Who is the greatest system player ever?

[Lebronxrings]

Been discussing this with some of my boys. A dude who excels due to the system and helps keep the system intact. IMO its Duncan, but my friend said kobe which i have no argument for. :confusedshrug:

[ImKobe]

Duncan
Malone
Stockton

They played in the same system and under the same coach all their career, except for Malone, who tried to ringchase...

And I'm not trying to knock Duncan, but he's played under Pop's system all his career, off the top of my head, those 3 names come in mind due to how many years they played under the same guy.

Kobe is not a system player. He's played under a handful of coaches and only under Phil did he ever play in some sort of a system, and even then you had Phil and others criticize Kobe for not playing within the team, which means he just did what he wanted and hogged the ball, that is not a system...He's not that great of a system/team player. He does what he wants. He chucks up a lot of ??? shots.

If we're talking a certain system, MJ is GOAT in the triangle, followed by Kobe and Shaq.


And Nash in the Phoenix system, he ran it flawlessly. It's just that they were unlucky with the Amare injury in 2006 and refs robbed them in 2007...Nash led a much less talented roster to the WCF in 2010 when they brought back the same system... He definitely needs to be in the convo.

[TiagoSimoes]

Been discussing this with some of my boys.

have you been talking to yourself again?

[coin24]

Is that you AW?:lol

Boys? Lol you never get off this site

[ImKobe]

have you been talking to yourself again?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTLNXkU34P4

[Taller than CP3]

-Stockton
-Malone
-D Williams
-Boozer

Jerry Sloan pimped them out and made all of them his bitches.

[T_L_P]

Duncan
Malone
Stockton

They played in the same system and under the same coach all their career, except for Malone, who tried to ringchase...

And I'm not trying to knock Duncan, but he's played under Pop's system all his career, off the top of my head, those 3 names come in mind due to how many years they played under the same guy.

Kobe is not a system player. He's played under a handful of coaches and only under Phil did he ever play in some sort of a system, and even then you had Phil and others criticize Kobe for not playing within the team, which means he just did what he wanted and hogged the ball, that is not a system...He's not that great of a system/team player. He does what he wants. He chucks up a lot of ??? shots.

If we're talking a certain system, MJ is GOAT in the triangle, followed by Kobe and Shaq.


And Nash in the Phoenix system, he ran it flawlessly. It's just that they were unlucky with the Amare injury in 2006 and refs robbed them in 2007...Nash led a much less talented roster to the WCF in 2010 when they brought back the same system... He definitely needs to be in the convo.

Playing in one system (which isn't even true) makes you a system player? What sort of logic is that? :biggums:

[Real Men Wear Green]

Any system that doesn't allow Tim Duncan to have a great career is idiotic.

[ImKobe]

Playing in one system (which isn't even true) makes you a system player? What sort of logic is that? :biggums:

You follow a system your coach(es) run? It's not that hard to follow dude. He plays within a system that is designed by Pop. The system changes over the years, but it's still the system. Now his role is different and it's more spread out, but it's a system...

Does Duncan call his own plays? No. He plays a certain role, he does what the coaches want him to do. He follows the game plan. That is what a system player does. Like Brady in New England.

Shaq in the triangle was a system player. Big men typically are, because they don't bring up the ball, dictate the pace or pass it to themself in the post :facepalm, they rely on their teammates to give them the ball down low when they have position or they get an offensive rebound... What is so difficult to understand here?

Kobe is the ultimate non-system player, like MJ & Lebron are. They do what they want with the ball and they make plays instinctively. MJ did respect Phil more than 3-peat Kobe, but that's not even a knock against him, because he was trying to make a name for himself and did what he had to do... When Phil came back and we got Gasol, Kobe became more of a system player and didn't dominate the ball as much nor did he play outside the system.

Most players are system players, they play a role.... Only a few players you can say aren't system players... Every coaching staff has their own system and players have a role in that system....Everyone plays in a system...

Kobe, MJ and Lebron are great examples of guys that you can just give the ball to and they'll do things on the fly...

[T_L_P]

Kobe's WS/48 from 97-99 (before Phil):

.079
.147
.130

Combined .126

00-04 (with Phil)

.202
.196
.199
.210
.210

Combined .204

05 (without Phil)

.145

06-11 (with Phil)

.224
.199
.208
.206
.160
.178

Combined .197

12-13 (without Phil, injured for basically all of 14)

.132
.174

Combined .148

So the only year Kobe had any sort of success without Phil, on a team (WCSF, WCSF, WCSF, 11th seed, WCSF, 7th seed [missed Playoffs due to injury]) or individual basis, was 2013, where he played for Mike D'Antoni, a system coach.

