Worst player with whom you can win, and best player with whom you can't?

[fpliii]

Two questions:

1) Who is the worst player you can win titles with as your best player under ordinary circumstances?

2) Who is the best player you can't win titles with as your best player under ordinary circumstances?

Ordinary circumstances here meaning, not a super stacked supporting cast, not an overly weak league/conference/set of playoff opponents.

EDIT: Either present league or all-time is fine.

[Suguru101]

Them being the best player on a 2011 Mavs kind of team?

Worst (you can win with) - Russell Westbrook.

Best (who can't win) - Melo

[T_L_P]

All time?

Maybe someone like Pippen

Best player you can't win with is someone like the Pistol or Chris Mullin

[riseagainst]

this thread will not end well.

:oldlol:

[ImKobe]

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mehnylZOJ71qcv9vp.gif

[tpols]

depends on team strength right? You can put any fringe all star player on a team like the spurs and win titles.. Like If you took tony parker out and replaced him with goran dragic or something he could be the best player on that team..

[Mass Debator]

Give us a sample ordinary squad.

[SugarHill]

Them being the best player on s 2011 Mavs kind of team?

Worst (you can win with) - Russell Westbrook.

Best (who can't win) - Melo

Somewhere in New York, fresh had a sudden rush of anger and he's not sure why.

[fpliii]

For the record I don't have any particular player in mind, so hoping it doesn't devolve into a Kobe/LeBron/MJ troll fest.

Wade and Pippen were suggested when I spoke with a few other people, so I want to see how this board feels.

Give us a sample ordinary squad.
Squad with maybe a supporting/secondary all-star, and well-rounded role players.

95 Rockets, First Threepeat Bulls, some of the Spurs teams, etc.

[Nets fan 93]

Somewhere in New York, fresh had a sudden rush of anger and he's not sure why.
:oldlol:

[StephHamann]

Them being the best player on a 2011 Mavs kind of team?

Worst (you can win with) - Russell Westbrook.



http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/kobe-laugh.gif

He couldn't even win with a far superior team (2012 Thunder) how the hell is Westbrooke winning with a 2011 Mavs kind of team?

[Genaro]

1) Who is the worst player you can win titles with as your best player under ordinary circumstances? Look like it's Kwhai Leonard

2) Who is the best player you can't win titles with as your best player under ordinary circumstances? CP3

[mehyaM24]

tim duncan post 2005 (just surround him with other HOFers that playmake and defend)

best player? maybe melo. too inconsistent of a player to seriously build around.

[ArbitraryWater]

1) Who is the worst player you can win titles with as your best player under ordinary circumstances? Look like it's Kwhai Leonard

2) Who is the best player you can't win titles with as your best player under ordinary circumstances? CP3

Kawhi will go down greater than Ben Wallace IMO...

But look at the teams that won in the 70's, besides Wilt/Kareem/Havlicek/Frazier, mostly guys that aren't even top 50...

[SugarHill]

Kawhi will go down greater than Ben Wallace IMO...

But look at the teams that won in the 70's, besides Wilt/Kareem/Havlicek/Frazier, mostly guys that aren't even top 50...
:biggums:

[ArbitraryWater]

:biggums:

Wallace isn't top 50.. right?

I see Kawhi being a Pippen lite player.

Got all the tools, not as skilled of a playmaker though.

[GrapeApe]

Are the bad boy Pistons too "stacked" to qualify? Maybe Isiah Thomas? I guess if the '04 Pistons don't count Isiah's Pistons wouldn't either. Maybe Dennis Johnson from the '79 Sonics?

[kshutts1]

Tried to look at it logically, and failed. Pretty much just looking at the 25th or so best player in the league for "best you can win with" but that's assuming a well- built and coached roster.
For instance, I could certainly see a fully healthy Hawks team winning it all. Obviously not favorites, but with Horford, it's possible. And where's he rank in best players? 15? 20?
Or what about Charlotte? Again, not likely. But if Chicago beats Cleveland in a tough 7 game series, I think Charlotte would have a shot against Chicago. And, let's be real, the Spurs will get old... won't they? Ever? Anyway, Stephenson is, like Horford, top 20.

I don't know. Super hard question to answer. In today's league, I think that Stephenson, Dragic, Lawson, Wade, Kobe.. that tier of player... is the "worst" that can win a title as The Man.
All time? Probably the same group of guys. I don't have the knowledge of the "average" star from earlier decades, but the above guys are certainly just average stars at this point.

The best to lose? Chris Paul. And it's not his fault. I love his game, he's a fabulous player. But anyone who's game is about making those around him better will struggle to lead a team to a title as the best player. If Paul wins a title, Griffin will be the best player.
For all time, same as above. Chris Paul, John Stockton.. not their faults, though.

