The Thunder/Westbrook have been AWFUL without Durant

[Joyner82reload]

Granted it's just the preseason, but let's look at their first half numbers(when starters play in preseason) the last 3 games since Durant went down with an injury.

-They've been outscored 175-131
That's an average of 58-44

-For the entire game, they've been outscored by an average of 113-90.

-They've won exactly 2 of the 12 total quarters, meanwhile they've seen opposing teams double their score in 3 different quarters.

-They've shot 39.8% from the floor and 21.3% from 3 as a TEAM

-Westbrook has put up 27 points, 7 rebounds, 11 assists, and 9 turnovers in 50 minutes played on 29.6 FG% 0 3P%.

-There is not 1 single player on the Thunder with a positive +/- over the 3 game stretch.

[andremiller07]

I don't know why people keep pretending players like Ibaka/Adams/Lamb/Jackson are anythimg more than average at best players. Anthony Morrow is decent, they never had a 3rd option (since KMart left) even with KD/WB and now they are missing KD what were people expecting? The support cast around WB and KD has been average since they let Harden go that's just a fact.

Bunch of role players who would not get playing time on most other playoff teams in the West.

[Warfan]

Not that this is really good proof since it's just preseason.....but I think it's a joke that some people think they'll be like the 4th seed before KD comes back. Maybe they'll prove me wrong, hopefully not...

[Genaro]

Wait until season starts to overreact. It is just pre season, players aren't giving 100% in order to stay healthy, Thunder didn't even played the starters in all those games.
Thunder should be decent until KD comes back, I would say 5th or 6th in the West. Thought their start is tough. In the first week 5 games in 7 days, 4 on the road including 2 back to backs on the road.

[BlazerRed]

Wait until season starts to overreact. It is just pre season, players aren't giving 100% in order to stay healthy, Thunder didn't even played the starters in all those games.
Thunder should be decent until KD comes back, I would say 5th or 6th in the West. Thought their start is tough. In the first week 5 games in 7 days, 4 on the road including 2 back to backs on the road.
Their opponents for the first month are pretty good for a team missing their star player though.

Here's their opponents. Not a bad run overall. Highlighted the easy teams. Even most of the tougher games are at home for them.

AT Portland 9:30 p.m. (ESPN)
AT L.A. Clippers 9:30 p.m. (TNT)
Denver 7 p.m.
AT Brooklyn 6:30 p.m.
AT Toronto 6:30 p.m.
Memphis 7 p.m. (ESPN)
Sacramento 6 p.m.
Milwaukee 7 p.m.
Boston 6:30 p.m.
Detroit 7 p.m.
Houston 6 p.m. (NBATV)
AT Utah 8 p.m.
AT Denver 8 p.m.
Brooklyn 7 p.m.
Golden State 6 p.m. (NBA TV)
Utah 7 p.m.
New York 7 p.m.
AT New Orleans 7 p.m.
AT Philadelphia 6 p.m.
AT Detroit 5 p.m.
Milwaukee 7 p.m.
Cleveland 7 p.m. (TNT)
AT Minnesota 7 p.m.

I think they'll be sitting about 6th-7th by time Durant comes back assuming he's back by mid December.

[Nash]

what a surprise a team would play worse without 2nd best player in world

[NZStreetBaller]

what a surprise a team would play worse without 2nd best player in world

This isnt a miami thread bro......

[Haymaker]

Their opponents for the first month are pretty good for a team missing their star player though.

Here's their opponents. Not a bad run overall. Highlighted the easy teams. Even most of the tougher games are at home for them.

AT Portland 9:30 p.m. (ESPN)
AT L.A. Clippers 9:30 p.m. (TNT)
Denver 7 p.m.
AT Brooklyn 6:30 p.m.
AT Toronto 6:30 p.m.
Memphis 7 p.m. (ESPN)
Sacramento 6 p.m.
Milwaukee 7 p.m.
Boston 6:30 p.m.
Detroit 7 p.m.
Houston 6 p.m. (NBATV)
AT Utah 8 p.m.
AT Denver 8 p.m.
Brooklyn 7 p.m.
Golden State 6 p.m. (NBA TV)
Utah 7 p.m.
New York 7 p.m.
AT New Orleans 7 p.m.
AT Philadelphia 6 p.m.
AT Detroit 5 p.m.
Milwaukee 7 p.m.
Cleveland 7 p.m. (TNT)
AT Minnesota 7 p.m.

