If Pippen had won 1 FMVP of the 6...

[Mass Debator]

would Jordan still be the GOAT?

Or if Jordan had gone 6/7 in the finals...?

[SouBeachTalents]

Pippen's legacy and all time ranking would have taken a substantial boost with a Finals MVP in that run, while Jordan wouldn't be the near unanimous GOAT he is today

[3ball]

Pippen's legacy and all time ranking would have taken a substantial boost with a Finals MVP in that run, while Jordan wouldn't be the near unanimous GOAT he is today
too bad Jordan's worst Finals game was 22 points.

that would be a pretty good game for Pippen, even shooting poorly.

[Lebronxrings]

He deserved at least half the fmvps Jordan got. Pippen always did the dirty work and made mj look good. Only in finals time did Jordan play and hog the ball from pippen selfishly.

[AirTupac]

He deserved at least half the fmvps Jordan got. Pippen always did the dirty work and made mj look good. Only in finals time did Jordan play and hog the ball from pippen selfishly.

Just wanted to let you know, youre even bad at trolling. That says something about your life.

[SouBeachTalents]

He deserved at least half the fmvps Jordan got. Pippen always did the dirty work and made mj look good. Only in finals time did Jordan play and hog the ball from pippen selfishly.

Which years would you give Pippen Finals MVP over Jordan?

[Sarcastic]

It's a completely moot point. He never even came close to winning one and never played well enough to be considered for one.

It's like saying "what if Bran never choked"?

[SouBeachTalents]

It's a completely moot point. He never even came close to winning one and never played well enough to be considered for one.

It's like saying "what if Bran never choked"?

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1998-06-11/sports/9806110398_1_scottie-pippen-bulls-karl-malone
http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/13/sports/sports-of-the-times-it-s-as-much-pippen-s-fight-as-jordan-s.html
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/635114/What-about-Pippen-for-NBA-Finals-MVP.html?pg=all

[r0drig0lac]

too bad Jordan's worst Finals game was 22 points.

that would be a pretty good game for Pippen, even shooting poorly.
:bowdown: GOAT

[JohnMax]

too bad Jordan's worst Finals game was 22 points.

that would be a pretty good game for Lebron, even shooting poorly.
..

[ArbitraryWater]

What a dumb ****ing question....

If they hand Pippen the FMVP everyone knows it was a major mistake and MJ was the far better player in the finals..... smh :facepalm

[uber]

He deserved at least half the fmvps Jordan got. Pippen always did the dirty work and made mj look good. Only in finals time did Jordan play and hog the ball from pippen selfishly.

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[SouBeachTalents]

..

He's averaged at least that in 4 of his 5 Finals performances, even though his '07 average came on awful FG%

[mehyaM24]

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1998-06-11/sports/9806110398_1_scottie-pippen-bulls-karl-malone
http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/13/sports/sports-of-the-times-it-s-as-much-pippen-s-fight-as-jordan-s.html
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/635114/What-about-Pippen-for-NBA-Finals-MVP.html?pg=all
:applause:

had it not been for his injury, he would've been 100% the finals mvp. pippen's defense was other worldly as noted by sloan and stockton.

[Mass Debator]

What a dumb ****ing question....

If they hand Pippen the FMVP everyone knows it was a major mistake and MJ was the far better player in the finals..... smh :facepalm
Lol relax...I don't want to you have a heart attack. No hospital on ISH

[Sakkreth]

would Jordan still be the GOAT?

Or if Jordan had gone 6/7 in the finals...?

6/7 in the finals > 6/6 in the finals.

[ArbitraryWater]

Lol relax...I don't want to you have a heart attack. No hospital on ISH

I'll be more relaxed this time: You're a retard

[Mass Debator]

I'll be more relaxed this time: You're a retard
:roll: you be earning them street creds here :applause: keep going hard dawg :cheers:

[ArbitraryWater]

:roll: you be earning them street creds here :applause: keep going hard dawg :cheers:

I don't think I've ever seen you post 3 smileys in one post / 10 words.. You okay?

Stop talking like a "*****"

[Mass Debator]

I don't think I've ever seen you post 3 smileys in one post / 10 words.. You okay?

Stop talking like a "*****"
Lol you're funny man. You actually think you run this joint

[jayfan]

would Jordan still be the GOAT?

Or if Jordan had gone 6/7 in the finals...?

Yes, and yes.






.

[Smoke117]

Pippen was the favorite to recive the FMVP in the 98 finals when the Bulls were up 3-1. He was having an amazing defensive series with great all around stats. He hurt his back though in game 5 and that was that.

[Papaya Petee]

6/7 in the finals > 6/6 in the finals.
I agree. People act like losing in the finals makes your career legacy worse.

It ****ING means you made it further in the playoffs that 1 extra year.
ISH logic a player thats 2\2 and got eliminated in the 1st round the other 4 years> someone thats 2\6 and made the finals all 6 years.

Makes zero sense.

[Blue&Orange]

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1998-06-11/sports/9806110398_1_scottie-pippen-bulls-karl-malone
http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/13/sports/sports-of-the-times-it-s-as-much-pippen-s-fight-as-jordan-s.html
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/635114/What-about-Pippen-for-NBA-Finals-MVP.html?pg=all

Lebron stans are so retarded they can't even read.

From the first paragraphs.


Heck, he's at least one fifth as good as Michael Jordan.

Five for Jordan, one for Pippen.

Why not?
Why not give the MVP to MElo this year? Why not?


Pippen will relive the open jumpers he couldn't knock down, the post-ups against a smaller man, Jeff Hornacek, on which he couldn't score. If Pippen had made a few more baskets, the Bulls would have won their sixth championship
MVP!

[Blue&Orange]

I agree. People act like losing in the finals makes your career legacy worse.

It ****ING means you made it further in the playoffs that 1 extra year.
ISH logic a player thats 2\2 and got eliminated in the 1st round the other 4 years> someone thats 2\6 and made the finals all 6 years.

Makes zero sense.
eliminated first round = bad team
Making to the finals = good team
losing in the finals = not delivering with a good team
choking in the finals = Lebroning


Only retards think losing in the first round is worst than losing FMVP to Kawhi Leonard.

[SouBeachTalents]

Lebron stans are so retarded they can't even read.

From the first paragraphs.


Why not give the MVP to MElo this year? Why not?


MVP!

And I guess Knick fans have selected reading, from the very next paragraph

"Pippen would have had his first finals m.v.p. He would have been the toast of Chicago, and the begging for him to return would have officially begun"

Proof that the notion that nobody was close to winning Finals MVP over Jordan was false. But nice job pointing out a couple of sentences out of three entire articles.

Also, Melo has to actually make the Finals to be considered for Finals MVP, but small chance of that happening with that franchise

[97 bulls]

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1998-06-11/sports/9806110398_1_scottie-pippen-bulls-karl-malone
http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/13/sports/sports-of-the-times-it-s-as-much-pippen-s-fight-as-jordan-s.html
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/635114/What-about-Pippen-for-NBA-Finals-MVP.html?pg=all
I sure wish Sarcastic would respond to this post it clearly shows that Pippen was the front runner for the MVP. Or any of the prolific Pippen detractors. His not responding clearly shows his agenda.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I sure wish Sarcastic would respond to this post it clearly shows that Pippen was the front runner for the MVP. Or any of the prolific Pippen detractors. His not responding clearly shows his agenda.
Most of these guys never watched Jordan like you and I, or posters that actually give Pippen credit AND don't think he was merely a "role player".

Mike was quite clearly the best player on ALL Bulls championship teams, however Pippen's defense was crucial to their success, especially in that '98 series vs Utah.

[sdot_thadon]

Nice find, we need more articles like these to help some of these guys who weren't old enough to watch understand what it was really like.
:applause:

[Sarcastic]

I sure wish Sarcastic would respond to this post it clearly shows that Pippen was the front runner for the MVP. Or any of the prolific Pippen detractors. His not responding clearly shows his agenda.


Let's go over it game by game, shall we?

Game 1:
Jordan - 33/3/2/2blks
Pippen - 21/8/1/1stl/1blk/5TOVS!!!

Advanced:
Jordan - 111 ORTG/101 DRTG
Pippen - 86 ORTG/97 DRTG

Advantage - Jordan.


Game 2:
Jordan - 37/5/3/1stl/1blk
Pippen - 21/6/4/1stl/1blk/2TOVS

Advanced:
Jordan - 122ORTG/113DRTG
Pippen - 136ORTG/112DRTG

Advantage - push, if you wanna give this game to Pippen I can understand

Game 3:
Jordan - 24/3/2/1stl/1blk/2TOV
Pippen - 10/4/4/2stl/1blk/2TOV

Advanced:
Jordan - 136ORTG/65DRTG
Pippen - 94ORTG/61DRTG

Advantage - Jordan

Game 4:
Jordan - 34/8/2/2stl/3TOV
Pippen - 28/9/5/1stl/1TOV

Advanced:
Jordan - 108/101DRTG
Pippen - 143/106DRTG

Advantage - Pippen


Game 5:
Jordan - 28/4/3/4TOV
Pippen - 6/11/11/3stl/1blk/4TOV

Advanced:
Jordan - 97ORTG/104DRTG
Pippen - 73ORTG/100DRTG

Advantage - Jordan


Game 6:
Jordan - 45/1/1/4stl/1TOV
Pippen - 8/3/4/2stl/1blk/2TOV

Advanced:
Jordan - 110ORTG/111DRTG
Pippen - 101ORTG/106DRTG

Advantage - Jordan - also hits series clinching shot.





Jordan was clearly the better player for at least 4 games, despite what any Jordan hating writer says.

[IncarceratedBob]

6/7 is NOT better than 6/6 in the Finals

6/6 = LEGENDARY. He literally was perfect in the biggest moments.

6/7 = AMAZING but who loses on the biggest stage? Not GOAT level players.

[SouBeachTalents]

6/7 is NOT better than 6/6 in the Finals

6/6 = LEGENDARY. He literally was perfect in the biggest moments.

6/7 = AMAZING but who loses on the biggest stage? Not GOAT level players.

Literally every player in the top 10 besides Jordan lost in the Finals

[ballinhun8]

Literally every player in the top 10 besides Jordan lost in the Finals


And that's why MJ is the GOAT.


THANK YOU

[dubeta]

So Pippen would have 6 rings 1 FMVP?

