Better Playmaking Skills: LeBron vs Pippen

[mehyaM24]

now that we've established jordan's peak assist numbers during his triple-double streak didn't translate into a winning record, and the fact, he became an off ball player because he couldn't be trusted as the teams primary playmaker, evidenced by phil jackson anointing scottie pippen as the lead playmaker on offense in 1990 (the year pippen became an allstar) - who is the better playmaker of the two?

- better highlights
- more efficient passes
- better creator
- the least turnovers
- who made their teammates better

i think because scottie had a stacked team, you really cannot use his 6 championships against lebron (lebron's teammates and coaching in 2012 and 2013 - as far as all star caliber players / HOFers are concerned - werent the best - and certainly not on the level of the bulls').

given these facts and intricacies to measure their passing - who do you think was the better playmaker?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Not sure Pippen was a better passer than Jordan (its definitely arguable), but I would roll w/ Bron. Far as modern players AND non-pg's go, dude is in a class of his own. One of the greatest playmakers ever, for sure.

[mehyaM24]

^interesting. im still debating who i like more. lebron has better flashy passes - but are they more efficient? hmmm

[juju151111]

now that we've established jordan's peak assist numbers during his triple-double streak didn't translate into a winning record, and the fact, he became an off ball player because he couldn't be trusted as the teams primary playmaker, evidenced by phil jackson anointing scottie pippen as the lead playmaker on offense in 1990 (the year pippen became an allstar) - who is the better playmaker of the two?

- better highlights
- more efficient passes
- better creator
- the least turnovers
- who made their teammates better

i think because scottie had a stacked team, you really cannot use his 6 championships against lebron (lebron's teammates and coaching in 2012 and 2013 - as far as all star caliber players / HOFers are concerned - werent the best - and certainly not on the level of the bulls').

given these facts and intricacies to measure their passing - who do you think was the better playmaker?
Didn't translate to winning? Mj led the Bulls in playoffs asts 2/3 time in the first 3 peat. Also led them in PS asts in 89 and 90 when they made the ECF. Are you stupid?

[andgar923]

Pip better passer than MJ?

:lol

More wiling sure.

His primary role was to set up the offense. He couldn't create like MJ did, he didn't have MJ's court vision and timing.

A better comparison would be Odom and Pip.

Hell, to be honest I don't even know if I'd take Pip as the second best passer on the Bulls team. Kukoc had better instincts, timing and vision, so perhaps Odom and Kukoc comparison would be more suitable.

Bron>>>>> Pip

Bron better vision, timing, and could most def create better.

Some will interpret this as hating Pip or underrating him, but just putting shit in perspective.

Pip was a great all around player. But was usually 2nd tier when compared to other greats.

And no shit Pip was a better player then Kukoc. But Kukoc was special in his passing abilities, a unique 6'10 passer a la Magic. But Pip was basically superior in every other aspect and as a player all around in general.

Go ahead... let it begin.

[mehyaM24]

Didn't translate to winning? Mj led the Bulls in playoffs asts 2/3 time in the first 3 peat. Also led them in PS asts in 89 and 90 when they made the ECF. Are you stupid?

scottie also had a bigger sample size in the regular season, leading the bulls in assists i believe all 6 championship seasons and 4/6 championship runs.

this isnt about that, though - obviously scottie was the leader and playmaker (quoting johnny batch and phil jackson here) - but who is the better passer between lebron and pippen - two lead alphas that were offensive orchestrators.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Pippen was more intelligent, fluid, technical and skilled
Lebron was more powerful and explosive

[juju151111]

scottie also had a bigger sample size in the regular season, leading the bulls in assists i believe all 6 championship seasons and 4/6 championship runs.

this isnt about that, though - obviously scottie was the leader and playmaker (quoting what johnny batch and phil jackson here) - but who is the better passer between lebron and pippen. two lead alphas that were offensive orchestrators.
You just said Mj doesn't translate to winning and I showed you 3 postseason where he led them in asts. According to you they should of not gotten far in the Postseason. Pippen started leading consistently when Mj got old. Mj and Scottie was the leader retard. Mj taught Pippen in his early days.

[mehyaM24]

You just said Mj doesn't translate to winning and I showed you 3 postseason where he led them in asts. According to you they should of not gotten far in the Postseason. Pippen started leading consistently when Mj got old. Mj and Scottie was the leader retard. Mj taught Pippen in his early days.

assist numbers =/= lead playmaker. now scram, mythologist. :lol

[305Baller]

Bran is better than Pippen in every category.