I think they'll be sitting about 6th-7th by time Durant comes back assuming he's back by mid December.

New Orleans are not really easy IMO. I think they will surprise many this season.

[dannywpt]

I don't know why people keep pretending players like Ibaka/Adams/Lamb/Jackson are anythimg more than average at best players. Anthony Morrow is decent, they never had a 3rd option (since KMart left) even with KD/WB and now they are missing KD what were people expecting? The support cast around WB and KD has been average since they let Harden go that's just a fact.

Bunch of role players who would not get playing time on most other playoff teams in the West.

Those are mostly former Heat fans, now Cavs fans.

And I agree so much with what you're saying. I don't think there's a better team to be a 3rd/4th option on than behind Westbrook and Durant. They put so much pressure on the defense that it can make a Jackson or Ibaka look very good at times, but honestly they are kind of mediocre compared to the rest of the league's 3rd/4th best players.

[Heatles201]

Those are mostly former Heat fans, now Cavs fans.

And I agree so much with what you're saying. I don't think there's a better team to be a 3rd/4th option on than behind Westbrook and Durant. They put so much pressure on the defense that it can make a Jackson or Ibaka look very good at times, but honestly they are kind of mediocre compared to the rest of the league's 3rd/4th best players.

No not really. Just look at OKC threads a whole bunch of okc heads
: OMG WE GOT MORROW CHAMPIONSHIP THAT SHOOTING!, and etc
grant you a lot of it coming from the trolls but still, no miami ( true fans) cares about what happens in OKC 2012 is long gone.

[KG215]

I don't know why people keep pretending players like Ibaka/Adams/Lamb/Jackson are anythimg more than average at best players. Anthony Morrow is decent, they never had a 3rd option (since KMart left) even with KD/WB and now they are missing KD what were people expecting? The support cast around WB and KD has been average since they let Harden go that's just a fact.

Bunch of role players who would not get playing time on most other playoff teams in the West.
So now Ibaka is an "average at best" player? Really?

[Collie]

People underestimate how much Durant took pressure off WB when he plays. He's a really, really, really good 2nd option, but I'd be a bit weary if he was my main guy.

[ArbitraryWater]

I don't know why people keep pretending players like Ibaka/Adams/Lamb/Jackson are anythimg more than average at best players. Anthony Morrow is decent, they never had a 3rd option (since KMart left) even with KD/WB and now they are missing KD what were people expecting? The support cast around WB and KD has been average since they let Harden go that's just a fact.

Bunch of role players who would not get playing time on most other playoff teams in the West.

Ibaka is all-star level, and Jackson is 6th man caliber.

[HurricaneKid]

Anytime your evidence is preseason results you are doing it all wrong. Anytime your evidence is cherry picked from preseason stats you are a troll with an agenda.

Here is the last 4 seasons worth of meaningful game results:

WITHOUT KD
(point differential per 100 off possessions and 100 def possessions)

+2.0 (without WB for significant period of time)
+4.1
+5.2
+4.6

Those equate to ELITE teams.

LeBron's best support, in ANY of his 11 years, with all the "stacking" was +.2

[SOD 21]

One of the really bad habits that Russell Westbrook has is jumping to make passes and he consistently gets himself caught in the air with nowhere to go. It dries me crazy and this is been a problem for years.

What I didn't like about last nights game is that Andre Roberson and Steven Adams only had two field-goal attempts combined in the game. Oklahoma City will not be able to play well without Kevin Durant without contributions from those two players in the starting lineup and Russell Westbrook needs to help create those opportunities for them, especially Steven Adams who is developing a nice low post game and good hands to finish around the basket.

Russell Westbrook needs to avoid going for 27 or 30 points per game while Kevin Durant is out. Oklahoma City would be much better if he averages 20 or 22 points per game with 10 or 12 assists per game because too many of his teammates are unable to create shots on their own.

