If Dallas win it all this season, is Dirk top 10 all time?

[masonanddixon]

Right now I have him in the 15-20 range, but I am thinking he could displace Hakeem is he wins one more.

[JT123]

If Dirk carries the team throughout the playoffs and is without question the main reason the Mavs win, then sure. I don't see this happening though. The Mavs CAN win the title this year, but if they do Dirk will likely be playing a similar role to the one Duncan played in these last Finals. Players don't move up my all time list for winning "along for the ride" rings.

[masonanddixon]

If Dirk carries the team throughout the playoffs and is without question the main reason the Mavs win, then sure. I don't see this happening though. The Mavs CAN win the title this year, but if they do Dirk will likely be playing a similar role to the one Duncan played in these last Finals. Players don't move up my all time list for winning "along for the ride" rings.

Yeah I don't think he can win as the undisputed best player anymore. He will need to be a 1a/1b guy with Monta, or more likely, the 2nd option.

[Phantom84]

I still can't get over Dirk losing to an 8 seed Warrior. Don't know how I will place him in the top ten unless he win at least two more rings as the main man.

[navy]

Depends on his performance. The answer is still probably no.

Doesnt have the accolades/stats with only two rings and a failed mvp season.

[Cocaine80s]

I'd put him at #10 pushing Kobe out

[Sarcastic]

He might make top 20. He has zero case for top 10.

[Milbuck]

He might make top 20. He has zero case for top 10.
Who is in your 11-20 range ahead of Dirk?

[Sarcastic]

In no particular order:

Garnett
Barkley
Malone
Oscar
Baylor
West
Isiah
Dr J
Moses
Mikan

[masonanddixon]

In no particular order:

Garnett
Barkley
Malone
Oscar
Baylor
West
Isiah
Dr J
Moses
Mikan

Dirk is already better than Garnett, Barkley, isaiah, and Malone

[Sarcastic]

Dirk is already better than Garnett, Barkley, isaiah, and Malone


Why, because Lebron tanked a title for him so Wade wouldn't win FMVP? Wade was the best player in that series.

Dirk isn't even a better basketball player than guys like Robinson and Ewing, but he has more accolades due to a weak era, so he gets placed above them.

[masonanddixon]

Why, because Lebron tanked a title for him so Wade wouldn't win FMVP? Wade was the best player in that series.

Dirk isn't even a better basketball player than guys like Robinson and Ewing, but he has more accolades due to a weak era, so he gets placed above them.

Is this a joke? You're trolling the hell out of me!

[Sarcastic]

Dirk has literally no shot at top 10. Absolute zero.

[Sarcastic]

And people that have actually watched basketball for a long time would have absolutely no problem with the players I listed in the 11-20 range. Those players did absolutely amazing things. Some were actually considered the absolute best player in the league at some point.

Defense does count. Dirk can be debated for top 20, but no case for top 10.

[AintNoSunshine]

Dirk is already better than Garnett, Barkley, isaiah, and Malone


:facepalm Dirk has one great Playoff run out of his entire career and all of a sudden he's god. He isn't better than any of those guys.

[masonanddixon]

:facepalm Dirk has one great Playoff run out of his entire career and all of a sudden he's god. He isn't better than any of those guys.

Yeah the Finals in 05-06 was just decent, oh and 02-03 WCF Finals.

Oh and averaging over 25-10 in the postseason is no big deal either.

[ArbitraryWater]

Hakeem at 10 is too much.


:facepalm Dirk has one great Playoff run out of his entire career and all of a sudden he's god. He isn't better than any of those guys.

Yeah, I mean 2003 never really happened... Or 2006.... Or 2008, 2009, 2010....Or even 2002, 2005.

[SwayDizzle]

no way

[La Frescobaldi]

No way.

[DatAsh]

In no particular order:

Garnett
Barkley
Malone
Oscar
Baylor
West
Isiah
Dr J
Moses
Mikan

Other players outside the top 10 that are still above Dirk in my opinion:
John Havlicek
Bob Pettit
Rick Barry
David Robinson

I'd say Dirk is mid 20s right now.

[SCdac]

What if they lose in the first round again?

2012 - lost 1st round
2013 - missed playoffs
2014 - lost 1st round
2015 - ???

I know that Dirk's playoff win-% is lower than his regular season win-%

Think he's top-25 all time, personally. Which is pretty impressive.

[raiderfan19]

I love dirk but he's not top 10 even if he wins 3 more rings(obviously not gonna happen) that said he's already top 20 and he's ahead of at least Garnett, Barkley, and dr j off of sarcastics list

[ArbitraryWater]

Isiah, Mikan, Barry should never be mentioned above Dirk... ever.

I don't think Baylor is that close either.

[raiderfan19]

Other players outside the top 10 that are still above Dirk in my opinion:
John Havlicek
Bob Pettit
Rick Barry
David Robinson

I'd say Dirk is mid 20s right now.
No issue with Pettit or Barry being above him.

If you are putting drob above him, it's because of what drob could do talent wise not what he actually accomplished and talent wise if that's what you are doing, drob is top ten himself but since you'd never actually do that drob has to be below him too

[DatAsh]

I see no argument for Dirk ever being above Hakeem. They have similar impact offensively, but Hakeem is probably worth 2 Dirks on the defensive end.

[ArbitraryWater]

I see no argument for Dirk ever being above Hakeem. They have similar impact offensively, but Hakeem is probably worth 2 Dirks on the defensive end.

That goes without saying... Which is why the top 10 is locked.

[raiderfan19]

Dirk isn't better than Hakeem. And dirk is my favorite player of all time by a long way.

[DatAsh]

No issue with Pettit or Barry being above him.

If you are putting drob above him, it's because of what drob could do talent wise not what he actually accomplished and talent wise if that's what you are doing, drob is top ten himself but since you'd never actually do that drob has to be below him too

Accomplishments are only there as evidence, they mean nothing to me in and of themselves.

[raiderfan19]

So... Then you have drob over everyone but mj, wilt and Kareem?

[T_L_P]

Have Dirk in my top 15 currently. He wouldn't move into the top 10 if he won. :confusedshrug:

[mehyaM24]

if he were to win it all, again, playing at an elite level - then yes. i would probably have him right at #10. because he isn't a system player, he would definitely be ahead of duncan, although im not sure i would place him over doctor j / oscar.

[pauk]

No, those 10 dudes there right now not only were more prominent (talent/skills, being the best players in the NBA) but would still have more accolades overall, Hakeem aswell due to the defensive hardware.

[HOoopCityJones]

Wait, when was it widely agreed upon that Dirk is better than KG?

[Pointguard]

The 9-11 spot are usually Kobe, Lebron and Hakeem. He has no case on any of them. Dirk's strength is clutch play and playoff play. While 2011 was a great run Hakeem's 2 peat was definitely superior and Hakeem has a lot of other strengths to point to. Lebron and Kobe's resume's are just vastly superior even if Dirk came off like he did in 2011 with another run.

Dirk is in general the highest ranking one dimensional player (in the playoffs he has a second dimension) and he isn't in the same tier as Durant as a scorer. Guys like West, Barry and Isaiah had greater playoff runs and more clutch moments. So moving Dirk up very high is not going to be easy.

[raiderfan19]

Wait, when was it widely agreed upon that Dirk is better than KG?
When people watched basketball

[SCdac]

Wait, when was it widely agreed upon that Dirk is better than KG?

It isn't.

Virtually nothing is "widely agreed upon" in basketball discussion.

There's been 395832 player x vs. player y threads and will probably always be.

Personally I'd take KG. Both got a ring as the head honcho, both had great careers full of ups and downs and unique aspects to their careers.

[Element]

Playing at his current level? He probably makes my Top 15.

[pauk]

The 9-11 spot are usually Kobe, Lebron and Hakeem. He has no case on any of them. Dirk's strength is clutch play and playoff play. While 2011 was a great run Hakeem's 2 peat was definitely superior and Hakeem has a lot of other strengths to point to. Lebron and Kobe's resume's are just vastly superior even if Dirk came off like he did in 2011 with another run.

Dirk is in general the highest ranking one dimensional player (in the playoffs he has a second dimension) and he isn't in the same tier as Durant as a scorer. Guys like West, Barry and Isaiah had greater playoff runs and more clutch moments. So moving Dirk up very high is not going to be easy.

Exactly... and i mean just look at those 10 players in there right now:

Michael Jordan
Bill Russell
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Shaquille O'Neal
LeBron James
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
(to me those bolded are interchangable in order, people rank those 5 in specific order based on what criteria they go after, with a hint of bias, thats it, but if we are gona be perfectly objective its really a draw imo)

Thats the obligatory 10 names Dirk would still have zero case against.... and that top 10 is stacked to hell, once Kobe and now especially Lebron is done with the resumes i think it will be almost impossible for somebody else to get in the Top 10 in the future.... i mean just look at that damn list, it would have to be a reeeeeeeeally ****ing special talent to knock one of those guys out from there in the future..... I really wouldnt be shocked if those 10 names would still be there after 100 years, thats how good it is.......

Then you have Hakeem Olajuwon at #11 literally guarding the entrance to top 10.... backed up by Moses Malone, followed by Jerry West, Julius Erving....

.....and last but not least Oscar Robertson, who is the toughest player for me to rank in NBA history...... i mean you could actually even argue him being a top 10 player depending on how much you value the fact that he might actually been the most talented/skilled allround individual baller in NBA history or simply throw him out of there if you think "Meh, weak era".....

[DatAsh]

So... Then you have drob over everyone but mj, wilt and Kareem?

No, not at all. Jordan and Russell are my top 2, then Wilt and Kareem.

[raiderfan19]

It isn't.

Virtually nothing is "widely agreed upon" in basketball discussion.

There's been 395832 player x vs. player y threads and will probably always be.

Personally I'd take KG. Both got a ring as the head honcho, both had great careers full of ups and downs and unique aspects to their careers.
Difference is there is a legit argument that kg wasn't the best player on his title team, no such argument exists for dirk who has been far and away the best player on his team since 2001

[tpols]

Difference is there is a legit argument that kg wasn't the best player on his title team, no such argument exists for dirk who has been far and away the best player on his team since 2001

Unless youre just looking at regular season ppg.. there really isnt at all.

KG finished 3rd in MVP voting(while ray and paul went unvoted).. has pierce and allen beat by a mile in every advanced stat in the playoffs, and QB'd a legendary defense while still leading his team in playoff points and rebounds.. theres really no case any player on his team was even close to him.

[Smoke117]

Difference is there is a legit argument that kg wasn't the best player on his title team, no such argument exists for dirk who has been far and away the best player on his team since 2001

No, there isn't.

[backb0ard]

I'm sure KG was undisputably the best player in that championship team, look at his finals MVP....

oh wait....

