16 Team All-Time Draft Regular Season Thread

[wally_world]

After the conclusion of our All-Time Draft (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=355857), we will now host a voting to determine the seeding for the upcoming playoffs.
Please select the NINE best assembled teams, and group them into 3 categories (Tier 1, Tier 2, Tier 3) of 3 teams each. You are to take into account talent, chemistry, coaching, and in general how well the team will work as a unit.


Tier 1 teams would get 3pts each, Tier 2 teams would get 2pts each, and Tier 3 teams would get a point each. The team with the most points will be the top seed etc. Tiebreaker would be the draft order (1st pick gets higher seeding).
You can vote for your own team (this is to give an advantage to active GMs).


VOTING IS OPEN TO EVERYONE. However, the requirement is that you have >100 post counts, and your account must be registered before Sept 14. Troll votes would not be taken into account (subjected to veto by the 3 commissioners).
Voting will end on 28 Oct 14 (Tuesday), 1600hrs EST.

You can also vote for team awards here (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=356946)


http://i59.tinypic.com/35hmjad.jpg*i listed the years to the best of my abilities, GMs do update me the missing years if you wish to have it included and i will make ONE edit in 24hrs


GMs please feel free to post and tell the voters why they should vote for your team. I will also be posting links to the respective teams' breakdowns. Good luck, and may the odds be ever in your favour.

[wally_world]

TEAM BREAKDOWNS

Team Barkleynash - http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10647153&postcount=975

Team Wally - http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10648548&postcount=1016

Team Hangintheair - http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10648602&postcount=1018

Team Kobesfinger - http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10648757&postcount=1021

Team MP Trey - http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10648849&postcount=1024

Team Buffalo - http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10649303&postcount=1028

Team Gotter - http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10649856&postcount=1031

Team Iamgine - http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10649894&postcount=1032

Team Kshutts - http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10650330&postcount=1039

Team Raiderfan - http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10651048&postcount=1044

Team Millbuck - http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10653075&postcount=1049

Team Random - http://insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10658016&postcount=57

[MP.Trey]

Cool. I'll give my overall thoughts and votes later tonight or tomorrow night. Good job wally.

[raiderfan19]

Why would the higher pick get the higher seed? If anything shouldn't it be the other way?

[wally_world]

Why would the higher pick get the higher seed? If anything shouldn't it be the other way?

Well my reasoning is the higher pick probably has the bigger star, and it is more likely a team with a star gets more regular season wins. But if you guys feel it should be the other way around I'm fine with changing it. I came up with that because its just an easy way to deal with tiebreakers.

[raiderfan19]

In no order tier 1(kurple, kshuts, raiderfan19) tier 2(about buckets, buffalo, hangin) tier 3(Barkley, mp trey , random) these are so close. If anyone makes a good enough argument I could be convinced to change.

And I'm ok with that I suppose

[hangintheair]

Are we allowed to vote for our own team?

[raiderfan19]

Yes

[Milbuck]

No we shouldn't be allowed to vote for our own team..

But lmfao at Raider putting his own team in tier 1. My team would slaughter your team. Like the 2001 Lakers against the WC.

[wally_world]

No we shouldn't be allowed to vote for our own team..

But lmfao at Raider putting his own team in tier 1. My team would slaughter your team. Like the 2001 Lakers against the WC.

It is to reward active GMs. If someone doesnt vote and you cant vote for your own team, the guy has a higher chance of getting votes. If everyone votes, it wouldnt make a difference at the end of the day.

[Milbuck]

It is to reward active GMs. If someone doesnt vote and you cant vote for your own team, the guy has a higher chance of getting votes. If everyone votes, it wouldnt make a difference at the end of the day.
My bad I didn't read the OP thoroughly enough. Yeah that's fine. Still lol'ing at raider's team in tier 1 though.

[KobesFinger]

I think you shouldn't be able to vote for your own team because a somebody you have as a borderline tier three team may miss out on a point which could be the difference.

Say I put myself in T1 then choose 8 others, and in the last tier there were four teams I could've given a point to, one team would miss out because I put myself in T1, pushing a potential T1 into T2, and a potential T2 into T3. Do you follow?

Anyway:

T1 - Kurple, Raider and Buffalo: best defensive teams and IMO Raider's is the best overrall
T2 - Kshutts, Milbuck and Trey - good teams but not the elite
T3 - Coldsoul, Gotter and iamgine - interesting teams, especially iamgine's with the triangle

[raiderfan19]

No we shouldn't be allowed to vote for our own team..

But lmfao at Raider putting his own team in tier 1. My team would slaughter your team. Like the 2001 Lakers against the WC.
I expect everyone to put their own team in tier 1.

And as for your team, I absolutely love dirk, my favorite player ever. But your team would get run off the court.

[raiderfan19]

I think you shouldn't be able to vote for your own team because a somebody you have as a borderline tier three team may miss out on a point which could be the difference.

Say I put myself in T1 then choose 8 others, and in the last tier there were four teams I could've given a point to, one team would miss out because I put myself in T1, pushing a potential T1 into T2, and a potential T2 into T3. Do you follow?

Anyway:

T1 - Kurple, Raider and Buffalo: best defensive teams and IMO Raider's is the best overrall
T2 - Kshutts, Milbuck and Trey - good teams but not the elite
T3 - Coldsoul, Gotter and iamgine - interesting teams, especially iamgine's with the triangle
I agree with this but IMO it balances out if everyone puts their team tier 1. I'd be fine with us not voting for ourselves though.

[barkleynash]

All 16 teams make the playoffs so everyone is getting a shot regardless. If you don't want to give your self a vote that's your call but we made an executive decision not to reward any potential inactivity.

[wally_world]

Surprised I haven't gotten a vote yet :( But I think it is easy to overlook my team because I don't exactly have lots of popular superstars, I think I would thrive more in h2h situations.

But to try and bring in a few votes, I'll bring up a few points. My team is led by Bill Russell, the greatest winner and locker room leader OF ALL TIME, along with the core of a very cohesive and tough Detroit Bad Boys. There is absolutely no way Russell and Isiah will let their team go down, and I have the kind of team that will dog it out with defense and heart.

[wally_world]

As for the Millbuck/Raider heated debate (I like that, playoff atmosphere already), this could really make an interesting matchup. I hope you guys matchup in the playoffs.

Anthony Davis is one of the few rare players that you can actually put on Dirk. And I think KD is gonna have a field day on any of Mill's wing defenders. BUT Millbuck has a huge edge in the backcourt, and the leadership on Team Raider is a little suspect. DRob/KD both very passive leaders and the rest of your core is really young and unproven.

[Milbuck]

Tier 1: Buffalo, Milbuck, Cold Soul

Tier 2: Kurple, Buckets, MP Trey

Tier 3: Wally, Hangin, Barkleynash

People are sleeping on Barkley's team...Magic/Dr J is a filthy duo, and Sabonis is getting underrated here. I have that team in 3rd tier but it's super super close.
Surprised I haven't gotten a vote yet :( But I think it is easy to overlook my team because I don't exactly have lots of popular superstars, I think I would thrive more in h2h situations.

But to try and bring in a few votes, I'll bring up a few points. My team is led by Bill Russell, the greatest winner and locker room leader OF ALL TIME, along with the core of a very cohesive and tough Detroit Bad Boys. There is absolutely no way Russell and Isiah will let their team go down, and I have the kind of team that will dog it out with defense and heart.
I think your bench lacks offensive firepower. Lin and Jet are nice players but they're gonna get wrecked by some of the other 2nd unit backcourts like KJ/Alvin Robertson for hangin, Nate McMillan and Manu, Rose and B-Roy, etc. Same goes for Horry/Laimbeer with opposing PF/C combos like McDyess/Divac, Kemp/Parish, LMA/Oakley, etc.

I really, really love your starting 5 though. People are sleeping on Russell and Isiah here. Extremely balanced..spacing might be a small issue but the defense will be legendary. I think your team is on the border between 2 and 3.

[kurple]

have an exam on tuesday and i'm mad far behind, but i'll try to write my tactics tomorrow.

minute distribution is in the old thread. but some would depend on the matchup ofc

[Gotterdammerung]

No one likes my team at all either.
:violin:

Tier 1
Gotterdammerung: the smartest, of course. :kobe:
BuffaloBraves: the 1993 Bulls on 'roids.
Kshutts: Best backcourt and with Gilmore, the best overall.
Wally World: Backcourt synergy with insane frontcourt? Might work.
Cold Soul: David Thompson gets PT & Baylor becomes sixth man results in better balance
Barkley Nash: Two Pantheon guys in Dr. J & Magic. 'Nuff said.

Tier 2
Millbuck: Not physical enough to be elite.
MP Trey: Nash + Olajuwon = fast break + halfcourt geniuses.
About Buckets: Decent with Walton and Sir Charles, but not enough.
RaiderFan 19: Nice length, will be great as defensive pressing team. No clutch guys tho
HangintheAir: talented, but chemistry is skewered.
Kurple: Not physical enough.

Tier 3
Imagine: Strong frontcourt, but not a good fit for the Triangle.
Random Guy: New School.
Demitri: Nice athleticism, Carlisle might get them to play over their heads.
KobesFinger: Not versatile enough on offense.

[barkleynash]

Why my squad should be in your top tier:

#1 Magic as the Best Point Guard to ever play elevates the rest of the teams play. He gets the ball to the right guy at the right time where they will have the best chance of success.

#2 Great offensive balance- We have great post scoring (Sabonis, Petit, Magic), legit shooting from deep (*Oscar, Kawhi 38%, Magic 38%, Klay 41%, and *Sabonis), above the rim finishers (*Dr J, McDyess, Kawhi). It's very hard to guard and game plan for a versatile team like this.

#3 Elite rebounding and passing that will trigger the Best Fast Break in the League: Sabonis and Petit are both beasts on the glass and both have some of the best outlet passing in the history of the game, especially Sabonis. Dr J with 11 rpg Magic 6.6 rpg, and Kawhi 6.2 rpg are all very good rebounders as well which rounds out a very balanced rebounding starting lineup and can all obviously get out and run!

#4 Chemistry: I feel chemistry is vital for any teams success, especially over a full season. This team has defined roles and playing time that the players would legitimately accept from the stars, all the way down to the role players and bench player rookies.

#5 More Chemistry: Also I purposely mostly drafted players that didn't need to be ball dominant but were still elite finishers and/or shooters so there would be no fighting over the rock. Magic wold decide and decide wisely who was getting the ball.

#6 Freaky Big Hands...that should be reason enough. Also I'd like to propose a trade for Giannis (1 of Dr J's illegitimate sons...)

Minutes Breakdown:

PG: Magic 37min/ Lenny Wilkens 11 min
SG: Leonard 29 min/ Schmidt 19 min/ Rookie Klay in for injuries/extreme foul trouble or garbage time
SF: Dr J 37 min/ Scmidt 11 min
PF: Pettit 36 min/ McDyess 12 min
C: Sabonis 36 min/ McDyess 12 min/ Rookie Divac in for injures/extreme foul trouble or garbage time

[barkleynash]

No one likes my team at all either.
:violin:

Tier 1
Gotterdammerung: the smartest, of course. :kobe:
BuffaloBraves: the 1993 Bulls on 'roids.
Kshutts: Best backcourt and with Gilmore, the best overall.
Wally World: Backcourt synergy with insane frontcourt? Might work.
Cold Soul: David Thompson gets PT & Baylor becomes sixth man results in better balance
Barkley Nash: Two Pantheon guys in Dr. J & Magic. 'Nuff said.

Tier 2
Millbuck: Not physical enough to be elite.
MP Trey: Nash + Olajuwon = fast break + halfcourt geniuses.
About Buckets: Decent with Walton and Sir Charles, but not enough.
RaiderFan 19: Nice length, will be great as defensive pressing team. No clutch guys tho
HangintheAir: talented, but chemistry is skewered.
Kurple: Not physical enough.

Tier 3
Imagine: Strong frontcourt, but not a good fit for the Triangle.
Random Guy: New School.
Demitri: Nice athleticism, Carlisle might get them to play over their heads.
KobesFinger: Not versatile enough on offense.

love the overall breakdown but you gotta narrow it down to just 3 teams per tier. thx

[Milbuck]

As for the Millbuck/Raider heated debate (I like that, playoff atmosphere already), this could really make an interesting matchup. I hope you guys matchup in the playoffs.

Anthony Davis is one of the few rare players that you can actually put on Dirk. And I think KD is gonna have a field day on any of Mill's wing defenders. BUT Millbuck has a huge edge in the backcourt, and the leadership on Team Raider is a little suspect. DRob/KD both very passive leaders and the rest of your core is really young and unproven.
I agree it's a good matchup..But I disagree on KD having a field day against my wings..Mullin definitely. But this is one of those match ups I mentioned in my breakdown where Butler would be playing huge minutes, to strengthen my perimeter defense. No one's locking KD down but Jimmy can do as good a job as anyone this side of Pippen, Artest, etc to contain him. And Kobe can help out with some trapping defense, with Eddie Jones not being a huge offensive threat at SG. I think Dirk/Aldridge/Oakley would wear down AD/Detlef/Chandler though, and D-Rob isn't much better than Ewing to close that gap. But Penny/Kobe would murder Eddie Jones and Mookie.

