All Time Draft Round 1 Western Conference 2vs15 and 7vs10 [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

barkleynash

10-28-2014, 11:47 PM

VOTING IS OPEN TO EVERYONE. However, the requirement is that you have >100 post counts, and your account must be registered before Sept 14. Troll votes would not be taken into account (subjected to veto by the 3 commissioners).
Voting will end on Halloween at 11:59pm

Western Conference

#2 Team Kurple

PG: Chauncey Billups 05-06
SG: Ray Allen 00-01
SF: Grant Hill 96-97
PF: Bobby Jones 76-77
C: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 79-80

Bench: Kirk Hinrich 06-07
Allen Iverson 97-98
Tayshaun Prince 06-07
Chris Bosh 12-13
Mark Eaton

Coach: Larry Brown

VS

#15 Team Random Guy
http://insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10658016&postcount=57

PG/SG: Steph Curry 13-14
SG: Reggie Miller
SF/PF/PG: Lebron James 11-12
PF: Pau Gasol
C: Dwight Howard

Bench: Russell Westbrook
Carmelo Anthony
Al Horford
Omer Asik
Steve Kerr

Coach: Gregg Popovich

AND

#7 Team Wally
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10648548&postcount=1016 (team synopsis)

PG: Isiah Thomas 87-88
SG/PG: Joe Dumars 88-89
SF/SG: Clyde Drexler 91-92
C/PF: Bill Russell 61-62
C: Yao Ming 06-07

Bench: Jeremy Lin 11-12
Jason Terry 10-11
Xavier McDaniels 88-89
Robert Horry 97-98
Bill Laimbeer 88-89

Coach: Chuck Daley

VS

#10 Team Raiderfan
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10651048&postcount=1044

PG: Mookie Blaylock 96-97
SG/SF: Eddie Jones 97-98
SF/PF: Kevin Durant 13-14
PF/C: Anthony Davis 13-14
C: David Robinson 93-94

Bench: Terry Porter 90-91
Joe Johnson 04-05
Giannis Antetokounmpo 13-14
Detlef Schrempf 94-95
Tyson Chandler 10-11

Coach: Red Aurbach

Good luck to everyone! You may now start the debate.

Western Conference 6vs11 and 3vs14: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10665349#post10665349
Eastern Conference 1vs16 and 8vs9: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10664616#post10664616
Eastern Conference 5vs12 and 4vs13: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10664917#post10664917

Link back to the home playoff page: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10664321#post10664321

kshutts1

10-29-2014, 12:04 AM

I don't want to be totally final, but Kurple wins that matchup unless the other GM gives a pretty sweet breakdown. I have a plan if I were him, but I want to see what he does.

As for the Raider matchup... that will be fun.

kshutts1

10-29-2014, 12:12 AM

It feels so wrong to offer "insight" to a matchup where the GMs have not done a game plan.

That said, Wally's defensive juggernaut may have run in to the sole player they can't shut down. No one on their team has the length to deal with Durant. Dumars is much too small. Drexler is a decent size at 6'6... but then you remember Durant is 6'11. And better.

I'm assuming Russell will watch Davis, but DRob will abuse Yao's lack of lateral agility. Definitely a difficult test for Russell to keep the paint on lock.

Being totally honest, I think Wally needs to pull some tricks out of his hat. I did have Raider ranked higher, so maybe it's my personal bias, but I'll need some convincing.

I withhold the ability to change my vote for the next 24 hours (should be sufficient time to get all GMs to offer game plans), but it's currently a Kurple and Raider victory. And as strong as Wally's team is, I don't think it's that close in either case.

raiderfan19

10-29-2014, 12:25 AM

raiderfan19

10-29-2014, 12:28 AM

Sorry that was a little jumbled/rushed. Posted from my phone. If any clarification is needed let me know but I wanted to get an opening argument out there and I think this is a good matchup for me.

wally_world

10-29-2014, 03:14 AM

PLAYOFFS!!!

I'll state a few points about the matchup first, before moving on to counter the points brought up earlier

1) The most glaring advantage I have in this series is the playoff/championship experience. I believe I have one of the most playoff mileages in this tournament, and Team Raider is the distinct opposite. You cannot undermine the importance of winning because this is the playoffs afterall.

2) With the versatility of my bigs, Yao will probably see alot less minutes in this matchup. Laimbeer will be inserted as a starter to begin the game, and XMan will also see extended minutes as a KD-stopper.

Adjusted Rotations
Isiah 34mpg | Dumars 14mpg
Dumars 12mpg | Terry 20mpg | Drexler 16mpg
Drexler 18mpg | McDaniel 30mpg
Laimbeer 32mpg | Russell 4mpg | Horry 12mpg
Russell 34mpg | Yao 14mpg

XMan is the perfect defender to shut down KD with his length, quickness and physicality. Russell will have no problem guarding DRob, and Dumars locking down EJ.

Expect this be an extremely low scoring series, and when it comes down to roughing out a bucket, I like my championship proven guys grinding out the game for me.

3) My team prides itself on being a physically and psychologically intimidating defensive team, which is what I feel will give Team Raider's dynamic duo so much problems. Both KD and DRob have the reputation of being soft and guys like Laimbeer, XMan, Russell would be a nightmare matchup for them.