[tpols]

I'm sure KG was undisputably the best player in that championship team, look at his finals MVP....

oh wait....

ur right.. Media award for 6 games > whole season and playoffs combined

Cedric Maxwell > Larry Bird
James worthy > Magic Johnson
Tony Parker > Tim Duncan

[mehyaM24]

Wait, when was it widely agreed upon that Dirk is better than KG?
its definitely arguable right now - but if dirk were to win another title (playing at an elite level)..? i mean, how could you argue the two? of course - you would be pressed to find an argument for kg, but at least he would be closer than say, duncan, who is a cripple under pressure and has been systemically enriched with the spurs.

kg has done it all - internationally, changing the culture of two franchises etc - so again, i could see why people would have a tough time giving dirk the nod.

[mehyaM24]

I'm sure KG was undisputably the best player in that championship team, look at his finals MVP....

oh wait....

ehh, if kg were with SA, he would have a number of FMVP - and they would have equal or better success. lets not get carried away..

[Nowitness]

its definitely arguable right now - but if dirk were to win another title (playing at an elite level)..? i mean, how could you argue the two? of course - you would be pressed to find an argument for kg, but at least he would be closer than say, duncan, who is a cripple under pressure and has been systemically enriched with the spurs.

kg has done it all - internationally, changing the culture of two franchises etc - so again, i could see why people would have a tough time giving dirk the nod.

how long have you watched basketball?? people always used to get on kg for not being clutch and choking under the pressure, not even wanting the ball in big moments.

man :facepalm

[mehyaM24]

how long have you watched basketball?? people always used to get on kg for not being clutch and choking under the pressure, not even wanting the ball in big moments.

man :facepalm
kg had his share of bad moments, dont think i've said otherwise.

thing is, i trust him - and dirk - more than i do a system player. no doubt about it.

[JellyBean]

:facepalm No. If the Mavs win it all, which I really doubt happens, it would not push Dirk into the top 10 of all time.

[DirkNowitzki41]

:facepalm Dirk has one great Playoff run out of his entire career and all of a sudden he's god. He isn't better than any of those guys.

are you ****ing stupid?

dirk has one ring, but many great playoff performances. heat fans :oldlol:

dirk is top 20 easy.

[DirkNowitzki41]

What if they lose in the first round again?

2012 - lost 1st round
2013 - missed playoffs
2014 - lost 1st round
2015 - ???

I know that Dirk's playoff win-% is lower than his regular season win-%

Think he's top-25 all time, personally. Which is pretty impressive.

and Duncan has choked how many times in a row before this year? dude plays with 2 other HoFers in their prime and a GOAT coach for his whole career. Not to mention deep squads

give dirk, what Duncan is fortunate to have, and it's a completely different story. give Duncan what dirk has, and timmy ends up with 0 rings most likely.

[SCdac]

and Duncan has choked how many times in a row before this year? dude plays with 2 other HoFers in their prime and a GOAT coach for his whole career. Not to mention deep squads

give dirk, what Duncan is fortunate to have, and it's a completely different story. give Duncan what dirk has, and timmy ends up with 0 rings most likely.

Eh, Defense in SA would suck massively with Dirk trying to hold it down (Duncan is amazing defender, one of the best ever). Dirk + Rasho Nesterovic front court for instance is scaring nobody. Duncan won his first championship/Finals MVP in his second season and he was NBA ready right out of the gate, Dirk won his only championship 10+ years into his career after Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, etc., had largely simmered down.

Duncan >>>> Dirk

[tpols]

Eh, Defense in SA would suck massively with Dirk trying to hold it down (Duncan is amazing defender, one of the best ever). Dirk + Rasho Nesterovic front court for instance is scaring nobody. Duncan won his first championship/Finals MVP in his second season and he was NBA ready right out of the gate, Dirk won his only championship 10+ years into his career after Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, etc., had largely simmered down.

Duncan >>>> Dirk

Yea but Dirk/Parker/Manu would be one of the greatest offensive trios ever.. and 05-present they would win a handful of titles.

[Real14]

If Dirk carries the team throughout the playoffs and is without question the main reason the Mavs win, then sure. I don't see this happening though. The Mavs CAN win the title this year, but if they do Dirk will likely be playing a similar role to the one Duncan played in these last Finals. Players don't move up my all time list for winning "along for the ride" rings.
REPORTED FOR LACK OF KNOWLEDGE AND PHYSICAL BLINDNESS.

[SCdac]

Yea but Dirk/Parker/Manu would be one of the greatest offensive trios ever.. and 05-present they would win a handful of titles.

Offense is only half the game... Dirk/Nash/Finley was pretty awesome offensivley too...

[Real14]

I Will say he will be better than hakeem and way above lebronna.

[Nowitness]

and Duncan has choked how many times in a row before this year? dude plays with 2 other HoFers in their prime and a GOAT coach for his whole career. Not to mention deep squads

give dirk, what Duncan is fortunate to have, and it's a completely different story. give Duncan what dirk has, and timmy ends up with 0 rings most likely.

tim duncan wins with tha 2003 dallas squad.

[raiderfan19]

tim duncan wins with tha 2003 dallas squad.
So does a healthy dirk

Edit but Duncan is above dirk historically regardless

[navy]

I Will say he will be better than hakeem and way above lebronna.
:biggums:

[T_L_P]

Yea but Dirk/Parker/Manu would be one of the greatest offensive trios ever.. and 05-present they would win a handful of titles.

Dirk on the Spurs wins in 2006 (depending on whether Dirk shoots like crap for half the Finals again), and then in 2014. Probably another year in between those, but I'm not sure which one.

The problem is Duncan didn't play with a legit center between Robinson's retirement and Splitter's emergence. The defense would not have been good on those teams, and defense wins championships.

[ArbitraryWater]

Eh, Defense in SA would suck massively with Dirk trying to hold it down (Duncan is amazing defender, one of the best ever). Dirk + Rasho Nesterovic front court for instance is scaring nobody. Duncan won his first championship/Finals MVP in his second season and he was NBA ready right out of the gate, Dirk won his only championship 10+ years into his career after Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, etc., had largely simmered down.

Duncan >>>> Dirk

lol @ your troll ass coming in here initiating shit...

Dirk on the Spurs wins 3+ titles.

[T_L_P]

So does a healthy dirk

Edit but Duncan is above dirk historically regardless

The Spurs were 2-1 with Dirk playing. Doesn't seem likely. :confusedshrug:

[ArbitraryWater]

Dirk on the Spurs wins in 2006 (depending on whether Dirk shoots like crap for half the Finals again), and then in 2014. Probably another year in between those, but I'm not sure which one.

The problem is Duncan didn't play with a legit center between Robinson's retirement and before Splitter's emergence. The defense would not have been good on those teams, and defense wins championships.

Dirk wins: 2006, 2007, 2011, 2014...

Not sure about 2009, 2010, 2012, 2013... But like with Duncan, they contend most years... Lets not forget Duncan hasn't really been a superior player than Dirk since '06 except for maybe 2007, 2013.

[navy]

Dirk wins: 2006, 2007, 2011, 2013, 2014...

:biggums:

So Dirk is the GOAT?

[ArbitraryWater]

:biggums:

So Dirk is the GOAT?

Sorry I don't value players by ring counting.. Go ahead and do that, though.

[tpols]

Offense is only half the game... Dirk/Nash/Finley was pretty awesome offensivley too...

Yea and if dirk had nash in 06 I dont think they wouldve ever lost.. same for 07 and they would be serious contenders through 2010.

Dirk post-05 has been > Duncan post-05 til this present moment especially for a big stretch between 2009ish to his resurgence in 2013.. and the spurs have been seriously stacked that whole time.

[SCdac]

lol @ your troll ass coming in here initiating shit...

Dirk on the Spurs wins 3+ titles.

Agree to diisagree.

Spurs through the majority of their champ teams (and arguably 2014 also) are a team with a defensive identity through and through (very low scoring teams), and building an elite defensive team around Dirk takes more money than Peter Holt, RC Buford, and Popovich are probably willing/able to spend in SA's market. (Mavs go over the cap, what every season?)

Duncan's combined defense and offense is absolutely instrumental to the Spurs success and identity and has catapulted him into the top-10 players ever out of literally thousands of players. Just don't see Dirk filling in for that, y'all are over simplifying it and probably forgetting how amazing prime Tim Duncan was.

[Real14]

:biggums:
:confusedshrug:

[T_L_P]

Dirk wins: 2006, 2007, 2011, 2013 (?), 2014...

2007 is a no. Dirk would have lead the Spurs to the 1st seed so he still would have had his collapse. 2011 seems unlikely since the Spurs were just the 11th rated defense with Duncan and thus wouldn't have been a top 15 defense with Dirk (who's the last champion to not be a top 15 defense?) and Duncan was clearly better than Dirk in 2013 and the Spurs still didn't win.

2007 is actually conceivable I guess since Dirk's performance was a bit of an anomaly. Still, GS were a horrible matchup for Dirk so he may have had a similar performance.

[ArbitraryWater]

Agree to diisagree.

Spurs through the majority of their champ teams (and arguably 2014 also) are a team with a defensive identity through and through (very low scoring teams), and building an elite defensive team around Dirk takes more money than Peter Holt, RC Buford, and Popovich are probably willing/able to spend in SA's market. (Mavs go over the cap, what every season?)

Duncan's combined defense and offense is absolutely instrumental to the Spurs success and identity and has catapulted him into the top-10 players ever out of literally thousands of players. Just don't see Dirk filling in for that, y'all are over simplifying it and probably forgetting how amazing prime Tim Duncan was.


I think y'all over making it harder than it is...

Since 2006, name all seasons Duncan has been superior than Dirk.

I got: POSSIBLY 2007 / 2013.

[navy]

Sorry I don't value players by ring counting.. Go ahead and do that, though.

You are just hurting the case for Dirk if that is the case....

[SCdac]

:biggums:

So Dirk is the GOAT?

This shit laughable. Dirk and Mavs homers for ya....

[ArbitraryWater]

2007 is a no. Dirk would have lead the Spurs to the 1st seed so it still would have had his collapse. 2011 seems unlikely, and Duncan was clearly better than Dirk in 2013 and the Spurs still didn't win.

How is 2011 unlikely playing with a better supporting cast? :oldlol:

Now about 2007, how would the Spurs lose the 1st round? Stop ignoring the obvious gap in supporting cast...

[navy]

:confusedshrug:

Yall nikkas think Dirk has a case over Hakkeem? :biggums:

http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/n/dirk_nowitzki_vs_hakeem_olajuwon.htm

[ArbitraryWater]

You are just hurting the case for Dirk if that is the case....

What?

Look, let me try to explain this to you:

Spurs = Loaded.

Mavericks = One-Man Team since 2006. (Different now).

Dirk has arguably been a better player than Duncan since 2006 except for '07 and '13... How does that not explain a few titles, most likely in '06 (no brainer), 07, '11 anyway... You want to deny 2011? And quite clearly 2014 as well...