He literally could be in the conversation with Kareem and i'm not kidding

[Obama=ROY]

Of course...Jordan was put on the level of Magic/Bird even before he won rings

[97 bulls]

Let's go over it game by game, shall we?

Game 1:
Jordan - 33/3/2/2blks
Pippen - 21/8/1/1stl/1blk/5TOVS!!!

Advanced:
Jordan - 111 ORTG/101 DRTG
Pippen - 86 ORTG/97 DRTG

Advantage - Jordan.


Game 2:
Jordan - 37/5/3/1stl/1blk
Pippen - 21/6/4/1stl/1blk/2TOVS

Advanced:
Jordan - 122ORTG/113DRTG
Pippen - 136ORTG/112DRTG

Advantage - push, if you wanna give this game to Pippen I can understand

Game 3:
Jordan - 24/3/2/1stl/1blk/2TOV
Pippen - 10/4/4/2stl/1blk/2TOV

Advanced:
Jordan - 136ORTG/65DRTG
Pippen - 94ORTG/61DRTG

Advantage - Jordan

Game 4:
Jordan - 34/8/2/2stl/3TOV
Pippen - 28/9/5/1stl/1TOV

Advanced:
Jordan - 108/101DRTG
Pippen - 143/106DRTG

Advantage - Pippen


Game 5:
Jordan - 28/4/3/4TOV
Pippen - 6/11/11/3stl/1blk/4TOV

Advanced:
Jordan - 97ORTG/104DRTG
Pippen - 73ORTG/100DRTG

Advantage - Jordan


Game 6:
Jordan - 45/1/1/4stl/1TOV
Pippen - 8/3/4/2stl/1blk/2TOV

Advanced:
Jordan - 110ORTG/111DRTG
Pippen - 101ORTG/106DRTG

Advantage - Jordan - also hits series clinching shot.





Jordan was clearly the better player for at least 4 games, despite what any Jordan hating writer says.
So through four games, you wouldn't disgaree with at worst a 2-2 tie as far as who played the best. What you obviously dont remember is game 3. You would be the only one feeling that Jordan had more impact than Pippen in that particular game. You need to watch that game. Pippen had Stockton clearly flustered, the Jazz had 25 TOs if I remember correct, Pippen accounted for about 17. He drew five charges and had two steals along with the constant errant passes, double teams, traps, and presses. Id put that defensive effort up against any centers. His impact in game three was tantamount to a 50 game. And that would give him a three one advantage in games 1-4. Neither played that well in game.5 and Pippen was playing well before hurt his back in game 6. That along with Jordans last minute heroics.

So to say Pippen wasnt close to getting a finals MVP is just not true. If he doesn't hurt his back, he probably finishes with another 20/7/7 game with great.defense and he surely would've won the MVP

[Nevaeh]

So through four games, you wouldn't disgaree with at worst a 2-2 tie as far as who played the best. What you obviously dont remember is game 3. You would be the only one feeling that Jordan had more impact than Pippen in that particular game. You need to watch that game. Pippen had Stockton clearly flustered, the Jazz had 25 TOs if I remember correct, Pippen accounted for about 17. He drew five charges and had two steals along with the constant errant passes, double teams, traps, and presses. Id put that defensive effort up against any centers. His impact in game three was tantamount to a 50 game. And that would give him a three one advantage in games 1-4. Neither played that well in game.5 and Pippen was playing well before hurt his back in game 6. That along with Jordans last minute heroics.

So to say Pippen wasnt close to getting a finals MVP is just not true. If he doesn't hurt his back, he probably finishes with another 20/7/7 game with great.defense and he surely would've won the MVP


You sure do a lot of "iffing" when it comes to Pip, I'll give you that much. He had as much chance at winning finals MVP as '10 Gasol, or 96 Rodman had at winning finals MVP. Flashes of brilliance is great, but if you can't keep your foot on the peddle the whole way thru, what difference does it make?

[Collie]

MJ's claim as GOAT wouldn't be as strong. A lot of his legacy relies on his brilliance when it matters. He'll still be a GOAT candidate, but guys like KAJ and Russell would be much closer.

[jlip]

6/7 is NOT better than 6/6 in the Finals

6/6 = LEGENDARY. He literally was perfect in the biggest moments.

6/7 = AMAZING but who loses on the biggest stage? Not GOAT level players.

:facepalm

According to this logic Duncan's 2011 playoff "run" was better for his legacy than his 2013 run.

[Sarcastic]

So through four games, you wouldn't disgaree with at worst a 2-2 tie as far as who played the best. What you obviously dont remember is game 3. You would be the only one feeling that Jordan had more impact than Pippen in that particular game. You need to watch that game. Pippen had Stockton clearly flustered, the Jazz had 25 TOs if I remember correct, Pippen accounted for about 17. He drew five charges and had two steals along with the constant errant passes, double teams, traps, and presses. Id put that defensive effort up against any centers. His impact in game three was tantamount to a 50 game. And that would give him a three one advantage in games 1-4. Neither played that well in game.5 and Pippen was playing well before hurt his back in game 6. That along with Jordans last minute heroics.

So to say Pippen wasnt close to getting a finals MVP is just not true. If he doesn't hurt his back, he probably finishes with another 20/7/7 game with great.defense and he surely would've won the MVP

Overall Jordan had more of an impact. No one is winning FMVP because they drew some charges.

Jordan had a game score for the series of 21.4. Pippen was 13.0. Kukoc was 11.5. Kukoc had a better chance of catching Pippen than Pippen did catching Jordan.

[97 bulls]

You sure do a lot of "iffing" when it comes to Pip, I'll give you that much. He had as much chance at winning finals MVP as '10 Gasol, or 96 Rodman had at winning finals MVP. Flashes of brilliance is great, but if you can't keep your foot on the peddle the whole way thru, what difference does it make?
Game 1-6 Jordan deserved it. Sarcastic said Pippen wasn't close. That wasn't the case.

As far as the what if game. We've discussed this before. You obviously must feel the 96 Bulls are the greatest team ever due to their record setting season. Right?

[97 bulls]

Overall Jordan had more of an impact. No one is winning FMVP because they drew some charges.

Jordan had a game score for the series of 21.4. Pippen was 13.0. Kukoc was 11.5. Kukoc had a better chance of catching Pippen than Pippen did catching Jordan.
Dude. You can't possibly be this narrow minded. Jordan rightfully deserved the MVP. But you said it wasn't close. The fact is through four of the six games, the consensus was that Pippen was the front runner for MVP. He did play bad in game 5 (even though he almost got a triple double) and got hurt in game 6. Jordan did score 28 pts but on 26 shots in game 5. So he didn't exactly set the world on fire either.

You need to rewatch game 3. Pippen spearheaded that blowout. for you to say otherwise is disengenuine to say the least.

[ballinhun8]

It was definitely close and I'd say in Pippens favor after game 4. But then game 5 happened. And well, I don't think you can not give it to Michael after he won game 6 and almost everyone knew it was the end of the dynasty there.

[dubeta]

Why do I have the feeling that if Jordan thought Pippen was enroute to FMVP, he would do anything in his power to sabotage the Finals

Heck he might even lose just so that Pippen won't get it.


Can you imagine how pissed MJ wouldve gotten? 6 rings with 6 FMVPs sounds a lot better than 6 rings and 5 FMVP's

[jstern]

These question are a little odd, since I can't imagine Pippen out playing Jordan. Jordan is the GOAT for a reason. His dominance. But these questions simplify it as it something that could simply just go either way, and Jordan just got lucky.

To answer the OP, no, Jordan would not be the GOAT. He would be a less driven version of Jordan, and that version of Jordan did not exist. It really is about the personality, and without that personality his game would be different, his drive would be different.

This is not a nock on Pippen, just explaining that Jordan had an unnatural will, drive.


MJ's claim as GOAT wouldn't be as strong. A lot of his legacy relies on his brilliance when it matters. He'll still be a GOAT candidate, but guys like KAJ and Russell would be much closer.

This is somewhat what I was trying to say. Without that brilliance when it mattered he would be a different player, not the GOAT.

[nnn123]

Why do I have the feeling that if Jordan thought Pippen was enroute to FMVP, he would do anything in his power to sabotage the Finals

Heck he might even lose just so that Pippen won't get it.


Can you imagine how pissed MJ wouldve gotten? 6 rings with 6 FMVPs sounds a lot better than 6 rings and 5 FMVP's

Why must LBJ fans always project their hero's woes to others? 2011 finals was a prime example of a player sabotaging a teammate's finals MVP, and it ACTUALLY happened, unlike your dream scenario

[sportjames23]

So, taking 1 FMVP from MJ would take away his unanimous GOAT title? :wtf:

[97 bulls]

It was definitely close and I'd say in Pippens favor after game 4. But then game 5 happened. And well, I don't think you can not give it to Michael after he won game 6 and almost everyone knew it was the end of the dynasty there.
This is all im saying

[sportjames23]

Why must LBJ fans always project their hero's woes to others? 2011 finals was a prime example of a player sabotaging a teammate's finals MVP, and it ACTUALLY happened, unlike your dream scenario


All they have are dream scenarios. These mugs can't face reality. If they did, they'd leave their moms' basements every once in a while.

[Lord Bean]

sportjame how could you i try teach you take jordan ball out you mouth you keep putting back in mouth :biggums:

how you not read my advice take ball OUT i tell you

stop it

this is not ok for grow man take basktball player balls in mouth so oftene

it is ok once in while if you must but my goodness moderetion man come on

you not remember anyting i taught you :biggums:

i am disapoimted

how you do this to me alway taking jordan ball in you mouth when i teach you no do this :facepalm

[nba_55]

So, taking 1 FMVP from MJ would take away his unanimous GOAT title? :wtf:

Really?:facepalm I don't think you know the definition of that word.

[nba_55]

These question are a little odd, since I can't imagine Pippen out playing Jordan. Jordan is the GOAT for a reason. His dominance. But these questions simplify it as it something that could simply just go either way, and Jordan just got lucky.

To answer the OP, no, Jordan would not be the GOAT. He would be a less driven version of Jordan, and that version of Jordan did not exist. It really is about the personality, and without that personality his game would be different, his drive would be different.

This is not a nock on Pippen, just explaining that Jordan had an unnatural will, drive.



This is somewhat what I was trying to say. Without that brilliance when it mattered he would be a different player, not the GOAT.
There is not such thing as ''The GOAT''. All GOAT lists are subjective.