- Championship/Playoff Experience
- Physical and intimidating defense a nightmare matchup for KD/DRob
- Low scoring series, where Isiah/Russell will grind out a win better than the opposition

wally_world

10-29-2014, 03:39 AM

This is an interesting matchup, and the first thing id like to point out is that this kind of matchup is exactly why I drafted Mookie. In their career head to heads, Thomas shot 36.6% from the floor and 16.7% from 3 while avging only 16.0 ppg and 3.7 topg. I'll say it again Mookie is one of the best defensive PGs ever and we will take away his greatest offensive player. The next thing to mention is that this teams starting lineup lacks shooting which should allow my team to run wild trapping/hedging/helping and generally flying around all over the place. My original thought was to hide kd on Russell since he was a non threat but I don't think kd could box him out so we will stay true to the matchups at least to start possessions. That being said I want to reiterate how much his shooting hurts him against my lineup. Isiah shot 27% on 3s that year and even worse in the playoffs. Dumars regular season percentage looks good till you realize he only took 29 in the whole season. He was also 1-12 from deep in the playoffs. This stat is unfair to dumars because it starts in 94, but it's also important to realize that in their head to head matchups, dumars avged 12.7 ppg on 34.2% /34.0% shooting(and one of his highest scoring games was his next to last one when Eddie no longer needed to guard him) Eddies length gave him fits since he was also athletic enough to stay in front of him.

Getting to the frontcourt, Clyde is his best 3 pt shooter at 33.7% on a lot of attempts but that isn't exactly enough to keep us honest plus, that's not what he does best. Russell is the perfect guy to allow Davis to help block shots like he did tonight(I asked for this years version of him it's constantly updating but that guy is a monster who will score enough garbage buckets to keep Russell from being able to roam though I doubt either does much offensively against the other. Then we come to the problem area. Yao couldn't guard drob at all, and while he'd make a few jumpers/hooks I just don't see him giving the admiral anywhere near the problems that Robinson's combination of athleticism and faceup game would give him. One other thing Yao noticeably tired when he had to run. Drob was a gazelle. He ran all game without ever getting tired. I just see this as an ugly matchup where his team struggles to score and we ride drob to a series win. If he chooses to put Russell on drob, we give the ball to ad from 18 feet or have him and kd run pick and rolls(Yao is going to be in a bunch of Kevin Durant pick and rolls no matter who he's guarding) and watch the points pile up.

When he goes to the bench, his backup guards are exactly the kind of guards that porter and joe Johnson can bully. Also my backup guards can defend. His can't.

The entire premise of your argument is based on 1 on 1 matchups. Which is not how the game works. The h2h matchups are to be taken with a pinch of salt because I have alot of older guys who were out of the prime when those stats were recorded. As a matter of fact, none of the stats belong to the years I have chosen for my players.

Few things to note tho:
- Isiah played for the very defensive-minded Pistons who were all about slowing down the game and grinding it out. They never had enough offensive options around him which is why he never had a high FG%. Despite that, he still comes through for his team more often than not to carve out a win, which is all that matters. Not to mention the additional help he has on this team.

- The Pistons relied very little on the 3pt shot which is why Dumars attempted such a small volume. In his later years when he was tasked to shoot more, he remained a knock down shooter in the high-30s. He never improved his shooting, it was always there for him, and I have no reason to believe he cant be a 3pt shooter as the modern game requires.

- If Eddie Jones is guarding Dumars, will KD be guarding Clyde? If so Clyde automatically becomes my #1 option. How will KD respond to guarding Clyde while having to be the #1 guy on the offensive end for you?

As for your mismatch against Yao, I will reduce him to a bench role (which he wouldnt have a problem with given his nature) and have him come on against Tyson Chandler whom he'd absolutely destroy in short spurts. Laimbeer will limit the pick and roll game between KD/AD and his physicality would be a nightmare for the very light Davis.

Also, don't disregard the offensive ability of Russell (he put up 22ppg in the playoffs, a non-threat? :rolleyes: ) - he never scores in bunches because he doesn't have to, but he is a terrific playmaker in the high post and had 18ft range - perfect in a dynamic, unselfish offense like mine. Don't forget his work on the offensive glass.

raiderfan19

10-29-2014, 08:16 AM

Kd will guard xman when he's in the game, Clyde when all of your starters are in. Kd guards lebron all the time and it never hurts his game. Also I strongly disagree that x is the perfect kd defender. He was too short and not perimeter oriented enough to guard kd. Also given kds propensity for drawing fouls and x's physicality, it's very likely he'd be in foul trouble a lot. It's also important to note that by playing x more, you are killing your already bad spacing. The only perimeter player who can shoot that you have playing is terry for 20 minutes who terry porter or joe Johnson will just abuse.

As for what dumars did later in his career, you don't get that. You have a player who made 15 3s all year including the playoffs as your floor spacer.

If you change your starting lineup before the series even starts, you are ripe for an upset. I realize the game isn't a series of 1 v1 matchups, just showing that my guys ability to defend your guys, isn't just hypothetical. Mookie is the perfect Isiah defender and jones is the perfect drexler/dumars defender.

How exactly does laimbeer guard Davis?

As for Russell's offense, with either of my bigs guarding him, he's a non threat.

wally_world

10-29-2014, 01:45 PM

Kd guards lebron all the time and it never hurts his game.

Huge myth. I'm a big OKC fan and I watch alot of their games, and probably all the Heat/OKC games last season. OKC loves to start off with KD on LeBron because of matchups (never once worked well, puts KD in foul trouble and we always go into an early deficit). Once substitutions start coming in, Sefo and PJ3 (even Ibaka sometimes) are the primary defenders on LeBron. I clearly remember this because of how well PJ3 defends LeBron.

Also I strongly disagree that x is the perfect kd defender. He was too short and not perimeter oriented enough to guard kd. Also given kds propensity for drawing fouls and x's physicality, it's very likely he'd be in foul trouble a lot. It's also important to note that by playing x more, you are killing your already bad spacing. The only perimeter player who can shoot that you have playing is terry for 20 minutes who terry porter or joe Johnson will just abuse.

Another huge myth. Height is not a factor when it comes to defending KD. The best guys to guard KD have always been shorter, stronger players who can deny his penetration and force him into outside shots (see Tony Allen). XMan can do exactly that, muscle KD out of the paint (also where he draws most of his fouls at ever since refs stop giving him the rip-thru calls). X was also a smart defender who uses his fouls wisely, he's not one of those limited minutes defenders who throws his 6 fouls at the opposing best player (always played big minutes).

All this talk about my bad spacing, are you gonna leave my shooters open to help on defense then? I'll leave that up to the voters to decide whether leaving Dumars/Drexler or even Isiah or McDaniel open is a good idea. Don't forget I have Bill Laimbeer, one of the best 3pt shooting bigs out there too.

Also, you are way exaggerating how terrible Jet's defense is. He's a perfectly fine system defender (esp in my system), where Dumars/Isiah takes the better backcourt player. If your guys ever blow him by, there's just Bill Russell and Laimbeer behind :rolleyes:

If you change your starting lineup before the series even starts, you are ripe for an upset. I realize the game isn't a series of 1 v1 matchups, just showing that my guys ability to defend your guys, isn't just hypothetical. Mookie is the perfect Isiah defender and jones is the perfect drexler/dumars defender.

??? So adjusting your gameplan is a bad idea? I built my team on the premise of being versatile and adaptable. Exactly the reason why I have Laimbeer and McDaniel who bring missing elements in my starting lineup to the game.

Yeah I'm not denying they are capable defenders. But just like you have answers to some of my players, I have answers to yours. Except my team relies much more on having a dynamic offense whereas yours rely heavily on the shoulders of 2 players (very minimal playmaking). In low scoring matchups like this, that will be a HUGE disadvantage.

How exactly does laimbeer guard Davis?

As for Russell's offense, with either of my bigs guarding him, he's a non threat.

Wait, is Anthony Davis your team's savior now? How many shots is he even getting? Laimbeer is more than capable of guarding the inexperienced and much smaller AD. I see AD scoring in 2 ways here - pick and rolls and offensive rebounds. Laimbeer one of the best at hedging, and Russell's quickness down low won't make pick and rolls come easy. Also, your initiator is Durant who frankly isn't on that level yet (much better as a pop/roll man with Westbrook initiating). Laimbeer will also bully AD on the boards because of how well he boxes out.

On the other end, Laimbeer stretches out AD as your weakside shotblocker, or when he's in the paint, can box him out easily for offensive boards. Or are you gonna have DRob pulled away from the rim?

Glad you acknowledge the presence of Russell because it sure seemed like you don't expect to guard him much in your earlier arguments. If you truly think Russell is someone you can sag off then you're gonna get burned. With smart offense initiators like Isiah/Clyde, and the basketball IQ of Russell, your help defense will get broken down much more often than mine. Russell might not be the one finishing the play, but his decision making on offense makes him a very respectable offensive threat. Plus his knack for rebounds will clean the offensive glass if your defender goes away to help on the shot even for a split second.

wally_world

10-29-2014, 01:56 PM

To reiterate my points

1) Clear edge in playoff/championship experience for Team Wally. Russell/Isiah have came through for their teams in the clutch and shown much more leadership than KD/DRob. Honestly, this intangible trait is extremely vital. You're only as good as where your leaders take you.

2) Both teams have great defenders who can lock down their opponents. Team Raider relies heavily on KD/DRob (who are guarded by 2 elite defenders in XMan/Russell) with minimal playmaking, whereas Team Wally relies on dynamic offense with the best decision makers in the likes of Isiah/Clyde/Russell.

3) Huge edge on toughness, which will be vital in a physical low scoring series. Russell, Laimbeer, XMan will bully the soft frontline of KD, AD, DRob, which will disintegrate his entire team.

raiderfan19

10-29-2014, 05:23 PM

Every "great defender" you have is at a pretty big size disadvantage.

How are you stopping kd pick and rolls? Russel is great but we are gonna mostly run pick and rolls at your other big(no matter who it is)

As for jet yes he was terrible defensively but that wasn't even my point . Porter used his size and strength to bully john Stockton. How does jet stop that?

As for my defense versus your shooters. I'm not saying we will just ignore them completely and leave them alone. What I am saying is the fact that you don't have a good let alone great shooter allows my extremely athletic team to hedge and help while not ever being effected by the gravity that elite shooters have. We don't have to leave them alone but we don't have to be concerned about every inch of airspace we give them either. We aren't gonna help off Russ much because we know we to stay connected to him for rebounding purposes. My team is always going to have at least 3 and at times 4 shooters who range from good to elite. Schrempf, Johnson, Durant and porter are elite shooters. And yes if need be we will give ad the ball 18 feet from the basket and tell him to abuse laimbeer off the dribble/or run kd/ad pick and rolls.

As for playmaking I'm not nearly as lacking as you seem to think. Drob and durant, my two primary scorers avged over 10 assists per game between them. That's elite for 30 ppg scoring non guards. Throw in my PGs, Eddie, jones and schrempfs passing and I'm fine with this matchup.

Finally I can't stress the size disadvantage enough. Whomever is guarding kd is at at least a 4 inch and sometimes much greater height disadvantage. Dumars is 3+inches shorter than jones and even more shorter than Johnson. Same thing applies to porter against your backup PGs. Even drob is much bigger than russel(though he'd be fine) also if any coach knows how to deal with Russell, it'd be red.

kshutts1

10-29-2014, 06:26 PM

My official votes..

Kurple. Even if his team wasn't nasty, the other team would shoot themselves in the foot.

And Raider. Wally defended his team amazingly well. He did a much better job than Raider did. But I just think Raider's team is better, even if he's not able to write about it as eloquently.
The length and quickness and general athleticism is huge, mostly because Wally's team just.. can't shoot. He can sag off.. go under screens, etc, because he's long and athletic enough to recover. The defense will be so much easier to run on that virtue alone. Then if there's an opportunity to run.. look out. And in the half court sets, Raider's far superior shooting wins out.

raiderfan19

10-29-2014, 06:38 PM

It's a little harder for me to do this on a cell phone. If need be I'll make better/more eloquent arguments on my comp later when I have time. But to make everything into bullet points like he did.

1. His best player consistently got locked down by the guy I'll have guarding him. To the tune of a career 36/17 shooting percentage against him with 3.7 topg and only 16.0 ppg. This hurts his playmaking argument a lot because his best playmaker is neutered.

2. This is a piggyback on point 1, but I'll reiterate it here. We've both have outstanding defensive teams. The difference is my team specifically matches up well with his best scorers. My one defensive weakness hypothetically would be a team with 2 burly post scorers who can both shoot enough/are athletic enough to play together and keep the floor spaced but allow one of them to use his strength to overpower Davis. He doesn't have that. On the other hand his one defensive weakness is a big wing scorer who can both shoot and drive. I happen to have literally the worst matchup for his defense in the whole draft in Durant.

3. Shooting. Quite simply I have a ton of it and he has none. This is a huge problem and one that also puts a damper on his playmaking. I don't think it's outlandish to say that I have the best combination of length and athleticism in the draft. You know what that combination does? It makes every inch of space count on offense. Even if his great playmaker(he really only has one despite his decision to include dumars and Clyde) create small openings, he doesn't have the shooters to take advantage of it. I do.

wally_world

10-29-2014, 07:03 PM

How are you stopping kd pick and rolls? Russel is great but we are gonna mostly run pick and rolls at your other big(no matter who it is)

Not the least worried about a KD/AD pick and roll, if that is indeed your go-to-move. Laimbeer (and Horry for short stints) are both perfectly capable of guarding the pick and roll. McDaniel is a long and strong defender to fight through the screens as well against KD who isn't even a great PnR initiator. Plus I have the greatest defensive presence ever protecting the paint.

As for jet yes he was terrible defensively but that wasn't even my point . Porter used his size and strength to bully john Stockton. How does jet stop that?

If that's your winning formula, you're in trouble. Go ahead, let Porter be your team's offense initiator and let him go 1 on 1 against his defender :oldlol:

As for my defense versus your shooters. I'm not saying we will just ignore them completely and leave them alone. What I am saying is the fact that you don't have a good let alone great shooter allows my extremely athletic team to hedge and help while not ever being effected by the gravity that elite shooters have. We don't have to leave them alone but we don't have to be concerned about every inch of airspace we give them either.

Fair enough. But my team's offense is much more than a couple of screen and rolls (which seems like your team's go-to-move). With smart initiators like Isiah/Drexler/Russell I wouldn't need to rely on just screens to get the ball moving. Even if my guys aren't shooting when you go under (Dumars/Drexler will definitely pull up, i'll put my money on them making it), they are crafty enough to blow by with that extra 2-3 steps of momentum they can gain on their defenders.

Tho you can expect more of giving the ball to Russell in the high post, and have Laimbeer set off-ball picks with Drexler/Isiah cutting into the paint and Dumars spotting up weak side. I trust the passing and basketball IQ of my team to break down your defense rather than just physical tools.

We aren't gonna help off Russ much because we know we to stay connected to him for rebounding purposes.

Hmmm, differs from what you said earlier ain't it? I quote "Russell is the perfect guy to allow Davis to help block shots like he did tonight"

"If you change your starting lineup before the series even starts, you are ripe for an upset." - Raiderfan

Now if your team is changing game plans MID-GAME, what does that say about your team? :oldlol:

As for playmaking I'm not nearly as lacking as you seem to think. Drob and durant, my two primary scorers avged over 10 assists per game between them. That's elite for 30 ppg scoring non guards. Throw in my PGs, Eddie, jones and schrempfs passing and I'm fine with this matchup.

That was my point. Taking your main 2 guys out of the game and your team is completely broken down. Your PGs are under-average, especially against these competition. Eddie Jones was alot of things, but a playmaker definitely isn't one. Schrempf is an alright passer, but nowhere near the type that can you can run an offense through.

Finally I can't stress the size disadvantage enough. Whomever is guarding kd is at at least a 4 inch and sometimes much greater height disadvantage. Dumars is 3+inches shorter than jones and even more shorter than Johnson. Same thing applies to porter against your backup PGs. Even drob is much bigger than russel(though he'd be fine) also if any coach knows how to deal with Russell, it'd be red.

Size disadvantage? Do you even realise how skinny/weak (in terms of strength) your team is? If you meant height, you can stress it all you want, but the fact is it's not a difference maker. Russell dominated his taller opponents, Isiah is the best little guard to play the game, Tony Allen is 6'4" and had no problem guarding KD. Dumars contained the bigger/taller MJ but all of a sudden Eddie Jones is a problem?

Size isn't nearly as big an issue as physicality, where my team completely trounces yours.

Gotterdammerung

10-29-2014, 07:05 PM

wally_world

10-29-2014, 07:20 PM

1. His best player consistently got locked down by the guy I'll have guarding him. To the tune of a career 36/17 shooting percentage against him with 3.7 topg and only 16.0 ppg. This hurts his playmaking argument a lot because his best playmaker is neutered.