I mean, those are OBVIOUS.

[ArbitraryWater]

Yall nikkas think Dirk has a case over Hakkeem? :biggums:

http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/n/dirk_nowitzki_vs_hakeem_olajuwon.htm

Its Real14, he has LeBron outside his top 10 players of the 2000's or 2010's... Why are you talking to a troll?

[mehyaM24]

there is a serious lack of basketball iq on ISH.

dirk has been the better player between the two since 2006-2007. at least. for his entire career, dirk has proven time and again, he can work with different systems, coaches and PGs - unlike duncan, who is really just average outside of pop's system / overseas (evidenced by his Olympic play and international play against euroleague teams).

you give dirk, manu/parker/bowen and pop for 6 or 7 STRAIGHT years - full seasons - and he is winning you 5 titles. AT LEAST. its a no brainer. dirk fits perfectly.

i think kg with pop and the spurs' system is interesting, though. you wanna talk about unstoppable? look no further than a kg/drob tandem. kg/manu/parker/bowen :eek:

[T_L_P]

How is 2011 unlikely playing with a better supporting cast? :oldlol:

Now about 2007, how would the Spurs lose the 1st round? Stop ignoring the obvious gap in supporting cast...

The only year Dirk won was when he was paired with a defensive anchor who could have been DPOY. I'm going by results here because the 2011 Spurs with Dirk would have been a borderline bad defensive team. Basketball isn't a simple case of, "Better talent = title". It's about the fit. Go compare the Spurs' production in the 2011 Playoffs with Dallas'. Then talk about a better cast.

[ArbitraryWater]

there is a serious lack of basketball iq on ISH. dirk has been the better player between the two since 2006-2007. for his entire career, dirk has proved he can work with different systems, coaches and PGs unlike duncan, who is really just average outside of pop's system / overseas (evidenced by his olympic play and international play against euroleague teams).

you give dirk, manu/parker/bowen and pop for 6-7 STRAIGHT years - and he is winning you AT LEAST 5 titles. its a no brainer. he fits perfectly.

i think kg with pop and the spurs' system is interesting, though. you wanna talk about unstoppable? look no further than a kg/drob tandem. kg/manu/parker/bowen :eek:

I don't think its that extreme, but you definitely bring up some good and ignored points.

[ArbitraryWater]

The only year Dirk won was when he was paired with a defensive anchor who could have been DPOY. I'm going by results here because the 2011 Spurs with Dirk would have been a borderline bad defensive team. Basketball isn't a simple case of, "Better cast = title" Go compare the Spurs' production in the 2011 Playoffs with Dallas'. Then talk about a better cast.

A 6-game sample for the 2011 Spurs? That's funny...

Because Dirk wouldn't have done better than Duncan's ****ing 13 ppg, right?

[Real14]

Its Real14, he has LeBron outside his top 10 players of the 2000's or 2010's... Why are you talking to a troll?
You are not a troll??:biggums: I didn't had Lebron outside my 2000s and 2010s list either:biggums: :biggums:

[navy]

What?

Look, let me try to explain this to you:

Spurs = Loaded.

Mavericks = One-Man Team since 2006. (Different now).

Dirk has arguably been a better player than Duncan since 2006 except for '07 and '13... How does that not explain a few titles, most likely in '06 (no brainer), 07, '11 anyway... You want to deny 2011? And quite clearly 2014 as well...

I mean, those are OBVIOUS.
....

Yall nikkas and yall one man team bullshit. Let me explain it to you.

11' are you forgetting the performances of JJ barea, Jason terry, Jason Kidd, Chandler, Marion, etc. Remember the 3 point shooting? Was that all Dirk? The defense played? Was that all Dirk? Did you know Jason Terry was outproducing Dirk in the clutch?

What happens when Parker and Ginobli are out there laying eggs like they did the Heat in 2013 in 2011? You just extrapolating performances?

[Real14]

Yall nikkas think Dirk has a case over Hakkeem? :biggums:

http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/n/dirk_nowitzki_vs_hakeem_olajuwon.htm

Hakeem got lucky in 94 because of starks. Dirk defeated the Miami cheat and if he wins in 2015 that will be even more better for him.

[Milbuck]

....

Yall nikkas and yall one man team bullshit. Let me explain it to you.

11' are you forgetting the performances of JJ barea, Jason terry, Jason Kidd, Chandler, Marion, etc. Remember the 3 point shooting? Was that all Dirk? The defense played? Was that all Dirk? Did you know Jason Terry was outproducing Dirk in the clutch?

What happens when Parker and Ginobli are out there laying eggs like they did the Heat in 2013 in 2011? You just extrapolating performances?
Dirk put up 27/8/3/1/1 on 58% TS against the Blazers, 25/9/3/1/1 on 67% TS against the Lakers, 32/6/3/1/1 on 70% TS in the conference finals, and 26/10/2/1/1 on 54% TS in the finals.

I don't care how "stacked" those 2011 Mavs were, literally no version of Duncan post 2008 is sniffing that production throughout the playoffs or leading them to the chip.

[ArbitraryWater]

Payton disputing Duncan's 2009 all-star selection:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dbzurp7ChFM

Timmy hasn't been that otherworldly since 2008 circa...

He's played well in the system, good defense, able to take off stretches and pop in with 15-17 ppg.... Alot living off the Spurs penetration and outside shooting. Pop has been a master at integrating talent and new players..

But realistically, besides 2013 and perhaps '07, Dirk has been better since 2006. He had his best defensive support in 2011, but that had nothing to do with HIM going to another level... If you check some footage and stats, Dirk played just as well in 2009 and 2010, but for less games/rounds, because the team wasn't as good, mainly defensively... Chandler was all he needed.

But now you add Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, more GOAT like role players, and Pop? Don't act like it doesn't make a difference just because Chandler isn't on the damn team..

[Smoke117]

Hakeem got lucky in 94 because of starks. Dirk defeated the Miami cheat and if he wins in 2015 that will be even more better for him.

It was better when you typed like a moron...at least it was less likely we would actually read what you said.

[mehyaM24]

I don't think its that extreme, but you definitely bring up some good and ignored points.

its called logic. dirk has been better 2 years removed of a decade now. what he's provided >>> what duncan has.

[navy]

Dirk put up 27/8/3/1/1 on 58% TS against the Blazers, 25/9/3/1/1 on 67% TS against the Lakers, 32/6/3/1/1 on 70% TS in the conference finals, and 26/10/2/1/1 on 54% TS in the finals.

I don't care how "stacked" those 2011 Mavs were, literally no version of Duncan post 2008 is sniffing that production throughout the playoffs or leading them to the chip.
I never mentioned the Mavs were stacked, but dont act like he was out there with a bunch of scrubs not doing shit. They were crazy hot in the post season, just as Dirk was.

So how does that in anyway imply that you can move Dirk to another team (Spurs) and he will just still win?

Dude legit had Dirk winning 5 rings in less than a ten year span. That's the GOAT. (2nd to Jordan, but you should get the idea)

And notice I never mentioned Duncan.

[ArbitraryWater]

....

Yall nikkas and yall one man team bullshit. Let me explain it to you.

11' are you forgetting the performances of JJ barea, Jason terry, Jason Kidd, Chandler, Marion, etc. Remember the 3 point shooting? Was that all Dirk? The defense played? Was that all Dirk? Did you know Jason Terry was outproducing Dirk in the clutch?

What happens when Parker and Ginobli are out there laying eggs like they did the Heat in 2013 in 2011? You just extrapolating performances?

Stop with the "Yall nikkas"

You think roughly describing the Mavs as "one-man team" is injustice? To who? Who's his sidekick star?

No one is denying that role players stepped up and the shooting was great... But it was still a marginally weaker cast to other championship teams.

To the bolded: No I didn't.... Probably because he didn't actually do it.

Seriously, your nitpicking is insane... Parker didn't lay shit, but you're now saying "WHAT IF 2013 GINOBILI DOES THAT IN 2011?!" Who would care? What about Danny Green setting a record for most Finals 3's ever? Gary Neal going crazy from beyond the arc? Diaw's versatility? Splitter's defense? Kawhi? Parker playing at MVP CALIBER level?..........

[navy]

Hakeem got lucky in 94 because of starks. Dirk defeated the Miami cheat and if he wins in 2015 that will be even more better for him.
Why do people act like Jordan was about to guard Hakeem, lol. Hakeem was out there beasting and straight up earned those rings. Dirk doesnt compare especially when you factor in the individual defense.

[ArbitraryWater]

I never mentioned the Mavs were stacked, but dont act like he was out there with a bunch of scrubs not doing shit. They were crazy hot in the post season, just as Dirk was.

So how that in anyway imply that you can move Dirk to another team (Spurs) and he will just still win?

Dude legit had Dirk winning 5 rings in less than a ten year span. That's the GOAT. (2nd to Jordan, but you should get the idea)

And notice I never mentioned Duncan.

Nobody is saying he was playing with scrubs... That's a fallacy on your part.

Yes, you still haven't answered why Dirk couldn't win in 2006, 2007, 2011, 2014.. Why not? I explained it.

"That's 2nd to Jordan" ? What do you mean 2nd to Jordan? All-Time? Why? Based on what?

[navy]

Stop with the "Yall nikkas"

You think roughly describing the Mavs as "one-man team" is injustice? To who? Who's his sidekick star?

No one is denying that role players stepped up and the shooting was great... But it was still a marginally weaker cast to other championship teams.

To the bolded: No I didn't.... Probably because he didn't actually do it.

Seriously, your nitpicking is insane... Parker didn't lay shit, but you're now saying "WHAT IF 2013 GINOBILI DOES THAT IN 2011?!" Who would care? What about Danny Green setting a record for most Finals 3's ever? Gary Neal going crazy from beyond the arc? Diaw's versatility? Splitter's defense? Kawhi? Parker playing at MVP CALIBER level?..........

You are mixing up the years. Parker and Ginobli would be on the 2011 Spurs. Those other players would not.

[Milbuck]

I never mentioned the Mavs were stacked, but dont act like he was out there with a bunch of scrubs not doing shit. They were crazy hot in the post season, just as Dirk was.

So how that in anyway imply that you can move Dirk to another team (Spurs) and he will just still win?

Dude legit had Dirk winning 5 rings in less than a ten year span. That's the GOAT. (2nd to Jordan, but you should get the idea)

And notice I never mentioned Duncan.
I never once said the Mavs were or were not stacked. I think they were an extremely well-constructed and balanced roster.

But them getting hot at the right time =/= having a shitton of talent like Manu ****ing Ginobili and Tony Parker + the best the coach ever and several other terrific role players.

And Dirk was without a doubt the best player on that team and playing like a legitimate superstar, far beyond all-star. Something Duncan can't say post-2008.

