Coach Thibbs: "When Jordan was playing..."

[Dr.J4ever]

http://www.nba.com/2014/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/28/the-international-influence-mainbar/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt3a

A great article on the evolution of the "city game" into the world's game and the impact of internationals on the NBA.

I saw this interesting quote that could shed light on some of the debate on rules changes we were having here on ISH a couple months back..

""When Jordan was playing," Chicago coach Tom Thibodeau said, "if he was isolated at 12 feet or at the elbow, you had to keep your 'big' on the weak side. There was no way you could get him across the lane. Now that you can bring your big over to the strong side, elbow isolations become jump-shot plays. And there's usually four shooters on the floor, at a minimum, and some teams have five."

Feel free to disagree with one of the NBA's best defensive minds.

[Hoopz2332]

3ball is about to spam:oldlol:

[ralph_i_el]

Jordan Stans incoming

[ArbitraryWater]

somewhere an alarm is going off in dondadda's basement

[The_Pharcyde]

Damnnnnn I didn't know this!!!! No way is MJ the goat anymore
#lbj4lyfeeeee

[c5terror]

http://www.nba.com/2014/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/28/the-international-influence-mainbar/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt3a

A great article on the evolution of the "city game" into the world's game and the impact of internationals on the NBA.

I saw this interesting quote that could shed light on some of the debate on rules changes we were having here on ISH a couple months back..

""When Jordan was playing," Chicago coach Tom Thibodeau said, "if he was isolated at 12 feet or at the elbow, you had to keep your 'big' on the weak side. There was no way you could get him across the lane. Now that you can bring your big over to the strong side, elbow isolations become jump-shot plays. And there's usually four shooters on the floor, at a minimum, and some teams have five."

Feel free to disagree with one of the NBA's best defensive minds.

Wow didn't know that, i was overrating Jordan from the start, he should be outside top 20 because he's playing with this kinds of rule.

[Hoopz2332]

INB4 chest to chest.


:oldlol:

[Purch]

Makes sense.

Hand checking vs Zone rules have always been a give or take dynamic

[Nikola_]

Well i guess this drops him out of the top10 then

[WindmiLL]

3ball >>>>> Thibs on basketball. Nothing to see here.


INB4 chest to chest.

:applause:

[PJR]

It's an absolute fact that it's more difficult to score in today's NBA than it was back in the 90s.

All the rule changes from 2005 on were nothing more than to counter balance defensive systems like the aforementioned. It's all evened out now.

[Haymaker]

What's new? Rules change the game, there have been TONS of rules changes since MJ retired and the game is clearly not the same. Doesn't mean he couldn't play today. He would play different, that's for sure. But he would still dominate the game. Afterall, it was his mind/character/skills what made him who he is.

[3ball]

http://grantland.com/features/packing-paint-nba-defensive-strategy-forcing-coaches-rethink-their-offense/

“A lot of the defensive strategies you see now are a natural evolution from rule changes,” says Houston GM Daryl Morey, in reference to the league’s decision a decade ago to abandon illegal defense rules and essentially allow zone defenses..

the new defensive strategies result from the rule changes, so the new defensive strategies only ensure that it remains equally hard to score under the new rules as it was under the old rules

[3ball]

One coach giving his opinion on one specific type of play is not thread-worthy.

What today's defenses gain in one area, they lose in another area - this has always been the league's intention with any rule change they've made over the years... The league would never change the rules so that one side (the offense or the defense) has a sudden big advantage over the other.

This is why league-wide offensive rating (points-per-possession) remains stable over time, which PROVES that it is no harder to score today than it was 30 years ago.

Teams score the same points-per-possession today as they did 30 years ago, because as the defense gains an advantage in one area (being able to play quasi-zones), they lose something in another area (having to play those zones while not entering the paint for more than 3 seconds and not being able to hand-check/be physical anymore).

So today's defensive strategies only ensure that the environment under the new rules where the defense has to guard more 3-pointers, stay out of the paint, and be less physical, remains just as hard to score in as the old environment where the defense only had to guard 2-pointers, COULD camp in the paint and could be much more physical.

If anyone disagrees with this, answer me one question: if it's harder to score, why has league-wide offensive rating remained stable over the years and the same as it was 30 years ago?

like, people don't understand that the reason the Spurs offense is so bomb and role players look like all-stars, is because the Spurs are the best itl at stretching and bending the NBA's rules better than anyone else.

they exploit the defensive 3 seconds rule and take advantage of the defense having to abide by this rule, better than any other team.

[3ball]

Today's defensive 3 seconds rule requires defenders to stay out of the lane, unless they are within "armslength" of an opponent.. http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html

The original rule from 1982 was different, and ALLOWED defenders to camp in the paint: (http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html)


1981-82
"Defender on post player is allowed in defensive three-second area (A post player is any player adjacent to paint)".

So just by substituting the rule's own parenthetical reference, the rule translates EXACTLY to: "Defender on player adjacent to the paint is allowed in defensive 3 second area."


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/b209aeddf6bfaaa9fcaed8eea3c72c65.gif


in this clip, Klay Thompson's dad (#43 in the middle of lane) would get a tech after 3 seconds in today's game because his man is out of "armslength".... but back then, he was legal because his man was "adjacent to the paint", which was the only requirement at the time - notice how there is no need for Thompson to tippy-toe in and out of the paint.


in previous eras, guys didn't have to worry about staying out of the lane or tippy-toeing - the 3 seconds rule was very simple back then: as long as their man was "adjacent to the paint", defenders could stay in the lane... so usually, they could camp in the lane for the entire possession because the paint is huge, and "adjacent to the paint" covers a ton of ground... Furthermore, "adjacent to the paint" could mean right next to the paint, a few feet outside the paint, or all the way out to the 3-point line - defenders routinely camped in the paint while their man was behind the 3-point line (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10695139&postcount=1).

contrastingly, today's rule makes sure defenders can physically touch their man to stay in the lane, by requiring defenders be within "armslength" of an opponent - since players that are outside, or "adjacent to the paint", are out of armslength to defenders inside the paint, players in today's game are not allowed to stay in the lane if their man is outside the paint.
.

[J Shuttlesworth]

3ball is about to spam:oldlol:
Nailed it

[Hoopz2332]

Nailed it


:oldlol:

[3ball]

.
Michael Jordan versus Reggie Lewis (starting SG vs. starting SG)


Jordan 41 points 1990... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=519CMlXJmTg&t=0m15s

Jordan 38 points 1988... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PTB13ZJIGE

Jordan 35 points 1990... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozZwNeK6chQ

Jordan 45 points 1990... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPNNdJLfKEg

Jordan 39 points 1991... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOHWXRw9UkU

Jordan 44 points 1992... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8S8cXV9E-Y
.

[Inactive]

3ball is about to spam

Nailed itHe's actually right about this though. Offensive efficiency has been pretty much the same since the 80s. The style of play has changed with the rules, but teams don't have a harder time scoring than they did in the past.

[Dro]

3ball is about to spam:oldlol:
:lol

[Nash]

One coach giving his opinion on one specific type of play is not thread-worthy.


but you given yours is?:kobe:

[DonDadda59]

""When Jordan was playing," Chicago coach Tom Thibodeau said, "if he was isolated at 12 feet or at the elbow, you had to keep your 'big' on the weak side. There was no way you could get him across the lane. Now that you can bring your big over to the strong side, elbow isolations become jump-shot plays. And there's usually four shooters on the floor, at a minimum, and some teams have five."

No offense, but what the f*ck is Thibs talking about? Seriously. Is he saying that teams never set their bigs to help on Jordan when he had the ball? This actually sounds plausible to people? :wtf:

[Inactive]

No offense, but what the f*ck is Thibs talking about? Seriously. Is he saying that teams never set their bigs to help on Jordan when he had the ball? This actually sounds plausible to people? :wtf:He's saying they were further out of position, so when they came over to help, they were too late to cut off his path to basket.

[DonDadda59]

He's saying they were further out of position, so when they came over to help, they were too late to cut off his path to basket.

Prime example of why that's bullshit:

http://i.minus.com/iHwd5KuplF3Ml.gif

Jordan had to beat 2 traps/doubles (including one where the Knicks sent their PF or one of their 'bigs' to cut off his baseline drive)... only for him to be met at the basket by a 7 ft shot blocker because there was no 3-sec rule.

And if you watch the whole possession, the Bulls had to beat a full court trap zone to even get the ball past half court:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=330HeLlv52U

So again... what the f*ck is Thibs talking about? :confusedshrug:

[navy]

ISH posters > Thibs in defensive basketball

[Akhenaten]

He's stating what seems to be obvious but truth is most touters of the superior physical 80's/90's don't understand.

The opportunities to get to the rim and finish off isolation plays are much more limited. A physical defender like say a GP being able to dig his hand/elbow into your hip vs a wall of of defenders strongside which is more effective in stopping an individual player from getting to the rim on drives?

The answer SHOULD be obvious, but some people are just stubborn and/or dense. This doesn't necessarily mean Jordan had it easier or his impact on the game from a scoring standpoint would be less today, just his numbers and efficiency.

37 ppg on 54% from a wing player is highly unlikely in this era, especially if that wing player is on a bad team that the defense does not have to respect like the 80's BUlls. The defensive rules are such that it is easier for the defense to force the player that initiates the play to pass as opposed to taking it all the way and finishing.

Jordan would still devastate defenses though by using the MIDDLE PICK AND ROLL. This is really the only way a player can create enough scoring opportunities at the rim to score on HIGH volume and HIGH efficiency (27-30+ ppg, 50+ FG. BY having two shooters in each corner and forcing the big to have to come out higher on the floor (or if he doesn't have a full head of steam towards him sitting in the paint) you can counter the defense being able to load up strong side.

Perfect example is 05-11 Wade, cat quick, super explosive, agile, great handle, great leaper of 1 or two feet, superb body control, great touch around the basket.

Jordan would post 05-11 Wade like seasons regularly in his prime in this era, except he would score 1-3 ppg more because of his superior, vertical jumpshooting and FT shooting.

Wade from 05-11 was 27/7/5 48%

Prime Jordan would be 29-30/6/6 51%

Peak 32/7/7 52%

[navy]

He's stating what seems to be obvious but truth is most touters of the superior physical 80's/90's don't understand.

The opportunities to get to the rim and finish off isolation plays are much more limited. A physical defender like say a GP being able to dig his hand/elbow into your hip vs a wall of of defenders strongside which is more effective in stopping an individual player from getting to the rim on drives?

The answer SHOULD be obvious, but some people are just stubborn and/or dense. This doesn't necessarily mean Jordan had it easier or his impact on the game from a scoring standpoint would be less today, just his numbers and efficiency.

37 ppg on 54% from a wing player is highly unlikely in this era, especially if that wing player is on a bad team that the defense does not have to respect like the 80's BUlls. The defensive rules are such that it is easier for the defense to force the player that initiates the play to pass as opposed to taking it all the way and finishing.

Jordan would still devastate defenses though by using the MIDDLE PICK AND ROLL. This is really the only way a player can create enough scoring opportunities at the rim to score on HIGH volume and HIGH efficiency (27-30+ ppg, 50+ FG. BY having two shooters in each corner and forcing the big to have to come out higher on the floor (or if he doesn't have a full head of steam towards him sitting in the paint) you can counter the defense being able to load up strong side.

Perfect example is 05-11 Wade, cat quick, super explosive, agile, great handle, great leaper of 1 or two feet, superb body control, great touch around the basket.

Jordan would post 05-11 Wade like seasons regularly in his prime in this era, except he would score 1-3 ppg more because of his superior, vertical jumpshooting and FT shooting.

Wade from 05-11 was 27/7/5 48%

Prime Jordan would be 29-30/6/6 51%

Peak 32/7/7 52%


:applause:

[DonDadda59]

ISH posters > Thibs in defensive basketball

Who's claiming that? I'm just asking for a thorough explanation from someone what exactly coach Thibs is trying to say. At face value, it doesn't make a lick of sense. But obviously since I'm missing the hidden genius of his statement, I'd love for someone to expand on it and maybe show me some game footage that backs it up.

I posted a clip that refutes the claims of someone's interpretations above... surely someone can do the same in reverse, yes? :confusedshrug:

[BIZARRO]

I watched a 36 year old run down Kobe Bryant basically get any look he wanted last night. He just missed most of the shots, but they were great looks for the most part.

A 27 year old MJ would have completely torched it. Hell, a prime Kobe Bryant would have torched it, and he still had 16 in the first half.

With what I watched last night (Harden getting 32), a 27 year old Mike would have had 40 without breaking a sweat. And easily could/would if he chose have had more. So it's a total GTFO to anyone who thinks prime MJ would have a tough time today.

[navy]

One coach giving his opinion on one specific type of play is not thread-worthy.


The best defensive mind in basketball at the moment is thread worthy. Cant say the same for all the shit you spam.

[Hoopz2332]

The best defensive mind in basketball at the moment is thread worthy. Cant say the same for all the shit you spam.

:oldlol: :applause:

[navy]

Prime example of why that's bullshit:

http://i.minus.com/iHwd5KupF3Ml.gif

Jordan had to beat 2 traps/doubles (including one where the Knicks sent their PF or one of their 'bigs' to cut off his baseline drive)... only for him to be met at the basket by a 7 ft shot blocker because there was no 3-sec rule.

And if you watch the whole possession, the Bulls had to beat a full court trap zone to even get the ball past half court:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=330HeLlv52U

So again... what the f*ck is Thibs talking about? :confusedshrug:

You explained it yourself.