Funny how you talk about PLAYMAKING but leave out the 9.4 assists Isiah racks up? Also, the version of Isiah I picked was playing before Mookie was even drafted. Most of those stats were with an old and ailing Isiah and Mook entering his prime. Our players are year specific, not career.

2. This is a piggyback on point 1, but I'll reiterate it here. We've both have outstanding defensive teams. The difference is my team specifically matches up well with his best scorers. My one defensive weakness hypothetically would be a team with 2 burly post scorers who can both shoot enough/are athletic enough to play together and keep the floor spaced but allow one of them to use his strength to overpower Davis. He doesn't have that. On the other hand his one defensive weakness is a big wing scorer who can both shoot and drive. I happen to have literally the worst matchup for his defense in the whole draft in Durant.

If you're gonna completely ignore all the points i brought up on how physical/grounded defenders who can keep KD on the perimeter (Xavier McDaniel) will keep him in check, then alright, you're absolutely right lol.

No the difference is, when your defense sets in on my key players, we rely on great passing in the TEAM and high basketball IQ to make plays. When my defense sets in on KD and DRob, your team has no other playmakers. The offense completely shuts down.

3. Shooting. Quite simply I have a ton of it and he has none. This is a huge problem and one that also puts a damper on his playmaking. I don't think it's outlandish to say that I have the best combination of length and athleticism in the draft. You know what that combination does? It makes every inch of space count on offense. Even if his great playmaker(he really only has one despite his decision to include dumars and Clyde) create small openings, he doesn't have the shooters to take advantage of it. I do.

If Dumars/Drexler aren't considered great playmakers, then I think it is safe to say your team has absolutely no great playmakers. Don't leave out Russell too. That's 4 high IQ willing passers who could initiate the offense.

My shooters tho not great, are perfectly capable for filling their roles. Dumars/Drexler/Laimbeer can all hit the 3 (we'll leave that up to the voters to agree/disagree upon). You can have all the great shooting in the world, but what's the point when you don't have the creators to get them the ball?

wally_world

10-29-2014, 07:22 PM

Had Wally drafted a legitimate power forward, like Pettit or the young Spencer Haywood or Elvin Hayes, he would match up better with Raider Fan. Instead he has to try and start both Yao and Russell. Then try to justify their roles at the risk of compromising his team.

As if Bill Russell can't play center. :biggums:

Raiderfan over Wally.

I'll hold off on the other matchup.

If you read any of my arguments you'd know I'm starting Laimbeer over Yao (who will see 14mpg this series) this matchup. I strongly urge you to read through the points being brought up.

Funny thing is, I haven't once talk about justifying either Russell's or Yao's role when playing with each other.

raiderfan19

10-29-2014, 07:32 PM

How are you counting Clyde and Russell as initiators and then saying I lack distributors??? You realize kd and drob at least equal them as passers/creators right???

wally_world

10-29-2014, 07:34 PM

How are you counting Clyde and Russell as initiators and then saying I lack distributors??? You realize kd and drob at least equal them as passers/creators right???

I quote what i said "When my defense sets in on KD and DRob, your team has no other playmakers."

Gotterdammerung

10-29-2014, 07:43 PM

If you read any of my arguments you'd know I'm starting Laimbeer over Yao (who will see 14mpg this series) this matchup. I strongly urge you to read through the points being brought up.

Funny thing is, I haven't once talk about justifying either Russell's or Yao's role when playing with each other.:coleman:
Still doesn't address the problem.
Bill Laimbeer was a center. The Pistons surrounded him with legitimate power forwards like Mahorn and Edwards. A legitimate power forward that can score is more use to your team than another center unless you were facing a team starting two centers. As it is, your lack of flexibility is intractable.

wally_world

10-29-2014, 07:53 PM

:coleman:
Still doesn't address the problem.
Bill Laimbeer was a center. The Pistons surrounded him with legitimate power forwards like Mahorn and Edwards. A legitimate power forward that can score is more use to your team than another center unless you were facing a team starting two centers. As it is, your lack of flexibility is intractable.

Not that it really matters, but how were Mahorn and especially Edwards not Centers? Laimbeer always played the role of a PF offensively on those Piston teams (unless Salley is in the game).

What exactly is the "problem"? Too crowded in the paint? Laimbeer always roamed the perimeter on offense, and Russell works in the high post. Lack of versatility defensively? Russell quick enough to guard PFs, Laimbeer not immobile from the paint as well. What flexibility do I need? I truly believe Russell/Laimbeer/Yao cover all I need from the big men positions.

Sure a true PF like a Pettit could help my team more, but is that a big enough reason for my team to drop this matchup?

Juges8932

10-29-2014, 07:55 PM

I choose Random Guy in the first matchup. I like both teams a lot, but I really like RG's make up. You've got freaking Curry and Miller on the perimeter, with Gasol's versatility to stretch the floor, post up, or pass. The lanes LBJ would have to drive down to create, finish, or do whatever he wanted to would be so big you could drive a bus through there. Dwight is pretty worthless offensively and going against Kareem would not help, but with the floor spaced so much and LBJ driving, he would get set up for some easy baskets I would imagine. I probably like Kurple's depth better overall and I think his team could also score quite easily with Hill, KAJ, and Allen (a three-pronged attack). I don't think anybody on RG's team will be stopping KAJ or Hill, but Dwight/Pau could present some double-teams on KAJ as Bobby Jones is just not going to be that much of a threat. So really, just too much spacing for LBJ to work with where the shooters will make them pay if they collapse because he has 3 shooters he can kick it out to or if KAJ has to rotate, lob it up to Dwight. I think on a pure ranking of the players individually all time, Kurple would win, but I think this is a case of the whole being greater than the sum of its part in RG's case.