[raiderfan19]

You don't have a go to mismatch in that game. As great as dirk/Kobe are we can cause them problems and Kobe would shoot you out of the game.

On the other hand my team can go at whomever mullin is guarding, put dirk in pick and rolls(or Ewing, even young Ewing isn't athletic enough to hedge and recover on prime drob) and if it's Ewing you have no rim protection behind him. On the other hand all of my guys can press because we have two elite shotblockers(and that prevents us from being in a situation like you have where if you put my center in a pick and roll Iv still got another shotblocker

[raiderfan19]

And I disagree about Kobe murdering Eddie. Vehemently disagree

[Gotterdammerung]

love the overall breakdown but you gotta narrow it down to just 3 teams per tier. thx
Just three?

:biggums:

[kshutts1]

I like the "vote for your own team to reward active managers" wrinkle.

Though I'd rather it be... "if you vote, don't vote for yourself, but you automatically get 3 points".

I know I'm not in the hierarchy here, but I think that's a better way to go about it.

I appreciate those that are voting for my team. I love it, and I'll talk about it later (don't have the time now), but I just thought someone would harp on my relative lack of historical talent.

Anyway, I just wanted to touch base to say I have not forgotten, and I'll be on later to do some serious reading/work to make my votes.

[barkleynash]

Tier 1: Barkleynash, Kshutts, Iamgine

Tier 2: Buffalo, MP Trey, Wally

Tier 3: Hangin, Cold Soul, Kurple

[wally_world]

Just three?

:biggums:

3 teams per tier so 9 in total. Including yourself of course.

[Cold soul]

Tier 1

Gotterdammerung
Cold soul
Buffalo

Tier 2

Millbuck
MP Trey
HangintheAir


Tier 3

KobesFinger
Barkleynash
Kurple

[raiderfan19]

It's interesting to see what different people value.

Wally my biggest reason for voting against you was the by your team makeup you take away your best players greatest strength. Russell is one of the great rim protectors ever but with Yao he's going to have to play further away from the basket and be the more perimeter big. He can do that but it takes away from his shotblocking

[Gotterdammerung]

Modified tier votes:

Tier 1
Gotterdammerung: the smartest, of course. :kobe:
BuffaloBraves: the 1993 Bulls on 'roids.
Kshutts: Best backcourt and with Gilmore, the best overall.

Tier 2
Wally World: Backcourt synergy with insane frontcourt? Might work.
Cold Soul: David Thompson gets PT & Baylor becomes sixth man results in better balance
Barkley Nash: Two Pantheon guys in Dr. J & Magic. 'Nuff said.

Tier 3
Millbuck: Not physical enough to be elite.
MP Trey: Nash + Olajuwon = fast break + halfcourt geniuses.
About Buckets: Decent with Walton and Sir Charles, but not enough.

The rest:
RaiderFan 19: Nice length, will be great as defensive pressing team. No clutch guys tho
HangintheAir: talented, but chemistry is skewered.
Kurple: Not physical enough.
Imagine: Strong frontcourt, but not a good fit for the Triangle.
Random Guy: New School.
Demitri: Nice athleticism, Carlisle might get them to play over their heads.
KobesFinger: Not versatile enough on offense.

[Buffalobraves]

Teir 1

BuffaloBraves, Milbuck, barkleynash

Tier 2

Kshutts, Kurple, MPTrey

Teir 3

Gotter, Raiderfan, Wally

[raiderfan19]

I have the second best perimeter scorer ever(and the best who actually used a jumper) I'm not sure how that translates to no clutch guys but oh well

[Gotterdammerung]

I have the second best perimeter scorer ever(and the best who actually used a jumper) I'm not sure how that translates to no clutch guys but oh well
He's hit a few, indeed.

My criteria for clutchness is indeed different than yours:
Clutch in game winning situations. And by situations I don't mean a meaningless game during the dog days of the regular season. :oldlol:

Had u picked a legit clutch guy like the Boston strangler, I'd reconsider.

[raiderfan19]

For the record since like I said my team strategy was to build a team with very little weaknesses, I'm going to make an argument for my team by pointing out the Achilles heels that most of you have. If I don't include you, it means I don't think you have a glaring Achilles heel.

Millbuck-athletecism and defense
Iamgine-ballhandling and front court athleticism
Barkley-shooting in your actual rotation and I don't think petit could handle any of the new school pfs
Buckets-I don't think you have a straight up Achilles heel but your d and shooting don't look like they can both be on the court at the same time.
Wally-shooting/positioning
Random-perimeter d. Steph and Reggie were terrible defenders
Demitri-shooting but I like the team other than the fact that no one in your starting lineup has more than 15 ft range.
Buffalo-spacing/shooting

[raiderfan19]

He's hit a few, indeed.

My criteria for clutchness is indeed different than yours:
Clutch in game winning situations. And by situations I don't mean a meaningless game during the dog days of the regular season. :oldlol:

Had u picked a legit clutch guy like the Boston strangler, I'd reconsider.
Terry porter hit a bunch of big shots.

Either way I think that narrative is overrated but it is what it is.

[kshutts1]

Here's the deal... I'll do my best to give breakdowns using my personal important team benchmarks. I won't be reading team breakdowns unless I feel like I need to. Most of this is pretty straight forward though. If what I say is in direct conflict to your breakdown, please tell me. I'll 100% do my part then.

Milbuck - I like it. A lot. Until I see the bench. We've gone over this before, but so many guards that need to have the ball to be effective. I think Rose was a bad choice. Would have been better off with Steve Kerr, IMO. A sniper, that can play off ball.
Spacing - Very good.
FT Shooting - Elite.
Chemistry - Again, too many players needing the ball. But egos should be mostly fine, so not bad, but just OK.
Defense - Better than OK. Not good.
Shot Creation - Potentially the best in our draft.
Versatility - Very good.
Rebounding - Good. Unique in that, aside from your guards, it's below average. But they make up for it.
Athleticism - Couple elite guys, then mostly "good enough" guys. Good.
Overall feeling - Again, I like it.. but some definite question marks. I expect it to be a top 8 team (not counting myself, cuz with the system in place I'm obligated to first-tier myself), but we'll see.

MPTrey - Congratulations on having the only player I had to look up to know ANY information about... Reggie Lewis. Speaking of, your team would have been better off with more of a role player in that SF spot.
Spacing - Very good. Minimal front court shooting holds you back.
FT Shooting - Decent. You have some high percentage shooters, but they're not high volume enough.
Chemistry - Without knowing much about Lewis, I'd say you're one of the better teams with chemistry.
Defense - 4 very strong defenders. As a team, very good.
Shot Creation - Considering where you started.. Nash and Olajuwon, this is surprisingly weak. OK.
Versatility - Great. Except for PGs, everyone can play multiple positions.
Rebounding - Good.
Athleticism - Great. I feel I need to explain that I define Nash and Hondo as great athletes. May not be jumpers, but they're athletes.
Overall feeling - Put Battier or Drazen in the starting lineup and I'd like it a lot more. But it's a good squad.

Buffalo - Defensive juggernaut with some shooting sprinkled in. Love it.
Spacing - Good to great. Webber is a nice touch.
FT Shooting - OK. Jordan is the only real good one, considering volume.
Chemistry - Good. In terms of personalities, I don't like it. Jordan, Payton and Hardaway were all mouthy. They will rub each other the wrong way. In terms of playing styles, I like it.
Defense - Amazing.
Shot Creation - Great.
Versatility - Good. Minimal positional versatility. But a lot of guys can do a lot of things.
Rebounding - Great.
Athleticism - Great.
Overall feeling - Should be easily a Tier 1 team. But again, we'll see.

Gotter -
Spacing - OK, only because almost everyone can shoot.. just not 3s. Players have range, but I see only two players I'd worry about shooting a 3.
FT Shooting - OK.
Chemistry - Great. The only player that somewhat worries me is King, but otherwise it's great.
Defense - Excellent. One of the best.
Shot Creation - Good. I don't like relying on bigs, so maybe I'm biased. Because both starting bigs create for others.
Versatility - Good. Same as Buffalo. Minimal positional, but players can do everything.
Rebounding - Great.
Athleticism - OK. Don't know enough about older players athletic ability. But my assumption is that Stokes, Frazier, Jones, DeBusschere are the only very good athletes.
Overall feeling - Year for Archibald matters a lot. If the lack of 3p shooting didn't scare me so much, I'd say it's a tier 1 team. As it is, should be a top 8.

That's it for tonight. First column done. I'll try to do the rest tomorrow.

[AboutBuckets]

Tier 1
AboutBuckets (duh)
Gotter
Kshutts

Tier 2
Buffalo
Raider
BarkleyNash

Tier 3
Milbuck
Iamgine
Wally

:cheers:

[kshutts1]

For the record since like I said my team strategy was to build a team with very little weaknesses, I'm going to make an argument for my team by pointing out the Achilles heels that most of you have. If I don't include you, it means I don't think you have a glaring Achilles heel.

Millbuck-athletecism and defense
Iamgine-ballhandling and front court athleticism
Barkley-shooting in your actual rotation and I don't think petit could handle any of the new school pfs
Buckets-I don't think you have a straight up Achilles heel but your d and shooting don't look like they can both be on the court at the same time.
Wally-shooting/positioning
Random-perimeter d. Steph and Reggie were terrible defenders
Demitri-shooting but I like the team other than the fact that no one in your starting lineup has more than 15 ft range.
Buffalo-spacing/shooting
Not strong at first glance but I'm surprised you mentioned Buffalo but not Gotter.
Both are similar in that they have a couple of guys with 3p range, but nearly everyone else can hit a 15-18 footer.

For Buffalo in particular, those that can not (Rodman, Thurmond, Allen) two of them don't get in the way.
Rice, Majerle, Jordan, Webber, Hardaway can all hit 18-20 consistently, if not farther.

I'm not fully disagreeing, as I rated him "good to great". But I just don't think it's a glaring issue, either.

[raiderfan19]

Btw just so I'm not only bitching about my team. How is kurple outside anyone's tier 2? His team is ridiculously good. I can see some choices for some other teams depending on preference but I just don't see how he's outside anyone's second and in at least one case, third tier.

[kshutts1]

I have the second best perimeter scorer ever(and the best who actually used a jumper) I'm not sure how that translates to no clutch guys but oh well
When I read that I thought you meant Kobe. Then I see you meant Durant.

I'm likely biased, but I think Oscar is seriously, seriously slept on as a scorer. And a player in general. I have him in my top tier all time..

In no order (hence tiers):
Jordan
Bird
Shaq
Kareem
Wilt
Russell
Oscar
Magic fluctuates between first and second tier for me.

[Cold soul]

I have the second best perimeter scorer ever(and the best who actually used a jumper) I'm not sure how that translates to no clutch guys but oh well

How is Durant second best perimeter scorer ever? I strongly disagree here.

[raiderfan19]

Not strong at first glance but I'm surprised you mentioned Buffalo but not Gotter.
Both are similar in that they have a couple of guys with 3p range, but nearly everyone else can hit a 15-18 footer.

For Buffalo in particular, those that can not (Rodman, Thurmond, Allen) two of them don't get in the way.
Rice, Majerle, Jordan, Webber, Hardaway can all hit 18-20 consistently, if not farther.

I'm not fully disagreeing, as I rated him "good to great". But I just don't think it's a glaring issue, either.
I'm not expecting hardAway to play extended minutes. He sucked defensively. Playing him a lot allievates some of Payton's shooting weakness but it puts you in a situation where you are weakening his greatest strength. Jordan was never a good shooter from more than 15 feet. But that really doesn't matter because hell have the ball in his hand. Rice is an elite all time shooter. No questions asked. But again his second best shooter is only going to sub for him. So you aren't going to have a lot of minutes with multiple guys who can shoot out there and one guy just doesn't do it. Rodman is one of the worst shooters of all time.
Webber can hit jumpers but again he's also awful defensively( despite being one of the 5 most physically gifted players Iv ever seen) so id assume rodman ends up taking a decent amount of his minutes. This team has other strengths that make up for those weaknesses but when 3 of your 5 starters and your most likely biggest minute reserve can't shoot, I'm going to say shooting is a weakness.

If you played that team would you be worried about going zone? I certainly wouldn't

[raiderfan19]

How is Durant second best perimeter scorer ever? I strongly disagree here.
Best combination of volume, efficiency and versatility. Durant is great( not good, great) at literally every part of scoring. Starting in his age 21 season, Durant has avged 29.3 on 49/38/88 .617 true shooting for the last 5 years while his idiot ass coach doesn't even run a legit offense. I'm curious who the other contenders are in some of your opinions. I'll admit I'm not old enough to have seen oscar or west

[iamgine]

Tier 1

Cold Soul
Wally World

Tier 2

Buffalo
Hangintheair
Barkleynash

Tier 3

MP Trey
Millbuck
Kurple

[Buffalobraves]

Not strong at first glance but I'm surprised you mentioned Buffalo but not Gotter.
Both are similar in that they have a couple of guys with 3p range, but nearly everyone else can hit a 15-18 footer.

