Lets say Kobe wins the championship in 04 and 08 and was 7/7 in NBA Finals

[Imtheman]

Would us ISH users rank him #1 above Jordan?

What would it take for a superstar now a days to surpass Jordan as far as popularity and the GOAT?

[BigBoss]

Hes already the GOAT

[K Xerxes]

Useless hypotheticals...

But I suppose we're assuming he played more sensible bball in 04 and didn't chuck them out of the series? In which case Shaq gets another FMVP. We can give him the FMVP in 08 if we assume they somehow beat the Celtics with him playing out of his mind.

Comparing accolades: 7 rings, 4 FMVPs, 1 MVP vs 6 rings, 6 FMVPs, 5 MVPs.

No, hombre.

Comparing individual talent, level of play, dominance of the game... Jordan still wins that

[aj1987]

Useless hypotheticals...

But I suppose we're assuming he played more sensible bball in 04 and didn't chuck them out of the series? In which case Shaq gets another FMVP. We can give him the FMVP in 08 if we assume they somehow beat the Celtics with him playing out of his mind.

Comparing accolades: 7 rings, 4 FMVPs, 1 MVP vs 6 rings, 6 FMVPs, 5 MVPs.

No, hombre.

Comparing individual talent, level of play, dominance of the game... Jordan still wins that
Don't forget the DPOY.

[NZStreetBaller]

4 peat then three peat as the man ..... jeeez ATLEAST be tie with jordan.

[Warfan]

4 peat then three peat as the man ..... jeeez ATLEAST be tie with jordan.

:biggums: :roll:

[ImKobe]

He'd have a better Finals record than MJ, but people would try to discredit him because of lack of MVPs and scoring titles...And say he needed Shaq, GP, Malone, Gasol to win his rings regardless

tbh lack of MVPs comes from Lebron James and Steve Nash, Kobe deserved it in 2006 and if Lebron wasn't in the same era, he would have also won in 09...

MJ was lucky to play in a weaker era in terms of all-time greats. Yes, there was Hakeem, but he didn't take anything away from Michael, only was on top when MJ retired (how convenient) and Duncan came right after MJ retired...

Kobe's had to share his era with Duncan, Shaq, Lebron, AI, Wade, KG, Dirk, Durant... that's 3 top 10 all-time players and others that are arguable for top 20...MJ came in when Magic and Bird were in their primes, but when MJ hit his, they were too old and had injuries and other issues...

Just saying, Lebron, putting up those stats in MJ's era would have won some MVPs over him, and AI/T-Mac/KD would have taken some scoring titles away from him. Not to downplay the 90s, but let's be honest here for a minute.

Kobe's era features a much slower pace and tougher defenses (early 2000s) than the 90s..Kobe had to go through the Spurs, Pacers, Pistons, Celtics, 4 of the GOAT defenses in one decade and the only one he never got another chance to beat were the Pistons. Also wasted his prime on some shit teams. Imagine a Lakers-Pistons redux in 05, Kobe going up against Shaq & Wade in the Finals, Kobe vs Lebron 07... We missed out on a lot of great potential moments due to a poor Lakers FO.

[Mr Feeny]

He'd have a better Finals record than MJ, but people would try to discredit him because of lack of MVPs and scoring titles...And say he needed Shaq, GP, Malone, Gasol to win his rings regardless

tbh lack of MVPs comes from Lebron James and Steve Nash, Kobe deserved it in 2006 and if Lebron wasn't in the same era, he would have also won in 09...

MJ was lucky to play in a weaker era in terms of all-time greats. Yes, there was Hakeem, but he didn't take anything away from Michael, only was on top when MJ retired (how convenient) and Duncan came right after MJ retired...

Kobe's had to share his era with Duncan, Shaq, Lebron, AI, Wade, KG, Dirk, Durant... that's 3 top 10 all-time players and others that are arguable for top 20...MJ came in when Magic and Bird were in their primes, but when MJ hit his, they were too old and had injuries and other issues...

Just saying, Lebron, putting up those stats in MJ's era would have won some MVPs over him, and AI/T-Mac/KD would have taken some scoring titles away from him. Not to downplay the 90s, but let's be honest here for a minute.

Kobe's era features a much slower pace and tougher defenses (early 2000s) than the 90s..Kobe had to go through the Spurs, Pacers, Pistons, Celtics, 4 of the GOAT defenses in one decade and the only one he never got another chance to beat were the Pistons. Also wasted his prime on some shit teams. Imagine a Lakers-Pistons redux in 05, Kobe going up against Shaq & Wade in the Finals, Kobe vs Lebron 07... We missed out on a lot of great potential moments due to a poor Lakers FO.


You're right. Kobe is unfortunate to be playing the same era as Lebron james, who's a better player:applause:

[ImKobe]

You're right. Kobe is unfortunate to be playing the same era as Lebron james, who's a better player:applause:

Lebron James is the better talent, but his Playoff career has been disappointing. It's like comparing Peyton Manning to Tom Brady. Peyton's obviously the better fantasy player and always looks great in the regular season, but if you're a gambler you're betting against him in the Superbowl. 2/5 Finals record is pathetic for someone as talented as Lebron. 2011 Finals will forever hold his legacy back.

[Mr Feeny]

Lebron James is the better talent, but his Playoff career has been disappointing. It's like comparing Peyton Manning to Tom Brady. Peyton's obviously the better fantasy player and always looks great in the regular season, but if you're a gambler you're betting against him in the Superbowl. 2/5 Finals record is pathetic for someone as talented as Lebron. 2011 Finals will forever hold his legacy back.


Why are we bringing team records in when we're comparing individuals?

In the Playoffs, Lebron has outperformed Kobe comfortably. The greatest elimination game and game 7 player of all time should not be disrespected with a comparison to a chucker.

Their finals numbers say it all. One shoots 40% and is abysmal; the other is LaKing.

Bow down to la king , b!th! :lol

[dubeta]

Would he still be shooting 40% ?

[K Xerxes]

tbh lack of MVPs comes from Lebron James and Steve Nash, Kobe deserved it in 2006 and if Lebron wasn't in the same era, he would have also won in 09...

Kobe's had to share his era with Duncan, Shaq, Lebron, AI, Wade, KG, Dirk, Durant... that's 3 top 10 all-time players and others that are arguable for top 20...MJ came in when Magic and Bird were in their primes, but when MJ hit his, they were too old and had injuries and other issues...


You've mentioned Hakeem, but missed out Barkley (1 MVP), Malone (2 MVPs), DRob, young Shaq (still dominant), Drexler, Ewing, Stockton, GP Nique, Penny, not to mention his own team mate Pippen. Deeper pool of talent, and most of them are lower on the all time list than their ability indicates BECAUSE of Jordan.

If Kobe played in Jordan's era, he would have nowhere near the same number of MVPs. Even discounting the obvious voter fatigue that prevented Jordan from deservedly winning every MVP from 88, Kobe put up inferior stats and inferior two-way dominance. This is inarguable.


Just saying, Lebron, putting up those stats in MJ's era would have won some MVPs over him, and AI/T-Mac/KD would have taken some scoring titles away from him. Not to downplay the 90s, but let's be honest here for a minute.

Pretty irrelevant, there's a difference in 4 MVPs here and 9 scoring titles. Blame the competition, but that's some stretching you're doing.

Also Kobe's only MVP came in a contest with Chris Paul. Out of 18 or so years in the league, his only MVP was debatable. You're blaming competition for all that? Jordan was simply more dominant for more seasons.

[Stringer Bell]

He still was never as good as Jordan as an overall player.

[Asukal]

If he did all those? I'd have to put him top 3.

But as it stands, he is good enough to get to the top 10 and that in itself is very special.

[Psileas]

If 7/7 is that much more important than 5/7 that it seals any kind of deal, regardless of rest of career/level of individual dominance, then Havlicek=GOAT. His individual dominance may not be as high as Kobe's in the same way Kobe's isn't as high as Jordan's (or Wilt's or Magic's or Kareem's or Russell's for that matter), but he has already 1-upped the "elusive" 7/7.

[LAZERUSS]

If 7/7 is that much more important than 5/7 that it seals any kind of deal, regardless of rest of career/level of individual dominance, then Havlicek=GOAT. His individual dominance may not be as high as Kobe's in the same way Kobe's isn't as high as Jordan's (or Wilt's or Magic's or Kareem's or Russell's for that matter), but he has already 1-upped the "elusive" 7/7.

Havlicek is always forgotten in these "team" conversations. People forget that he was probably Bostons's best player in Russell's last two seasons (and certainly was in his last season), and that he then went on to win two more rings after Russell retired. He also played on teams that went 56-26, 56-26, 60-22, and 68-14 AFTER Russell.

[B-hoop]

Havlicek is always forgotten in these "team" conversations. People forget that he was probably Bostons's best player in Russell's last two seasons (and certainly was in his last season), and that he then went on to win two more rings after Russell retired. He also played on teams that went 56-26, 56-26, 60-22, and 68-14 AFTER Russell.

Damn, he sure should be over Wilt in the all time rankings.

[LAZERUSS]

Damn, he sure should be over Wilt in the all time rankings.

Using 'team" accomplishments, his 8-0 record in his Finals appearances puts him well ahead of Jordan, Kareem, Kobe, Duncan...and virtually everyone else not named Russell.

Of course, in his 11 seasons in the league with Wilt, he never once finished ahead of him in the MVP balloting.

[SouBeachTalents]

Nope, would have been 0/4 in Finals MVP's playing with this dude

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/teamsites/images/legacy/lakers/ts_110601shaqretires650.jpg

[Psileas]

Havlicek is always forgotten in these "team" conversations. People forget that he was probably Bostons's best player in Russell's last two seasons (and certainly was in his last season), and that he then went on to win two more rings after Russell retired. He also played on teams that went 56-26, 56-26, 60-22, and 68-14 AFTER Russell.

For real, his 1968 playoff productivity was incredible. Here are the best games he produced within 3 rounds:

35/9/9
16/12/13
31/10/12
28/9/9
29/13/8
29/9/10
21/12/8
31/10/8
40/10/7

These are Big-O numbers. He either got or got close to a triple-double in 8 games and got 40 points in another. Are you kidding me...:bowdown:

[LAZERUSS]

For real, his 1968 playoff productivity was incredible. Here are the best games he produced within 3 rounds:

35/9/9
16/12/13
31/10/12
28/9/9
29/13/8
29/9/10
21/12/8
31/10/8
40/10/7

These are Big-O numbers. He either got or got close to a triple-double in 8 games and got 40 points in another. Are you kidding me...:bowdown:

:applause:

BTW, Sam Jones had some incredible playoff runs, as well. Yet both he and Hondo seem to be ignored whenever Russell's "winning" is mentioned. Even Russell, himself, acknowledged that Jones saved their playoff runs SIX times in his career.

[COnDEMnED]

Would us ISH users rank him #1 above Jordan?

What would it take for a superstar now a days to surpass Jordan as far as popularity and the GOAT?
Still not good enough to rank above Kareem at #1, maybe closer to Jordan at number 2.

[G0ATbe]

He already is, but yes. He still would be in that case.

[dubeta]

Instead in engaging in imaginary hypotheticals, lets analyse an actual scenario which can happen


If Spurs win next year and Parker is FMVP that would give him 5 rings and 2 FMVPs

Look familar? exact same accolades as Kobe, we would seriously have to reconsider Kobe's rank after that, especially if he misses the playoffs again for a third straight year.

[chazzy]

Top 5 easily

[mehyaM24]

no. because his level of play would NOT warrant that. if this hypothetical were a reality, top 5 would be the HIGHEST i could rate him.

[guy]

Well if his level of play didn't change much and it was lets say Shaq and Gasol that stepped their game up, then it wouldn't really change much. But if he was the difference? His 04 and 08 Finals were pretty terrible. Had he had great series, and they won? I'd say his legacy would and should be much greater. Not to mention, the 04 Pistons and 08 Celtics were easily Kobe's best Finals opponents. The other 2 Finals opponents that he had great Finals against, the 02 Nets and 09 Magic, weren't really noteworthy at all (the 02 Nets literally might be the worst Finals team of the last 30 years or so).

[guy]

He'd have a better Finals record than MJ, but people would try to discredit him because of lack of MVPs and scoring titles...And say he needed Shaq, GP, Malone, Gasol to win his rings regardless

tbh lack of MVPs comes from Lebron James and Steve Nash, Kobe deserved it in 2006 and if Lebron wasn't in the same era, he would have also won in 09...

MJ was lucky to play in a weaker era in terms of all-time greats. Yes, there was Hakeem, but he didn't take anything away from Michael, only was on top when MJ retired (how convenient) and Duncan came right after MJ retired...

Kobe's had to share his era with Duncan, Shaq, Lebron, AI, Wade, KG, Dirk, Durant... that's 3 top 10 all-time players and others that are arguable for top 20...MJ came in when Magic and Bird were in their primes, but when MJ hit his, they were too old and had injuries and other issues...

Just saying, Lebron, putting up those stats in MJ's era would have won some MVPs over him, and AI/T-Mac/KD would have taken some scoring titles away from him. Not to downplay the 90s, but let's be honest here for a minute.

Kobe's era features a much slower pace and tougher defenses (early 2000s) than the 90s..Kobe had to go through the Spurs, Pacers, Pistons, Celtics, 4 of the GOAT defenses in one decade and the only one he never got another chance to beat were the Pistons. Also wasted his prime on some shit teams. Imagine a Lakers-Pistons redux in 05, Kobe going up against Shaq & Wade in the Finals, Kobe vs Lebron 07... We missed out on a lot of great potential moments due to a poor Lakers FO.

First of all, Jordan lost MVPs to Magic Johnson, falling 2nd to him in MVP voting twice. And you could easily argue that Jordan deserved MVPs in 1990, 1993, and 1997. So Kobe "deserving" MVP in 2006 but not winning isn't something that really matters. The idea that Kobe had a competitive disadvantage in comparison to Jordan is really laughable :oldlol: