in the league in assists, not 10th
LeBron WAS 10th, you retarded downs syndrome ****.
http://stats.nba.com/leadersGrid.html?PerMode=PerGame&sortField=AST&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Scope=S&StatCategory=AST&Season=2013-14&pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=25&columnOrder=

[ILLsmak]

they can't be trolls if they are facts... :confusedshrug:... how are these inaccurate?


1) Lebron dominates the ball as much as point guards and more than any other non-point guard.


2) Lebron gets an average number of assists for a point guard (6.3) - he's nowhere near being one of the better-passing ball-dominators, like say, Nash, Magic, CP3 and the like.


3) Lebron's passing is overrated when compared to off-ball players Bird and Jordan, since they average about the same assists without dominating the ball.


4) Given how much he dominates the ball and plays point guard, Lebron underachieves with his assist totals compared to other wings - even Durant gets only 14% less assists (5.5 to 6.3), but has 27.5% less time with the ball.
.

Haha I am very luke-warm on LeBron, but the issue is... FACTS. Believe it or not, in life a fact cannot prove something. There are many facts. A fact is just one piece of the puzzle. Our world is complex.

It's like FACT LeBron shoots a higher 3 point percentage than (great shooter.) Like BRON IS A BETTER SHOOTER THAN LARRY BIRD.

Does Bron dominate the ball, of course. You can definitely troll people with facts. 2/5 is a fact. 5 rangz is a fact. Stappit.

I think you are probably a smart dude, despite being an alt... stop it.

-Smak

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Wait....So data showing that he dominates the ball less than 35 other PGs in the league (considering there are only 30 starting PGs) confirms that he dominates the ball like a PG? lmao

[3ball]

Haha I am very luke-warm on LeBron, but the issue is... FACTS. Believe it or not, in life a fact cannot prove something. There are many facts. A fact is just one piece of the puzzle. Our world is complex.

It's like FACT LeBron shoots a higher 3 point percentage than (great shooter.) Like BRON IS A BETTER SHOOTER THAN LARRY BIRD.

Does Bron dominate the ball, of course. You can definitely troll people with facts. 2/5 is a fact. 5 rangz is a fact. Stappit.

-Smak


are you on lsd... this is the most vague post ever
.

[3ball]

Wait....So data showing that he dominates the ball less than 35 other PGs in the league (considering there are only 30 starting PGs) confirms that he dominates the ball like a PG?


http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingTouches.html?pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=50&sortField=TOP&sortOrder=DES

The list above showing the top 50 ball-dominators in 2014 is taken from nba.com/stats - it shows that Lebron dominated the ball more than 4 starting point guards, including 17% more than his own teammate, Chalmers:

Steve Blake
Monta Ellis
Jose Calderon
Mario Chalmers

And at 37th on the ball domination list, Lebron is the first non-point guard - so Lebron dominates the ball more than any non-point guard... he's the most ball-dominant wing and 2014 was actually the year he made efforts to play off-ball... In his Cleveland days when he never played off-ball, he would have been ahead of MANY starting point guards.... (in this analysis, keep in mind Jordan Crawford is not a starter).

If you look at that list, the top 50 ball-dominators in 2014 averaged between 4 and 11 assists per game, so Lebron's 6.3 assist average is completely standard for primary ballhandlers, and overrated in comparison with off-ball players that get the same assist averages, as well as the true best-passing ball-dominators like Magic, Nash, or Stockton, who averaged twice the assists of Lebron.
.

[Milbuck]

Considering Lebron is better than pretty much every point guard at being a point guard, he doesn't dominate the ball enough. 37th is way too low for the best PG in the game.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingTouches.html?pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=50&sortField=TOP&sortOrder=DES

The list of top 50 ball-dominators above, taken from nba.com/stats shows that Lebron dominated the ball more than 4 starting point guards, including 17% more than his own teammate, Chalmers:

Steve Blake
Monta Ellis
Jose Calderon
Mario Chalmers

And at 37th on the ball domination list, Lebron is the first non-point guard - so Lebron dominates the ball more than any non-point guard... he's the most ball-dominant wing and 2014 was actually the year he made efforts to play off-ball... In his Cleveland days, he would have been ahead of MANY starting point guards.... (in this analysis, keep in mind Jordan Crawford is not a starter).

