Myth - Players, not Coaches win Championships

[I<3NBA]

i don't understand why this myth persists. after what Pop demonstrated just last season, i would think it would be evident that coaches are more important to winning championships than players.

coaching trumped talent in the 14 Finals. that's the truth.

[mehyaM24]

both are myths. you need a steady balance of both to compete for titles.

i truly believe pop is the GOAT coach though. guy basically has a euroleague team dominating in the nba.

[Smoke117]

i don't understand why this myth persists. after what Pop demonstrated just last season, i would think it would be evident that coaches are more important to winning championships than players.

coaching trumped talent in the 14 Finals. that's the truth.

Picks the greatest finals demolitiojn of all time...itz was the coach, coach!@ laomafaomaf :yaohappy:

[Harison]

You need both. Although its more about players talents, but coaching genius can turn bronze into gold and win against all odds, like Larry Brown in '04 or Pops.

[sportjames23]

Is the coach setting picks or hitting the jumper? I don't recall Pop posting up Lebron in the Finals.

Nah, a coach is only as good as his players. Ya'll think Pop or Phil can coach a team like say, Philly, to the title?

[Joyner82reload]

Is the coach setting picks or hitting the jumper? I don't recall Pop posting up Lebron in the Finals.

Nah, a coach is only as good as his players. Ya'll think Pop or Phil can coach a team like say, Philly, to the title?

Just as a team is only as good as its coach to a certain degree.

[Milbuck]

Is the coach setting picks or hitting the jumper? I don't recall Pop posting up Lebron in the Finals.

Nah, a coach is only as good as his players. Ya'll think Pop or Phil can coach a team like say, Philly, to the title?
Literally no player by himself in NBA history is taking last year's Philly team to a title, so it's unfair to somehow use that against one coach.

I think it's pretty obvious that Pop was the Spurs' MVP last year. No one individual player on that team has a bigger impact on what they do and the success they had last season than Pop. You can replace every player on that team some way or some form and still win a championship. There is literally one coach, maybe two that approach Pop's ability as a coach, and even then you're almost certainly not winning it all.

If we're gonna compare one coach to his entire roster of players...obviously. But elite coaches can have just as much impact as star players..obviously excluding all time talents like Jordan, Magic, Bird, Shaq Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Durant, etc.

[Timmy D for MVP]

I completely disagree. Coaches can be the difference between teams, and can increase the production of their team greatly, but the players are far more important and I can sum it up in what I hope to be a pretty easy way:

If you put all of the personnel in the NBA into a pot and have a draft when does Pop go?

Granted in this scenario there is no one left to make the selections... I didn't think this through. :oldlol: But I would wager that Pop would be selected after the franchise making players.

[SCdac]

Eric Spoelstra the sole reason behind Heat's championships too?

[Joyner82reload]

I completely disagree. Coaches can be the difference between teams, and can increase the production of their team greatly, but the players are far more important and I can sum it up in what I hope to be a pretty easy way:

If you put all of the personnel in the NBA into a pot and have a draft when does Pop go?

Granted in this scenario there is no one left to make the selections... I didn't think this through. :oldlol: But I would wager that Pop would be selected after the franchise making players.

I think OP meant players on the team as a whole, not an individual player.

[oarabbus]

I completely disagree. Coaches can be the difference between teams, and can increase the production of their team greatly, but the players are far more important and I can sum it up in what I hope to be a pretty easy way:

If you put all of the personnel in the NBA into a pot and have a draft when does Pop go?

Granted in this scenario there is no one left to make the selections... I didn't think this through. :oldlol: But I would wager that Pop would be selected after the franchise making players.


I dont think you're giving them nearly enough credit. Lose Pop for McHale, Mark Jackson, Mikes Woodson or Brown, hell another dozen or two coaches and the Spurs probably don't even make it to the Finals, much less win it.

On the other hand, switch Tony Parker with John Wall or a number of other PGs last year and I think Spurs could still have a ring. With Al Jefferson or Marc Gasol instead of Timmy, Spurs have a ring last year. 2014 Spurs with Scotty Brooks? I don't think so.

And to answer your draft question, I sure hope you'd take Pop real early in a draft. Pop has 18 seasons with a .600 or better record. Only one losing season EVER.

[Budadiiii]

How do Durant and Westbrook continue to win so many games with arguably the worst coach in the league and average role players?

It blows my ****ing mind.

They are the two best players in the world. If you don't think so then you simply just DON'T KNOW SHIT ABOUT BASKETBALL. Period.

[I<3NBA]

How do Durant and Westbrook continue to win so many games with arguably the worst coach in the league and average role players?

It blows my ****ing mind.

They are the two best players in the world. If you don't think so then you simply just DON'T KNOW SHIT ABOUT BASKETBALL. Period.
did i stutter, or do you just suck at reading?

did i say "games" or did i say CHAMPIONSHIPS

yeah that's right. read fool!

how many times have i seen you say OKC will never win a championship as long as Brooks is the coach?

fkn retard.

great players can take your team to the Finals, but only a true coach can get you over that bump.

[Budadiiii]

did i stutter, or do you just suck at reading?

did i say "games" or did i say CHAMPIONSHIPS

yeah that's right. read fool!

how many times have i seen you say OKC will never win a championship as long as Brooks is the coach?

fkn retard.
What? I didn't even read the OP. My post wasn't a direct response to you, it was a free thought that sorta relates to the thread title.

:facepalm

You think I was being sarcastic or something?

[imnew09]

Pat Riley is a great example of coaches win championship. And Scott Brook is a great example of great players do not win championships

But C'mon now, Rick Carlisle, Phil, Pop, are capable coaches that take good role players to championship

[Dresta]

Another one is: the team with the best player who can make 1v5 plays down the stretch will win the series.