I can't decide in the second matchup. I'm leaning Raiderfan due to the size/athleticism overall, but I like Wally's depth more.

Gotterdammerung

10-29-2014, 09:12 PM

Not that it really matters, but how were Mahorn and especially Edwards not Centers? Laimbeer always played the role of a PF offensively on those Piston teams (unless Salley is in the game).

What exactly is the "problem"? Too crowded in the paint? Laimbeer always roamed the perimeter on offense, and Russell works in the high post. Lack of versatility defensively? Russell quick enough to guard PFs, Laimbeer not immobile from the paint as well. What flexibility do I need? I truly believe Russell/Laimbeer/Yao cover all I need from the big men positions.

Sure a true PF like a Pettit could help my team more, but is that a big enough reason for my team to drop this matchup?
The legitimate power forward can score consistently, forcing Raiderfan to adjust his game plan. Your adjustment will not affect his game plan in the slightest.

Also I didn't want to just repeat the reasons others cited - this one is another reason.
You do have the better bench, but if I was building around Russell I'd pick more mobile guys that had reliable low post scoring as well as a mid range option to loosen up the interior.
Laimbeer was a solid defender, but at the center position. He can't keep up with smaller and quicker forwards like Davis, much less grab them in order to muscle them around. Sure he will be on the perimeter, but that takes away from his strength as a rebounder. The Detroit Pistons had low post scorers galore in Mahorn, Dantley, Edwards with that turnaround, etc. You have at best Russell in the high post as an offensive hub for cutters and jump shooters off picks. :no:

raiderfan19

10-29-2014, 09:48 PM

Russel was a great defender and everything but your reasoning doesn't really work. If xman is in the game, one of drexler or dumars is out in which case Eddie jones does a better job defending either of them than xman does on Durant, meaning by your reasoning they'd no longer count. As great as Russell was, he's an easier cover for drob then drob is for him. So... Again he wouldn't count by your logic. Soooo where is all this playmaking coming from?

barkleynash

10-30-2014, 01:30 AM

Very fun arguments so far in this series. Very good points on both sides.

I don't see lack of shooting to be an issue for Wally's team, especially when he starts Laimbeer and I don't buy into Mookie being able to stop a prime Isiah Thomas (might slow him down a bit but keep in mind Isiah always elevated his play in the playoffs.) For me the backcourt is a big advantage for Wally's squad.
KD has a sizeable edge on Drexler which about makes up for the backcourt difference. I really like AD and he'd get the better of Laimbeer but I also see Russell consistently outplaying the Admiral. The bench is fairly even with Wally having nicer bigs and Raider the nicer guards (Ignoring both Giannis and Linsanity and calling McDaniels and Schrempf a wash)

To tip the scales I favour the championship pedigree and superior chemistry that Wally's bad boys bring. Very good matchup but when it's close like this you gotta go with the known winners. Wally in 7 as Thomas hits the go ahead 3 in the waning moments while playing through a severely sprained ankle...

barkleynash

10-30-2014, 01:43 AM

In the Kurple vs Random matchup I have Kurple's squad coming out on top.

KAJ would own Howard, really bad. Think back to Hakeem schooling a young Shaq in the finals. Now multiply that by 3 or 4 to see what would happen. Howard would get a nice dunk in here or there and get his fair share of rebounds but would absolutely have no answers for the Sky Hook!

Lebron gets the better of Prime Hill but it's not as big of a landslide as the center matchup. Guard play is about even. Gasol is a better talent than Jones but wasn't a great fit with Howard when they played together so I'm downgrading that matchup to a wash.

Both benches are loaded with talent (too much in my eyes.) And neither tip the scales I one direction or the other...Still wish he went all in small ball and started Lebron and Melo together!

For me as I mentioned above the KAJ vs Howard matchup is what gets the Kurple the W.

wally_world

10-30-2014, 03:14 AM

The legitimate power forward can score consistently, forcing Raiderfan to adjust his game plan. Your adjustment will not affect his game plan in the slightest.

Also I didn't want to just repeat the reasons others cited - this one is another reason.
You do have the better bench, but if I was building around Russell I'd pick more mobile guys that had reliable low post scoring as well as a mid range option to loosen up the interior.

A little contradicting because my role for Yao is exactly that - reliable scoring (low post scoring, midrange game). Yet you found that pairing to be an issue, so I really don't know what you're expecting. You realise a player's "listed position" don't mean anything right? Why is Laimbeer/Yao a bad pairing beside Russell? Because they are listed as Centers? They bring exactly what I want to the table, one stretches the floor so Russell works inside, one to work the high-low with Russell.

And how exactly does having a low post scorer affect his game plan? His game plan is to help on my PF, and in this case, having a stretch big like Laimbeer to pull his help defense is the perfect counter. :confusedshrug:

The Detroit Pistons had low post scorers galore in Mahorn, Dantley, Edwards with that turnaround, etc. You have at best Russell in the high post as an offensive hub for cutters and jump shooters off picks.

If you honestly think Mahorn/Edwards are better low post scorers than Bill Russell then I see no point arguing with you because you simply do not respect Russell.

Russel was a great defender and everything but your reasoning doesn't really work. If xman is in the game, one of drexler or dumars is out in which case Eddie jones does a better job defending either of them than xman does on Durant, meaning by your reasoning they'd no longer count. As great as Russell was, he's an easier cover for drob then drob is for him. So... Again he wouldn't count by your logic. Soooo where is all this playmaking coming from?