For Buffalo in particular, those that can not (Rodman, Thurmond, Allen) two of them don't get in the way.
Rice, Majerle, Jordan, Webber, Hardaway can all hit 18-20 consistently, if not farther.

I'm not fully disagreeing, as I rated him "good to great". But I just don't think it's a glaring issue, either.

Kshutts nailed it. My team wouldn't be able to rain threes but I think our shooting is good enough to keep defenses honest and unable to just pack the paint.

[raiderfan19]

For the record buffalo I think your team is very good(i put them in my second tier) but I don't see you having much in the way of shooting that gets on the court much

[Buffalobraves]

For the record buffalo I think your team is very good(i put them in my second tier) but I don't see you having much in the way of shooting that gets on the court much

I'd agree with that. Its tough to list Thunder Dan as a shooter when he's only playing 5 minutes a night. But the strategy would be more about the defense leading to fast breaks and a half court offense based off of MJ getting to the net and Webber from the high or low post. I'd just need Rice and Hardaway to hit open looks if double teams came at either one of those guys.

I appreciate the input though, its good to address the weaknesses.

[raiderfan19]

Yeah. Everyone doesn't have to play the 2014 spurs offense. Like I said your team would be fine.

I'm honestly a little surprised at how many people have left my team out of the tiers completely. I thought I had enough of everything that no one would have my team that low no matter what they valued. (2 MVP efficient 30 ppg scorers, 2 elite shot blockers who were athletic enough to defend pick and rolls and press, 2 all nba defensive perimeter players who can knock down shots when need be or create their own the few times they need to)

[barkleynash]

Barkley-shooting in your actual rotation and I don't think petit could handle any of the new school pfs


Can't question the Pettit judgement call as that's your opinion on something that can't be proved or disproved, but I take major exception at questioning my team's shooting in the rotation: Legendary marksmen Oscar Schmidt 30 min, Arvydas Sabonis 36 min for one of the best big man shooters in the history of the game, 29 min from Leonard who is a solid 38% from 3, great midrange shooting for 36 min from Pettit, and 37min from Magic who shot 38% from 3 in 89-90 the year I chose him (I feel like a broken record protecting Magic haha)

[raiderfan19]

Are you actually giving the holy hand 30 minutes?

Edit given those, I'll retract that and say that your weakness is perimeter defense. Compensating for magic and oscar defensively will be hell.

Edit 2- though like buffalo despite that weakness, I still have you in a tier

[hangintheair]

Tier 1: Hangintheair, BuffaloBraves, BarkleyNash

Tier 2: Kurple, Iamgine, Cold Soul

Tier 3: WallyWorld, Millbuck, Raiderfan

[barkleynash]

Are you actually giving the holy hand 30 minutes?

Edit given those, I'll retract that and say that your weakness is perimeter defense. Compensating for magic and oscar defensively will be hell.

Edit 2- though like buffalo despite that weakness, I still have you in a tier

I figured if I gave Schmidt significant minutes off the bench, and the ultimate green light t let it fly then there would be a better chance he'd accept that role

And yes, I agree our weakness is perimeter D when both Magic and Oscar are rolling together. When that is the case our game plan is to simply outscore the opposition haha. When it is just Magic out there, Kawhi and Dr J will do a solid job on the perimeter to help hide Magic.

[Gotterdammerung]

I'm honestly a little surprised at how many people have left my team out of the tiers completely. I thought I had enough of everything that no one would have my team that low no matter what they valued. (2 MVP efficient 30 ppg scorers, 2 elite shot blockers who were athletic enough to defend pick and rolls and press, 2 all nba defensive perimeter players who can knock down shots when need be or create their own the few times they need to)
I originally had your team in the second tier. Overall I thought it was in the next tier, after the top teams.

I assumed tiers weren't limited to a set number, because they are levels in general. Like GOAT, elite, hall of fame, all-star, etc. Certainly they fluctuate from year to year, decade to decade, era to era.

[Random_Guy]

uhh, i just finished my team analysis lol
any way i can update it?

[Random_Guy]

Ill just throw my analysis in, since I seem a little late to the mix.


PG/SG: Steph Curry 13-14/ Russell Westbrook 12-13
SG: Reggie Miller 89-90/ Steve Kerr 94-95
SF/PF/PG: Lebron James 11-12/Carmelo Anthony 06-07
PF: Pau Gasol 09-10/ Al Horford 10-11
C: Dwight Howard 08-09/ Omer Asik 12-13

Coach: Gregg Popovich
GM: Random_Guy

Minute allocation:
PG: Steph Curry(33)/Russell Westbrook(15)
SG: Reggie Miller(35)/Steve Kerr(13)
SF: Lebron James(34)/Carmelo Anthony(14)
PF/C: Dwight Howard(32)/Pau Gasol(32)/Asik(20)/Hoford(12)


Team Philosophy:
Starting from my second pick (Coach Popovich), I already had a clear idea of the team I am going to build. First things first, the ideal player in my system would be having Tim Duncan, but since he wasn’t on the table any more when I wanted to pick him, I went with the next best player (Lebron) that would fit in the system. It would of course be beneficial to have one of the best post players of all time, however, Popovich’s success comes not from simply throwing the ball down low, but his schemes, the beautiful passing around the perimeter for the wide open three, the pick and rolls, and the occasional inside out game.



Offense:
With one of the best attackers in the game Lebron, and the best shooting backcourt in the tournament, I believe this team will work wonders against other teams. Most of the other teams are frontcourt heavy, so it would be extremely difficult to beat them through post players. It’s easy to assume that you can just say Player A>Player B so we can throw the ball to him all game long for him to score (I actually think a lot of GMs think in this way). However, IMO when all the teams have such an impregnable frontcourt defense, the best possible way to score would be to run sets and not rely on the skills of a single player. Contrary to popular believe I chose Carmelo Anthony not because he can be my go to scorer, but because he is unstoppable of the ball. It’s true that I don’t have any Michael Jordan or Hakeem Olajuwons on my team (though any of my players could go off on any given night), but I do have the means to stop them. In my opinion the same can’t be said for the other teams. Let me put it this way, when playing against other teams, it feels like I am playing against great players, but when playing against mine, it is like playing a legendary system with great players. I also believe I have the best possible players to implement the 13-14 spurs offense. With Miller/Curry, the perimeter 3pt shooting is off the charts. While the spurs are reliant on Parker to create in the paint, I have Lebron who is no less of a passer and a much better slasher. Pau Gasol is a awesome passer and can shoot the midrange, admittedly Howard is not such a great fit in the spurs system, but he mainly there for defensive reasons. Howard is also a great pick and roll player and finisher (in his Magic days), so I believe Pop would still be able to incorporate him into the system.

Defense:
The team in my starting lineup is the most balanced team with sufficient offense and defense. Pau Gasol is very underrated defensively despite the label that he gets on ISH. But if it goes down to having to match up with teams that wants to decide the game through post play, I would go with a line up of Asik/Howard as my starting frontcourt. Some posters might point out the Rocket’s failure, but I believe that is more due the players surrounding them and the Coach’s incompetency then the failure of the system. The rocket’s offense is heavily relient on James Haren bulldozing into the paint and throwing his hands in the air, having twin towers that cant shoot coupled with a back court that can’t either is just a remedy for failure. However, my backcourt is shooting reliant and can stretch the floor, so I believe the offense would still work well despite the incompetency of front court shooting. With the suffocating defense of Howard/Asik/James, good luck driving into the paint.

Possible Lineups:
Curry/Miller/James/Gasol/Howard
Curry/Miller/James/Howard/Asik
Westbrook/Curry/Anthony/Howard/Asik
Westbrook/Miller/James/Hoford/Howard

[Random_Guy]

Looks like I need to start convincing.

Why you should all vote for me. I think its not fair to just discard my team saying it is new school. My team is balanced when you actually include the bench players.

1. As explained in my analysis, my team defensively is enough to match up with any team.
2. Offensively, I believe that in a all time draft, being overly reliant on single players will not be effective.

[barkleynash]

Looks like I need to start convincing.

Why you should all vote for me. I think its not fair to just discard my team saying it is new school. My team is balanced when you actually include the bench players.

1. As explained in my analysis, my team defensively is enough to match up with any team.
2. Offensively, I believe that in a all time draft, being overly reliant on single players will not be effective.

If you had went all in on a small ball lineup with Melo and LBJ at your 2 forward spots then I would've put you in my top 9. I think LBJ could guard/survive vs the majority of the power forwards in the field but none of them could guard either him or Melo which would create huge mismatches. Don't really like Melo or Westy off the pine, Pop has his work cut out for him!

And with all your talent, Kerr should be getting DNP's or no more than 5 min/contest

[Random_Guy]

If you had went all in on a small ball lineup with Melo and LBJ at your 2 forward spots then I would've put you in my top 9. I think LBJ could guard/survive vs the majority of the power forwards in the field but none of them could guard either him or Melo which would create huge mismatches. Don't really like Melo or Westy off the pine, Pop has his work cut out for him!

And with all your talent, Kerr should be getting DNP's or no more than 5 min/contest

The reason I didnt give Russ more minutes over Kerr is because Russ exists in case my back court is overpowered by solo play, AKA teams that have Jordan/bryant etc. I just think russ is a explosive guard off the bench that can provide tenacious defense, but he isnt a good fit for my spurs. Also, despite all my talent, if steve kerr can play 18 minutes on the championship bulls behind mj, i think 14 minutes is okay, but i think i should bump the minutes down a bit. Yeah true I probably should have put Bron as a powerforward, but I still think he would be abused defensively by teams that are front court heavy.:cheers:

[barkleynash]

Yeah true I probably should have put Bron as a powerforward, but I still think he would be abused defensively by teams that are front court heavy.:cheers:

A few pf's could take advantage of him like TD, Dirk, Barkley & Malone but they get destroyed equally or even more so at the other end. Vs the rest of the league your small ball lineup would be deadly. I def wouldn't feel comfortable having Pettit or McDyess guarding LBJ or Melo...

[wally_world]

First of all, can I just say... I AM SO HAPPY TO SEE THE ONGOING EXCHANGES! So much so that I had to find a laptop to log in and join in (I was reading on mobile).

I'm gonna respond to some of the ongoing discussions, then I'm gonna do a personal short breakdown for all the teams, before voting for the teams.



I think your bench lacks offensive firepower. Lin and Jet are nice players but they're gonna get wrecked by some of the other 2nd unit backcourts like KJ/Alvin Robertson for hangin, Nate McMillan and Manu, Rose and B-Roy, etc. Same goes for Horry/Laimbeer with opposing PF/C combos like McDyess/Divac, Kemp/Parish, LMA/Oakley, etc.

I really, really love your starting 5 though. People are sleeping on Russell and Isiah here. Extremely balanced..spacing might be a small issue but the defense will be legendary. I think your team is on the border between 2 and 3.

Yeah I guess my approach for the bench was a little different. I don't really believe in having stars or career starters off the bench (looking at you KJ and Kemp), so talentwise I'm definitely behind. Was really looking at guys with the specific skillsets and intangibles. I don't think it's that bad tho, Terry can light it up, McDaniel had a 20ppg season off the bench, and Laimbeer is a good scoring roleplayer.



I agree it's a good matchup..But I disagree on KD having a field day against my wings..Mullin definitely. But this is one of those match ups I mentioned in my breakdown where Butler would be playing huge minutes, to strengthen my perimeter defense. No one's locking KD down but Jimmy can do as good a job as anyone this side of Pippen, Artest, etc to contain him. And Kobe can help out with some trapping defense, with Eddie Jones not being a huge offensive threat at SG. I think Dirk/Aldridge/Oakley would wear down AD/Detlef/Chandler though, and D-Rob isn't much better than Ewing to close that gap. But Penny/Kobe would murder Eddie Jones and Mookie.

That was what I was hoping to hear :) I like your team more than raider's overall, I think he has some glaring holes. But this may be the kinda series where you can expect AD to limit Dirk to an extent and KD to explode for 2 huge 50pt games and suddenly you're in a game 7.



It's interesting to see what different people value.

Wally my biggest reason for voting against you was the by your team makeup you take away your best players greatest strength. Russell is one of the great rim protectors ever but with Yao he's going to have to play further away from the basket and be the more perimeter big. He can do that but it takes away from his shotblocking

I thought about this, but figured Russell was such a good on-ball defender I was gonna put him on the best big anyways. I watched some old tapes, he actually blocked alot of shots ON BALL, but still had a knack (and the quickness) to alter off ball shots. Also, I have Laimbeer in for half the game where Russell will return to his natural position.



If you had went all in on a small ball lineup with Melo and LBJ at your 2 forward spots then I would've put you in my top 9. I think LBJ could guard/survive vs the majority of the power forwards in the field but none of them could guard either him or Melo which would create huge mismatches. Don't really like Melo or Westy off the pine, Pop has his work cut out for him!

