Lets say Kobe never plays with Shaq and wins 5 FMVPs. Where would he rank?

[navy]

Let's say Kobe 3 peats and then two peats while winning the FMVP without Shaq dominating. Good stats as well.

Would he be considering the second best all time behind Jordan or still in the lower tier of the Top 10?

I guess some people like to value the 60s and 70s stars, and there is no shame in that. Im however assuming that Kobe's modern domincance would push him past that to the majority like what happened with MJ. I wouldnt really be opposed to putting Russell or Wilt or Kareem there, I just dont think many people do outside of message boards.

Hypothetically speaking, where would Kobe rank?

[Milbuck]

Carrying on from that other thread..

Please tell me, if Dirk gets traded to the Spurs in the 2011 offseason for Duncan....and the Spurs go on to 4-peat from 2012-2015 with Dirk winning FMVP every time but only putting up 18/8 in a team effort....is he the 2nd GOAT like you explicitly stated he would be?

I mean, 5 rings and 5 FMVPs :confusedshrug:

[ArbitraryWater]

What do you mean? Simply take Shaq off those teams and the back up C is now the starter? Obviously Kobe would need to post 35+ppg on 50+% then to compensate... You still have alot of explaining to do for a ridiculous hypothetical such as this one.

You're going on the "If Dirk has 4 titles, he's 2nd GOAT" (This is actually what navy said)... But this is a case by case subject, you still need to respect context, opposition, teammates, playoff performance, mvp's... Which is why your hypothetical is totally absurd.

Kobe already had superstar production on 3-4 titles. (2001, 2009, 2010 are that quite easily).

But you still haven't responded.


Holy shit... What the hell is this? Okay... Do I need to tell you "Exclude 2013"... Is that it?

I'm talking about FOUR RINGS... Got it?

Nobody is talking about 2013... You can exclude "Ginobili laying an egg"... Saying Parker laid an egg, is again incredibly disrespectful on your part, but expected. And lol at the "Automatically expected to perform?" Yes, I expect top 100 greats (Parker/Manu) to perform... Manu has often been argued as top 50 on here, there's an extra thread for it as well.

I didn't know you were such a shitty clueless ring-counter either... What do you mean "GOAT" Based on ****ing what?

Do you also take into consideration opposition, help, context, MVP's, playoff performance, etc.?

Or is that like ***** a mystery to you?

How would 4 rings equal GOAT or 2nd to MJ or whatever?

Based on RINGS alone, that would place him behind Jordan/Kareem/Russell/Magic/Mikan/Shaq at 7, considering they've all won more and had bigger contributions to their titles. Does your brain grasp this?

So, if, IF, ring-counting REALLY IS, your only criteria... That would put him at 7... But you would be retarded to do so... Which tells me something about your "criteria" is incomplete... Lacking other factors.

He won't magically be a better player than Duncan, Bird, LeBron or Hakeem...

So again, I will repeat myself and continue waiting for you to make your case against the 4 mentioned years.


As you know Dirk won in 2011, made the Finals in 2006, won 67 games and MVP in 2014, was a better player than Duncan in 2014 who became Champion on one of the best teams ever...

Any normal fan can see it's not hard to assume Dirk winning in any of these years, on STRONGER teams...


Ill respond to AW later. Maybe.

[navy]

Carrying on from that other thread..

Please tell me, if Dirk gets traded to the Spurs in the 2011 offseason for Duncan....and the Spurs go on to 4-peat from 2012-2015 with Dirk winning FMVP every time but only putting up 18/8 in a team effort....is he the 2nd GOAT like you explicitly stated he would be?

I mean, 5 rings and 5 FMVPs :confusedshrug:
A 4 peat? Hell with 5 fmvp? :biggums:

GOAT.

[chazzy]

5 titles as the man with the longevity he's had? He's way up there. It's a matter of where you rank Wilt/Russell and how much you factor in Kareem's superior prime play.

[Milbuck]

A 4 peat hell with 5 fmvp? :biggums:

GOAT.
Again, this is retard logic at its finest, where context is thrown out the window.

So Dirk putting up 18/8 on an stacked, incredibly deep, historically well coached team is 2nd GOAT level shit? Like, better than Shaq's 3-peat in which he had a finals of damn near 40-20?

What the ****?

[ArbitraryWater]

You really have a hard on for that Biggums face, eh

I guess the 5 rings thing is between you and buck.