And I'd still never have the gall to call Kobe a system player. That's absurd... :roll:

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Any system that doesn't allow Tim Duncan to have a great career is idiotic.

:applause:

[T_L_P]

You follow a system your coach(es) run? It's not that hard to follow dude. He plays within a system that is designed by Pop. The system changes over the years, but it's still the system. Now his role is different and it's more spread out, but it's a system...

Does Duncan call his own plays? No. He plays a certain role, he does what the coaches want him to do. He follows the game plan. That is what a system player does. Like Brady in New England.

Shaq in the triangle was a system player. Big men typically are, because they don't bring up the ball, dictate the pace or pass it to themself in the post :facepalm, they rely on their teammates to give them the ball down low when they have position or they get an offensive rebound... What is so difficult to understand here?

Kobe is the ultimate non-system player, like MJ & Lebron are. They do what they want with the ball and they make plays instinctively. MJ did respect Phil more than 3-peat Kobe, but that's not even a knock against him, because he was trying to make a name for himself and did what he had to do... When Phil came back and we got Gasol, Kobe became more of a system player and didn't dominate the ball as much nor did he play outside the system.

Most players are system players, they play a role.... Only a few players you can say aren't system players... Every coaching staff has their own system and players have a role in that system....Everyone plays in a system...

Kobe, MJ and Lebron are great examples of guys that you can just give the ball to and they'll do things on the fly...

So what you've basically said is that, because Duncan's played in a system, he is a system player. Got it!

:roll: at everyone but Jordan, Kobe and Brandon Jennings being system players. You must have a much different definition of the word, because the only all time great who I think was a system player is Steve Nash, because that one specific system turned him into a much more valuable player. But Bird, Kareem, Duncan, Hakeem, Shaq being system players is just a farce. Danny Green is a fcking system player (you know, because the only reason he was in the league a few years ago was because of it?)

[ImKobe]

Kobe's WS/48 from 97-99 (before Phil):

.079
.147
.130

Combined .126

00-04 (with Phil)

.202
.196
.199
.210
.210

Combined .204

05 (without Phil)

.145

06-11 (with Phil)

.224
.199
.208
.206
.160
.178

Combined .197

12-13 (without Phil, injured for basically all of 14)

.132
.174

Combined .148

So the only year Kobe had any sort of success without Phil, on a team (WCSF, WCSF, WCSF, 11th seed, WCSF, 7th seed [missed Playoffs due to injury]) or individual basis, was 2013, where he played for Mike D'Antoni, a system coach.

And I'd still never have the gall to call Kobe a system player. That's absurd... :roll:

He had better numbers during his prime than he did before & past his prime? :lebronamazed: :lebronamazed:

[ImKobe]

So what you've basically said is that, because Duncan's played in a system, he is a system player. Got it!

:roll: at basically everyone but Jordan, Kobe and Brandon Jennings being system players. You must have a much different definition of the word, because the only all time great who I think was a system player is Steve Nash, because that one specific system turned him into a much more valuable player. But Bird, Kareem, Duncan, Hakeem, Shaq being system players is just a farce. Danny Green is a fcking system player (you know, because the only reason he was in the league a few years ago was because of it?)

What's so bad about being a system player? 08-11 Kobe was a system player... 00-04 Shaq was a system player... Bulls MJ(90-98) was a system player....

Or you wanna tell me the triangle is not a specific system that benefited MJ, Kobe, Shaq? Of course it is!

Duncan's played in Pop's system all his career, get over it, crybaby.

[T_L_P]

He had better numbers during his prime than he did before & past his prime? :lebronamazed: :lebronamazed:

One-year-before-his-peak Kobe had a mediocre impact though (.145, 11th seed)

Oh wait, but he was injured.

I guess Phil makes him a better player and he stops him going into TOSB mode. :biggums:

But seriously...Kobe's not a system player. Duncan's not a system. A system player is someone who a) needs a system in order to be successful (not just an offensive ethos like you're trying to say) or b) be in the league.

Top 10 all time players don't count. They would have had success anywhere.

That doesn't necessarily ring true for a Nash or a Ben Wallace. :confusedshrug:

[Spurs5Rings2014]

What's so bad about being a system player? 08-11 Kobe was a system player... 00-04 Shaq was a system player... Bulls MJ was a system player....

Or you wanna tell me the triangle is not a specific system that benefited MJ, Kobe, Shaq? Of course it is!