Also, are we to assume that Dirk's incredible ability to space the floor and create constant mismatches against opposing defenses, coupled with his passing ability, his ability to post up, put the ball on the floor, drop 30 foot bombs, etc. has nothing to do with how well his teammates performed? It's been documented over and over and over again how Dirk is such an unusually high-impact player despite not putting up the huge non-scoring stats that guys like 2004 KG or repeat MVP Duncan did. Are we to say that Dirk didn't elevate his teammates' play any way at all?

2011 Mavs without Dirk: 2-7. They were a well-constructed team..but let's not act like Dirk's impact on that team wasn't incredible.

[navy]

Stop with the "Yall nikkas"

You think roughly describing the Mavs as "one-man team" is injustice? To who? Who's his sidekick star?

No one is denying that role players stepped up and the shooting was great... But it was still a marginally weaker cast to other championship teams.

To the bolded: No I didn't.... Probably because he didn't actually do it.

Seriously, your nitpicking is insane... Parker didn't lay shit, but you're now saying "WHAT IF 2013 GINOBILI DOES THAT IN 2011?!" Who would care? What about Danny Green setting a record for most Finals 3's ever? Gary Neal going crazy from beyond the arc? Diaw's versatility? Splitter's defense? Kawhi? Parker playing at MVP CALIBER level?..........

It was only marginally weaker, if you try to use some form of ABC logic instead of looking at the team as a whole and what everyone brought to the table. Way to simplistic.

Five rings. Do you realize what you are saying? :wtf:

[tpols]

The only year Dirk won was when he was paired with a defensive anchor who could have been DPOY. I'm going by results here because the 2011 Spurs with Dirk would have been a borderline bad defensive team. Basketball isn't a simple case of, "Better talent = title". It's about the fit. Go compare the Spurs' production in the 2011 Playoffs with Dallas'. Then talk about a better cast.

But.. didnt Dirk beat the spurs straight up with erick dampier as his C? And Avery Johnson as his coach? And Jason Terry and Josh Howard as his 2nd/3rd options?


So your logic is if you gave Dirk even better players and coaches he would.. lose?

[Real14]

It was better when you typed like a moron...at least it was less likely we would actually read what you said.
You mad cuz I brought up 2011?:biggums:

[ArbitraryWater]

You are mixing up the years. Parker and Ginobli would be on the 2011 Spurs. Those other players would not.

No, no... Don't even try it.

You said:


What happens when Parker and Ginobli are out there laying eggs like they did the Heat in 2013 in 2011? You just extrapolating performances?


So you're obviously talking about the 2013 team...


It was only marginally weaker, if you try to use some form of ABC logic instead of looking at the team as a whole and what everyone brought to the table. Way to simplistic.

Five rings. Do you realize what you are saying? :wtf:

I'm a bit disappointed by your counting... It's 4.

Now, so far you've facempalmed, wtf'ed, etc posted alot of smileys, but not really give me any reasons to why Dirk shouldn't/wouldn't win on the 2006, 2007, 2011 and 2014 Spurs... Try it? :cheers:

Then again, you still haven't replied to Milbucks post... Or tpols since it fits the same argument.. Nothing more to say?

[TheMarkMadsen]

Hakeem at 10 is too much.



Yeah, I mean 2003 never really happened... Or 2006.... Or 2008, 2009, 2010....Or even 2002, 2005.

:biggums: :biggums:

first and second round losses don't count as "great playoff runs"

[RoundMoundOfReb]

With 1 more he's essentially Hakeem in accolades with less playing ability so i'd say no

[ArbitraryWater]

:biggums: :biggums:

first and second round losses don't count as "great playoff runs"

Wait, are we talking about the Mavericks or Dirk? All I know is that Dirk played great those years... Irrelevant of amount of games.

[navy]

No, no... Don't even try it.

You said:




So you're obviously talking about the 2013 team...



I'm a bit disappointed by your counting... It's 4.

Now, so far you've facempalmed, wtf'ed, etc posted alot of smileys, but not really give me any reasons to why Dirk shouldn't/wouldn't win on the 2006, 2007, 2011 and 2014 Spurs... Try it? :cheers:

Then again, you still haven't replied to Milbucks post... Or tpols since it fits the same argument.. Nothing more to say?

I think you need reading comprehension skills. I said Parker and Ginobli laid an egg in 2013, so what was stopping them from laying an egg in 2011. That means Im talking about Dirk on the 2011 Spurs team with Parker and Ginobli....

You listed earlier 2006,2007, 2011, 2013, 2014. That's five times. Its not my fault you forgot...

I didnt respond, because honestly it was a lengthy tangent to my point. You giving Dirk 5 rings.

Sure nothing more to say.

[Smook A.]

I Will say he will be better than hakeem and way above lebronna.
You really think Dirk will be higher than Hakeem at the end of his career? Wow wtf man.

[Real14]

You really think Dirk will be higher than Hakeem at the end of his career? Wow wtf man.
That's if dirk win title in 2015. People needs to stop overrating hakeem.

[Smook A.]

That's if dirk win title in 2015. People needs to stop overrating hakeem.
How are we overrating Hakeem? He's one of the greatest big men of all time. You're the one underrating him. And lol at the fact that you're saying the title he won in 1994 was "lucky" because of Starks. It happened and he's a champion. It was 20 years ago. Hakeem played like a monster in that series and easily outplayed every guy on the Knicks roster including Patrick Ewing. The Rockets won it fair and square that year so no need to say they were "lucky".

[Real14]

How are we overrating Hakeem? He's one of the greatest big men of all time. You're the one underrating him. And lol at the fact that you're saying the title he won in 1994 was "lucky" because of Starks. It happened and he's a champion. It was 20 years ago. Hakeem played like a monster in that series and easily outplayed every guy on the Knicks roster including Patrick Ewing. The Rockets won it fair and square that year so no need to say they were "lucky".
Like I said, he's overrated. If starks made his threes then ewing and hakeem would be the same. Dirk is underrated because he won a title over one of the most super stacked teams of all time plus he won season mvp. Dirk should have 2 rings already anyway because of 06. If dirk wins in 2015 then he should be above hakeem reguardless of what you think.

[Smook A.]

Like I said, he's overrated. If starks made his threes then ewing and hakeem would be the same. Dirk is underrated because he won a title over one of the most super stacked teams of all time plus he won season mvp. Dirk should have 2 rings already anyway because of 06. If dirk wins in 2015 then he should be above hakeem reguardless of what you think.
What the **** are you on? You're not even explaining why you think he's overrated. For god's sake, Hakeem has 2 DPOY awards, 2 rings, 1 MVP, 2 FMVPs, many all-star appearances and ton of other accolades. Hakeem also has a career average of 22/11/3. He's the all-time blocks leader. Do you know how good of a defensive player he was? He would lock down almost anyone. Also, his offensive game was just so smooth. IMO, he had the best post game of anyone. Hakeem was just so well-rounded. Even if Dirk wins another title, he won't be over Hakeem. Dirk is a better offensive player but that's really all he has over him. Hakeem is a better rebounder, and a way better defender.

Also, look at Hakeem's 94 team. The 2nd best player on that team was Otis Thorpe. The 3rd best player was Vernon Maxwell. Those guys are barely known. The only star on the 93-94 Rockets' team was Hakeem. Without him, the Rockets would have been one of the worst teams in the league at that time. He made a huge impact.

[ArbitraryWater]

I think you need reading comprehension skills. I said Parker and Ginobli laid an egg in 2013, so what was stopping them from laying an egg in 2011. That means Im talking about Dirk on the 2011 Spurs team with Parker and Ginobli....

You listed earlier 2006,2007, 2011, 2013, 2014. That's five times. Its not my fault you forgot...

I didnt respond, because honestly it was a lengthy tangent to my point. You giving Dirk 5 rings.

Sure nothing more to say.


LMFAO... How can you be talking about the 2011, 2011, TWO THOUSAND ELEVEN Spurs, when you are talking about what Ginobili did in 2013, 2013, TWO THOUSAND THIRTEEN..................

And where/when did Parker lay anything in 2013?

Go back and find me listing 2013...

As you know Dirk won in 2011, made the Finals in 2006 only to lose in a highly controversial series, won 67 games with the Nr.1 Record and MVP in 2014, was a better player than Duncan in 2014 who still became Champion on one of the best teams ever...

Quick run down. Any normal fan can see it's not hard to assume Dirk winning in any of these years, on STRONGER teams...

ANYONE. Yet you're acting as if its ludicrous and haven't even made an argument :biggums:

[ArbitraryWater]

What the **** are you on? You're not even explaining why you think he's overrated. For god's sake, Hakeem has 2 DPOY awards, 2 rings, 1 MVP, 2 FMVPs, many all-star appearances and ton of other accolades. Hakeem also has a career average of 22/11/3. He's the all-time blocks leader. Do you know how good of a defensive player he was? He would lock down almost anyone. Also, his offensive was just so smooth. IMO, he had the best post game of anyone. Hakeem was just so well-rounded. Even if Dirk wins another title, he won't be over Hakeem. Dirk is a better offensive player but that's really all he has over him. Hakeem is a better rebounder, and a way better defender.

Also, look at Hakeem's 94 team. The 2nd best player on that team was Otis Thorpe. The 3rd best player was Vernon Maxwell. Those guys are barely known. The only star on the 93-94 Rockets' team was Hakeem. Without him, the Rockets would have been one of the worst teams in the league at that time. He made a huge impact.

Agreed except for that part... But we should ignore Real14 regardless.

[navy]

LMFAO... How can you be talking about the 2011, 2011, TWO THOUSAND ELEVEN Spurs, when you are talking about what Ginobili did in 2013, 2013, TWO THOUSAND THIRTEEN..................

And where/when did Parker lay anything in 2013?

Go back and find me listing 2013.

As you know Dirk won in 2011, made the Finals in 2006, won 67 games and MVP in 2014, was a better player than Duncan in 2014 who became Champion on one of the best teams ever...

Quick run down. Any normal fan can see it's not hard to assume Dirk winning in any of these years, on STRONGER teams...

ANYONE. Yet you're acting as if its ludicrous and haven't even made an argument :biggums:

Hmmm.....This is the last time I'll try to explain this.

Let me try bullet points.
You moved Dirk to the Spurs in replacement of Duncan.
Dirk won a ring in 2011 on the Mavs, so obviously on the Spurs he should win if he played for them in 2011? Right?
I claimed that it was wrong. The 2011 Mavs had things going for them that the Spurs in 2011 may not have had.
Jason Terry outplaying Lebron, well no Jason Terry, we have Parker and Ginobli.
Parker and Ginobli vs the Heat in 2013? Laid eggs.
Parker and Ginobli vs the Heat in 2011 ? Automatically expected to perform? No.
It was an example of something that went right for the Mas, that cant automatically be replaced by moving Dirk to the Spurs.

Here is you listing 2013. Except you edited it out.

Dirk wins: 2006, 2007, 2011, 2014...

Not sure about 2009, 2010, 2012, 2013... But like with Duncan, they contend most years... Lets not forget Duncan hasn't really been a superior player than Dirk since '06 except for maybe 2007, 2013.

Nomatter I quoted you saying it. (Go check my post, it should be nonedited)

:biggums:

So Dirk is the GOAT?
TLP also quoted you saying it, although here there was a question mark.

2007 is a no. {Edited by Navy for space}

Which is why I keep mentioning 5 rings. You listed 5 times you thought Dirk would win in less than a ten year span. That is the GOAT. And by GOAT I mean second after the obvious 6/6.

Dirk being the GOAT is ludicrous to me. Hence the :biggums:

[Milbuck]

First off let me start by saying I don't think Dirk wins 5 rings with the Spurs from 2006 to today..I think 3 is more reasonable, pretty likely in fact. But even if he did win 5, since when does winning 5 rings make you the GOAT? I don't see how that logic was brought up here. Kobe has 5 rings and there's a huge chunk of people who don't have him in the top 10, let alone as the GOAT.

[ArbitraryWater]

Hmmm.....This is the last time I'll try to explain this.

Let me try bullet points.
You moved Dirk to the Spurs in replacement of Duncan.
Dirk won a ring in 2011 on the Mavs, so obviously on the Spurs he should win if he played for them in 2011? Right?
I claimed that it was wrong. The 2011 Mavs had things going for them that the Spurs in 2011 may not have had.
Jason Terry outplaying Lebron, well no Jason Terry, we have Parker and Ginobli.
Parker and Ginobli vs the Heat in 2013? Laid eggs.
Parker and Ginobli vs the Heat in 2011 ? Automatically expected to perform? No.

Here is you listing 2013. Except you edited it out.


Nomatter I quoted you saying it. (Go check my post, it should be nonedited)

TLP also quoted you saying it, although here there was a question mark.


Which is why I keep mentioning 5 rings. You listed 5 times you though Dirk would win in less than a ten year span. That is the GOAT. And by GOAT I mean second after the obvious 6/6.

Dirk being the GOAT is ludicrous to me. Hence the :biggums:

Holy shit... What the hell is this? Okay... Do I need to tell you "Exclude 2013"... Is that it?

I'm talking about FOUR RINGS... Got it?

Nobody is talking about 2013... You can exclude "Ginobili laying an egg"... Saying Parker laid an egg, is again incredibly disrespectful on your part, but expected. And lol at the "Automatically expected to perform?" Yes, I expect top 100 greats (Parker/Manu) to perform... Manu has often been argued as top 50 on here, there's an extra thread for it as well.

I didn't know you were such a shitty clueless ring-counter either... What do you mean "GOAT" Based on ****ing what?

Do you also take into consideration opposition, help, context, MVP's, playoff performance, etc.?

Or is that like ***** a mystery to you?

How would 4 rings equal GOAT or 2nd to MJ or whatever?

Based on RINGS alone, that would place him behind Jordan/Kareem/Russell/Magic/Mikan/Shaq at 7, considering they've all won more and had bigger contributions to their titles. Does your brain grasp this?

So, if, IF, ring-counting REALLY IS, your only criteria... That would put him at 7... But you would be retarded to do so... Which tells me something about your "criteria" is incomplete... Lacking other factors.

He won't magically be a better player than Duncan, Bird, LeBron or Hakeem...

So again, I will repeat myself and continue waiting for you to make your case against the 4 mentioned years.


As you know Dirk won in 2011, made the Finals in 2006, won 67 games and MVP in 2014, was a better player than Duncan in 2014 who became Champion on one of the best teams ever...

Any normal fan can see it's not hard to assume Dirk winning in any of these years, on STRONGER teams...

[tpols]

Parker and Ginobli vs the Heat in 2013? Laid eggs.


Ginobili, yes. Parker? No.

Parker was 30 seconds away and a missed manu/kawhi FT from being the clear cut FMVP.. Parker played very good in that series leading the spurs almost singlehandedly in the clutch in both games 1 and 6.. while Duncan was going scoreless in second halves and missing layups to tie in the final minutes.

now they have Dirk + Parker in the clutch in that scenario. Amazing combo especially considering how clutch dirk was that year..

Youre also leaving out Danny Greens record setting performance, diaws amazing play, and even kawhi's very well rounded play with him beasting on the boards and playing elite defense on lebron. Duncan got more help that year than Dirk did in 2011.

[navy]

First off let me start by saying I don't think Dirk wins 5 rings with the Spurs from 2006 to today..I think 3 is more reasonable, pretty likely in fact. But even if he did win 5, since when does winning 5 rings make you the GOAT? I don't see how that logic was brought up here. Kobe has 5 rings and there's a huge chunk of people who don't have him in the top 10, let alone as the GOAT.
Kobe has the crutch of 3/5 of his rings being won as the second option or at least with another top 10 player who was arguable better/equal. I mean if he had won 5 rings without Shaq 30/10ing to 3 in a row he would be considered the GOAT.

And by Goat I mean 2nd to Jordan. Goat just sounds nicer.

[navy]

Ginobili, yes. Parker? No.

Parker was 30 seconds away and a missed manu/kawhi FT from being the clear cut FMVP.. Parker played very good in that series leading the spurs almost singlehandedly in the clutch in both games 1 and 6.. while Duncan was going scoreless in second halves and missing layups to tie in the final minutes.

now they have Dirk + Parker in the clutch in that scenario. Amazing combo especially considering how clutch dirk was that year..

Youre also leaving out Danny Greens record setting performance, diaws amazing play, and even kawhi's very well rounded play with him beasting on the boards and playing elite defense on lebron. Duncan got more help that year than Dirk did in 2011.

Ill respond to AW later. Maybe.

I never mentioned Duncan. Those players wouldnt be on the 2011 Spurs+ Dirk. Which was my point. Dirk wouldnt have the Mavs important hot three point shooting and defense if he moved teams. He would be on the 2011 Spurs. So he automatically still gets the ring cause he has Parker and Ginobli in 2011 now?

No.

[zoom17]

Dallas Cowboys have a great chance at winning it all




sike

[Milbuck]

Kobe has the crutch of 3/5 of his rings being won as the second option or at least with another top 10 player who was arguable better/equal. I mean if he had won 5 rings without Shaq 30/10ing to 3 in a row he would be considered the GOAT.

And by Goat I mean 2nd to Jordan. Goat just sounds nicer.
And yet he was a 28/7/5/2/1 player for 2 of those 3 championship runs, and an all-star for the 1st one.

Literally every season of both Dirk and Duncan's career would be 2nd fiddle to 3- peat Shaq. Every single one.

My point remains. Kobe winning 5 championships as a player putting up:

23/6/5/2/1 on 55% TS in 1999-00
29/6/5/2/1 on 55% TS in 2000-01
25/6/6/2 on 54% TS in 2001-02
27/6/5/2/1 on 56% TS in 2008-09
27/6/5/2 on 55% TS in 2009-10

..means he's a borderline top 10 player all time, yet Dirk winning 5 while being an inferior player to Kobe in 4 of his 5 chips, every year from 2008 to 2013 except 2011 somehow means Dirk would be 2nd all time?

[navy]

tpols you deleted your post, but I'll still respond. The reason I mentioned (transposed?) 2011 is because that was the year Dirk actually won a ring. And I was explaining how moving him doesnt necessarily guarantee a win again.

2013 is the year the Heat won. AW seems to want to delete this year from his post, but if you want to have the discussion why Dirk wouldnt win in 2013 either, sure.

But nothing I said is really about Duncan, you guys keep bringing him up like I said he was better than Dirk or something.

[navy]

And yet he was a 28/7/5/2/1 player for 2 of those 3 championship runs, and an all-star for the 1st one.

Literally every season of both Dirk and Duncan's career would be 2nd fiddle to 3- peat Shaq. Every single one.

My point remains. Kobe 5 winning championships as a player putting up:

23/6/5/2/1 on 55% TS in 1999-00
29/6/5/2/1 on 55% TS in 2000-01
25/6/6/2 on 54% TS in 2001-02
27/6/5/2/1 on 56% TS in 2008-09
27/6/5/2 on 55% TS in 2009-10

..means he's a borderline top 10 player all time, yet Dirk winning 5 while being an inferior player to Kobe in 4 of his 5 chips, every year from 2008 to 2013 except 2011 somehow means Dirk would be 2nd all time?

:confusedshrug:

You really think if he wasnt with Shaq and he was three peating with those numbers he wouldnt be called the GOAT? Second only to Jordan?

[Milbuck]

Explain to me how Kobe, being a clear-cut superstar and top 5 player for 4 of his 5 championship runs and a 23/6/5 all-star for the other, is somehow a borderline top 10er, while if Dirk wins 5 rings would be the 2nd GOAT.

[ArbitraryWater]

tpols you deleted your post, but I'll still respond. The reason I mentioned (transposed?) 2011 is because that was the year Dirk actually won a ring. And I was explaining how moving him doesnt nesarrily guarentee a win again.

2013 is the year the Heat won. AW seems to want to delete this year from his post, but if you want to have the discussion why Dirk wouldnt win in 2013 either, sure.

But nothing I said is really about Duncan, you guys keep bringing him up like I said he was better than Dirk or something.

Oh really? You're just getting this now? Wow :bowdown:

Anyway, I'll wait for your reply on my post... You'll have to take a bit more than 2 minutes this time. Your shit has more holes than swiss cheese.

[Milbuck]

:confusedshrug: You really think if he wasnt with Shaq and he was three peating with those numbers he wouldnt be called the GOAT? Second only to Jordan?
No he wouldn't because he's still an inferior player to Kareem, Wilt, and Russell. If he wins 5 rings without Shaq he'd be something like #3 or #4 for me.

But are you seriously going to act like Kobe wasn't a legitimate superstar for 4 of his rings and an all-star for the other?

This shit is bordering on the "Shaq carried Kobe" narrative that blatant trolls spit out.

[navy]

Explain to me how Kobe, being a clear-cut superstar and top 5 player for 4 of his 5 championship runs and a 23/6/5 all-star for the other, is somehow a borderline top 10er, while if Dirk wins 5 rings would be the 2nd GOAT.

I already did...

http://d1warraxuf7xh1.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/KobeShaq-300x225.jpg

If Kobe won 5 rings as the man he would be second only to Jordan. If anyone won 5 rings as the man, they would be second to Jordan. Well you got Russell in there, but the idea remains the same.

[navy]

No he wouldn't because he's still an inferior player to Kareem, Wilt, and Russell. If he wins 5 rings without Shaq he'd be something like #3 or #4 for me.

But are you seriously going to act like Kobe wasn't a legitimate superstar for 4 of his rings and an all-star for the other?

This shit is bordering on the "Shaq carried Kobe" narrative that blatant trolls spit out.