[Timmy D for MVP]

I dont think you're giving them nearly enough credit. Lose Pop for McHale, Mark Jackson, Mikes Woodson or Brown, hell another dozen or two coaches and the Spurs probably don't even make it to the Finals, much less win it.

On the other hand, switch Tony Parker with John Wall or a number of other PGs last year and I think Spurs could still have a ring. With Al Jefferson or Marc Gasol instead of Timmy, Spurs have a ring last year. 2014 Spurs with Scotty Brooks? I don't think so.

And to answer your draft question, I sure hope you'd take Pop real early in a draft. Pop has 18 seasons with a .600 or better record. Only one losing season EVER.

But on the other side of the coin you aren't giving the players enough credit. No that team doesn't win with Jefferson instead of Timmy. No they do not win with Wall instead of Parker.

I would take Pop early. But he'd damn sure not going first. And that would seem to give the players more importance since Pop is, I think, unquestionably the best at what he does.

The NBA is the most player driven league there is.

[dreamwarrior]

listening to the huddles i can't tell what exactly an nba coach does other than motivational speaking. i rarely see coaches holding the clipboard these days. nba coaches seem to be a lot less involved in the games than say nfl or mlb coaches. if pop is so great how could they have lost in 13 with a better team?

[Doranku]

You think Spo was the reason the Heat won b2b, not prime Bron/Wade/Bosh? :biggums:

[JohnMax]

We have seen several teams improve dramatically after hiring new coach

Tom Thibodeau and Chicago
Steve Kerr and Golden State

[ImKobe]

coaches are the brains behind the team, but players play and win games. OKC has been to an NBA Finals and just went to the WCF, and they have one of the worst coaches in the league.

[Doranku]

We have seen several teams improve dramatically after hiring new coach

Tom Thibodeau and Chicago
Steve Kerr and Golden State
:biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

[Derka]

Its not all one way or the other. Both are necessary.

[MP.Trey]

Wow Myth actually said that? F*ck that guy!

[moaz]

I am not sure about that. Even a great coach needs (great) players to win.

What I'm sure about is:
Coaches can lose championships.

xx#@@!!&^%#$ you Avery Johnson.

[Taller than CP3]

Pop gets the absolute best out of each and every single player he has. He exposes players of talents they never even knew they had. Turns Diaw and Patty Mills into bonafide superstars.

In that rare case, it's coach over players.

I'm not even sure Phil Jackson could have done what Pop did with the Spurs.

[T_L_P]

Take Chip away and let's see how good Pop looks.

If you're gonna say coaching is more important, it needs to be the entire coaching staff (and the FO).

[riseagainst]

OP is a dumbass fakkit.

[ralph_i_el]

Good coaching is very valuable. The Spurs don't win last season if Randy Wittman is their coach.

[La Frescobaldi]

In the original thread from a few years back we were talking about using rings to say how great a player is..... but it fits here too...


Winning rings is like a 3 legged stool. You gotta have these 3 legs to win a championship:

* Talent
* System/Coaching
* Injuries

If any one of those legs breaks, the stool falls. You do not get to pass Go, you do not get to collect $200... you do not get a championship.

It makes no sense to say one leg is more important than the other, because if any leg breaks, that stool won't bear weight.

***********************************

You can see examples of this in any season. Probably every season.

2010 - Kendrick Perkins breaks his knee in the Finals, the Celtics lose.
Now it could be debated whether the Celtics were going to win that series, but did anyone think they were going to win without Perk?

2011 - the Heat have a monster so-called Big 3 lineup... but lose to Dallas's smoother system. Spoelstra, in my opinion, didn't have a system in place, and he wasn't a strong enough coach to keep the motivation level high enough to finish.

88-89 Bulls had a great lineup, but they didn't have Phil Jackson. System/coaching cost them against the Pistons. Doug Collins, in my opinion, couldn't control his team.... and in 90, PJ was there but it took a full year to get rampaging egos to run his system.

The '71 Lakers also had a monster, so-called Big 3 lineup, with Baylor, West, and Chamberlain.... But Baylor & West both missed the entire playoffs, drawing DNP - injury.... and lost to Kareem's Bucks.

90s Shaq-Penny Magic got destroyed by injuries.

*********************

All three factors are out of the control of any individual player, no matter how great he is.

Using rings as a measurement of individual greatness is absurd.

[oarabbus]

But on the other side of the coin you aren't giving the players enough credit. No that team doesn't win with Jefferson instead of Timmy. No they do not win with Wall instead of Parker.

I would take Pop early. But he'd damn sure not going first. And that would seem to give the players more importance since Pop is, I think, unquestionably the best at what he does.

The NBA is the most player driven league there is.

Duncan is a legend, an all time great, but let's not act like his impact this past season was anything like his first couple rings. You mean to tell me that Marc Gasol, Joakim Noah, DeMarcus Cousins, wouldn't have won the ring on the Spurs last year? I find it hard to believe.

[T_L_P]

Duncan is a legend, an all time great, but let's not act like his impact this past season was anything like his first couple rings. You mean to tell me that Marc Gasol, Joakim Noah, DeMarcus Cousins, wouldn't have won the ring on the Spurs last year? I find it hard to believe.

Gasol? Probably. He's the only non-superstar who could have replaced Duncan with and we still probably would have won.

DeMarcus Cousins? Apparently the Nets staff were appalled at how big of a head case he was. Chemistry was everything with last year's Spurs team, and replacing the best teammate/leader in the league with arguably one of the worst would be terrible.

Not to mention the universal gap on defense between the two. Not to mention DMC wanting the ball for himself every possession (I heard that's why he wanted Isiah gone). :confusedshrug:

Also, his impact wasn't close to his first 4 rings. He was still a top 2-3 player (at worst top 5) in 05 and 07.