[KG215]

Ibaka is all-star level, and Jackson is 6th man caliber.
It's andremiller. There's 15-20 PFs as good or better than Ibaka. We're not to far from him just straight up saying Ibaka is bad and, not long after that, terrible or a scrub.

[Taller than CP3]

Westbrook isn't the alpha that everyone thinks he is. In fact, it's quite the opposite. Sure, he is quite the competitor on the court. But have you heard him speak? He's actually quite soft spoken, timid, and shy. The fact is, both Westbrook and KD need each other. But in the end, KD is the true leader of the team. He's shown what he can do out there without Westbrook in the Playoffs. Meanwhile, Russell looks like a lost dog out there and it's only Preseason. KD is the real MVP.

[riseagainst]

what a surprise a team would play worse without 2nd best player in world

:roll:
:lol

[imdaman99]

Westbrook isn't the alpha that everyone thinks he is. In fact, it's quite the opposite. Sure, he is quite the competitor on the court. But have you heard him speak? He's actually quite soft spoken, timid, and shy. The fact is, both Westbrook and KD need each other. But in the end, KD is the true leader of the team. He's shown what he can do out there without Westbrook in the Playoffs. Meanwhile, Russell looks like a lost dog out there and it's only Preseason. KD is the real MVP.
Sure, if you consider going 3-6 proving himself without Westbrook in the playoffs :oldlol:

Give this team a chance, honestly I don't think it's well built because they depend so heavily on 2 guys. Only 2-3 guys can really create on this team, with Jackson being the other. It might get ugly for certain stretches, but we will see.

[tpols]

Anytime your evidence is preseason results you are doing it all wrong. Anytime your evidence is cherry picked from preseason stats you are a troll with an agenda.

Here is the last 4 seasons worth of meaningful game results:

WITHOUT KD
(point differential per 100 off possessions and 100 def possessions)

+2.0 (without WB for significant period of time)
+4.1
+5.2
+4.6

Those equate to ELITE teams.

LeBron's best support, in ANY of his 11 years, with all the "stacking" was +.2

Yea but Durant plays within his teams philosophies, and allows others to shine.. His style is great for opening the court up and allowing others to dribble, handle and feel the ball in their hands.. get in rythym, and become good players.

Lebron? The exact opposite really.. all of his former teammates (bosh/chalmers/wade etc) are now reveling in the fact that they will actually get to touch and feel the ball again, and go back to what they did growing up.. just playing some basketball.

[Hey Yo]

This stacked OKC team will be well above .500 by the time the Servant gets back on the court.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

It's andremiller. There's 15-20 PFs as good or better than Ibaka. We're not to far from him just straight up saying Ibaka is bad and, not long after that, terrible or a scrub.
Love
Dirk
LMA
Blake
Bosh
Melo (hes a PF now)
Millsap
AD
West
Lee
Taj
Pau
Timmy
Amir

Ibaka is a great role player but LOL @ allstar level. Replace him with any of these players and OKC gets better, waaaaaaaayyyyyyy better in some cases

[SamuraiSWISH]

Russell Westbrook needs to avoid going for 27 or 30 points per game while Kevin Durant is out. Oklahoma City would be much better if he averages 20 or 22 points per game with 10 or 12 assists per game because too many of his teammates are unable to create shots on their own.
I've always maintained this ... for him 20 ppg 12 apg is MVP caliber, and along with consistent defensive effort then he's the best PG in the league as well. He needs to average around 45 FG%, an minimal turnovers.

[KG215]

Love
Dirk
LMA
Blake
Bosh
Melo (hes a PF now)
Millsap
AD
West
Lee
Taj
Pau
Timmy
Amir

Ibaka is a great role player but LOL @ allstar level. Replace him with any of these players and OKC gets better, waaaaaaaayyyyyyy better in some cases
I didn't say he was All-Star caliber. And some of the ones you listed are, at best, debatable. He's certainly better than "average at best."