The big would not have rotated to stop Jordan's drive because he would have already been there and Jordan would have been more likely to attempt a long jumper.

The traps would also be different since players can freely float without the initial appearance of even guarding another man. Unlike then where they would have to either hard trap or stay at home before it was too late.

[DonDadda59]

He's stating what seems to be obvious but truth is most touters of the superior physical 80's/90's don't understand.

The opportunities to get to the rim and finish off isolation plays are much more limited. A physical defender like say a GP being able to dig his hand/elbow into your hip vs a wall of of defenders strongside which is more effective in stopping an individual player from getting to the rim on drives?

The answer SHOULD be obvious, but some people are just stubborn and/or dense. This doesn't necessarily mean Jordan had it easier or his impact on the game from a scoring standpoint would be less today, just his numbers and efficiency.

37 ppg on 54% from a wing player is highly unlikely in this era, especially if that wing player is on a bad team that the defense does not have to respect like the 80's BUlls. The defensive rules are such that it is easier for the defense to force the player that initiates the play to pass as opposed to taking it all the way and finishing.

Jordan would still devastate defenses though by using the MIDDLE PICK AND ROLL. This is really the only way a player can create enough scoring opportunities at the rim to score on HIGH volume and HIGH efficiency (27-30+ ppg, 50+ FG. BY having two shooters in each corner and forcing the big to have to come out higher on the floor (or if he doesn't have a full head of steam towards him sitting in the paint) you can counter the defense being able to load up strong side.

Perfect example is 05-11 Wade, cat quick, super explosive, agile, great handle, great leaper of 1 or two feet, superb body control, great touch around the basket.

Jordan would post 05-11 Wade like seasons regularly in his prime in this era, except he would score 1-3 ppg more because of his superior, vertical jumpshooting and FT shooting.

Wade from 05-11 was 27/7/5 48%

Prime Jordan would be 29-30/6/6 51%

Peak 32/7/7 52%

Immediately after the rule changes Kobe (drafted in '96) had his career best scoring season, 35 PPG on his usual mid 40s shooting. Same exact thing happened to Iverson (drafted in '96)- had his career best year with 33 PPG on 45%, which was higher than usual. Durant just had 32 PPG on 50% shooting while playing for a championship contender.

And you think it's not possible for the GOAT in his prime to do better than that in an era where no one can touch him and he has unimpeded drives to the basket? :wtf:

[navy]

Immediately after the rule changes Kobe (drafted in '96) had his career best scoring season, 35 PPG on his usual mid 40s shooting. Same exact thing happened to Iverson (drafted in '96)- had his career best year with 33 PPG on 45%, which was higher than usual. Durant just had 32 PPG on 50% shooting while playing for a championship contender.

And you think it's not possible for the GOAT in his prime to do better than that in an era where no one can touch him and he has unimpeded drives to the basket? :wtf:

Kobe and Iverson were chuckers with bad squads, as was Durant (in a sense) because he had Westbrook out. Sure if Jordan played on teams like that he could put up big numbers, but the assumption Im assuming was that he wasnt.

Which is why he went to 30ppg , not higher. Which is still high scoring for any year.

[DonDadda59]

You explained it yourself.

The big would not have rotated to stop Jordan's drive because he would have already been there and Jordan would have been more likely to attempt a long jumper.

The traps would also be different since players can freely float without the initial appearance of even guarding another man. Unlike then where they would have to either hard trap or stay at home before it was too late.

No offense, but this is just nonsensical jibberish. Thibs says defenses could send their bigs across the lane to help... I show a clip where after Jordan beats one trap, the Knicks send one of their bigs to stunt his drive and force him to pass or shoot, Jordan maneuvers around that only to be met at the rim by a 7ft shot blocker who was unhindered by the 3-sec clear out rule.

So someone is going to have to show me some evidence of any defense that was superior to that. Show me this super secret perimeter player stopping defense that MJ never saw. One example will do.


Kobe and Iverson were chuckers with bad squads, as was Durant (in a sense) because he had Westbrook out. Sure if Jordan played on teams like that he could put up big numbers, but the assumption Im assuming was that he wasnt.

Which is why he went to 30ppg , not higher. Which is still high scoring for any year.

You don't find it odd that since the rule changes perimeter scoring has exploded collectively to all time records? When Jordan was winning scoring title in the 90s, he was usually the only perimeter guy in the top 5 scorers list (including when guys like Kobe and Iverson were in the league). In fact, check out who was doing the bulk of the scoring league wide when he left to play baseball.

Then flash forward to post '06... when was the last time a non perimeter player won the scoring title? When was the last time the top 5-10 scorers in the league weren't perimeter players.

But I'm supposed to believe it's harder now for those guys to get buckets?

Why?

[3ball]

ISH posters > Thibs in defensive basketball
It's a zero-sum game.

The rules have changed, so of course there are things you can do defensively in today's game that you couldn't do in previous eras.

But there are an equal number of things today's defenders can't do, that they could in previous eras (i.e. camp in the paint to AWAIT penetration as opposed to having to come help.... be much more physical).

This zero-sum game is evidenced in the NUMBERS - league-wide points-per-possession is the same as it was 30 years ago.

As a sidenote, I think Thibs is wrong here anyway and was probably just giving some red meat to an ignorant reporter - because it's clear as day - the defenders were already there AWAITING the penetrator, so there was no need to bring anyone over from the weak side anyway.

Like, I literally have 150 more of these showing the defender already there, waiting...

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Michael_Jordan_showing_the_of_ad54d908ed26a7b5c927 e16a93d1d5fd.gif

[sdot_thadon]

3ball >>>>> Thibs on basketball. Nothing to see here.


INB4 chest to chest.
Don't forget off ball passing and the most production ever produced by a producer....

[mehyaM24]

read the links i posted in an earlier thread from sports illustrated. byron scott, larry bird, and ainge specifically state today's defenses are tougher and the spacing is worse, especially in the paint.

also read the bit on colangelo and the advanced defenses of today e.g. zones and traps.


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-11-2014/C1vDMk.gif
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-11-2014/WmQJwT.gif
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-11-2014/0C1BeO.gif

^^^^ absolutely HORRIBLE defense. everything is weakly contested and the 3PT line isn't even defended.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoGmMx8Ejrw (here, we see that you cannot double team a perimeter player without the ball in their hands, which in turn makes it more difficult to play help defense, hence isolation defense. no consistent double teams or traps).

jordan would still be a good player today, but his shooting percentages would all be down.

[mehyaM24]

Kobe and Iverson were chuckers with bad squads, as was Durant (in a sense) because he had Westbrook out. Sure if Jordan played on teams like that he could put up big numbers, but the assumption Im assuming was that he wasnt.

Which is why he went to 30ppg , not higher. Which is still high scoring for any year.

just read what former players and coaches have to say about yesteryears defensive schemes:

Three key participants in the storied Lakers-Celtics rivalry who still hold lofty positions in the game—Bird, Byron Scott and Danny Ainge—talked to the Sporting News about the NBA, then and now. The three agree with the widely held perception that today’s players are superior athletically but less skilled in the basics. They admit defense is emphasized more today.
“All you have to do is look at the stats,” Bird says. “There’s better defense now."

“Offenses are a little more complex because the defenses have forced that,” Ainge says. “In the ’80s, defense was important but you didn’t do as much double-teaming, you didn’t do as much trapping. You played guys straight up."

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/stor...finals-meeting

[HurricaneKid]

I watched a 36 year old run down Kobe Bryant basically get any look he wanted last night. He just missed most of the shots, but they were great looks for the most part.


You are out of your mind.

Kobe made some nasty shots but if you think 22 foot fallaways are the looks he and the Lakers want they won't win a game this year. He took 12+ ill advised shots last night. Some went in. Most didn't.

[3ball]

but his (Jordan's) shooting percentages would all be down.


See, this is IMPOSSIBLE....

Today's players take an optimal shot allocation of 3-pointers, FT's and at-rim looks - it is well-known that this shot allocation maximizes shooting efficiency.

Contrastingly, mid-range shots are considered the toughest, lowest percentage shots and are avoided like the plague in today's game.

But in Jordan's era, contested mid-range shots were the biggest component of his shot allocation - So despite having a shot allocation that today would be considered horrific, Jordan shot very well.

In today's game, he would have a more optimal shot allocation like everyone else (threes, FT's and at-rim looks), so his shooting percentage would be much higher today.

The funny thing is that most fans don't understand that today's optimal shot allocation of 3-pointers, FT's and at-rim looks is only possible, and only came about because the spacing ALLOWED and facilitated this shot allocation... it wasn't some genius invention... just like the defensive strategies, the optimal shot allocation strategy resulted from the rule changes... this is fact - if you don't want to believe it, remain ignorant about the game.

[oarabbus]

3ball >>>>> Thibs on basketball. Nothing to see here.


INB4 chest to chest.

:roll:

MJ stans are having a complete meltdown it is glorious to watch

[dubeta]

:roll: :roll:

Jordan is a MYTH

[oarabbus]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-11-2014/C1vDMk.gif




Jordan dunking on an unathletic white guys, weak era confirmed... not impressed. Majerle isn't even playing defense and lol at the second guy.

yea I'm having fun with this

[mehyaM24]

Today's players take an optimal shot allocation of 3-pointers

this is EXACTLY why jordan would be shooting at a lower clip. the 3PT shot, while not a weakness of his, wasn't exactly his strong suit either. jordan would be more of a jump shooter in today's league. not just that, though. today's best defenses are around a 102 DRTG mark. on average, jordan shot ~40% against defenses with a 102 defensive rating or lower (look it up).

today he would be playing against defenses that actually trap, double team, zone CONSISTENTLY - hence a lower shooting percentage.

[3ball]

.
Jordan Scoring On Grant Hill Easily (barely having to dribble)


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/90f3bb58852041dc656673ed372d0522.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/b6cc4123a7160ec5b251d5e441d0f3c3.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/6953e0e1823b8a974598c1a79fb3f62b.gif

[DonDadda59]

just read what former players and coaches have to say about yesteryears defensive schemes:

I could easily post dozens of quotes from past and current players (ie, Kobe) and even the NBA officials responsible for the rule changes who say it's much easier now on players and the league is soft. So what? Can you make arguments for yourself?


here, we see that you cannot double team a perimeter player without the ball in their hands, which in turn makes it more difficult to play help defense

Several teams (most notably the Knicks) used the strategy of doubling Jordan off the ball regularly. Bruce Blitz had a video on his page showing many examples. I don't feel like looking it up but feel free.

[mehyaM24]

I could easily post dozens of quotes from past and current players (ie, Kobe) and even the NBA officials responsible for the rule changes who say it's much easier now on players and the league is soft. So what? Can you make arguments for yourself?

i get that jordan fans dont want to let go and are hung up on mythology, but the fact is, defenses are better now. a few months back, pj carlesimo stated that today's defensive and offensive schemes are lightyears ahead of the 70s, 80s and early 90s (srs). as in, they actually play it now. watching the ball get flipped and skipped around the perimeter, and inside and out, until somebody gets an open set-shot, that's all great and impressive in its way (see Spurs), but watching players having create enough space to get a shot off, and watching them sink jumpers under extreme, distress - that's the goods.

those player/coach quotes merely back my opinions. read the thread over again.

[Inactive]

just read what former players and coaches have to say about yesteryears defensive schemes: “All you have to do is look at the stats,” Bird says.
EFG% by decade:
2010s: .497
2000s: .484
1990s: .488
1980s: .491

TS% by decade:
2010s: .537
2000s: .529
1990s: .532
1980s: .537

Pace adjusted scoring:
2010s: 100.69
2000s: 99.6
1990s: 101.08
1980s: 101.06

[mehyaM24]

I could easily post dozens of quotes from past and current players (ie, Kobe) and even the NBA officials responsible for the rule changes who say it's much easier now on players and the league is soft. So what? Can you make arguments for yourself?



Several teams (most notably the Knicks) used the strategy of doubling Jordan off the ball regularly. Bruce Blitz had a video on his page showing many examples. I don't feel like looking it up but feel free.

no they didn't. it was against the rules. posting a few clips doesn't mean anything when i can just as easily (as i did) post videos of no help defense without the ball (listen to red kerr talk about doubling bird) and illegal defensive violations (the norm in that era).

call me jose raul capablanca....that right there is a checkmate.

[HurricaneKid]

It's a zero-sum game.

The rules have changed, so of course there are things you can do defensively in today's game that you couldn't do in previous eras.

But there are an equal number of things today's defenders can't do, that they could in previous eras (i.e. camp in the paint to AWAIT penetration as opposed to having to come help.... be much more physical).

This zero-sum game is evidenced in the NUMBERS - league-wide points-per-possession is the same as it was 30 years ago.

As a sidenote, I think Thibs is wrong here anyway and was probably just giving some red meat to an ignorant reporter - because it's clear as day - the defenders were already there AWAITING the penetrator, so there was no need to bring anyone over from the weak side anyway.

Like, I literally have 150 more of these showing the defender already there, waiting...

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Michael_Jordan_showing_the_of_ad54d908ed26a7b5c927 e16a93d1d5fd.gif


So wrong. Again.

Thibs completely revolutionized defense in the NBA. The mere suggestion that you think it is a possibility that you know more than he does is strikingly comical to those of us who know the game (and know you do not).

I can't imagine you even know what the defensive help rules were.