If you look at that list, the top 50 ball-dominators in 2014 averaged between 4 and 11 assists per game, so Lebron's 6.3 assist average is completely standard for primary ballhandlers, and overrated in comparison with off-ball players that get the same assist averages, as well as the true best-passing ball-dominators like Magic, Nash, or Stockton, who averaged twice the assists of Lebron.


So much wrong with this post....

1) Kobe, Bledsoe (Dragic if you consider Bledsoe the PG) are above him and Harden is one spot below.

2) This is just a total time of possession stat...Obviously LeBron who plays 38 total minutes in a game is going to be high on the list

Let's look at the actual "ball dominance" (Time of possesion/Total time) stat of notable ball-handling wings:

LeBron James: 0.134
Kobe Bryant: 0.186 (small sample)
James Harden: 0.128
Monta Ellis: 0.124
Dwyane Wade: 0.103
Mario Chalmers: 0.147 (not a wing but proof that he doesn't dominate the ball more than his PG)
Norris Cole: 0.141 (not a wing but proof that he doesn't dominate the ball more than his PG)
Tyreke Evans: 0.124


Factoring in the fact that he's the best ball handling/passing wing in the league right now the amount he handles the ball is really not bad at all...

[tmacattack33]

Wow, i actually thought he'd be a lot higher up than 37th.

...so he's 37th on this list, yet was 14th in assists, and the OP thinks this argues against Lebron?

:roll:



Oh, and i do see some non-PG's head of him on that list. So OP is not even accurate.

[3ball]

Oh, and i do see some non-PG's head of him on that list.


really?... like who???

kobe only played 6 games and jordan crawford isn't a starter....

http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingTouches.html?pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=50&sortField=TOP&sortOrder=DES

So there's really only two non-point guards on the top 50 list of ball domination, and that's Lebron and Harden; and Lebron is ahead of harden on the list.

so yeah, lebron is the most-ball dominant non-point guard, the most ball-dominant wing, and even more ball-dominant than a number of point guards (including the starting point guard on his own team, Chalmers, who he dominates the ball 17% more than)

Just think about how much higher lebron would be on the list back in his original cleveland days when he never played off-ball at all - after all, 2014 was the year he played off-ball the most in his career, and yet he's still the most ball-dominant non-point guard itl.

Also, if you look at that list, the top 50 ball-dominators in 2014 averaged between 4 and 11 assists per game, so Lebron's 6.3 assist average is completely standard for primary ballhandlers, and overrated in comparison with off-ball players that get the same assist averages... A 6.3 assist average for a ball-dominator is also overrated compared to the true best-passing ball-dominators like Magic, Nash, or Stockton, who averaged twice the assists of Lebron.

.

[Dresta]

Ill explain it quickly for those who are a little slow.

Dwyane Wade was out for a hefty proportion of the season who usually shares ball handling responsibilities with Lebron and the Miami PGS. Now if you were to divvy up possessions between Mario Chalmers initiating the offense or Lebron who would you choose?

Clearly you would choose Lebron. Plus Lebron averaged 6.4 assists if we compare it to the PG's above him, im pretty sure they would be comparable...
Look, this clearly shows that Lebron was monopolising the ball somewhat (especially considering he was far worse earlier in his career). This is a per game stat and yet Wade is below Bron, Chalmers AND Cole, yet he still had a high usage. What this means is that Bron spent loads of time pounding the ball at the top of the key (not great for getting other guys involved), whereas Wade either made a move or passed the damn ball. Bron is a bit of a ballstopper, and this should really be admitted by now, it's been obvious his entire career.

[ArbitraryWater]

I love how you are still dodging my question :oldlol:

"Which non-PG do you want handling the Ball more than LeBron?"

Because through the League, you obviously have a very poor argument being just 37th...

[3ball]

Which active non-PG do you want handling the ball more than LeBron?


generally, when a guard is the primary ballhandler, it disrupts the natural composition of the team less than a forward.

otoh, having a forward as the primary ballhandler disrupts the team a bit, but it can be worth it if the forward is sufficiently productive, as lebron was pre-2010.

But i believe at this stage in his career, Lebron has slowed down a bit, and can't generate raw production like a 40+ point game or triple-double as easily as he used to, so he increasingly focuses on shooting efficiency - but this focus on shooting efficiency over raw production makes him a regular forward again that doesn't have quite enough raw production to justify him disrupting the team by being the primary ballhandler.

So since he's slowed down a bit and doesn't quite have sufficient raw production to justify the team disruption caused by a forward being the primary ballhandler, he should split his time between the block and as the primary ballhandler.. And the times he is on the block, the primary ballhandler could be any SG, SF, or even a big man.

[Kvnzhangyay]

really?... like who???

kobe only played 6 games and jordan crawford isn't a starter....

http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingTouches.html?pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=50&sortField=TOP&sortOrder=DES

So there's really only two non-point guards on the top 50 list of ball domination, and that's Lebron and Harden; and Lebron is ahead of harden on the list.

so yeah, lebron is the most-ball dominant non-point guard, the most ball-dominant wing, and even more ball-dominant than a number of point guards (including the starting point guard on his own team, Chalmers, who he dominates the ball 17% more than)

Just think about how much higher lebron would be on the list back in his original cleveland days when he never played off-ball at all - after all, 2014 was the year he played off-ball the most in his career, and yet he's still the most ball-dominant non-point guard itl.

Also, if you look at that list, the top 50 ball-dominators in 2014 averaged between 4 and 11 assists per game, so Lebron's 6.3 assist average is completely standard for primary ballhandlers, and overrated in comparison with off-ball players that get the same assist averages... A 6.3 assist average for a ball-dominator is also overrated compared to the true best-passing ball-dominators like Magic, Nash, or Stockton, who averaged twice the assists of Lebron.

.

You talk so much about usage % and stuff, but Jordan has a career usg% of 33.3 and Lebrons is 31.6... Now I acknowledge differences in styles, but that is moot as we are discussing assisting ability and trying to account for "what could have been" makes no logical sense as that is completely up to opinion.

Despite all your raw assist numbers, you forget that Jordan has a career 24.9 assist % (highest= 34.7% in 88-89) and Lebron has a career 34.2 assist % (Highest= 41.8% in 2009-2010). Keep in mind Magic's career assist % is 40.9. That means despite all your raw assist numbers and stuff, Lebron still vastly has more assists per the time he is on the floor. The reason Jordan's raw assist numbers are closer than they actually are is due to multiple factors, primarily Jordans higher usg% and somewhat due to a difference in pace.

Not to mention, Jordan's highest USG% is 2nd all time, while Lebron's highest is 28th. In Jordan's highest USG% year, he only had an assist % of 22.2 and averaged 4.6 assists (86-87). In Lebron's highest usage year (07-08) he had an assist % of 37.3 and averaged 7.2 assists per game.

[3ball]

You talk so much about usage % and stuff, but Jordan has a career usg% of 33.3 and Lebrons is 31.6...
Another poster that has no clue what usage means...


PAUU Club Member List (Posters Against Understanding Usage)

Millbuck
Pauk

And let's welcome our latest member, Kvnzhangyay!!.... :applause:
.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Another poster that has no clue what usage means...


PAUU Club Member List (Posters Against Understanding Usage)

Millbuck
Pauk

And let's welcome our latest member, Kvnzhangyay!!.... :applause:
.
Unless I'm wrong, USG% is the estimate of the % of plays used by a player, and even though assists do not factor into the equation, it still shows relatively how much the person handles the ball. Even though USG% does not look at assists as heavily as shot attempts, it still shows a general estimate of how much the person has the ball, as when someone has the ball enough to put up so much shot attempts/drive in so much for free throw attempts that means they obviously get the ball for significant amounts of time, which gives plenty of possessions for passing/getting assists.


So explain the assist %? Or are you conceding my main argument

[3ball]

So explain the assist %?
not wasting my time when you can look it up and it makes no difference - all of lebron's assist stats are:

1) average for a ball-dominator
2) close to various off-ball players like Bird and Jordan
3) nowhere near the real best-passing ball-dominators like Magic, Nash, Stockton, etc, etc.

learn what the advanced stats mean before using them to argue a point... :confusedshrug:

[Kvnzhangyay]

not wasting my time when you can look it up and it makes no difference - all of lebron's assist stats are:

1) average for a ball-dominator
2) pretty close to various off-ball players like Bird and Jordan
3) nowhere near the real best-passing ball-dominators like Magic, Nash, Stockton, etc, etc.

learn what the advanced stats mean before using them to argue a point... :confusedshrug:

So as such you are conceding my assist % argument because you have no way to argue against it

[3ball]

So as such you are conceding my assist % argument because you have no way to argue against it
you have no argument - lebron's assist % is average for a ball-dominator.
.

[Kvnzhangyay]

you have no argument - lebron's assist % is average for a ball-dominator and almost the same as Jordan's.

You realize Lebron's assist % of 34.15% is higher than many other passers you say are much "close", such as Jordan's 24.93% and Bird's 24.72%

Cmon man at least know your stats :facepalm

Note with assist % BALL DOMINANCE DOES NOT MATTER, as it only counts the PERCENTAGE of assists, not the raw magnitude.

[3ball]

You realize Lebron's assist % of 34.15% is higher than many other passers you say are much better, such as Jordan's 24.93% and Bird's 24.72%

Cmon man at least know your stats :facepalm

Note with assist % BALL DOMINANCE DOES NOT MATTER, as it only counts the PERCENTAGE of assists, not the raw magnitude.
how are you not understanding that the whole reason ball-dominance was brought up itt and the whole reason ball-dominance is an important issue as it relates to passing, is because if you dominate the ball, it is easier to get assists!!!

how can you not understand this?

so why brag about lebron having a standard assist-level for a ball-dominator, and barely having more assists than off-ball players Bird and Jordan?

[Kvnzhangyay]

how are you not understanding that the whole reason ball-dominance was brought up itt and the whole reason ball-dominance is an important issue as it relates to passing, is because if you dominate the ball, it is easier to get assists!!!

how can you not understand this?

so why brag about lebron having a standard assist-level for a ball-dominator, and barely having more assists than off-ball players Bird and Jordan?

Again, ball dominance does not matter in assist%. How do you not get this simple concept?

[3ball]

Again, ball dominance does not matter in assist%. How do you not get this simple concept?
if you dominate the ball, it is easier to have a higher assist percentage.

[DatAsh]

Unless I'm wrong, USG% is the estimate of the % of plays used by a player, and even though assists do not factor into the equation, it still shows relatively how much the person handles the ball. Even though USG% does not look at assists as heavily as shot attempts, it still shows a general estimate of how much the person has the ball, as when someone has the ball enough to put up so much shot attempts/drive in so much for free throw attempts that means they obviously get the ball for significant amounts of time, which gives plenty of possessions for passing/getting assists.


So explain the assist %? Or are you conceding my main argument

Usage rate is different than time of possession.

"Player A dribbles the ball at the top of the key for 20 seconds every possession, then he passes it to a pg who passes to someone else. Player B runs off ball for 20 seconds every possession, then his pg passes him the ball and he either shoots it or passes it to someone else.

Player A has a very high time of possession but a very low usage rate. Player B has a very high usage rate but a very low time of possession."

I don't think 3ball is trying to argue usage rate, but rather time of possession.

[ArbitraryWater]

"Which non-PG do you want handling the Ball more than LeBron?" ....

[3ball]

"Which non-PG do you want handling the Ball more than LeBron?" ....
I answered it twice already..

[3ball]

http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingTouches.html?pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=50&sortField=TOP&sortOrder=DES

Just think about how much higher lebron would be on the ball-domination list back in his original cleveland days, when he never played off-ball at all - after all, 2014 was the year he played off-ball the most in his career, and yet he was still the most ball-dominant non-point guard itl.

Also, the list shows that the top 50 ball-dominators in 2014 averaged between 4 and 11 assists per game, so Lebron's 6.3 assist average is completely standard for primary ballhandlers, and overrated in comparison with off-ball players that get the same assist averages... A 6.3 assist average for a ball-dominator is also overrated compared to the real best-passing ball-dominators like Magic, Nash, or Stockton, who averaged twice the assists of Lebron.

So it is feasible to say that Lebron underachieves with his passing given his ball-domination - even Durant dominated the ball 27.5% less, but only had 13% less assists (5.5 to 6.3).

[VengefulAngel]

You guys are still getting trolled lol... Don't bother.

[3ball]

Which active non-PG do you want handling the ball more than LeBron?


generally, when a guard is the primary ballhandler, it disrupts the natural composition of the team less than a forward.

otoh, having a forward as the primary ballhandler disrupts the team a bit, but it can be worth it if the forward is sufficiently productive, as lebron was pre-2010.

But i believe at this stage in his career, Lebron has slowed down a bit, and can't generate raw production like a 40+ point game or triple-double as easily as he used to, so he increasingly focuses on shooting efficiency - but this focus on shooting efficiency over raw production makes him a regular forward again that doesn't have quite enough raw production to justify him disrupting the team by being the primary ballhandler.

So since he's slowed down a bit and doesn't quite have sufficient raw production to justify the team disruption caused by a forward being the primary ballhandler, he should split his time between the block and as the primary ballhandler.. And the times he is on the block, the primary ballhandler could be any SG, SF, or even a big man <------------ the italics here is your answer AW.
.

[KobesFinger]

generally, when a guard is the primary ballhandler, it disrupts the natural composition of the team less than a forward.

otoh, having a forward as the primary ballhandler disrupts the team a bit, but it can be worth it if the forward is sufficiently productive, as lebron was pre-2010.

But i believe at this stage in his career, Lebron has slowed down a bit, and can't generate raw production like a 40+ point game or triple-double as easily as he used to, so he increasingly focuses on shooting efficiency - but this focus on shooting efficiency over raw production makes him a regular forward again that doesn't have quite enough raw production to justify him disrupting the team by being the primary ballhandler.

So since he's slowed down a bit and doesn't quite have sufficient raw production to justify the team disruption caused by a forward being the primary ballhandler, he should split his time between the block and as the primary ballhandler.. And the times he is on the block, the primary ballhandler could be any SG, SF, or even a big man.
.

That doesn't answer his question.

[sdot_thadon]

Dude this whole ball domination kick you're on is kinda pointless seeing as you don't have any numbers for Mj's time of possession for a level comparison. So you compare lebron to basically the rest of the nba in general and somehow don't figure Jordan into it at all, yet come to a conclusion that includes Jordan? :biggums:

[3ball]

That doesn't answer his question.



yes i did, but maybe didn't explain it well..

i said that generally, when a guard is the primary ballhandler, it disrupts the natural composition of the team less than a forward.

so literally ANY guard would be better than lebron as the primary ballhandler, now that lebron's production isn't high enough anymore to justify the team disruption caused by having a forward as the primary ballhandler.
.

[VengefulAngel]

yes i did, but maybe didn't explain it well..

i said that generally, when a guard is the primary ballhandler, it disrupts the natural composition of the team less than a forward.

so literally ANY guard would be better than lebron as the primary ballhandler, now that lebron's production isn't high enough anymore to justify the team disruption caused by having a forward as the primary ballhandler.
.

Name ONE, you imbecile.

[KobesFinger]

yes i did, but maybe didn't explain it well..

i said that generally, when a guard is the primary ballhandler, it disrupts the natural composition of the team less than a forward.

so literally ANY guard would be better than lebron as the primary ballhandler, now that lebron's production isn't at that next level anymore, where it justifies the team disruption caused by having a forward as the primary ballhandler.

Any guard? Or any guard above LeBron in that list? Or any guard who averages more assists than him?

EDIT: And also, he specified non-guards and you're talking about guards

[3ball]

Name ONE, you imbecile.
Having a guard be the primary ballhandler will generally disrupt the team less than a forward.

Lebron's production last year was lower, and no longer high enough to justify the team disruption caused by a forward being the primary ballhandler.

so ANY guard would have been better - Chalmers and/or Wade for example.

either or both would have been a better option as the primary ballhandler, with Lebron playing more off-ball - by the end of the season (assuming Lebron was sufficiently competent off-ball), the Heat would have been a much more capable team overall with everyone playing to their strengths and full capacity.

[VengefulAngel]

Having a guard be the primary ballhandler will generally disrupt the team less than a forward.

Lebron's production last year was lower, and no longer high enough to justify the team disruption caused by a forward being the primary ballhandler.

so ANY guard would have been better - Chalmers and/or Wade for example.

either or both would have been a better option as the primary ballhandler, with Lebron playing more off-ball - by the end of the season (assuming Lebron was sufficiently competent off-ball), the Heat would have been a much more capable team overall.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[KobesFinger]

Chalmers?

http://i.imgur.com/3vKJqc7.gif

[3ball]

Having a guard be the primary ballhandler will generally disrupt the team less than a forward.

Lebron's production last year was lower, and no longer high enough to justify the team disruption caused by a forward being the primary ballhandler.

so ANY guard would have been better - Chalmers and/or Wade for example.

either or both would have been a better option as the primary ballhandler, with Lebron playing more off-ball - by the end of the season (assuming Lebron was sufficiently competent off-ball), the Heat would have been a much more capable team overall.



:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
With Lebron getting his same numbers, but doing so OFF-ball, everyone is in their natural position and can play to their strengths.

the previous sentence has a 2+2=4 level of logic... it would simply HAVE to be the case... :confusedshrug:

it's the cold hard truth... although feel free to laugh about it if you want... i suspect it's a fake laugh though.

[KobesFinger]

With Lebron getting his same numbers, but doing so OFF-ball, everyone is in their natural position and can play to their strengths.

the logic of the previous sentence is of the 2+2=4 level... it would simply HAVE to be the case... :confusedshrug:

it's the cold hard truth... although feel free to laugh about it if you want... i suspect it's a fake laugh though.

LeBron presents a mismatch every time he's on the court. Other teams game plan for him, not Chalmers or Wade (anymore), making the game easier for them.

the logic of the previous sentence is of the 2+2=4level.. it would simply HAVE to be the case... :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

making the game easier for them.


Chalmers and Wade don't need the game to be made easier for them...

they need to be able to play to their capacity, which results in better team success than the 2014 Finals
.

[Milbuck]

Did this dude seriously just say Chalmers handling the ball would be better than Lebron?

[3ball]

Did this dude seriously just say Chalmers handling the ball would be better than Lebron?
yes, because it's true - if lebron could get the SAME production off-ball that he got on-ball, then what do you care if he plays off-ball and lets Chalmers handle it?

and if he's off-ball, then Chalmers and Wade get to play to their natural strengths and confidence, which makes the overall team capability greater.

in the end, better team capability is the only objective that matters, not making sure lebron can be the primary ballhandler so he can he get his.

[KobesFinger]

yes, because it's true - if lebron could get the SAME production off-ball that he got on-ball, then what do you care if he plays off-ball and lets Chalmers handle it?

and if he's off-ball, then Chalmers and Wade get to play to their natural strengths and confidence, which makes the overall team capability greater.

in the end, better team capability is the only objective that matters, not making sure lebron can be the primary ballhandler so he can he get his.

Why would you have your best ball handler off ball? Thats sub-optimal. LeBron isn't primary ball handler so he can "get his", he's the primary ball handler because he's always been the best PG on his teams.

[3ball]

Why would you have your best ball handler off ball?

he's the primary ball handler because he's always been the best PG on his teams.


Jordan was the best ballhandler and point guard on his teams too.

But I guess that's why Jordan is the GOAT - He happened to be capable of getting the same production off-ball, which allowed teammates to play to their strengths so the team's capability could be maximized.

Inferior capability to achieve maximum utilization of his team's capacity - that's the reason Lebron's personal performance falls short and his teams are never as good.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

As i've already proven Chalmers and Cole handled the ball more than LeBron when they were actually on the court. Of course if LeBron is playing 38 mins and Cole/Chalmers are playing in the 20s LeBron is gonna have a higher total.

[3ball]

As i've already proven Chalmers and Cole handled the ball more than LeBron when they were actually on the court. Of course if LeBron is playing 38 mins and Cole/Chalmers are playing in the 20s LeBron is gonna have a higher total.
doesn't change the fact that lebron dominates the ball more than any non-point guard and as much as point guards.

which means his 6.3 assist total is about average considering his ball-domination, and overrated in comparison to off-ball players that get the same assists like Bird and Jordan... his assist average is also overrated compared to the real best-passing ball-dominators like Magic, Nash, etc, that averaged twice the assists of lebron.

lebron's assist average can be considered an underachievement considering this new SportVu ball-domination data - i.e. durant dominates the ball 27.5% less, but gets only 13% less assists (5.5 to 6.3).
.

[mehyaM24]

LeBron presents a mismatch every time he's on the court. Other teams game plan for him, not Chalmers or Wade (anymore), making the game easier for them.
great point - lebron has had success, unlike jordan, since his rookie year

[3ball]

Why would you have your best ball handler off ball?

he's the primary ball handler because he's always been the best PG on his teams.





Jordan was the best ballhandler and point guard on his teams too.

But I guess that's why Jordan is the GOAT - He happened to be capable of getting the same production off-ball, which allowed teammates to play to their strengths so the team's capability could be maximized.

Inferior capability to achieve maximum utilization of his team's capacity - that's the reason Lebron's personal performance falls short and his teams are never as good.