[mehyaM24]

Pippen was more intelligent, fluid, technical and skilled
Lebron was more powerful and explosive

astute observations. great post bro.

if you had to build your teams PASSING around one or the other - who would it be?

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Bran is better than Pippen in every category.
If u think Lebron is a better defender than Pippen youre a retard

[305Baller]

If u think Lebron is a better defender than Pippen youre a retard

call me retarded.

[r0drig0lac]

call me retarded.
:lol

[juju151111]

assist numbers =/= lead playmaker. now scram, mythologist. :lol
You the one who brought up peak asts dumb****. Mj was the playmaker during the playoffs. Especially in their first chip run where he avgered 11 asts in the finals. Go sit down lebrick lover

[mehyaM24]

Pip better passer than MJ?

:lol

More wiling sure.

His primary role was to set up the offense. He couldn't create like MJ did, he didn't have MJ's court vision and timing.

A better comparison would be Odom and Pip.

Hell, to be honest I don't even know if I'd take Pip as the second best passer on the Bulls team. Kukoc had better instincts, timing and vision, so perhaps Odom and Kukoc comparison would be more suitable.

Bron>>>>> Pip

Bron better vision, timing, and could most def create better.

Some will interpret this as hating Pip or underrating him, but just putting shit in perspective.

Pip was a great all around player. But was usually 2nd tier when compared to other greats.

And no shit Pip was a better player then Kukoc. But Kukoc was special in his passing abilities, a unique 6'10 passer a la Magic. But Pip was basically superior in every other aspect and as a player all around in general.

Go ahead... let it begin.

eh, i dont agree with your jordan centric views, but you are right - lebron has better vision, in part because of his athleticism. he plays the game at an incredibly fast pace - but to him, everything is in slow motion. he makes the game look THAT easy.

here's a great clip on pippen leading the bulls to the 92 title:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irXI5xtGXag

bulls are struggling, so phil decides to put jordan on the bench while pippen leads the bulls on a furious comeback, putting the game away and securing another title

leadership. poise. grit. pippen was a fine captain :applause:

[Smoke117]

call me retarded.

You're retarded. De nada.

[andgar923]

eh, i dont agree with your jordan centric views, but you are right - lebron has better vision, in part because of his athleticism. he plays the game at an incredibly fast pace - but to him, everything is in slow motion. he makes the game look THAT easy.

here's a great clip on pippen leading the bulls to the 92 title:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irXI5xtGXag

bulls are struggling, so phil decides to put jordan on the bench while pippen leads the bulls on a furious comeback, putting the game away and securing another title

leadership. poise. grit. pippen was a fine captain :applause:

Dat poise, grit, leadership

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NSpgbPcxoU&channel=pnsin

What a fine captain. :bowdown: :applause: :rockon:
























:roll: :roll:

[305Baller]

You're retarded. De nada.

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/fb/fb4821a55878e400ce303c79cd0aff6a97bc6ac5e61181e759 8338deff5bc8f5.jpg

[oarabbus]

Pippen was more intelligent, fluid, technical and skilled
Lebron was more powerful and explosive


I dunno about THAT...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooEELfpn2C8

Pippen has fluidity over Bron, maybe, and that's about it. LeBron just a higher caliber player than Pippen.

[c5terror]

Pippen.
98% of Lebron pass were bail out pass.
also

Pippen>Lebron as a defender by a light years.
Pippen>Lebron in rebound. See their offensive rebound. Most of lebrons rebound were products of him stat padding defensive rebound.
Pippen>Lebron as a leader. Remember Pippen was also a leader on their 2nd 3peat.

Pippen>Lebron bad ass dunk. Lebron afraid of contact to dunk, pippen own his ass in this category.:oldlol:

[Kvnzhangyay]

Pippen.
98% of Lebron pass were bail out pass.
also

Pippen>Lebron as a defender by a light years.
Pippen>Lebron in rebound. See their offensive rebound. Most of lebrons rebound were products of him stat padding defensive rebound.
Pippen>Lebron as a leader. Remember Pippen was also a leader on their 2nd 3peat.