But I'm not getting into this with you because you and joyner are cut from the same cloth. You're a player stan, not an OKC fan, so any chance to denigrate said player's teammates, you take it.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

I didn't say he was All-Star caliber. And some of the ones you listed are, at best, debatable. He's certainly better than "average at best."

But I'm not getting into this with you because you and joyner are cut from the same cloth. You're a player stan, not an OKC fan, so any chance to denigrate said player's teammates, you take it.
What i have constantly praised Westbrook saying he was a top 10 player for years now and only 2nd to CP as a PG until Steph and Steven Adams on here:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:
Ibakas one of the most overrated players in the league and thats a fact

[tpols]

Love
Dirk
LMA
Blake
Bosh
Melo (hes a PF now)
Millsap
AD
West
Lee
Taj
Pau
Timmy
Amir

Ibaka is a great role player but LOL @ allstar level. Replace him with any of these players and OKC gets better, waaaaaaaayyyyyyy better in some cases

Better impact player than all the bolded.. lol at you reaching with melo as a PF.. and anthony davis is a center. Bosh is debateable. Fringe top 5 PF.

[JT123]

Love
Dirk
LMA
Blake
Bosh
Melo (hes a PF now)
Millsap
AD
West
Lee
Taj
Pau
Timmy
Amir

Ibaka is a great role player but LOL @ allstar level. Replace him with any of these players and OKC gets better, waaaaaaaayyyyyyy better in some cases
:oldlol: These KD stans will say ANYTHING to give their boy an excuse for being ringless. Ibaka put up better stats than Bosh last year, despite having to play with not one but TWO ball dominant players.
Ibaka is an All Star caliber player, and would be an All Star ahead of Bosh if he was in the East. Deal with it.

[NumberSix]

I don't know why people keep pretending players like Ibaka/Adams/Lamb/Jackson are anythimg more than average at best players.
Probably because they carried Durant through the playoffs.

[JT123]

Yea but Durant plays within his teams philosophies, and allows others to shine.. His style is great for opening the court up and allowing others to dribble, handle and feel the ball in their hands.. get in rythym, and become good players.
:biggums: Who the hell dribbles and handles the ball for OKC other than Durant and Westbrook? I get that you're trying to troll Lebron fans, but at least make troll comments that somewhat make sense. :no:
And if Durant's style supposedly makes others become good players, why is he STILL ringless? Why are his fans constantly crying about him not having enough help?

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Won 1 quarter (garbage time) against UTAH...........Ibaka got SONNED by Favors:lol :lol :lol

[andremiller07]

Better impact player than all the bolded.. lol at you reaching with melo as a PF.. and anthony davis is a center. Bosh is debateable. Fringe top 5 PF.
LMAO better impact than Tim Duncan? Boris Diaw impacts the game more than Ibaka. As evidenced by him playing against both Spain and OKC (who Ibaka plays for) in which he came out on top playing for both a superior and inferior team.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

LMAO better impact than Tim Duncan? Boris Diaw impacts the game more than Ibaka. As evidenced by him playing against both Spain and OKC (who Ibaka plays for) in which he came out on top playing for both a superior and inferior team.
They just look at impact as his athleticism they dont know what impact actually is.
Ibaka is a GREAT weakside shotblocker with a deadly midrange shot. But his overall post game is garbage on offense and defense. He only gets those midrange shots b/c he has 2 of the best players in the world taking massive pressure off him leaving him open and he was assisted on 86%!!! of his baskets last season. He cant pass at all, hes a mediocre rebounder compared to most of the players i mentioned............hes one of the least skilled big men on a contender

[andremiller07]

They just look at impact as his athleticism they dont know what impact actually is.
Ibaka is a GREAT weakside shotblocker with a deadly midrange shot. But his overall post game is garbage on offense and defense. He only gets those midrange shots b/c he has 2 of the best players in the world taking massive pressure off him leaving him open and he was assisted on 86%!!! of his baskets last season. He cant pass at all, hes a mediocre rebounder compared to most of the players i mentioned............hes one of the least skilled big men on a contender
Wow someone else see's it :applause: :applause:

[stalkerforlife]

Westbrook will be exposed while Durant is out.

The Durant haters love to build Westbrook up to meet their agenda.

[navy]

Ibaka is a very good role player. And his impact is huge in the right situation because he makes players fear driving. But he cant create for himself or anyone else and if you put a stretch 4 you render him damn near useless. He has no offensive game if you move him center so you really could put in anyone at 5 to stretch the floor and not be punished . Same reason why Perkins is so terrible vs the Heat.

This is why the thunder would never beat the Heat: Lebron, Battier, Bosh made Ibaka and Perkins useless.

Also why Diaw and Bonner were so effective last year vs the Thunder.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Westbrook will be exposed while Durant is out.

The Durant haters love to build Westbrook up to meet their agenda.
Eh Westbrook is a top 3 PG and top 10 player
its only the nikkas who was saying he was the best PG or a top 3 player thats gonna look like dummies
i hope he does well tho

[NZStreetBaller]

So is it settled then??? Are people going to stop believing that westbrook is the alpha on this team?? That this team is stacked even without durant???

Are we finally going to give durant the credit he deserves making this team what it is today???

[navy]

So is it settled then??? Are people going to stop believing that westbrook is the alpha on this team?? That this team is stacked even without durant???

Are we finally going to give durant the credit he deserves making this team what it is today???

it's the preseason. nothing is settled.

But no doubt Durant is better than Westbrook.

[tpols]

LMAO better impact than Tim Duncan? Boris Diaw impacts the game more than Ibaka. As evidenced by him playing against both Spain and OKC (who Ibaka plays for) in which he came out on top playing for both a superior and inferior team.
Tim Duncan was not a power forward last year.. He has been the spurs center for a while.

Boris is one of the most underrated players in the league playing in his role.. He isn't a traditional PF though.. He plays on the perimeter as a passer/setup guy and doesn't bring any traditional big man defense at all. He's like a sf/pg hybrid.

Ibaka was also injured in that series.. But OKC looked night and day with and without serge. He brings a ton of energy heart and strength to their team.

[andremiller07]

Tim Duncan was not a power forward last year.. He has been the spurs center for a while.

Boris is one of the most underrated players in the league playing in his role.. He isn't a traditional PF though.. He plays on the perimeter as a passer/setup guy and doesn't bring any traditional big man defense at all. He's like a sf/pg hybrid.
No he's a PF which is what he played on the Spurs and which is what he played for France, it's also what he played for the Suns when he was in his prime. Boris Diaw defends PF's and C's more than he defends SF's (he defends them when they try play small ball at the 4). What do you mean doesn't bring any traditional big man defense? He's a excellent man to man defender in the post much better than Ibaka and draw's charges really well.

Who cares what his skillset is it's what position you play, it's like saying Tony Allen is not a SG cause he can't shoot.....

[tpols]

No he's a PF which is what he played on the Spurs and which is what he played for France, it's also what he played for the Suns when he was in his prime. Boris Diaw defends PF's and C's more than he defends SF's (he defends them when they try play small ball at the 4). What do you mean doesn't bring any traditional big man defense? He's a excellent man to man defender in the post much better than Ibaka and draw's charges really well.

Who cares what his skillset is it's what position you play, it's like saying Tony Allen is not a SG cause he can't shoot.....

Yea he's been utilized at the 4 in small ball lineups centered around the three ball for his passing. Suns spurs etc.. You couldn't plug him into any teams PF slot.. Their defense and rebounding would suffer too much. We're talking about a 4 rpg player here as a power forward. It only works on teams that run an unorthodox style.. He's a great player but I'd take serge over him for traditional power forward role.

By traditional big man defense I mean paint/rim protection

[Joyner82reload]

Westbrook scored a very efficient 14 points on 16 shots(37.5%) vs Utah compared to his first few games without Durant

Westbrook also compiled as impressive +/- of -20 in 27 minutes, but you expect noting less facing an elite Utah unit at home in OKC.

[Graviton]

Ibaka is a pretty useless piece of shit on his own, can only hit WIDE OPEN mid range shots and dunks. Overrated defender that is mediocre at man-to-man, face up post, and pick n roll defense. Can only block players from the weakside, also jumps at every pump fake known to mankind. Got assraped by Diaw in both the NBA and FIBA. Usually gets destroyed by any halfway decent big man, especially stretch 4s and guys that can actually pass and use their brains to shot fake.

Then we have other completely useless trashbags like Perkins, Thabo, and everyone else outside Reggie and Collison. Morrow may be ok too.

This team is gonna have some issues without Durant.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Ibaka is a pretty useless piece of shit on his own, can only hit WIDE OPEN mid range shots and dunks. Overrated defender that is mediocre at man-to-man, face up post, and pick n roll defense. Can only block players from the weakside, also jumps at every pump fake known to mankind. Got assraped by Diaw in both the NBA and FIBA. Usually gets destroyed by any halfway decent big man, especially stretch 4s and guys that can actually pass and use their brains to shot fake.

Then we have other completely useless trashbags like Perkins, Thabo, and everyone else outside Reggie and Collison. Morrow may be ok too.

This team is gonna have some issues without Durant.
Yup. Exactly. 0 ball handling or passing ability as well. Im glad at least some ppl can actually understand the nuances of the game and what each player brings.

[andremiller07]

Ibaka is a pretty useless piece of shit on his own, can only hit WIDE OPEN mid range shots and dunks. Overrated defender that is mediocre at man-to-man, face up post, and pick n roll defense. Can only block players from the weakside, also jumps at every pump fake known to mankind. Got assraped by Diaw in both the NBA and FIBA. Usually gets destroyed by any halfway decent big man, especially stretch 4s and guys that can actually pass and use their brains to shot fake.

Then we have other completely useless trashbags like Perkins, Thabo, and everyone else outside Reggie and Collison. Morrow may be ok too.

This team is gonna have some issues without Durant.
Preach my brother preach, Grav is the only realistic Thunder fan on this board.

[KG215]

Preach my brother preach, Grav is the only realistic Thunder fan on this board.
:oldlol:

Right, because in order to be a realistic Thunder fan, one must go also go over the top in evaluating Ibaka's game and come to the conclusion he's essentially, at best, an average player.

I don't think Ibaka is a top 5/All-Star caliber PF, but I sure as hell don't think he's as bad as you and Graviton make him out to be. In his role, with OKC at full strength, he's a damn good player who has a pretty solid impact on the game.

[russwest0]

Westbrook scored a very efficient 14 points on 16 shots(37.5%) vs Utah compared to his first few games without Durant

Westbrook also compiled as impressive +/- of -20 in 27 minutes, but you expect noting less facing an elite Utah unit at home in OKC.

Yikes. This team has fallen apart without Durant. If they lose a bunch of games to start the season he'll be a shoe in for the MVP award after they won almost 60 games last year w/ no Russ half the time.

[mrpibb]

To be fair, when they play their starters, Utah has been punking teams.

[NZStreetBaller]

it's the preseason. nothing is settled.

But no doubt Durant is better than Westbrook.

thar right there deserves its own thread:applause:

[Dresta]

Those are mostly former Heat fans, now Cavs fans.

And I agree so much with what you're saying. I don't think there's a better team to be a 3rd/4th option on than behind Westbrook and Durant. They put so much pressure on the defense that it can make a Jackson or Ibaka look very good at times, but honestly they are kind of mediocre compared to the rest of the league's 3rd/4th best players.
What a load of bullshit. Last years playoffs showed, pretty unambiguously, how big an impact Ibaka has on that Thunder team.

And Westbrook is massively overrated on this site: he's certainly not a top 5 player in my estimation. He can dominate when he's bullying a smaller point guard like CP3 or Tony Parker etc. BUT as soon as teams switch their best perimeter defender onto him he tends to really struggle. And without KD he'd be seeing the league's best perimeter defenders day-in, day-out. It's not like he can make up for this with 1st-rate playmaking skills either.

[MaxFly]

A. It's preseason... let's see what adjustments are made for the regular season.

B. It's Durant... of course they are worse. They're missing the league MVP. Again... let's see what adjustments are made for the regular season.