All Time Draft Round 1 Eastern Conference 5vs12 and 4vs13

[barkleynash]

VOTING IS OPEN TO EVERYONE. However, the requirement is that you have >100 post counts, and your account must be registered before Sept 14. Troll votes would not be taken into account (subjected to veto by the 3 commissioners).
Voting will end on Halloween at 11:59pm


Eastern Conference


#5 Team Kshutts
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10650330&postcount=1039 (team synopsis)

PG: Oscar Robertson 63-64
SG/PG: Jerry West 65-66
SF: Bruce Bowen 02-03
PF: Karl Malone 97-98
C: Dikembe Mutumbo 95-96

Bench: Doug Christie 02-03
James Harden 11-12
AK47 07-08
Donyell Marshall 04-05
Artis Gilmore 81-82

Coach: Rick Adelman


VS


#12 Team Iamgine
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10649894&postcount=1032 (team synopsis)

PG: Michael Cooper 86-87
SG: Mitch Richmond 93-94
SF/PF: Larry Bird 85-86
PF/C Dave Cowens 75-76
C: Moses Malone 82-83

Bench:Fat Lever 87-08
James Posey 05-06
Paul Pierce 05-06
Kevin McHale 86-87
Brad Daughtery 92-93

Coach: Phil Jackson



AND


#4 Team MP Trey
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10648849&postcount=1024

PG: Steve Nash 05-06
SG: John Havlicek 70-71
SF: Reggie Lewis 91-92
PF: Ralph Sampson 84-85
C: Hakeem Olajuwon 94-95

Bench: Sam Cassell 95-96
Drazen Petrovic 91-92
Shane Battier 12-13
Amare Stoudamire 04-05
Jack Sikma 77-78


VS


#13 Team Aboutbuckets

PG: Jason Kidd 09-10
SG: George Gervin
SF/PF: James Worthy
PF: Charles Barkley 86-87
C: Bill Walton 76-77

Bench: Deron Williams 07-08
Kyle Korver 09-10
Shawn Marion 05-06
Ryan Anderson 10-11
Thiago Splitter 12-13

Coach: Mike Krzyzewski


Good luck to all! You may start your debate now.

Eastern Conference 1vs16 and 8vs9: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10664616#post10664616
Western Conference 2vs15 and 7vs10: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10665193#post10665193
Western Conference 6vs11 and 3vs14: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10665349#post10665349

Link back to home playoff page: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10664321#post10664321

[kshutts1]

Reserved, to be edited, for my game plan.

I'm very unsure of how game plans work. Are they in a constant state of flux, back and forth? Regardless, I guess I'll take the first stab...

1) I'm starting AK47 to better deal with Bird's size, and Gilmore because I'm worried less about forays into the paint and more about post scoring.
2) Not sure who Coop will guard, but I'll assume Oscar. If that's the case, I'm planting Oscar in the post, where he can use his size. If West, then Oscar will have the ball roughly 1037437403% of the time, working against Richmond. Not that he's a bad defender, but Oscar is otherworldly with the ball in his hands. Richmond would have to be Cooper or Pippen to deal with him.
3) When Oscar in the post is not working, West should be able to destroy Richmond.
4) I believe that the lateral quickness of Iamgine is lacking. My outside shooting is deadly. There will be an emphasis on the 3.
5) Neither of our teams is built to run, though both have players that can run. I will "play with fire" as it were and crash the offensive glass, hard. Moses is a monster, and I want every advantage I can get.
6) I believe that my guards will get the opposing bigs in foul trouble... this is one of the few teams where that doesn't really help me... but obviously the "free points" will.
7) No rim protection against my guard-heavy lineup likely is the deciding factor. Harden, Oscar and West will get to the rim and convert at a high rate without fear of being blocked.

[kshutts1]

MP v Buckets is a phenomenal matchup. I want to see breakdowns before I do anything. In my opinion, the teams are quite similar/even.

[iamgine]

Seems like an easy match up for my team. Phil Jackson had beaten Adelman many many times. Jerry West was good but even MJ had trouble with Richmond, West would be overwhelmed by Mitch's physicality both offensively and defensively. Coop should be able to contain Oscar very well as Coop's proven to be able to guard an even bigger person in Bird. With three 7 footers guarding the rim, his guards ain't doing nothing. Plus rebounding difference is simply too much, especially when Fat gets into the game.

[kshutts1]

Seems like an easy match up for my team. Phil Jackson had beaten Adelman many many times. Jerry West was good but even MJ had trouble with Richmond, West would be overwhelmed by Mitch's physicality both offensively and defensively. Coop should be able to contain Oscar very well as Coop's proven to be able to guard an even bigger person in Bird. With three 7 footers guarding the rim, his guards ain't doing nothing. Plus rebounding difference is simply too much, especially when Fat gets into the game.
I see no rebounding difference... for your team.

Let's say Cowens/Moses is equivalent to Karl/Dikembe.
Now you're telling me that Richmond, Cooper, Bird are better rebounders than West, Oscar, AK? No. I'm the better rebounding team.

Your "three 7 footers guarding the rim" aren't shot blockers. They'll have no shot at stopping Oscar, West, Harden, or even Karl for that matter.

Add in my far superior chemistry, and I win in 6.

[raiderfan19]

Since this is actually being debated I'll reserve my thoughts till later.

[raiderfan19]

As for the mp trey matchup two questions. One, who checks chuck? Second would you consider starting amare in this particular matchup since this one of the few times it would make more sense to run the pick and roll as opposed to giving dream the ball and letting him work.

[iamgine]

I see no rebounding difference... for your team.

Let's say Cowens/Moses is equivalent to Karl/Dikembe.
Now you're telling me that Richmond, Cooper, Bird are better rebounders than West, Oscar, AK? No. I'm the better rebounding team.

Your "three 7 footers guarding the rim" aren't shot blockers. They'll have no shot at stopping Oscar, West, Harden, or even Karl for that matter.

Add in my far superior chemistry, and I win in 6.
I guess there's just a difference in opinion.

Cowens/Moses are far superior rebounder than Karl/Dikembe.

[kshutts1]

I guess there's just a difference in opinion.

Cowens/Moses are far superior rebounder than Karl/Dikembe.
Moses is the best rebounder on the court. But I have rebounding at every single position, and you don't have a running team to take advantage of my crashing the boards.

I'll win the FT battle and the rebound battle. My chemistry is better. And I have one of the top defenses in the league.

[iamgine]

Moses is the best rebounder on the court. But I have rebounding at every single position, and you don't have a running team to take advantage of my crashing the boards.

I'll win the FT battle and the rebound battle. My chemistry is better. And I have one of the top defenses in the league.
Nah, your team is far inferior in rebounding. Your chemistry is not better. And Phil has beaten Adelman many many times.

[kshutts1]

Nah, your team is far inferior in rebounding. Your chemistry is not better. And Phil has beaten Adelman many many times.
I feel like we could go back and forth all day.. No I win! No I do! :lol

My chemistry is most definitely better, as you have a ridiculously high-usage guard, plus other big stars, off the bench. I don't see the minutes and ball allocation working.
Your team is more talented than mine, though it's all on the bench... but it is. But I foresee that hurting you. Either you give out equal minutes and Bird/Coop/Moses are negated, or you play your bench with bench minutes, and they're upset.
My top 3 players are arguably better than yours (West, Oscar, Karl), have no infringement upon their minutes, the guys behind them won't grumble, and even though my supporting cast is not made up of historical greats, they all offer historically great skill sets.

[kshutts1]

One last note before bed, assuming I'm allowed to make this change after we began a discussion...

Gilmore will start against this team. I'm not worried about the players attacking the paint. Gilmore's rebounding is equivalent to Dikembe's, so that substitution should have no bearing on our rebounding or chemistry arguments.

I'll make the change in my first-post breakdown, but I'll change it back if I waited too long to make this lineup change.

[iamgine]

I feel like we could go back and forth all day.. No I win! No I do! :lol

My chemistry is most definitely better, as you have a ridiculously high-usage guard, plus other big stars, off the bench. I don't see the minutes and ball allocation working.
Your team is more talented than mine, though it's all on the bench... but it is. But I foresee that hurting you. Either you give out equal minutes and Bird/Coop/Moses are negated, or you play your bench with bench minutes, and they're upset.
My top 3 players are arguably better than yours (West, Oscar, Karl), have no infringement upon their minutes, the guys behind them won't grumble, and even though my supporting cast is not made up of historical greats, they all offer historically great skill sets.
It's just difference in opinion. I don't see your team as good as you see it. It's very 'meh'. Therefore I think it will be an easy matchup.`

[Gotterdammerung]

One more post before I hit the sack.

Kshutts vs Iamgine is a great matchup. Probably go 6 or 7 games.
At first glance Kshutts should have the advantage, with two Pantheon greats in Oscar & West, but Iamgine has the superior frontcourt with Moses, McHale, Bird and Cowens. Hell, Brad Daughtery might not even see the court!
:biggums:
Karl Malone will run whoever out of the gym, even tho McHale may neutralize some of his low post moves. Mutombo should sit cuz he probably cannot keep Moses off the glass, so it'll be up to the A-Train. The biggest mismatch is easily Larry Bird vs Bruce Bowen. Bowen was a terrific defender of athletic slashers like Carter or McGrady, but he can't do much vs a wiley 6' 10

[wally_world]

Leaning towards Team Iamgine. I don't think Kshutts has anyone to check Bird, who happens to be the best player in this matchup. AK47 more of a utility defender than a lock down 1 on 1 guy IMO. With Coop checking Oscar, I expect West to be the primary option, but having to guard Mitch on the other end might wear him down a little. Pierce off the bench can be a huge difference maker as well. The 3 headed monsters in the lowpost for both teams probably too close to call, but with a system in place for Team Iamgine, I like them a little more. Would like to see if Kshutts can come up with any mismatches because right now, given the matchups, coaching and gameplan, I prefer Team Iamgine.

Would like to hear more from the other 2 GMs before I comment on the other matchup. Definitely a potential upset seeing how well those 2 teams matchup.

[MP.Trey]

Don't have time for a real writeup of any sort until tonight but I wanna say congrats to AboutBuckets for creating a very good team that got less votes than it deserves.

My initial thoughts are that Battier And Sikma are going to get more minutes off the bench than usual. Amare is athletic enough to defend Barkley but not strong enough, Sampson is mobile enough but again, not strong enough which is why I'll throw mostly a combination of Dream and Battier against him while throwing the long Sampson on Walton. Who is good in the post, but nothing earth shattering and will not abuse the combination of Sampson/Amare/Sikma that will be guarding him.

Reggie Lewis who is long and athletic, I feel will have no trouble keeping up with Gervin leaving Battier and Hondo the opportunity to D up Worthy. On the offensive end, we're going to run with this team and it may not play to our strengths to keep this game in the halfcourt. Considering moving Amare up the rotation.

But I feel like Nash would outrun the older Kidd, keeping him on his toes. Havlicek/Lewis/Drazen will keep Worthy and Gervin busy with their major activity on the wings. Especially Gervin, who's not known for his defensive effort. While Hakeem can still do work against anyone he's matched up with. I feel like I have better shooters in the regular rotation and I feel like I have a better and more cohesive bench unit as well.


Good luck to AB and good matchup round one.

[kshutts1]

@Gotter - I edited my original post to say AK and Gilmore will play over Bowen/Dikembe.


AK will match up with Bird. "Utility defender" or not, he has nearly identical size so as to disrupt the shot, and more than enough quickness to stay in front of Bird.

I want to get an answer from Iamgine as to how his team will defend my constantly driving guards. With no shot blocker, it will be a field day at the rim. If the defense commits down to help, then my bevy of shooters have a field day, as his players don't have the quickness on the perimeter to recover.

When the guards are not doing a drive-and-kick, the combination in the post of Gilmore and Karl will force Cowens to guard someone. Now he's not a bad defender, but he's not on Moses' level, either. Either Karl or Gilmore would abuse Cowens down low.

On my team's defense, Iamgine has elite passing. But I trust my defenders to be able to keep up with his offensive players. I won't need to help off anyone, which means that far superior passing is negated.

Will West get tired, having to chase around Richmond and being the creator on offense? If he does, Oscar and Christie are no slouches defensively, and either one can check Richmond adequately enough.

In the end, even if the individual matchups are close, I see Adelman's more open/motion offense wearing out the slow-footed team. When we're not taking advantage of the lack of shot blocking (keep in mind that all four of Oscar, West, Harden and Karl averaged around 10 FTA per 36 mins), my shooters will be raining wide open triples after kick-outs and extra passes.

Bird will be brilliant, but he'll still be shooting over and passing around one of the longer and more quick defenders he has ever faced (combination of both). I see AK really making Bird earn whatever he gets. It won't be easy.

[barkleynash]

Despite the solid/great D from Ak47 and Coop I see Larry and Oscar both having their way with them in this series. Oscar (maybe the strongest pg ever to play) would bully the slight Coop and Bird would be offended a white euro guy was guarding him and go extra hard (kinda kidding, but I just don't see AK47 or anyone for that matter slowing down a prime Larry.)

As for West I'd def let him rest defensively on Coop and let the much more physical Big O deal with Richmond.

Very tough matchup to decide on as it's very much a case of superior guard play vs superior big man play. Gonna wait longer to hear more arguments. Maybe my favorite first round matchup!

[kshutts1]

Very tough matchup to decide on as it's very much a case of superior guard play vs superior big man play. Gonna wait longer to hear more arguments. Maybe my favorite first round matchup!
You're not the first person to say it, but I truly don't see how his big man play is superior. I guess it's all about "degrees". Is it FAR superior? Or a 7/10 whereas mine is a 6.8/10? I can get on board with his bigs being better, but not by a lot.

I know this is not a breakdown, but my guards are WAY better than his. Both of my guards are better offensively than both of his. I mean, considering how close the bigs are, it is absolutely shocking how badly my guards destroy his. He might have the worst starting backcourt in the league, and I definitely have the best.
To go further, West and Coop are equivalent defenders, and Oscar is a better defender than Richmond. Both West and Oscar are much, much more varied in their skillset, too, and can kill you in any way.
That said, if we're doing a rating, my guards are a 9.9/10, his are maybe a 6/10. So even if he has the advantage in big men, it's very slight, particularly relative to my overpowering guard play.

[Jlamb47]

Team#5 wins and Team#4 wins

[wally_world]

When the guards are not doing a drive-and-kick, the combination in the post of Gilmore and Karl will force Cowens to guard someone. Now he's not a bad defender, but he's not on Moses' level, either. Either Karl or Gilmore would abuse Cowens down low.

Moses wasn't known for his defense was he? My impression has always been Cowens being a better defender than Moses, didn't Cowens make multiple all-defensive teams? McHale is a great weakside shot blocker as well, many might forget. I honestly like Team Iamgine's bigs synergy alot more, along with the triangle in place, I think they hold an edge.

Good point about exploiting the slower Team Iamgine, would take that into consideration when making my decision.

[Gotterdammerung]

Had Iamgine picked a better backcourt, with say Earl the Pearl Monroe or Andrew Toney and Bob Cousy, or Maurice Cheeks, I'd pick his team over Kshutts. As it is, Kshutts' frontcourt with Karl Malone and Artis Gilmore is solid and talented, and will not be as overpowered by Iamgine's superior bigs as much as his backcourt will be dominated by Kshutts.

And you need a dominant ball carrier to control the pace of the game. Either West or Oscar can dictate the tempo, while Iamgine's bigs are dependent on an inferior backcourt. That might be the difference in a hotly contested playoff series.
:durantunimpressed:

[kshutts1]

Moses wasn't known for his defense was he? My impression has always been Cowens being a better defender than Moses, didn't Cowens make multiple all-defensive teams? McHale is a great weakside shot blocker as well, many might forget. I honestly like Team Iamgine's bigs synergy alot more, along with the triangle in place, I think they hold an edge.

Good point about exploiting the slower Team Iamgine, would take that into consideration when making my decision.
He's known for his rebounding (which is linked with D) and being a dbag, lol.

But he was a nasty defender, as well.

And as for McHale being a weakside blocker, he may have been. But he'll be guarding Malone, and with Malone's jumper, McHale won't be in the paint when the guards are driving. He won't have time to really scare my guards. Too slow. We get back to the utter lack of quickness for Iamgine. It will hurt him in all phases of the game.

[kshutts1]

My official votes are for MP and myself.

For MP, I think that Sampson being literally a foot taller than Barkley will make Chuck's job more difficult. He's already saddled with being the star. Now he's a foot shorter? Rough.
Plus, Hondo was nasty and very underrated.
Neither team incorporates regular shooting, based on rotations, except for PG... but I think Nash will run circles around Kidd and just generally be his annoying self.

[raiderfan19]

Btw, didn't Moses and bird legit hate each other,

[Gotterdammerung]

Btw, didn't Moses and bird legit hate each other,
More of a "I'm tired of playing that guy" than "eternal vengeance" kind of thing.

Similar to how the Bulls hated Rodman before he joined them.

[Juges8932]

I can't seem to decide between Kshutts vs Iamgine. Kshutts has the better guards, with a lot of versatility there. He has good perimeter defenders that he could rotate through on Bird (I'd guess AK47 would probably be on him more due to size, but we've seen time and again coaches rotating different defenders on star players to try and disrupt them from adapting and figuring out the defender/defense). But Iamgine has a lot of depth in the front court. Especially if McHale/Pierce get pretty equal playtime with the starters, I see a lot of ball movement and scoring ability. Kshutts has Malone in the front court to provide some offense, but Iamgine has a lot more scoring ability there IMO. I also like Jackson's ability to coach a slower team, which Iamgine's team is definitely slow, but he's slow with good ball movement.

I have to go with MP Trey in the second matchup pretty much due to Nash (nobody is stopping him on AB's team) and Olajuwon (nobody can touch him there). I think AB's team got an unfavorable matchup round 1. I like D Will off the bench, but I think given MP's size in the front court, it leaves too much flexibility in swapping Sampson on to Walton and Olajuwon on to Barkley, giving his best player (Barkley) a tough matchup in a game he would have to do quite a bit of carrying offensively IMO. Walton cannot keep up with Olajuwon if his life depended on it and Barkley wasn't a terrific defender and certainly not enough to make up for a height difference against Olajuwon who could work his game against guys quite a bit taller than himself. And nobody on the bench would have a chance at guarding him either.

[kshutts1]

I can't seem to decide between Kshutts vs Iamgine. ...
I also like Jackson's ability to coach a slower team, which Iamgine's team is definitely slow, but he's slow with good ball movement.

To beat a dead horse.. what does good ball movement do when the defense rarely needs to double, and the offense is slow?

[barkleynash]

He's known for his rebounding (which is linked with D) and being a dbag, lol.

But he was a nasty defender, as well.

And as for McHale being a weakside blocker, he may have been. But he'll be guarding Malone, and with Malone's jumper, McHale won't be in the paint when the guards are driving. He won't have time to really scare my guards. Too slow. We get back to the utter lack of quickness for Iamgine. It will hurt him in all phases of the game.

Leaning toward the West/Oscar/Malone big 3 but as a Celtis guy I have to take issue of the "Too slow." comment in regards to McHale. Unless you just meant he wouldn't have time to recover than it's all good but McHale was actually deceivingly quick and would often guard most small forwards and let Bird relax against slower posts. Now that I got that off my chest I'll register my vote for Team Kshutts. Their advantages from the guard play do outweigh Iamgine's post edge. Kshutt's in 7 (sorry Larry :facepalm )

[raiderfan19]

I take kshutts and mp trey. I apparently think higher of kshutts than everyone else but I don't think this would be quite as close as everyone else does.

[barkleynash]

My initial thoughts are that Battier And Sikma are going to get more minutes off the bench than usual. Amare is athletic enough to defend Barkley but not strong enough, Sampson is mobile enough but again, not strong enough which is why I'll throw mostly a combination of Dream and Battier against him while throwing the long Sampson on Walton. Who is good in the post, but nothing earth shattering and will not abuse the combination of Sampson/Amare/Sikma that will be guarding him.

Reggie Lewis who is long and athletic, I feel will have no trouble keeping up with Gervin leaving Battier and Hondo the opportunity to D up Worthy. On the offensive end, we're going to run with this team and it may not play to our strengths to keep this game in the halfcourt. Considering moving Amare up the rotation.

But I feel like Nash would outrun the older Kidd, keeping him on his toes. Havlicek/Lewis/Drazen will keep Worthy and Gervin busy with their major activity on the wings. Especially Gervin, who's not known for his defensive effort. While Hakeem can still do work against anyone he's matched up with. I feel like I have better shooters in the regular rotation and I feel like I have a better and more cohesive bench unit as well.


Good luck to AB and good matchup round one.

Damn, my 2 favorite players are on opposite teams so I can no longer be a homer :no:

I like the move of putting Hakeem and Battier on Chuck a lot. Charles would've ate Sampson and Amare up but other than maybe Russel and maybe KG, I'd say Hakeem is one of the best guys to throw at chuck defensively.

I wish Aboutbuckets had Petrovic instead of Gervin cause then I'd side with his team. Other than Kidd no one in the starting lineup can consistently knock down the 3 ...Maybe starting both Jkidd and Dwill could work as I don't trust Korver in extended minutes at all.

Nash in this series doesn't get killed as much as he would against most other teams defensively (another bad break for AB) and I give him the edge at pg, and I give the slight edge to wing play to MP Trey's squad as well with a deeper more versatile pool of players.

Buckets does have a better 4/5 combo but for my money it's not enough of an edge to tilt the scales in his advantage. MP Trey wins in 7 (Hakeem always beat Barkley in 7 :( :banghead:

[barkleynash]

last day of voting peeps before we go to the next round

[Gotterdammerung]

The adjustment of having Hakeem Olajuwon guard Charles Barkley does appear brilliant on the face of it, because in truth, he was a power forward who successfully masqueraded as a center. On top of being an unstoppable scorer who peaked over three seasons (1992-1995), his defense was even better. Not only was Hakeem insanely quick to the ball, he also had long arms and explosive hops. It's his incredible speed and dogged obsession to get a piece of every shot in his neighborhood.

However, Hakeem was subject to foul trouble precisely because of that, so he shouldn't be guarding a clever low post genius in Barkley the entire time. Perhaps in judicious spots. :pimp:

I like MP Trey's team over About Buckets, largely due to the fact that Nash and Amare can run and gun, and Sampson and Hakeem can play volleyball with interior shots all game long, and own the butcher shop.

[barkleynash]

However, Hakeem was subject to foul trouble precisely because of that, so he shouldn't be guarding a clever low post genius in Barkley the entire time. Perhaps in judicious spots. :pimp:

Good point. Perhaps he shouldn't guard Barkley the whole time he's out there but I don't see a problem with guarding him half the game. Tag teaming with Battier and then chucking Sampson or Amare on him for a few spot minutes here or there wouldn't hurt them that badly.

[barkleynash]

Just to let everyone know, no need to vote for yourself as that is implied the moment you post an argument for your team. However if one GM makes an argument and the other doesn't post anything then that will be used as a tie break (before the higher seed home court game 7 tie break)

[wally_world]

Iamgine and MP Trey for me

I believe Phil Jackson puts imagine's bigs in position to succeed over kshutt's frontline. Cooper can do a decent job on Oscar, and tho Logo will still get his, I don't see Bird (best player in the series) being stopped either. Pierce off the bench a huge plus for me too, as he can be inserted at SG to make Oscar/West work on the defensive end.

Similar teams, but AboutBuckets lacked some perimeter shooting, and i like the qualities MP Trey's bench players bring to the team.

[barkleynash]

Congrats to Team MP Trey and Team Kshutts for advancing to the 2nd Round! You 2 will be matched up against each other next and I'll post the link that series here as soon as it is up.

[barkleynash]

link to 2nd round: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10683015#post10683015