I'd have him as second. The same way, Jordan gets the nod over Russel and Wilt. Kareem would be a toss up depending on the person, but outside of message boards Kareem is rarely even placed above Magic. Are you really disputing a 5 time fmvp Kobe being hyped as the GOAT. (2nd) Jordan is the standard.

[tpols]

I'd have him as second. The same way, Jordan gets the nod over Russel and Wilt. Kareem would be a toss up depending on the person, but outside of message boards Kareem is rarely even placed above Magic. Are you really disputing a 5 time fmvp Kobe being hyped as the GOAT. (2nd)

you have a very shallow understanding of GOAT lists.. if Kobe had played with prime jkidd, prime mutumbo, and prime artest.. coached by larry brown, and won 5 rings on those extremely stacked teams because his 25ish ppg in the Finals was higher than those other 3 guys he would somehow be better than when he did the same thing but all 3 of those guys were pretty much rolled into one(shaq) ?

I guess perception > reality.

[Milbuck]

I already did...

http://d1warraxuf7xh1.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/KobeShaq-300x225.jpg

If Kobe won 5 rings as the man he would be second only to Jordan. If anyone won 5 rings as the man, they would be second to Jordan. Well you got Russell in there, but the idea remains the same.
This is an extremely simplistic view.

We can't just look at this in a black and white way as if titles as the man are everything and being #2 is utterly worthless.

Kobe in 2001 put up 32/7/6/2/1 on 58% TS against the WC in the first 3 rounds. Destroyed the 55 win Kings for 35/9/4/1/1 on 59% TS in the 2nd round, then followed it up with 33/7/7/2/1 on 57% TS against Duncan's Spurs in the conference finals. That 2001 run is as impressive as any Duncan championship run except his godly 2003 run.

But because Kobe wasn't the man on his team, somehow it's completely devalued and means less than Paul Pierce's championship as "the guy".

[navy]

Oh really? You're just getting this now? Wow :bowdown:

Anyway, I'll wait for your reply on my post... You'll have to take a bit more than 2 minutes this time. Your shit has more holes than swiss cheese.

The first half of your post is you arguing about 2013, when I already proved you already mentioned it. you delted later, after I started the 5 rings/GOAT talk.

I dont see how anyone winning 5 rings as the man would not be considered the GOAT to be honest. Duncan got his 5th ring and was moved up to 4 on alot of list. Isnt the point that Dirk would be better than him?

[navy]

you have a very shallow understanding of GOAT lists.. if Kobe had played with prime jkidd, prime mutumbo, and prime artest.. coached by larry brown, and won 5 rings on those extremely stacked teams because his 25ish ppg in the Finals was higher than those other 3 guys he would somehow be better than when he did the same thing but all 3 of those guys were pretty much rolled into one(shaq) ?

I guess perception > reality.

Im not sure, what you are trying to say.....you really think Kobe wouldnt be considered the second best of all time with 5 FMVPS? What the hell? Im not even a Kobe stan, and even I can see that it is true. You already got people claiming he was just as good as Jordan.

In anycase, the criteria for GOAT list isnt set in stone. Im talking about the general public perception. There I incorporated your word.

Kobe with 5FMVP is second to Jordan.

[Milbuck]

Im not sure, what you are trying to say.....you really think Kobe wouldnt be considered the second best of all time with 5 FMVPS? What the hell? Im not even a Kobe stan, and even I can see that it is true. You already got people claiming he was just as good as Jordan.

In anycase, the criteria for GOAT list isnt set in stone. Im talking about the general public perception. There I incorporated your word.

Kobe with 5FMVP is second to Jordan.
Uhh who?

[tpols]

Im not sure, what you are trying to say.....you really think Kobe wouldnt be considered the second best of all time with 5 FMVPS? What the hell? Im not even a Kobe stan, and even I can see that it is true. You already got people claiming he was just as good as Jordan.

In anycase, the criteria for GOAT list isnt set in stone. Im talking about the general public perception. There I incorporated your word.

Kobe with 5FMVP is second to Jordan.

If FMVPs are your sole criteria that statement is false.. as Bill Russell would have 9 or 10 FMVPs if the award existed in his day(its not called the Bill Russell FMVP trophy for nothing).

And I like to look at impact on the way to rings.. I dont really care if someone doesnt win it as long as they had tremendous impact along the way.. its a 4-7 game media award.

[navy]

This is an extremely simplistic view.

We can't just look at this in a black and white way as if titles as the man are everything and being #2 is utterly worthless.

Kobe in 2001 put up 32/7/6/2/1 on 58% TS against the WC in the first 3 rounds. Destroyed the 55 win Kings for 35/9/4/1/1 on 59% TS in the 2nd round, then followed it up with 33/7/7/2/1 on 57% TS against Duncan's Spurs in the conference finals. That 2001 run is as impressive as any Duncan championship run except his godly 2003 run.

But because Kobe wasn't the man on his team, somehow it's completely devalued and means less than Paul Pierce's championship as "the guy".

Im not really debating this. My point is that Kobe with 5 FMVP would be considered the GOAT(2nd) by most. Not borderline top 10 like he is now.

[navy]

Uhh who?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVEk7V7sqyA

[navy]

If FMVPs are your sole criteria that statement is false.. as Bill Russell would have 9 or 10 FMVPs if the award existed in his day(its not called the Bill Russell FMVP trophy for nothing).

And I like to look at impact on the way to rings.. I dont really care if someone doesnt win it as long as they had tremendous impact along the way.. its a 4-7 game media award.

Clearly FMVP arent the sole criteria as Jordan only has 6.

Im not really arguing what your or my individual Goat list would look like. Just how the general perception would be.

Kobe winning 5 rings with 5 FMVP with 27/5/5 (made up) would be considered the second best player of all time. Behind Jordan.

[Milbuck]

Im not really debating this. My point is that Kobe with 5 FMVP would be considered the GOAT(2nd) by most. Not borderline top 10 like he is now.
The fact of the matter is, Kobe won 4 of his 5 rings as a clear-cut Finals MVP caliber player.

Dirk winning 5 rings as FMVP from 2008-2014 would still be a clearly inferior player to 2001 & 2002 and 2009 & 2010 Kobe, for every year except 2011.

Again, reading your posts on several matters, it seems you have a very structured view on many things with very little wiggle room with regards to context and details.

I see absolutely no reason why Dirk winning a FMVP/ring as the man on the 2014 Spurs putting up 20/7 should hold more weight than Kobe winning a ring in 2001 as the 2nd option but still completely shitting on the competition on a vastly higher level.

I really don't think it's that hard to understand.

[navy]

Because you can't refute any points. The fact of the matter is, Kobe won 4 of his 5 rings as a clear-cut Finals MVP caliber player.

Dirk winning 5 rings as FMVP from 2008-2014 would still be a clearly inferior player to 2001 & 2002 and 2009 & 2010 Kobe, for every year except 2011.

Again, reading your posts on several matters, it seems you have a very structured view on many things with very little wiggle room with regards to context and details.

I see absolutely no reason why Dirk winning a FMVP/ring as the man on the 2014 Spurs putting up 20/7 should hold more weight than Kobe winning a ring in 2001 as the 2nd option but still completely shitting on the competition on a vastly higher level.

I really don't think it's that hard to understand.

FMVP caliber, not FMVP. That is where Kobe gets held back. Hes not gonna be considered the GOAT when his teammate is averaging 30/10, or 40/12. It doesnt matter what his stats were, there was someone on his team that was better than him. Someone who was blowing him out of the water in the finals.

Dirk winning 5 FMVP would move him above kobe . Anyone winning 5 fmvp would be above Kobe. They would be above everyone. 5 mvps.

It depends on what you value. Not every has the same criteria, except the usual constant is winning rings the best player on the team. 5 FMVP, well very few people would have a case over that level of winning as the man.

[navy]

I'll make a thread and get a consensus.

[eliteballer]

Is Isiah Thomas top 10?

[ArbitraryWater]

The first half of your post is you arguing about 2013, when I already proved you already mentioned it. you delted later, after I started the 5 rings/GOAT talk.

I dont see how anyone winning 5 rings as the man would not be considered the GOAT to be honest. Duncan got his 5th ring and was moved up to 4 on alot of list. Isnt the point that Dirk would be better than him?


Ah, there we have your brain fart... No, Duncan > Dirk. Irrelevant of titles.

I see you're still in tunnel vision talking about 5 rings?

[Milbuck]

FMVP caliber, not FMVP. That is where Kobe gets held back. Hes not gonna be considered the GOAT when his teammate is averaging 30/10, or 40/12. It doesnt matter what his stats were, there was someone on his team that was better than him. Someone who was blowing him out of the water in the finals.

Dirk winning 5 FMVP would move him above kobe . Anyone winning 5 fmvp would be above Kobe. They would be above everyone. 5 mvps.

It depends on what you value. Not every has the same criteria, except the usual constant is winning rings the best player on the team. 5 FMVP, well very few people would have a case over that level of winning as the man.
Yeah, pretty obvious we're not gonna get anywhere in this discussion.

Please continue thinking that Kobe putting up a Jordan-esque 32/7/6/2/1 on 58% TS with elite defense against the Western conference (and utterly shitting on two high level teams) and 29/7/6/2/1 on 57% TS over the entire playoffs en route to a championship is somehow less valuable than Dirk (hypothetically) winning FMVP on the 2014 Spurs in place of Duncan, putting up a monstrous 18/8.

Wonderful logic, because FMVP ring > 2nd option ring, no exceptions whatsoever.

[ArbitraryWater]

Holy shit... What the hell is this? Okay... Do I need to tell you "Exclude 2013"... Is that it?

I'm talking about FOUR RINGS... Got it?

Nobody is talking about 2013... You can exclude "Ginobili laying an egg"... Saying Parker laid an egg, is again incredibly disrespectful on your part, but expected. And lol at the "Automatically expected to perform?" Yes, I expect top 100 greats (Parker/Manu) to perform... Manu has often been argued as top 50 on here, there's an extra thread for it as well.

I didn't know you were such a shitty clueless ring-counter either... What do you mean "GOAT" Based on ****ing what?

Do you also take into consideration opposition, help, context, MVP's, playoff performance, etc.?

Or is that like ***** a mystery to you?

How would 4 rings equal GOAT or 2nd to MJ or whatever?

Based on RINGS alone, that would place him behind Jordan/Kareem/Russell/Magic/Mikan/Shaq at 7, considering they've all won more and had bigger contributions to their titles. Does your brain grasp this?

So, if, IF, ring-counting REALLY IS, your only criteria... That would put him at 7... But you would be retarded to do so... Which tells me something about your "criteria" is incomplete... Lacking other factors.

He won't magically be a better player than Duncan, Bird, LeBron or Hakeem...

So again, I will repeat myself and continue waiting for you to make your case against the 4 mentioned years.