In today's NBA the average ISO manages to score ~.54 points/possession. That is WAY less than HALF the efficiency of a pass to a cutter. In MJs day the NBA NEEDED superstars and the rules made it FAR more difficult to defend them. ISO plays by the best players were among the most efficient usages of a possession. You CERTAINLY couldn't frontside help, etc. This is why when MJ was off scoring 37ppg 37 players averaged 20ppg or more. Kiki Vandegwe avg 27. Walter Davis was going for 24. Basketball was simple. Give the ball to your best player. Thats your best offense. Now the defense is allowed to provide strongside help, shade off lesser offensive players, etc. And individuals simply cannot beat defenses. Now offenses have to misdirect and attack defenses on the weakside. In 2012-13 the number of 20ppg scorers was all the way down to 9. There is just no argument to be made that English could score 29ppg in today's game. So yes, OF COURSE any player who had tremendous one on one skill has their impact magnified in that game over the game today.

[Burgz V2]

One coach giving his opinion on one specific type of play is not thread-worthy.


okay, so you're saying we should listen to you...over a guy every exec in the league would agree is the best defensive coach in the NBA?

k.

[mehyaM24]

Pace adjusted scoring:
2010s: 100.69
2000s: 99.6
1990s: 101.08
1980s: 101.06

you're making my point for me. without adjusting for pace, please list the league averages from the 80s and 90s.

[DonDadda59]

EFG% by decade:
2010s: .497
2000s: .484
1990s: .488
1980s: .491

TS% by decade:
2010s: .537
2000s: .529
1990s: .532
1980s: .537

Pace adjusted scoring:
2010s: 100.69
2000s: 99.6
1990s: 101.08
1980s: 101.06

Last season set the all time record for highest league wide eFG%. Perimeter players collectively are scoring more and shooting better than they have in past eras, by a large margin.


no they didn't. it was against the rules. posting a few clips doesn't mean anything when i can just as easily (as i did) post videos of no help defense without the ball (listen to red kerr talk about doubling bird) and illegal defensive violations (the norm in that era).

call me jose raul capablanca....that right there is a checkmate.

:lol

You're playing checkers son, and you're not even good at that. You're lucky I'm on my way out or I'd serve you up an Old Fashioned batch of Dadda's vintage homemade ether. Maybe when I get home tonight, we'll see.

[Sarcastic]

Did anyone actually read the article? They're talking about offenses changing, not defenses getting harder. It's more team oriented now. Jordan didn't have shooters all over the floor that he could pass to. He had to shoot the ball and carry his team. I thought it was pretty well known that Jordan did more for his team than anyone else?

[mehyaM24]

Last season set the all time record for highest league wide eFG%. Perimeter players collectively are scoring more and shooting better than they have in past eras, by a large margin.



:lol

You're playing checkers son, and you're not even good at that. You're lucky I'm on my way out or I'd serve you up an Old Fashioned batch of Dadda's vintage homemade ether. Maybe when I get home tonight, we'll see.

i've provided multiple gifs, league sources, data, and quotes from former players and coaches.

in short, you're in over your head.

[DonDadda59]

i've provided multiple gifs, league sources, data, and quotes from former players and coaches.

in short, you're in over your head.

:oldlol:

http://www.demotivationalposters.org/image/demotivational-poster/0810/tonight-you-demotivational-poster-1225107833.jpg

[ArbitraryWater]

"When Jordan was playing," Chicago coach Tom Thibodeau said, "if he was isolated at 12 feet or at the elbow, you had to keep your 'big' on the weak side. There was no way you could get him across the lane. Now that you can bring your big over to the strong side, elbow isolations become jump-shot plays. And there's usually four shooters on the floor, at a minimum, and some teams have five."

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-89e_1GDOtrI/UwplqEQLcfI/AAAAAAAADFE/ybhgOCaoBfQ/s1600/1.gif

[Inactive]

you're making my point for me. without adjusting for pace, please list the league averages from the 80s and 90s.How does that make your point? If teams scored the same amount per possession 30 years ago as they do today, how can you say today's defenses are better? Teams take more time to get a shot up than they did in the 80s, but they're just as likely to make it.

[FKAri]

prime Jordan transplanted to today's time would do worse but that is only because he molded his game for a different time. If he were brought up to play in this time he would've simply worked on different aspects of his game (3pt shooting etc) and eventually imo dominated just as much as he ever did.

[atljonesbro]

So wrong. Again.

Thibs completely revolutionized defense in the NBA. The mere suggestion that you think it is a possibility that you know more than he does is strikingly comical to those of us who know the game (and know you do not).

I can't imagine you even know what the defensive help rules were.

In today's NBA the average ISO manages to score ~.54 points/possession. That is WAY less than HALF the efficiency of a pass to a cutter. In MJs day the NBA NEEDED superstars and the rules made it FAR more difficult to defend them. ISO plays by the best players were among the most efficient usages of a possession. You CERTAINLY couldn't frontside help, etc. This is why when MJ was off scoring 37ppg 37 players averaged 20ppg or more. Kiki Vandegwe avg 27. Walter Davis was going for 24. Basketball was simple. Give the ball to your best player. Thats your best offense. Now the defense is allowed to provide strongside help, shade off lesser offensive players, etc. And individuals simply cannot beat defenses. Now offenses have to misdirect and attack defenses on the weakside. In 2012-13 the number of 20ppg scorers was all the way down to 9. There is just no argument to be made that English could score 29ppg in today's game. So yes, OF COURSE any player who had tremendous one on one skill has their impact magnified in that game over the game today.
Damn, you just shut all the MJ stans down with one post. :applause:

[Poetry]

“Jordan kept so much pressure on you in so many different ways, and it’s a different game now than it was,” Thibodeau said. “Back then, it was a lot more physical than it is today. But you couldn’t play zone defense the way you can today.

“Not being able to be as physical hurts you some. When Jordan was playing, you could play a lot more physical. He took a beating.

“Great players take beatings, but it was probably to an extreme in the ’90s.”

Thibodeau, October 2012


So in the above Thibs says it hurts you some defensively to not be able to be as physical.

But today you can play zone defense whenever you want (although stats show that teams only play it 1-10% of the time, which translates to single minutes), to help counter the lack of physical defense in today's modern game.

He says Jordan took beatings, beatings that were to "an extreme."

So would Jordan excel in today's less physical NBA?

[HurricaneKid]

Damn, you just shut all the MJ stans down with one post. :applause:

FWIW, I am a Jordsanstan. But thats no excuse to ignore reality.

[Da_Realist]

I watched a 36 year old run down Kobe Bryant basically get any look he wanted last night. He just missed most of the shots, but they were great looks for the most part.

A 27 year old MJ would have completely torched it. Hell, a prime Kobe Bryant would have torched it, and he still had 16 in the first half.

With what I watched last night (Harden getting 32), a 27 year old Mike would have had 40 without breaking a sweat. And easily could/would if he chose have had more. So it's a total GTFO to anyone who thinks prime MJ would have a tough time today.

:applause: Always good to see BIZZARO post

Umm... didn't Lebron just post 27 on 57% last year? 57%??? Mostly off layups, dunks and wide open jump shots?

The only way to really slow MJ down was by being physical with him. Play flag football with him and he'd torch you. Look at the scouting report the 96 Knicks had on him... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=4r28b4&s=5#.VFE4OsmwVvI --> BE PHYSICAL WITH HIM AT ALL TIMES

They took physicality out of the game. Moving your feet sounds great and is a fundamental way to play defense but if you can't grab and hold MJ in addition to that, you can't slow MJ down from getting whatever look he wanted.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Thibs is right but it doesn't mean MJ would be less effective now. Oh, and bigs still found a way to shadow Jordan in his more versatile / drive-centric game style from '87 - '93.

MJ from '96 - '98 scored almost exclusively on jumpers. His point about drives becoming jumpers. Which means MJ put up 30.4 ppg, 29.7 ppg, and 28.7 ppg from ages 33 - 35 on post up, elbow, and mid range jumpers. So an extra wall of defenders means nadda.

It's all how you perceive things. The influx of Europeans brought more ball movement, soft zones, and different set of rules to pretty up the game considering how ugly it got from the mid 90s until the mid 2000s.

One could consider this era harder to score in due to the zones. One could consider the 90's era more difficult to score in due to the increased physicality, and ability to be physical on the perimeter guarding your opponent.

More isolation play, with less room for help defense. But the man in front of you could physically impede you. That can't happen now.

There is no way prime MJ from '88 - '93, who was like a mix of prime Wade and prime Kobe wouldn't be torching this league.

Hell, Fadeaway Jordan from the 2nd three peat would be doing the SAME exact thing just to a lesser extent with his decline in physical ability, and versatility offensively.

People forget how much superior MJ was off the ball, slashing, and getting open compared to the ball in hand guys today of: LeBron, Kobe, Wade, and Durant. His catch - shoot game was better too. He could find the hole in the zone, cut to it, catch and shoot efficiently to obliterate defenses.

One of the abilities he learned in Dean Smith's 4 corner offense. Something a lot of the HS / AAU / One n Done cats have yet to implement into their arsenal.

[Akhenaten]

Last season set the all time record for highest league wide eFG%. Perimeter players collectively are scoring more and shooting better than they have in past eras, by a large margin.





Don't know if you're being disingenuous or if you genuinely just don't understand. I'm leaning towards the former, as it's apparent that you are purposely eschewing RAW stats.

EFG% is a statistic that's greatly boosted by 3 point shooting, compare raw numbers and the disparity become glaring. Points per possession again is effected largely by the 3 point shot, as there are less possessions today but WAY more 3 point shots made.

Scoring 125 points on 100 possessions is not the SAME as scoring 100 on 85 possessions even though Ortg /PPP says it is.

The pace didn't magically decrease, the league's emphasis on defense as a means of winning basketball games along with the rule changes that make defensive rotations shorter and the 1-4 position getting longer and more athletic has everything to do with that.

I mean guys like Kiki Vandeweghe and Alex English were scoring in the high 20's on remarkable efficiency (And I'm talking FG % not that math nerd TS% or EFG% crap). Every season you had dozens of wing players scoring on high volume and high efficiency, now you can count on two hands the number of players (not just wings) that are doing that.

[3ball]

EFG% is a statistic that's greatly boosted by 3 point shooting, compare raw numbers and the disparity bDecome glaring. Points per possession again is effected largely by the 3 point shot, as there are less possessions today but WAY more 3 point shots made.

indeed... and the 3-point shooting coupled with the defensive 3 seconds is what creates the phenomenal spacing we see in today's game... and the spacing makes ball movement more effective since the defense has to cover more ground - ultimately, the spacing is what ALLOWS for the optimal shot allocation that we see every team and player strive for today - 3-pointers, FT's and at-rim looks...

so no more tough, low-quality mid-range shots that crater one's FG% and eFG%... however, we know that previous eras lived off these shots - this is how we know that guys like Jordan and Bird that managed 60% TS taking all two's and mid-range (considered the worst shots in today's game), would shoot even better today with the easier and more optimal shot allocation that today's players have.




The pace didn't magically decrease, the league's emphasis on defense as a means of winning basketball games along with the rule changes that make defensive rotations shorter and the 1-4 position getting longer and more athletic has everything to do with that.

you made up literally everything in this post - first of all, players were TALLER in the 80's.... documentation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_league_average_height,_weight,_age_and_playing _experience

also, defense and pace was much more clogged and slowed down in the mid-90's or early 2000's than it is now...

the REAL reason pace is slower today is specifically because of the 3-point shot... if you had an advanced understanding of the game, you would know this.

the efg of a 3-pointer plummets with even the slightest contest - so you have to run offense to get decent 3-point looks - this takes time and shot-clock and slows the pace down - historically, as the 3-point shot attempts have increased, pace has slowed.

contrast that with the 80's when everyone shot all two-pointers - good mid-range shooters (like most players back then) can still hit a mid-range shot with guys draped all over, so they would run up and down and jack it up at the first sliver of daylight, or maybe with no daylight.... but the pace was way faster as a result of no threes (i'm in no way advocating for no threes, i'm just making an observation; i quite like the 3 point shot... its the defensive 3 seconds that is overkill).



I mean guys like Kiki Vandeweghe and Alex English were scoring in the high 20's on remarkable efficiency. Every season you had dozens of wing players scoring on high volume and high efficiency, now you can count on two hands the number of players (not just wings) that are doing that.
it would be fun to see today's 3-and-D player go back and have to take all mid-range amongst no spacing - there are a ton of guys today that wouldn't make the league back then - not only because it was a 300 person league and not a 450 player league (so the bottom 150 players from today would not make it in the 80's), but also because the many 3-point specialists like Danny Green flat-out would be overseas.

[Dro]

For as many Jordan "stans" there supposedly are...Its always the same 2-3 Jordan Haters in all these threads...Just sayin...

[oarabbus]

You are so ridiculous. There was no def 3 seconds because if your man was past the three point line above the FT line it was illegal defense if you WENT INTO THE LANE (for any purpose except to double the offensive player). And if you took ONE STEP towards the offensive player you had to go all the way to him. Help is now strongside, not weakside. All PnR defenses now incorporate a third defender to play off both offensive threats. Before defenses were forced to guard worthless offensive players 30 ft from the basket, now they can shade to the real threats.

And while total offense has stayed relatively flat, individual scoring has plummeted and the scoring is much more spread out.


You will never win. 3ball is literally a Jordan sociopath. You can't win. He would rather kill himself than admit any flaw of Jordan.