Duncan's played in Pop's system all his career, get over it, crybaby.

:biggums:

Wait, hold up, ain't you JUST say MJ is 'one of the greatest non-system player of all time'? Now you saying when he was with the Bulls, he WAS a system player?! WTF, so he's a top 3 no system player because of the couple years past his prime in Washington? You backpedaling extremely hard right about now.

:roll:

[ImKobe]

One-year-before-his-peak Kobe had a mediocre impact though (.145, 11th seed)

Oh wait, but he was injured.

I guess Phil makes him a better player and he stops him going into TOSB mode. :biggums:

But seriously...Kobe's not a system player. Duncan's not a system. A system player is someone who a) needs a system in order to be successful (not just an offensive ethos like you're trying to say) or b) be in the league.

Top 10 all time players don't count. They would have had success anywhere.

That doesn't necessarily ring true for a Nash or a Ben Wallace. :confusedshrug:


The entire team around Kobe changed...he had a tough time at first adapting to the new roster and the coach and it's well-documented that he wasn't that healthy in 05...he only played in 36 games pre-ASG and shot horribly in them despite averaging 28/6/7, 2nd half of the season he averaged 27/6/5 on 46/35/84 shooting, but the team was horrible on the defensive end.

If anything, Kobe looked virtually the same that year, only that he was noticeably slower and missed over a dozen games due to injuries...

[ImKobe]

:biggums:

Wait, hold up, ain't you JUST say MJ is 'one of the greatest non-system player of all time'? Now you saying when he was with the Bulls, he WAS a system player?! WTF, so he's a top 3 no system player because of the couple years past his prime in Washington? You backpedaling extremely hard right about now.

:roll:

Triangle is a system, right? He played in that system, right? He beasted in that system (won all his rings), right?

But he was also great before the triangle. And he did play under Doug Collins in the 80s so I'm basing it on that, son. When he was allowed to run free and do his thing, he put up amazing statistical seasons, under Phil's SYSTEM, he was more of a TEAM player, he distributed the ball around, he made his teammates better and his teammates made him more effective. That's a SYSTEM.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Triangle is a system, right? He played in that system, right? He beasted in that system (won all his rings), right?

But he was also great before the triangle. And he did play under Doug Collins in the 80s so I'm basing it on that, son.

So Duncan is exempt from not being a system player because he played under the same coach his entire career? You realize he is a top 10 player of all time and the greatest PF of all time, right? He would be great playing under any system or no system at all. You act like he was only successful because he played under Pop when that couldn't be further from the truth.

:coleman:

[T_L_P]

The entire team around Kobe changed...he had a tough time at first adapting to the new roster and the coach and it's well-documented that he wasn't that healthy in 05...he only played in 36 games pre-ASG and shot horribly in them despite averaging 28/6/7, 2nd half of the season he averaged 27/6/5 on 46/35/84 shooting, but the team was horrible on the defensive end.

If anything, Kobe looked virtually the same that year, only that he was noticeably slower and missed over a dozen games due to injuries...

Why are you responding to it as if I was being serious?

Kobe's not a system player. He wasn't at any point in his career. And it's not because he likes to chuck and is somewhat un-coachable. It's because he's so fcking great. Like Jordan is, or like Shaq is, or like Magic is. Have you ever considered that maybe these systems only work because they're being ran through some of the 20 best players ever?

Like I said, Nash without the run-n-gun system is a fringe all-star. With it he's a b2b MVP. Ben Wallace without an offense that doesn't need him and competent defenders at every position probably isn't a multiple DPOY winner.

Kobe without Phil wins an MVP and a bunch of rings somewhere. Magic without Pat is the same. Danny Green is out of the league if not for a beautiful offensive system (the only 'system' Duncan's ever played in).

We obviously just have very different definitions. You're saying if Duncan got drafted by the Bucks and every coach told him to shoot, he wouldn't be a system player. But because he got drafted by a team that had a coach who would eventually instill one, he is a system player. If that is what you are saying, this debate is moot.

[ImKobe]

What's so bad about being a system player though? I don't take it in a negative way, like a player needs a system to be effective. It's not Duncan's fault he was drafted to San Antonio and that Pop's system happened to be effective. He could have obviously had a great career somewhere else.

But he does play in a system. He's a part of the system. The same way Kobe, Shaq, Pippen, MJ were part of the triangle.

Tom Brady is my favorite athlete besides Kobe and he's a system player, I don't care. They're great at what they do. They are great teammates.