And with all your talent, Kerr should be getting DNP's or no more than 5 min/contest

I agree with BNash here. I really really dislike the Pau/Dwight pairing. You can say it was because MDA screwed them over, but it is still something I'd rather not see. Melo at 4 would cause more mismatches and allow Dwight to thrive more inside. And you have a clear edge in being a modern shooting + athletic/run and gun team, so I thought you should have made that your team.

Team breakdowns coming next!

[wally_world]

Team Millbuck
At first glance, too many ball-dominant players (including your bench guys), and I'm a little skeptical about how minutes would be distributed since you didn't state rotations. I know it will be dependent on matchups, but if this was the regular season, at the end of the season, what kinda mpg can I expect from your players?


Team MP Trey
I like the Sampson/Hakeem/Rudy T chemistry. Shooting might be a slight issue, I think you need to surround Nash/Hakeem with knock down catch and shoot shooters. Also don't see Drazen (as proven in Portland) and Amare accepting/thriving in a bench role.


Team Buffalo
Hard to go against the GOAT. And that crazy defensive unit you can put on the floor wow. But personally I don't like the GP/MJ pairing. Would've went with a better shooting PG, GP thrived with the ball in his hands. Hardaway off the bench a SLIGHT issue, but not enough to spoil the chemistry of your high character team. Webber is a terrific fit too.


Team Gotter
I like this team. Very blue collared and underrated. Great balance, tho I could see some potential issues when playing teams with very good scoring wings. Year of Bob McAdoo would be crucial, MVP version (accepting of a bench role?) or 6th man version? Stokes was a big question mark pick for me. Won't see minutes in that rotation, but he was a #1 guy on his team back then.


Team Iamgine
Very good "system" team, but PG play is definitely weak. Inside defense a little suspect, but you did manage to resolve the blackhole situation by staggering McHale and Moses. A rotation breakdown would better help judge your team because it's a waste to have McHale off the bench.


Team Wally
GOAT gonna GOAT


Team Kurple
Not feeling your team as much as some of the other guys here. Talent in the starting 5 outside of Kareem is definitely lacking. Feels like a very solid, but predictable middle of the pack team.


Team Kobesfinger
I like the CP/KG pairing. Don't like the VC/PG pairing unless you can fill me in on how they are utilised on offense. Overall just lacking abit in talent and versatility. Also, do you not know of any players before the millennium? :oldlol:


Took longer than I thought. Part 2 to come later!

[KobesFinger]

Team Kobesfinger
I like the CP/KG pairing. Don't like the VC/PG pairing unless you can fill me in on how they are utilised on offense. Overall just lacking abit in talent and versatility. Also, do you not know of any players before the millennium? :oldlol:


Took longer than I thought. Part 2 to come later!

The two of them, especially VC can run a two man game when Garnett is in the high post. My starting 5 + McMillan and Iguodala all get steals and/or force turnovers and both Carter and George can lead the break. I tried to make my team versatile but I guess my definition is different to everyone elses.

I know about players from before 2000 but as I was only 5 in 2000, what use is it me picking players who peaked or retired before I was born? I don't like picking players solely off numbers.

[barkleynash]

Team Iamgine
Very good "system" team, but PG play is definitely weak. Inside defense a little suspect, but you did manage to resolve the blackhole situation by staggering McHale and Moses. A rotation breakdown would better help judge your team because it's a waste to have McHale off the bench.

If he loaded up McHale (like I did with Schmidt) and cut down a bit on Cowens minutes and totally bench Daughtery giving Kevin all the back up bigman minutes then I think it would work just fine.

As far as Coop at the pg, I don't hate it nearly as much a I originally did knowing now it's more of a defensive assignment and that that the system (and more importantly probably Bird) will be responsible for the majority of the playmaking

[raiderfan19]

I'm curious what you think my huge holes are

[raiderfan19]

If he loaded up McHale (like I did with Schmidt) and cut down a bit on Cowens minutes and totally bench Daughtery giving Kevin all the back up bigman minutes then I think it would work just fine.

As far as Coop at the pg, I don't hate it nearly as much a I originally did knowing now it's more of a defensive assignment and that that the system (and more importantly probably Bird) will be responsible for the majority of the playmaking
My big question is how does he get the ball across against several of the teams that are built to press

[raiderfan19]

And one last thing on the milbuck matchup, his bench isn't a strength, nor is his chemistry. His lowest mpg player is a 36 mpg Oakley. None of those guys except butler would have been ok coming off the bench, especially Roy let alone being ok with such small amounts of playing time.

[wally_world]

Part 2

Team Barkleynash
Defense is definitely an issue, esp against quick PGs (i think Kawhi can cover PGs, but the really quick ones will give him trouble). The rebounding is magnificent and on the fastbreak this team is unstoppable. In the halfcourt I could see some issues since Magic/Doc both need shooters around them and it's a big team with little spacing. I like Jack Ramsey coaching bigs like Pettit/Sabonis tho, I think they will reach their potential on this team.


Team Random
Mentioned earlier, really really dislike the Pau/Dwight pairing. Not alot of Pop-type players (Westbrook, Melo, Dwight, even Curry to an extent) to fully utilise the system. Would much rather this team go small ball.


Team Coldsoul
Wouldn't have paired Wilt with Baylor, I think they come in each other's ways a little. Stockton doesn't have someone to play PnR with which limits his potential, also rather have Peja/Bell/Thompson starting to spread the floor more than DJ. Expecting a hard time distributing minutes between the bigs too - Wilt, Sheed, Kemp AND Parish?! What are your rotations?


Team Raider
Love the length and the potential to be an up and down defensive team. But my biggest concern is the lack of leadership on this team. DRob and KD both underachievers at that point of their careers. This issue not addressed by the bench either.


Team Aboutbuckets
Very solid team, probably slightly underrated because of the lack of big names. See it as a modified showtime Lakers. No poor shooters in the starting 5 but not great range either, so I don't particularly like the spacing. Would probably be better off bringing Worthy off the pine as a 4 where he can have higher usage, and build around being a running team.


Team Demitri
Unsure of the direction of your team. Wade and Sid too similar, both better off playing with a shooter in the backcourt. I'm guessing Pippen would be running the point? Don't see a good PG for Blake to work with so I think he'll be very underutilised here. Also don't see Rick Barry, prime Zo, and Parker to a certain extent accepting a bench role, esp when the guys playing infront of them aren't much better than they are.


Team Kshutts
Yet to be convinced on the Oscar/West pairing being effective. Talent wise this team could be elite, great assembly of role players as well. However, when being compared to the elite teams, this team is lacking in having a crop of winners. Oscar/West/Malone all underperformed for their talent level, and Adelman isn't the right coach to guide them over the hump. I'm nitpicking at this stage tho, not an issue yet.


Team Hangintheair
I like the core of the team, great pieces around Shaq. Some minor issues would be defense against quick players, Love and KJ accepting the bench role, and the usage of Ron Artest as a starter (always been a terrible off ball player). No problem at this stage tho.

[wally_world]

If he loaded up McHale (like I did with Schmidt) and cut down a bit on Cowens minutes and totally bench Daughtery giving Kevin all the back up bigman minutes then I think it would work just fine.

As far as Coop at the pg, I don't hate it nearly as much a I originally did knowing now it's more of a defensive assignment and that that the system (and more importantly probably Bird) will be responsible for the majority of the playmaking

Yeah lets see his breakdown.

The system is one thing, but you cant run the same thing 82 games a season. When defenses react there would be times where a PG creator would help that team. Perhaps the post is being fronted, the shotclock is running down, leading the fastbreak etc, in addition to facing backcourts that are capable of pressing (as mentioned by raider)



And one last thing on the milbuck matchup, his bench isn't a strength, nor is his chemistry. His lowest mpg player is a 36 mpg Oakley. None of those guys except butler would have been ok coming off the bench, especially Roy let alone being ok with such small amounts of playing time.

That is my question to Millbuck as well. Probably better off with a rookie Roy and before prime Aldridge for that bench role.

Did a short breakdown for your team. Basically just one concern, but a pretty big one in a tournament like this IMO.

[iamgine]

[
Team Iamgine
Very good "system" team, but PG play is definitely weak. Inside defense a little suspect, but you did manage to resolve the blackhole situation by staggering McHale and Moses. A rotation breakdown would better help judge your team because it's a waste to have McHale off the bench.

I thought having Cowens start would be great since he's a great passer. Triangle doesn't need "PG play" so having someone like Nash would be a waste. Regular season rotation should be something like this:

Moses (28) | Cowens (16)
Cowens (12) | Mchale (28) | Bird (8)
Bird (24) | Pierce (22)
Richmond (32) | Cooper (12) | Pierce (4)
Cooper (16) | Fat Lever (32)

[iamgine]

Yeah lets see his breakdown.

The system is one thing, but you cant run the same thing 82 games a season. When defenses react there would be times where a PG creator would help that team. Perhaps the post is being fronted, the shotclock is running down, leading the fastbreak etc, in addition to facing backcourts that are capable of pressing (as mentioned by raider)



Those situations don't need a PG though...I don't get the fascinations with PG. Kobe wasn't a PG and he fulfilled those roles. Well I have Mitch, Fat, Bird, Pierce as guys who solve those situations.

[raiderfan19]

My leader is red Auerbach. The best coach in nba history.

[barkleynash]

My leader is red Auerbach. The best coach in nba history.

That is a good reply and a good start but not the end all to that conversation as a Coach can't do it alone just like a player can't do it alone. Red had Russel afterall, the greatest leader in sports history.

[wally_world]

Ehhh it'll be tough to convince me Red was the reason behind the Celtics dynasty as a coach. Russell was the spiritual leader of the Celtics, Red allowed it to happen, but Russell was the reason why it happened. Sure he was a revolutionary GM and coach, but it had alot less to do with basketball.

[MP.Trey]

On my phone so can't type much out but to address Wally's concerns about Drazen and Amare coming off the bench. As far as Drazen, there's a big difference between averaging 10 mpg than 24+, I think he'd be fine with playing half the game or more but if you don't think so, then I guess that's that. And Amare, remember that he's only 22 years old and will also be playing more than half the game, practically equal minutes to Sampson depending on who's playing better. Both those young guys (Amare, Sampson) need to battle for PT which will keep them both working hard and with a chip on their shoulder. But if you consider the depth quetionable when it comes down to chemistry, then I guess it just comes down to differing opinions.

[MP.Trey]

Plus Nash and Havlicek are two of the greatest jump shooters the game has ever seen, Battier & Petrovic are elite and Lewis and Sampson both have nearly automatic jumpers out to 18-19 feet. I don't see an outside shooting issue

[kshutts1]

Team Kshutts
Yet to be convinced on the Oscar/West pairing being effective. Talent wise this team could be elite, great assembly of role players as well. However, when being compared to the elite teams, this team is lacking in having a crop of winners. Oscar/West/Malone all underperformed for their talent level, and Adelman isn't the right coach to guide them over the hump. I'm nitpicking at this stage tho, not an issue yet.
Not trying to be a smart aleck, but what part needs convincing?
Are they too ball dominant? -- Solved by having low-usage players around them.
Do their games not complement each other well? -- Yes they do.
Is neither one a strong leader? -- I think I have 3 leaders, none more outspoken than the next.
Just read this... West and Oscar were co-captains on the 1960 Gold Medal squad.

And for a final argument... crop of winners? No offense, but seriously?
Players do not need to win titles to be considered winners, IMO.
Karl may be a d-bag of a human being, but on the court he was a winner. It's not like he was Shareef Abdur-Rahim out there.. his team was consistently one of the best in the league.
West went to the Finals NINE times. Kobe is considered a winner with much less.
Oscar led his Milwaukee team to the playoffs six straight times. Won a title later.

Honestly, as soon as you redefine "winner" to include instances where an individual did not win a team title, then you'll see that my team does not lack a winner.

As for Adelman not being the proper coach... I can't argue with that. Not saying it's right, but I just don't know coaching much. That said, Adelman had a beautiful offense in Sacramento, and he managed to incorporate the different strengths of at least three types of players... Webber/Divac as able and willing passers, Bibby/Peja as gunners, and Bobby Jackson/Bibby as fast break run-and-gun players.
I don't know if Adelman was the best choice, but I can guarantee you he was not the worst coach chosen in this exercise.
And for my money, the only coach that actually presents an issue in my mind is Pop. He'll be the only coach I consider when doing team break downs.

[kshutts1]

Plus Nash and Havlicek are two of the greatest jump shooters the game has ever seen, Battier & Petrovic are elite and Lewis and Sampson both have nearly automatic jumpers out to 18-19 feet. I don't see an outside shooting issue
When you, or anyone else, has time, can you please educate me some on Lewis?

Like I said in your breakdown, he's literally the only player I had to look up. The sources I check may not have the information that you/others know.