[oarabbus]

you can't answer the simple question as to why league-wide ORtg (the stat that measures how hard it is to score) has remained stable over the years.

all you want to do is act like multiple defenders clogging the paint on every possession was nothing compared to today's weak zones where all defenders must position themselves outside of the paint.

i also notice that you avoided responding to the post below, which quotes NBA people saying that new defensive strategies are invented to combat rule changes, and that Thibs strategies are designed around mitigating defensive 3 seconds..


Jordan would be a 15ppg scorer today, if he was LUCKY. Best case scenario today is a rich man's Gerald Green.


3balls blood pressure rising lol

[navy]

Gerald Green can shoot threes. Poor man's.

lol

[HurricaneKid]

you can't answer the simple question as to why league-wide ORtg (the stat that measures how hard it is to score) has remained stable over the years.

all you want to do is act like multiple defenders clogging the paint on every possession was nothing compared to today's weak zones where all defenders must position themselves outside of the paint.

i also notice that you avoided responding to the post below, which quotes NBA people saying that new defensive strategies are invented to combat rule changes, and that Thibs strategies are designed around mitigating defensive 3 seconds..

Christ you are dense. IT IS IMMATERIAL.

You are saying that total offense is flat. OF COURSE IT IS. We aren't talking about total team scoring. We are talking about individual scoring. And scoring distribution is completely different than it was when MJ was destroying defenses. Case in point, in the 87/87 season MJ took 2279 shots. No player in the last 6 years has taken 1700 shots. So we are talking about MJ shooting more than any player in the last 6 years BY 30%+. Defenses are allowed to gear towards the scoring threats of the opposition and force secondary scorers to score more.

You argument equates to "The American economy has maintained consistent growth, therefore VCR sales based on 1987 totals should maintain a linear progression.". Its an idiotic position. Individual stats are inflated as defenses were not allowed the freedom they are today.

You NEED to take a basic math class. You don't understand relationships between numbers at all. You take enormous liberties with subsets of numbers and relate them to unrelateable figures.

[3ball]

do you guys realize there is a stat that measures how hard it is to score?

it's called league-wide ORtg or points-per-possession... and this stat hasn't changed in 30 years.

this proves that the rule changes over the years result in a zero-sum game, where the defense gains in some areas (i.e. quasi-zones allowed), but loses in other areas (defensive 3 seconds, no more physical play), and the overall level of defensive effectiveness remains relatively constant.

and the new defensive strategies result from the rule changes anyway, so in the absence of the rule changes, the new strategies aren't needed.... the new defensive strategies only ensure that it remains equally hard to score under the new rules as it was under the old rules, and constant league-wide ORtg over time proves this.

http://grantland.com/features/packing-paint-nba-defensive-strategy-forcing-coaches-rethink-their-offense/

“A lot of the defensive strategies you see now are a natural evolution from rule changes,” says Houston GM Daryl Morey..

...he (Thibodeau) was the first coach to stretch the limits of the NBA’s new defensive three-second rule and flood the strong side with hybrid man/zone defenses."

.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

[QUOTE=3ball]do you guys realize there is a stat that measures how hard it is to score?

it's called league-wide ORtg or points-per-possession... and this stat hasn't changed in 30 years.

this proves that the rule changes over the years result in a zero-sum game, where the defense gains in some areas (i.e. quasi-zones allowed), but loses in other areas (defensive 3 seconds, no more physical play), and the overall level of defensive effectiveness remains relatively constant.

and the new defensive strategies result from the rule changes anyway, so in the absence of the rule changes, the new strategies aren't needed.... the new defensive strategies only ensure that it remains equally hard to score under the new rules as it was under the old rules, and constant league-wide ORtg over time proves this.

http://grantland.com/features/packing-paint-nba-defensive-strategy-forcing-coaches-rethink-their-offense/

[3ball]

You already posted this. Try again.


It's gold, that's why I re-posted it... no one has been able to respond to it.

and no one has been able to answer why the stat that measures how hard it is to score (League-wide ORtg) is the same as it was 30 years ago.

that stat by itself ethers this whole thread.
.

[3ball]

.
PLAYOFF AVERAGES THRU 30 YRS OLD:

JORDAN: 35 PPG / 7 APG / 50% FG
LEBRON: 28 PPG / 6 APG / 48% FG


FINALS AVERAGES THRU 30 YRS OLD:

JORDAN: 36 PPG / 8 APG / 50% FG
LEBRON: 24 PPG / 6 APG / 46% FG

Source: basketball-reference.com
.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

in all the world and history of basketball, you won't find anyone else doing this hop-step, except Jordan, and well, Gerald Green...

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/9f3a78a58ce8356bcd47eeb636169b2e.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/43200f7b24bf02eef1f49262adc03d82.gif

Like I said, you haven't watched much basketball. Here's Kobe doing what you are praising:

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-29-2014/KAXnMo.gif


Seriously, Gerald Green is the only one to do this move..

Seriously, watch more tape before making absurd claims.

[ArbitraryWater]

Like I said, you haven't watched much basketball. Here's Kobe doing what you are praising:

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-29-2014/KAXnMo.gif



Seriously, watch more tape before making absurd claims.

Huh? He's talking about the whole Play... Kobe's was way different... Wow, can't believe I gotta take 3ball's side here... Still, it's probably been done alot.. But not here.

[PHILA]

But in Jordan's era, contested mid-range shots were the biggest component of his shot allocation - So despite having a shot allocation that today would be considered horrific, Jordan shot very well.

In today's game, he would have a more optimal shot allocation like everyone else (threes, FT's and at-rim looks), so his shooting percentage would be much higher today.

He actually improved his 3 point shooting to .376 (3.0 FGA) in 1989-90, during training camp.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-3wzlZw6K8&t=8m50s

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Huh? He's talking about the whole Play... Kobe's was way different... Wow, can't believe I gotta take 3ball's side here... Still, it's probably been done alot.. But not here.

Wait, are you suggesting Kobe's play wasn't a hop step, dunk? Really?

Here's the full highlight in real time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EDilYikI1k

[Dro]

Wait, are you suggesting Kobe's play wasn't a hop step, dunk? Really?

Here's the full highlight in real time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EDilYikI1k
I can't view the link at work but I'm sure I've seen Kobe do the hop-step dunk many times...Now MJ is much quicker with it but still there's not many players that do it...

[3ball]

I can't view the link at work but I'm sure I've seen Kobe do the hop-step dunk many times...Now MJ is much quicker with it but still there's not many players that do it...
All hop steps are not the same... everyone does that move that kobe did in that GIF - that's a very standard way to take off two-feet (albiet, still better than anything you'll see Lebron do off two feet, realtalk).

With Jordan and Green's, it's almost a travel, as they take a full step BEFORE the jump-stop... so look out for that full step they take before the jump-stop... it's a very sneaky.

Jordan and Green's hop-step is one-of-a-kind (well, i guess two-of-a-kind) - you should see the difference if you look closely enough.

Here's Jordan doing it some more - the first three below are the most clear:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/7854892c34d2d722409acbe23f21287b.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/43200f7b24bf02eef1f49262adc03d82.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_with_HopStep_Poster_on_80238d01ed987cdc607f 1ff84f8f070f.gif



Compare to Gerald Green:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/9f3a78a58ce8356bcd47eeb636169b2e.gif



Here's two more from Jordan - he does the move, but these vids are less clear:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/0fbb838417ffd0dc9318ae2d49939be2.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Splits_Perimeter_Double_6e7b1e60fae2c32de17 fc6999697853d.gif


GOAT, one-of-a-kind footwork by Gerald Green... :applause:

[Akhenaten]

but defenses back then didn't need to come from another area of the floor - they were already waiting in the paint.

for example, do you realize how ridiculous it would be for a team in the 80's to use a "strong side flood" when there is no defensive 3 seconds?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v300/Haskel45/9599699.gif

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html

1966-67

[Da_Realist]

I don't understand why this thread is so long. Lebron avg'd 27 ppg last year shooting 57%. He could have scored 30 on at least 53%. He's not nearly as skilled, diverse or fundamentally sound a scorer as MJ was. Nor was he as competitive.

What defense can stop a guy with no offensive weaknesses? So Lebron can destroy the league to the tune of 27 on 57 but MJ can't? Makes no sense. MJ had one of the best midrange jumpshots in the game. Much more reliable than Lebron's, especially under durress. Force him to take that midrange shot for his whole career and he might have dominated for 15-16 years instead of 13. He was already an iron man even under the physicality of the late 80's/90's.

I'm using Lebron because he is clearly the best in the game today.

[Asukal]

So what these bran stans are saying is, bran with his limited offensive moves can score at a very high efficiency in this era's defenses but somehow Jordan would struggle scoring efficiently. :rolleyes:

Bran stans have limited brain capacity, nothing new here let's move on. :oldlol:

[navy]

So what these bran stans are saying is, bran with his limited offensive moves can score at a very high efficiency in this era's defenses but somehow Jordan would struggle scoring efficiently. :rolleyes:

Bran stans have limited brain capacity, nothing new here let's move on. :oldlol:
Bran isnt limited offensively. Average mid range, average free throws, good threes, goat tier driving, good post, goat tier finishing. Limited in what? Inefficient two pointers?

Im not sure anyone here has seriously suggested Jordan would struggle scoring efficiently.

[Micku]

Thibs is right but it doesn't mean MJ would be less effective now. Oh, and bigs still found a way to shadow Jordan in his more versatile / drive-centric game style from '87 - '93.

MJ from '96 - '98 scored almost exclusively on jumpers. His point about drives becoming jumpers. Which means MJ put up 30.4 ppg, 29.7 ppg, and 28.7 ppg from ages 33 - 35 on post up, elbow, and mid range jumpers. So an extra wall of defenders means nadda.


Pretty much. But Jordan by 92 was more of a jump shooter anyway. In 97, I think he averaged 49% at the mid range? That's pretty insane. He might've been better in his prime. He was definitely a better finisher in his prime. Even when he came back with the Wiz, his jumpshot was about 42% or something. This is his shot chart in 97:
http://img.bleacherreport.net/img/article/media_slots/photos/001/021/796/Shotchart_1377133449171_crop_exact.png?w=650&h=433&q=85

But Thibs is right like people said. There are better options in terms of help defense now because of zone. Anyway, MJ had the skills, IQ, and the athleticism to score 30 ppg on 50% in any era.

[juju151111]

prime Jordan transplanted to today's time would do worse but that is only because he molded his game for a different time. If he were brought up to play in this time he would've simply worked on different aspects of his game (3pt shooting etc) and eventually imo dominated just as much as he ever did.
How would prime Jordan did worse when 09 Wade was dominating the league with a garbage 3 point shot.

[JUDGE WITNESS]

somewhere an alarm is going off in dondadda's basement
:lol

[deja vu]

Nah... Jordan is GOAT so he would still dominate today's game. You'd think he wouldn't adjust his offensive game to deal with that kind of defense?

[Asukal]

Bran isnt limited offensively. Average mid range, average free throws, good threes, goat tier driving, good post, goat tier finishing. Limited in what? Inefficient two pointers?

Im not sure anyone here has seriously suggested Jordan would struggle scoring efficiently.

Yes he is when compared to the GOAT. :rolleyes:

[3ball]

.
Defenders paint-camping while their man is behind the 3-point line

(this happened all the time - these were taken from a single 10 minute highlight vid):


1) Pippen in far-corner, guarded by paint-campers:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/b64923de29630157895f9c3f9dc2e1bd.gif



2) Armstrong in far-corner being guarded by paint-campers (this one's actually from a different vid):

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/cc9f5bd27abe1cedf21d5f3133957e62.gif



3) Pippen in near-corner, guarded by paint camper:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/pippen-is-at-near-corner-3poin-545a2a6bc32f2.gif



4) Craig Hodges in near-corner AND Sellers near-sideline, both guarded by paint campers:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/near-corner-3pt-shooter-guarde-545a2b06491c5.gif



5) Pippen at top of key AND Paxson far sideline being guarded by paint-campers:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Paxson-on-far-sideline-being-b-545a2f9c3dd98.gif



6) Paxson on far sideline is being guarded by paint-camper:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/paxson-far-sideline-being-guar-545a3071c7d91.gif



7) Pippen (top of key) and Armstrong (far sideline) being guarded by paint-campers:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/ff254945c516053cd729b4e7438b4688.gif



8) Paxson is near the top of key, guarded by habitual paint-camper, Price:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Paxson-guarded-by-paintcamper-545a381e32380.gif

[Blue&Orange]

You don't find it odd that since the rule changes perimeter scoring has exploded collectively to all time records? When Jordan was winning scoring title in the 90s, he was usually the only perimeter guy in the top 5 scorers list (including when guys like Kobe and Iverson were in the league). In fact, check out who was doing the bulk of the scoring league wide when he left to play baseball.

Then flash forward to post '06... when was the last time a non perimeter player won the scoring title? When was the last time the top 5-10 scorers in the league weren't perimeter players.

But I'm supposed to believe it's harder now for those guys to get buckets?

Why?
And no one answered because no one could.


just read what former players and coaches have to say about yesteryears defensive schemes:

“Offenses are a little more complex because the defenses have forced that,” Ainge says. “In the ’80s, defense was important but you didn’t do as much double-teaming, you didn’t do as much trapping. You played guys straight up."

SHIT! can you imagine what Jordan would have done on the complex offenses of today that Ainge talks about? I shudder only thinking about it!