[Milbuck]

Tried to look at it logically, and failed. Pretty much just looking at the 25th or so best player in the league for "best you can win with" but that's assuming a well- built and coached roster.
For instance, I could certainly see a fully healthy Hawks team winning it all. Obviously not favorites, but with Horford, it's possible. And where's he rank in best players? 15? 20?
Or what about Charlotte? Again, not likely. But if Chicago beats Cleveland in a tough 7 game series, I think Charlotte would have a shot against Chicago. And, let's be real, the Spurs will get old... won't they? Ever? Anyway, Stephenson is, like Horford, top 20.

I don't know. Super hard question to answer. In today's league, I think that Stephenson, Dragic, Lawson, Wade, Kobe.. that tier of player... is the "worst" that can win a title as The Man.
All time? Probably the same group of guys. I don't have the knowledge of the "average" star from earlier decades, but the above guys are certainly just average stars at this point.

The best to lose? Chris Paul. And it's not his fault. I love his game, he's a fabulous player. But anyone who's game is about making those around him better will struggle to lead a team to a title as the best player. If Paul wins a title, Griffin will be the best player.
For all time, same as above. Chris Paul, John Stockton.. not their faults, though.I don’t know if CP3 falls under normal circumstances though..he hasn’t been at his best for years now. I certainly think 2007-2009 CP3 could’ve been a championship centerpiece. Replace him on the 2011 Bulls for Rose and I don’t know, they might win it all. That 5 game series was a lot closer than 5 games. And CP3’s skill set, IQ, and experience won’t get locked up by Lebron.

[ArbitraryWater]

[QUOTE=Milbuck]I don

[SHAQisGOAT]

Worst player with whom you can win:
Extremely tough to give a "good" answer... I mean, you can go off on hypotheticals but I can also bring up the facts and mention teams like the 2004 Pistons or the 1979 SuperSonics.
Hard to say because it depends heavily on how the team's constructed.
Not with a super stacked roster? I don't man, do you consider the 1978 Bullets as a super stacked roster? I don't think so, and they've won with Elvin Hayes as their best player...

Best player with whom you can't win:
Probably Pistol Pete (in terms of talent/skill).

[kshutts1]

[QUOTE=Milbuck]I don

[Le Shaqtus]

Them being the best player on a 2011 Mavs kind of team?

Worst (you can win with) - Russell Westbrook.

Best (who can't win) - Melo

This

[SugarHill]

Wallace isn't top 50.. right?

I see Kawhi being a Pippen lite player.

Got all the tools, not as skilled of a playmaker though.

I don't think Kawhi will ever reach a level where I'd take him over a prime Ben Wallace, but that's just me.

[scm5]

Worst you can win with: Chauncey Billups. The Pistons weren't necessarily super stacked, but they were well coached and put together.

Best player you can't win with: Kevin Love. I know his career is still young, but it's a damn good thing he's playing with Lebron.

[ImKobe]

Worst you can win with - Kawhi, I'm just basing it off what he did last year. He's not a bad player, but he's far from a superstar or a guy that would carry a team for a full season + Playoffs

HM: Billups, Parker

Best you can't win with - CP3, he's been the best point guard for years and has led the league in steals a ton of times and what not, pretty much does everything, yet it doesn't show in the Playoffs. He seems to be allergic when it comes to getting out of the semis. There's no excuse for that choke he had in OKC. Clippers coulda win that series in 6 if CP3 showed up when it mattered.

I'd also nominate Dwight and Melo.

[T_L_P]

I don't think Kawhi will ever reach a level where I'd take him over a prime Ben Wallace, but that's just me.

Prime Ben Wallace was a top 3 all time defensive player.

[Suguru101]

Prime Ben Wallace was a top 3 all time defensive player.

No, he wasn't.

Russell
Wilt
Jabbar
Walton (for 1-2 years)
Hakeem
Ewing
Howard (2009-11/12)
Robinson
Duncan
Garnett

Some are arguable, but all have a case and at least half are definitely over him.

[kshutts1]

No, he wasn't.

Russell
Wilt
Jabbar
Walton (for 1-2 years)
Hakeem
Ewing
Howard (2009-11/12)
Robinson
Duncan
Garnett

Some are arguable, but all have a case and at least half are definitely over him.
Prime Wallace is on par with everyone listed, with the * being that I didn't watch Russell, Wilt, Jabbar, Walton.

[Suguru101]

Prime Wallace is on par with everyone listed, with the * being that I didn't watch Russell, Wilt, Jabbar, Walton.

Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, 2009-2011 Dwight and Prime Duncan had more defensive impact than Ben Wallace.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Best player you can't win with is someone like the Pistol

I think I agree with that (like I've stated before)... but again, it's all hypotheticals here.