[nba_55]

MJ's claim as GOAT wouldn't be as strong. A lot of his legacy relies on his brilliance when it matters. He'll still be a GOAT candidate, but guys like KAJ and Russell would be much closer.


In your opinion.

[ballinhun8]

This is all im saying



I was there bro. I was there for it. :cheers:

[97 bulls]

So, taking 1 FMVP from MJ would take away his unanimous GOAT title? :wtf:
I agree. One finals MVP is not what separates Jordan from everyone else.

[SouBeachTalents]

Why do I have the feeling that if Jordan thought Pippen was enroute to FMVP, he would do anything in his power to sabotage the Finals

Heck he might even lose just so that Pippen won't get it.


Can you imagine how pissed MJ wouldve gotten? 6 rings with 6 FMVPs sounds a lot better than 6 rings and 5 FMVP's

Like LeBron did in 2011?

[Collie]

In your opinion.

No. In the general public perception.

We can debate all day about the merits of each player's GOATness, and none of us will ever truly be right. But at the end of the day, I'm pretty sure even the staunchest haters will have to admit that to the PUBLIC AT LARGE, MJ is the GOAT.

[dubeta]

Like LeBron did in 2011?

:facepalm

theres a difference between borderline sabotage, and playing a team game averaging 18/7/7 on 47% shooting and being rendered ineffective since your 'leader' is ball dominant and turns you into a spot up shooter

[Round Mound]

It Would Not Have Been a Surprize To Me and No, MJ Would Still Be The Best SG Ever Despite That.

Pippen by 1990-91 Was An Elite Force At the SF Spot.

The Best All Around SF of the 90s
The Best Defensive SF of the 90s
The Best Perimeter Defender Ever

[Sarcastic]

Jordan outplayed Pippen in every playoff series. No need for him to ever sabotage anything.


Same can't be said for Bran, unfortunately. He's been outplayed by teammates and competition.

[SouBeachTalents]

Jordan outplayed Pippen in every playoff series. No need for him to ever sabotage anything.


Same can't be said for Bran, unfortunately. He's been outplayed by teammates and competition.

Besides 2011 Wade, LeBron has never been outplayed by his teammates in any other season in his career

[Sarcastic]

The Best Perimeter Defender Ever


Jordan and Gary Payton were clearly better perimeter defenders. And quite honestly I would take prime Ron Artest ahead of him as well. Pippen got punked way too many times to be called best perimeter defender ever. He was scared of the Bad Boy Pistons, and Xavier McDaniel punked his ass too.

[Sarcastic]

Besides 2011 Wade, LeBron has never been outplayed by his teammates in any other season in his career


Congrats I guess. I mean it's only one of his absolute peak/prime years.

[c5terror]

would Jordan still be the GOAT?

Or if Jordan had gone 6/7 in the finals...?

Depends,
if pippen won that final mvp during those first 3peat..MJ would never be consensus GOAT, if pippen won on 97 and 96 there will be doubt and people will be more critical on MJ but still have the a large portion that will considered him as the GOAT, if 98 or in 99 i don't think it will affect MJ status as it was already cemented during 90-93 and 95-97..

but still depends on everyone criteria..
the reason why many considered MJ as the GOAT is not only because of his rings, it is due to the combination of everything he has done on the court, like leading the league on steal, points and winning MVP and defensive player of the year all at the same time.

[sdot_thadon]

It wouldn't change his staus as goat in my eyes, it would make the conversation much more interesting though. What it would have done though, was change the book on scottie to something more realistic than what he's reduced to these days. At that point in time scottie was considered NEAR Mj's tier as a player. I know media hyperbole existed even then but those bulls were said to have the 2 best perimeter guys in the league on the same team. It went from batman and robin to superman, batman, and rodman lol. Alot of these fans weren't old enough to know what was going on in those days.

[Marchesk]

If they awared finals MVP and DPOY in the 60s, would Russell be the GOAT?

MJ is 6/6 with 6 FMVP! Oh yeah, well Russell was 11/12 with 7 FMVP and 6 DPOY.

[c5terror]

If they awared finals MVP and DPOY in the 60s, would Russell be the GOAT?

MJ is 6/6 with 6 FMVP! Oh yeah, well Russell was 11/12 with 7 FMVP and 6 DPOY.

i can't speak off about Russel as I only watch him play few times in video so the best thing i can do is to rely on stat.

-give him credit for rebound and defense

but

15ppg 44FG% for a 6'10 guy???

and

"Well too bad final mvp and DPOY wasn't existed back then." :oldlol:

[3ball]

Alot of these fans weren't old enough to know what was going on in those days.


Very true - people forget how much of a mental midget Pippen was..

Pippen disappeared in game 7 of the 1990 Eastern Conference Finals due to migraines, which he ADMITTED was due to the pressure:

"Maybe it was the pressure of the game.. As the pressure grew, the pounding grew.." Scottie Pippen, admitting to folding under the pressure of Game 7 in the 30 for 30 Bad Boys documentary (the clip below is queued to Pippen's comments at the 1h21m47s mark, but unfortunately, youtube makes you pay 1.99 to access this espn documentary).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h22m15s

Pippen also disappeared in the 1998 Finals, only averaging 15ppg on 41% shooting (Rodman was also MIA that series with only 8.3 rebs).

Pippen's career PER as a Bull: 19.6
Jordan's career PER as a Bull: 29.1




"The plan was to get the ball to Michael, and everybody else get the **** out of the way" Doug Collins, Head Coach, after Jordan's game-winner over Rodman in Game 3 of the 1989 Eastern Conference Finals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sM8sFgoSg2Q&t=21m43s




Isiah Thomas, the Pistons leader and Jordan's long-time enemy, clearly indicated on a recent episode of "Open Court" that Scottie Pippen was garbage and didn't deserve top 50 status - no one would know better than him.

"I talked with Joe Dumars for hours... we stayed up all night trying to figure out how to stop #23 in red"... Isiah Thomas, revealing how he and Dumars stayed up all night plotting against Jordan, the same night after Jordan's game-winner in Game 3 of the 1989 ECF.... the video below is queued to the spot, but it's from the 30 for 30 documentary, so youtube makes you pay $1.99 to get access.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h05m33s

We didn't even think about Scottie Pippen... it was Michael Jordan and the Jordanaires... and you can't win a games like that with only one player"... Bill Laimbeer, from 30 for 30 Bad Boys documentary (at the 1h7m35s mark).





Here's a FREE very informative documentary made in 2014 that is specifically and exclusively about the Pistons' Jordan Rules.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2v0LOhjsJs

Unlike many other greats that won rings, MJ did not have a 3rd scoring option and so in order for MJ to win his rings, he had to provide more production to his team than any player ever has (highest ever PER, PPG, Win Shares)....

In 6 Finals appearances, Jordan only had 3 games with less than 25 points, with his low being 22 points (with 9 rebs and 7 assists)... that's what was happening at the time.

[SouBeachTalents]

Very true - people forget how much of a mental midget Pippen was..

Pippen disappeared in game 7 of the 1990 Eastern Conference Finals due to migraines, which he ADMITTED was due to the pressure:

"Maybe it was the pressure of the game.. As the pressure grew, the pounding grew.." Scottie Pippen, admitting to folding under pressure in the 30 for 30 Bad Boys documentary (the clip below is queued to Pippen's comments at the 1h21m47s mark, but unfortunately, youtube makes you pay 1.99 to access this espn documentary).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h22m15s

Pippen also disappeared in the 1998 Finals, only averaging 15ppg on 41% shooting (Rodman was also MIA that series with only 8.3 rebs).

Pippen's career PER as a Bull: 19.6
Jordan's career PER as a Bull: 29.1




"The plan was to get the ball to Michael, and everybody else get the **** out of the way" Doug Collins, Head Coach, after Jordan's game-winner over Rodman in Game 3 of the 1989 Eastern Conference Finals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sM8sFgoSg2Q&t=21m43s




Isiah Thomas, the Pistons leader and Jordan's long-time enemy, clearly indicated on a recent episode of "Open Court" that Scottie Pippen was garbage and didn't deserve top 50 status - no one would know better than him.

"I talked with Joe Dumars for hours... we stayed up all night trying to figure out how to stop #23 in red"... Isiah Thomas, revealing how he and Dumars stayed up all night plotting against Jordan, the same night after Jordan's game-winner in Game 3 of the 1989 ECF.... the video below is queued to the spot, but it's from the 30 for 30 documentary, so youtube makes you pay $1.99 to get access.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h05m33s

We didn't even think about Scottie Pippen... it was Michael Jordan and the Jordanaires... and you can't win a games like that with only one player"... Bill Laimbeer, from 30 for 30 Bad Boys documentary (at the 1h7m35s mark).





Here's a FREE very informative documentary made in 2014 that is specifically and exclusively about the Pistons' Jordan Rules.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2v0LOhjsJs

Unlike many other greats that won rings, MJ did not have a 3rd scoring option and so in order for MJ to win his rings, he had to provide more production to his team than any player ever has (highest ever PER, PPG, Win Shares)....

In 6 Finals appearances, Jordan only had 3 games with less than 25 points, with his low being 22 points (with 9 rebs and 7 assists)... that's what was happening at the time..

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1998-06-11/sports/9806110398_1_scottie-pippen-bulls-karl-malone
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/635114/What-about-Pippen-for-NBA-Finals-MVP.html?pg=all
http://www.nytimes.com/1996/06/08/sports/nba-finals-once-again-rodman-is-most-valuable-bull.html
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1996-06-17/sports/9606170154_1_dennis-rodman-bulls-crowning-moment

Sorry bro, Jordan's the GOAT, but to act like he carried a bunch of scrubs and didn't get significant contributions from HOF caliber teammates or coaches is simply inaccurate.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1998-06-11/sports/9806110398_1_scottie-pippen-bulls-karl-malone
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/635114/What-about-Pippen-for-NBA-Finals-MVP.html?pg=all
http://www.nytimes.com/1996/06/08/sports/nba-finals-once-again-rodman-is-most-valuable-bull.html
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1996-06-17/sports/9606170154_1_dennis-rodman-bulls-crowning-moment

Sorry bro, Jordan's the GOAT, but to act like he carried a bunch of scrubs and didn't get significant contributions from HOF caliber teammates or coaches is simply inaccurate.

I wouldn't quote 3ball on anything. Judging by his post history, its pretty obvious he's young, trolling and never actually watched Jordan and the Bulls reign.