[poido123]

Jordan would be a 15ppg scorer today, if he was LUCKY. Best case scenario today is a rich man's Gerald Green.


3balls blood pressure rising lol


And a defensive impact like Boozer :lol

[3ball]

If Thibbs' Celtics defenses are better than the late 80's Pistons or early 90's Knicks, why did Wade average 33.2 ppg on 56% FG and 66% TS against Thibbs in 2010 Playoffs?

How does Durant averaged 30 ppg on 54% shooting and 65% TS against the Spurs?

Jordan never shot 66% TS against ANY playoff team, let alone the Pistons and Knicks - if he had, that would mean the Pistons and Knicks had BAD DEFENSES.

[Milbuck]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/d6c47d055cfff266f26bde61297986cf.gif

Under today's defensive 3 seconds rule, a paint defender must be within "armslength" of an opponent to stay in the lane.. http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html

In today's game, Eaton would draw a technical after 3 seconds because Cartwright is out of "armslength" reach, but in previous eras, Eaton is legal because Cartwright only needs to be "adjacent to the paint":


Here's the original rule from 1982: (http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html)


1981-82
"Defender on post player is allowed in defensive three-second area (A post player is any player adjacent to paint)".

So just by substituting the rule's own parenthetical reference, the rule translates EXACTLY to: "Defender on player adjacent to the paint is allowed in defensive 3 second area."

There is a quote from then-commissioner Larry O'Brien saying the old 3-seconds rule was meant to open up the lane, but in reality, the league didn't even know what spacing was at the time like we do today... The way people thought about the game back then was 180-degrees different from the way we think about the game today, so O'Brien's standard in 1982 of what a clear lane was does not compare to our current standard, which is why the old 3-seconds rule was replaced in 2001, in an attempt to "open up the game", as the NBA has stated.

The old rule had been incredibly simple in saying that anytime your man is "adjacent to the paint", you can stay in the lane.. The paint is a huge, 16-foot area, so a player "adjacent to the paint" is almost always out of "armslength", especially considering "adjacent to the paint" meant right next to the paint, a few feet outside the paint, or all the way out to the 3-point line... The GIF's below showing shooters at the 3-point line being guarded by paint-campers is the best example of how the old rule and its "adjacent to the paint" language was designed to allow players to camp in the paint:



GIF's of Shooters At 3-Point Line Being Guarded By Defenders Camping in Paint:


The old 3 seconds rule allowed players to camp in the paint so much, that players could camp in the paint while their man was behind the 3-point line - on every possession, there were paint-campers guarding players who were behind the 3-point line, or at least far outside the paint.

I can post literally thousands of clips like the ones below... The ones listed below are from a single, run-of-the-mill Jordan highlight video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7Huo88x-Fk



1) Armstrong in far-corner being guarded by paint-campers (this one's actually from a different vid):

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/cc9f5bd27abe1cedf21d5f3133957e62.gif



2) Pippen in near-corner, guarded by paint camper:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/pippen-is-at-near-corner-3poin-545a2a6bc32f2.gif



3) Craig Hodges in near-corner AND Sellers near-sideline, both guarded by paint campers:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/near-corner-3pt-shooter-guarde-545a2b06491c5.gif



4) Pippen at top of key AND Paxson far sideline being guarded by paint-campers:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Paxson-on-far-sideline-being-b-545a2f9c3dd98.gif



5) Paxson on far sideline is being guarded by paint-camper:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/paxson-far-sideline-being-guar-545a3071c7d91.gif



6) Pippen (top of key) and Armstrong (far sideline) being guarded by paint-campers:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/ff254945c516053cd729b4e7438b4688.gif



7) Paxson is near the top of key, guarded by habitual paint-camper, Price:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Paxson-guarded-by-paintcamper-545a381e32380.gif



8) Pippen in far-corner, guarded by paint-campers:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/b64923de29630157895f9c3f9dc2e1bd.gif

If Thibbs' Celtics defenses are better than the late 80's Pistons or early 90's Knicks, why did Wade average 33.2 ppg on 56% FG and 66% TS against Thibbs in 2010 Playoffs?

How does Durant averaged 30 ppg on 54% shooting and 65% TS against the Spurs?

Jordan never shot 66% TS against ANY playoff team, let alone the Pistons and Knicks - if he had, that would mean the Pistons and Knicks had BAD DEFENSES.
Jordan is GOAT, but......


























































































didn't read :yaohappy:

[navy]

If Thibbs' Celtics defenses are better than the late 80's Pistons or early 90's Knicks, why did Wade average 33.2 ppg on 56% FG and 66% TS against Thibbs in 2010 Playoffs?

How does Durant averaged 30 ppg on 54% shooting and 65% TS against the Spurs?

Jordan never shot 66% TS against ANY playoff team, let alone the Pistons and Knicks - if he had, that would mean the Pistons and Knicks had BAD DEFENSES.
Implying it is impossible for Wade or Durant to outplay Jordan for a series?

[sportjames23]

Implying it is impossible for Wade or Durant to outplay Jordan for a series?


Um, yeah.

Win or lose, MJ was never outplayed in a series, with the exception possibly when he first came back from retirement in '95.

Durant got outplayed by Lebron. You don't think MJ would absolutely merk him in a playoff series?

[navy]

Um, yeah.

Win or lose, MJ was never outplayed in a series, with the exception possibly when he first came back from retirement in '95.

Durant got outplayed by Lebron. You don't think MJ would absolutely merk him in a playoff series?
What are you talking about? No one mentioned head to head.

[3ball]

.
No-Spacing and Paint-Camping


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/573113292e852dcb8f5fe242c53e3982.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/832a26d5ea87f83465b92fe12837530b.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/c2bdc97f50bdc6f9fb0d44ff4f53f8f6.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/728b10a2dca8fca89dca89f115243b29.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/54cd4db17a9330ca58b8e33a0b6f9b2f.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/9452b82cec96338b7f838b67c9198694.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/cc9f5bd27abe1cedf21d5f3133957e62.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/71cf54bff7eeb11e7ad0da2af5d3536f.gif.. Notice Mureasan - camping all day
.

[navy]

if a player shoots 66% TS against a team, that team does not have a tough defense.

wade and durant aren't just shooting better by a little bit.

jordan's percentages against the Pistons and Knicks are nowhere near 66% TS.

it can only be a function of today's weaker defenses that must now contend with spacing and defensive 3 seconds, causing them to help from further distances and leaving the paint clear for higher paint percentages.
Or Wade and Durant are good players.

Which series about Durant are you talking about btw? What was the defensive rating for those Spurs?

[sportjames23]

What are you talking about? No one mentioned head to head.


You mentioned the possibility of either one of them outplaying MJ for a series.

[navy]

You mentioned the possibility of either one of them outplaying MJ for a series.
You just arent paying attention.

They arent in the same series.

[3ball]

You just arent paying attention.

They arent in the same series.
sportjames got you there i think navy - if they can't beat MJ heads-up, then they are highly unlikely to do better than he could against another team.

and to assume they would, is to make the unlikely, against-the-odds assumptive leap.

[navy]

sportjames got you there i think navy - if they can't beat MJ heads-up, then they are highly unlikely to do better than he could against another team.

and to assume they would, is to make the unlikely, against-the-odds assumptive leap.
lol, random change of the subject.

Let's just say I agree. Now go back to the dumb point you were making.

[LAZERUSS]

It's an absolute fact that it's more difficult to score in today's NBA than it was back in the 90s.

All the rule changes from 2005 on were nothing more than to counter balance defensive systems like the aforementioned. It's all evened out now.

MJ's last season in the NBA... 1997-1998.

League averaged 95.6 ppg on a .478 eFG%


THIS season...

League average is 100.5 ppg on a .499 eFG%

[Kvnzhangyay]

MJ's last season in the NBA... 1997-1998.

League averaged 95.6 ppg on a .478 eFG%


THIS season...

League average is 100.5 ppg on a .499 eFG%

what?

[3ball]

Let's just say I agree. Now go back to the dumb point you were making.


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/573113292e852dcb8f5fe242c53e3982.gif

while i can provide literally thousands of plays like this (because players were allowed to camp in the paint in previous eras), it is impossible to find even ONE play from today's game where players are camping under the rim and packing the paint like the GIF above.

Also, the GIF above shows that being allowed to camp in the lane meant swinging the ball was less effective in previous eras.. Defenders barely had to move when the ball was swung - they could remain stationary and just turn their head and body like a swivel chair.

But in today's game with defensive 3 seconds, players must stay out of the lane... So when the ball is swung, defenders must move from outside the lane on one side, to outside the lane on the other side - this is much easier for the offense to face than defenders getting to camp in the lane and merely swivel-chair when the ball is swung.

since swinging the ball wasn't as effective in previous eras when players could camp in the lane, teams didn't swing the ball as much - and overall, teams didn't rely on passing to get open shots as much, since passing and cutting lanes didn't exist in previous eras like they do today, now that spacing and rule changes have "opened up the game".
.

[Dr.J4ever]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/573113292e852dcb8f5fe242c53e3982.gif

while i can provide literally thousands of plays like this (because players were allowed to camp in the paint in previous eras), it is impossible to find even ONE play from today's game where players are camping under the rim and packing the paint like the GIF above.

Also, the GIF above shows that being allowed to camp in the lane meant swinging the ball was less effective in previous eras.. Defenders barely had to move when the ball was swung - they could remain stationary and just turn their head and body like a swivel chair.

But in today's game with defensive 3 seconds, players must stay out of the lane... So when the ball is swung, defenders must move from outside the lane on one side, to outside the lane on the other side - this is much easier for the offense to face than defenders getting to camp in the lane and merely swivel-chair when the ball is swung.

since swinging the ball wasn't as effective in previous eras when players could camp in the lane, teams didn't swing the ball as much - and overall, teams didn't rely on passing to get open shots as much, since passing and cutting lanes didn't exist in previous eras like they do today, now that spacing and rule changes have "opened up the game".
.

Sorry 3ball, but most of what you said is not true.

Yes, the paint can at times be more crowded in past eras, but it was due to offensive players converging around the paint because offensive philosophy dictated this.

You can find GIFS of anything. Incompetence. Bloopers. Great plays. You can find this at any level of basketball. You can find players driving to the hoop with a wide open lane, even in international ball which employs a full blown zone. It just depends on the circumstance. It's not proof of anything.

Just tonight. I saw parts of the Mem/Mia game when Carter posted up, and 3 players converge on the strong side with 2 players doubling him, and another in the paint while guarding no one. There are many examples in most games.

Yes, you have a point that Illegal Defenses in past eras where not always called consistently, and teams often times got away with it, but the rule is clearer today, and teams have been forced to employ more 3 point shootin than ever.

I like the game better today. It's better to watch and the level is higher than ever, in my opinion.

[3ball]

:facepalm

http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/098/4/2/glasses_are_cool___matt_smith___gif_by_demon_slaye r13-d4vek3r.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/fa322e569c8c0b0e413a45e58bb9e54a.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/fa322e569c8c0b0e413a45e58bb9e54a.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/8c58ee0eb321312606e61f07b74f8312.gif
.

[3ball]

You can find GIFS of anything.


so why can't anyone point me to a play from today's game where defenders are camping under the rim indefinitely like previous eras?





i like the game better today. It's better to watch and the level is higher than ever, in my opinion.


so you like less scoring - today's game employs a slowed down brand of basketball to set up all the 3-pointers and spacing... every motion throughout the game looks pre-planned, predictable and choreographed - the spacing looks organized and marching-band like, as opposed to the free flowing, instinctive and random movements of previous eras.

and it's impossible for the level to be higher if 27% of shots taken are 3-pointers... that means at least 27% of all shots are play-finishing (minus pull-up 3's which are much less frequent).

and the 3-pointers create incredible spacing that coupled with defensive 3 seconds and the banning of physical play, turns the game into a mostly play-finishing, which is NOT "high level"... instead, it looks more choreographed and pre-planned, not quick-reacting and instinctive like previous eras.
.

[Dr.J4ever]

so why can't anyone point me to a play from today's game where defenders are camping under the rim indefinitely like previous eras?



so you like less scoring - today's game employs a slowed down brand of basketball to set up all the 3-pointers and spacing... every motion throughout the game looks pre-planned, predictable and choreographed - the spacing looks organized and marching-band like, as opposed to the free flowing, instinctive and random movements of previous eras.

and it's impossible for the level to be higher if 27% of shots taken are 3-pointers... that means at least 27% of all shots are play-finishing (minus pull-up 3's which are much less frequent).

and the 3-pointers create incredible spacing that coupled with defensive 3 seconds and the banning of physical play, turns the game into a mostly play-finishing, which is NOT "high level"... instead, it looks more choreographed and pre-planned, not quick-reacting and instinctive like previous eras.
.

I admit it. I'm an older poster and I can't do GiFS. So sue me.:lol
There really are a ton of examples everyday.

Open your mind. I used to be like you. As the 80s turned to the 90s, I struggled to accept Jordan and his Bulls, and how they seem to have diminished the 80s era, but as I got older, I accepted Jordan and had to concede the obvious.

I look at today's game, and I see great shooting(better than ever), unselfish play, and more intelligent defense. I respect your opinion and there is a case to be made that the 90s, in particular, had the roughest defense I have ever seen, and I have been watching NBA hoops since 1981.

[3ball]

There really are a ton of examples everyday... but i can't do GIFs.. sue me


this is weak and proves my point - just point me to the time in a youtube where defenders are camping under the rim like the previous GIF's.





Open your mind.


there is nothing to open my mind about - all i have to do is look at the actual changes to the rulebook.
.

[3ball]

the new rule in 2005 states that players must be "within armslength" (http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html) of an opponent to remain in the paint.

the original 3 seconds rule from 1982 states that a player can remain in the paint if their man is "adjacent to the paint" (http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html).

"adjacent" means outside of the paint, and outside of the paint is almost always out of "armslength" reach.
.

[3ball]

here - i'll post both 3 seconds rules in the next post:

[3ball]

Today's defensive 3 seconds rule requires defenders to stay out of the lane, unless they are within "armslength" of an opponent.. http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html


The original rule from 1982 said a defender could stay in the lane if his man was "adjacent to the paint": (http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html)


1981-82
"Defender on post player is allowed in defensive three-second area (A post player is any player adjacent to paint)".

So just by substituting the rule's own parenthetical reference, the rule translates EXACTLY to: "Defender on player adjacent to the paint is allowed in defensive 3 second area."


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/b209aeddf6bfaaa9fcaed8eea3c72c65.gif


in this clip, Klay Thompson's dad (#43 in the middle of lane) would get a tech after 3 seconds in today's game because his man is out of "armslength".... but back then, he was legal because his man was "adjacent to the paint", which was the only requirement at the time - as you can see, "adjacent to the paint" (outside the paint) is out of "armslength" reach... also, notice how there is no need for Thompson to tippy-toe in and out of the paint.


in previous eras, guys didn't have to worry about staying out of the lane or tippy-toeing - the 3 seconds rule was very simple back then: as long as their man was "adjacent to the paint", defenders could stay in the lane... so usually, they could camp in the lane for the entire possession because the paint is huge, and "adjacent to the paint" covers a ton of ground... Furthermore, "adjacent to the paint" could mean right next to the paint, a few feet outside the paint, or all the way out to the 3-point line - defenders routinely camped in the paint while their man was behind the 3-point line (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10695139&postcount=1).

contrastingly, today's rule makes sure defenders can physically touch their man to stay in the lane, by requiring defenders be within "armslength" of an opponent - since players that are "adjacent to the paint", or outside the paint, are OUT of armslength reach to defenders inside the paint, players in today's game are not allowed to stay in the lane if their man is outside the paint.

[pauk]

Exactly... this was a huge advantage for 80s-90s scorers... allowed you to have many one-on-one situations.... I mean literally speaking, like if you faced your man up and looked behind him there was no wall there behind ready to contest & take charges, you blew by your man and it was over, defenders could only then run in to help/contest the easy basket which is a whole bit harder...

Illegal defense was a bit different to say the least....

...and while fans think handchecking made it tougher for players to score, i think it actually HELPED if you were a bigger/stronger guy, why? Because you as an offensive player were allowed to counter that physically with your own hands & body aswell, you could get away with many more elbow/off-hand push ofs, body riding and you could slap the defenders arms away from your vicinity (like Jordan used to do alot).... so if you were strong/athletic (and smart) as Jordan no guy at your position was really at an advantage....

Jordan was great, but this indeed helped alot....

[pauk]

3ball? What the hell are you talking about.... In the 90s, teams had to actually defend every player on the court unless they sent a hard double-team.... today you are allowed to amplify your entire roster on one player and get away with it.... http://www.sbnation.com/2014/3/25/5542838/nba-rules-changes-lebron-james-michael-jordan

[3ball]

Let's just say I agree. Now go back to the dumb point you were making.


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/10f1c13acb043d8be838b7cd90e5c5fd.gif

under today's rules, you can bring Ibaka from the weakside over to the strong side where lebron is, but he must come all the way over so he is outside the lane - this leaves the weakside a man down and vulnerable to easy ball movement and assists to that side of the floor.

It should be noted that the setup shown in the GIF above (where defenders are tippy-toeing in and out of the lane) is the common defensive setup in this spot, as shown below again..

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/8cfb1f5cd6acc974960d916586e49b4a.gif



Otoh, the setup shown below from previous eras was superior, since defenders were allowed to camp in the lane and could therefore simultaneously defend the weakside while stopping the dribble-penetrator at the rim.

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/c27a7589bc4681278938f85dbb781f40.gif


call this cherry-picking if you want - but this type of example is standard and there are thousands more, whereas it's impossible to find REVERSE examples where previous era paint defense is worse than today's.
.

[3ball]

OK, how many would LeBron score against the same defense? :confusedshrug:


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/c33b0be11565b94476f8e7a7e9902217.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/832a26d5ea87f83465b92fe12837530b.gif

if lebron was dumped back into a previous era, his stats might be less, but the main difference would be the efficiency... right now, lebron uses the spacing to ensure that most of his shots are 3-pointers or clean at-rim looks.

but in a no-spacing environment where he doesn't have his floor-spreaders spacing the floor for him and defenders were camping in the lane, he'd have to hoist up a much higher proportion of contested mid-range shots (like the jordan gif above), which are his least favorite shot... and the banging he would need to do in the paint would be dimensions harder than what he deals with now.
.

[SpanishACB]

nice article

some of those videos would make lazarus cry

[3ball]

it's dumb to ponder how jordan would do today, when lesser players do better than he ever did: wade averaged 33.2 ppg on 66% TS against Thibb's Celtics defense in 2010 playoffs, Durant got 30 ppg on 65% TS against the Spurs, and others have similar ridiculous percentages against today's spaced out defenses - it is impossible for a defense to be good if players can get that type of shooting percentage.

Jordan never got those percentages against any playoff team, and was NOWHERE NEAR those percentages against top defenses like the Pistons and Knicks - if he HAD gotten those ridiculous percentages, that would have meant those defenses were bad - that would have been unheard of against a top defense in previous eras, but today it happens all the time.

plus, lebron does just fine with his clunky style and molasses slow first step, which gets him locked up by gordon hayward - look how horrible his first step is at 29::


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/d7821303425e7393bf4711800224841e.gif



NO COMPARISON to a 30 year-old MJ.. there isn't anyone in the league doing it like this or this easy (and blowing by super-athlete doug west.. youtube doug west if you don't know how athletic he was):


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_with_the_Baseline_HopSt_f3dde741dd9364e1d67 d426c26375b8c.gif




and even in lebron's prime, lebron never slid between defenders like this.. and he never changed direction or got off his feet this quickly either (and this is against paul pressey, then the in-out on terry cummings, not gordon hayward):


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/b65300f8b710f908d7b963f480a3e929.gif

[houston]

game changed alot since jordan hey day

[Dr.J4ever]

3ball? What the hell are you talking about.... In the 90s, teams had to actually defend every player on the court unless they sent a hard double-team.... today you are allowed to amplify your entire roster on one player and get away with it.... http://www.sbnation.com/2014/3/25/5542838/nba-rules-changes-lebron-james-michael-jordan
Great article. Pretty much settles the thread.

[navy]

Great article. Pretty much settles the thread.
It should, but it doesnt.

[jzek]

Confirmed: Jordan is GOAT to everyone who watched the NBA in the 90s.

Goes to show how unlucky youngsters are who only got to see the likes of Kobe and LeBron...

[3ball]

It should, but it doesnt.
why the hell should it?

i have the facts and RULES on my side dumbass - i just posted the ACTUAL RULES that show previous eras were allowed to camp in the paint... i don't need to hide behind some inaccurate article written by someone that has no more special knowledge about the game than any fan like you or me.

you can read right?... okay.. then stfu, because the rules are posted at the top of this page - previous eras could camp in the lane, and today they can't.

[VengefulAngel]

why the hell should it?

i have the facts and RULES on my side dumbass - i just posted the ACTUAL RULES that show previous eras were allowed to camp in the paint... i don't need to hide behind some inaccurate article written by someone that has no more special knowledge about the game than any fan like you or me.

you can read right?... okay.. then stfu, because the rules are posted at the top of this page - previous eras could camp in the lane, and today they can't.

Please can you stop. I don't want to hear the same argument 100 times.

[3ball]

.
No Spacing = Defenders in Close Proximity = Easier/Better Help Defense


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/573113292e852dcb8f5fe242c53e3982.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/832a26d5ea87f83465b92fe12837530b.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/c2bdc97f50bdc6f9fb0d44ff4f53f8f6.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/728b10a2dca8fca89dca89f115243b29.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/54cd4db17a9330ca58b8e33a0b6f9b2f.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/9452b82cec96338b7f838b67c9198694.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/cc9f5bd27abe1cedf21d5f3133957e62.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/4f4c41732d2efc336f98c983acb52e72.gif... See Bill Walton Waiting in Lane

[Blue&Orange]

It should, but it doesnt.
It does.

That article is a bonanza of cherry picking screenshots. Anyone who writes an article trying to prove todays paint is more packed, is in two words, a colossal retard.


Today you have coaches that take away their bigs out of the game, Hibbert and Duncan (huge stupid mistake in my opinion), but nevertheless they did it, because they were to "slow" to protect the paint and somehow the paint is more packed today. The fact that the only angle favoring Lebron in that article is this stupid fantasy that paint is more packed today should definitely end this discussion.

Facts Vs delusion

[LAZERUSS]

what?


MJ's last season was in 97-98. I don't count the shell of an MJ after that.

But the point stands. It was more difficult to score, and to score efficiently in '98, than in '14.

[Elosha]

Interesting thread, but it's somewhat problematic for anyone, even a guru like Thibs, to make categorical statements about differences for even one specific play scenario such as modern defenders' reaction to Jordan catching in the high post. Those problems increase exponentially when we try to to extrapolate as to the entire level of defensive prowess of 80-90's v. 2000-10's. Not to say that Thibs isn't making a valid point, but we can go tit for tat, and find other scenarios Jordan would find easier to exploit in today's game. And Thibs' comments in the article as a whole, acknowledge that fact.

Personally, I think Jordan would have a bit more offensive success today than in the past and would be the acknowledged best player. However, even the 90's Bulls game would need to be adjusted to today's game, or they would be at a disadvantage. The Bulls would have to adjust to the emphasis and need to defend the three point line at all times, and they would have to adjust to the explosiveness and athleticism of many scoring point guards today. The Bulls were always capable of being exploited at the pg position, even though Paxon and Kerr were serviceable and clutch. But at the same time, slap this year's Spurs, OKC or GS team into the 80's and 90's and they'd have to adjust to more physical defenses and bruising fouls, aggressive trapping and more contested and congested paint.

To be honest, basketball "progresses" just like any other sport, in fits and spurts, some for the better, some for the worse. Some might argue that the 90's ultra-physical defenses such as NY and Miami were brutal and ugly to watch, but others might argue that it ground down all but the best teams such as the Bulls and that it would likely grind down most or all of the elite offenses today, were it allowed to be executed. Some might claim the emphasis on player and team efficiency makes for a more pure, team-oriented game, others claim it diminishes the ability/need for transcendent players, who traditionally most great championship teams require. It all boils down to preferences and assumptions that none of us can ever know about how different eras would have performed against each other.

Lastly, in reference 3ball's point about players like KD and Wade having individual playoff series in which they scored "better" or more efficiently than Jordan's and that being a referendum on poor modern day defenses: I'm not sure such small sample sizes indicate anything other than that we are talking about three all time greats. I certainly would argue that Jordan had greater and more dominant scoring series than either Wade in 2010 against Boston or KD against the Spurs, even if these players scored with more efficiency.

You can put all three players in either 80's and 90's or today and all three will have overall great playoff careers. But in my opinion, Jordan's body of work as far as scoring will be collectively better than someone like Wade, Kobe, KD, or Lebron no matter what era they are playing. because as great as they are, each of those players has areas of offensive weaknesses, either from a skillset or from a mental aspect, that can be exploited. Jordan was, of course not perfect, but it usually much harder to hold him down over the course of a 7 game series or probe any areas of weakness than it is for these other players.

Just my two cents worth; very good observations here by a number of posters.


it's dumb to ponder how jordan would do today, when lesser players do better than he ever did: wade averaged 33.2 ppg on 66% TS against Thibb's Celtics defense in 2010 playoffs, Durant got 30 ppg on 65% TS against the Spurs, and others have similar ridiculous percentages against today's spaced out defenses - it is impossible for a defense to be good if players can get that type of shooting percentage.

Jordan never got those percentages against any playoff team, and was NOWHERE NEAR those percentages against top defenses like the Pistons and Knicks - if he HAD gotten those ridiculous percentages, that would have meant those defenses were bad - that would have been unheard of against a top defense in previous eras, but today it happens all the time.

plus, lebron does just fine with his clunky style and molasses slow first step, which gets him locked up by gordon hayward - look how horrible his first step is at 29::


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/d7821303425e7393bf4711800224841e.gif



NO COMPARISON to a 30 year-old MJ.. there isn't anyone in the league doing it like this or this easy (and blowing by super-athlete doug west.. youtube doug west if you don't know how athletic he was):


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_with_the_Baseline_HopSt_f3dde741dd9364e1d67 d426c26375b8c.gif




and even in lebron's prime, lebron never slid between defenders like this.. and he never changed direction or got off his feet this quickly either (and this is against paul pressey, then the in-out on terry cummings, not gordon hayward):


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/b65300f8b710f908d7b963f480a3e929.gif

[La Frescobaldi]

Exactly... this was a huge advantage for 80s-90s scorers... allowed you to have many one-on-one situations.... I mean literally speaking, like if you faced your man up and looked behind him there was no wall there behind ready to contest & take charges, you blew by your man and it was over, defenders could only then run in to help/contest the easy basket which is a whole bit harder...