Let's say that in 1977, Maravich (at his best) had teammates like:
PG - Van Lier / Goodrich(actual teammate, but relatively healthy like in 1978)
SG - Pistol
SF - Billy Knight
PF - Bobby Jones
C - Swen Nater
And with Larry Brown coaching them, doing his best to make Pete work within the team's interests and flow of the game...
I wouldn't call that a super stacked roster but it's clearly very well built around Maravich with everything working to his strengths/weaknesses, and a fine coach at the helm, say they have a good bench too.
Definitely capable of going all the way that season, although Portland was an extremely tough matchup, even Philly... Brown's Nuggets took the Blazers to 6 games that year, with not as good of an overall team as that (on paper ofc, given that they have a similar bench).

So, again, questions like these are always tough to answer.

[T_L_P]

No, he wasn't.

Russell
Wilt
Jabbar
Walton (for 1-2 years)
Hakeem
Ewing
Howard (2009-11/12)
Robinson
Duncan
Garnett

Some are arguable, but all have a case and at least half are definitely over him.

Eh, I'm taking Wallace over all those except Russell and maybe Hakeem (the non-gambling, fundamental one).

Jabbar doesn't really belong in the above group imo. Garnett wasn't an alltime great interior defender, which is by far the most important part of the court to defend. Not gonna act like I know enough about Wilt to mention him. Robinson, Duncan and Walton are certainly close though.

I mean, look at some of these RAPM numbers:

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2002.html
http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2003.html
http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2004.html
http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2005.html
http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2006.html

Top 5 every year, number 1 in 06, even with a negative rating on offense. Just a complete game-changer on the other end of the floor.

[smoovegittar]

1.) Russell Westbrook
2.) Dwight Howard.

took me about 5 seconds...

[Milbuck]

1.) Russell Westbrook
2.) Dwight Howard.

took me about 5 seconds...
You can definitely build a championship team around 2010-11 Dwight Howard. It's a shame he was brought down by the back injury and his minimal skill progress...but back then with the right coach and right team, he could do it. SVG was a great coach for him but the team wasn't maximized in 2011 They definitely could've done better. Swap 2010-11 Dwight Howard in for Marc Gasol on the 2012-13 WCF Grizzlies..they definitely win it all imo, and he's the best player. You'd probably have to ditch one or two of their solid role players to make salaries work, but the difference between peak Dwight and 2013 Marc is enough to compensate. Marc made 14 million in 2013..Dwight 19 million. So maybe drop Keyon Dooling and Austin Daye, combined 6 million for 2012-13.

Mike Conley / Jerryd Bayless / Tony Wroten
Tony Allen / Wayne Ellington / Tony Wroten
Tayshaun Prince / Quincy Pondexter
Zach Randolph / Darrell Arthur / Marreese Speights
Dwight Howard / Ed Davis / Marreese Speights

With Dwight at 2011 MVP-level form? That defense would be filthy, like all-time great filthy. That team is knocking off the Spurs and beating Miami.

[Fire Colangelo]

You can definitely build a championship team around 2010-11 Dwight Howard. It's a shame he was brought down by the back injury and his minimal skill progress...but back then with the right coach and right team, he could do it. SVG was a great coach for him but the team wasn't maximized in 2011 They definitely could've done better. Swap 2010-11 Dwight Howard in for Marc Gasol on the 2012-13 WCF Grizzlies..they definitely win it all imo, and he's the best player. You'd probably have to ditch one or two of their solid role players to make salaries work, but the difference between peak Dwight and 2013 Marc is enough to compensate. Marc made 14 million in 2013..Dwight 19 million. So maybe drop Keyon Dooling and Austin Daye, combined 6 million for 2012-13.

Mike Conley / Jerryd Bayless / Tony Wroten
Tony Allen / Wayne Ellington / Tony Wroten
Tayshaun Prince / Quincy Pondexter
Zach Randolph / Darrell Arthur / Marreese Speights
Dwight Howard / Ed Davis / Marreese Speights

With Dwight at 2011 MVP-level form? That defense would be filthy, like all-time great filthy. That team is knocking off the Spurs and beating Miami.

Not enough 3 point shooting in that team to give Dwight enough room in the post IMO. Randolph and Gasol worked so well because Gasol usually does his work in the high post while Randolph bangs in the low post. Don't really see how Randolph + Dwight would work seeing how Dwight has no range. Not to mention Tony Allen and Prince are not exactly know as premier 3 point shooters (Prince isn't bad, but obviously not as deadly as someone like Rashard/Turk).

They'd be great defensively tho, but very limited offensively.

OT, I think maybe someone like Vince Carter would struggle winning a Championship as the best player on the team.