As you know Dirk won in 2011, made the Finals in 2006, won 67 games and MVP in 2014, was a better player than Duncan in 2014 who became Champion on one of the best teams ever...

Any normal fan can see it's not hard to assume Dirk winning in any of these years, on STRONGER teams...


Ill respond to AW later. Maybe.

...

[navy]

Yeah, pretty obvious we're not gonna get anywhere in this discussion.

Please continue thinking that Kobe putting up a Jordan-esque 32/7/6/2/1 on 58% TS with elite defense against the Western conference (and utterly shitting on two high level teams) and 29/7/6/2/1 on 57% TS over the entire playoffs en route to a championship is somehow less valuable than Dirk (hypothetically) winning FMVP on the 2014 Spurs in place of Duncan, putting up a monstrous 18/8.

Wonderful logic, because FMVP ring > 2nd option ring, no exceptions whatsoever.

You inserted things in there I never said. We arent talking about an 18/8 ring.

We are talking about 5.

Dirk leading his team to 5 rings.

A FMVP ring > 2nd Option ring, no exceptions isnt something I said.

5 FMVPs though >>>>>

[Milbuck]

You inserted things in there I never said. We arent talking about an 18/8 ring.

We are talking about 5.

Dirk leading his team to 5 rings.

A FMVP ring > 2nd Option ring, no exceptions isnt something I said.

5 FMVPs though >>>>>
Dirk on the 2014 Spurs isn't sniffing anything close to 29/7/6/2/1 on 58% TS with elite defense.

Not even remotely close. Like completely different tiers as players.

I'd expect something like 18/8 from Dirk on the 2014 Spurs, which on that stacked and incredible well constructed and coached team, would be more than enough to win the ring and FMVP.

So that championship run with FMVP is worth more than Kobe's 2001 run? As is Tony Parker's 2007 run? Or Paul Pierce's 2008 run?

[navy]

The first half of your post is you arguing about 2013, when I already proved you already mentioned it. you deleted later, after I started the 5 rings/GOAT talk.

I dont see how anyone winning 5 rings as the man would not be considered the GOAT to be honest. Duncan got his 5th ring and was moved up to 4 on alot of list. Isnt the point that Dirk would be better than him?
Me responding to you. Stop eating up my space with text lol.

[Pointguard]

Agree to diisagree.

Spurs through the majority of their champ teams (and arguably 2014 also) are a team with a defensive identity through and through (very low scoring teams), and building an elite defensive team around Dirk takes more money than Peter Holt, RC Buford, and Popovich are probably willing/able to spend in SA's market. (Mavs go over the cap, what every season?)

Duncan's combined defense and offense is absolutely instrumental to the Spurs success and identity and has catapulted him into the top-10 players ever out of literally thousands of players. Just don't see Dirk filling in for that, y'all are over simplifying it and probably forgetting how amazing prime Tim Duncan was.

I bet you never thought that this argument would break out. No way can Duncan be on the outskirts of anybodies GOAT list. He won when Kobe, Shaq and Lebron where in their prime... won it all and beat them all, when they were with a super duper star and Duncan could never really count on Parker and Gin as they took turns not showing up. And Duncan was one of the best all around players in the process, and one of the greatest winners. What has the world come to?

[navy]

Dirk on the 2014 Spurs isn't sniffing anything close to 29/7/6/2/1 on 58% TS with elite defense.

Not even remotely close. Like completely different tiers as players.

I'd expect something like 18/8 from Dirk on the 2014 Spurs, which on that stacked and incredible well constructed and coached team, would be more than enough to win the ring and FMVP.

So that championship run with FMVP is worth more than Kobe's 2001 run? As is Tony Parker's 2007 run? Or Paul Pierce's 2008 run?
5 of them? Yes.

That would be assuming Dirk could win in 06, 07, 11, 13, 14 with 18/8. He definetly couldnt. I never said he was putting up stats like that either as he would be playing better than Duncan, but if he was and if you really want to argue that angle.

[Milbuck]

5 of them? Yes.

That would be assuming Dirk could win in 06, 07, 11, 13, 14 with 18/8. He definetly couldnt. I never said he was putting up stats like that wither, but if he was if you really want to argue that angle.
The hypothetical was 2011, and 2012-2015 with the Spurs in which he puts up 18/8 and wins all FMVPs. Which is entirely possible considering how close the Spurs were each of those years and considering that Dirk has been better than Duncan for some time now.

And if you really think 18/8 FMVPs are worth more than 29/7/6/2/1 superstar 2nd option rings, I don't know what to tell you. I really don't.

It's bordering on 4th grader logic.......NO FMVP MEANS CARRIED LOOL

[chazzy]

Since 2006, name all seasons Duncan has been superior than Dirk.

I got: POSSIBLY 2007 / 2013.
Possibly? Dirk's 07 playoff collapse combined with Duncan title run makes that easily a Duncan year. And 2013 wasn't close either

[navy]

The hypothetical was 2011, and 2012-2015 with the Spurs in which he puts up 18/8 and wins all FMVPs. Which is entirely possible considering how close the Spurs were each of those years and considering that Dirk has been better than Duncan for some time now.

And if you really think 18/8 FMVPs are worth more than 29/7/6/2/1 superstar 2nd option rings, I don't know what to tell you. I really don't.

It's bordering on 4th grader logic.......NO FMVP MEANS CARRIED LOOL

He would need more than 18/8 and average defense to replace Duncan for 5 FMVPs.

I never mentioned numbers. That was you. The only year Dirk could win with 18/8 is 2014. No other year would be acceptable, but honestly if he was really out here leading his team to 4 peats, yes it really isnt a stretch to say he would be above Kobe.

[Real14]

Is Isiah Thomas top 10?
He's in my top 10.

[Milbuck]

He would need more than 18/8 and average defense to replace Duncan for 5 FMVPs.

I never mentioned numbers. That was you. The only year Dirk could win with 18/8 is 2014. No other year would be acceptable, but honestly if he was really out here leading his team to 4 peats, yes it really isnt a stretch to say he would be above Kobe.
Actually it is quite possible. With Dirk's ability to stretch the floor and score from everywhere, it opens up the game for the rest of the team and creates a mismatch for the opposing defense that Duncan just cannot do at all. That Spurs offense with Dirk would be absolutely filthy. And their defense would be just fine, albeit worse. It's entirely possible for them to win every year from 2012-2015 if Dirk gives them 18/8 while opens up defenses and comes through in the clutch.

And I'm not talking about Dirk being ahead of Kobe in this scenario. You said he'd be the 2nd GOAT. Which means he'd be ahead of 3-peat Shaq who was arguably the 2nd highest peak ever with a near 40-20 finals series...and Kareem, Russell, etc.

My general point is that you seem to not give a shit about the level these players actually played at when they won their rings....which is, and I'm sorry if this is harsh, really stupid.

[navy]

Actually it is quite possible. With Dirk's ability to stretch the floor and score from everywhere, it opens up the game for the rest of the team and creates a mismatch for the opposing defense that Duncan just cannot do at all. That Spurs offense with Dirk would be absolutely filthy. And their defense would be just fine, albeit worse. It's entirely possible for them to win every year from 2012-2015 if Dirk gives them 18/8 while opens up defenses and comes through in the clutch.

And I'm not talking about Dirk being ahead of Kobe in this scenario. You said he'd be the 2nd GOAT. Which means he'd be ahead of 3-peat Shaq who was arguably the 2nd highest peak ever with a near 40-20 finals series...and Kareem, Russell, etc.

The stretch 4 is pretty much the norm now. How many good teams dont use one since 2012-2015?

That's a huge discredit to say their defense would be just fine. Duncan was in all defensive teams and the backup center is tiago splitter. Who certainly wasnt getting quality at center minutes till like last year, when he shut down Dirk ironically. Well, and the year before he guarded zbo and gasol.

He would be close. I mean the hype would be there. Shaq is already on the lower tier with the second highest peal and like I said Kareem and Russell are rarely mentioned outside of message boards. The top 3 are usually Jordan, Magic, and then Bird, and then people guess someone to put at 4 at their choosing.

Would 5 FMVP from Dirk in a ten year span put him a close to Jordan? Yes.

I dont think it is that crazy a statement. Maybe if you take it to the absurd and say he could win with 10/5/3. Th original premise would be he would be better than Duncan who was 18/8 with great defense. That is a solid player.

[Milbuck]

The stretch 4 is pretty much the norm now. How many good teams dont use one since 2012-2015?

That's a huge discredit to say their defense would be just fine. Duncan was in all defensive teams and the backup center is tiago splitter. Who certainly wasnt getting quality at center minutes till like last year, when he shut down Dirk ironically. Well, and the year before he guarded zbo and gasol.

He would be close. I mean the hype would be there. Shaq is already on the lower tier with the second highest peal and like I said Kareem and Russell are rarely mentioned outside of message boards. The top 3 are usually Jordan, Magic, and then Bird, and then people guess someone to put at 4 at their choosing.

Would 5 FMVP from Dirk in a ten year span put him a close to Jordan? Yes.

I dont think it is that crazy a statement. Maybe if you take it to the absurd and say he could win with 10/5/3.
There is no planet in which Dirk winning 5 rings with the 2011 Mavs and 2012-2015 Spurs puts him close to Jordan.

It's not even remotely close.

I'm not going to bring up the Horry argument....but you are completely ignoring what level these players played at.

Suggesting that Dirk hypothetically putting up 18/8 on a FMVP championship run is anywhere near Jordan dropping ****ing 41/9/6 in a finals series is just absurd.

[navy]

There is no planet in which Dirk winning 5 rings with the 2011 Mavs and 2012-2015 Spurs puts him close to Jordan.

It's not even remotely close.

I'm not going to bring up the Horry argument....but you are completely ignoring what level these players played at.

Suggesting that Dirk hypothetically putting up 18/8 on a FMVP championship run is anywhere near Jordan dropping ****ing 41/9/6 in a finals series is just absurd.
2nd is close to first....

I didnt ignore the level. The bar was that you could replace Tim Duncan an 18/8 player with good defense with Dirk and he would win 5 times.

That implies he has to play at Duncan's level, although if he wants five rings logically it will be above that as Duncan didnt win 5 in that span. You guys just went on a tangent with your 10/5/5 stats and shit like that.

[Milbuck]

2nd is close to first....

I didnt ignore the level. The bar was that you could replace Tim Duncan an 18/8 player with good defense with Dirk and he would win 5 times.

That implies he has to play at Duncan's level, although if he wants five rings logically it will be above that as Duncan didnt win 5 in that span.

I would certainly move this guy up the all time list.
But he wouldn't be 2nd. And even if he wasn't the difference in the level of play is massive. So no, it still wouldn't be close.