Illegal defense was a bit different to say the least....

...and while fans think handchecking made it tougher for players to score, i think it actually HELPED if you were a bigger/stronger guy, why? Because you as an offensive player were allowed to counter that physically with your own hands & body aswell, you could get away with many more elbow/off-hand push ofs, body riding and you could slap the defenders arms away from your vicinity (like Jordan used to do alot).... so if you were strong/athletic (and smart) as Jordan no guy at your position was really at an advantage....

Jordan was great, but this indeed helped alot....
No.
A man with a powerful forearm throws a guy off balance. Sure there are tricks an offensive guy can use, but there's no denying a powerful defender has an enormous advantage over a defender who can only move his feet.

[Da_Realist]

Interesting thread, but it's somewhat problematic for anyone, even a guru like Thibs, to make categorical statements about differences for even one specific play scenario such as modern defenders' reaction to Jordan catching in the high post. Those problems increase exponentially when we try to to extrapolate as to the entire level of defensive prowess of 80-90's v. 2000-10's. Not to say that Thibs isn't making a valid point, but we can go tit for tat, and find other scenarios Jordan would find easier to exploit in today's game. And Thibs' comments in the article as a whole, acknowledge that fact.

Personally, I think Jordan would have a bit more offensive success today than in the past and would be the acknowledged best player. However, even the 90's Bulls game would need to be adjusted to today's game, or they would be at a disadvantage. The Bulls would have to adjust to the emphasis and need to defend the three point line at all times, and they would have to adjust to the explosiveness and athleticism of many scoring point guards today. The Bulls were always capable of being exploited at the pg position, even though Paxon and Kerr were serviceable and clutch. But at the same time, slap this year's Spurs, OKC or GS team into the 80's and 90's and they'd have to adjust to more physical defenses and bruising fouls, aggressive trapping and more contested and congested paint.

To be honest, basketball "progresses" just like any other sport, in fits and spurts, some for the better, some for the worse. Some might argue that the 90's ultra-physical defenses such as NY and Miami were brutal and ugly to watch, but others might argue that it ground down all but the best teams such as the Bulls and that it would likely grind down most or all of the elite offenses today, were it allowed to be executed. Some might claim the emphasis on player and team efficiency makes for a more pure, team-oriented game, others claim it diminishes the ability/need for transcendent players, who traditionally most great championship teams require. It all boils down to preferences and assumptions that none of us can ever know about how different eras would have performed against each other.

Lastly, in reference 3ball's point about players like KD and Wade having individual playoff series in which they scored "better" or more efficiently than Jordan's and that being a referendum on poor modern day defenses: I'm not sure such small sample sizes indicate anything other than that we are talking about three all time greats. I certainly would argue that Jordan had greater and more dominant scoring series than either Wade in 2010 against Boston or KD against the Spurs, even if these players scored with more efficiency.

You can put all three players in either 80's and 90's or today and all three will have overall great playoff careers. But in my opinion, Jordan's body of work as far as scoring will be collectively better than someone like Wade, Kobe, KD, or Lebron no matter what era they are playing. because as great as they are, each of those players has areas of offensive weaknesses, either from a skillset or from a mental aspect, that can be exploited. Jordan was, of course not perfect, but it usually much harder to hold him down over the course of a 7 game series or probe any areas of weakness than it is for these other players.

Just my two cents worth; very good observations here by a number of posters.

Great post

[Euroleague]

http://www.nba.com/2014/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/28/the-international-influence-mainbar/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt3a

A great article on the evolution of the "city game" into the world's game and the impact of internationals on the NBA.

I saw this interesting quote that could shed light on some of the debate on rules changes we were having here on ISH a couple months back..

""When Jordan was playing," Chicago coach Tom Thibodeau said, "if he was isolated at 12 feet or at the elbow, you had to keep your 'big' on the weak side. There was no way you could get him across the lane. Now that you can bring your big over to the strong side, elbow isolations become jump-shot plays. And there's usually four shooters on the floor, at a minimum, and some teams have five."

Feel free to disagree with one of the NBA's best defensive minds.

WTF is your point? This has been explained to you over and over and over here, and why this is NOT a true zone defense, and you still can't get it?

And you just now even acknowledge the first part of it when a coach says it?

You are a nut.

[Euroleague]

Makes sense.

Hand checking vs Zone rules have always been a give or take dynamic

Except that NBA does not allow zone defense.

It's absolutely amazing that people don't even know what a zone defense is on a basketball forum.

[Euroleague]

[QUOTE=3ball]http://grantland.com/features/packing-paint-nba-defensive-strategy-forcing-coaches-rethink-their-offense/

[Milbuck]

The NBA does not allow zone defense. STOP TROLLING and stop posting ridiculous articles like that.
The NBA's zone is a more complex, modified version of the European zone. It's better but still a zone nonetheless.

[Euroleague]

Today's defensive 3 seconds rule requires defenders to stay out of the lane, unless they are within "armslength" of an opponent.. http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html

The original rule from 1982 was different, and ALLOWED defenders to camp in the paint: (http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html)


1981-82
"Defender on post player is allowed in defensive three-second area (A post player is any player adjacent to paint)".

So just by substituting the rule's own parenthetical reference, the rule translates EXACTLY to: "Defender on player adjacent to the paint is allowed in defensive 3 second area."


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/b209aeddf6bfaaa9fcaed8eea3c72c65.gif


in this clip, Klay Thompson's dad (#43 in the middle of lane) would get a tech after 3 seconds in today's game because his man is out of "armslength".... but back then, he was legal because his man was "adjacent to the paint", which was the only requirement at the time - notice how there is no need for Thompson to tippy-toe in and out of the paint.


in previous eras, guys didn't have to worry about staying out of the lane or tippy-toeing - the 3 seconds rule was very simple back then: as long as their man was "adjacent to the paint", defenders could stay in the lane... so usually, they could camp in the lane for the entire possession because the paint is huge, and "adjacent to the paint" covers a ton of ground... Furthermore, "adjacent to the paint" could mean right next to the paint, a few feet outside the paint, or all the way out to the 3-point line - defenders routinely camped in the paint while their man was behind the 3-point line (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10695139&postcount=1).

contrastingly, today's rule makes sure defenders can physically touch their man to stay in the lane, by requiring defenders be within "armslength" of an opponent - since players that are outside, or "adjacent to the paint", are out of armslength to defenders inside the paint, players in today's game are not allowed to stay in the lane if their man is outside the paint.
.

Exactly. This is the difference between illegal defense rules (no zone allowed) and the current rules of defensive 3 seconds (no zone allowed).

These absolute MORONS calling the current rules "easier" or "zone defense" are unbelievable...........good GOD.

Freaking play a damn JUNIOR high school basketball game and this shit is even obvious.

The old rules were not zone and were HARDER to score against.

the new rules are NOT zone and are EASIER to score against.

Anyone saying anything to the contrary of that is a freaking idiot and does not know even the most basic rules of basketball.

[Euroleague]

Prime example of why that's bullshit:

http://i.minus.com/iHwd5KuplF3Ml.gif

Jordan had to beat 2 traps/doubles (including one where the Knicks sent their PF or one of their 'bigs' to cut off his baseline drive)... only for him to be met at the basket by a 7 ft shot blocker because there was no 3-sec rule.

And if you watch the whole possession, the Bulls had to beat a full court trap zone to even get the ball past half court:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=330HeLlv52U

So again... what the f*ck is Thibs talking about? :confusedshrug:

It's because he already had the ball in his hands.

[Euroleague]

Exactly... this was a huge advantage for 80s-90s scorers... allowed you to have many one-on-one situations.... I mean literally speaking, like if you faced your man up and looked behind him there was no wall there behind ready to contest & take charges, you blew by your man and it was over, defenders could only then run in to help/contest the easy basket which is a whole bit harder...

Illegal defense was a bit different to say the least....

...and while fans think handchecking made it tougher for players to score, i think it actually HELPED if you were a bigger/stronger guy, why? Because you as an offensive player were allowed to counter that physically with your own hands & body aswell, you could get away with many more elbow/off-hand push ofs, body riding and you could slap the defenders arms away from your vicinity (like Jordan used to do alot).... so if you were strong/athletic (and smart) as Jordan no guy at your position was really at an advantage....

Jordan was great, but this indeed helped alot....

You fail at basic logic.

[Euroleague]

Great article. Pretty much settles the thread.

What this thread has confirmed is that a whole lot of people here never played basketball at any level in their life.

You are one of them.

[La Frescobaldi]

You fail at basic logic.
I noticed that too. It's amazing what some of these guys think :lol

[Euroleague]

The NBA's zone is a more complex, modified version of the European zone. It's better but still a zone nonetheless.

Another clown that does not even know what a zone defense is.

[Dr.J4ever]

3ball, I copy pasted below the link on the 1981-82 rule that you posted, and this is what it says:

"1981-82
• Zone defense rules clarified with new rules for Illegal Defensive Alignments.
a. Weak side defenders may come in the pro lane (16’), but not in the college lane (12’) for more than three seconds.
b. Defender on post player is allowed in defensive three-second area (A post player is any player adjacent to paint area).
c. Player without ball may not be double-teamed from weak side."

Please elaborate. Letter B is the same as today. You are allowed to be in the lane as long as you're guarding someone. However, in the past, you couldn't come over from the weak side like Thibs said.

Of course, I will allow that calls by refs tended to be inconsistent, at times

Also today, you are allowed in the paint WITHOUT GUARDING ANYONE for up to 3 seconds.

[Dr.J4ever]

The NBA does not allow zone defense. STOP TROLLING and stop posting ridiculous articles like that.

GTFO of this thread, EL!

[andgar923]

[QUOTE=Dr.J4ever]3ball, I copy pasted below the link on the 1981-82 rule that you posted, and this is what it says:

"1981-82

[andgar923]

GTFO of this thread, EL!
But he's right.

Anybody that knows basic basketball will tell you the NBA doesn't play a true zone. Even then, it isn't used at all.

Different posters have already exposed how little the zones are actually used in the NBA today (or so called zone). Different rules simply disallow for a true zone to be played.

[ralph_i_el]

Prime example of why that's bullshit:

http://i.minus.com/iHwd5KuplF3Ml.gif

Jordan had to beat 2 traps/doubles (including one where the Knicks sent their PF or one of their 'bigs' to cut off his baseline drive)... only for him to be met at the basket by a 7 ft shot blocker because there was no 3-sec rule.

And if you watch the whole possession, the Bulls had to beat a full court trap zone to even get the ball past half court:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=330HeLlv52U

So again... what the f*ck is Thibs talking about? :confusedshrug:

when your own offensive player is between you and the bucket...a defender will be between you and the bucket. That isn't era specific. Someone has to defend a man under the bucket or it's a free score. What don't you understand about that? In your clip the 3 second rule wouldn't even apply because the guy that contested MJ was in the paint guarding his own man.


We have a bunch of nostalgia blind folks in this thread who refuse to understand how defense is more free to play zone and aggressively double team today, AND perimeter players don't have to deal with handchecking BUT they do have to watch their spacing and be able to shoot from distance or they **** up the offense without even touching the ball. There is no more sending 3 guys to one side of the court and having them twiddle their ****ing thumbs (because they have to be defended even if they aren't a threat while your best two offensive players work to get a 1-on-1.


Here's what the winningest coach in NBA history has to say:

"The game seems to flow better under those rules," says Nelson. "It's not as control-oriented as the pros have become. It's more, `Let's play basketball.' It allows any defense, so it's like a throwback. Our illegal defense is a main culprit. We can put one or two players away from the goal and play half-court, three-man and dictate how to play until the double team comes and then the ball is passed out and shot.

[3ball]

b. Defender on post player is allowed in defensive three-second area (A post player is any player adjacent to paint area).


You have trolled me hard here and now i'm pissed.

I have posted (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10866782&postcount=121) the old and new defensive 3 seconds rules itt several times and explained the difference, but you apparently didn't read the posts, because here you are reciting the rules to me and completely ignoring what the rules actually say.

The old rule (bolded above) says defenders can stay in the lane if their man is "ADJACENT TO THE PAINT", while the new rule says defenders can only stay in the lane if their man is within "ARMSLENGTH" (here's the link (http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html) to the "armslength" language - it's the 2nd sentence in the first paragraph).

"Adjacent" and "armslength" don't mean the same thing - do you think they do?... The "armslength" language from the new rule forces today's defenders to tippy-toe in and out of the lane on a continual basis to remain within physical reach - previous eras didn't have to tippy-toe because defenders could stay in the lane even if their man was OUT of armslength reach, as long as they were still "adjacent to the paint".

Here's a GIF where Bill Cartwright is out of "armslength" reach of long-armed Mark Eaton, so Eaton would get a tech after 3 seconds in today's game.... but back then, Eaton was fine because Cartwright was "adjacent to the paint"... notice how Eaton could care less about a tippy-toe.

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/d6c47d055cfff266f26bde61297986cf.gif

btw, how is it that you are content to argue your case without offering ANY viewable evidence?... you say today's defenses have equal paint defense, but you can't show it visually... otoh, for me, i've gotten pretty efficient at it - it takes me less than 90 seconds to both find and create a GIF of defenders camping under the rim in previous eras... after all, it happened on literally every possession.

[The_Pharcyde]

You have trolled me hard here and now i'm pissed.