[dubeta]

LeBron

Can run a system, and dominate an offense without having to make his teammates adapt to his playstyle

[sportjames23]

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/0c/0c48a5023885e4d69c8800c6e80052e91123b5fe438f24082a 48d75566e63bb5.jpg

This man's system is named after him.

[Cold soul]

Tim Duncan
Steve Nash
Karl Malone

[Smoke117]

You follow a system your coach(es) run? It's not that hard to follow dude. He plays within a system that is designed by Pop. The system changes over the years, but it's still the system. Now his role is different and it's more spread out, but it's a system...

Does Duncan call his own plays? No. He plays a certain role, he does what the coaches want him to do. He follows the game plan. That is what a system player does. Like Brady in New England.

Shaq in the triangle was a system player. Big men typically are, because they don't bring up the ball, dictate the pace or pass it to themself in the post :facepalm, they rely on their teammates to give them the ball down low when they have position or they get an offensive rebound... What is so difficult to understand here?

Kobe is the ultimate non-system player, like MJ & Lebron are. They do what they want with the ball and they make plays instinctively. MJ did respect Phil more than 3-peat Kobe, but that's not even a knock against him, because he was trying to make a name for himself and did what he had to do... When Phil came back and we got Gasol, Kobe became more of a system player and didn't dominate the ball as much nor did he play outside the system.

Most players are system players, they play a role.... Only a few players you can say aren't system players... Every coaching staff has their own system and players have a role in that system....Everyone plays in a system...

Kobe, MJ and Lebron are great examples of guys that you can just give the ball to and they'll do things on the fly...

Manufacture this horse shit all by yourself?

[IncarceratedBob]

Answer is Nash. He owes his eventual HoF induction to MDA

[SpanishACB]

(you know, because the only reason he was in the league a few years ago was because of it?)

you're saying Green wouldn't be a NBA player without Pop?

Maybe. But that says nothing bad about Green, it just proves NBA scouts and coaches missjudge talent and value. Nothing new.

[Nashty]

Answer is Nash. He owes his eventual HoF induction to MDA

It's actually the other way around. Nash was an All Star and an All NBA player without D'Antoni, and D'Antoni had only one winning season without Nash.

[rmt]

you're saying Green wouldn't be a NBA player without Pop?

Maybe. But that says nothing bad about Green, it just proves NBA scouts and coaches missjudge talent and value. Nothing new.

What it means is that Green is damn lucky that Pop gave him a chance - instead of being cut by multiple NBA teams and playing abroad, he's gonna collect a big, fat contract next year (?). Green is the definition of a role player succeeding beyond his wildest dream in a system. He's a great defender and 3 pt shooter, but he inevitably turns the ball over when he tries to dribble or pass the ball.

[Horde of Temujin]

Duncan
Malone
Stockton

They played in the same system and under the same coach all their career, except for Malone, who tried to ringchase...

And I'm not trying to knock Duncan, but he's played under Pop's system all his career, off the top of my head, those 3 names come in mind due to how many years they played under the same guy.

Kobe is not a system player. He's played under a handful of coaches and only under Phil did he ever play in some sort of a system, and even then you had Phil and others criticize Kobe for not playing within the team, which means he just did what he wanted and hogged the ball, that is not a system...He's not that great of a system/team player. He does what he wants. He chucks up a lot of ??? shots.

If we're talking a certain system, MJ is GOAT in the triangle, followed by Kobe and Shaq.


And Nash in the Phoenix system, he ran it flawlessly. It's just that they were unlucky with the Amare injury in 2006 and refs robbed them in 2007...Nash led a much less talented roster to the WCF in 2010 when they brought back the same system... He definitely needs to be in the convo.

Nash was the system.

[GrapeApe]

The myth of Pop's "system" is growing to ridiculous levels. People talk as if he used some sort of wizardry to unlock the secrets of basketball. He uses the same philosophies that have been around for 50+ years. Pop became a coaching genius after the arrival of a top 10 GOAT player. Funny how that works isn't it?

[imdaman99]

Been discussing this with some of my boys. A dude who excels due to the system and helps keep the system intact. IMO its Duncan, but my friend
Stopped reading right there. Dude, no one is gonna believe you have friends. Unless you're talking about your other personalities on this forum aka lebeta, dragic and jt24 :facepalm

[Myth]

I feel like Nash benefited more than anybody. He was a mediocre level all-star on Dallas, and then thanks to some rule changes and D'Antoni's coaching style coming together at the perfect time, Nash suddenly had 2 MVPs.

[ArbitraryWater]

Is that you AW?:lol

Boys? Lol you never get off this site

You hate my views so much that you've convinced yourself of me being someone with 5+ alts so my opinion won't hold any merit or no one else could or should be critical of Kobe... Sad but I appreciate the effort about me :applause:

[Heavincent]

I don't get why people call Nash a system player. D'Antoni didn't do diddly poo after leaving Phoenix. And Nash was still just as good playing for Alvin Gentry.

[sportjames23]

The myth of Pop's "system" is growing to ridiculous levels. People talk as if he used some sort of wizardry to unlock the secrets of basketball. He uses the same philosophies that have been around for 50+ years. Pop became a coaching genius after the arrival of a top 10 GOAT player. Funny how that works isn't it?


I'd love to see how Pop does when Duncan retires. Then again, I believe he'll step down when Tim does leave the game.

[Kblaze8855]

The only people who think Duncan has played in a single system are those who think a system is a coaches name.

The spurs offense from 99 to now couldnt be more different.

Having one coach does not make a basketball system be the same for 17 years. It isnt Phil and the triangle.

The Spurs change drastically with their personnel.

[rmt]

The only people who think Duncan has played in a single system are those who think a system is a coaches name.

The spurs offense from 99 to now couldnt be more different.

Having one coach does not make a basketball system be the same for 17 years. It isnt Phil and the triangle.

The Spurs change drastically with their personnel.

I wouldn't say that the Spurs change drastically with their personnel - more that they get specific role players to complement their core. I think they go with what gives them the most. When Duncan was in his prime, the offense was mostly throwing into TD, get double teamed and throw out to an open 3 pter or score or get fouled. As TD left his prime and Parker and Manu developed, they went to more pick and roll with TP/Manu and Duncan. The past couple years they are evolving into a pass/movement system that's not so player-dependent. People talk like this highly-vaunted "system" has been in existence since day 1 of the Duncan era.

[ImKobe]

The only people who think Duncan has played in a single system are those who think a system is a coaches name.

The spurs offense from 99 to now couldnt be more different.

Having one coach does not make a basketball system be the same for 17 years. It isnt Phil and the triangle.

The Spurs change drastically with their personnel.

The system changes, but it's still a system... The system maximizes his strengths, Pop has adapted to the age of the big 3 and has got the most out of their role players to make up for their decline...

It's not to downplay Tim Duncan. Prime Duncan could play in any system because he basically was the system. Now he gets to play 33 mpg in the Playoffs and his team is still dominant.

It doesn't take anything away from his achievements, he's still where he is. What's so bad about admitting that RIGHT NOW? Do you think he's not a system player at this point?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Kobe. No success whatsoever outside the triangle.

[Purch]

The myth of Pop's "system" is growing to ridiculous levels. People talk as if he used some sort of wizardry to unlock the secrets of basketball. He uses the same philosophies that have been around for 50+ years. Pop became a coaching genius after the arrival of a top 10 GOAT player. Funny how that works isn't it?


Funny because the system he employs didnt exist until that "top 10 player" was age 34.

But you wouldn't be able to understand the difference between the grind it out and post centric offense he employed from 1998-2010, and the up tempo ball movement based offense he employed from 2011-2014. The system he gets praised for creating has existed for less than 4 full years, that were all after Duncan declined. That would take a level of analysis way beyond your level of mastery

[Mass Debator]

Steve Nash?
Lebron? He is his own system...

[ImKobe]

Kobe. No success whatsoever outside the triangle.

MJ without the triangle - 0 rings, I'd also like to know his W/L record outside the triangle :lol

Didn't the team still win 55 games the next season after he "retired"? Hmm.

[dubeta]

Kobe. No success whatsoever outside the triangle.

Whats the Lakers record once Phil left?

[ImKobe]

Whats the Lakers record once Phil left?

MJ without Pippen or Phil: 182-228

Phil retires in 2011. Lakers win 41 games out of 66 (51 wins if you adjust the pace to 82 games).

Kobe also missed 8 games that season and played with a shoulder injury, broken nose and a shin injury.

[mehyaM24]

duncan without question.

system players have a negative stigma - but honestly, they're great teammates and and when you put them in position to succeed, they'll go get it.

i prefer players who are self made. guys who can play BOTH in AND out of the system.

duncan, despite his success with SA, has been a horrific international player and ultimately hasn't faced the pressure other guys have had, in terms of finding a niche WHILE making others better. from day 1, duncan was blessed with talent and coaching.

guys like KG and webber would've BOTH been top 10 players (they're better basketball players as is) had they got to play with the GOAT coach, multiple Hofers, and GOAT international players.

[Smoke117]

duncan without question.

system players have a negative stigma - but honestly, they're great teammates and and when you put them in position to succeed, they'll go get it.

i prefer players who are self made. guys who can play BOTH in AND out of the system.

duncan, despite the success with the spurs, has been a horrific international player and ultimately hasn't faced the pressure other guys have had in terms of finding a niche, while making others better. from day 1, duncan was blessed with talent and coaching.

guys like KG and webber would have both been top 10 players (they're better basketball players as is) had they got to play with the GOAT coachm Hofers, and GOAT international players.

http://replygif.net/i/1485.gif

[mehyaM24]

http://replygif.net/i/1485.gif

webber would be fringe, because of his defense. ill admit.

[SugarHill]

duncan without question.

system players have a negative stigma - but honestly, they're great teammates and and when you put them in position to succeed, they'll go get it.

i prefer players who are self made. guys who can play BOTH in AND out of the system.

duncan, despite his success with SA, has been a horrific international player and ultimately hasn't faced the pressure other guys have had, in terms of finding a niche WHILE making others better. from day 1, duncan was blessed with talent and coaching.

guys like KG and webber would've BOTH been top 10 players (they're better basketball players as is) had they got to play with the GOAT coach, multiple Hofers, and GOAT international players.

Webber was a better player than Duncan? :coleman:

[mehyaM24]

Webber was a better player than Duncan? :coleman:
more skilled, creative and funner to watch. webber's offensive skill (especially his passing) makes duncan look like a robot in comparison.

[Smoke117]

more skilled, creative and funner to watch. webber's offensive skill (especially his passing) makes duncan look like a robot in comparison.

lol...Webber was a terrible post up player. He had that ugly little hook shot and that was about it. Besides that he mostly took horrible looking jump shots. His rebounding and passing ability raise him offensively, but he is one of the most overrated scorers ever at the PF position. A guy who had no business taking as many shots as he did.

[GrapeApe]

Funny because the system he employs didnt exist until that "top 10 player" was age 34.

But you wouldn't be able to understand the difference between the grind it out and post centric offense he employed from 1998-2010, and the up tempo ball movement based offense he employed from 2011-2014. The system he gets praised for creating has existed for less than 4 full years, that were all after Duncan declined. That would take a level of analysis way beyond your level of mastery

I'm not sure why you're taking a shot at me and you're tangent is completely irrelevant to my point. My point was that Duncan is not a system player. Prime Duncan would have thrived in any system. Nowhere in my post did I say the Spurs ran the same system for Duncan's entire career. I don't know how you reached that conclusion based on what I said.

[Nowitness]

multiple Hofers, and GOAT international players.

when you have to repeat the same thing twice (duncan's played with one hall of famer who isnt an international) you know you have no case.

chris webber.

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130806122705/glee/images/6/6f/28468-Taylor-swift-lol-gif-OMBg.gif

[T_L_P]

lol...Webber was a terrible post up player. He had that ugly little hook shot and that was about it. Besides that he mostly took horrible looking jump shots. His rebounding and passing ability raise him offensively, but he is one of the most overrated scorers ever at the PF position. A guy who had no business taking as many shots as he did.

He was beyond shaky in the Playoffs. He scored more than 20 PPG 4 times (2000-03, the worst Duncan teams), and he shot just over 46%. That's bad.

The Webebr point is stupid anyway because he played like 4 full seasons. He didn't get injured because he had to carry the load (he played on a team with Vlade, one of the highest impact bigs of his day, Peja who averaged 21/5/4, Bibby, and Doug Christie), he got injured all the time because he was injury prone.

What a terrible agenda.

[3ball]

In recent days, JR Smith complained about the Triangle offense, because it is an equal-opportunity offense where each possession is initiated by passing to the wings, post or high post, as opposed to a dribble intensive screen roll.

Pass-initiation offenses like the Triangle don't let players dominate the ball or take any time dribbling, and the Triangle is also an equal opportunity offense, where all players have the same time of possession.

So clearly, the best system player of all time is Michael Jordan, since despite this stringent, equal-opportunity, non-dribble-intensive system (that he initially hated), he still ended up being able to provide the most production of any player ever (Win Shares, WS/48, PER, PPG), while doing so more efficiently (120 ORtg) than any #1 option, non-big man ever.... all within the system, which is why his teammates never underperformed.