Is CP3 The Most Overrated Player?

[aj1987]

ESPN is about rank his has the #2 player in the league. Dude is constantly ranked in the top 3 or 5, but never does anything to deserve that rank. Got shit on by the Thunder last year with an really good team. Managed only 56 wins in '13 and '14 with a good team.

[Heavincent]

He's not even the best player on his team.

[TMacYaoRockets]

Allen Iverson is the most overrated player ever. And maybe Dirk.

[navy]

ESPN is about rank his has the #2 player in the league. Dude is constantly ranked in the top 3 or 5, but never does anything to deserve that rank. Got shit on by the Thunder last year with an really good team. Managed only 56 wins in '13 and '14 with a good team.
:biggums:

The Thunder are a really good team.

[JohnMax]

NBA.com 2014-15 GM Survey (http://www.nba.com/news/features/john_schuhmann/nba-com-2014-15-gm-survey/)

Who is the best point guard in the NBA?
1. Chris Paul, L.A. Clippers -- 71.4%
2. Russell Westbrook, Oklahoma City -- 10.7%
3. Tony Parker, San Antonio -- 7.1%
Last year: Chris Paul -- 70.0%

[aj1987]

:biggums:

The Thunder are a really good team.
Yes, they are, but the Clippers were deeper and according to most people here, CP3 is a better PG than WB. They even had a better coach.

[Milbuck]

http://i.imgur.com/wBGRRHX.jpg

Assuming, of course, that we're ignoring the obvious choice that is James Harden.

[oarabbus]

http://i.imgur.com/wBGRRHX.jpg

Assuming, of course, that we're ignoring the obvious choice that is James Harden.


CP3 is to Parker like Wilt is to Russell.

[navy]

Yes, they are, but the Clippers were deeper and according to most people here, CP3 is a better PG than WB. They even had a better coach.
Yeah and the Thunder had Kevin Durant who put up 33/10/5....

lol, Chris Paul had one game where he might have cost them the series, which was a completely crazy game that could have gone either way, refs and all but still. Not like loosing was a huge shock to a team with HCA and the reigning MVP.

[Heavincent]

:biggums:

If Chris Paul is as good as people say he is, I expect a little more than a second round exit.

Chris Paul is obviously great, arguably the best PG in the league, but people get carried away sometimes. People tried to say he was as good or even better than Kobe a few years ago, and now they're trying to put him ahead of Durant, which is absurd. That's why some people think he's overrated. He was never a top tier superstar. There were always a few guys I'd rather start my team with. A few years ago it was Kobe/Bran/Wade, and now it's Bran/KD/Davis/Blake. I personally prefer Westbrook and Curry too, but I know people will freak the **** out if I put them there, so I'll refrain.

[navy]

So what has blake done to be put above CP3?
Or Davis?
Or Curry?

I mean your here talking about 2nd round exits....

Nobody put him above Durant, Durant just got injured.

[knicksman]

Westbrook whos another iverson. Teams perform better w/o them yet are treated like superstars

[aj1987]

Yeah and the Thunder had Kevin Durant who put up 33/10/5....

lol, Chris Paul had one game where he might have cost them the series, which was a completely crazy game that could have gone either way, refs and all but still. Not like loosing was a huge shock to a team with HCA and the reigning MVP.
The Clippers had 2 players in the top 10 in MVP voting at #3 and #6. 6th MOY, 2 All-Stars (one guy made the All-NBA First team and the other made the Second team), a championship coach, and the rebounding champ. Still managed to win only 56 games.

[Milbuck]

If Chris Paul is as good as people say he is, I expect a little more than a second round exit.

Chris Paul is obviously great, arguably the best PG in the league, but people get carried away sometimes. People tried to say he was as good or even better than Kobe a few years ago, and now they're trying to put him ahead of Durant, which is absurd. That's why some people think he's overrated. He was never a top tier superstar. There were always a few guys I'd rather start my team with. A few years ago it was Kobe/Bran/Wade, and now it's Bran/KD/Davis/Blake. I personally prefer Westbrook and Curry too, but I know people will freak the **** out if I put them there, so I'll refrain.
Why? They both have a solid case..Westbrook outplayed CP3 in the playoffs. And through the eye test as well as various impact and shooting efficiency metrics, Curry is ****ing unreal. His defense is holding him back...but Curry imo is one of the most dynamic offensive PGs in history.

[navy]

The Clippers had 2 players in the top 10. 6th MOY, 2 All-Stars (one guy made the All-NBA First team and the other made the Second team), a championship coach, and the rebounding champ. Still managed to win only 56 games.

lol, only 56 games.

Since we are counting wins they actually won 57. They had injuries and a first year coach. 57 wins isnt good in the West? Get out of here with that shit.

[Milbuck]

CP3 is to Parker like Wilt is to Russell.
I've joked about it before, but Russell was an insanely high impact player and his team would most likely have collapsed without him. Can't say the same about Parker. Watching the playoffs this past year, I'm not sold on his impact being on the same level of CP3/Westbrook/Curry in that top-tier.

[aj1987]

lol, only 56 games.

Since we are counting wins they actually won 57. They had injuries and a first year coach. 57 wins isnt good? Get out here with that shit.
Not when you have a "top 3" player in CP3, 24/10/4 BG, a 10/14 defensive centre in DJ, the 6th MOY, etc. The Thunder were basically worse at EVERY spot and they managed to win 59 games.

[navy]

I do actually think Westbrook is better than Cp3, so there is that...

However, it's pretty amazing how you guys straight up change your criteria for certain players. How can you sit here and talk about records and playoffs and then put Davis, Curry and Blake ahead of CP3. He's had way more success then they have. Hell, he plays on blakes team and let's be honest, CP3 was the best player and most important during the playoffs.

[navy]

Not when you have a "top 3" player in CP3, 24/10/4 BG, a 10/14 defensive centre in DJ, the 6th MOY, etc. The Thunder were basically worse at EVERY spot and they managed to win 59 games.

http://cdn1.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/32638203/20140506_jla_aa4_728.jpg.0_cinema_1050.0.jpg

Only CP3 could be critiqued for 57 wins in a tough conference. And then get called overrated for it.

[oarabbus]

I've joked about it before, but Russell was an insanely high impact player and his team would most likely have collapsed without him. Can't say the same about Parker. Watching the playoffs this past year, I'm not sold on his impact being on the same level of CP3/Westbrook/Curry in that top-tier.

No doubt this past season, Ginobili was the difference maker at guard. But think back to the finals before that, Parker was absolutely huge. But I guess Pop did show the Spurs are deep enough to roll without Parker.

[Heavincent]

Why? They both have a solid case..Westbrook outplayed CP3 in the playoffs. And through the eye test as well as various impact and shooting efficiency metrics, Curry is ****ing unreal. His defense is holding him back...but Curry imo is one of the most dynamic offensive PGs in history.

I don't know why. It's another reason why I feel he's just a bit overrated. He's NOT the undisputed best PG.

And yeah, Curry is basketball porn.

[oarabbus]

Only CP3 could be critiqued for 57 wins in a tough conference. And then get called overrated for it.


That's not necessarily true. He's being called overrated when putting his entire career into context... which is fair.

[navy]

That's not necessarily true. He's being called overrated when putting his entire career into context... which is fair.

Not really, because that was literally a reason aj just cited.

He isnt overrated, people just get mad when he's called the best pg or a top 5 or higher player or the best pg in the game. The truth is that is just the way things are. His complete pg set has rarely been seen and even 70% of gms will continue to call him the best pg in anonymous surveys with nothing to gain. He really is just that good. Not the best player in the nba, but no shame in where he is usually ranked, especially hen you look at his package of pg skills.

If you want to say certain players are better than him fine, but put forth some actual reasoning not some superficial stuff like second round exits when other players havent even made the playoffs. My biggest pet peeve.

I never thought he was better than Lebron, Wade, Kobe, Durant etc. But that doesnt mean he is somehow overrated because of it. Or not reaching the levels of success they have.

[Graviton]

I bash CP3 at times for his passiveness but who else would you have at #2 with Durant injured? Only Westbrook has a case but his consistency in the regular season is questionable, and he is still young and developing. Davis hasn't done jack shit yet and is all hype and "potential" talk. Curry is the overrated one to me due to his one-dimensional playstyle. He relies on 3s too much, and if his jumper isn't falling he is done. That's not a style that wins you playoff games. I say this as someone from the Bay that gets all the Golden State games for free and watches almost all of them. He is fool's gold and just has people blinded by his flashy plays.


CP3 is a consistent veteran that has the media behind him, and for a good reason. Even after his injuries and nearing 30 he is still the best PG in the league. Only "overrated" part about him are his fans that say "its not even close", he isn't the godlike 2008 Paul no more, that's the undisputed best PG of this era. But even taking that into account, only Westbrook is actually at his level currently, they are the only 2 PGs that can make a difference even if their shot isn't falling. Paul with his playmaking, leadership and defensive impact in the passing lanes and Westbrook with his rebounding, hustle and breakdowns of opposing defenses.

[Milbuck]

Not really, because that was literally a reason aj just cited.

He isnt overrated, people just get mad when he's called the best pg or a top 5 or higher player or the best pg in the game. The truth is that is just the way things are. His complete pg set has rarely been seen and even 70% of gms will continue to call him the best pg in anonymous surveys with nothing to gain. He really is just that good. Not the best player in the nba, but no shame in where he is usually ranked, especially hen you look at his package of pg skills.

If you want to say certain players are better than him fine, but put forth some actual reasoning not some superficial stuff like second round exits when other players havent even made the playoffs. My biggest pet peeve.

I never thought he was better than Lebron, Wade, Kobe, Durant etc. But that doesnt mean he is somehow overrated because of it. Or not reaching the levels of success they have.
He's rated #2 though. And I'm not so sure he's top 5, let alone #2..

Is he better than Kevin Love?

Love is clowned on regularly for not making the playoffs...but are we really gonna sleep on how offensively inept his 2nd option Rubio was at every facet of offense aside from passing? Or how injury prone Pekovic was and abysmal defensively when he was healthy? How vastly less talented his team was compared to other West playoff teams? And he still put up monster stats and dragged them to 40 wins. Is current CP3 capable of doing that?

What exactly would Kevin Love do if you replaced him for CP3 on the Clippers, and swapped in a Blake-level PG (top 3 PG) for Blake...say, Curry?

Steph Curry / Darren Collison
JJ Redick / Jamal Crawford
Matt Barnes / Danny Granger
Kevin Love / Hedo Turkoglu
Deandre Jordan / Glen Davis

Coached by Doc Rivers..

[T_L_P]

CP3 is/was a great individual player in the Playoffs (basically a 20/11 guy with great efficiency and defense).

Problem is, when youre a true PG, you need to make your teammates better. And he's better at doing that in the regular season than he is the postseason.

Still, his regular season contributions, particularly in New Orleans, are only behind LeBron's as far as active players (better than Kobe, Duncan, Dirk, KG, Durant).

[Heavincent]

Curry is the overrated one to me due to his one-dimensional playstyle. He relies on 3s too much, and if his jumper isn't falling he is done.

You know what the problem with this argument is? Curry hardly ever goes cold. He's actually pretty damn efficient...more efficient than Westbrook. Even when he does have an off shooting night, defenses will always be scared shitless of him, so the threat is always there.

[aj1987]

Not really, because that was literally a reason aj just cited.
When CP3 was out for 18 games, BG carried the clippers to a 12-6 record averaging 28/8/4. Without the "best" player on the Clippers. I'm not saying that CP3 is a bad player. Dude is a GREAT player, but he's definitely not top 5.


I Curry is the overrated one to me due to his one-dimensional playstyle. He relies on 3s too much, and if his jumper isn't falling he is done. That's not a style that wins you playoff games.
Curry takes 30% of his shots from the midrange and make ~50% of them. He's pretty decent at the rim as well (60%). Heck, Dude also manages 9 assists and 4 rebounds a game.

[navy]

He's rated #2 though. And I'm not so sure he's top 5, let alone # freaking 2..

Is he better than Kevin Love?

Love is clowned on regularly for not making the playoffs...but are we really gonna sleep on how offensively inept his 2nd option Rubio was at every facet of offense aside from passing? Or how injury prone Pekovic was and abysmal defensively when he was healthy?

What exactly would Kevin Love do if you replaced him for CP3 on the Clippers, and swapped in a Blake-level PG (top 3 PG) for Blake...say, Curry?

Steph Curry / Darren Collison
JJ Redick / Jamal Crawford
Matt Barnes / Danny Granger
Kevin Love / Hedo Turkoglu
Deandre Jordan / Glen Davis

Coached by Doc Rivers..

Kevin Love has never made the playoffs in his entire career. And yet we are here basing CP3 for first or second round exits and 57 wins. All im saying is be consistent.

Curry is the same. His success consist of a second round exit two yeas, and a first round exit to....CP3.

Put them above CP3, sure. But, I dont see why anyone would have a problem with CP3 being above them or even 2nd on this list. It's not like they have the success, crazy stat advantage, or defensive impact to say that they are really warranted in being ranked above him.

Only one I would change is Westbrook at 3 (2). But that is definitely something we can all see for ourselves at the start of the season.

[oarabbus]

I bash CP3 at times for his passiveness but who else would you have at #2 with Durant injured? Only Westbrook has a case but his consistency in the regular season is questionable, and he is still young and developing. Davis hasn't done jack shit yet and is all hype and "potential" talk. Curry is the overrated one to me due to his one-dimensional playstyle. He relies on 3s too much, and if his jumper isn't falling he is done. That's not a style that wins you playoff games. I say this as someone from the Bay that gets all the Golden State games for free and watches almost all of them. He is fool's gold and just has people blinded by his flashy plays.


CP3 is a consistent veteran that has the media behind him, and for a good reason. Even after his injuries and nearing 30 he is still the best PG in the league. Only "overrated" part about him are his fans that say "its not even close", he isn't the godlike 2008 Paul no more, that's the undisputed best PG of this era. But even taking that into account, only Westbrook is actually at his level currently, they are the only 2 PGs that can make a difference even if their shot isn't falling. Paul with his playmaking, leadership and defensive impact in the passing lanes and Westbrook with his rebounding, hustle and breakdowns of opposing defenses.

But Lillard doe, doesn't suffer from any of those problems :rolleyes:

Let's not forget either that we took them to 7 without a key piece of our team. And Curry had a pretty good series... 23/8 on 44%. He can still pass if his jumper isn't falling.

[navy]

When CP3 was out for 18 games, BG carried the clippers to a 12-6 record averaging 28/8/4. Without the "best" player on the Clippers. I'm not saying that CP3 is a bad player. Dude is a GREAT player, but he's definitely not top 5.

12-6 is good. But now imagine if CP3 had played those games, they would have been better. Especially initailly when they were terrible. Would they get to 60? Is that the number you are looking for and not 57? Sure maybe.

The only people above CP3 for sure are Lebron and Durant. I said Id put Westbrook at 3, but after that...


Which player has had more success than 2nd round exit and deserves to be ranked above CP3?

[Milbuck]

Kevin Love has never made the playoffs in his entire career. And yet we are here basing CP3 for first or second round exits and 57 wins. All im saying is be consistent.

Curry is the same. His sucess consistent of a second round exit two yeas, and a first round exit to....CP3.

Put them above CP3, sure. But, I dont see why anyone would have a problem with CP3 being above them or even 2nd on this list. It's not like they have the success, crazy stat advantage, or defensive impact to say that they are really warranted in being ranked above him.

Only one I would change is Westbrook at 3 (2). But that is definitely something we can all see for ourselves at the start of the season.
Consistency in arguments is worthless if we're not going to factor in context whatsoever.

Honestly, I couldn't see anyone besides Lebron and KD making the playoffs with that TWolves squad last season, with absolute certainty. Whereas in the scenario I posed where Love has the talent and coaching around him that CP3 has..I could honestly see them taking out OKC and pushing SA to the absolute limit. In fact I would bet on it.

Not everyone is as fortunate as CP3..how many superstars are in as good a situation as him? Durant and Westbrook?..though coaching is vastly inferior and depth is an issue. Lebron with his new team maybe, but that just happened so we can't really judge that situation. Aside from that I'm struggling to think of stars on rosters that fit their talents as well as the Clippers roster fits CP3, with a coach that can maximize their ability the way Doc does current CP3.

He's got arguably the most stacked team in the league with a top 5 coach, and it's not like they just threw the team together. It's not only loaded with talent, but it's pretty damn well-constructed and they have good chemistry. With the way the team was going in the WCSF, they absolutely should have beaten OKC.

[Graviton]

You know what the problem with this argument is? Curry hardly ever goes cold. He's actually pretty damn efficient...more efficient than Westbrook. Even when he does have an off shooting night, defenses will always be scared shitless of him, so the threat is always there.
Nobody is scared shitless of someone jacking up 3s in the playoffs. That's what they want you to do. See Durant/Westbrook vs Grizzlies in the earlier games getting shit on when they were bricking 3s compared to later on when they actually started attacking the paint and dominated.

And as for your other point, here is what happened to "never goes cold" Curry in the playoffs...

http://i58.tinypic.com/rr2s9g.jpg



And Curry may be more efficient in the regular season when he can jack up 3s against garbage defenses but in the playoffs when your options are taken away things are different...

http://i61.tinypic.com/33dh63s.jpg



You notice who are the top 2, miles ahead of the rest?

[navy]

Consistency in arguments is worthless if we're not going to factor in context whatsoever.

Honestly, I couldn't see anyone besides Lebron and KD making the playoffs with that TWolves squad last season, with absolute certainty.

Not everyone is as fortunate as CP3..how many superstars are in as good a situation as him? Durant and Westbrook?..though coaching is vastly inferior and depth is an issue. Lebron with his new team maybe, but that just happened so we can't really judge that situation. Aside from that I'm struggling to think of stars on rosters that fit their talents as well as the Clippers roster fits CP3, with a coach that can maximize their ability the way Doc does current CP3.

He's got arguably the most stacked team in the league with a top 5 coach, and it's not like they just threw the team together. It's not only loaded with talent, but it's pretty damn well-constructed and they have good chemistry. With the way the team was going in the WCSF, they absolutely should have beaten OKC.

That Timberwolves team wasnt actually that bad. The reason they didnt make the playoffs is the same reason the Knicks didnt make it. Love(Melo) was atrocious in close games. Im talking some of the worst all time records. And it was a huge story in the Wolves circle. It's because Love lacks a strong offensive arsenal that is reliable in late games and Rubio is of course a 37% shooter or something like that. But if you had a more reliable offensive threat to replace love? They would have made it.

The Clippers are only as stacked as how much value you take in names. They still need CP3 at least 20/10 to have any chance in the playoffs. How stacked can they be? If they were really stacked Cp3 could go like 14/7 have a twenty point outburst and win. Hardly stacked, they got niche role players who come and go. But hell, Cp3 put up alright stats and the team lost because he didnt do enough. Definitely stacked. I mean beating OKC with the MVP and Westbrook is sure fire thing right? Hell they even asked CP3 to guard Durant. Stacked. :oldlol:

[Milbuck]

Nobody is scared shitless of someone jacking up 3s in the playoffs. That's what they want you to do. See Durant/Westbrook vs Grizzlies in the earlier games getting shit on when they were bricking 3s compared to later on when they actually started attacking the paint and dominated.

And as for your other point, here is what happened to "never goes cold" Curry in the playoffs...
http://i58.tinypic.com/rr2s9g.jpg

You just posted stats that show Curry shot 39% from 3 for the series while apparently "going cold"...

And Durant is an elite shooter and Westbrook is solid...but let's not get things mixed up here. Curry is the best shooter ever, and one of the most ridiculous shotmakers ever from all areas of the court. He's on a different level in that respect, the shots he takes are shots that literally no one else in the NBA should be taking, and he makes them at a high level. Teams may not be scared shitless of him, but we're fooling ourselves if we're gonna say that teams aren't actively concerned about Curry's ability from range at all times.

[Graviton]

But Lillard doe, doesn't suffer from any of those problems :rolleyes:

Let's not forget either that we took them to 7 without a key piece of our team. And Curry had a pretty good series... 23/8 on 44%. He can still pass if his jumper isn't falling.
Every Top 10 PG can pass if their jumper isn't falling. Difference is he can't do much else. I bash Paul but I realize Curry is nowhere close to him as a complete player. This Curry wagon needs to stop, I get it he is exciting to watch but he ain't on Paul/Westbrook level.

[Warfan]

CP3 and WB are certainly better than Steph, and I don't have much of a problem at all with cp3 being ranked the 3rd best player in the league.

[oarabbus]

CP3 and WB are certainly better than Steph, this coming from diehard dubs fan.

Well, yeah. You can't say Steph is better than either of those two because of the other side of the ball. Curry will never be a great defender, period, or compare to WB/CP3 on defense. But offensively, he's as good or better.

[Graviton]

You just posted stats that show Curry shot 39% from 3 for the series while apparently "going cold"...

And Durant is an elite shooter and Westbrook is solid...but let's not get things mixed up here. Curry is the best shooter ever, and one of the most ridiculous shotmakers ever from all areas of the court. Teams may not be scared shitless of him, but we're fooling ourselves if we're gonna say that teams aren't actively concerned about Curry's ability from range at all times.
"Going cold" implies overall, not just 3. And considering he shot below his season averages in most of the games that can be argued as going cold.

[aj1987]

12-6 is good. But now imagine if CP3 had played those games, they would have been better. Especially initailly when they were terrible. Would they get to 60? Is that the number you are looking for and not 57? Sure maybe.

The only people above CP3 for sure are Lebron and Durant. I said Id put Westbrook at 3, but after that...


Which player has had more success than 2nd round exit and deserves to be ranked above CP3?
WITHOUT CP3, the Clippers would've won 54 games. 3 games less. WITHOUT the 3rd BEST player in the league. :oldlol:

The league must indeed be weak as **** when the 3rd best player in the league can add only 3 wins to a team.

[Milbuck]

That Timberwolves team wasnt actually that bad. The reason they didnt make the playoffs is the same reason the Knicks didnt make it. Love was atrocious in close games. Im talking some of the worst all time records. And it was a huge story in the Wolves circle. It's because Love lacks a strong offensive arsenal that is reliable in late games and Rubio is of course a 37% shooter or something like that. But if you had a more reliable offensive threat to replace love? They would have made it.

The Clippers are only as stacked as how much value you take in names. They still need CP3 at least 20/10 to have any chance in the playoffs. How stacked can they be? If they really stacked Cp3 could go like 14/7 have a twenty point outburst and win. Hardly stacked, they got niche role players who come and go.
Yes it actually was. If we're talking about them in a vacuum...yeah, they're decent. But we're talking about them in a conference with cores of Durant/Westbrook/Ibaka, CP3/Blake/DJ, Duncan/Parker/Kawhi/Ginobili/Pop, Aldridge/Lillard/Batum, Curry/Iggy/Thompson/Bogut/Lee, Harden/Howard/Parsons, Zbo/MGasol/Conley, Dirk/Ellis/Carlisle, etc

There is literally no logical or fair reason to knock Kevin Love for missing the playoffs last year. None whatsoever. His PG Rubio literally struggled to score in double digits and to crack 40% shooting...his SG Kevin Martin is one of the lowest impact scorers in the game and also missed roughly 15 games..his starting center missed nearly 30 games and was abysmal defensively when he was on the court (again, poor roster construction), and then after that he was surrounded by such all-stars like JJ Barea, Corey Brewer, Chase Budinger, Ronny Turiaf, Dante Cunningham, LRMM, etc. He was already at a massive disadvantage talent-wise relative to the competition in his conference, and then you factor in that the 2nd scoring option on his team missed nearly 30 games...he was ****ed no matter what way we look at it. Was he underwhelming in late game scenarios? Yeah. But not everyone is prime Michael freaking Jordan...how much of a burden did you really expect him to carry? The guy was already carrying the team at 26/13/4/1/1 on 59% TS 26.9 PER with a huge on/off...

And Blake, Jordan, Crawford are not just names. Those are high quality players. We're talking arguably the best PF in the game, a DPOY caliber center, and a 6MOY. Anything else is a bonus when you have that on your team. And of course the Clippers need CP3 to play well to have a chance in the playoffs...they're not the Dream Team. But that doesn't negate the fact that top to bottom they have a top 3, if not THE top, team in terms of pure talent. And then you factor in good chemistry, elite coaching, etc....and it's not even close compared to what Love was dealing with. Not even remotely close whatsoever.

[navy]

WITHOUT CP3, the Clippers would've won 54 games. 3 games less. WITHOUT the 3rd BEST player in the league. :oldlol:

The league must indeed be weak as **** when the 3rd best player in the league can add only 3 wins to a team.

Yes because an 18 game stretch is reliable to extrapolate to 81 games. Only 3 games were added by CP3. Flawless logic.

Like I said Durant, Lebron, Westbrook,

Which player has had more success than 2nd round exit and deserves to be ranked above CP3?

[knicksman]

Pre injury cp3 is even better than bran. Luckily for bran cp3 got injured while him taking the easy way out. or else his overrated ass wouldve been exposed a long time ago

[Graviton]

Yes because an 18 game stretch is reliable to extrapolate to 81 games. Only 3 games were added by CP3. Flawless logic.

Like I said Durant, Lebron, Westbrook,

Which player has had more success than 2nd round exit and deserves to be ranked above CP3?
Tony Parker.

rofl

[Milbuck]

Tony Parker.

rofl
:coleman:

edit: lol white text

[aj1987]

Yes because an 18 game stretch is reliable to extrapolate to 81 games. Only 3 games were added by CP3. Flawless logic.

Like I said Durant, Lebron, Westbrook,

Which player has had more success than 2nd round exit and deserves to be ranked above CP3?
With similarly built teams (the Clips are a very good fit for CP3), Love, AD, Melo, and BG.

Replace CP3 with another good PG and the Clippers will win 55+ games again.
Give AD, Love, and Melo teams which are as good and deep as the Clippers, they'll also win 55+ games without a doubt.

18 games in basically a quarter of the season. Look at it think way. WITHOUT CP3, the best player on the clippers and the 2nd best player in the league, they managed to lose only 0.6 games more than WITH him. Lets round it to a game. The Clips were basically a game worst without CP3 over an 18 game stretch.

[Young X]

WITHOUT CP3, the Clippers would've won 54 games. 3 games less. WITHOUT the 3rd BEST player in the league. :oldlol:

The league must indeed be weak as **** when the 3rd best player in the league can add only 3 wins to a team.Weak schedule. Those were all wins against below .500 type teams, they lost to every good team they faced. As soon as Paul came back they went on a 11 game win streak.

And in terms of them "only" winning 57 games, CP missed 20 games, Redick missed like 40 games, Crawford missed a couple of weeks also. That's at least -5 wins right there.

[tgan3]

Clippers would have won the thunder without the refs help last year. I watched the series, it is silly how many calls thunder gets while clippers got none. E.g Westbrook got tripped by himself with no one around him and is awarded a foul. Last few seconds, CP3 with the ball clearly got foul thus losing the possession but no foul called. These are just but a few of the calls that shifted the whole momentum of the series.

Anyway, it won't make a difference as they will get dismantled by the Spurs if they do advance the next round last year.

[knicksman]

Cp3 vs westbrook is like nash vs ai or bran vs magic. Score first pgs vs pure pgs. Idiots think westbrook is better coz of stats but results speak otherwise..

[aj1987]

Weak schedule. Those were all wins against below .500 type teams, they lost to every good team they faced. As soon as Paul came back they went on a 11 game win streak.
Of course they were going to. BG was beasting. Didn't he average something like 26/9/5 on 53% from Jan? As I said, replace CP3 with another good PG and the Clips are going to win 55+.


And in terms of them "only" winning 57 games, CP missed 20 games, Redick missed like 40 games, Crawford missed a couple of weeks also. That's at least -5 wins right there.
Lets see how many games they win this year. I do expect you CP3 stans to come up with 90457309 excuses for his shortcomings though.

[navy]

Yes it actually was. If we're talking about them in a vacuum...yeah, they're decent. But we're talking about them in a conference with cores of Durant/Westbrook/Ibaka, CP3/Blake/DJ, Duncan/Parker/Kawhi/Ginobili/Pop, Aldridge/Lillard/Batum, Curry/Iggy/Thompson/Bogut/Lee, Harden/Howard/Parsons,

There is literally no logical or fair reason to knock Kevin Love for missing the playoffs last year. None whatsoever. His PG Rubio literally struggled to score in double digits and to crack 40% shooting...his SG Kevin Martin is one of the lowest impact scorers in the game and also missed roughly 15 games..his starting center missed nearly 30 games and was abysmal defensively when he was on the court (again, poor roster construction), and then after that he was surrounded by such all-stars like JJ Barea, Corey Brewer, Chase Budinger, Ronny Turiaf, Dante Cunningham, LRMM, etc. He was already at a massive disadvantage talent-wise relative to the competition in his conference, and then you factor in that the 2nd scoring option on his team missed nearly 30 games...he was ****ed no matter what way we look at it. Was he underwhelming in late game scenarios? Yeah. But not everyone is prime Michael freaking Jordan...how much of a burden did you really expect him to carry? The guy was already carrying the team at 26/13/4/1/1 on 59% TS 26.9 PER with a huge on/off...

And Blake, Jordan, Crawford are not just names. Those are high quality players. We're talking arguably the best PF in the game, a DPOY caliber center, and a 6MOY. Anything else is a bonus when you have that on your team. And of course the Clippers need CP3 to play well to have a chance in the playoffs...they're not the Dream Team. But that doesn't negate the fact that top to bottom they have a top 3, if not THE top, team in terms of pure talent. And then you factor in good chemistry, elite coaching, etc....and it's not even close compared to what Love was dealing with. Not even remotely close whatsoever.

I just gave a reason. The Timberwolves were atrocious in close games and a lot of it was direct Love's fault. Dude couldnt score in fourth quarters or defend in any quarters. His non diverse scoring skillset/arsenal is why he will never be a first option. http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2014/01/08/wolves-better-than-their-record-says/

To claim that squad just wasnt good enough to make the playoffs is wrong. Love was not doing his full part. He was terrible in those games and it sucked the life out of the team. That isnt an excusable offense where you can brush it off and blame the squad 100%. Cp3 lost 1 close game to the Thunder in the playoffs? Kevin Love won zero close games in the regular season. :roll:

That's what I mean by names. Blake, DeAndre and Jamal all underpreformed vs OKC, did they not? Yeah, Cp3 was not perfect. Certainly not his finest moments but your not asking CP3 to guard Durant on a stacked squad. It just isnt happening.

Its not like they lost to some random scrubs. They got beat by Durant and Westbrook.

Put Durant and Westbrook above Cp3, I have no problem. Hell even argue Blake, I guess. But Kevin I cant make the playoffs Love, vs CP3 cant get past the 2nd round? Man, it's not a tough choice.

[oarabbus]

Cp3 vs westbrook is like nash vs ai or bran vs magic. Score first pgs vs pure pgs. Idiots think westbrook is better coz of stats but results speak otherwise..


Yeah seriously, CP3's WCF appearances, WCF victory, and Finals appearance speak for themselves :coleman:

[aj1987]

I just gave a reason. The Timberwolves were atrocious in close games and a lot of it was direct Love's fault. Dude couldnt score in fourth quarters or defend in any quarters. His non diverse scoring skillset/arsenal is why he will never be a first option. http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2014/01/08/wolves-better-than-their-record-says/
I haven't read the link yet, but I saw the game. He did choke his FT's in a game or two, but you can't really blame him for the lack of scoring. Who do you think defenses are going to focus more on? Rubio? Pekovic? That team was full of scrubs who couldn't score. Love was basically the only offensive threat, who could score at will. Not only that, he was also a pretty good passer. So, when your second best player is Rubio during the clutch, you're ****ed.

Stop pretending like Love had anyone on BG's level. BG, DJ, JC, etc. >>>>>> Love's teammates.

[knicksman]

Yeah seriously, CP3's WCF appearances, WCF victory, and Finals appearance speak for themselves :coleman:
Yeah westbrook being carried by durant and making his team worse is better. Lol that iq of yours is astounding

[navy]

With similarly built teams (the Clips are a very good fit for CP3), Love, AD, Melo, and BG.

Replace CP3 with another good PG and the Clippers will win 55+ games again.
Give AD, Love, and Melo teams which are as good and deep as the Clippers, they'll also win 55+ games without a doubt.

18 games in basically a quarter of the season. Look at it think way. WITHOUT CP3, the best player on the clippers and the 2nd best player in the league, they managed to lose only 0.6 games more than WITH him. Lets round it to a game. The Clips were basically a game worst without CP3 over an 18 game stretch.

Every team is a good fit for CP3. What exactly do the Clippers give CP3 that he wouldnt have on another team? Is someone creating for him, giving him shots, or taking over all his defensive assignments? No. Like I said he is still required to produce at a high level if he wants to advance.

Sure. I mean they were definitely showing how many games they could win last year with their seats to the playoffs on the couch.

1/4 =1?

[Graviton]

Yeah westbrook being carried by durant and making his team worse is better. Lol that iq of yours is astounding
So what did Durant do without Westbrook in the 1st round when Russ got injured? Surely since he "carried" Westbrook beating Memphis shoulda been easy right?

[navy]

I haven't read the link yet, but I saw the game. He did choke his FT's in a game or two, but you can't really blame him for the lack of scoring. Who do you think defenses are going to focus more on? Rubio? Pekovic? That team was full of scrubs who couldn't score. Love was basically the only offensive threat, who could score at will. Not only that, he was also a pretty good passer. So, when your second best player is Rubio during the clutch, you're ****ed.

Stop pretending like Love had anyone on BG's level. BG, DJ, JC, etc. >>>>>> Love's teammates.

1 game is forgivable. Well not for Cp3.

An entire season of atrocious fourth quarter performances? :biggums:

Love was at 35ish % in fourth quarters or something terrible. Stop trying to blame the team. He was directly at fault for alot of it. Free throws be damned.

That was a playoff capable team.

[navy]

Kevin Love
http://www.hamidsaify.com/blog/kevin-love-is-not-a-superstar

Highlights.


Check out Kevin Love's quarter/quarter stats:

1st: 8.3 points, 4.8 rebounds, 46.5% FG, 41.6% 3 Point

2nd: 5.2 points, 2.4 rebounds, 46.6% FG, 38.8% 3 Point

3rd: 8.4 points, 4 rebounds, 48.4% FG, 37.2% 3 Point

4th: 4.4 points, 2.2 rebounds, 38.4% FG, 30% 3 Point

It's not the 4th quarter dips in points & rebounds that's as big of deal. Kevin only plays about 7 mins in the 4th. It's the field goal & three point percentages. That's a 15.7% lower FG percentage in the 4th. And, a 18.9% lower three point percentages. And, that...is....not....good.

Need more? In games with a margin of 1-5 points, Kevin Love has his lowest field goal percentage (43.3%) as compared with games with margin of 6-10, 11-15, and so on.

So that's just the 4th quarter. Let's get deep into the 4th.

In the 20 games that Kevin Love has played with a less than 5 point margin & 5 minutes left, he has a FG % of 34.3%. His 3PT % is 36.8%
In the 19 games that Kevin Love has played with less than a 5 point margin & 3 minutes left, he has a FG % of 32%. His 3PT % is 26.7%
Check the rest of his clutch stats yourself. They. Are. All. Bad. That's not a superstar. He's a great second piece, but unless you have a playmaker at point, shooting, or small forward, he's just going to pad that stat sheet.


Terrible.

Why Love can never lead a team anywhere. Not even to the first round.

[Milbuck]

I just gave a reason. The Timberwolves were atrocious in close games and a lot of it was direct Love's fault. Dude couldnt score in fourth quarters or defend in any quarters. His non diverse scoring skillset/arsenal is why he will never be a first option. http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2014/01/08/wolves-better-than-their-record-says/

To claim that squad just wasnt good enough to make the playoffs is wrong. Love was not doing his full part. He was terrible in those games and it sucked the life out of the team. That isnt an excusable offense where you can brush it off and blame the squad 100%. Cp3 lost 1 close game to the Thunder in the playoffs? Kevin Love won zero close games in the regular season. :roll:

That's what I mean by names. Blake, DeAndre and Jamal all underpreformed vs OKC, did they not? Yeah, Cp3 was not perfect. Certainly not his finest moments but your not asking CP3 to guard Durant on a stacked squad. It just isnt happening.

Its not like they lost to some random scrubs. They got beat by Durant and Westbrook.

Put Durant and Westbrook above Cp3, I have no problem. Hell even argue Blake, I guess. But Kevin I cant make the playoffs Love, vs CP3 cant get past the 2nd round? Man, it's not a tough choice.
This seems like it's just gonna be another one of those pointless back and forth discussions that gets nowhere.

All I'm going to say is that I hope you're not seriously trying to act like the Timberwolves cast around Love was even remotely close to the Clippers around CP3, Thunder around Durant, Spurs around whoever, etc.

Trying not to be a dick here, but you consistently surprise me by how willing you are to complete throw away context. Like you are determined to view things on the surface and only on the surface, with zero exceptions.

[knicksman]

So what did Durant do without Westbrook in the 1st round when Russ got injured? Surely since he "carried" Westbrook beating Memphis shoulda been easy right?


Clearly they havent adjusted yet. In fact they also struggled at the start of the season right. Only when they played alot of games that they finally figured out how to play without wb. And thats when westbrook finally got exposed as the cancer that he is. Lol

[Milbuck]

Kevin Love
http://www.hamidsaify.com/blog/kevin-love-is-not-a-superstar

Highlights.




Terrible.

Why Love can never lead a team anywhere. Not even to the first round.
And that has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that his hyped up PG is utterly worthless as a scoring option, and his 2nd scoring option Pekovic missed nearly 30 games?

There's nothing to be said about him being the singular focus of the defense in late game scoring scenarios whereas other top dogs on WC teams have 1-2 other all-star scoring threats capable of taking over games at any time?

I wonder how effective Love would be if he had a top 5 player on his team drawing defensive attention away from him at all times, and to take a huge chunk of the burden off his shoulders for the full 48 minutes so that he's not worn out every single time down the stretch.

[navy]

This seems like it's just gonna be another one of those pointless back and forth discussions that gets nowhere.

All I'm going to say is that I hope you're not seriously trying to act like the Timberwolves cast around Love was even remotely close to the Clippers around CP3, Thunder around Durant, Spurs around whoever, etc.

Trying not to be a dick here, but you consistently surprise me by how willing you are to complete throw away context. Like you are determined to view things on the surface and only on the surface, with zero exceptions.
I never claimed the cast were the same.

I said Love has done nothing to warrant being ranked above CP3.

Most players havent. Except Durant, Westbrook, and Lebron.

Im the only one who applies context. People just spout off "stacked" and "second round" but no numbers, data, proof to show for it.

[Warfan]

Well, yeah. You can't say Steph is better than either of those two because of the other side of the ball. Curry will never be a great defender, period, or compare to WB/CP3 on defense. But offensively, he's as good or better.

Agreed, he's on their level offensively.

[Graviton]

Clearly they havent adjusted yet. In fact they also struggled at the start of the season right. Only when they played alot of games that they finally figured out how to play without wb. And thats when westbrook finally got exposed as the cancer that he is. Lol
Damn, so Westbrook, Lebron and Curry are all cancers ha? As always, your arguments never cease to entertain.

How do you view Melo? Is he a cancer too?

[Milbuck]

I never claimed the cast were the same.

I said Love has done nothing to warrant being ranked above CP3.

This proves my point exactly. You explicitly state there's a difference in the supporting cast, then knock Love for not reaching the success of the Clippers? How the **** are we supposed to expect Love to reach the same team success when his team is so substantially inferior to CP3's?

Your logic makes zero sense. What legendary feats would CP3 be accomplishing on the TWolves?

[navy]

And that has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that his PG is utterly worthless as a scoring option, and his 2nd scoring option Pekovic missed nearly 30 games?

There's nothing to be said about him being the singular focus of the defense in late game scoring scenarios whereas other top dogs on WC teams have 1-2 other all-star scoring threats capable of taking over games at any time?

I wonder how effective Love would be if he had a top 5 player on his team drawing defensive attention away from him at all times, and to take some of the burden off his shoulders for the full 48 minutes so that he's not worn out every single game.

Kevin Love had the same point guard and center for the first 3 quarters. Dont give me that shit. Did they cause him to miss free throws? Be called cancerous in the locker room? :oldlol:

He just doesnt have the arsenal. The dude can put up great stats on a bad team, but he wont lead your team anywhere. The reality is he can make threes at a crazy amount in quarters and it makes it look like he is a top scorer in the game.

That is not reliable. Hence the sharp decline, atrocious numbers.

That's just his scoring. Let's not get into his defense.

[navy]

This proves my point exactly. How the **** are we supposed to expect Love to reach the same team success when his team is so substantially inferior to CP3's?

Your logic makes zero sense. What legendary feats would CP3 be accomplishing on the TWolves?

Kevin Love has never reached the playoffs. What do you want me to say? What has he accomplished? He has no success at all.

CP3 would at least get them there. You think 6 years on the timberwolves and CP3 would have zero playoff appearances?

[Milbuck]

Kevin Love has never reached the playoffs. What do you want me to say? What has he accomplished? He has no success at all.

CP3 would at least get them there. You think 6 years on the timberwolves and CP3 would have zero playoff appearances?
Now you're just recycling the same tired statements from before. As I said, this is getting nowhere. You are 100% opposed to viewing things with context, which is a real shame. I'm out on this one.

[navy]

Now you're just recycling the same tired statements from before. As I said, this is getting nowhere. You are 100% opposed to viewing things with context, which is a real shame. I'm out on this one.
lol, im the only one who has provided context. :facepalm

The only thing you've presented is that you claim Love's team was bad, in which I proved Love was the one who was really falling short. And I provided the reason for him falling short as well. He lacks the scoring arsenal necessary. His scoring is inflated (more like misinterpreted) because of this cray three point makes. But it is not a successful strategy. All this is repeated info none of which you responded to lol. Context.

So where is the context I've ignore? It seems people only want context when it applies to a certain players but not to others.

[oarabbus]

Yeah westbrook being carried by durant and making his team worse is better. Lol that iq of yours is astounding


:biggums:



This last playoffs WCF, Westbrook and Durant each had the team high points 3 times. But Westbrook had a 40 point game and led them in assists EVERY :facepalm


And... Westbrook had a 25/10 game and another 42 point game when he showed up to the Finals. What's CP3s best finals stats?

[livingby3's]

For people bashing Paul for not having playoffs success, i would plead his case much like I would for Nash, who never gotten to an NBA finals.

They played in the western conference their entire careers to this point, where since the 2000s, every titles won by a WC team is either by the Lakers or the Spurs, except one by the Mavs. These two west teams pretty much dominated the entire WC playoffs the last decade; you almost see them in every NBA finals for the last decade.

Nash and Paul both have had great teams, and played with two of the best offensive PFs in their time, Stoudemire and Blake. (They also played with Dirk, who wasn't MVDirk good then and an pretty good player in David West). But for most part of their playoffs I believe their teams had to go against all time great coaches in Phil and Pops, and faced all time great players in Duncan, Kobe, Shaq and to lesser extent, very talented stars like Dirk, Brandon Roy, Aldridge, Durant, Carmelo, Parker/Manu.

As point guards, they played to their best in the playoffs, some bad games between them, but generally when they had good teams they performed up to expectations.

Overrated maybe, but definitely not the worst.

[masonanddixon]

He's incredibly skilled but I hate watching him play (dirty player and flopper) and you'll never win anything with him as your best player.

Him ranked 2nd just proves how shitty this current era is though.

[pnyozzzoo]

simple, CP3 was really good around 2008 when he was health and in
N.O. huge impact player but the team is not there. Give this current clipper team 2008 cp3 they go to conference final or final every other year.

Now he is still a good player but his body is not there anymore so his play and impact dropped a ton. His passiveness at times coz he does not have the body to do wat he did. He is too small he need all his 110% peak form to go places. Less margin for gracefulness.

His team is there now. But he is not anymore.

[knicksman]

Damn, so Westbrook, Lebron and Curry are all cancers ha? As always, your arguments never cease to entertain.

How do you view Melo? Is he a cancer too?

I dont view curry as a score first. Its just that what is a bad look for others is a good look for him. He doesnt force the issue while bran is only impactful coz of his athleticism/height. Compared to his counterpart pure pg(magic) he doesnt fare well. In short he is an underachiever. His only success are 2 cheated rings. And melo was neither a pure or score frst pg

[knicksman]

:biggums:



This last playoffs WCF, Westbrook and Durant each had the team high points 3 times. But Westbrook had a 40 point game and led them in assists EVERY :facepalm


And... Westbrook had a 25/10 game and another 42 point game when he showed up to the Finals. What's CP3s best finals stats?

Not everything about this game is stats. There is a more important thing which they call chemistry. And thats what westbrook does to the team. He destroys the rhythm of his teammates. That everyone came back to being a scrub with him in the line up. In short a cancer. Thats what coaches dont want from iverson or marbury.

[r0drig0lac]

Absolutely yes, there has never been a player with so many apologies for not being a winner, even when there is no excuse (last year), his great stats do not translate in victory when it matters, and yet is placed on the same level of importance players like Lebron, Durant. And historically (lol in comparison with isiah)

[ArbitraryWater]

Well obviously KD is the 2nd best player when healthy, but everyone knows that... Even ESPN knows that (as they noted).

But besides that, he's not overrated at all... If you feel Blake is better, fine... But CP3 has an argument for 3rd, 4th or 5th... It's all pretty much the same tier.


Yes, they are, but the Clippers were deeper and according to most people here, CP3 is a better PG than WB. They even had a better coach.

Um, are you saying Paul had better support than Westbrook?

For starters, Paul and Durant are a deadlier combo than Westbrook/Durant. Mainly because Paul >> Westbrook, and he's a much smarter and unselfish player.

And let's also not ignore how the Refs saved OKC on the brink of elimination in 2 consecutive series' last year...

Clippers and Paul were in fact better.

[Kblaze8855]

And historically (lol in comparison with isiah)

Isiah Thomas himself...among the most prideful players of all time...said hes not sure he was ever as good as Chris Paul.

But of course hes evaluating basketball playing ability and not using middle school arguments about which group of 15 players and coaches won a series.

Probably why scouts, players, gms, and coaches never make these absurd claims about Paul and people who casually glance at the NBA now and then do.

These topics are always supported by the kinds of things id literally have said as a child.

As an adult...I cant imagine using such an argument and thinking id be taken serious.

Closest I think id come is talking about Karl Malone or Reggie Miller...and for both it would be some quip in the middle of a long discussion about basketball playing ability.

Even with Karl I said....


6 games never convinced me of anything. never will. Even guys I hated. Karl Malone in the finals for example...sucked. Ive pointed it out. But explained that he sucked down the stretch because of basketball reasons which were the basis of my thinking he was overrated to begin with. Lack of reliable go to moves. Scoring great volume off great chances to score that he cant get on command. In the end...it was a basketball issue proving itself true. But the finals itself just put it on a big stage to be seen. He sure as hell didnt fail...because it was the finals.

This "If ___ were ___ he would at least go out in round ___" talk...pretty much puts the person saying it on my mental ignore list.

I cant take people like that serious on basketball issues.

I heard the same kind of people saying it of Michael Jordan. Its always been a cheap copout to people who cant defend an absurd opinion.

And dude up there talking about how you cant be the second best player in the league and only take two games off your teams win total(ignoring for a moment it was an extrapolation and not reality to begin with) being out?

Im gonna assume you have zero interest in the history of the game...because a moment of looking into it would show that to be laughable.

Lets not even go into the much discussed 94 Bulls without MJ....

Kareem gets traded for a couple guys you would have to google to know and his team win the exact same number of games they won with him...in his prime. 76ers won 55 games and lost in the same round without Wilt after he left for LA. Elgin Baylor plays I believe...3 minutes of the playoffs in 1965. hes probably a 28/14/4 all NBA first teamer at the time. Team makes the finals...without him. Rick Barry puts up like 40ppg getting the Warriors to the finals in 67...jump to the ABA. Team loses I think 1 more game the next season. Only made the WCF...but they had an easier road the season before because Jerry West missed the playoffs which let them beat the Lakers.

Some of you guys would likely have been on that Penny bandwaggon talking about how Shaq doesnt matter back when they went on that insane run without him in Orlando that turned idiots against him. The paper down there even did a poll asking fans if they would rather keep Penny, Shaq, or coach Hill....

Shaq came in last.

But everyone is shocked he bolts to LA.

Things like this have had people who dont look very close disrespecting all time greats since the inception of sports.

Fans were in here doing that shit when Collison had a good run with CP3 out when they were both Hornets.

I can imagine a football version of ISH in the 60s talking about how Jim Brown is overrated because the Browns were still good with Leroy Kelly....

Which is something ive actually seen in old articles.

You would think 50 years of this happening all the time would provide some clarity...

But I guess you have to look in order to see. Looking is too much to ask it seems.

[aj1987]

Um, are you saying Paul had better support than Westbrook?

For starters, Paul and Durant are a deadlier combo than Westbrook/Durant. Mainly because Paul >> Westbrook, and he's a much smarter and unselfish player.
Honestly, dude. You need to stick to LeBron only topics.

CP3 - 23 PPG 4 RPG 11 APG 3 SPG 61% TS
WB - 28 PPG 6 RPG 9 APG 2 SPG on 62% TS




1 game is forgivable. Well not for Cp3.

An entire season of atrocious fourth quarter performances?

Love was at 35ish % in fourth quarters or something terrible. Stop trying to blame the team. He was directly at fault for alot of it. Free throws be damned.

That was a playoff capable team.
As I said:

Who do you think defenses are going to focus more on? Rubio? Pekovic? That team was full of scrubs who couldn't score. Love was basically the only offensive threat, who could score at will. Not only that, he was also a pretty good passer. So, when your second best player is Rubio during the clutch, you're ****ed.


You can blame Love all you want, but the FACT remains that the second best player on that squad is a guy who can't even make layups. A career 37% shooter. The third best player is a dude who can't create his own shot (Pekovic).

Once again, who do you think the defenses are going to collapse on, in the 4th quarter?

[ArbitraryWater]

*Says Westbrook is better than Paul and I should avoid any topic not including LeBron because I disagree with that*

NBA.com 2014-15 GM Survey

Who is the best point guard in the NBA?
1. Chris Paul, L.A. Clippers -- 71.4%
2. Russell Westbrook, Oklahoma City -- 10.7%
3. Tony Parker, San Antonio -- 7.1%
Last year: Chris Paul -- 70.0%

Gotcha....

In the future, stick to taking it up the ass for Wade only... Okay pal?

[tpols]

*Says Westbrook is better than Paul and I should avoid any topic not including LeBron because I disagree with that*

NBA.com 2014-15 GM Survey

Who is the best point guard in the NBA?
1. Chris Paul, L.A. Clippers -- 71.4%
2. Russell Westbrook, Oklahoma City -- 10.7%
3. Tony Parker, San Antonio -- 7.1%
Last year: Chris Paul -- 70.0%

Gotcha....

In the future, stick to taking it up the ass for Wade only... Okay pal?

Best point guard =/= better player

[ArbitraryWater]

Best point guard =/= better player

.................. I don't even know how to reply to this garbage anymore.... Seriously.... Trolls and Stupidity everywhere.... From the LeBron alts, to 20Four, Goatbe, Milbuck, MarkMadsen, HoopJones, now tpols has catched it too............ Jeff needs to clean this place up.

You REALLY think, there is a disction to be made here, between Paul and Westbrook because of your cute =/= ?

Newsflash: They're both PG's... That's their role.

GM's don't give a **** about someone possibly playing a SG role... They simply see who's listed as PG and then name the superior Individual.

Here, take this award and honor it:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_kAl-3XkJuiI/TLdub6q-b4I/AAAAAAAAAAs/zIeJEbAkdi4/s400/retard.jpg

[fpliii]

:rolleyes:

[StephHamann]

He's not even the best player on his team.

:applause:

[tpols]

Nah, Westbrook is a combo guard.. pg/sg hybrid. Chris Paul is the better point guard because he sets his teammates up better.. but hes much, much worse as a 'scoring' or shooting guard as hes not nearly as explosive, dominant or aggresive pushing runs with his own scoring..

which is why westbrook was able to outplay chris paul in their H2H playoff battle.. he can just bully the little guy really.

You think too simply btw.. just because a player is slotted in at a position doesnt mean he cant do things or have roles outside that positions duties that would make him better than a player who otherwise only covers the fundamentals of their position. Someone brought up in another thread that boris diaw has been playing PF.. but he brings point guard like passing and vision at that spot.. and it of course should be used in a convo about how good he is as a player.


Its like, rondo is a better pure point guard than rose is, but rose is the better player because of his explosive scoring ability.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

lol at Chris Paul being a "much worse" scorer than Westbrook. Why? Because he doesn't take dumb shots and shoot the air outta the ball?

CP is a better defender, passer, shooter, leader, and FAR MORE consistent.

[Pointguard]

He's a hard guy to gauge. He is definitely under-criticized and that plays a role in evaluating him. Very little is expected from him in comparison to other greats or even top point guards:

People rarely say the Clippers have a top two guy, the best bench, the best sixth man, the best big athlete outside of Lebron that averaged better than the GOAT PFs in their rookie year, the most athletic center, great shooting, other creators that take over the game for him! CP wasn't expected to outplay Westbrook who had one of the best all around PG series in recent memory on him. CP isn't expected to make better decisions than the wild Brook. Heck, he wasn't even expected to slow the game down when his team has a seven point lead with less than a minute to go! He isn't expected to make players around him better (Blake, after his rookie year was expected to be off the charts, DJ was on a serious incline) despite being that type of player. He isn't expected to go three rounds.

CP three had all the qualities a pg could want when in their prime: Talent, shooters, finishers, creators, super-athletes, floorspacers, post play, a championship coach and he was expected to lose in the second round. Rose, by contrast, had none of that and was 22 years old and had waaaay more on his plate and was expected to carry the total offense of his team to the championship. To me there is definitely an apologist approach to CP3 but he is definitely a top player.

To complicate things more, if CP3 wins it all this year, most people expect BG to be the finals MVP, because CP is pretty much capped out (his top level is what Westbrook beat up) and the next level is predicated on BG handling it. The expectation level for CP is stunning.

[ArbitraryWater]

lol at Chris Paul being a "much worse" scorer than Westbrook. Why? Because he doesn't take dumb shots and shoot the air outta the ball?

CP is a better defender, passer, shooter, leader, and FAR MORE consistent.

Chris Paul is statistically the most efficient offensive player in league history (#1 ORTG all-time) and the possessions he does waste with turnovers he makes up/cancels out with steals.

The only way he hurts his team is by missed FG's, which are few as he almost makes as many as he misses....

But sure, people like Milbuck want to believe Westbrook is better... Obviously Paul is superior defensively aswell.

Westbrook gets beat alot due to over agressive defense or poor positioning and gambling.

As if GM's would see Westbrook as a hybrid, think Paul is purely better at PG but Westbrook as player...nonsense.

[Shade8780]

Yeah, he's pretty overrated, not a top 3 player imo. He's still better than Westbrook though, but not by a lot.

I would love to see a PG with the athleticism and size of Westbrook and the all-around game and mindset of Paul.

[tpols]

lol at Chris Paul being a "much worse" scorer than Westbrook. Why?.

Because he's worse at putting the ball through the basket when his team needs points. He rarely strings together a run.. Would rather pass out to spot up shooters and play conservatively too any times down the stretch rather than take over the game.

Westbrook annihilated him head to head.. That's really all I had to see.. Chris Paul also gave up a 7pt lead one minute left in a swing game 5. Huge choke.. If that was LeBron or something it'd be 2011 all over again.. Chris Paul allowing Westbrook to be the guy who completed the comeback.

You can take your advanced numbers and your upcoming second round loss with you despite Chris Paul having an even better more well rounded/talented and we'll coached team. I'll stick with wb going off at the right moments and overwhelming the competition leading his team deeper every year

[houston]

yea he overrated

[Thechosen1]

chris paul before his knee injury was the GOAT point guard ever....in terms of sheer ability. Now that his injury ****ed up his ascension it clouds peoples opinions of him thinking this hobbled cp3 is what we should gauge him from...

I still believe the real cp3 is the one we saw before he got hurt....that is what I judge him from...and that player was unstoppable. So NO he isnt....

its actually kind of unfair to judge his ability now that he basically has no meniscus in both his knees.

[j3lademaster]

Westbrook whos another iverson. Teams perform better w/o them yet are treated like superstarsYeah man, the playoffs from the past 2 years really back up what you're saying about Westbrook....

[j3lademaster]

chris paul before his knee injury was the GOAT point guard ever....in terms of sheer ability. Now that his injury ****ed up his ascension it clouds peoples opinions of him thinking this hobbled cp3 is what we should gauge him from...

I still believe the real cp3 is the one we saw before he got hurt....that is what I judge him from...and that player was unstoppable. So NO he isnt....

its actually kind of unfair to judge his ability now that he basically has no meniscus in both his knees.So we should justify CP3's current #2 ranking in basketball because of how good he was in 09?


ESPN is about rank his has the #2 player in the league. Dude is constantly ranked in the top 3 or 5, but never does anything to deserve that rank. Got shit on by the Thunder last year with an really good team. Managed only 56 wins in '13 and '14 with a good team.That was op btw.

[Thechosen1]

So we should justify CP3's current #2 ranking in basketball because of how good he was in 09?

That was op btw.

no, but I still think the current player now is still able to be considered as one of the top 3 in the game....because his all around game has no flaw...to be really honest? cp3s reaaal flaw is that he isnt selfish enough to score during the whole game...he really could do that if he wanted...even now. His issue is its not his natural instinct to be selfish...kinda like someone like carmelo whos natural instinct is to score. Sometimes that can limit a player and make him look worse than he really is.

CP3 has too much skill offensively to not be selfish a bit more to keep the pg defending him honest...but he rather just walk the ball up and let the other teams defense set up which makes it harder for limited offensive players like BG to score...which puts pressure on him to then bail out the team and makes it look like its tough for him to get open....

his issue is making it too easy to defend him when he is in pure pg mode...

cp in i dont give a **** mode...even now is a top 3 player in the league because he mastered his craft to the point he can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants...


good example of cp3 in idgaf mode

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaKvmpfivUk

[oarabbus]

Dwight Howard is more impactful than CP3

[stevieming]

no, but I still think the current player now is still able to be considered as one of the top 3 in the game....because his all around game has no flaw...to be really honest? cp3s reaaal flaw is that he isnt selfish enough to score during the whole game...he really could do that if he wanted...even now. His issue is its not his natural instinct to be selfish...kinda like someone like carmelo whos natural instinct is to score. Sometimes that can limit a player and make him look worse than he really is.

CP3 has too much skill offensively to not be selfish a bit more to keep the pg defending him honest...but he rather just walk the ball up and let the other teams defense set up which makes it harder for limited offensive players like BG to score...which puts pressure on him to then bail out the team and makes it look like its tough for him to get open....

his issue is making it too easy to defend him when he is in pure pg mode...

cp in i dont give a **** mode...even now is a top 3 player in the league because he mastered his craft to the point he can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants...


good example of cp3 in idgaf mode

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaKvmpfivUk

Yes he can be unselfish, but I think he can't sustain that mode where he needs to take over, as he runs out of gas....which is why he seems to always save his energy until the latter stages of the game to see if he does need to take over...

i am a big fan of CP3 but the last post season showed me he is in decline and Westbrook outplayed him.

[Smoke117]

If anything he's become underrated because of how disrespected he is now. :biggums: He is going to end up like Dirk...the whole thing about him was that he could never get it done, that first round loss etc...then the Mavs won and everyone is sucking his dick. The same thing will happen with CP3.

[ralph_i_el]

Because he's worse at putting the ball through the basket when his team needs points. He rarely strings together a run.. Would rather pass out to spot up shooters and play conservatively too any times down the stretch rather than take over the game.

Westbrook annihilated him head to head.. That's really all I had to see.. Chris Paul also gave up a 7pt lead one minute left in a swing game 5. Huge choke.. If that was LeBron or something it'd be 2011 all over again.. Chris Paul allowing Westbrook to be the guy who completed the comeback.

You can take your advanced numbers and your upcoming second round loss with you despite Chris Paul having an even better more well rounded/talented and we'll coached team. I'll stick with wb going off at the right moments and overwhelming the competition leading his team deeper every year

This is just not true. CP3 has a way better pull up game than Westbrook. He's probably the best in the game at the pull-up from the elbow. He's taken the game over in the clutch so many times.

Its not efficient or effective for him to try and be the primary scorer all game in the long run. Its not all about your best player dropping 25 a game when it comes to winning. He's the best passer/ball handler in the league...obviously he's going to be setting people up. That doesn't mean Russ is a better scorer. He just attacks more often.

When are we going to quit shitting on top5 players for not winning a championship half way through their career? Its just super annoying and it doesn't really say anything. That's what is implied by most people hating on CP3. "How dare people say he's top 3 if he hasnt been to the finals". We've seen the teams he's been on. He's performed well in the playoffs over his career. Remember that 46 pt game against the Lakers?

That being said, this is the best team he's been on and the Clippers are my pick to win the west this year. I love Russ, and KD is my favorite non-Wizard...but I need OKC to lose so we can bring KD to the DMV lol

[imdaman99]

If anything he's become underrated because of how disrespected he is now. :biggums: He is going to end up like Dirk...the whole thing about him was that he could never get it done, that first round loss etc...then the Mavs won and everyone is sucking his dick. The same thing will happen with CP3.
How is someone that is rated #2 underrated? :roll: I don't understand some of you all.

Chris Paul is a top 5 player... as long as it's the regular season.

[tpols]

When are we going to quit shitting on top5 players for not winning a championship half way through their career?


Not winning a championship? Hes never even been out of the second round of the playoffs. You cant compare him to a guy like Dirk.. who led his team to the finals over prime duncan and was like 5 minutes away from a championship. Chris paul is the PG tmac.. but worse since his teams were actually good.

His cast now is all time great help level.. he might even be the second option going forward, thats how good they are, but in all likely hood well see another early bounce unless griffin becomes a clutch go to scorer out of nowhere.


Its funny because westbrook can directly outplay the guy and prove H2H hes better, but you still have people acting like its dumb to compare the two. Westbrook is better.:oldlol: If anything its an insult to him right now to be put on the same level.

[Kblaze8855]

Westbrook annihilated him head to head.. That's really all I had to see..

Then you arent looking at much. The best player is the best player vs the nba...not who has an advantage one on one.

If you play better vs the...entire NBA...but one guy gives you hell...hes not better than you. Hes a mismatch vs your team.

The best player is the best player....even if someone can match him the 3-6 times a year they play. The other 85 games settle the issue.

[ralph_i_el]

Not winning a championship? Hes never even been out of the second round of the playoffs. You cant compare him to a guy like Dirk.. who led his team to the finals over prime duncan and was like 5 minutes away from a championship. Chris paul is the PG tmac.. but worse since his teams were actually good.

His cast now is all time great help level.. he might even be the second option going forward, thats how good they are, but in all likely hood well see another early bounce unless griffin becomes a clutch go to scorer out of nowhere.


Its funny because westbrook can directly outplay the guy and prove H2H hes better, but you still have people acting like its dumb to compare the two. Westbrook is better.:oldlol: If anything its an insult to him right now to be put on the same level.

Last season was the first year CP3 had a champ level squad. David West was a nice player back on the hornets, but CP3 made him an all star.

I met CP3 and he's an absolute gem of a person. He went out of his way to come talk to us and sign autographs/shake hands. Very well spoken and polite too. I've met a few ballers and he was by far the nicest. I know that doesn't matter in this discussion but idk I like to share.

[tpols]

Last season was the first year CP3 had a champ level squad. David West was a nice player back on the hornets, but CP3 made him an all star.

I met CP3 and he's an absolute gem of a person. He went out of his way to come talk to us and sign autographs/shake hands. Very well spoken and polite too. I've met a few ballers and he was by far the nicest. I know that doesn't matter in this discussion but idk I like to share.

Everything he did on indy even post injury directly contradicts that


The best player is the best player vs the nba...not who has an advantage one on one.


Theyre both great against other competition.. westbrook has had many big games/series just like paul has. H2H is the tiebreaker in his case.. itd be like saying clyde was better than mj after the 92 finals because (lts say hypothetically) he had a better regular season PER.. who cares? He got crushed when it counted.

Or better example hakeem vs David Robinson.. drob could have better advanced stats during the regular season and then get killed in the playoffs.

[Kblaze8855]

I deleted references to both those series from my last post just to see if your response would mention them. Hakeem/Drob I was sure you would bring up...

Anyway....Hakeem and Jordan were already coming off title seasons with supporting casts that were just....ok.

The clyde comparison especially was weak. Nobody serious made that comparison.

Drob and Hakeem were closer...but it was a straight head to head #1 vs #1 battle. Westbrook isnt even on his own team. Hes Durants #2. And it wasnt a 1 vs I think 7 matchup Hakeem just took over. The thunder were supposed to win to begin with.

The only thing terribly similar is that the assumed best player in all those matchups(paul, Hakeem, and Jordan) all could have lost and come out still considered better.

Paul clearly proved that.

The Westbrook >paul thing is largely an internet fan thing I dont think is taken too serious by basketball people.

If the Clippers called and offered the trade....the Thunder listen. If not agree. The Clippers would hang up.

It isnt like a....mile wide gap. But there doesnt seem to be much question who has the #1 spot. It just seems to frustrate some people that evaluators of basketball dont do it the way they want them to.

Its no different than when people were saying Deron>paul because of head to head matchups.

It didnt work that way then...it doesnt now...it never will.

[tpols]

Paul is just as much a number two in the playoffs as westbrook is.. Blake's been coming up. The team needs him to shine more than paul if they want to win..

Last year Durant was getting locked up, far from shining at all, and Westbrook stepped up as the best player on his team to get the thunder as far as they could go. He killed three straight matchups of all star or borderline all star level guards in conley-->chris paul-->tony parker.. so bad the tony had to be benched.

His size is a mismatch in any series against almost any point guard and he overwhlems/takes over games far more than paul does. Its not just that one series, Westbrook was better in the playoffs as a whole.. 20 games not 5 or 6.

The supporting cast argument needs to end. Chris Paul is playing on and has been playing on absolutely loaded teams. Monster rebounding and scoring frontcourts, couple good spot up shooters, and a 6th man of the year candidate off the bench.. with a coach who has great experience and has won before/proven himself.

[Kblaze8855]

I didnt say Paul has no supporting cast...I said Westbrook is a part of Kevin Durants. Thats just how it is. When the teams best player is a 32ppg MVP...you do not....never did...and never will...get credit for leading the team.

Durant will always get more credit and historical judgement off the Thunders winning and failing.

Paul gets hated on for the Clippers losing. Not Blake. It should be fairly obvious...the way you are blaming Paul right now....and not Blake.

Its Chris Pauls team.

The Thunder are Kevin Durants.

[tpols]

When Blake Griffin outscores and outshoots Chris Paul throughout the whole playoffs more than KD outscores and outshoots Westbrook.. and youre saying WB cant compare to Paul because he isnt enough of a first option, your argument isn't going to make any sense.

[Kblaze8855]

You want 30 examples of a point guard being his teams best player while not being the teams top scorer? I suspect I could give it to you off the top of my head.

Its not about first option...its about best player. Durant is both. Pointguards often do more playmaking than scoring. We really have to go into why that is? Westbrook is not one of those points...so his impact is often more visible in his scoring. Paul does it all....but has always been prone to pass first. Anyway....

Durant is the leagues MVP and probably one of the 20-25 best player ever.

The Thunder are his team. The Clippers are chris pauls.

[tpols]

I prefer to look at individual impact rather than arbitrary labels for defining whose better.. If I see westbrook outplaying Chris Paul Im not going to be like 'eh, hes just a second option though.. who cares if Russels playing defense on Chris.. and Chris is playing defense on russell, russel is winning this shit for his team, but eh.. just a second option'


Its like a false way of saying 'theres more help distracting the defense for westbrook than there is for paul'.. but we all know that isnt the case. Blake+ Deandre make defenses sink off the PnR and open up very wide lanes all the time with the threat of their finishing ability. The team is loaded.

I just dont see WB having an easier time because of his help more than paul does. They have equal tools to work with and both are HOF level players.

[knicksman]

Let westbrook have his own team and i bet he will do worse than iverson. 1 50+ win team in his career. Lol but but hes a superstar coz espn said so. Lol these gullible idiots

[Kblaze8855]

A lot of that we just arent seeing eye to eye on so im not gonna stretch this out forever. Im pretty content to know that virtually everyone of note...doesnt have a problem with the idea that Paul is the best point in the NBA. Not all agree....but its the general consensus. Fringe opinions are never gonna go away. I suspect the 70% of GMs saying Paul is about what most fans would line up with. It wouldnt be 80-90...but I doubt its 50/50 either. That said...something you said stood out...



who cares if Russels playing defense on Chris.. and Chris is playing defense on russell, russel is winning this shit for his team, but eh.. just a second option'

Its amusing to me how often two guys being compared...ARENT defending eachother.

Of course they cross paths often....but its not so much like the Hakeem/Drob battles.

Guys on here talking about Lebron got owned by Leonard who at one point scored on lebron like 6 times over 3 games.

I watched Westbrooks highlights vs the Clippers maybe 45 minutes ago. Hes out there tipping in rebounds, scoring on the break vs nobody in particular, making open threes, and going by on pick and rolls like....everyone else.

Individual matchups barely even exist the way I was used to in the ISO and illegal defense era.

[Dro]

I don't know how in the world CP3 is overrated...

[Dro]

A lot of that we just arent seeing eye to eye on so im not gonna stretch this out forever. Im pretty content to know that virtually everyone of note...doesnt have a problem with the idea that Paul is the best point in the NBA. Not all agree....but its the general consensus. Fringe opinions are never gonna go away. I suspect the 70% of GMs saying Paul is about what most fans would line up with. It wouldnt be 80-90...but I doubt its 50/50 either. That said...something you said stood out...




Its amusing to me how often two guys being compared...ARENT defending eachother.

Of course they cross paths often....but its not so much like the Hakeem/Drob battles.

Guys on here talking about Lebron got owned by Leonard who at one point scored on lebron like 6 times over 3 games.

I watched Westbrooks highlights vs the Clippers maybe 45 minutes ago. Hes out there tipping in rebounds, scoring on the break vs nobody in particular, making open threes, and going by on pick and rolls like....everyone else.

Individual matchups barely even exist the way I was used to in the ISO and illegal defense era.
Yep, guys basically just run pick and rolls until the defense switches...Rarely do 2 guys actually match up against each other unless they're post players...

[Kblaze8855]

Let westbrook have his own team and i bet he will do worse than iverson. 1 50+ win team in his career. Lol but but hes a superstar coz espn said so. Lol these gullible idiots

Same as Oscar Robertson till he joined Kareem late in his career.

Same as a LOT of others in the hall of fame. Dave Bing pre role player on the Bullets days. Rather difficult to sting together 50 win seasons when....



In 02 the teams top 4 scorers missed a total of 97 games. They were 36-24 in the games AI started...even with the rest of the offense being in and out.

In 2000 his second leading scorer played just 32 games and Hill, Ratliff, and Huges missed chunks of the season(hughes missed 32 games ratliff 24). AI himself 12. And he still got them 49 wins. Healthy I can see 55 or more. But they still won a series.

In 03 his second best player was a 2 years from retirement Keith Vanhorn. But he led them to 48 wins and a playoff series win.

In 04 he missed 34 games, Glenn Robinson(his newest "sidekick to take pressure off him") missed 40 games, and they changed coaches. Team did nothing.

Then hes got straight role players top to bottom plus 21 games of Webber.

The only year they should have probably been better than they were...in his entire Philly run...is 2006.

He goes to Denver...one year Nene misses a chunk of the season and Melo gets in the fight in NY so hes out for a while suspended. 15 games I wanna say. Next season Nene misses the whole season. They win 50 games anyway. He comes back healthy the next year and they also add Birdman as Camby left and they win 4 more games so they play the Hornets in the first round instead of the Kobe/Gasol Lakers or Spurs who won the title that they got to play with AI. Anyone think Melo minus the suspension or Nene playing at all might help them win 3-4 more games?

AI got a lot of bad breaks. But we sweep them under the rug. When someone else gets judged at face value of the season we look into why. With Ai not doing so well...people act like its him.

When its Wade, Kobe, or most anyone else....we gotta look deeper. Ai? Judge it by the cover.

[Graviton]

Its no different than when people were saying Deron>paul because of head to head matchups.

It didnt work that way then...it doesnt now...it never will.
It wasn't just internet basketball fans saying that back then. Here is the 2011-2012 GM survey...

Who is the best point guard in the NBA?

1. Derrick Rose, Chicago -- 59.3%
2. Chris Paul, L.A. Clippers -- 37.0%
3. Russell Westbrook, Oklahoma City -- 3.7%

Last year: Deron Williams -- 50.0%

[Young X]

Last year: Deron Williams -- 50.0%Paul missed half of 2010 because of injury. Those predictions were before the 2011 season started i.e based on the 2010 season. Look at the GM surveys from when Paul was healthy...

[Kblaze8855]

Yea...pretty obvious why he lost that one. He came in second having played just 45 games.

[Pointguard]

Paul missed half of 2010 because of injury. Those predictions were before the 2011 season started i.e based on the 2010 season. Look at the GM surveys from when Paul was healthy...
Got your years wrong. He posted for the year 2012.

[c5terror]

ESPN is about rank his has the #2 player in the league. Dude is constantly ranked in the top 3 or 5, but never does anything to deserve that rank. Got shit on by the Thunder last year with an really good team. Managed only 56 wins in '13 and '14 with a good team.

Alltime?
its kareem,
today?
Lebron