Do yourselves a favor and just skim over his posts. As Kblaze said, he makes us Jordan fans look really, REALLY bad. :oldlol:

[3ball]

Jordan's the GOAT, but to act like he carried a bunch of scrubs and didn't get significant contributions from HOF caliber teammates or coaches is simply inaccurate.


Sure, of course he got SOME contributions, but it's a fact that he got the smallest contribution from a supporting cast ever - how else can you explain Jordan winning his rings by producing more for his team than anyone in history (highest PER, PPG, Win Shares)?



Also, the articles about the 1998 Finals were all written tongue-in-cheek... they all ask the reader, "aren't you tired of Jordan?... that's so boring.. why not scottie this time.. wink wink?"

Here are ACTUAL quotes:

"So you're tired of Michael Jordan getting all the recognition, all the glory, all the accolades? Then try this for a change: Scottie Pippen, MVP."

Not only were those articles written tongue in cheek, but they were written after Game 4 - Pippen finished the series with 10 and 6 points in Games 5 and 6, for a 15ppg series average on 41% shooting.

So yes, Jordan's the goat, but the REASON he's the goat is specifically BECAUSE he had to carry the largest load ever... and won doing it.

Indeed, a scoring champ CAN lead a team to a championship - before Jordan, this was only a myth.
.

[sdot_thadon]

Very true - people forget how much of a mental midget Pippen was..

Pippen disappeared in game 7 of the 1990 Eastern Conference Finals due to migraines, which he ADMITTED was due to the pressure:

"Maybe it was the pressure of the game.. As the pressure grew, the pounding grew.." Scottie Pippen, admitting to folding under the pressure of Game 7 in the 30 for 30 Bad Boys documentary (the clip below is queued to Pippen's comments at the 1h21m47s mark, but unfortunately, youtube makes you pay 1.99 to access this espn documentary).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h22m15s

Pippen also disappeared in the 1998 Finals, only averaging 15ppg on 41% shooting (Rodman was also MIA that series with only 8.3 rebs).

Pippen's career PER as a Bull: 19.6
Jordan's career PER as a Bull: 29.1




"The plan was to get the ball to Michael, and everybody else get the **** out of the way" Doug Collins, Head Coach, after Jordan's game-winner over Rodman in Game 3 of the 1989 Eastern Conference Finals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sM8sFgoSg2Q&t=21m43s




Isiah Thomas, the Pistons leader and Jordan's long-time enemy, clearly indicated on a recent episode of "Open Court" that Scottie Pippen was garbage and didn't deserve top 50 status - no one would know better than him.

"I talked with Joe Dumars for hours... we stayed up all night trying to figure out how to stop #23 in red"... Isiah Thomas, revealing how he and Dumars stayed up all night plotting against Jordan, the same night after Jordan's game-winner in Game 3 of the 1989 ECF.... the video below is queued to the spot, but it's from the 30 for 30 documentary, so youtube makes you pay $1.99 to get access.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h05m33s

We didn't even think about Scottie Pippen... it was Michael Jordan and the Jordanaires... and you can't win a games like that with only one player"... Bill Laimbeer, from 30 for 30 Bad Boys documentary (at the 1h7m35s mark).





Here's a FREE very informative documentary made in 2014 that is specifically and exclusively about the Pistons' Jordan Rules.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2v0LOhjsJs

Unlike many other greats that won rings, MJ did not have a 3rd scoring option and so in order for MJ to win his rings, he had to provide more production to his team than any player ever has (highest ever PER, PPG, Win Shares)....

In 6 Finals appearances, Jordan only had 3 games with less than 25 points, with his low being 22 points (with 9 rebs and 7 assists)... that's what was happening at the time.
Nah bro, not this shit again.

[97 bulls]

Very true - people forget how much of a mental midget Pippen was..

Pippen disappeared in game 7 of the 1990 Eastern Conference Finals due to migraines, which he ADMITTED was due to the pressure:

"Maybe it was the pressure of the game.. As the pressure grew, the pounding grew.." Scottie Pippen, admitting to folding under the pressure of Game 7 in the 30 for 30 Bad Boys documentary (the clip below is queued to Pippen's comments at the 1h21m47s mark, but unfortunately, youtube makes you pay 1.99 to access this espn documentary).
Lol. You're taking his statement out of context. He already had the migrane prior to the game. He didn't get the migrane due to the pressure. And lets forget the fact that hus father died a fee weeks prior. The funny thing about that migrane game.....PIPPEN PLAYED 45 MINUTES. Abdul-Jabbar played sparingly when he had his migrane. And that was in the Finals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h22m15s


Pippen also disappeared in the 1998 Finals, only averaging 15ppg on 41% shooting (Rodman was also MIA that series with only 8.3 rebs).
Disappeared???? Did you not read the articles? What Stockton, Malone, and Sloan were saying about Pippens impact on the 98 Finals? Better yet. Did you watch the finals? Pip had one bad game and played with a bad back in another.

Pippen's career PER as a Bull: 19.6
Jordan's career PER as a Bull: 29.1





"The plan was to get the ball to Michael, and everybody else get the **** out of the way" Doug Collins, Head Coach, after Jordan's game-winner over Rodman in Game 3 of the 1989 Eastern Conference Finals.
Pippen was in his second year. What's the point?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sM8sFgoSg2Q&t=21m43s





Isiah Thomas, the Pistons leader and Jordan's long-time enemy, clearly indicated on a recent episode of "Open Court" that Scottie Pippen was garbage and didn't deserve top 50 status - no one would know better than him.
Lol. Isaiah Thomas? Since when has he ever been considered a great evaluator of talent? The Knicks are still trying to undue the mess he made when he was their GM. Allen Houston is still on their payroll.


"I talked with Joe Dumars for hours... we stayed up all night trying to figure out how to stop #23 in red"... Isiah Thomas, revealing how he and Dumars stayed up all night plotting against Jordan, the same night after Jordan's game-winner in Game 3 of the 1989 ECF.... the video below is queued to the spot, but it's from the 30 for 30 documentary, so youtube makes you pay $1.99 to get access.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h05m33s

We didn't even think about Scottie Pippen... it was Michael Jordan and the Jordanaires... and you can't win a games like that with only one player"... Bill Laimbeer, from 30 for 30 Bad Boys documentary (at the 1h7m35s mark).]
Again. I don't see how thus has any relevance. The Pistons also knew that up to that point Jordan wasn't a team player. And if you stop him you stop the Bulls.






Here's a FREE very informative documentary made in 2014 that is specifically and exclusively about the Pistons' Jordan Rules.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2v0LOhjsJs

Unlike many other greats that won rings, MJ did not have a 3rd scoring option and so in order for MJ to win his rings, he had to provide more production to his team than any player ever has (highest ever PER, PPG, Win Shares)....
Oh come on. Jordan played with two other Hofers and two hof coaches. And it'll be three when Kukoc gets in.

This line of reasoning never ceases to amaze me. Compare the Bulls when Jordan left to Magics Lakers and Birds Celtics when they abruptly left. The Bulls were much more successful. They all had basically two other hall of fame caliber teamamtes like Jordan.


In 6 Finals appearances, Jordan only had 3 games with less than 25 points, with his low being 22 points (with 9 rebs and 7 assists)... that's what was happening at the time.
And here is the problem with Jordan fans. They see any acknowledgement to Jordan teammates as a knock on Jordan. And then find themself comparing Jordan to Pippen or Rodman, or Phil Jackson. Showing his teammates worth in no way minimises Jordans. The fact is Jordan didnt win by himself. He had considerable help. Throughout the 90s, Jordan had the best SF, best 6th man, best shooter, best rebounder, and best coach. Which is why they were so damn good without him. And virtually unbeatable with him.

[97 bulls]

These are quotes taken from the article 3Ball says was tongue and cheek.


Defensively, he's the key component for us. He's a recovery. And we give him the authority to do whatever he wants on the defensive end . . . He can disrupt anybody's offense, really. And tonight was a great example of that.


Scottie has done a lot in terms of relieving some of the pressure off of me," said Jordan. "Defensively, he's the key component for us.*


I can't conjure up anybody who does all the things that Pippen does as a defender. I mean, he can defend anybody," Ramsay said. "


Defensively, he puts tremendous pressure on you. . . . He caused us a lot of problems, I think everybody is aware of that. We're aware of it," Sloan said. "We have trouble with him every time we play. And I don't know what more you can say. You can put him on any player on the floor, and he's going to do a terrific job defensively."


He did a terrific job getting in the open court, pulling up and taking the 3-point shots, and got in a great rhythm," Sloan said. "We had a difficult time trying to guard him."


Pippen impressed Jerry Sloan.

"He was sensational," said the Jazz's coach.
The author was very serious when he said Pippen was the front runner for MVP.

[lilteapot]

MJ was known as the GOAT after the first 3peat

[Sarcastic]

What mess are the Knicks still trying to undue from the Isiah Thomas years? Whatever mess is there now is from Donnie Walsh, not Isiah Thomas.

Allan Houston is with the Knicks because he is friends with Dolan from his playing days as a Knick, not because of Isiah Thomas.

[Smoke117]

What mess are the Knicks still trying to undue from the Isiah Thomas years? Whatever mess is there now is from Donnie Walsh, not Isiah Thomas.

Allan Houston is with the Knicks because he is friends with Dolan from his playing days as a Knick, not because of Isiah Thomas.

Isiah Thomas was equally awful as a coach and in the front office. If you don't know that...well I already know you're an idiot...I've seen your post...hum...:confusedshrug:

[97 bulls]

What mess are the Knicks still trying to undue from the Isiah Thomas years? Whatever mess is there now is from Donnie Walsh, not Isiah Thomas.

Allan Houston is with the Knicks because he is friends with Dolan from his playing days as a Knick, not because of Isiah Thomas.
What I said was tongue and cheek. Thomas was a bad evaluator of talent, hated Pippen, and is just a total Jack Ass

[Sarcastic]

What I said was tongue and cheek. Thomas was a bad evaluator of talent, hated Pippen, and is just a total Jack Ass


As a GM for both the Raptors and Knicks, he was actually a great evaluator of talent. When you look at his draft record, and the picks in front and below, his picks almost always panned out.

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/knicks/post/_/id/55772/isiah-thomas-ranked-best-draft-gm

One metric, put together by ESPN.com

[choppermagic]

Pippen's legacy and all time ranking would have taken a substantial boost with a Finals MVP in that run, while Jordan wouldn't be the near unanimous GOAT he is today

my thoughts exactly.

A FMVP win by Pippen, especially if early on, like first or second Bulls ring, would change the media focus to more of a Bulls super-"duo", rather than MJ focused so it would have done a lot for Pippen, and a lot to deflate MJ's GOAT status.

For example, imagine if Kobe won FMVP in 2000 and Shaq in 2001 and 2002. All of a sudden the media perception changes to Kobe is the man, and he deferred his game to allow Shaq to win it in later years. It makes a big difference in the media's perspective.

[3ball]

[QUOTE=Sarcastic]As a GM for both the Raptors and Knicks, he was actually a great evaluator of talent. When you look at his draft record, and the picks in front and below, his picks almost always panned out.

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/knicks/post/_/id/55772/isiah-thomas-ranked-best-draft-gm

One metric, put together by ESPN.com

[3ball]

And here is the problem with Jordan fans. They see any acknowledgement to Jordan teammates as a knock on Jordan.


and the problem with non-jordan fans is that they can't seem to understand the following:

jordan had the highest production of any player ever, which means he had the least help ever.

comprende?

[lilteapot]

and the problem with non-jordan fans is that they can't seem to understand the following:

jordan had the highest production of any player ever, which means he had the least help ever.

comprende?
Or it could mean he took away a lot of opportunities from his teammates.

[Smoke117]

I don't think I've ever seen any us Pippen fans make a single thread about Scottie. Kobe stans do, Jordan stans do, Lebron stans do...basically the topic varies by the agenda.

[97 bulls]

and the problem with non-jordan fans is that they can't seem to understand the following:

jordan had the highest production of any player ever, which means he had the least help ever.

comprende?
As far as scoring? Sure. He wasnt the Bulls best defender. Pippen was. He wasnt their best rebounder, Rodman was. Pippen was also the facilitaor and thus normally led the team in assists.

If ibremember correct. Larry Bird and Lebron James led their teams in Pts, Rbds, and asts during a championship run. Jordan never even needed to do that

[97 bulls]

I don't think I've ever seen any us Pippen fans make a single thread about Scottie. Kobe stans do, Jordan stans do, Lebron stans do...basically the topic varies by the agenda.
It never happens. Or rarely. I normally dont respond until I see blatantly stupid posts.

[3ball]

Or it could mean he took away a lot of opportunities from his teammates.
That's the beauty of it... the bulls went 6/6 while he was providing the highest production ever.

So he wasn't stepping on anyone's toes in a way that would hurt the team.

And he did it within the triangle offense, which was an equal opportunity offense that forced players to make quick decisions... the triangle was a pass-initiation offense that didn't allow extensive dribbling like the more dribble-intensive screen-roll offenses do today.

This is why guys like JR Smith are having to so much trouble learning the triangle - but meanwhile, Jordan produced more than any player ever has within this equal-opportunity system... This takes goat skill (off-ball skill including the post, goat shooting touch, and feetwork).

[97 bulls]

[QUOTE=Sarcastic]As a GM for both the Raptors and Knicks, he was actually a great evaluator of talent. When you look at his draft record, and the picks in front and below, his picks almost always panned out.

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/knicks/post/_/id/55772/isiah-thomas-ranked-best-draft-gm

One metric, put together by ESPN.com

[3ball]

^^^^^^^^^^ you need to learn the definition of "talent evaluator".

this only relates to the draft - and Isiah's draft picks were goat, hence tom haberstroh calling him the best talent evaluator of our time.

[3ball]

As far as scoring? Sure. He wasnt the Bulls best defender. Pippen was. He wasnt their best rebounder, Rodman was. Pippen was also the facilitaor and thus normally led the team in assists.

Jordan was the Bulls best defender... His impact on the game defensively is unmatched for a non-big man.

Not only did he win Defensive Player of the Year and average more steals and same blocks than Pippen, but contrary to popular belief, Jordan guarded Magic for the ENTIRE 1991 Finals except for about 20 minutes in Game 2... I will post the video of each game here to prove it if I have to.

Also, Jordan averaged more assists than Pippen... and he did so playing off-ball... the only reason Pippen got to be the primary ballhandler is because that was his strength, so it made sense to let Scottie handle the ball and therefore get max production out of him, and STILL get the same goat production from MJ playing off-ball.

this was only possible because of Jordan's off-ball capability - i.e. lebron can't get his SAME production playing entirely off-ball, which is why he had to step on Chalmers and Wade's toes by needing to be the primary ballhandler to get his numbers.




If ibremember correct. Larry Bird and Lebron James led their teams in Pts, Rbds, and asts during a championship run. Jordan never had to do that.
The only way to measure production so it accounts for playing time and pace differences, is to look at per-100 possession stats.

In the playoffs, Lebron averages 36.2 points and 8.4 assists per 100 possessions.

Meanwhile, Jordan averaged 43.3 points and 7.4 assists..

This proves that Jordan's production is much greater.... :confusedshrug:

[Smoke117]

You really need to shut the **** up about this off the ball nonsense, 3ball. It's not like Jordan was catching and shooting or slashing to the basket...he put the ball on the floor all the time. Just because he doesn't initiate the offense...that doesn't make him an off the ball player. Inbred clown.

[OldSchoolBBall]

You really need to shut the **** up about this off the ball nonsense, 3ball. It's not like Jordan was catching and shooting or slashing to the basket...he put the ball on the floor all the time. Just because he doesn't initiate the offense...that doesn't make him an off the ball player. Inbred clown.

Jordan was very much an off-ball player. You're blind if you don't see that. Not EXCLUSIVELY an off-ball player a la Miller or prime Rip Hamilton, but about 30-40% of his offense during the first three-peat and 60% of his offense during the second three-peat was initiated off the ball. He was a quick strike player, which allowed his teammates' talents (especially Pippen's) to flourish since he didn't need to dominate the ball.

[97 bulls]

Jordan was the Bulls best defender... His impact on the game defensively is unmatched for a non-big man.
If you were to make a thread asking who was the better defender between Jordan and Pippen, Pippen would get more votes.


Not only did he win Defensive Player of the Year and average more steals and same blocks than Pippen, but contrary to popular belief, Jordan guarded Magic for the ENTIRE 1991 Finals except for about 20 minutes in Game 2... I will post the video of each game here to prove it if I have to.
I know Jordan drew the defensive assignment of Magic in 91. But Pippen did for game two. After that game, Jordan didn't exclusively stick Magic. I remember Phil Jackson putting him on Divac as well.



Also, Jordan averaged more assists than Pippen..
Really? During the Bulls Championship runs this was their assists avgs
91
6.2/5.5 Pippen

92
7/6 Pippen

93
6.3/5.5 Pippen

96
5.9/4.3 Pippen

97
6.5/5.9 Pippen

98
5.8/3.5 Pippen


and he did so playing off-ball... the only reason Pippen got to be the primary ballhandler is because that was his strength, so it made sense to let Scottie handle the ball and therefore get max production out of him, and STILL get the same goat production from MJ playing off-ball.
Pippen was the primary ball handler because he had a PGs mentality.


this was only possible because of Jordan's off-ball capability - i.e. lebron can't get his SAME production playing entirely off-ball, which is why he had to step on Chalmers and Wade's toes by needing to be the primary ballhandler to get his numbers.

I'm not comparing Jordan and James. Im comparing their statistical contributions to their respective teams. Why? Because you said no other player has had to do more for their team. The fact is thats not true.



The only way to measure production so it accounts for playing time and pace differences, is to look at per-100 possession stats.


In the playoffs, Lebron averages 36.2 points and 8.4 assists per 100 possessions.

Meanwhile, Jordan averaged 43.3 points and 7.4 assists..

This proves that Jordan's production is much greater.... :confusedshrug:
Again. Im not saying that James is better than Jordan. Im saying when you look at their roles and contributions, James and Bird are two players that did more for their.teams than Jordan had to. Doesnt make them better. Its just a luxury Jordan had.

[PsychoBe]

Again. Im not saying that James is better than Jordan. Im saying when you look at their roles and contributions, James and Bird are two players that did more for their.teams than Jordan had to. Doesnt make them better. Its just a luxury Jordan had.

how can you say they did more for their team if jordan had the highest production rating and offensive efficiency rating by all advanced statistical measures than any player ever and as quoted as by kenny smith, "didn't have the luxury of having a second option get double teamed and had to carry the offensive load for an entire career" :facepalm

stop throwing pebbles at a bulletproof glass. he's the goat for a reason go watch more footage or something.

[97 bulls]

how can you say they did more for their team if jordan had the highest production rating and offensive efficiency rating by all advanced statistical measures than any player ever and as quoted as by kenny smith, "didn't have the luxury of having a second option get double teamed and had to carry the offensive load for an entire career" :facepalm

stop throwing pebbles at a bulletproof glass. he's the goat for a reason go watch more footage or something.
Dude. Theres more to basketball than scoring. Perhaps if Wade were capable of defending Tony Parker or Kawhi Leonard the way Pippen did Magic, Hardaway, Stockton, etc, James would still be a member of the Miami Heat. Why couldn't Wade switch off on Terry in 2011?

You know why the Bulls were capable of winning championships even if Jordan had a sub par performance by his standards? Because defensively, they had so many weapons.

Do you think the Bulls win in 96 had Rodman not went nuts with his rebounding?

Why did the Bulls manage to be competitive after Jordan leaving while the Lakers and Celtics suck? And mind you, they replaced Jordan with Pete Myers while Bird was replaced with Reggie Lewis, and Magic Sedale threat.

You think the Heat are still good enough to win 60+ games this year? They better. Seeing as how you feel theyre better than what Jordan had, and have replaced James with Luol Deng.

[3ball]

Dude. Theres more to basketball than scoring. Perhaps if Wade were capable of defending Tony Parker or Kawhi Leonard the way Pippen did Magic, Hardaway, Stockton, etc, James would still be a member of the Miami Heat. Why couldn't Wade switch off on Terry in 2011?

You know why the Bulls were capable of winning championships even if Jordan had a sub par performance by his standards? Because defensively, they had so many weapons.

Do you think the Bulls win in 96 had Rodman not went nuts with his rebounding?

Why did the Bulls manage to be competitive after Jordan leaving while the Lakers and Celtics suck? And mind you, they replaced Jordan with Pete Myers while Bird was replaced with Reggie Lewis, and Magic Sedale threat.

You think the Heat are still good enough to win 60+ games this year? They better. Seeing as how you feel theyre better than what Jordan had, and have replaced James with Luol Deng.
Everyone on the Bulls was somewhat replaceable, except Jordan.

Even Kukocs stepped right into Pippen's point-forward role and averaged 5.3 assists and 18 points per game after Pippen went to Houston in 1999.

And even if the Bulls didn't have Rodman, they would have found another big man to rebound, just like they had with Horace... granted, a different PF would not have gotten AS MANY rebounds, but he would have scored at least twice as much as Rodman, so Jordan and Scottie would not need to score as much, and could have saved energy to shore up the rebounding and defense instead... :confusedshrug:

finding a big man to get you 10 boards is not that hard - the cavs currently have at least 3, and they all score at least twice as much as rodman.

also, the bulls were a 2nd round exit team without Jordan - that is a far cry from 3-time, back-to-back-to-back champs, wouldn't you think?

the only reason they did okay in the 1994 regular season was because they still had the swagger/confidence of being 3-time DEFENDING champions, and were trying to prove they didn't suck without their leader... but in reality, they were playing super-hard all year, like playoff intensity, but were BARELY beating teams - their SRS was razor-thin margin.

look what happened the next year when they no longer had that 3-time defending champion swagger/confidence - the bottom fell completely out - they sucked all year until superman came back... then they went on a run and were able to make the playoffs.
.

[97 bulls]

Everyone on the Bulls was somewhat replaceable, except Jordan.
No. Everyone was replaceable. Including Jordan. Would they be as dominant? No. But theres no doubt in my mind that if the Bulls had Mitch Richmond or Latrell Sprewell in Jordans place in 94, they win the championship. I also feel if And Iguodal type player were.to replace Pippen theyd still win. But heres he rub. In both alternate scenarios, they dont win 6 championships, 72, 69, and 67 games. That Team was that good. Take away any of the big three and theyd compete, but not win. We saw that in 94 without Jordan, 95 without Rodman, and im sure the same result would've happened in 98 had Pippen not returned


Even Kukocs stepped right into Pippen's point-forward role and averaged 5.3 assists and 18 points per game after Pippen went to Houston in 1999.
Come bro. Your better than this


And even if the Bulls didn't have Rodman, they would have found another big man to rebound, just like they had with Horace... granted, a different PF would not have gotten AS MANY rebounds, but he would have scored at least twice as much as Rodman, so Jordan and Scottie would not need to score as much, and could have saved energy to shore up the rebounding and defense instead... :confusedshrug:
Then why couldn't they win in 95? I dont sucribe to the notion that Jordan was Rusty. Sure he had a few miscues, but that happens. They just weren't good enough.


finding a big man to get you 10 boards is not that hard - the cavs currently have at least 3, and they all score at least twice as much as rodman.
And none of them would have the impact of Rodman.


also, the bulls were a 2nd round exit team without Jordan - that is a far cry from 3-time, back-to-back-to-back champs, wouldn't you think?
Absolutely. And the success they did have was a far cry from what was expected. And again much better than past dynasties in the same situations.


the only reason they did okay in the 1994 regular season was because they still had the swagger/confidence of being 3-time DEFENDING champions, and were trying to prove they didn't suck without their leader... but in reality, they were playing super-hard all year, like playoff intensity, but were BARELY beating teams - their SRS was razor-thin margin.
Lol. So????? They were winning.


look what happened the next year when they no longer had that 3-time defending champion swagger/confidence - the bottom fell completely out - they sucked all year until superman came back... then they went on a run and were able to make the playoffs.
.
When Jordan came back, they were a fifth seed. So they were solidly a playoff caliber team. And mind you, thats with No Williams, King, Cartwright, and an inured Luc Longley. Their frontline was Kukoc(who was a tall perimeter player) Perdue, Greg Foster, Larry Krystowiak, and Dickey Simpkins (a rookie Dickey Simpkins no less). They had no viable bigs.

[3ball]

But theres no doubt in my mind that if the Bulls had Mitch Richmond or Latrell Sprewell in Jordans place in 94, they win the championship.

this proves you don't know anything about basketball - in order to win their championships, the Bulls needed to get the highest production that anyone's ever produced from Jordan...

They were one shot away from going to Game 7 against Phoenix in 1993, and just a couple possessions away from going 7 with Portland in 1992...

So they needed every bit of that production from Jordan (again, this production was the most production anyone's ever produced, especially in the Finals)... the production that sprewell and richmond were capable of is a flat-out JOKE compared to Jordan's 34ppg Finals average and goat clutch play....

what would those guys average???... something like Lebron's 24ppg Finals average... probably less actually, more like 21 or 22 per game and no goat clutch.


Then why couldn't they win in 95? I dont sucribe to the notion that Jordan was Rusty... Sure he had a few miscues..

You don't subscribe to the notion that Jordan is rusty - why?... because you don't want to?

Sorry but you HAVE to - Jordan's numbers were SIGNIFICANTLY WORSE that year.. it's a simple fact that he was rusty as hell... it was both obvious and common knowledge to all who watched at the time.

Also, in case you didn't know, up until that series in 1995 vs. Orlando, Jordan had NEVER turned the ball over on the last possession... NEVER.. EVER... EVER... it's quite an amazing stat and a testament to Jordan's low turnover style and mental focus/strength in the clutch.... otoh, we've seen lebron turn it over on the last possession a bunch of times.


And none of them would have the impact of Rodman.

Rodman couldn't score - on offense, the Bulls were playing 4 on 5.... This forced Jordan to undertake a larger scoring role in his mid-30's than he should have.... Can you imagine if Bosh only averaged 4ppg?... How much would Wade and Lebron have to shoulder?... and those babies were already complaining about their load (at least Lebron was).

Rodman only averaged 8.3 rebs in the 1998 Finals btw... ANYONE could have replaced that... this lack of production coupled with Pippen's 15.1 ppg on 41% shooting ensured that Jordan would have to produce the greatest clutch play the game has ever seen in order for the Bulls to win.



Lol. So????? They were winning.

being 3-time defending champions gives you a confidence that you can't buy or manufacture any other way..

the bulls played super-hard all year at a playoff intensity to prove themselves without Jordan, and were barely beat teams with one of the lowest SRS margins ever... then when the playoffs came, they were only a 2nd-round exit team, despite all that confidence and regular season swagger.

they were a 2nd round exit team without Jordan.... and a 3-time, back-to-back-to-back champions with Jordan... but keep acting like this isn't a massive chasm.


When Jordan came back, they were a fifth seed. So they were solidly a playoff caliber team. And mind you, thats with No Williams, King, Cartwright, and an inured Luc Longley. Their frontline was Kukoc(who was a tall perimeter player) Perdue, Greg Foster, Larry Krystowiak, and Dickey Simpkins (a rookie Dickey Simpkins no less). They had no viable bigs.
they were 34-32 when Jordan came back - so they were a far cry from the team the year before that won 55 games off of confidence from being the 3-time defending champs... they finished the year 47-35 - so they were 13-2 to finish the year WITH Jordan - massive difference obviously.

[Nevaeh]

this proves you don't know anything about basketball - the Bulls needed the highest production that anyone's ever produced from Jordan to win his championships...

They were one shot away from going to Game 7 against Phoenix and just a couple possessions away from going 7 with Portland...

So they needed every bit of that production from Jordan (that was the most production anyone's ever produced, especially in the Finals)... the production that sprewell and richmond were capable of is a flat-out JOKE compared to Jordan's 34ppg Finals average and goat clutch play.



And that's leaving out Jordan's MAJOR clutch play in the 97 finals (game winner in gm. 1, flu game, pass to kerr off the double team). Don't even need to bring up MJ's clutch play in gm. 6 of the 98 finals, with a gimped Pippen heading back and forth to the locker room all night.

One thing that I can guarantee is that you will NOT be seeing that kind of production and clutch play from either Richmond or Spreewell in any finals under that kind of pressure.

[sportjames23]

And that's leaving out Jordan's MAJOR clutch play in the 97 finals (game winner in gm. 1, flu game, pass to kerr off the double team). Don't even need to bring up MJ's clutch play in gm. 6 of the 98 finals, with a gimped Pippen heading back and forth to the locker room all night.

One thing that I can guarantee is that you will NOT be seeing that kind of production and clutch play from either Richmond or Spreewell in any finals under that kind of pressure.

Or Lebron.

[97 bulls]

this proves you don't know anything about basketball - in order to win their championships, the Bulls needed to get the highest production that anyone's ever produced from Jordan...
Go back.....reread my post. I plainly stated that the Bulls win in 1994 with a better.SG.


They were one shot away from going to Game 7 against Phoenix in 1993, and just a couple possessions away from going 7 with Portland in 1992...
I never stated anything remotely close to lead you to believe I feel The Bulls could win with any run of the mill SG. Youre putting words in my mouth. What I said was they all were replaceable but at a cost. They wouldn't have been nearly as dominant. No six championships the two threepeats, the insane amount of wins. Replace Jordan with an allstar caliber SG, and they'd still wouldve won in 91, 96, and 97. They were that good.


So they needed every bit of that production from Jordan (again, this production was the most production anyone's ever produced, especially in the Finals)... the production that sprewell and richmond were capable of is a flat-out JOKE compared to Jordan's 34ppg Finals average and goat clutch play....
You get no argument from me. Doesn't mean that another player couldn't do it but not as dominant.


what would those guys average???... something like Lebron's 24ppg Finals average... probably less actually, more like 21 or 22 per game and no goat clutch.
Probably.



You don't subscribe to the notion that Jordan is rusty - why?... because you don't want to?
No. Because I feel he wasn't. The Bulls just werent good enough. And I feel their chemistry was off.



Sorry but you HAVE to - Jordan's numbers were SIGNIFICANTLY WORSE that year.. it's a simple fact that he was rusty as hell... it was both obvious and common knowledge to all who watched at the time.
No apology needed. I just feel it was a cop out. Not so much by Jordan, but from his supporters. Thats why the Bulls went out and got Rodman.


Also, in case you didn't know, up until that series in 1995 vs. Orlando, Jordan had NEVER turned the ball over on the last possession... NEVER.. EVER... EVER... it's quite an amazing stat and a testament to Jordan's low turnover style and mental focus/strength in the clutch.... otoh, we've seen lebron turn it over on the last possession a bunch of times.
Im not arguing Jordans greatness. Im saying he had great teammates.



Rodman couldn't score - on offense, the Bulls were playing 4 on 5.... This forced Jordan to undertake a larger scoring role in his mid-30's than he should have.... Can you imagine if Bosh only averaged 4ppg?... How much would Wade and Lebron have to shoulder?... and those babies were already complaining about their load (at least Lebron was).
As i stated earler, there is more to basketball than just scoring. How many times have the best offense won a title? In one of those clips you posted, Jordan said that there was a general understanding that a scoring leader couldn't win a title. Even in Rodmans case, you leave him unaccounted for and hed end up grabbing 20 rebds.


Rodman only averaged 8.3 rebs in the 1998 Finals btw... ANYONE could have replaced that... this lack of production coupled with Pippen's 15.1 ppg on 41% shooting ensured that Jordan would have to produce the greatest clutch play the game has ever seen in order for the Bulls to win.
We already discussed this. At some point I just have to assign you to ignorance. The Bulls git that 3-1 lead off their defense that was spearheaded by Pippen. Both Jordan and Pippen played terrible in game 5. Pippen got hurt in game 6, and Jordan saved the day. Play out that game 6 10 times under the exact same circumstances and the Bulls are going to a game seven at least six of them.

Granted Rodman only avgd 8 rebounds, but he played Malone well. I beleiev Malone shot 40% when he was defended by Rodman. And the Jazz made an effort to actually box him out.




being 3-time defending champions gives you a confidence that you can't buy or manufacture any other way..

the bulls played super-hard all year at a playoff intensity to prove themselves without Jordan, and were barely beat teams with one of the lowest SRS margins ever... then when the playoffs came, they were only a 2nd-round exit team, despite all that confidence and regular season swagger.
Go back and look at that roster. Gone from that championship team was Jordan, King, Tucker, and Walker. Williams was hurt almost the whole season, Cartwright and Paxson were old and played sparringly. Kerr, Myers, Longley, Wennigton, and Kukoc didn't have any playoff experience much less championship swagger.


they were a 2nd round exit team without Jordan.... and a 3-time, back-to-back-to-back champions with Jordan... but keep acting like this isn't a massive chasm.
I agree. But what you fail to acknowledge is how much worse Shaqs Lakers did when he left, or Birds Celtics, or Magics Lakers. Why? Youd have a much better argument if Pippen and Grant and co. joined a Jordan led bulls team that was winning championships.


they were 34-32 when Jordan came back - so they were a far cry from the team the year before that won 55 games off of confidence from being the 3-time defending champs... they finished the year 47-35 - so they were 13-2 to finish the year WITH Jordan - massive difference obviously.
Sure they were a far cry from the 94 team. They had no bigs to speak of. As I listed earlier, they lost Grant, Williams, King, Longley was hurt, Kukoc was forced to play center at times. And even under those circumstances they were stil the fifth seed upon Jordans return.

[3ball]

Go back.....reread my post. I plainly stated that the Bulls win in 1994 with a better.SG.

How do the Bulls win it all with another SG in 1994, if the production they needed from that position to win championships the previous 3 seasons, was the most production ever provided by any player ever?



They wouldn't have been nearly as dominant. No six championships the two threepeats, the insane amount of wins. Replace Jordan with an allstar caliber SG, and they'd still wouldve won in 91, 96, and 97. They were that good.

Again, how do they win with anyone else, if the production they needed from that position to win their championships was the most production ever produced by any player ever?



Doesn't mean that another player couldn't do it but not as dominant.

You contradict yourself right here - if they can't be as dominant, then they aren't doing it.

And the Bulls needed Jordan's dominance - all those series were very close and were within a possession of going the other way.

Even in 1991, Jordan had to hit a game-tying buzzer beater to send Game 3 into overtime and prevent LA from going up 2-1... it's actually one of the biggest shots of his career - if he misses it, the Lakers go up 2-1 with two more at home.. http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/e4149a3845e929c213921e97e1a1ac07.gif

Between the other 5 Finals, he hit 3 game-winners and had the flu game.
http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/72819e470fc9442abdd482a771cfabf7.gif
http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/9bc4ae543ef241ac7716ea5a4beac59d.gif
http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_GOAT_Final_Shot_1d27acc3354a339adacd2c511bc 0ed72.gif




I feel he wasn't (rusty in 1995).

the stats prove he was rusty, no matter how much you want it to be otherwise.



Thats why the Bulls went out and got Rodman.

Despite Jordan's rustiness, I agree that they have always needed a double-digit rebounder in the frontcourt to win - but every team needs that and the Bulls didn't specifically need Rodman or his 15 rebounds per game... They proved as much with the first 3-peat when they won with just Horace Grant's 10 rebounds per game...

So anybody that could get 10 boards would do - they proved as much with Horace Grant, who was an ordinary role player, like Varejao or something.



In one of those clips you posted, Jordan said that there was a general understanding that a scoring leader couldn't win a title.

The point of Jordan saying that is because HE was the one that was going to buck the trend - he was the first guy to be scoring champ and win a ring in the same year (other than Kareem in 71').


The Bulls git that 3-1 lead off their defense

You are forgetting that low scoring was a given in this series because the pace was so ridiculously slow... Both teams were only scoring in the 80's every game, so each bucket was that much harder to get, and was that much more important.... which is why Jordan's 33.5 ppg is remarkable, because it represented 38% of his team's 88 points per game - this could be a record; I'll have to look that up.

But since each bucket was so important and harder to come by due to the slow pace, no factor was any bigger in getting the Bulls a 3-1 lead than Jordan's 33, 37, 24, and 34 points through 4 games... offense matters even more when the pace is slow.



Granted Rodman only avgd 8 rebounds, but he played Malone well. I beleiev Malone shot 40% when he was defended by Rodman.

Malone shot over 50% in that series.

But regarding Rodman - this goes back to the slow pace, and how that makes each bucket much more important... rodman forced the bulls to play 4 on 5, which is much tougher with a slower pace, which is why Jordan had to score possibly the largest proportion of a team's points ever (33.5 ppg of his team's 88ppg, so 38% of his team's points).



Go back and look at that roster. Gone from that championship team was Jordan, King, Tucker, and Walker. Williams was hurt almost the whole season, Cartwright and Paxson were old and played sparringly. Kerr, Myers, Longley, Wennigton, and Kukoc didn't have any playoff experience much less championship swagger.

This is the biggest mistake Jordan-haters make - they think that guys OTHER THAN Pippen, Grant, Rodman, and Kukocs were anything more than borderline NBA players that could easily be playing overseas.

All those guys you listed - Wennington, Longley, Will Perdue, BJ Armstrong, Paxson, Kerr, Jason Caffey, fossil John Salley, Stacey King, fossils Trent Tucker and Walker - they are all literally straight trash - borderline NBA players... the only thing that gave these guys careers or helped them stay in the league was the Triangle and having the GOAT diversion in Jordan... But otherwise, they were actually NBDL-quality players.

this was common knowledge to Bulls fans at the time, but we didn't care, we actually LIKED it because we had superman and it gave him reason to do hero shit.

But anyway, the Bulls scrubs were nothing compared to Ray Allen, Birdman, Chalmers, Haslem, Varejao, Tristan Thompson, Dion Waiters - notice that i'm not mentioning or comparing the top players, only the role players... And as you can see, Lebron's role players are nowhere near the crappy, NBDL-quality like Jordan's role players all were.



I agree. But what you fail to acknowledge is how much worse Shaqs Lakers did when he left, or Birds Celtics, or Magics Lakers. Why? Youd have a much better argument if Pippen and Grant and co. joined a Jordan led bulls team that was winning championships.

When Shaq left, so did Gary Payton, Karl Malone, Robert Horry, Rick Fox and Derek Fisher... so your argument is garbage and can't even apply to Shaq.

Bird's Celtics were old - the entire team - McHale and Parish got old the same time Bird did.

So again, you have no argument here - you are just fishing in the hopes that you can discredit Jordan's GOAT stats and accomplishments, so maybe Lebron can get a sniff of Jordan's ass in the goat conversation... give it up boss... it's a futile effort.
.

[bond10]

How do the Bulls win it all with another SG in 1994, if the production they needed from that position to win championships the previous 3 seasons, was the most production ever provided by any player ever?



Again, how do they win with anyone else, if the production they needed from that position to win their championships was the most production ever produced by any player ever?



You contradict yourself right here - if they can't be as dominant, then they aren't doing it.

And the Bulls needed Jordan's dominance - all those series were very close and were within a possession of going the other way.

Even in 1991, Jordan had to hit a game-tying buzzer beater to send Game 3 into overtime and prevent LA from going up 2-1... it's actually one of the biggest shots of his career - if he misses it, the Lakers go up 2-1 with two more at home.. http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/e4149a3845e929c213921e97e1a1ac07.gif

Between the other 5 Finals, he hit 3 game-winners and had the flu game.
http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/72819e470fc9442abdd482a771cfabf7.gif
http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/9bc4ae543ef241ac7716ea5a4beac59d.gif
http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_GOAT_Final_Shot_1d27acc3354a339adacd2c511bc 0ed72.gif




the stats prove he was rusty, no matter how much you want it to be otherwise.



Despite Jordan's rustiness, I agree that they have always needed a double-digit rebounder in the frontcourt to win - but every team needs that and the Bulls didn't specifically need Rodman or his 15 rebounds per game... They proved as much with the first 3-peat when they won with just Horace Grant's 10 rebounds per game...

So anybody that could get 10 boards would do - they proved as much with Horace Grant, who was an ordinary role player, like Varejao or something.



The point of Jordan saying that is because HE was the one that was going to buck the trend - he was the first guy to be scoring champ and win a ring in the same year (other than Kareem in 71').


You are forgetting that low scoring was a given in this series because the pace was so ridiculously slow... Both teams were only scoring in the 80's every game, so each bucket was that much harder to get, and was that much more important.... which is why Jordan's 33.5 ppg is remarkable, because it represented 38% of his team's 88 points per game - this could be a record; I'll have to look that up.

But since each bucket was so important and harder to come by due to the slow pace, no factor was any bigger in getting the Bulls a 3-1 lead than Jordan's 33, 37, 24, and 34 points through 4 games... offense matters even more when the pace is slow.



Malone shot over 50% in that series.

But regarding Rodman - this goes back to the slow pace, and how that makes each bucket much more important... rodman forced the bulls to play 4 on 5, which is much tougher with a slower pace, which is why Jordan had to score possibly the largest proportion of a team's points ever (33.5 ppg of his team's 88ppg, so 38% of his team's points).



This is the biggest mistake Jordan-haters make - they think that guys OTHER THAN Pippen, Grant, Rodman, and Kukocs were anything more than borderline NBA players that could easily be playing overseas.

All those guys you listed - Wennington, Longley, Will Perdue, BJ Armstrong, Paxson, Kerr, Jason Caffey, fossil John Salley, Stacey King, fossils Trent Tucker and Walker - they are all literally straight trash - borderline NBA players... the only thing that gave these guys careers or helped them stay in the league was the Triangle and having the GOAT diversion in Jordan... But otherwise, they were actually NBDL-quality players.

this was common knowledge to Bulls fans at the time, but we didn't care, we actually LIKED it because we had superman and it gave him reason to do hero shit.

But anyway, the Bulls scrubs were nothing compared to Ray Allen, Birdman, Chalmers, Haslem, Varejao, Tristan Thompson, Dion Waiters - notice that i'm not mentioning or comparing the top players, only the role players... And as you can see, Lebron's role players are nowhere near the crappy, NBDL-quality like Jordan's role players all were.



When Shaq left, so did Gary Payton, Karl Malone, Robert Horry, Rick Fox and Derek Fisher... so your argument is garbage and can't even apply to Shaq.

Bird's Celtics were old - the entire team - McHale and Parish got old the same time Bird did.

So again, you have no argument here - you are just fishing in the hopes that you can discredit Jordan's GOAT stats and accomplishments, so maybe Lebron can get a sniff of Jordan's ass in the goat conversation... give it up boss... it's a futile effort.
.

ethered. 97Bulls' head up Pippen's ass, what else is new.

[97 bulls]

How do the Bulls win it all with another SG in 1994, if the production they needed from that position to win championships the previous 3 seasons, was the most production ever provided by any player ever?
In three of the Bulls four losses, Pete Myers avgd 3/2/1 roughly. And the Bulls lost those games by 4, 5, and 1 pt. You gonna tell me that an All Star caliber guard capable of contributing 23/5/5 as well as being a good defender wouldn't have got then past the Knicks? I mean the Bulls werent swept. And then factor in that the Knicks beat the Pacers in 7 and lost to the Rockets in 7. Don't allow your agenda to get in the way of reason.




Again, how do they win with anyone else, if the production they needed from that position to win their championships was the most production ever produced by any player ever?
Because they were sooooo much more talented than any other team. They won.55 games without Jordan for goodness sake.




You contradict yourself right here - if they can't be as dominant, then they aren't doing it.
How? Jordan is clearly the best ever. The greatest of the greats. But hes not the only great. Its not contradictory to say the Bulls could've won with a lesser player but to a lesser extent. You feel Jordan was the only way they could win.


And the Bulls needed Jordan's dominance - all those series were very close and were within a possession of going the other way.
The 94 series vs the Knicks was close. And yet you feel the Bulls still wouldnt have got oast the Knicks even with a drastic improvement to their roster.


Even in 1991, Jordan had to hit a game-tying buzzer beater to send Game 3 into overtime and prevent LA from going up 2-1... it's actually one of the biggest shots of his career - if he misses it, the Lakers go up 2-1 with two more at home.
And in game two, Jordan got into early foul trouble defending Magic. Had Pippen not been able to step in and take Jordans place, the Bulls go down 0-2 with thre games in LA. Dont be so narrow minded.



the stats prove he was rusty, no matter how much you want it to be otherwise.
They do? Jordan avgd 32/7/5 on 48%. Thats hardly rusty




Despite Jordan's rustiness, I agree that they have always needed a double-digit rebounder in the frontcourt to win - but every team needs that and the Bulls didn't specifically need Rodman or his 15 rebounds per game... They proved as much with the first 3-peat when they won with just Horace Grant's 10 rebounds per game...
You're arguing with yourself bro. I told you a few posts ago, all of the Bulls were relpaceable.



You are forgetting that low scoring was a given in this series because the pace was so ridiculously slow... Both teams were only scoring in the 80's every game, so each bucket was that much harder to get, and was that much more important.... which is why Jordan's 33.5 ppg is remarkable, because it represented 38% of his team's 88 points per game - this could be a record; I'll have to look that up.
Jordan chose to shoot at that rate. Go back and look at the Dream Team. Jordan alone took almost as many shots as the 3rd and 4th players on list. Why? Even more, everyone on that team shot around 60%. Jordan shot 45. Thats Jordans mentality.

Again did they need Jordan to win on a level they did sure. Meaning the six championships, the 72 wins, 69, and 67. The margin of victory. But to win? No that team was too good. They could've won with a viable replacement. And that goes for all of the Bulls



But regarding Rodman - this goes back to the slow pace, and how that makes each bucket much more important... rodman forced the bulls to play 4 on 5, which is much tougher with a slower pace, which is why Jordan had to score possibly the largest proportion of a team's points ever (33.5 ppg of his team's 88ppg, so 38% of his team's points).
Again. Theres more to offense than just scoring. You had to keep a body on Rodman. If not, hed end up grabbing 20-25 rbds with 10 to 11 on the offensive end.




This is the biggest mistake Jordan-haters make - they think that guys OTHER THAN Pippen, Grant, Rodman, and Kukocs were anything more than borderline NBA players that could easily be playing overseas.

All those guys you listed - Wennington, Longley, Will Perdue, BJ Armstrong, Paxson, Kerr, Jason Caffey, fossil John Salley, Stacey King, fossils Trent Tucker and Walker - they are all literally straight trash - borderline NBA players... the only thing that gave these guys careers or helped them stay in the league was the Triangle and having the GOAT diversion in Jordan... But otherwise, they were actually NBDL-quality players.
Oh save it. Jordan can't make the shot for them. They were serviceable. Besides, theres only 12 men available for an NBA game. You acknowledged five of them.



But anyway, the Bulls scrubs were nothing compared to Ray Allen, Birdman, Chalmers, Haslem, Varejao, Tristan Thompson, Dion Waiters - notice that i'm not mentioning or comparing the top players, only the role players... And as you can see, Lebron's role players are nowhere near the crappy, NBDL-quality like Jordan's role players all were.
Ive always maintained that James teammates were better than given.credit for. But take away Jordan from the Bulls and remove James from the Heat, and the Bulls are winning





Bird's Celtics were old - the entire team - McHale and Parish got old the same time Bird did.
They got that old over the course of an off season? They went from winning 57 games, and making it to the ECF. To being swept the following year after winning 42 games in an expansion year. Come on.


So again, you have no argument here - you are just fishing in the hopes that you can discredit Jordan's GOAT stats and accomplishments, so maybe Lebron can get a sniff of Jordan's ass in the goat conversation... give it up boss... it's a futile effort.
.
Lol. Im not a LeBron James fan. Im on record as saying Jordan has no weakness when basketball is concerned. James is a front runner, and a crybaby. I disagree with your assesment of the Bulls.

[3ball]

.
How could scottie win a FMVP?... jordan was always saving pippen... here's a few examples...

1) Jordan had to backpack it alone when Pippen came down with the migraine headache in 1990 Game 7 ECF - Pippen later admitted it was all due to the pressure.

2) Jordan had to backpack it alone again in the 1998 Finals, scoring 38% of his team's points (a record), because Pippen could only average 15ppg on 41% and got hurt again.

3) Pippen getting punked in Game 7 of the ECF by bully Xavier McDaniel - and Jordan steps in to stand up to Xavier and prevent momentum from shifting... video:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/1003c3250b6155c9a50993f66a829df1.gif


Not that we need these specific examples, since Jordan's highest ever Win Shares, WS/48, and PER definitively prove that his production was the highest ever and he contributed more to his team's wins than anyone ever.
.

[97 bulls]

.
How could scottie win a FMVP?... jordan was always saving pippen... here's a few examples...

1) Jordan had to backpack it alone when Pippen came down with the migraine headache in 1990 Game 7 ECF - Pippen later admitted it was all due to the pressure.

2) Jordan had to backpack it alone again in the 1998 Finals, scoring 38% of his team's points (a record), because Pippen could only average 15ppg on 41% and got hurt again.

3) Pippen getting punked in Game 7 of the ECF by bully Xavier McDaniel - and Jordan steps in to stand up to Xavier and prevent momentum from shifting... video:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/1003c3250b6155c9a50993f66a829df1.gif


Not that we need these specific examples, since Jordan's highest ever Win Shares, WS/48, and PER definitively prove that his production was the highest ever and he contributed more to his team's wins than anyone ever.
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This isn't MMA, this is basketball. Pippen played an integral role in the Bulls Championship runs. And Jordan never won without Pippen. They needed each other.

[Roundball_Rock]

would Jordan still be the GOAT?

Or if Jordan had gone 6/7 in the finals...?

Yes. Jordan's legacy would not be impacted one iota in either scenario. Pippen's, though, would be boosted slightly, i.e. he would be 3-4 spots higher on the all-time list. 6/6 versus 6/7 is essentially the same. Is Jordan any worse a player if the Bulls made it past Detroit in 90' and lost in the Finals versus losing in 7 games in the ECF? FMVP is vastly overrated. Jordan with 5 in 6 Finals is still the same player.

The thing you have to look at is what the case for Jordan is. His case is not affected by the scenarios you present. Examples of players who are more sensitive to such scenarios are, say, Wilt with 1 ring instead of 2 (the big knock against Wilt by his detractors are that he did not win enough; the retort from his proponents is he won twice and came close other times. If he had 1 ring that case is substantially weaker than with Wilt being a multiple champion) or maybe Bird if Bird had 1 FMVP during 3 titles versus having 2 FMVP's in 3 title seasons. The case for Jordan is based on individual dominance, skill set, clutchness and a high degree of winning. Whether he has 6 rings in 6 Finals with 2 ECF losses is fundamentally the same as if he has 6 rings in 7 Finals with 1 ECF loss. Jerry Rice won 1 SBMVP over Montana and no one ever mentions that when discussing Montana as the GOAT QB because it does not impact Montana's record and who he was.


How could scottie win a FMVP?

Finals of 21/9/7, 21/8/8, 21/9/8 and 20/8/4 along with defensive dominance and leadership. It took Jordan going on God mode to prevent Pippen from winning a FMVP, along with likely a 98' Finals injury (Pippen, having arguably the GOAT defensive series of a perimeter player, was the FMVP front runner when the Bulls led 3-1 and then his back gave out). Pippen on most title teams with a teammate other than MJ would have won a FMVP or two given his level of play in the Finals.