I have posted (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10866782&postcount=121) the old and new defensive 3 seconds rules itt several times and explained the difference, but you apparently didn't read the posts, because here you are reciting the rules to me and completely ignoring what the rules actually say.

The old rule (bolded above) says defenders can stay in the lane if their man is "ADJACENT TO THE PAINT", while the new rule says defenders can only stay in the lane if their man is within "ARMSLENGTH" (here's the link (http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html) to the "armslength" language - it's the 2nd sentence in the first paragraph).

"Adjacent" and "armslength" don't mean the same thing - do you think they do?... The "armslength" language from the new rule forces today's defenders to tippy-toe in and out of the lane on a continual basis to remain within physical reach - previous eras didn't have to tippy-toe because defenders could stay in the lane even if their man was OUT of armslength reach, but still "adjacent to the paint".

Here's a GIF where Bill Cartwright is out of "armslength" reach of long-armed Mark Eaton, so Eaton would get a tech after 3 seconds in today's game.... but back then, Eaton was fine because Cartwright was "adjacent to the paint".

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/d6c47d055cfff266f26bde61297986cf.gif

btw, how is it that you are content to argue your case without offering ANY viewable evidence?... you say today's defenses have equal paint defense, but you can't show it visually... otoh, for me, i've gotten pretty efficient at it - it takes me less than 90 seconds to both find and create a GIF of defenders camping under the rim in previous eras.

would you ever send me the file of all your gifs.???

[3ball]

would you ever send me the file of all your gifs.???
pm'd
.

[3ball]

.
Here's what ACTUALLY happened in previous eras when Jordan caught it on the elbow:


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/573113292e852dcb8f5fe242c53e3982.gif


Think you can beat that Thibbs?... Keep dreaming.. Such defense is impossible in today's game.

The NBA said many times that they instituted rules like defensive 3 seconds to "open up the game"... "allow more freedom of movement"... and "make passing and cutting easier".

The aforementioned rule changes and the inception of spacing strategy did indeed open up the game.. Accordingly, new defensive strategies were needed to maintain defensive effectiveness... if Thibbs hadn't come up with something to mitigate defensive 3 seconds and guard the larger surface area caused by 3-pointers, someone else would have.

Thibbs deserves credit, but his strategies would've been developed at some point anyway, because the rule changes & spacing necessitated it.. GM Daryl Morey says just that:

[andgar923]

3Ball, Im surprised you didn't use more NY Knick gifs perhaps the best defensive team ever.

They were the Bad Boys 2.0 the evolution of the Jordan Rules. They signed players with the sole purpose to stop MJ. They took the Pistons' playbook and Riley instituted a system that broke all rules. He pushed the button on physicality and toughness and didn't back down, refs just said "f*ck it!" and let them play. The Knicks were smarter, tougher, dirtier and more athletic than any defensive team perhaps ever.

Not only did you have to fight through great perimeter All Defensive specialists that were tough, you then had to go through Mason, Oakley, Xman, Smith, only to be met by Ewing. What other team had that?

That's like some American Gladiator gauntlet shit right there.

Zone rules? they played Zone!

They broke all rules.

So the rules said big man can't trap... pfft... Riley said "F*ck you!" and sent Ewing anyways, DARED the refs to call anything.

Rules may have stated that a player can't be doubled without the ball, and Riley wiped his ass with that rule.

But forget about the Knicks... almost every single team employed similar Jordan Rules tactics to stop him. Every team cheated the system and refs just swallowed their whistle. Replace all the MJ gifs with other players and teams and you'll see tougher defense than what's played today.

[ralph_i_el]

hey 3ball, why don't you post 50 more .gifs of Jordan playing with half his own teammates in the paint, and then act like those are even applicable to what we're talking about?

[Rose'sACL]

hey 3ball, why don't you post 50 more .gifs of Jordan playing with half his own teammates in the paint, and then act like those are even applicable to what we're talking about?
he is such an idiot. i have no idea why people keep arguing with him. he doesn't understand any rule relating to defense at all.

[3ball]

.
PLAYOFF AVERAGES THRU 30 YRS OLD:

JORDAN: 35 PPG / 7 APG / 50% FG
LEBRON: 28 PPG / 6 APG / 48% FG


FINALS AVERAGES THRU 30 YRS OLD:

JORDAN: 36 PPG / 8 APG / 50% FG
LEBRON: 24 PPG / 6 APG / 46% FG

Source: basketball-reference.com


MJ CAREER AVERAGE: 33.4 PPG

.

[3ball]

Thibbs developed his methodologies in the mid-late 2000's FOR spacing, to COMBAT spacing.. this is a fact... he would never have came up with these defenses in the 80's or 90's when there was no spacing and guys could camp in the lane.

when guys could camp in the lane, they didn't have to move out of the paint when the ball was swung like they must do today - they could just move their head and body like a swivel chair...

and certainly, it makes sense that swinging the ball would be less effective in previous eras before the new rules in 2005 designed to "make passing and cutting easier"... "open up the game"... and "allow for more freedom of movement".
.

[3ball]

Jordan playing with half his own teammates in the paint.... are those even applicable to what we're talking about?


you don't think spacing makes it easier for offensive players?

:wtf:





hey 3ball, why don't you post 50 more .gifs of Jordan playing [SIZE="4"]with half his own teammates in the paint


dude, in every single GIF i posted, there were bulls players behind the 3-point line, while everyone else camped in the lane... why don't you go back and take a 2nd look (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10866902&postcount=134)..

Also, why don't you check out some GIFs that are even more obvious in showing guys paint-camping while their man is behind the 3-point line (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10695139&postcount=1) - all the GIFs are from a single video - that's how easy they are to find.

you should know that all i'm really trying to do is show that defensive effectiveness has remained the same over the eras - it's just that people tend to think today's defenses are so much better, so to prove they are merely equal with previous eras, i have to bash today's defenses..

but i've made many a thread about how league-wide ORtg has remained stable over the years due to teams adjusting on both ends of the floor and rule changes taking away some things but adding others, so it all evens out, etc, etc.. that's my real stance on the issue - but in order to get that point across, i have to diminish today's overrated defenses.
.

[ralph_i_el]

3ball is like ice cream on asphalt...melting down.

[3ball]

.
Thibbs' strongside flood was only designed in the mid-late 2000's to combat spacing and the new rules - this is fact.. his strategies are not applicable to no-spacing environments.

Look at the no-spacing environment below: who thinks Thibbs would have conceived his methodologies back then in this environment?... Does anyone think the Pistons need to do Thibbs' strongside flood here and bring a defender over from the weakside?

That would be like telling a girl with FF's that she needs an enhancement.


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/573113292e852dcb8f5fe242c53e3982.gif


I posted this in the other thread, but i think it makes the point perfectly... Thibbs could only match this level of paint defense if he went back in time when guys didn't shoot 3's and defenders could camp in the lane without tippy-toeing (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10866902&postcount=134).
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[MiseryCityTexas]

I just came in here to look at all the Jordan Gifs

[ralph_i_el]

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Thibbs' strongside flood was only designed in the mid-late 2000's to combat spacing and the new rules - this is fact.. his strategies are not applicable to no-spacing environments.

Look at the no-spacing environment below: who thinks Thibbs would have conceived his methodologies back then in this environment?... Does anyone think the Pistons need to do Thibbs' strongside flood here and bring a defender over from the weakside?

That would be like telling a girl with FF's that she needs an enhancement.


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/573113292e852dcb8f5fe242c53e3982.gif


I posted this in the other thread, but i think it makes the point perfectly... Thibbs could only match this level of paint defense if he went back in time when guys didn't shoot 3's and defenders could camp in the lane without tippy-toeing (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10866902&postcount=134).
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This is the last time I will say this:

1. Your .gif's aren't applicable because defenses today could do the same shit if the offense chose to just clog up the paint. Spacing is more advanced today. Part of this is due to the lack of handchecking making it easier for smaller, more skilled perimeter players.

2. today's 3 second rule is super lax. Paint camping is pretty much allowed today if the offense is dumb enough to play 2 players who can't shoot past 18 ft. Otherwise camping the paint just gives the offense open jumpers. Watch any team without enough shooters and you will see this. Two years ago whenever John Wall tried to penetrate there would be 3 men in the paint waiting for him. Now the Wiz have shooters and the game is completely different.

[GimmeThat]

what I had a bit of a problem with regarding that statement.

is that it said that sometimes you had 4 or 5 shooters out on the floor

this is either complimenting the way bigs like Ewing played in which help spaced the floor.

or the reality is that many players back then simply took the 2's.


by the way, did you know that Chris Webber was actually a decent 3 point shooter in his college days.

but when he entered the NBA, due to the 3 point line being further back then college, who probably didn't so much focus on shooting the long ball. became more known for his long 2 which were just one step in of the 3 point line.

[3ball]

This is the last time I will say this:

1. Your .gif's aren't applicable because defenses today could do the same shit if the offense chose to just clog up the paint. Spacing is more advanced today. Part of this is due to the lack of handchecking making it easier for smaller, more skilled perimeter players.

2. today's 3 second rule is super lax. Paint camping is pretty much allowed today if the offense is dumb enough to play 2 players who can't shoot past 18 ft. Otherwise camping the paint just gives the offense open jumpers. Watch any team without enough shooters and you will see this. Two years ago whenever John Wall tried to penetrate there would be 3 men in the paint waiting for him. Now the Wiz have shooters and the game is completely different.
horseshit - today's rules show that you must be within armslength of your man to stay in the lane, which is 3 feet, since a man's arm is 3 feet long... this is what causes the tippy-toeing we see today because players must constantly be within 3 feet of their man to stay in the lane.

in previous eras, you could stay in the lane if your man was 3 feet outside the paint on either side, and the paint is 16 feet wide - naturally, players didn't have to tippy-toe and could just stand there in the paint.

so you're wrong - in previous eras, you could be up to 19 feet from your man and still stay in the lane, while in today's game you have to within 3 feet of your man to stay in the lane - the rules are in black and white.
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[Euroleague]

GTFO of this thread, EL!

You are an absolute moron.

[Kvnzhangyay]

horseshit - today's rules show that you must be within armslength of your man to stay in the lane, which is 3 feet, since a man's arm is 3 feet long... this is what causes the tippy-toeing we see today because players must constantly be within 3 feet of their man to stay in the lane.

in previous eras, you could stay in the lane if your man was 3 feet outside the paint on either side, and the paint is 16 feet wide - naturally, players didn't have to tippy-toe and could just stand there in the paint.

so you're wrong - in previous eras, you could be up to 19 feet from your man and still stay in the lane, while in today's game you have to within 3 feet of your man to stay in the lane - the rules are in black and white.
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while its true the rules are like that, it has to be factored in that as unfortunate as it is, refs don't always call exactly by the rules

[Blue&Orange]

1. Your .gif's aren't applicable because defenses today could do the same shit if the offense chose to just clog up the paint. Spacing is more advanced today. Part of this is due to the lack of handchecking making it easier for smaller, more skilled perimeter players

So what are you are arguing about? lol

Let's recapitulate,

Some idiot takes a quote of thibs out of context, the context being Thibs explaining how the rules change benefited the international players, you know the slow, white, unathletic ones, but somehow that quote proves that Jordan would have it hard today.

Idiots talk how defenses improved, ignoring the fact that offenses also improved.

Then this gem:
http://www.sbnation.com/2014/3/25/5542838/nba-rules-changes-lebron-james-michael-jordan

i'm gonna quote myself




That article is a bonanza of cherry picking screenshots. Anyone who writes an article trying to prove todays paint is more packed, is in two words, a colossal retard.


Today you have coaches that take away their bigs out of the game, Hibbert and Duncan (huge stupid mistake in my opinion), but nevertheless they did it, because they were to "slow" to protect the paint and somehow the paint is more packed today. The fact that the only angle favoring Lebron in that article is this stupid fantasy that paint is more packed today should definitely end this discussion.

Facts Vs delusion

And now apparently, "Spacing is more advanced today. Part of this is due to the lack of handchecking making it easier for smaller, more skilled perimeter players" is an argument against Jordan because you know if it it's easier to smaller skilled perimeter players, surely it would be harder for Jordan! :roll:


It's almost comical.


Anyone who thinks Jordan would have it harder today is retarded, Period. No gifs necessary.

[turnaroundJ]

So Mr. 3ball, you must admit that today's defenders and defensive schemes are simply better and have to put good effort because they CAN'T just camp in the paint like big logs. And they can't just lazily use their arms or hands to stop guys.

Doc said it best himself that they have to move their feet now. Which I think is great.

Also, I think the new defenses actually played a key part in the end of hero ball and the promotion of ball movement. You'd think that those no hand checking rule changes would promote hero ball, but wow look at today. Less hero ball than ever. And "combo guards" like Knight, Jennings and Walker are really looked down upon because of their playing styles despite being able to use the "new rules" to their advantage.

[3ball]

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in the GIF below, look specifically at horace grant under the rim - the rules in previous eras didn't require horace to stay within armslength (http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html) of his man, so he decides to stop under the rim and camp in the paint, instead of following his man toni kukocs out to the 3-point line in the far corner... as a result, horace is there waiting on MJ, and actually gets there AHEAD of time:


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/ff00eb05f6a2bc1d374e2727b50a5351.gif




otoh, look specifically at harrison barnes near the far corner below - durant must stay within armslength (http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html) of barnes to remain in the paint - so durant goes towards the edge of the paint to stay within "armslength", and consequently, he's late coming over.


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/270ad21b124fe5a38ae181bac30c0a8d.gif