[wally_world]

Not trying to be a smart aleck, but what part needs convincing?
Are they too ball dominant? -- Solved by having low-usage players around them.
Do their games not complement each other well? -- Yes they do.
Is neither one a strong leader? -- I think I have 3 leaders, none more outspoken than the next.
Just read this... West and Oscar were co-captains on the 1960 Gold Medal squad.

And for a final argument... crop of winners? No offense, but seriously?
Players do not need to win titles to be considered winners, IMO.
Karl may be a d-bag of a human being, but on the court he was a winner. It's not like he was Shareef Abdur-Rahim out there.. his team was consistently one of the best in the league.
West went to the Finals NINE times. Kobe is considered a winner with much less.
Oscar led his Milwaukee team to the playoffs six straight times. Won a title later.

Honestly, as soon as you redefine "winner" to include instances where an individual did not win a team title, then you'll see that my team does not lack a winner.

As for Adelman not being the proper coach... I can't argue with that. Not saying it's right, but I just don't know coaching much. That said, Adelman had a beautiful offense in Sacramento, and he managed to incorporate the different strengths of at least three types of players... Webber/Divac as able and willing passers, Bibby/Peja as gunners, and Bobby Jackson/Bibby as fast break run-and-gun players.
I don't know if Adelman was the best choice, but I can guarantee you he was not the worst coach chosen in this exercise.
And for my money, the only coach that actually presents an issue in my mind is Pop. He'll be the only coach I consider when doing team break downs.

Being ball dominant is one thing, but I think having 2 high usage guards gets in the way of each other a little. Hurts that neither of them played in the pick and roll era to get Malone involved as well. How do their games complement each other? Because West is more of a shooter and Oscar is more of a slasher? Doesn't change the fact both are more effective with the ball in their hands. Again I'm not saying they can't be effective, you've just yet to convince me they'll bring the best out of each other.

If you read my points carefully you'll realise i said your team is lacking winners when compared to the elite teams. When comparing all time greats, everyone is a winner. How do you stand out from that crowd? Be someone that leads his team to multiple championships. Why is Duncan ranked higher than KG, Barkley, Malone? Championships.

I'm not hating on Adelman as an Xs and Os coach, but more of the championship leadership he lacks to take a team with not many winners to the next level. Add that all together and you'll see your team is lacking alot in championship experiences as compared to other elite teams. Again, I'm not saying your team is made up of losers. But that just gave me a reason not to put your team in Tier 1.

[wally_world]

Plus Nash and Havlicek are two of the greatest jump shooters the game has ever seen, Battier & Petrovic are elite and Lewis and Sampson both have nearly automatic jumpers out to 18-19 feet. I don't see an outside shooting issue

Perhaps I should have phrased it a little differently, I didn't mean your team had bad shooters. From what I remember about Hondo and Lewis, neither were really catch and shoot shooters. With Nash running the pick and roll or Hakeem posting up and Sampson in the high post, it takes away alot of the spacing which is why I felt you'd be better off with better catch and shoot shooters rather than guys who take it off the dribble. And while they are fine shooters, neither had 3pt range, which shrinks the court for Nash/Hakeem who both work with space. I also might have mistook Reggie Lewis for Len Bias lol, which is why I had the impression he wasn't a good shooter.

I might be nitpicking tho, it's obviously a very minor issue, and every team would probably face some issues like that. I'm just listing out the weaknesses I project from what I see.

[kshutts1]

Iamgine -Great passing, but very minimal shot creation. When push comes to shove, to whom can you just throw the ball and they make something happen? Not enough options, IMO.
Spacing - Very good. Only reason issue is overlapping of shooters.
FT Shooting - Good. Percentages are solid, number of attempts are low.
Chemistry - Good. Personalities are fine, though I don't like Fat coming off the bench, or that version of McHale. If they play heavy mins, though, then other really good players suffer, etc. Players fit well together, though.
Defense - Good. Some good/great defensive players, but overall your defense is underwhelming.
Shot Creation - OK. I think this is your biggest issue. The passing is great, but I don't really see anyone that can break down the defense on their own. You can argue passing all you want, but ask the Bulls team, without Rose, how well that works.
Versatility - Good. Interestingly, your bench is more versatile than your starters. Again speaks to how I think minutes should be distributed.
Rebounding - Great/elite.
Athleticism - What's that? By far your weakest KShutts1 attribute. But not a real big concern, IMO, depending on matchup.
Overall feeling - I like your team, but I think you could have done more with Bird being on the roster. Why not fully embrace Celtics glory and go with Rondo over Cooper? That solves the creating issue, still defense, and more fully Boston. Potentially a tier team, but I'm not sold on it.

Wally - Unlike other posters, I really like your bench, but only because it fills a need. Aside from your bench, your team lacks outside shooting. And you're one of the few people to build a bench similar to my own bench, but I think I did it better (of course) because you are relying on your lesser-talented bench players to fill a need (aka: play bigger minutes, or else need is not met) whereas I believe in the strength of my starters, and just didn't want to get in their way.
Spacing - OK. Starters are some of the worst I've seen. Bench is good.
FT Shooting - Very good.
Chemistry - Great from personalities and fit. May be the best so far.
Defense - Great. If you had a defensive PG, would be up there with me and Buffalo.
Shot Creation - Great.
Versatility - Ok to Good. Too many players are basically locked in to a position/niche.
Rebounding - Great. Everyone but your PGs are solid or better.
Athleticism - Great. Aside from Yao, everyone is pretty darn athletic.
Overall feeling - I like your team, but like someone else said, weird to bring Russell out of the paint on D. And using the same logic on offense, weird to bring Yao out of the paint. He's a great shooter but, like Pau Gasol, that doesn't mean he should be shooting. One of the better teams, a likely tier team, but I'd want more shooting in the starting lineup, as Thomas, Drex, and Yao are really going to clog up the paint.

Kurple - One of my favorite teams. Definitely a tier team. Year for Bosh could make it go from a great team to an amazing one.
Spacing - One of the best teams.
FT Shooting - Good.
Chemistry - Very great. AI is the ONLY question mark, and that's not much of one considering the year chosen.
Defense - Elite.
Shot Creation - Great. By my count, two players that can easily create their own shot will always be on the floor.
Versatility - OK. Mostly defined roles with players that fit those roles, though, so even though a low rating, it doesn't matter.
Rebounding - Good to great. Bench is really lacking, but starters are elite.
Athleticism - Good to great. AI is a freak, most of the others are good.
Overall feeling - Again, I really really like this team. Definitely a tier team. Most likely the first one, though I'm not sure. Doesn't mean it doesn't have questions, but it is great.

Kobes - I absolutely hate Diaw being there. That's 100% recency bias. He played well in the Finals, against Lebron and the Heat. That's really about it. Turn him in to a stretch four, and I'd have loved your team.
Spacing - Great. Shooters, slashers, no one camped out in the paint non-stop, much less multiple people.... great.
FT Shooting - Good.
Chemistry - Great. Literally only issue I see is Paul NEEDS to be in control. More than Kobe, IMO. He is similar to Peyton Manning in that regard. You want him in charge because he is so good at it... but it can be detrimental. Tangent, but it's why I never thought the Paul/Kobe pairing would work when that trade happened.
Defense - Elite.
Shot Creation - Elite.
Versatility - Great.
Rebounding - Great. Team rebounding at its finest.
Athleticism - Elite.
Overall feeling - Strength of your team is having so many players that can do so many things, but then it's hampered by Paul needing to be the one to do them. It's almost a streetball team in that respect. You'll have no problem scoring, and you can also throw out one of the most versatile defensive lineups. I like your team alot, but I HATE HATE HATE Diaw being on it. Similar to the Giannis pick. Total waste. Can't get over it. But you're definitely a tier team.

[kshutts1]

Being ball dominant is one thing, but I think having 2 high usage guards gets in the way of each other a little. Hurts that neither of them played in the pick and roll era to get Malone involved as well. How do their games complement each other? Because West is more of a shooter and Oscar is more of a slasher? Doesn't change the fact both are more effective with the ball in their hands. Again I'm not saying they can't be effective, you've just yet to convince me they'll bring the best out of each other.

If you read my points carefully you'll realise i said your team is lacking winners when compared to the elite teams. When comparing all time greats, everyone is a winner. How do you stand out from that crowd? Be someone that leads his team to multiple championships. Why is Duncan ranked higher than KG, Barkley, Malone? Championships.

1) My team has, literally, only 3.5-4 players used to having the ball in their hands often (Harden/Gilmore being the .5s). If you take issue with my team getting in the way of one another, I still have to be a top 2 team in that regard.
2) Malone is most famous for being a PnR player, but that's not the only way he was effective. Not a misconception, necessarily, but where the highlights don't tell the true story. Similar to "Blake is only good for dunking".
3) We're going to have to agree to disagree. I think that going to nine Finals for West, two straight for Karl, Oscar being a playoff regular, Bowen having his championship mettle all add up to being a winning team. And I also don't rank Duncan more highly than KG. Because winning a title is a team thing. The individuals I just named not only have experience playing under all manners of playoff/title pressure, but played WELL.
Edit: By "winner" I basically mean "competitor" because as an individual you can't do anything but try/play your best. For instance, Rusell Westbrook has not won a thing, but I consider him a winner.

[raiderfan19]

I'm not entirely sure this has any value but it does show my teams well rounded nature. if you add up all of my starters they combined to avg 113.3/37.1/24.7/8.9/8.0.

[kshutts1]

Barkley - I don't share the love that nearly everyone else does for Kawhi. Not sure he fits in your starting lineup.
Spacing - Good. Similar to other teams, good spacing by virtue of good shooting, but minimal 3p threats.
FT Shooting - Good.
Chemistry - Great. Personalities are great. Positions... I think you lack a SG. Especially with your refusal to play Klay. Change his season to last season, and take out Kawhi. Better team.
Defense - Worst in the league.
Shot Creation - Great.
Versatility - Good. Players can do a lot, mostly Magic and Sabonis, but almost no positional versatility.
Rebounding - Great/elite.
Athleticism - Elite.
Overall feeling - It really depends on how you'll run your team. Assuming you're going to be fast-break heavy, I like it a lot. Your team is built to run, and built really really well. But you'll struggle, though not a lot, in the half court. Anyone with competent offensive bigs, and a smart game plan, will slow the game down. Likely a tier team, though not sure.

Random - Westbrook and Melo on the bench? Howard not the focal point? We have already seen this fail.
Spacing - Elite. Might be the best in the league, but I won't say that yet.
FT Shooting - Good. Other than Howard, it's great.
Chemistry - Trainwreck. Might be the only team to lose based on a single attribute alone. I mean, even OMER ASIK has said he doesn't want to be a backup, and he doesn't even matter for your team.
Defense - Good. Bigs say elite, guards say worst.
Shot Creation - Elite.
Versatility - Elite. But then you chose to not go that route.
Rebounding - Great.
Athleticism - Elite.
Overall feeling - I think you're the least successful team in this tournament. Look up at the ratings I gave you, and that should not be the case. But the chemistry will be too much to overcome. Even for Pop. I wish there was a crying emoticon, because it hurts me to see that much talent wasted.

Cold - Other than Stockton, how does your offense get anything done?
Spacing - Good.
FT Shooting - OK. Like Howard, Wilt torpedoes it.
Chemistry - OK. Could be second worst, or it could be fine. Some combustible personalities, and the talent fits but just barely.
Defense - Great/Elite. You can stop anyone except a high-scoring athletic SF. Lucky for you, Random took two of the best.
Shot Creation - Bad.
Versatility - OK. Not enough positional versatility.
Rebounding - Great/elite.
Athleticism - Great.
Overall feeling - By looking at your team, it appears as though you're relying on Wilt a ton. Then I see you chose his defensive years. I think you built a great team to complement the 50/25 Wilt. Right player, wrong year. Then I would have really liked to see someone on your second unit that can create offense. I believe Bell was your last pick.. if you had chosen a creating player instead, you would have been better off. Stock is a good enough defender where you didn't need to pick Bell. Very unlikely to be a tier team. More likely to be near the bottom.

Raider - I see the least athletic team, and you say you want to press? Just kidding, of course. Athleticism is off the charts. I like your team a lot, but it doesn't scare me.
Spacing - Great. I feel I have to defend myself here.. would be Elite if I saw a player that "slashed" regularly. You may be the lone team that "suffers" from having too much shooting.
FT Shooting - Great/Elite. May be the best in the league.
Chemistry - Great/elite. Apparent lack of an on-court leader doesn't bother me. Robinson/Durant lead by example, if nothing else.
Defense - Great/elite. Clearly crafted with D in mind.
Shot Creation - Elite. May be the best, and I say this with a slight caveat... I think KobeFinger has the most "creative" lineup, and you are second, but I can see yours being the more effective of the two.
Versatility - Great.
Rebounding - Good.
Athleticism - Elite. May be the best.
Overall feeling - I can't exactly pinpoint why your team doesn't scare me. It's one of the most well-built teams. It has historical talent. One of the best coaches, by all accounts. Honestly, I think it's the lack of size. You have length, but not size. Rebounds and post defense will be difficult for you. Especially if you want to run, as you've clearly stated. I think a team with a big front line can slow the game down enough to negate your running style. You still have enough talent to make a difficult half-court adversary, but your team is really only frightening when it's running. Definitely a tier team. Most likely third, or low second.