[ImKobe]

Mike Conley / Jerryd Bayless / Tony Wroten
Tony Allen / Wayne Ellington / Tony Wroten
Tayshaun Prince / Quincy Pondexter
Zach Randolph / Darrell Arthur / Marreese Speights
Dwight Howard / Ed Davis / Marreese Speights

With Dwight at 2011 MVP-level form? That defense would be filthy, like all-time great filthy. That team is knocking off the Spurs and beating Miami.

No, just no. That offense is terrible. On paper it's like the 04 Pistons, but they're not winning with today's rules. Z-BO and Dwight together on O? Dwight is not a great high-post player on offense like Marc is, he can't create much for others. We saw how he struggled alongside Pau. Prince and Allen are horrible shooters, Z-Bo can knock down the mid-range jumper. All the other team would have to do is pack the paint and force them to shoot jump shots. Spurs would knock them off quite easily.

[Sportal]

Would Shaq be an answer to these?

[iznogood]

The worst player you could win with has to be Tyson Chandler. He actually makes Perkins look decent.

[Doranku]

Would Shaq be an answer to these?
:biggums:

No, because Shaq is (obviously) someone you can win with, and he certainly isn't the worst player you can win with.

[stanlove1111]

I think I agree with that (like I've stated before)... but again, it's all hypotheticals here.

Let's say that in 1977, Maravich (at his best) had teammates like:
PG - Van Lier / Goodrich(actual teammate, but relatively healthy like in 1978)
SG - Pistol
SF - Billy Knight
PF - Bobby Jones
C - Swen Nater
And with Larry Brown coaching them, doing his best to make Pete work within the team's interests and flow of the game...
I wouldn't call that a super stacked roster but it's clearly very well built around Maravich with everything working to his strengths/weaknesses, and a fine coach at the helm, say they have a good bench too.
Definitely capable of going all the way that season, although Portland was an extremely tough matchup, even Philly... Brown's Nuggets took the Blazers to 6 games that year, with not as good of an overall team as that (on paper ofc, given that they have a similar bench).

So, again, questions like these are always tough to answer.


Maravich proved during his entire career and that includes college that he added very little vague to a basketball team.. Sometimes his teams would have been better without him. he is the first one that should be taken off the 50 greatest players list.

[ArbitraryWater]

This question is too broad IMO....

If we would actually do down the years? okay..

But come on, we could build a team around Howard RIGHT NOW, that would win it all....

Rose
Harden
Kawhi
Aldridge/Dirk
Howard

...

[T_L_P]

This question is too broad IMO....

If we would actually do down the years? okay..

But come on, we could build a team around Howard RIGHT NOW, that would win it all....

Rose
Harden
Kawhi
Aldridge/Dirk
Howard

...

And that's an unbelievably stacked team. We're imagining it's like 00 Lakers with [insert player] replacing Shaq or maybe something a little better.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Maravich proved during his entire career and that includes college that he added very little vague to a basketball team.. Sometimes his teams would have been better without him. he is the first one that should be taken off the 50 greatest players list.


I agree, that's why I mentioned him in the 1st place. Dude had crazy talent but his intangibles were the other way around.

Pete was treated as a star since early on; he really honed his skills to the max since a child and "regular" basketball got "boring" to him so he was too overflashy. In college he was then coached by his father who let him do whatever he wanted, that didn't help as he never understood the concept of playing as a team, and he was clueless many times on D. All of the previous took a lot from his terrific talent.

The Hawks were actually better before they drafted him, and they had some really good players there. Tbh, he also didn't fit there in many "ways", though.

Pete was a player who needed a team to be upmost built around him, to make his most impact felt... He finally had that in New Orleans but his teammates weren't good, period. I mean, in his best year (1977) his best teammates were players like Jim McElroy, EC Coleman, Nate Williams, Otto Moore... Most people never even heard of those guys, including many people that know their basketball history.
Read this before about that season...

You can say this was Maravich's peak season, as he led the league in scoring with 31.1 PPG, was 3rd in MVP voting and made the All-NBA 1st team. He was also 12th, in the league, in APG and top5 in RPG amongst guards. He scored 40 or more points 13 times as the Jazz went 10-3, and he scored 30 or more points 39 times as the Jazz went 25-14. He scored 36.4 PPG on 34 wins and 26.6 on 39 losses. In New Orleans, he scored 34.2 PPG.
That year he had just a great season, and you can't really put the blame on him, he was doing a lot.

He changed his ways a bit during those later years also, but then when they were starting to click and getting better (addition of Truck Robinson and Slick Watts, old but healthy Goodrich, Rich Kelley coming into his own...) Pete got injured and never was the same afterwards. They were on a 9-game winning streak before he went down.

[Sportal]

:biggums:

No, because Shaq is (obviously) someone you can win with, and he certainly isn't the worst player you can win with.

Was this the case with the Magic? What if Shaq didn't have Kobe or Wade?

[RidonKs]

u can win with anybody u can lose with anybody thats why teams have twelve guys dumb thread