Pippen>Lebron bad ass dunk. Lebron afraid of contact to dunk, pippen own his ass in this category.:oldlol:

I don't think you've watched Pippen if you are serious about this

[Asukal]

Agendas agendas. :rolleyes:

Ok I'll play along. Pippen >>>>>>>> Bran. It's not even close. :oldlol:

Bran is the most overrated star in NBA history and if that's not bad enough his stans are all retards. :facepalm

[pauk]

Between these players there is only two departments you can more reasonably debate about and that is defense & rebounding.... i always liked Pippen's game and Lebron is of that breed, but really, unfortunately, he is better, much better when it comes to especially offense (scoring, shooting, passing, etc. etc.), simply just offense in any of its facets is not something Pippen has a strong case for being identical at unfortunately... and especially not better at.... The only one(s) who would say otherwise would be Lebron cynics (like some posters above me for example)....

[TheMan]

Seems that the OP is ISH's official Pippen overrater in a mad desperate attempt to take some shine off of the GOAT. The way he describes Pippen, he should easily be a shoo in for top 10 GOAT but wait, as great as Pip was, does anyone actually have him seriously ranked that high? I'm a huge Pippen fan but I'd be hardpressed to place him top 20, let alone top 10. Also, I love how the retarded OP tries to pass Pippen off as the Bulls leader when anyone who watched those Bulls as many of us have as well as I did, know MJ was unquestionably the Bulls leader, Pippen has always acknowledged this fact.

One last thing, OP basically equates LeBron to a fringe top 20-25 player, so can we interpret this as saying LeBron is in that 2nd tier level as well? OP is by all accounts making the argument that Pippen and LeBron are nearly in the same level so how can we make an argument for LeBron being anywhere close to top 10 by OP's standards :confusedshrug:

[Asukal]

Between these players there is only two departments you can more reasonably debate about and that is defense & rebounding.... i always liked Pippen's game and Lebron is of that breed, but really, unfortunately, he is better, much better when it comes to especially offense (scoring, shooting, passing, etc. etc.), simply just offense in any of its facets is not something Pippen has a strong case for being identical at unfortunately... and especially not better at.... The only one(s) who would say otherwise would be Lebron cynics (like some posters above me for example)....

Why are you here posting? Go finish that flop video. Until then STFU pauk! :pimp:

[Asukal]

Seems that the OP is ISH's official Pippen overrater in a mad desperate attempt to take some shine off of the GOAT. The way he describes Pippen, he should easily be a shoo in for top 10 GOAT but wait, as great as Pip was, does anyone actually have him seriously ranked that high? I'm a huge Pippen fan but I'd be hardpressed to place him top 20, let alone top 10. Also, I love how the retarded OP tries to pass Pippen off as the Bulls leader when anyone who watched those Bulls as many of us have as well as I did, know MJ was unquestionably the Bulls leader, Pippen has always acknowledged this fact.

One last thing, OP basically equates LeBron to a fringe top 20-25 player, so can we interpret this as saying LeBron is in that 2nd tier level as well? OP is by all accounts making the argument that Pippen and LeBron are nearly in the same level so how can we make an argument for LeBron being anywhere close to top 10 by OP's standards :confusedshrug:

OP equates playmaker to team leader which Pippen isn't.

[c5terror]

Between these players there is only two departments you can more reasonably debate about and that is defense & rebounding.... i always liked Pippen's game and Lebron is of that breed, but really, unfortunately, he is better, much better when it comes to especially offense (scoring, shooting, passing, etc. etc.), simply just offense in any of its facets is not something Pippen has a strong case for being identical at unfortunately... and especially not better at.... The only one(s) who would say otherwise would be Lebron cynics (like some posters above me for example)....

2 question.

How can you debate for defense category if lebron is getting destroy by barea, marion,terry,nowitzki,duncan,mills,green,parker,bo nners and etc.

and what's worse is he admited it.

Lebron james to Bosh It's not allen's fault, it was me who got destroy and embarrassed by a midget bench patty mills.

How can you debate for Rebounding category if Lebron entire offensive rebound is far less than Michael Jordan offensive rebound in MJs first 9 years in the league and Pippen is twice the rebounder MJ is?
Goes to show you that Lebron were just statpadding defensive rebound his entire career especially during garbage time.

[mehyaM24]

Seems that the OP is ISH's official Pippen overrater in a mad desperate attempt to take some shine off of the GOAT. The way he describes Pippen, he should easily be a shoo in for top 10 GOAT but wait, as great as Pip was, does anyone actually have him seriously ranked that high? I'm a huge Pippen fan but I'd be hardpressed to place him top 20, let alone top 10. Also, I love how the retarded OP tries to pass Pippen off as the Bulls leader when anyone who watched those Bulls as many of us have as well as I did, know MJ was unquestionably the Bulls leader, Pippen has always acknowledged this fact.

One last thing, OP basically equates LeBron to a fringe top 20-25 player, so can we interpret this as saying LeBron is in that 2nd tier level as well? OP is by all accounts making the argument that Pippen and LeBron are nearly in the same level so how can we make an argument for LeBron being anywhere close to top 10 by OP's standards :confusedshrug:

relax. im just the messenger repeating verbatim what phil jackson and johnny bach have said in MULTIPLE books that were released AFTER the fact.

it comes down to this: do you take pippen's efficient passing and vision or lebron's superior athleticism and free style creativity?

this is a great comparison because we've seen pippen without phil's coaching - and he's had success unlike jordan (1-9 in the postseason without pippen/phil - hence his anointed leadership).

pippen basically led the blazers to the conference finals. making everyone around him better, instilling championship aspirations and pedigree.

of course - its not ALL about titles. that is only ONE part of the argument. lebron's talent and ability alone to take a bunch of 'scrubs' deep into the postseason should NOT be looked down upon - but rather celebrated. i mean, just think about it. lebron took a team to the finals that had MIKE BROWN coaching and MO WILLIAMS starting (in fact, he was their second best player). this feat is nothing short of amazing - and to some degree - more impressive than any of the lebron-led title runs in southbeach.

you ask, "but mehyaM, how do i measure passing?" its pretty simple actually:

less turnovers + efficient passing + skills (getting a pass off from a semingly closed off angle) + assist/turnover ratio + assists per game + how their passing make the players around them better

i look at EVERYTHING - i expect no less from you and other posters.

[Sarcastic]

Pippen was the 4th maybe 5th best player on that Portland team. Smith, Wallace, and Sabonis were all clearly better. Pippen was fighting with the great Damon Stoudemire for the 4th and 5th position on that team.

They were also in the WCF the year before Pippen joined them. He didn't carry them anywhere.

[kurple]

pre-injury Grant Hill

[mehyaM24]

Pippen was the 4th maybe 5th best player on that Portland team. Smith, Wallace, and Sabonis were all clearly better. Pippen was fighting with the great Damon Stoudemire for the 4th and 5th position on that team.

They were also in the WCF the year before Pippen joined them. He didn't carry them anywhere.

not the best idea to compare a lockout season to a full 82 gm schedule - where the blazers were very CLEARLY one of, if not the lead candidate to WIN a title.

by all accounts - pippen was the leader and best player of the team. make no mistake about it.

when the going got tough - pippen was the one who shined:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kbPUxxNgDI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LP-j2EGnK6E

^^^^^this isn't really the point of the thread, however, so i will refrain from engaging you on this particular topic.

in the meantime, i implore you to watch these fantastic *gifs - pippen's playmaking is on full display:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/pippentoharper-54425555527c8.gif
http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/pippentorodman2-544257690f427.gif
http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/pippentoarmstrong-54425854a0efb.gif

^here we see NOT ONLY great vision, but incredible effectiveness as well. i dont know. im kind of leaning towards scottie.

[mehyaM24]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/pippenFASTBALL-54426263362f7.gif
http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/pipvsdallas-544264e59f532.gif
:bowdown:
http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/pippentokukoc-544263a2a7eee.gif

^^^^^^^will archive these for my next thread. pippen's playmaking is TRULY unappreciated

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Gotta admit, those are sick gifs of Pippen.

That behind the back, no-look pass against NY doe :wtf:

[Hoopz2332]

Lebron but Pippen is closer to having Lebron-like passing skills than Jordan. These gifs are:eek:

[3ball]

both players are similar in that they play the primary ballhandler, ball-dominant role on their team.

the assists per game range for the top 50 ball-dominators in 2014 was 4 to 11, so 5+ assists is completely standard.

but this one is lebron easily.. lebron is a little like MJ here in that his far superior scoring compared to pippen's, enhances his passing game to a level pippen's could never reach.

[mehyaM24]

both players are similar in that they play the primary ballhandler, ball-dominant role on their team.

the assists per game range for the top 50 ball-dominators in 2014 was 4 to 11, so 5+ assists is completely standard.

but this one is lebron easily.. lebron is a little like MJ here in that his far superior scoring compared to pippen's, enhances his passing game to a level pippen's could never reach.

not a bad post, but a few corrections:

1) pippen and lebron both play (or played) in highly structured offenses that preached BALL MOVEMENT. there is no ball stopper or your ordinary point guard holding the ball for long possessions and racking up assists. the gifs posted of pippen, as well as the ones posted of lebron IOT, are purely instinctive - but also within the team offense. THIS IS KEY.

2) being a better scorer allows you to become a better playmaker - not a passer though. scottie is unique in that, he was NOT ONLY the bulls' best best and SOLE playmaker, but their best passer for all of their championships.

the comparison is fascinating because both lebron and pippen play so much alike.

[mehyaM24]

both players are similar in that they play the primary ballhandler, ball-dominant role on their team.

the assists per game range for the top 50 ball-dominators in 2014 was 4 to 11, so 5+ assists is completely standard.

but this one is lebron easily.. lebron is a little like MJ here in that his far superior scoring compared to pippen's, enhances his passing game to a level pippen's could never reach.

not a bad post, just a few things:

1) pippen and lebron both played in highly structured offenses - offenses that demand BALL MOVEMENT. unlike most designed systems, the bulls didn't have your ordinary point guard holding the ball for long possessions, racking up assists (no ball stoppers basically). the gifs posted of pippen, as well as the ones posted of lebron IOT, show passes that are purely instinctive - but also within the team offense. THIS IS KEY.

2) being a better scorer allows you to evolve into a better playmaker - not always a better passer though. scottie is unique in that, he was NOT ONLY the bulls' best (and exclusive) playmaker, but their best passer too. for all of their championships.

the comparison is fascinating because both lebron and pippen play so much alike.

[Hoopz2332]

what happened to the Pippen highlights thread?

[bizil]

When it comes to non PG's passers, Bird is the only one that I would argue over Lebron. MJ in my book is close, but I prefer Bron's pass first approach over MJ. Pippen I would say is in the top 10 of all time for non PG passers so he's great at it as well. But Bron and Bird have an imagination and vision that Pippen can't quite complete with. Even though Pippen is a pass first player and capable of getting u 7 dimes a night. But to Pip's defense, I never known any players to get really high assist numbers (8 dimes and up) in the triangle. When Jordan averaged 8 dimes in a year, that was when Doug Collins was the coach and the Bulls weren't running the triangle. But with that said I gotta take Bron over Pip passing the rock.

[russwest0]

The one that didn't get 4 turnovers a game just to reach 6 assists per game.

[riseagainst]

The one that didn't get 4 turnovers a game just to reach 6 assists per game.


this.

People don't get that being a threat to score/scoring at will also has a huge impact on your playmaking ability.

[bizil]

this.

People don't get that being a threat to score/scoring at will also has a huge impact on your playmaking ability.

I agree! If u look at the perimeter players in the top 10 GOAT like MJ, Magic, Kobe, Bron, and Bird ALL were great scorers and passers. Magic and Bron were more pass first while MJ and Kobe were more score first. And Bird blended to two so great it's hard to tell if he was score first or pass first. But even from there, legends like West, Big O, Hondo, Wade, Isiah, Barry, Frazier, Payton, Pistol Pete, Iverson, Drexler, and Tiny are all great scorers and passers in one. Pip as great as he was wasn't on that kind of level. He was a great passer BUT wasn't an alpha dog player like the other legends I just named.

In today's game, u got Bron and CP3 for sure who are pass first players who can dominate scoring. Which is a stark contrast to the eras in the past. U simply don't have as many pass first players who can also dominate scoring. However, u have A MULTITUDE of guys who are score first players but are also great passers (great passers more in the SG or combo guard sense of course) such as Curry, Parker, Westbrook, Rose, Harden, etc. And of course Kobe and Wade assuming they can come back strong.

[bizil]

But if anything, U gotta give Pip credit for really revolutionizing the SF position. He took Hondo's all around ability and combined with Dr. J's size and freak athletic ability. However, Pip also had the handle and pace of the best PG's in his game too. And would bring up the rock like a PG and run the fast break too. This style of point forward was different that other SF's with great passing and PG style vision such as Hondo, Barry, and Bird. But I think Hondo's style of point forward or SF was the closest to what Pippen did later on.

[bizil]

pre-injury Grant Hill

Hill was definitely in that realm no doubt! I think he was like a mix of Pip's point forward skillset with Dr. J's alpha dog stuff and freak athletic ability. But Hill didn't get to exhibit it as long. But thankfully Bron came through to take what G Hill was doing to epic heights! However it's a shame because Hill was the bridge between Pip and Bron. We saw some great Hill vs. Pip battles but we were all robbed of some great Hill vs. Bron battles.