[iamgine]

Shot Creation - OK. I think this is your biggest issue. The passing is great, but I don't really see anyone that can break down the defense on their own. You can argue passing all you want, but ask the Bulls team, without Rose, how well that works.
Umm...Bird, Richmond, Pierce break defenses down on the regular....even Mchale and Moses if the ball can get to their hand.

[MP.Trey]

Perhaps I should have phrased it a little differently, I didn't mean your team had bad shooters. From what I remember about Hondo and Lewis, neither were really catch and shoot shooters. With Nash running the pick and roll or Hakeem posting up and Sampson in the high post, it takes away alot of the spacing which is why I felt you'd be better off with better catch and shoot shooters rather than guys who take it off the dribble. And while they are fine shooters, neither had 3pt range, which shrinks the court for Nash/Hakeem who both work with space. I also might have mistook Reggie Lewis for Len Bias lol, which is why I had the impression he wasn't a good shooter.

I might be nitpicking tho, it's obviously a very minor issue, and every team would probably face some issues like that. I'm just listing out the weaknesses I project from what I see.
That's fine and I understand. I just want to clear up why I thought these "weaknesses" or not as weak as they seem because of the make up of the team. One thing though is Hondo definitely had 3 point range (I'll try to find it later but I read a quote Hondo himself had about potentially how many more points he would have had if he played with the three point line and how he always could shoot it but just didn't see the point as a 30 footer was worth the same amount of points as a layup) and was fantastic shooting off the catch. A lot of his
points were off curls, screens, cuts, etc. Very good off the ball player who didn't need the ball to dominate the offensive end.

And Kshutts, I'll try to do some schooling on Lewis later tonight but I had to do quite a bit of research before deciding to draft him myself. Long story short, very long and athletic and gifted defensively. MJ and Larry (who he played behind for a while) always gave his defense high praise and was very good at creating his own shot, deadly mid range shooter whether it was a floater, bank shot, fadeaway, etc.

[kshutts1]

Buckets - My thought process... "Minimal shooting.. oh, later JKidd. Not bad. Too many players operate in the same manner. :facepalm :facepalm that frontcourt".
Spacing - OK. Not as bad as originally thought, but Gervin, Worthy and Barkley all produce offense in the same manner. All are slashers, none are shooters. Your shooters, except for Kidd, are all backups.
FT Shooting - Good.
Chemistry - Good. Personalities should be fine, but the fit could be better.
Defense - OK.
Shot Creation - Great.
Versatility - Ok/Good.
Rebounding - Good/Great. Bench bigs are not good, guards make up for it.
Athleticism - Good.
Overall feeling - One of my least favorite teams. Don't confuse that with one of the worst, though. Just on a personal level, one of my least favorite. With some light tinkering (start Korver) I can see your team being effective. Most likely not a tier team, but not a bad team, either. Likely in the 10-14 range.

Demitri - Very talented, but not diverse enough in the talent.
Spacing - Bad/OK. You made a mockery of spacing.
FT Shooting - OK.
Chemistry - OK. I said it earlier.. .Barry/Pippen I don't see working. And then the fits are bad, too.
Defense - Elite.
Shot Creation - Elite.
Versatility - Elite.
Rebounding - Good.
Athleticism - Great.
Overall feeling - It looks like you'll run one hell of a weird offense. People constantly driving into the lane, over and over. I'd run a zone, and just laugh at the shooting attempts. Team is athletic enough and has enough talent to win some games, but the talent fits are so bad that I don't see you being successful.

Hangin -Front line is scary. Literally and figuratively.
Spacing - Good.
FT Shooting - OK. Shaq kills it.
Chemistry - OK/Good. Personalities I don't like or hate, but KJ off the bench and Artest kinda worry me.
Defense - Great.
Shot Creation - Great/Elite.
Versatility - Great.
Rebounding - Great.
Athleticism - Great.
Overall feeling - I think if your team had Bowen instead of Artest, you'd be a top 3 team in the league. Still scary, Shaq can win a game for you against anyone, as can TMac. One of the rare all-time teams that is built like a real team, but still has historical talent. I really like it, and expect it to be a tier team, just most likely not the first.

[kshutts1]

Umm...Bird, Richmond, Pierce break defenses down on the regular....even Mchale and Moses if the ball can get to their hand.
I didn't watch much of Bird, so maybe my perception is way wrong, but I always had the perception of Bird being a guy that got his shots in the flow of the offense. Maybe the best ever at that. I never thought of him as someone that could iso and dominate.
Pierce, yes.. but he's on your bench, backing up the best player on your team.
Richmond, good at it, not elite.
McHale and Moses could score when given the ball, but could not create.

I still like your team, just don't love it. As Wally (I think it's him) loves to say.. I'm just nitpicking. Kinda necessary with this much talent.

[MP.Trey]

Btw, the activity in this thread is awesome! :rockon:

Keep up the debate guys.

[raiderfan19]

Raider - I see the least athletic team, and you say you want to press? Just kidding, of course. Athleticism is off the charts. I like your team a lot, but it doesn't scare me.
Spacing - Great. I feel I have to defend myself here.. would be Elite if I saw a player that "slashed" regularly. You may be the lone team that "suffers" from having too much shooting.
FT Shooting - Great/Elite. May be the best in the league.
Chemistry - Great/elite. Apparent lack of an on-court leader doesn't bother me. Robinson/Durant lead by example, if nothing else.
Defense - Great/elite. Clearly crafted with D in mind.
Shot Creation - Elite. May be the best, and I say this with a slight caveat... I think KobeFinger has the most "creative" lineup, and you are second, but I can see yours being the more effective of the two.
Versatility - Great.
Rebounding - Good.
Athleticism - Elite. May be the best.
Overall feeling - I can't exactly pinpoint why your team doesn't scare me. It's one of the most well-built teams. It has historical talent. One of the best coaches, by all accounts. Honestly, I think it's the lack of size. You have length, but not size. Rebounds and post defense will be difficult for you. Especially if you want to run, as you've clearly stated. I think a team with a big front line can slow the game down enough to negate your running style. You still have enough talent to make a difficult half-court adversary, but your team is really only frightening when it's running. Definitely a tier team. Most likely third, or low second.
Offensively in the half court we'd be very similar to the 11 mavs with Durant playing the dirk roll to perfection. That and I think the Durant/drob pick and roll would be nasty.

I understand the complaint about size and I thought about getting someone in the tenth round to take care of it. The problem is I was already out of minutes and like with other players shooting I didn't think size on the bench did any good if I took someone like rick mahorn.

The caveat I will add to that is I think you may be forgetting how strong drob was. He's one of the strongest players in nba history.(there is video of him doing curls with 90 lb dumbells somewhere if I can find it. He will always guard the strongest big. Given that and the fact that most teams don't have two over powering bigs and I'm not concerned about it nearly as much.

Edit-also I'm not sure if this is a nitpick but I believe I have clearly the best d in the league. I know you marked it great/elite so that may come off as overly argumentative to argue, but I don't see who you could even begin to argue since buffalo starts rice and webber

[wally_world]

I have the best defense in the league BAR NONE. Bad Boy Pistons + Bill effing Russell. Just think about that for a minute.

[kshutts1]

Saved my breakdown for last, so it can double as an argument for my team.

KShutts1 - Minimal historical talent, but offset by high-usage all-time-great players playing heavy minutes. Built like a real team, that has proven to be successful, just choosing players with elite skill sets.
Spacing - Great. Starters don't have great spacing, but bench is elite.
FT Shooting - Elite. In my opinion, best in the league, considering volume. West, Oscar, Harden, Karl all get to the line at a high rate and convert at a high rate.
Chemistry - Great/Elite. I think I'm one of the best in the league here, though I can see how some view the West/Oscar pairing as odd. I combat that with having low usage almost everywhere else.
Defense - Elite. Top 3.
Shot Creation - Great. I really only have 3 players that can consistently create their own shots/iso. But two of those three will be in the game almost all the time.
Versatility - Great. Would be elite if I had more versatility in my front court. Other than Karl, Dikembe and Gilmore, everyone can play out of position quite well, and do multiple things.
Rebounding - Good/great. I have above-average rebounders at all positions, except for SF.
Athleticism - OK/Good. One of my weaknesses. Karl was a freak, but other than him, I'm not impressive here.


Breakdown/arguments -
1) I'm a guard-heavy team, which is weird for AT drafts. That said, Gilmore and Karl can dominate in the post.
2) Athleticism is sub-par. I didn't take the time to look, but likely bottom 5 in the league. I'll combat that by slowing the game down (which could negate Karl, but this is older Karl, so not really) and killing it in the half-court with my slashers and shooters. I'll play a mostly drive and kick style, with 3 being rained, jumpers from Karl, and FTs.
3) I can defend any player. The only player I don't really have an "answer" for is Shaq (and younger Wilt, but he was not chosen). Luckily, he's not on a great roster. But if I match up with them in the playoffs, I could have some trouble. Otherwise, I can defend anyone.
4) For a defensive, unathletic, half-court team, my rebounding is not where it could/should be. But it's not a weakness, either. I may not be the best rebounding team, but I'll never get killed. Oscar and West were elite rebounders for their position, Karl, Dikembe and Gilmore were great to elite.
5) Kirilenko is a do-it-all player, and he will be asked to do it all when he's in the game. That said, he's the pick I liked least. I'm not sure how he'll respond to such a decrease in minutes. In my mind, he's my lone/biggest chemistry question.
6) I don't expect to be considered the best team now. But once we get into individual matchups, I'll shine brightest there. Similar to H2H fantasy basketball, I may not win all the categories, and I may even lose in some "every week", but those that I do win, I win often enough to win it all. My team could very well be a 5-4 matchup victory straight through the title.

[kshutts1]

I have the best defense in the league BAR NONE. Bad Boy Pistons + Bill effing Russell. Just think about that for a minute.
With Horry and McDaniel off the bench, mind you.

But I don't think it's the best without argument. It's certainly in the conversation, though.

[kurple]

tier one: Kurple, Buffalo, Coldsoul

tier two: Buckets, Wally, Kobesfingers

tier three: Gotter, Barkley, MP Trey

[raiderfan19]

I have the best defense in the league BAR NONE. Bad Boy Pistons + Bill effing Russell. Just think about that for a minute.
I can make a legit argument that I'm better defensively than you at every position but pf(I'd honestly call Eddie and dumars equal and you could also argue joe d as better but I could make a legit argument too)

[iamgine]

I didn't watch much of Bird, so maybe my perception is way wrong, but I always had the perception of Bird being a guy that got his shots in the flow of the offense. Maybe the best ever at that. I never thought of him as someone that could iso and dominate.
Pierce, yes.. but he's on your bench, backing up the best player on your team.
Richmond, good at it, not elite.
McHale and Moses could score when given the ball, but could not create.

I still like your team, just don't love it. As Wally (I think it's him) loves to say.. I'm just nitpicking. Kinda necessary with this much talent.
Well...if you haven't watch Bird just think of Dirk and Durant. He's at the very least on their level on iso.

Richmond was pretty elite wasn't he? Even Jordan had a hard time guarding him. There's a reason he's often called the 2nd best SG in the 90s.

I don't know man, these assessments are way off. Rondo as my PG? Rondo can't shoot and Coop's defense are better. Moreover, Rondo's awesome vision would be wasted on the triangle. That's fine though I think if I try to assess another team I would be way off too. :lol

[kshutts1]

Offensively in the half court we'd be very similar to the 11 mavs with Durant playing the dirk roll to perfection. That and I think the Durant/drob pick and roll would be nasty.

I understand the complaint about size and I thought about getting someone in the tenth round to take care of it. The problem is I was already out of minutes and like with other players shooting I didn't think size on the bench did any good if I took someone like rick mahorn.

The caveat I will add to that is I think you may be forgetting how strong drob was. He's one of the strongest players in nba history.(there is video of him doing curls with 90 lb dumbells somewhere if I can find it. He will always guard the strongest big. Given that and the fact that most teams don't have two over powering bigs and I'm not concerned about it nearly as much.

Edit-also I'm not sure if this is a nitpick but I believe I have clearly the best d in the league. I know you marked it great/elite so that may come off as overly argumentative to argue, but I don't see who you could even begin to argue since buffalo starts rice and webber
You might be the most versatile defense. You and my team probably are the two most versatile. And Wally may be the least versatile, though equally dominant.

But to compare your team to Buffalo's solely, Webber's no weaker a defender than KD, Rice is super tall which can help, and Buffalo has the greatest collection of lockdown talent ever seen. Payton, Jordan, Allen, Rodman are all in the discussion for greatest defenders for their positions ever. Noah and Thurmond made their living on D.
Your team, on the other hand, has great defensive talent.. in the starting lineup. You're subbing good-but-not-great defenders.