Isiah, Dumars/Drexler, Russell were all superior playmakers to Durant and DRob. Firstly, having a true floor general to set the offense gives me a huge edge in playmaking. Add the fact that i have much more options in the offensive gameplan (Russell high post, Isiah dribble penetration, Dumars working with screens, Drexler one of the most creative creators off the dribble/cut, Russell dribble hand-offs) and my offense is times more dynamic than yours, which relies on KD/DRob doing not just the scoring, but the playmaking.

raiderfan19

10-30-2014, 08:56 AM

A little contradicting because my role for Yao is exactly that - reliable scoring (low post scoring, midrange game). Yet you found that pairing to be an issue, so I really don't know what you're expecting. You realise a player's "listed position" don't mean anything right? Why is Laimbeer/Yao a bad pairing beside Russell? Because they are listed as Centers? They bring exactly what I want to the table, one stretches the floor so Russell works inside, one to work the high-low with Russell.

And how exactly does having a low post scorer affect his game plan? His game plan is to help on my PF, and in this case, having a stretch big like Laimbeer to pull his help defense is the perfect counter. :confusedshrug:

If you honestly think Mahorn/Edwards are better low post scorers than Bill Russell then I see no point arguing with you because you simply do not respect Russell.

Isiah, Dumars/Drexler, Russell were all superior playmakers to Durant and DRob. Firstly, having a true floor general to set the offense gives me a huge edge in playmaking. Add the fact that i have much more options in the offensive gameplan (Russell high post, Isiah dribble penetration, Dumars working with screens, Drexler one of the most creative creators off the dribble/cut, Russell dribble hand-offs) and my offense is times more dynamic than yours, which relies on KD/DRob doing not just the scoring, but the playmaking.
Every player except ad on my team is a solid playmaker, drob was light years better than Russell in the high post.(that's not even arguable) Mookie was a ten assist guy.

How Dow you not a see a team with only one guy who can shoot, (laimbeer) shooting as a problem.

The version of dumars he took couldn't shoot threes. Neither could Thomas. Drexler was a 33.7% 3pt shooter. If you don't see his lack of shooting as a problem, you are blind.

kurple

10-30-2014, 10:11 AM

i would hack a Howard whenever Curry would get really hot from 3.

wally_world

10-30-2014, 11:28 AM

Every player except ad on my team is a solid playmaker, drob was light years better than Russell in the high post.(that's not even arguable) Mookie was a ten assist guy.

How Dow you not a see a team with only one guy who can shoot, (laimbeer) shooting as a problem.

The version of dumars he took couldn't shoot threes. Neither could Thomas. Drexler was a 33.7% 3pt shooter. If you don't see his lack of shooting as a problem, you are blind.

Seriously? You think Eddie Jones is a solid playmaker? Way to inflate Mookie's stats too. He averaged 5+apg in 39mpg, under average for a regular PG, much less the quality of players we are talking about here in an all-time draft. DRob light years better than Russell in the high post, unarguable? Now that just makes you look shallow.

The trend of 3pt shooting only picked up in the 00s (legal zone defense). Just because the players didnt attempt many in the past, it didnt mean they couldnt shoot. There was just less of a need, and 3pt shots were less effective against man-to-man coverage. Fact is, Dumars/Drexler both had 3pt range and will knock it down given the space. You can keep claiming Dumars/Drexler/Isiah can't shoot, we'll let the voters decide whether spacing is an issue with a Isiah/Dumars/Drexler/Laimbeer/Russell lineup.

KobesFinger

10-30-2014, 01:55 PM

I'll go Kurple and Raider.

In the Kurple match-up I'm not sure LeBron can play in the Pop system. He wasn't able to get it done sharing ball handling duties with Wade, and reduced Bosh to a jumpshooter because he needed the space to drive. Dwight Howard has no mid-range game, and Gasol complained several times when MDA favoured Dwight down low over himself. And Kareem >> Dwight.

In the Raider match-up, I think the athletcism of his front court will wear down Wally's team too much. Wally has to immediately put one of his best defenders in Yao on the bench for long periods of time because he isn't mobile enough to stay with D-Rob. I also think his bench back-court would get shredded. Sorry Wally, gotta give it to Raider.

raiderfan19

10-30-2014, 02:01 PM

I really thought I had a different year for Mookie. My fault.

As for your shooting lets also point out that laimbeer isn't exactly dirk or love. He made 30 3s on roughly 35% 3 pt shooting that year. Like I said you have nooooo spacing

To put your spacing in context, your starting lineup is 191/574 which comes out to 33%. And 43/165 in the playoffs for a 26%

wally_world

10-30-2014, 05:32 PM

I hope voters look more into the intangibles, rather than just physical traits and elements of our teams. If this were a numbers game or a game about being taller/bigger/stronger, I wouldn't have picked guys like Isiah Thomas or Bill Russell - players who win with their hearts and minds. Won't be debating about the matchup anymore, I'll let the voters decide.

raiderfan19

10-30-2014, 08:29 PM

I officially vote for myself and kurple obviously

barkleynash

10-31-2014, 12:56 AM

last day of voting peeps before we go to the next round

Gotterdammerung

10-31-2014, 02:35 AM

A little contradicting because my role for Yao is exactly that - reliable scoring (low post scoring, midrange game). Yet you found that pairing to be an issue, so I really don't know what you're expecting.
There's no contradiction. You are starting two centers, whether it's Yao or Laimbeer with Russell.

My contention is that they're effective versus centers. Russell can control David Robinson easily, largely because Robinson wasn't a strong low post center, but more of a high post threat.

Now, you have Laimbeer trying (emphasis on the "try" part) to guard the quick and svelte Anthony Davis. It'll work if your offense slows down the game (predicated by a superior point guard) and walk the ball up the floor each possession. You'll get in trouble if you try to switch Laimbeer on the ultra-athletic Robinson instead.

If you actually watched Laimbeer play, you'd know that his weakness was that he couldn't block shots or keep up with any quick big that could face up and go, but made up for it by being a cheap shot artist.

You realise a player's "listed position" don't mean anything right? Why is Laimbeer/Yao a bad pairing beside Russell? Because they are listed as Centers? They bring exactly what I want to the table, one stretches the floor so Russell works inside, one to work the high-low with Russell.

Nope. Laimbeer was no modern "stretch four." He was a center who bullied weaker centers, and pulled better ones away from his superior teammates from the low post. You don't have a legitimate low post guy - be it a power forward like Elvin Hayes or Kevin Willis.

Saying you have one in Yao Ming is a non sequitur when you're not even starting him. :hammerhead:

If you honestly think Mahorn/Edwards are better low post scorers than Bill Russell then I see no point arguing with you because you simply do not respect Russell.
I didn't say that they were better on the box than Bill Russell, but perhaps English is not your first language.

Bill Russell was effective in the half court with an accurate left hook and scored mostly on put backs and a strange low flying, wrist-snapping shot that was partly a jumper and one handed shot. He averaged 15 ppg in his career, but you gotta understand he was one of the fastest centers ever, and that made the Celtics run a five man fast break. Many of his points came on dunks at the trail end of those breaks.

Now, kindly refrain from putting words in my mouth. :no:

wally_world

10-31-2014, 03:58 AM

Not gonna debate about the matchup anymore, but to clear up the air

There's no contradiction. You are starting two centers, whether it's Yao or Laimbeer with Russell.

My contention is that they're effective versus centers. Russell can control David Robinson easily, largely because Robinson wasn't a strong low post center, but more of a high post threat.

It is contradicting because you began your case for voting against me saying I should have drafted a legit PF over Yao, then go on to say "The legitimate power forward can score consistently, forcing Raiderfan to adjust his game plan.", and "if I was building around Russell I'd pick more mobile guys that had reliable low post scoring as well as a mid range option to loosen up the interior." which is exactly what Yao does.

In other words, you're just discriminating what they do on the court based on their listed position.

If the problem was defensively, Yao or Laimbeer would have problems keeping up with their more athletic counterparts, then yes, I would've agreed with you. But your rationale for why Laimbeer is a bad fit is because he can't score in the post, yet you dismiss Yao even though he's the post scorer I stagger Laimbeer with.

Now, you have Laimbeer trying (emphasis on the "try" part) to guard the quick and svelte Anthony Davis. It'll work if your offense slows down the game (predicated by a superior point guard) and walk the ball up the floor each possession. You'll get in trouble if you try to switch Laimbeer on the ultra-athletic Robinson instead.

If you actually watched Laimbeer play, you'd know that his weakness was that he couldn't block shots or keep up with any quick big that could face up and go, but made up for it by being a cheap shot artist.

Nope. Laimbeer was no modern "stretch four." He was a center who bullied weaker centers, and pulled better ones away from his superior teammates from the low post. You don't have a legitimate low post guy - be it a power forward like Elvin Hayes or Kevin Willis.

Saying you have one in Yao Ming is a non sequitur when you're not even starting him.

I have no problem with a mismatch against who is probably his worst offensive starter. You said it yourself, he makes up for his lack of shotblocking or quickness.

If he was indeed a center who bullied weaker centers, wouldn't he be able to push the skinny Anthony Davis around? Why does your mismatch only work one way and not the other?

I won't be starting Yao doesn't mean I won't be playing him. Also, I brought that up because you were hating on Yao, yet he brings exactly what you expect from a guy playing next to Bill Russell to the table (as mentioned earlier).

I didn't say that they were better on the box than Bill Russell, but perhaps English is not your first language.

Bill Russell was effective in the half court with an accurate left hook and scored mostly on put backs and a strange low flying, wrist-snapping shot that was partly a jumper and one handed shot. He averaged 15 ppg in his career, but you gotta understand he was one of the fastest centers ever, and that made the Celtics run a five man fast break. Many of his points came on dunks at the trail end of those breaks.

Now, kindly refrain from putting words in my mouth.

This was what you said earlier on:

"The Detroit Pistons had low post scorers galore in Mahorn, Dantley, Edwards with that turnaround, etc. You have at best Russell in the high post as an offensive hub for cutters and jump shooters off picks. "

I have, "at best" Russell, which clearly implies he does less than what of Mahorn etc. Even if Russell wasn't known for being a low-post scorer, he was clearly more capable than Mahorn and Edwards who were roleplayers at best. Perhaps the ability to infer and comprehend isn't your strongest suit.

kshutts1

10-31-2014, 07:38 AM

Wally, when considering the playmakers that Raider does, or does not, possess, keep in mind his guards off the bench... Johnson and Porter.

All in all, I'd say playmaking is pretty even.

As to your post about intangibles... It's not something I consider. I actually don't believe that "knowing how to win" matters that much. Reasoning is that.. these guys are world class athletes, and most of them have been competing against the best since they were in HS. When you compete against the best, no matter the age, you learn/know how to play/win. Maybe I'm super naive, and there is more to it than that...
That being said, there are varying degrees. And your team has more "heart" with Russell, Thomas, Dumars.. but don't discount Robinson, Durant, and then my opinion is that any great defender needs "heart", so you can also consider Chandler (lead that Mavs team), Mookie and Jones.

I'm a big fan of shooting/spacing, and that's ultimately why I voted against you in this matchup. And that's not changing. But you have done the best job defending your team, and I wish I could give you a "moral victory" for that. But regardless, great great job.