Your thread is so far off our initial topic, nobody even knows what you're trying to prove... You can't, either.

[Warfan]

This obsession over rankings and legacies has become really annoying. (Not trying to direct this to you navy).

Maybe I shouldn't be posting on a nba forum if I want to ignore this...:lol

[tpols]

Again, this is retard logic at its finest, where context is thrown out the window.

So Dirk putting up 18/8 on an stacked, incredibly deep, historically well coached team is 2nd GOAT level shit? Like, better than Shaq's 3-peat in which he had a finals of damn near 40-20?

What the ****?

:lol

Lets take it a step further.. lets say the 4 other starters on that team average 10/9/5.. so four 10 ppg scorers with great rebounding and passing.. Dirk averages 13ppg and wins 4-5 FMVPs? GOAT?

Hed be like bill russell without the defense:bowdown:

[navy]

Again, this is retard logic at its finest, where context is thrown out the window.

So Dirk putting up 18/8 on an stacked, incredibly deep, historically well coached team is 2nd GOAT level shit? Like, better than Shaq's 3-peat in which he had a finals of damn near 40-20?

What the ****?
Duncan only won 1 ring on a team like that. He only had one team like that, but anyways....

Bruh you just mentioned a 4 peat and think someone like this wouldnt be considered by many the second best all time regardless of criteria.

4 peat? :biggums:

[ArbitraryWater]

:lol

Lets take it a step further.. lets say the 4 other starters on that team average 10/9/5.. so four 10 ppg scorers with great rebounding and passing.. Dirk averages 13ppg and wins 4-5 FMVPs? GOAT?

Hed be like bill russell without the defense:bowdown:

lmfao

[navy]

This obsession over rankings and legacies has become really annoying. (Not trying to direct this to you navy).

Maybe I shouldn't be posting on a nba forum if I want to ignore this...:lol

Dog, but you gotta agree first. Im not even a Kobe stan.

I mean 5 FMVPs from Kobe, and he isnt the second best or close all time in the rankings?

[Cocaine80s]

He would easily be top 10.

[navy]

He would easily be top 10.
Are you sure? Who would he bump?

[Milbuck]

:lol

Lets take it a step further.. lets say the 4 other starters on that team average 10/9/5.. so four 10 ppg scorers with great rebounding and passing.. Dirk averages 13ppg and wins 4-5 FMVPs? GOAT?

Hed be like bill russell without the defense:bowdown:
Dat teamwork, dat unselfishness :bowdown: :bowdown:

13 ppg average defense 5 time FMVP :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

This is a loaded question for a couple reasons:

1) How effective young Kobe and his game actually are without Shaq; you dont play the games on a statsheet
2) Who is he playing with? Peak LeBron? We need more info in your OP

As constructed, what you asked cannot be addressed seriously.

[chazzy]

This is a loaded question for a couple reasons:

1) How effective young Kobe and his game actually are without Shaq; you dont play the games on a statsheet
2) Who is he playing with? Peak LeBron? We need more info in your OP

As constructed, what you asked cannot be addressed seriously.
I assumed 5 seasons/playoff runs similar to 09 and 10

[Smook A.]

Well if Kobe had no Shaq, he'd have to have put up monster numbers if he wanted the Lakers to win rings. Something like 37/7/6. Let's say he does put those numbers up and wins 5 rings & 5 FMVPs. He'd easily be in the top 4-7 range for me.

[navy]

This is a loaded question for a couple reasons:

1) How effective young Kobe and his game actually are without Shaq; you dont play the games on a statsheet
2) Who is he playing with? Peak LeBron? We need more info in your OP

As constructed, what you asked cannot be addressed seriously.
Kobe is at 27/6/5ish for all his rings.
Lets say he is playing with a just a regular good cast, no top 10 players.

[navy]

I assumed 5 seasons/playoff runs similar to 09 and 10
Pretty much. Good solid play all rings as the man.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Kobe is at 27/6/5ish for all his rings.
Lets say he is playing with a just a regular good cast, no top 10 players.


I assumed 5 seasons/playoff runs similar to 09 and 10

Without Shaq and no top 10 players? Jeez.. :oldlol:

In a universe where reality is suspended, I would say the 5 - 8 range.

[D-FENS]

5 FMVPs? Did he team with KG or Duncan instead?

[macpierce]

Shaq was way to dominant in 2000-2002, didnt matter if you replace kobe with lebron or durant.

Kobe's resume would look a lot better if they didnt lose in 2008 though.