Honestly, totally a nitpick at this stage, but I understand the issue you seem to take with it.. you clearly built your team with D in mind. I just prefer Buffalo's in that regard.

[kshutts1]

Well...if you haven't watch Bird just think of Dirk and Durant. He's at the very least on their level on iso.

Richmond was pretty elite wasn't he? Even Jordan had a hard time guarding him. There's a reason he's often called the 2nd best SG in the 90s.

I don't know man, these assessments are way off. Rondo as my PG? Rondo can't shoot and Coop's defense are better. Moreover, Rondo's awesome vision would be wasted on the triangle. That's fine though I think if I try to assess another team I would be way off too. :lol
I don't know how to explain what I mean. Totally my fault, obviously.

But I do view Bird more Dirk-like than anything else. I guess I mean dribble creation. I don't see Dirk beating a man off the dribble. I see him.. just being better. Both effective, but one collapses the D and one does not. Same end result so, again, nit pick.

And Rondo as the PG because even the triangle relied on two people to break down the defense. What good does the triangle do if the defense doesn't have to recalibrate, realign, shift, etc? Maybe I don't know what the triangle is, but what I have seen is an offense that is predicated on making the D react/move/shift, and attacking its weaknesses. Who on your team will attack it? I'll give you Richmond. Bird will attack it with a deadly jumper, but it's still not an "attack".

I hope I make myself clear, but I don't think I am. I'm having difficulties getting my point across though this medium, lol.

[raiderfan19]

For the record, there is a HUGE difference in webber and Durant defensively. Durant is on the hole a positive on d given his great help d, though he's obviously not a shutdown defender or anything. Webber on the other hand was absolutely terrible. I'm a huge mavs fan so I watched a ton of webber during his peak(the early 2000s because they were our biggest rival and webber was absolutely terrible defensively. Awful. Stunningly awful.

The comparisons are blaylock to glove. Edge glove. But not nearly as big as most of you will think. Blaylock was also a first team all nba defender. Jordan/jones. Obviously Jordan but still not nearly as big as you think. Rice/Durant-Durant webber/ad- Davis by the biggest margin of any position in this comparison. Robinson/Thurmond-edge Robinson. His backcourt is better, my front court is better while still having elite backcourt d. As for backups... His are better defensively than mine outside of Timmy. By alot

[iamgine]

I don't know how to explain what I mean. Totally my fault, obviously.

But I do view Bird more Dirk-like than anything else. I guess I mean dribble creation. I don't see Dirk beating a man off the dribble. I see him.. just being better. Both effective, but one collapses the D and one does not. Same end result so, again, nit pick.

And Rondo as the PG because even the triangle relied on two people to break down the defense. What good does the triangle do if the defense doesn't have to recalibrate, realign, shift, etc? Maybe I don't know what the triangle is, but what I have seen is an offense that is predicated on making the D react/move/shift, and attacking its weaknesses. Who on your team will attack it? I'll give you Richmond. Bird will attack it with a deadly jumper, but it's still not an "attack".

I hope I make myself clear, but I don't think I am. I'm having difficulties getting my point across though this medium, lol.
You are saying Dirk doesn't make defense move? Holy cow...Dirk is one of the biggest defense wrecker in our times. He definitely make defense move and shift a lot with and without the ball.

I think your assumptions are half baked. There's a little truth in it but also many of wrong stuff mixed. Triangle is about react/move/shift but there are ways to do that without having players like Rondo whose real talent would be a waste in this team. Heck the Bulls only had Jordan and Pippen and I know Bird is way better than Pippen on offense creation. Players like Bird, Dirk and Durant can create by dribbling, beating their man, cutting, shooting, etc. They're complete offensive players.

[kshutts1]

Tier 1 teams:
Kurple, Kshutts (have to), Raider

Tier 2:
Buffalo, Kobe... I think these are the 5 best.
Last of tier 2 is Iamgine.

Tier 3:
Gotter, Milbuck, Hangin.

That said, I think this portion of the exercise is essentially meaningless, as the seedings don't matter one iota. Matchups are all that matter from here on out. And I left some super scary matchup teams off the tiers, most notably Barkley and Wally.

[wally_world]

Tier One:
Myself
MP Trey
Hangintheair

Tier Two:
Buffalo
Barkleynash
Kurple

Tier Three:
Kshutts
Gotter
Iamgine


Had a hard time deciding between Hangin and Buffalo for the final Tier One spot, both teams very well built. Same with Kurple/KShutts for Tier Two, but Kurple's bench was so well built and gave him the (slight) coaching advantage too.

Really like Millbuck's starting 5 but the bench doesn't bring the right type of roleplayers for my liking. AboutBuckets probably next in line to get a vote from me, but shame I can't take any of the above teams out. HM to Raider too, very solid team.

[Gotterdammerung]

That said, I think this portion of the exercise is essentially meaningless, as the seedings don't matter one iota. Matchups are all that matter from here on out. And I left some super scary matchup teams off the tiers, most notably Barkley and Wally.

Agreed.

It's all about matchups, not due to a ranking process of all teams according to some so-called objective criteria. :hammerhead:

[wally_world]

Agreed.

It's all about matchups, not due to a ranking process of all teams according to some so-called objective criteria. :hammerhead:

Well, we have to seed the teams in order for h2h matchups to happen.

[kshutts1]

Well, we have to seed the teams in order for h2h matchups to happen.
RAndom seedings would be best. You randomized order.

And I've said it before, say it again... As long as we do this method, we should not be allowed to vote for our own team, but we should get "points" for voting. In the end it doesn't matter, as seeds dont' matter. I just think this step takes too long considering its relative unimportance.

[raiderfan19]

One thing about this draft. I absolutely hated Kobe's team in the draft(and said so) but the more I look at it the more I like it. I didn't put it in my tiers and I'm not sure I'm going to revise him into it, but he's a very good team overall.

[raiderfan19]

And one odd thing, the strength of iamgines team is clearly his frontcourt. But he has very little rim protection. That's an odd combination imo

[kshutts1]

Good call on Iamgine. That is odd.

[wally_world]

RAndom seedings would be best. You randomized order.

And I've said it before, say it again... As long as we do this method, we should not be allowed to vote for our own team, but we should get "points" for voting. In the end it doesn't matter, as seeds dont' matter. I just think this step takes too long considering its relative unimportance.

:confusedshrug:

If we made it vote for 8 teams, the top 2 gets 3pts, the next 3 gets 2pts, and the last 3 gets 1pt each, and each voter gets 3pts, it wouldn't make a difference.

I like the exchanges going on here tho. Everyone is getting to know every team in general, their weaknesses, strengths, and GMs getting the opportunity to counter these weaknesses.

I will be setting up an awards thread to keep things interesting until this regular season voting ends. Any suggestions for awards?

[kshutts1]

It makes a difference only because I didn't plan on voting for myself for tier 1. I think I'm more of a matchup team. But I felt the need to vote tier 1 for myself.

And as for awards, just some ideas.. nothing earth-shattering.
best offense,
best defense,
most fun to watch,
best "get your popcorn ready" team (as in.. which one is most likely to implode at any moment),
best pick (of the whole draft, considering how they're being used on their teams, etc),
worst pick...

[kshutts1]

Funniest "subplot" could be interesting. Just an opportunity for someone like Raider to pick up on a quirk like...
Iamgine's frontcourt is his strength, it's a strong defensive front court, yet there's no shot blocking.
or
Will Jordan, Payton and Hardaway ever get so into their trash talking that they trash talk EACH OTHER and ignore the other team?
or
Milbuck should have chosen Phoenix's medical staff

Just little things/quips like that could be interesting. I'm not creative enough to come up with many/any though.

[hangintheair]

Team Hangintheair
I like the core of the team, great pieces around Shaq. Some minor issues would be defense against quick players, Love and KJ accepting the bench role, and the usage of Ron Artest as a starter (always been a terrible off ball player). No problem at this stage tho.

If my backcourt were being destroyed by the opposing team, I think that's where Alvin Robertson will come through. And don't underestimate T-Mac's defense, he was really good defender when he was in Toronto but because he need focus on offense in Orlando that is why you see it that way.

Regarding on the bench role, KJ will be like the Crawford in Clippers. He has the all the license he needed when the 2nd unit comes through and I think that that will not be an issue. As for Love, he will be given rightful amount of minutes so it will be not an issue.

As for the Artest being a terrible off-ball player, I know that is not Artest main forte but with Shaq's inside presence and given the spacing he needed. I think he can easily adapt to the system.

Anyways thanks for the comment. :rockon:


Hangin -Front line is scary. Literally and figuratively.
Spacing - Good.
FT Shooting - OK. Shaq kills it.
Chemistry - OK/Good. Personalities I don't like or hate, but KJ off the bench and Artest kinda worry me.
Defense - Great.
Shot Creation - Great/Elite.
Versatility - Great.
Rebounding - Great.
Athleticism - Great.
Overall feeling - I think if your team had Bowen instead of Artest, you'd be a top 3 team in the league. Still scary, Shaq can win a game for you against anyone, as can TMac. One of the rare all-time teams that is built like a real team, but still has historical talent. I really like it, and expect it to be a tier team, just most likely not the first.

With the winning formula on my team, I think Artest will not be an issue here. And with Billy Cunningham as my coach, who controls the ego with many superstars in one team. Controlling Artest will be on his hand.

Thanks for the compliment :applause:

[wally_world]

Awards thread (for the fun of it) now up!

http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=356946


*edit - do you guys think i should shortlist a few teams (5?) for each award instead leaving it open? makes it easier for the voters, but the downside is i might miss a few teams here and there

[Gotterdammerung]

In response to the only two who analyzed my team:


Team Gotter
I like this team. Very blue collared and underrated. Great balance, tho I could see some potential issues when playing teams with very good scoring wings. Year of Bob McAdoo would be crucial, MVP version (accepting of a bench role?) or 6th man version? Stokes was a big question mark pick for me. Won't see minutes in that rotation, but he was a #1 guy on his team back then.
Bernard King will either outscore or score enough on the scoring wing to tire them out. If there's a KD or Nowitzki type of unstoppable scoring machine, I will stick DeBusschere on them, minimize their impact.
Bob McAdoo is the Buffalo Braves version - 1974, MVP season. I picked him over the bench scorer because he was more athletic and flexible, capable of blocking shots and rebounding for the bench unit, on top of shooting off kickouts.
I was thinking of Hal Greer or Pete Maravich, but realized that I didn't have much size beyond Reed and Duncan.



Gotter -
Spacing - OK, only because almost everyone can shoot.. just not 3s. Players have range, but I see only two players I'd worry about shooting a 3.
FT Shooting - OK.
Chemistry - Great. The only player that somewhat worries me is King, but otherwise it's great.
Defense - Excellent. One of the best.
Shot Creation - Good. I don't like relying on bigs, so maybe I'm biased. Because both starting bigs create for others.
Versatility - Good. Same as Buffalo. Minimal positional, but players can do everything.
Rebounding - Great.
Athleticism - OK. Don't know enough about older players athletic ability. But my assumption is that Stokes, Frazier, Jones, DeBusschere are the only very good athletes.
Overall feeling - Year for Archibald matters a lot. If the lack of 3p shooting didn't scare me so much, I'd say it's a tier 1 team. As it is, should be a top 8.

If by athleticism, you mean speed, quickness, then Nate Archibald has it in bunches. He was the prototype of ultraquick guards like Iverson. If you mean rim-rattling dunks, then that only fires up the fans and gets all-star votes.

[MP.Trey]

Going to try to be as concise as possible here, but these are my overall team impressions:

Milbuck - I wasn't sure how you were gonna build around Kobe & Dirk but I love this team. Only weaknesses I see are almost all of your guards are ball-dominant and I don't know how I feel about Wooden coaching a modern(ish) NBA style game with grown men, as great as he was.

iamgine - I like the Celtics touch with the triangle. Interesting team. The logjam of great players in the frontcourt concerns me a little chemistry-wise but good job.

barkleynash - Very nice. You have good to great passing 1-5, athletes to run the break with Magic and unselfish players to play inside-out with in the halfcourt. Wish you had more consistent 3 point/outside shooting though.

AboutBuckets - Never expected to like this team as much as I do. Walton and Barkley complement each other fantastically as do Kidd and Gervin. Wish you had more shooting at the 3 spot and a better bench outside of Matrix.

wally world - Early favorite. Bad Boys backcourt + Russell with Chuck Daly coaching is a juggernaut of a defense. Drexler scoring, and I like the ability for Russell to work high posts and feed entry passes to Yao on the block. (I had both these players in peak draft #2)

Random Guy - Putting a lot of shooters around LeBron was a smart idea but in my opinion, there's too many dominating personalities and Pop would retire before coaching guys like Westbrook, Howard & Carmelo all on one team, especially if some of them are playing behind other superstars.

Demitri98 - Pretty good team. Fun offense and good defense. Would be fun to watch run the break. Would have added more spacing and I'm scared to see how Pippen/Barry co-exist.

BuffaloBraves - Any team with MJ is a frontrunner but you put together a very nice team around him. Love Payton/Rice with him, Webber can score and/or pass on the block and Thurmond/Noah both rim protecting. Very nice, seems like you have a bench that would co-exist well as well. JVG's coaching is the only concern.

kurple - Another very good team. Good coach, great players. Love the Bosh/Jones dynamic at the 4 and most of your players can be effective off the ball if you dump it to Kareem or decide to iso with Grant or AI. Your team is the best I've seen and hardest to find weaknesses for up to this point.

Cold Soul - Very talented roster. Maybe the most stacked team in the draft, which raises the concern of players getting upset over losing minutes. Could have grabbed more specialty player (3 and/or D guys) but I like the Wilt/Sheed frontcourt and how well they could work together if they don't blow up.

Kshutts - I really dislike Karl Malone so I'm kinda biased there. I love the Oscar/West backcourt even though some have raised concerns about it. Wish you had more off-ball players who can get an easy bucket off cuts, curls, etc. Bowen is more of a stand in the corner type guy on offense and West/Harden/Robertson all like the ball in their hands quite a bit.

Gotterdammerung - Nice team. Love the Knicks flavor and you snagged the perfect coach for this group. Could use more 3 point shooting but your team is fantastic both offensively, defensively and stylistically.

Kobesfinger - I'm not a fan of going all modern in these drafts but you did a pretty good job of it. Carter/George are a bit redundant on offense (hopefully George can tone it down and focus on defense) but Cp3/KG is a great pnr and 1-2 punch and I absolutely love your bench. Filled with guys willing to play their role but not really downgrading on talent to do it.

Raiderfan - Guard play is a little shaky compared to some of the other backcourts in this draft but the length and athleticism of this team is near un matchable. Good defense but a great offense.

Hangintheair - Very well put together team stylistically. This is probably the best offensive team of the draft in all honesty, but I wish you had more defense outside of Artest & Ibaka and there's a lot of personalities for Cunningham to try to tame with Artest, Ibaka, Shaq, even T-Mac, etc.

[MP.Trey]

As for my votes (Not going to give myself a vote and I don't care if that screws me out of a good seed)

Tier 1 - BuffaloBraves, wally world, kurple

Tier 2 - AboutBuckets, Raiderfan, barkleynash

Tier 3 - Gotterdammerung, hangintheair, Cold Soul

HM to Kobesfinger, Milbuck, iamgine & kshutts. Had a real hard time leaving you guys off.

[barkleynash]

As for my votes (Not going to give myself a vote and I don't care if that screws me out of a good seed)

Bold move MP Trey! I like the confidence going into the head to head matchups :applause:

Also loving the back and forth action we are getting here. Keep it rollin! :roll:

Also if you haven't yet, go vote for the team awards: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10659513&posted=1#post10659513

[Random_Guy]

Barkley - I don't share the love that nearly everyone else does for Kawhi. Not sure he fits in your starting lineup.
Spacing - Good. Similar to other teams, good spacing by virtue of good shooting, but minimal 3p threats.
FT Shooting - Good.
Chemistry - Great. Personalities are great. Positions... I think you lack a SG. Especially with your refusal to play Klay. Change his season to last season, and take out Kawhi. Better team.
Defense - Worst in the league.
Shot Creation - Great.
Versatility - Good. Players can do a lot, mostly Magic and Sabonis, but almost no positional versatility.
Rebounding - Great/elite.
Athleticism - Elite.
Overall feeling - It really depends on how you'll run your team. Assuming you're going to be fast-break heavy, I like it a lot. Your team is built to run, and built really really well. But you'll struggle, though not a lot, in the half court. Anyone with competent offensive bigs, and a smart game plan, will slow the game down. Likely a tier team, though not sure.

Random - Westbrook and Melo on the bench? Howard not the focal point? We have already seen this fail.
Spacing - Elite. Might be the best in the league, but I won't say that yet.
FT Shooting - Good. Other than Howard, it's great.
Chemistry - Trainwreck. Might be the only team to lose based on a single attribute alone. I mean, even OMER ASIK has said he doesn't want to be a backup, and he doesn't even matter for your team.
Defense - Good. Bigs say elite, guards say worst.
Shot Creation - Elite.
Versatility - Elite. But then you chose to not go that route.
Rebounding - Great.
Athleticism - Elite.
Overall feeling - I think you're the least successful team in this tournament. Look up at the ratings I gave you, and that should not be the case. But the chemistry will be too much to overcome. Even for Pop. I wish there was a crying emoticon, because it hurts me to see that much talent wasted.

Cold - Other than Stockton, how does your offense get anything done?
Spacing - Good.
FT Shooting - OK. Like Howard, Wilt torpedoes it.
Chemistry - OK. Could be second worst, or it could be fine. Some combustible personalities, and the talent fits but just barely.
Defense - Great/Elite. You can stop anyone except a high-scoring athletic SF. Lucky for you, Random took two of the best.
Shot Creation - Bad.
Versatility - OK. Not enough positional versatility.
Rebounding - Great/elite.
Athleticism - Great.
Overall feeling - By looking at your team, it appears as though you're relying on Wilt a ton. Then I see you chose his defensive years. I think you built a great team to complement the 50/25 Wilt. Right player, wrong year. Then I would have really liked to see someone on your second unit that can create offense. I believe Bell was your last pick.. if you had chosen a creating player instead, you would have been better off. Stock is a good enough defender where you didn't need to pick Bell. Very unlikely to be a tier team. More likely to be near the bottom.

Raider - I see the least athletic team, and you say you want to press? Just kidding, of course. Athleticism is off the charts. I like your team a lot, but it doesn't scare me.
Spacing - Great. I feel I have to defend myself here.. would be Elite if I saw a player that "slashed" regularly. You may be the lone team that "suffers" from having too much shooting.
FT Shooting - Great/Elite. May be the best in the league.
Chemistry - Great/elite. Apparent lack of an on-court leader doesn't bother me. Robinson/Durant lead by example, if nothing else.
Defense - Great/elite. Clearly crafted with D in mind.
Shot Creation - Elite. May be the best, and I say this with a slight caveat... I think KobeFinger has the most "creative" lineup, and you are second, but I can see yours being the more effective of the two.
Versatility - Great.
Rebounding - Good.
Athleticism - Elite. May be the best.
Overall feeling - I can't exactly pinpoint why your team doesn't scare me. It's one of the most well-built teams. It has historical talent. One of the best coaches, by all accounts. Honestly, I think it's the lack of size. You have length, but not size. Rebounds and post defense will be difficult for you. Especially if you want to run, as you've clearly stated. I think a team with a big front line can slow the game down enough to negate your running style. You still have enough talent to make a difficult half-court adversary, but your team is really only frightening when it's running. Definitely a tier team. Most likely third, or low second.
Thanks for the feedback. I feel like I have explained how my team could work though. And maybe it would be better if i somewhat changed the years of westbrook in to a year he acme off the bench. However for melo, he has played off the bench in the olympics, this somewhat shows how he could play that backup role. Howard wasnt always the focal point of offense, in his most dominant magic days he wasnt even taking that many shots, he just focused on rebounding and defesne. He being asked to be in the offesnse is a recent thing. As for asik, he was a backup during his tenure with the bulls.

[Random_Guy]

will give my comments soon, have a handful atm :(

[kshutts1]

Kshutts - I really dislike Karl Malone so I'm kinda biased there. I love the Oscar/West backcourt even though some have raised concerns about it. Wish you had more off-ball players who can get an easy bucket off cuts, curls, etc. Bowen is more of a stand in the corner type guy on offense and West/Harden/Robertson all like the ball in their hands quite a bit.
Didn't even think of that aspect, to be honest. I doubt you're surprised. My team built around the premise of Oscar, West, Karl, Harden (in that order) owning the paint on offense, and kicking it out to shooters if/when necessary. Similar to what the Rockets do now, just not nearly that extreme.

[barkleynash]

bumpski...last day of reg season voting then we get our playoff matchups

[wally_world]

GMs who have voted:
Raider
Kobesfinger
Millbuck
Barkleynash
Coldsoul
Gotter
Buffalo
Aboutbuckets
Iamgine
Hangintheair
Kurple
Kshutts
Wally
MP Trey

GMs yet to vote:
Random Guy
Demitri

[MP.Trey]

GMs who have voted:
Raider
Kobesfinger
Millbuck
Barkleynash
Coldsoul
Gotter
Buffalo
Aboutbuckets
Iamgine
Hangintheair
Kurple
Kshutts
Wally
MP Trey

GMs yet to vote:
Random Guy
Demitri
Wow that's actually a very good ratio. I'm glad most people stuck to it and for the most part, were very active in the draft thread as well. Definitely the best forum draft I've been a part of so far!

[wally_world]

Wow that's actually a very good ratio. I'm glad most people stuck to it and for the most part, were very active in the draft thread as well. Definitely the best forum draft I've been a part of so far!

Don't jinx it! Playoffs yet to come :lol

[kurple]

Kurple[/B] - One of my favorite teams. Definitely a tier team. Year for Bosh could make it go from a great team to an amazing one.

i'm going with the 2nd championship season, 12-13

not his most dominant one, but he's a better defender (PnR, team defense), championship experience, improved range, off the ball movement and experience playing alongside a ball dominant player (like iverson). also his most efficient season

[kurple]

gonna save my writeup for the playoffs

[wally_world]

VOTING RESULTS:

GM | Tally of votes | (Total Score/No. of votes received)

Millbuck = 2 + 3 + 2 + 1 + 3 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 (15/9)

MP Trey = 1 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 1 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 3 (17/10)

Buffalo = 2 + 3 + 3 + 2 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 2 + 2 + 3 + 3 + 2 + 2 + 3 (36/14)

Gotter = 1 + 3 + 3 + 1 + 3 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 (15/9)

Iamgine = 1 + 3 + 1 + 3 + 2 + 2 + 1 (13/7)

Wally = 1 + 2 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 3 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 3 (19/10)

Kurple = 3 + 3 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 2 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 3 + 2 + 3 (26/12)

Kobesfinger = 1 + 2 + 2 (5/3)

Barkleynash = 1 + 1 + 3 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 2 + 2 + 3 + 1 + 2 + 2 (23/12)

Random = 1 (1/1)

Coldsoul = 1 + 3 + 1 + 3 + 2 + 3 + 2 + 3 + 1 (19/9)

Raider = 3 + 3 + 1 + 2 + 1 + 3 + 2 (15/7)

Aboutbuckets = 2 + 2 + 1 + 3 + 2 + 2 (12/6)

Demitri = (0/0)

Kshutts = 3 + 2 + 3 + 3 + 2 + 3 + 3 + 1 (20/8)

Hangintheair = 2 + 1 + 1 + 2 + 2 + 3 + 1 + 3 + 1 (16/9)


*MP Trey and Kobesfinger did not vote for themselves, therefore I am adding 3pts to both their totals in the interest of fairness, any objections?


PLAYOFF SEEDINGS:

1 - Buffalo (36)
2 - Kurple (26)
3 - Barkleynash (23)
4 - MP Trey (17+3)
5 - Kshutts (20)
6 - Coldsoul (19)
7 - Wally (19)
8 - Hangintheair (16)
9 - Gotter (15)
10 - Raiderfan (15)
11 - Millbuck (15)
12 - Iamgine (13)
13 - Aboutbuckets (12)
14 - Kobesfinger (5+3)
15 - Random Guy (1)
16 - Demitri (0)

[wally_world]

Splitting it into 2 conferences for easier posting

ROUND ONE MATCHUPS:

EAST
Buffalo vs Demitri
MP Trey vs Aboutbuckets
Kshutts vs Iamgine
Hangintheair vs Gotter

WEST
Kurple vs Random Guy
Barkleynash vs Kobesfinger
Coldsoul vs Millbuck
Wally vs Raiderfan


Side note - Would need the following GMs to provide me with the years of their players (as indicated) in preparation for the playoffs voting thread:

Gotter (Tiny Archibald, Dave Debusscherre, Maurice Stokes)
Kurple (Mark Eaton)
Random Guy (Entire team minus Curry/LeBron)
Coldsoul (Dennis Johnson, Raja Bell, David Thompson, Robert Parish)
Aboutbuckets (George Gervin, James Worthy)
Demitri (Scottie Pippen, Marc Gasol, Rick Barry)

[kurple]

kobesfingers should have gotten more votes

[kurple]

84-85 Eaton

11.3 rpg, 5.6 bpg, DPOY, anchoring the #1 defense in the league

[raiderfan19]

I'm disappointed I didn't get more votes... But oh well. We'll see how the team matchups go.

[barkleynash]

kobesfingers should have gotten more votes

agreed, that's a tough first round matchup for my squad but I have to admit that I like seeing "little" Big Ben Wallace lined up against Sabonis :applause:

[barkleynash]

I'll post the 2 playoff threads when I get back from practice is a few hours and then we can get this thing rolling.

[barkleynash]

Link to main playoff page:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10664321#post10664321

Good luck everyone! :cheers: