Who is the GOAT of empty stats?

[BigBoss]

Long careers, great stats, but no rings.

Karl Malone?

Tracy Mcgrady?

Charles Barkely?

Carmelo Anthony?

[dubeta]

Kobe if he never met Shaq

[Micku]

Adrian Dantley. In 82 season:

30.3 ppg on 57%, 6.3 rpg, 4 apg, 63% TS

His team record was 27-55.

[Mass Debator]

Jerry Stackhouse

[Deuce Bigalow]

Wilt in '63

44.8 ppg, 24.3 rpg, 3.4 apg, 52.8 fg%

Led the league in games played, mpg, ppg, rpg, and fg%

31.8 per - the highest ever

Team went 31-49 and missed the playoffs

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Wilt, David Robinson, Dantley, Moses, Chuck and Lebron

[fourkicks44]

Mitch Richmond

[Cone]

kevin love. role player in disguise

[Rake2204]

http://millercards.net/im_qd_large/qd498.jpg

[Lebronxrings]

kobe, durant, melo, bosh, kyrie, love

[SouBeachTalents]

kobe, durant, melo, bosh, kyrie, love

No Wade?

[DatAsh]

Wilt and Dantley are probably the 2 best answers here. Wilt because coaches at the time had never seen a talent like Wilt, and didn't know how to utilize him; Dantley because of the way he played.

Wilt is also the most underrated superstar by far in my opinion. It really frustrates me to see him ranked in the bottom half of the top 10, something I'll never understand. Wilt at his best was Duncan with slightly better defense, much better rebounding, shooting 15% better from the field, and averaging as many assists as Lebron James, yet I still see people ranking him below Duncan for some reason. I guess I somewhat understand trolling and that he has polarizing fans on this site, but ranking him outside 1-4 just doesn't make sense to me considering what he was as a basketball player.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt in '63

44.8 ppg, 24.3 rpg, 3.4 apg, 52.8 fg%

Led the league in games played, mpg, ppg, rpg, and fg%

31.8 per - the highest ever

Team went 31-49 and missed the playoffs


Probably the greatest season ever by ONE player. Chamberlain led the league in FIFTEEN statistical categories, and had advanced stats like Offensive and Defensive rebounding, TRB%, blocked shots, etc, been recodred, and he would certainly have led in many more.

BTW, his TEAM, with ZERO surrounding talent, had a ppg differential of only -2.1, and lost 35 games by single digits (and were only involved in eight games decided by 20+ points, and went 4-4 in those.)

Furthermore, Chamberlain ran away with the WIN-SHARE mark that year, with a 20.9 rating, on a team that won 31 games. So Wilt was SINGLE-HANDEDLY responsible for 70% of his TEAM's wins.

How bad was that roster? They played SIXTEEN different players, and several only played a few games in their NBA careers.

You want an even better example. The Warriors new coach in 63-64, Alex Hannum, conducted a pre-season scrimmage, sans Wilt, with the veterans going against a cast of rookies and rejects. Guess which team won?

Oh, and WILT single-handedly carried THAT team to a 48-32 record and a Western Conference title. Then, in the WDF's, Chamberlain carried that team to a seven game series win over a Hawks team that was better, players 2-6, than what Chamberlain was surrounded with...in a series in which Chamberlain averaged 39 ppg, 23 rpg, and shot .559 from the field (in a post-season NBA that averaged 105.8 ppg on a .420 eFG%.)

True, his team lost to Russell's HOF-laden Celtics in the Finals (Boston had EIGHT HOFers), 4-1. BUT, the last two games were decided in the waning seconds, AND, Wilt just MURDERED Russell in that series. He outscored Russell, per game, 29.2 ppg to 11.2 ppg; outrebounded Russell, per game, 27.8 rpg to 25.2 rpg; and outshot Russell from the field by a .517 to .386 margin. The reality was, Russell was holding on for dear life that series.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Wilt and Dantley are probably the 2 best answers here. Wilt because coaches at the time had never seen a talent like Wilt, and didn't know how to utilize him; Dantley because of the way he played.

Wilt is also the most underrated superstar by far in my opinion. It really frustrates me to see him ranked in the bottom half of the top 10, something I'll never understand. Wilt at his best was Duncan with slightly better defense, much better rebounding, shooting 15% better from the field, and averaging as many assists as Lebron James, yet I still see people ranking him below Duncan for some reason. I guess I somewhat understand trolling and that he has polarizing fans on this site, but ranking him outside 1-4 just doesn't make sense to me considering what he was as a basketball player.
Wilt was never as good as Duncan on defense what r u smokin:biggums: :biggums:

[Magic731]

Adrian Dantley. In 82 season:

30.3 ppg on 57%, 6.3 rpg, 4 apg, 63% TS

His team record was 27-55.
Came to say this.

[Asukal]

The GOAT choker Wilt. :applause:

30ppg regular season career average. You can say wow amazing!

Then came the playoffs.... :rolleyes:

[mehyaM24]

between wilt and kobe, imo.

at least with wilt, he had some of his best rebounding and defensive years when the sixers and lakers were championship contenders. for all the praise kobe and his volume scoring received - his 2 scoring titles were achieved when the lakers were 1st round fodder - the perfect representation of "empty stats"

http://i56.tinypic.com/2h73u6e.jpg

[Beastmode88]

kobe, durant, melo, bosh, kyrie, love

looks like you forgot lebron without wade.

[mehyaM24]

The GOAT choker Wilt. :applause:
we agree there :cheers:

[DatAsh]

Wilt was never as good as Duncan on defense what r u smokin:biggums: :biggums:

Don't get me wrong, Duncan is one of the greatest defensive players ever, but Wilt was better. Do you think anyone would have been calling Duncan the best defensive player in a league with Bill Russell?

[DatAsh]

Probably the greatest season ever by ONE player. Chamberlain led the league in FIFTEEN statistical categories, and had advanced stats like Offensive and Defensive rebounding, TRB%, blocked shots, etc, been recodred, and he would certainly have led in many more.

BTW, his TEAM, with ZERO surrounding talent, had a ppg differential of only -2.1, and lost 35 games by single digits (and were only involved in eight games decided by 20+ points, and went 4-4 in those.)

Furthermore, Chamberlain ran away with the WIN-SHARE mark that year, with a 20.9 rating, on a team that won 31 games. So Wilt was SINGLE-HANDEDLY responsible for 70% of his TEAM's wins.

How bad was that roster? They played SIXTEEN different players, and several only played a few games in their NBA careers.

You want an even better example. The Warriors new coach in 63-64, Alex Hannum, conducted a pre-season scrimmage, sans Wilt, with the veterans going against a cast of rookies and rejects. Guess which team won?

Oh, and WILT single-handedly carried THAT team to a 48-32 record and a Western Conference title. Then, in the WDF's, Chamberlain carried that team to a seven game series win over a Hawks team that was better, players 2-6, than what Chamberlain was surrounded with...in a series in which Chamberlain averaged 39 ppg, 23 rpg, and shot .559 from the field (in a post-season NBA that averaged 105.8 ppg on a .420 eFG%.)

True, his team lost to Russell's HOF-laden Celtics in the Finals (Boston had EIGHT HOFers), 4-1. BUT, the last two games were decided in the waning seconds, AND, Wilt just MURDERED Russell in that series. He outscored Russell, per game, 29.2 ppg to 11.2 ppg; outrebounded Russell, per game, 27.8 rpg to 25.2 rpg; and outshot Russell from the field by a .517 to .386 margin. The reality was, Russell was holding on for dear life that series.

That's not even close to the best season by any player ever, that belongs to Wilt in 1967.

[Asukal]

we agree there :cheers:

Were enemies but ok. :cheers:

[LAZERUSS]

That's not even close to the best season by any player ever, that belongs to Wilt in 1967.

Perhaps not...but just for arguments sake, in 62-63, Wilt ran away with the scoring title, easily won the rebounding title, and set a then record FG% mark. For a TEAM that went 31-49. Three years later Wilt again led the league in scoring, rebounding, and set a then record FG%... on a team that had the BEST record in the league. What changed?

[LAZERUSS]

The GOAT choker Wilt. :applause:

30ppg regular season career average. You can say wow amazing!

Then came the playoffs.... :rolleyes:

Wilt "the choker" in MUST WIN games...


Wilt's numbers in those 23 games...13 of which came against HOF starting centers.

12-11 W-L record

31.1 ppg (Regular season career average was 30.1 ppg)
26.1 rpg (Regular season career average was 22.9 rpg)
3.4 apg (Regular season career average was 4.4 apg)
.540 FG% (Regular season career average was .540 FG%) And that FG% was about 10% over the post-season league in that same span BTW.


3 games of 50+ points (the ONLY MUST-WIN 50+ point games in NBA playoff history BTW.)

5 games of 40+ points (including a Finals 40+ elimination game)

13 games of 30+ points

6 games of 30+ rebounds

20 games of 20+ rebounds

And again, a prime "scoring" Wilt played in 52 playoff games....30 of which were against Russell. And in those, he outscored his opposing starting center in 50 of them,...and some by staggering margins (e.g. 53-7.)

And in those 52 games, he AVERAGED 32.8 ppg, 26.7 rpg, and shot .505 from the field (in NBA post-seasons that shot less than .420 in that same span.)

Hell, up thru his greatest season, 66-67, Wilt played in 67 playoff games, and outscored his opposing center in 63 of them. And in the process, he AVERAGED 30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg., 4.5 apg, shot .515 from the field (in post-seasons that had an eFG% of about .420 in that same span), and likely blocked 8+ shots per game.

Give me a LIST of GOAT's who had even ONE SERIES in which they averaged a 30-27-5-8 .515 (and yes, shooting 10% over the league average), much less over the course of their first 67 straight games. Hell, you would be hard-pressed to find a GOAT candidate who had even ONE GAME with that stat-line.

Wilt "the choker"...

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[Deuce Bigalow]

between wilt and kobe, imo.

at least with wilt, he had some of his best rebounding and defensive years when the sixers and lakers were championship contenders. for all the praise kobe and his volume scoring received - his 2 scoring titles were achieved when the lakers were 1st round fodder - the perfect representation of "empty stats"

http://i56.tinypic.com/2h73u6e.jpg
Kobe's best playoff runs came during the years the Lakers won championships or went to the finals

01: 29/7/6 56ts (ring)
08: 30/6/6 58ts (finals loss)
09: 30/5/6 56ts (ring)
10: 29/6/6 57ts (ring)

His 09 playoffs is the highest PER of his playoff career btw. Lakers won the title in 09.

What about the Lakers 10-3 playoff record when Kobe scores 40 points? Including 4 of them coming in the 09 playoffs alone where the Lakers won all of them and won the title that year.

Empty stats when youre winning championships? Lol

[LAZERUSS]

Kobe's best playoff runs came during the years the Lakers won championships or went to the finals

01: 29/7/6 56ts (ring)
08: 30/6/6 58ts (finals loss)
09: 30/5/6 56ts (ring)
10: 29/6/6 57ts (ring)

His 09 playoffs is the highest PER of his playoff career btw. Lakers won the title in 09.

What about the Lakers 10-3 playoff record when Kobe scores 40 points? Including 4 of them coming in the 09 playoffs alone where the Lakers won all of them and won the title that year.

Empty stats when youre winning championships? Lol

Kobe is the KING of Finals' Choking, though. NO question about it.


99-00
Regular season 22.5 ppg .468 FG%
Finals 15.6 ppg .367 FG%
Last Game of Series .296 FG%

00-01
Regular season 28.5 ppg .464 FG%
Finals 24.6 ppg .415 FG%
Last Game of Series .389 FG%

01-02
Regular season 25.2 ppg .469
Finals 26.8 ppg .514 FG%
Last Game of Series .438 FG%

03-04
Regular season 24.0 ppg .438 FG%
Finals 22.6 ppg .381 FG%
Last Game of Series .333 FG%

07-08
Regular season 28.3 ppg .459 FG%
Finals 25.7 ppg .405 FG%
Last Game of Series .318 FG%

08-09
Regular season 26.8 ppg .467 FG%
Finals 32.4 ppg .430 FG%
Last Game of Series .435 FG%

09-10
Regular season 27.0 ppg .456 FG%
Finals 28.6 ppg .405 FG%
Last Game of Series .250 FG%


Other noteables:


97-98
Swept by Utah 4-0.
Kobe averages 10.0 ppg on a .367 FG%

98-99
Swept by San Antonio 4-0
Last game of the series : Kobe 16 points on a .438 FG%

02-03
Lose to Spurs in WCF's, 4-2.
Last game loss by a score of 110-82 (Kobe with 20 points in a season in which he averaged 30 ppg)

03-04 Finals
Heavily favored Lakers lose to Pistons, 4-1.
In the clinching game five loss Kobe shoots .333 in a 100-87 loss (and LA was down 23 going into 4th quarter)

04-05
Team goes 34-48 and misses playoffs

05-06
Regular season 35.4 ppg .450
Playoffs 27.9 ppg .497
Last game (7) 24 points in a 121-90 loss (after blowing a 3-1 series lead)

06-07
Team goes 42-40
Loses in first round to Suns, 4-1.
Last game of that series, Kobe shoots .394 from the floor

07-08
Lakers are blown out by Celts in Finals.
In game four the Lakers blow a 23 point lead, and lose, in a game in which Kobe shot .316 from the field.
In the clinching game six loss, the Lakers lose by a Finals record margin of 131-92. Kobe shoots .318 from the floor.

10-11
Lakers with HCA are swept by the Mavs, 4-0.
In the clinching game four loss, LA loses 122-86. Kobe shoots .389 from the field.

PATHETIC...

[LAZERUSS]

Kobe in his "must-win" playoff games...


Kobe in 18:

22.0 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 3.4 apg, .416 FG%

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Kobe.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe's best playoff series of his career

2001 2nd Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs Sacramento Kings

35.0 ppg 9.0 rpg 4.3 apg 47%fg 20%3P 86%FT

2001 3rd Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs San Antonio Spurs

33.3 ppg 7.0 rpg 7.0 apg 51%fg 36%3P 77%FT

2003 1st Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs Minnesota Timberwolves

31.8 ppg 5.2 rpg 6.7 apg 43%fg 36%3P 87%FT

2008 1st Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs Denver Nuggets

33.5 ppg 5.3 rpg 6.3 apg 50%fg 33%3P 74%FT

2008 2nd Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs Utah Jazz

33.2 ppg 7.0 rpg 7.2 apg 49%fg 21%3P 83%FT

2008 3rd Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs San Antonio Spurs

29.2 ppg 5.6 rpg 3.8 apg 53%fg 33%3P 91%FT

2009 3rd Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs Denver Nuggets

34.0 ppg 5.8 rpg 5.8 apg 48%fg 34%3P 93%FT

2009 NBA Finals Kobe Bryant vs Orlando Magic

32.4 ppg 5.6 rpg 7.4 apg 43%fg 36%3P 84%FT

2010 2nd Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs Utah Jazz

32.0 ppg 3.8 rpg 5.8 apg 52%fg 25%3P 87%FT

2010 3rd Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs Phoenix Suns

33.7ppg 7.2 rpg 8.3 apg 52%fg 43%3P 88%FT

ALL SERIES WINS

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe is the KING of Finals' Choking, though. NO question about it.



PATHETIC...
Kobe: 5/7 .714

Wilt: 2/6 .333

Largest SINGLE Finals PPG drop-offs in history:
1. Lebron James, 2011: -8.9 ppg (26.7 season, 17.8 finals)
2. Wilt Chamberlain, 1969: -8.8 ppg (20.5 season, 11.7 finals)
3. Wilt Chamberlain, 1964: -7.7 ppg (36.9 season, 29.2 finals)

Who has the highest CAREER Finals PPG drop-off in history?
Wilt at -11.5

Who has the highest CAREER PLAYOFF DROP-OFF IN HISTORY?
Wilt at -7.6

Next

[atljonesbro]

Early years Jordan was the ultimate empty stat guy.

[DFish24]

Kobe's best playoff series of his career

2001 2nd Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs Sacramento Kings

35.0 ppg 9.0 rpg 4.3 apg 47%fg 20%3P 86%FT

2001 3rd Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs San Antonio Spurs

33.3 ppg 7.0 rpg 7.0 apg 51%fg 36%3P 77%FT

2003 1st Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs Minnesota Timberwolves

31.8 ppg 5.2 rpg 6.7 apg 43%fg 36%3P 87%FT

2008 1st Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs Denver Nuggets

33.5 ppg 5.3 rpg 6.3 apg 50%fg 33%3P 74%FT

2008 2nd Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs Utah Jazz

33.2 ppg 7.0 rpg 7.2 apg 49%fg 21%3P 83%FT

2008 3rd Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs San Antonio Spurs

29.2 ppg 5.6 rpg 3.8 apg 53%fg 33%3P 91%FT

2009 3rd Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs Denver Nuggets

34.0 ppg 5.8 rpg 5.8 apg 48%fg 34%3P 93%FT

2009 NBA Finals Kobe Bryant vs Orlando Magic

32.4 ppg 5.6 rpg 7.4 apg 43%fg 36%3P 84%FT

2010 2nd Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs Utah Jazz

32.0 ppg 3.8 rpg 5.8 apg 52%fg 25%3P 87%FT

2010 3rd Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs Phoenix Suns

33.7ppg 7.2 rpg 8.3 apg 52%fg 43%3P 88%FT

ALL SERIES WINS

Those stats:eek: Jordanesque:pimp:

[Sarcastic]

Early years Jordan was the ultimate empty stat guy.


Bulls missed the playoffs 6 straight years before Jordan showed up and gave them his empty stats.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Bulls missed the playoffs 6 straight years before Jordan showed up and gave them his empty stats.
He's a troll ...

Anyway, the most empty stat guy I've ever seen is Kevin Love. In terms of the box score stuffing's impact on winning games.

[Micku]

Wilt and Dantley are probably the 2 best answers here. Wilt because coaches at the time had never seen a talent like Wilt, and didn't know how to utilize him; Dantley because of the way he played.

Wilt is also the most underrated superstar by far in my opinion. It really frustrates me to see him ranked in the bottom half of the top 10, something I'll never understand. Wilt at his best was Duncan with slightly better defense, much better rebounding, shooting 15% better from the field, and averaging as many assists as Lebron James, yet I still see people ranking him below Duncan for some reason. I guess I somewhat understand trolling and that he has polarizing fans on this site, but ranking him outside 1-4 just doesn't make sense to me considering what he was as a basketball player.

I'm shocked that you didn't expand on Dantley more. Dantley used to score very efficiently, but didn't really do that much else. In 30 for 30 documentary, you got to see how he wanted to be more in charge of the team. He wanted more plays called for him, he didn't like how Chuck Daly would call him out in the 4th for Rodman's defense (he even refused to trade in for Rodman in the middle of the game, so Rodman had to be called back to the bench), and he didn't like Isiah being the leader of the team. As soon as he got traded, the team got better.

And it is really amazing with Adrian Dantley. He is underrated in terms of one of the best scorers ever. He is one of the few ppl in NBA history to score 30 ppg on 57%. That's Shaq and Kareem scoring numbers and efficiency for a perimeter player. And his TS% is one of the best, if not the best, for the scoring volume in his prime. Yet, it did not translate to wins. But it doesn't mean that his team never made it to the playoffs or anything with him as the leader/best player of the team.

In 1984, his team was the second best record in the West, but got knocked out by the Suns. Adrian Dantley is/was an afterthought of the 80s. He is more of an afterthought than George Gervin, and probably Alex English, but less than Kiki Vandeweghe. Adrian Dantley is probably the most efficient perimeter player with volume. Dantley, Jordan and Gervin (early 80s) were the best scorers of the perimeter. And yet, 2/3 of them are more afterthoughts because they didn't win.

[mehyaM24]

Early years Jordan was the ultimate empty stat guy.

an underrated choice. i feel that kobe and wilt have him beat in that regard - but i wouldn't argue with anyone that chooses jordan. the interesting thing about him is that he would often go to scorers tables to check on his assist numbers (one of the reasons i dont think his passing was conducive to winning). not many superstars, or so called ALL TIME greats would go as far to consistently check up on their stats, just so they could say they got a triple-double.

jordan's scoring was nice. one of the greatest volume scorers in history - without pippen and phil jackson however, his production never amounted to anything when it COUNTED MOST - the postseason. jordan led his bulls to a miserable 1-9 record (no other top 10 player failed to have a below .500 record, in the playoffs, to start their careers)

so yes - jordan is a dark horse here. good mention.

[chazzy]

RoundMoundOfReb
When did you decide to give up on posting well?

[JT123]

Kobe.
This. I was at the Lakers/Warriors game the other night, and witnessed Kobe put up a very empty 28 points. Kobe has been putting up empty stats all season, but witnessing it in person has convinced me that Kobe will likely put up the emptiest stats in NBA history this season.
Dude went on a scoring barrage in the 3rd quarter, but it honestly had no effect on the game since he was letting Thompson and Barnes light him up on the other end of the court. Then as expected he vanishes like a ninja in the 4th quarter when his team needed him most. :lol

[Cold soul]

Kevin Love
Karl Malone

[KyleKong]

Wilt in '63

44.8 ppg, 24.3 rpg, 3.4 apg, 52.8 fg%

Led the league in games played, mpg, ppg, rpg, and fg%

31.8 per - the highest ever

Team went 31-49 and missed the playoffs
:biggums:

[Andrei89]

Kirby

[masonanddixon]

Shareef Abdul rahim, hands down

[Artillery]

Kobe, Wilt, Love, Dantley, Malone, Stackhouse

[NZStreetBaller]

where is Allen iverson???

[L.A. Jazz]

There is no such thing as empty stats. maybe some good scorers werent great in the clutch or whatever, but it's hard to get points/rebounds/... in the NBA. the stats arent empty, but as you keep getting reminded they dont tell the whole story.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Don't really agree with that whole "concept" to its fullest, but going by my idea of it:

Adrian Dantley
Nate Archibald
younger Wilt Chamberlain
James Harden
...
Also gotta mention LeBron James because of his stat-padding ways but mostly because of his fans always mentioning stats and efficiency...
I can even say Michael Jordan at some point in his younger days...




There is no such thing as empty stats. maybe some good scorers werent great in the clutch or whatever, but it's hard to get points/rebounds/... in the NBA. the stats arent empty, but as you keep getting reminded they dont tell the whole story.

Yes, I agree with plenty of that but things like:
defense (besides steals and blocks);
on and off court chemistry;
ability to keep teammates involved, while being able to play in different "ways";
basketball IQ and great fundamentals (things like boxing-out, setting the right pick/screen, not holding on to the ball, making the right pass, wasting little motion, so on...);
clutchness;
...
are also very important and don't appear on the (raw) stat-sheet.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Wilt, David Robinson, Dantley, Moses, Chuck and Lebron

Chuck? :confusedshrug: Not really...

Moses?
Yea, I know all about the stat-padding his rebounds "thing", but the man was just a fierce rebounder and one of the GOAT's at that, plus in his (short) prime he was taking teams to the Finals who had little business being there, or to greater records than they should (winning MVP's), then when he was paired up with great teammates, he won the title and FMVP, winning 65 regular-season games and only losing once in the Playoffs, in a stacked league.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Adrian Dantley. In 82 season:

30.3 ppg on 57%, 6.3 rpg, 4 apg, 63% TS

His team record was 27-55.

Didn't have the best teammates and can't deny he's one of the GOAT scorers, but he couldn't care less about defense or defensive rebounding, was a poor teammate on and off the court, could pass the ball but turned many times into a black-hole, not know as being clutch, took away from teammates' games...


Wilt in '63

44.8 ppg, 24.3 rpg, 3.4 apg, 52.8 fg%

Led the league in games played, mpg, ppg, rpg, and fg%

31.8 per - the highest ever

Team went 31-49 and missed the playoffs

Coach didn't know how to ulitize him properly and the teammates weren't all that plus he's obviously one of the GOAT's, still can call him a stat-padder, not really clutch, couldn't "figure out" what to do in order to get wins, below average FT shooter...



I'll add Tiny Archibald in 1973:

34.0 PPG - 1st in the league

11.4 APG - 1st in the league

36-46 record - 7th lowest, no Playoffs

Kings were the Nate the Skate show, team was all his, coach let him do whatever he wanted to and played him major minutes (even Tiny said he didn't like all of that, later on), and the dude was just a tremendous baller but known ball-hog and shot-jacker, who played little D.


You can also mention Kevin Love's last season, even though his teammates weren't good AT ALL, in a stacked conference.

[LAZERUSS]

Don't really agree with that whole "concept" to its fullest, but going by my idea of it:

Adrian Dantley
Nate Archibald
younger Wilt Chamberlain
James Harden
...
Also gotta mention LeBron James because of his stat-padding ways but mostly because of his fans always mentioning stats and efficiency...
I can even say Michael Jordan at some point in his younger days...





Yes, I agree with plenty of that but things like:
defense (besides steals and blocks);
on and off court chemistry;
ability to keep teammates involved, while being able to play in different "ways";
basketball IQ and great fundamentals (things like boxing-out, setting the right pick/screen, not holding on to the ball, making the right pass, wasting little motion, so on...);
clutchness;
...
are also very important and don't appear on the (raw) stat-sheet.


Yep...younger Wilt.

All he did was to take the same exact LAST PLACE roster he inherited to a then franchise-best record of 49-26, and to the EDF's where he slaughtered Russell in a six game series loss. And had he not badly injured his hand in a game two melee, and was nearly useless in game three, they likely would have once again, pushed Boston to the brink.

Two years later he single-handedly took took that same roster, the core of which was now older and worse, thru the first round of the playoffs, which included a must-win 56-35 elimination game, and then to a game seven, two point loss against the HOF-laden 60-20 Celtics.

We already know that he had ZERO help in 62-63. However, does ANYONE in their right mind believe that he would not have won a title that year had he swapped rosters with Russell and his EIGHT HOF teammates?

And in the 63-64 season, he again took what essentially had been a 31-49 team, to a 48-32 record, and then past a much more talented Hawks team in the first round, and with a 39-23 .559 series, which included a game seven of 39-26-10 19-29 FG/FGA game. And while his TEAM lost to Russell and his SEVEN HOF teammates in the Finals, he at least murdered Russell in the process.

How about his 64-65 season. He was "traded" at mid-season (in a panic move) for three players and a boatload of cash to a team that had gone 34-46 the year before and missed the playoffs. They finished 40-40, but behind Wilt's dominance, they wiped out Oscar's stacked 48-32 Royals in the first round. Then, in the EDF's, Chamberlain absolutely carpet-bombs Russell with arguably the greatest beating ever by one GOAT upon another, in a seven game series in which his team loses game seven by one point to a Celtic team that went 62-18 and was at the peak of their dynasty. All he did in that series was hang a 30-31 .555 series on Russell, which included a game seven of 30-32 on 80% shooting from the floor.

Yep...EMPTY stats.

I guess you could use that same anology with Bird in his rookie season, as well then, right? Or in his '82, '83, '85, '87, '88, seasons, too, right?

[Nevaeh]

an underrated choice. i feel that kobe and wilt have him beat in that regard - but i wouldn't argue with anyone that chooses jordan. the interesting thing about him is that he would often go to scorers tables to check on his assist numbers (one of the reasons i dont think his passing was conducive to winning). not many superstars, or so called ALL TIME greats would go as far to consistently check up on their stats, just so they could say they got a triple-double.

jordan's scoring was nice. one of the greatest volume scorers in history - without pippen and phil jackson however, his production never amounted to anything when it COUNTED MOST - the postseason. jordan led his bulls to a miserable 1-9 record (no other top 10 player failed to have a below .500 record, in the playoffs, to start their careers)

so yes - jordan is a dark horse here. good mention.

Your agenda driven rants would have more weight if you wasn't such a big fan of this guy:

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/131424/lebron_james_check_my_stats_main.jpg


It's already been noted that Jordan was encouraged by the coaching staff as well as the score keepers to do this as a motivational tool while he was playing point guard at the time. You've used the 1-9 argument in every MJ post you've made since you've been on here, as if that was even a long stretch of games when it happened.

It amounted to 3 years of playoff struggling, followed by improvement year after year leading up to a 6-6 run the Finals along with not just 6 finals MVPs, but also 6 scoring titles during those finals runs to go along with it. Anytime peeps see that 1-9 ISH, you constantly get reminded of this fact, and for good reason.

[mehyaM24]

Your agenda driven rants would have more weight if you wasn't such a big fan of this guy:


It's already been noted that Jordan was encouraged by the coaching staff as well as the score keepers to do this as a motivational tool while he was playing point guard at the time. You've used the 1-9 argument in every MJ post you've made since you've been on here, as if that was even a long stretch of games when it happened.

It amounted to 3 years of playoff struggling, followed by improvement year after year leading up to a 6-6 run the Finals along with not just 6 finals MVPs, but also 6 scoring titles during those finals runs to go along with it. Anytime peeps see that 1-9 ISH, you constantly get reminded of this fact, and for good reason.
aside from his 1-9 playoff record, jordan failed time and time again in crunchtime as well - it's just interesting and almost bizzare seeing jordan fail at the end of games (maybe because "come fly with me" tells us different). here's just a sample of his blunders:

10/27/84 vs bucks, jordan misses GT jumper
12/14/84 vs nets - jordan misses tying jumper with 28 seconds left - nets win by 2
11/6/86 vs pistons - misses 2 freethrows in the last minute of the game, commiting 2 crucial turnovers. chicago loses a close game to detroit
11/26/86 vs nuggets - goes 0-4 in the last minute. bulls lose 109-107.
12/5/86 vs suns - misses 2 field goals to send the game into overtime, but fails to do so (missed a shot with 1 second left, phoenix wins by 2).
12/31/86 vs golden state - missed a game 3pt attempt at the buzzer.
3/26/87 vs nets - misses back to back freethrows with one minute left, and then misses a potential GT jumpshot at the buzzer. jordan's team loses AGAIN.

^^^^ here we see enough evidence, illuminating jordan's REAL late game "herorics". of course - you will get the often touted "6/6" - well, jordan didn't just play 6 seasons in the league. you must look into a players ENTIRE career.

[juju151111]

aside from his 1-9 playoff record, jordan failed time and time again in crunchtime as well - it's just interesting and almost bizzare seeing jordan fail at the end of games (maybe because "come fly with me" tells us different). here's just a sample of his blunders:

10/27/84 vs bucks, jordan misses GT jumper
12/14/84 vs nets - jordan misses tying jumper with 28 seconds left - nets win by 2
11/6/86 vs pistons - misses 2 freethrows in the last minute of the game, commiting 2 crucial turnovers. chicago loses a close game to detroit
11/26/86 vs nuggets - goes 0-4 in the last minute. bulls lose 109-107.
12/5/86 vs suns - misses 2 field goals to send the game into overtime, but fails to do so (missed a shot with 1 second left, phoenix wins by 2).
12/31/86 vs golden state - missed a game 3pt attempt at the buzzer.
3/26/87 vs nets - misses back to back freethrows with one minute left, and then misses a potential GT jumpshot at the buzzer. jordan's team loses AGAIN.

^^^^ here we see enough evidence, illuminating jordan's REAL late game "herorics". of course - you will get the often touted "6/6" - well, jordan didn't just play 6 seasons in the league. you must look into a players ENTIRE career.
Everybody misses shots numnuts. If they were trying to hide it why did they make a commercial stating how many times Mj missed GW. You just a dumb**** Mj comes up in the clutch all the time.

[ArbitraryWater]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpGWDKD6Ik8

Jordan is a God in the Clutch.

I don't know how we even come to bringing him up here...

LOL @ LeBron getting a mention and the reasoning being fans of his praising his stats.. ISH :oldlol:

[mehyaM24]

Mj comes up in the clutch all the time.

not quite. jordan made his share of timely baskets - nobody would argue that - but as the commercial and statistics show, jordan missed more than he actually made. his blunders are up there with some of THE WORST chokers in history.

for instance, take a look at, up until that point, jordan's biggest game - game 5 of the 1989 eastern conference finals

Game 5, 1989 ECF (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgiPrZ1eDTU) - jordan in his prime bowels over something cowardly. does ISH realize that jordan, the games leading scorer, took just 8 shots in this game? that's right. EIGHT (five of them in the first half).

come the 4th quarter - jordan took just ONE field goal attempt - an airball. keep in mind it was a close game throughout, but jordan, for whatever reason, just inexplicably disappeared.

just look at jordan's body language half way through the video - he had "quit" on his face, and nobody can deny it.

of course, the broadcasters were in complete shock and wondered what the **** happened to jordan?


“he hasn’t really gotten that aggressive look at the offensive end so far”

”it’s almost like Jordan is on cruise control”

”at this point, Jordan is not even looking at the basket. More or less content to be a decoy”

”he’s been as quiet as a mouse, he just hasn’t been looking at the hoop and I think he has to”

now you may ask- "but mehya, jordan missed clutch shots and had bad postseason outings just like everyone else. what's your point?" well, for starters, nobody else is touted and worshiped "GOAT". you could say that my point is, before phil jackson and pippen stepped into chicago as headcoach and superstar - jordan was THE most unsuccessful "superstar" in playoff history. these disappearing acts and missed clutch shots are just pieces of the puzzle that is jordan's mythological career.

[Marchesk]

I'm shocked that you didn't expand on Dantley more. Dantley used to score very efficiently, but didn't really do that much else. In 30 for 30 documentary, you got to see how he wanted to be more in charge of the team. He wanted more plays called for him, he didn't like how Chuck Daly would call him out in the 4th for Rodman's defense (he even refused to trade in for Rodman in the middle of the game, so Rodman had to be called back to the bench), and he didn't like Isiah being the leader of the team. As soon as he got traded, the team got better.

I don't know if that's fair. The year before they lost in a very close 7 game series to a healthy Lakers team. Dantley was the leading scorer. But maybe you're right if the context is the following season when there was dissension in the locker room between Isiah and Dantley.

In all of this talk about empty stats, it's interesting to note how all-time greats can put up great numbers on both crappy and championship caliber teams. What's the biggest difference? Probably the team. If we took Bill Russell and put him on the worst team in the 60s, he would still put up stellar rebounding and defensive numbers (if those were tracked), while probably scoring more (since it would be needed), but would his team be that good without multiple HOFers? Probably not.

What is MJ without Pippen, Grant/Rodman and Phil? A great individual talent.

[SouBeachTalents]

aside from his 1-9 playoff record, jordan failed time and time again in crunchtime as well - it's just interesting and almost bizzare seeing jordan fail at the end of games (maybe because "come fly with me" tells us different). here's just a sample of his blunders:

10/27/84 vs bucks, jordan misses GT jumper
12/14/84 vs nets - jordan misses tying jumper with 28 seconds left - nets win by 2
11/6/86 vs pistons - misses 2 freethrows in the last minute of the game, commiting 2 crucial turnovers. chicago loses a close game to detroit
11/26/86 vs nuggets - goes 0-4 in the last minute. bulls lose 109-107.
12/5/86 vs suns - misses 2 field goals to send the game into overtime, but fails to do so (missed a shot with 1 second left, phoenix wins by 2).
12/31/86 vs golden state - missed a game 3pt attempt at the buzzer.
3/26/87 vs nets - misses back to back freethrows with one minute left, and then misses a potential GT jumpshot at the buzzer. jordan's team loses AGAIN.

^^^^ here we see enough evidence, illuminating jordan's REAL late game "herorics". of course - you will get the often touted "6/6" - well, jordan didn't just play 6 seasons in the league. you must look into a players ENTIRE career.

Jordan never did this

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/z%20Funny%20NBA%20Photos/Funny%20NBA%20Record/Lebron%20James/aka%20big%20choker/lebron-james-2011-nba-final-4q.jpg