5-10% above Duncan's level, assuming everything else remains constant, wins them the ring in 2013, 2014, and 2015. All he has to do is give them some clutch offensive firepower over Duncan against OKC in 2012, which Dirk definitely could've done if he came to play. There's really nothing out of the realm of possibility here. Dirk playing at a slightly higher level than 2012-2015 Duncan could lead to a potential 4-peat by San Antonio.

But still, that level would be nowhere close to the level that Jordan was at for his rings, Shaq was at for his 3-peat, Magic was at for most of his rings, Kobe was at for 4 of his 5 rings, Lebron was at for his 2 rings, Duncan for his first 3-4 rings, etc. We're talking completely different tiers of players here. Superstar, all-time great levels of play compared to a fringe all-star level of play winning on a super stacked super well coached team.

[navy]

But he wouldn't be 2nd. And even if he wasn't the difference in the level of play is massive. So no, it still wouldn't be close.

5-10% above Duncan's level, assuming everything else remains constant, wins them the ring in 2013, 2014, and 2015. All he has to do is give them some clutch offensive firepower over Duncan against OKC in 2012, which Dirk definitely could've done with if he came to play. There's really nothing out of the realm of possibility here. Dirk playing at a slightly higher level than 2012-2015 Duncan could lead to a potential 4-peat by San Antonio.

But still, that level would be nowhere close to the level that Jordan was at for his rings, Shaq was at for his 3-peat, Magic was at for most of his rings, Kobe was at for 4 of his 5 rings, Lebron was at for his 2 rings, Duncan for his first 3-4 rings, etc. We're talking completely different tiers of players here. Superstar, all-time great levels of play compared to a fringe all-star level of play winning on a super stacked super well coached team.
5% above 18/8 with great defense is what?

I'm not sure how that would win them rings those years regardless. 2012, they would have to beat the Heat and Thunder, 2013 Heat, 2014 Thunder and HEat, 2015 Cavs, Thunder. And those were just the definite matchups.

So far the SPurs have only won in one of these years. Dirk playing at higher level than Duncan and winning 5 times would be a remarkable feat.

Im not sure how something above 18/8 with defense wouldn't be a looked at as impressive . Im assuming we take out Duncan's defense for a boost in offense. Dirk would have to at least be what? 24/8 lowball to make up the difference.

I mean no he isnt putting up peak Shaq, but several of the people above shaq werent either. They were out there winning. 5 rings in that short span is winning. 4 peats, 3 peats? Credit the cast and Coach, but your still talking about something special. Things never been done and rarely been done? No, I wouldnt have a problem with Dirk being number 2 all time.

[Milbuck]

This is getting ridiculous, I'm done with this discussion after this post. The worst part is I know you're not trolling, you just view things in the most simplistic way possible.

If you want to believe that Jordan putting up 31/7/11 in the 91 finals, 36/5/7 in 92, and 41/9/6 in 93 is in any way comparable to Dirk slightly outplaying 2012-2014 Duncan and 3-peating with 3 FMVPs as a fringe all-star on a stacked team in every way, go right ahead. But it's seriously a retarded line of thought.

[navy]

This is getting ridiculous, I'm done with this discussion after this post. The worst part is I know you're not trolling, you just view things in the most simplistic way possible.

If you want to believe that Jordan putting up 31/7/11 in the 91 finals, 36/5/7 in 92, and 41/9/6 in 93 is in any way comparable to Dirk slightly outplaying 2012-2014 Duncan and 3-peating with 3 FMVPs as a fringe all-star on a stacked team in every way, go right ahead. But it's seriously a retarded line of thought.
...The only stacked team was 2014...

We are talking about rankings, not who put up the best performances. Otherwise the top 10 list would look radically different.

In any case I did say he would be second to Mr 31/7/11, 36/5/7 , 41/9/6. :rolleyes:

[hiphopfan777]

dirk is better than kg. Dirk because he stayed and won a championship with his original team.

[rmt]

Ginobili, yes. Parker? No.

Parker was 30 seconds away and a missed manu/kawhi FT from being the clear cut FMVP.. Parker played very good in that series leading the spurs almost singlehandedly in the clutch in both games 1 and 6.. while Duncan was going scoreless in second halves and missing layups to tie in the final minutes.

now they have Dirk + Parker in the clutch in that scenario. Amazing combo especially considering how clutch dirk was that year..

Youre also leaving out Danny Greens record setting performance, diaws amazing play, and even kawhi's very well rounded play with him beasting on the boards and playing elite defense on lebron. Duncan got more help that year than Dirk did in 2011.

Again, tpols, we have very different memories of 2013 Finals.

1. "diaw's amazing play" - in which world is averaging 4 pts / 2.5 rebs / 1.7 asst and playing only 15.7 mins a game AMAZING? Maybe you're confusing Diaw's 2014 Finals (9.2/4.8/3.4 50%) to 2013?

2013 Finals
Duncan 18.9 pts / 12.1 rebs / 1.4 asst / 1.4 blks 49%FG
Parker 15.7 pts / 6.4 asst 41%FG

No way would Parker be the "clear cut FMVP" even without game 7 when Duncan had a 30/17 62%FG game 6 and Parker had a 19/8 game on 26%FG no matter what clutch shot he hit.

game 6 Duncan/Parker
ORtg 130 / 100
DRtg 106 /112
TS% 64.7% / 36.4%
+16 / +8

[ArbitraryWater]

Duncan's had great supporting casts throughout his career...

Dude posted historically bad efficiency (50% TS, 101 ORTG) in the 2013 post-season and especially up until the last 2 games or so... Yet the Spurs couldn't have been closer to winning it all.

I know his impact goes beyond offense, but still...

That's bad. A fully collective effort led by Parker... Who was brilliant the ENTIRE year (MVP talks) until LeBron locked him down in game's 6 and 7.

[T_L_P]

Duncan's had great supporting casts throughout his career...

Dude posted historically bad efficiency (50% TS, 101 ORTG) in the 2013 post-season and especially up until the last 2 games or so... Yet the Spurs couldn't have been closer to winning it all.

I know his impact goes beyond offense, but still...

That's bad. A fully collective effort led by Parker... Who was brilliant the ENTIRE year (MVP talks) until LeBron locked him down in game's 6 and 7.

:biggums:

Duncan in the 2013 Playoffs: .523 TS%, 106 ORtg. Where the fck are you pulling out those numbers? Your ass?

Parker in 03: .468 TS%, 96 ORtg
Parker in 05: .490 TS%, 103 ORtg
Parker in 07: .523 TS%, 103 ORtg
Parker in 13: .521 TS%, 108 ORtg
Parker in 14: .531 TS%, 103 ORtg

^Just in case you try saying .523 TS%/106 ORtg is still historically bad. I guess that means Parker was historically bad every single year the Spurs had success. :eek:

[ArbitraryWater]

:biggums:

Duncan in the 2013 Playoffs: .523 TS%, 106 ORtg. Where the fck are you pulling out those numbers? Your ass?

Parker in 03: .468 TS%, 96 ORtg
Parker in 05: .490 TS%, 103 ORtg
Parker in 07: .523 TS%, 103 ORtg
Parker in 13: .521 TS%, 108 ORtg
Parker in 14: .531 TS%, 103 ORtg

Make of that what you will.

Those numbers are through the first 2 games of the finals

[JohnnySic]

Dirk will never sniff the top 20 much less top 10. He is probably in the 25-30 range. ISH is full of idiots. :facepalm

[T_L_P]

Those numbers are through the first 2 games of the finals


Dude posted historically bad efficiency (50% TS, 101 ORTG) in the 2013 post-season

Sure fooled me.


Damn, he used the WHOLE Playoff run to talk about Kobe's run?

What's he thinking? He's just trying to paint a false Picture...

Obviously we exclude 2 bad shooting games Kobe had smh... Kobe haters

Now we exclude Duncan's good ones?

Hey, you're the one saying Parker, Kawhi and Manu were more important to the Spurs last year than Duncan, even though they beat the Thunder in game 6 with Parker on the bench (down 7 points when he left). That motor sure kept on running without him. And we won that game with Kawhi going scoreless in the 4th in OT (surely he should have dominated with his next best player out)? And we practically swept the Blazers with Manu averaging 9/4/3 on 28% shooting/80 ORtg. That's historically bad production for you. :applause:

[ArbitraryWater]

Sure fooled me.



Now we exclude Duncan's good ones?

Hey, you're the one saying Parker, Kawhi and Manu were more important to the Spurs last year than Duncan, even though they beat the Thunder in game 6 with Parker on the bench (down 7 points when he left). That motor sure kept on running without him. And we won that game with Kawhi going scoreless in the 4th in OT (surely he should have dominated with his next best player out)? And we practically swept the Blazers with Manu averaging 9/4/3 on 28% shooting/80 ORtg. That's historically bad production for you. :applause:

You won this.


Dirk will never sniff the top 20 much less top 10. He is probably in the 25-30 range. ISH is full of idiots. :facepalm

no white text?

Sorry to disappoint you, but this isn't just ISH... Dirk in the top 20 is pretty much the general opinion by now.

[T_L_P]

You won this.



no white text?

Sorry to disappoint you, but this isn't just ISH... Dirk in the top 20 is pretty much the general opinion by now.

Let me just say: Parker most likely was the best Spur in 2013, all thing's considered. Duncan had one of the better comeback seasons we've ever seen, but Parker was putting up MVP numbers for a good portion of the season. I'd personally take Duncan because I still believe a big man has a bigger impact on the game than a guard, but it's neck-and-neck.

And I've already said Dirk wins at least 3 on the Spurs...which is pretty fcking great. :cheers:

However, as I believe you've already said, Dirk making the top 10 if he wins again is a stretch. Too many all time greats with the talent/skills and achievements. If Dirk won in 06 too like he should have, we'd be talking.

[ArbitraryWater]

Let me just say: Parker most likely was the best Spur in 2013, all thing's considered. Duncan had one of the better comeback seasons we've ever seen, but Parker was putting up MVP numbers for a good portion of the season. I'd personally take Duncan because I still believe a big man has a bigger impact on the game than a guard, but it's neck-and-neck.

And I've already said Dirk wins at least 3 on the Spurs...which is pretty fcking great. :cheers:

However, as I believe you've already said, Dirk making the top 10 if he wins again is a stretch. Too many all time greats with the talent/skills and achievements. If Dirk won in 06 too like he should have, we'd be talking.

Nothing to disagree with here :cheers:

[JohnnySic]

no white text?

Sorry to disappoint you, but this isn't just ISH... Dirk in the top 20 is pretty much the general opinion by now.
MJ
Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Bird
Magic
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan
Kobe

Moses Malone
West
Robertson
Havlicek
Baylor
Erving
Karl Malone
Barkley
Pettit
LeBron

Garnett
Pippen
Stockton
Thomas


Sorry, not buying it. I think with time Dirk will be judged correctly through perspective.

[riseagainst]

if he wins it all this year i'd have him at 10, pushing lebron out.