To follow up on this - I think we've figured out the main reason Jordan is so much better - while it's great and all to have Lebron rack up numbers as the primary ballhandler, Jordan could do the same thing, while ALSO being capable of getting the same production off-ball, which allowed teammates to play to their strengths so the team's capability could be maximized - that's why Lebron can't match Jordan's personal or team performance.

[mehyaM24]

great point - lebron has had success, unlike jordan, since his rookie year

i also wanted to expand on some critical thoughts:

this is what make lebron and his assists spectacular - why he's had success dating back to his rookie year. like bird and magic, lebron makes his teammates better. this is backed by clevelands record before and after lebron's arrival and subsequent departure (you'll see the trend this year AS WELL).

with jordan - yes we do NOT have sufficient data regarding his "ball dominance" - but we can simply go off of results - they work just as well. WITH jordan dominating the basketball (like no other NON PG ever has e.g., the 1989 season) his playoff record was an abysmal 1-9 without scottie pippen. think about that. 10 tries and the bulls could only win a single playoff game. this is an indictment against jordan - and why i not only refuse to put him in my top 2 - but now thinking about removing him from my #1 tier.

of course - we know once pippen arrived in chicago, greener pastures awaited.. and history was made.

please refer to my pippen vs lebron passing thread for further perspective.

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/lebrontowade2012pacers1-54431fc15c710.gif
#RESULTS

[kshutts1]

I've read through only 3 pages, and there's a lot of misunderstanding/misinformation going on, along with 3ball's either blind bias or straight trolling.

Pretty terrible thread, IMO. And I just "contributed" :facepalm

[3ball]

I've read through only 3 pages, and there's a lot of misunderstanding/misinformation going on


i assume you mean people coming on here blatantly lying about what the term "Usage" entails.





along with 3ball's either blind bias or straight trolling.


Cutting edge data like SportsVu is bias and trolling when you don't like what it reveals?

http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingTouches.html?pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=50&sortField=TOP&sortOrder=DES

SportsVu data confirmed that Lebron is the most ball-dominant non point-guard in the league.

How is this biased?
.

[tmacattack33]

This is one of the worst threads i've read on here in a while, and anyone posting in it (incuding myself a day ago) has been trolled hard.

I guess this is what happens in the days leading up to opening night.

[3ball]

anyone posting in it (incuding myself a day ago) has been trolled hard.

I guess this is what happens in the days leading up to opening night.


Data that confirms Lebron dominates the ball more than any non-point guard is not a troll.

It was a real boon for jlip to provide the data and smart of Prometheus to ask for it in the first place... :applause:

[mehyaM24]

I've read through only 3 pages, and there's a lot of misunderstanding/misinformation going on

the thing is, we have established there is no empirical data for jordan (regarding his ball dominance) - thus a proper comparison cannot be done - statistically - however we can simply differentiate the two with another method: playoff success


Pretty terrible thread, IMO.

i will TRY to get this back on track:

jordan was 1-9 in the postseason while being the most ball dominant NON PG of all time (or so the old statisticians said at scorers tables). OTH, lebron took his team to the finals @ 22 - the same age jordan led his bulls to a -.500 record (38-44).


And I just "contributed"

^^ these numbers i just posted are undeniable facts - AND also FULL (not half) informative truths . hope that helps :cheers:

[Kblaze8855]

This is one of the worst threads i've read on here in a while, and anyone posting in it (incuding myself a day ago) has been trolled hard.

Its in the bottom 10 of my 13 years on ISH.

That combined with the dozen or so reported posts....the fact hes clearly not gonna stop copy/pasting his previous posts....and clearly intends to let this continue forever.....

I think we are done here.

This not quite maniac repeating himself for 600 more posts does nothing to help anyone...its just gonna make me read two dozen more reported post emails....

[KobesFinger]

Jordan was the best ballhandler and point guard on his teams too.

But I guess that's why Jordan is the GOAT - He happened to be capable of getting the same production off-ball, which allowed teammates to play to their strengths so the team's capability could be maximized.

Inferior capability to achieve maximum utilization of his team's capacity - that's the reason Lebron's personal performance falls short and his teams are never as good.

Who is Scottie Pippen and what is the triangle?

[Kblaze8855]

http://www.securitysafetyproducts.co.uk/images/products_image2-2174-d.jpg