James Harden's FG% this year: 37%. His TS%: 61%.

[russwest0]

:lol :lol :lol Funniest stat of the season so far imo

[AirTupac]

Houston has the same chance of winning the Championship as the Lakers. 0% :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[navy]

Goat

[Keno]

but but but his ts is 61% so his shooting is extraordinaire this season.

[pnyozzzoo]

Better than Clay and cheaper according to Rockets fans.:roll:

[Akhenaten]

I dont understand how a player get's a percentage boost for making threes when they are already awarded an extra point for making a three.

for instance a made 2 point FG= 2 points, 100% FG, 100% TS

while a made 3 point FG= 3 points, 100% FG, 100+% TS :confusedshrug: (so the player gets extra points AND extra percentage points)

How are you getting an extra point AND an extra boost in %?

Meanwhile the "true" percentage value of a missed two point FG is the exact same as the percentage value of a missed three point FG..0%.

TS% serves what purpose other than to tell us 3>2
goofiest shit ever, all those "advanced" stats are goofy math nerd foolishness

the hell is a "true" percentage, stupidest shit ever and so many people use that nonsense :facepalm

[SugarHill]

I dont understand how a player get's a percentage boost for making threes when they are already awarded an extra point for making a three.

for instance a made 2 point FG= 2 points, 100% FG, 100% TS

while a made 3 point FG= 3 points, 100% FG, 100+% TS :confusedshrug: (so the player gets extra points AND extra percentage points)

How are you getting an extra point AND an extra boost in %?

Meanwhile the "true" percentage value of a missed two point FG is the exact same as the percentage value of a missed three point FG..0%.

TS% serves what purpose other than to tell us 3>2
goofiest shit ever, all those "advanced" stats are goofy math nerd foolishness

the hell is a "true" percentage, stupidest shit ever and so many people use that nonsense :facepalm

You know there is another component, right?

[aj1987]

13 FT's a game. 28 PPG on 6 made FG's... :facepalm

[eklip]

Well, TS% is the best way to show how efficient a player is. Getting to the line is the most efficient thing you can do. A player who gets to the line over 10 times per game and is one of the best FT shooters will always be efficient.

It isn't pretty but it's efficient. I don't like watching Harden, but it's not easy to get to the line as often as Harden does, so you have to respect his ability. He's tough to defend without fouling.

[SCdac]

He is tough to defend without fouling, but let's be real, the guy flails his arms upon any contact and what's a "foul" nowadays may not have necessarily been a foul even 20-30 years ago. So yeah, it's going to be tough not being physical inside the arch in a game that's inherently physical. I don't mind if a player relentlessly attacks, but when watching Harden you get the feeling he's using it a crutch or overly relying on refs bailing him out.

[CavaliersFTW]

Ref baiting at it's finest.

This guy is tailor made for soft NBA fouls...

[SilkkTheShocker]

OKC hicks still desperately trying to defend the Harden trade :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[Tide]

watching harden play used to be so much fun. Now it's like slitting your wrist.

[Milbuck]

He is tough to defend without fouling, but let's be real, the guy flails his arms upon any contact and what's a "foul" nowadays may not have necessarily been a foul even 20-30 years ago. So yeah, it's going to be tough not being physical inside the arch in a game that's inherently physical. I don't mind if a player relentlessly attacks, but when watching Harden you get the feeling he's using it a crutch or overly relying on refs bailing him out.
Which is why he'd be an upper middle class man's Corey Maggette in the past. He's a good basketball player...but we're fooling ourselves if we think he's anything above the Afflalo-tier of players.

[ImKobe]

watching harden play used to be so much fun. Now it's like slitting your wrist.

He's never going to be the alpha or the best player on a contender... His game is not made for the Playoffs. He'll benefit from bullshit calls during the season but will cost you key games by trying to do the same shit, and when it doesn't get called and he's shooting 6/22, you'll see how efficient he really is.

[Crown&Coke]

He is tough to defend without fouling, but let's be real, the guy flails his arms upon any contact and what's a "foul" nowadays may not have necessarily been a foul even 20-30 years ago. So yeah, it's going to be tough not being physical inside the arch in a game that's inherently physical. I don't mind if a player relentlessly attacks, but when watching Harden you get the feeling he's using it a crutch or overly relying on refs bailing him out.

His drive to the basket is one of the most "kicked in the balls" thing I've seen on the court in a long time.

He is literally creating the contact by putting his arms under the defenders arm and shooting a granny shot as a layup and then exaggerating the contact like he got shot in the back a la Boyz in the Hood Ricky style (Paul Pierce does this exaggeration too, he's a ****sucker as well.)

It's not quality basketball. It's horseshit and it pisses me off. It's basically the rip through move except for being a jump shot, it's a layup attempt.

[ImKobe]

His drive to the basket is one of the most "kicked in the balls" thing I've seen on the court in a long time.

He is literally creating the contact by putting his arms under the defenders arm and shooting a granny shot as a layup and then exaggerating the contact like he got shot in the back a la Boyz in the Hood Ricky style (Paul Pierce does this exaggeration too, he's a ****sucker as well.)

It's not quality basketball. It's horseshit and it pisses me off. It's basically the rip through move except for being a jump shot, it's a layup attempt.

And then you see people post his stats and say he's the best SG in the league or a top 5/10 player :rolleyes:

[bdreason]

And come playoff time he won't get as many BS calls.

[SyRyanYang]

But getting to the line isn't a skill? I'm not saying I like him or I enjoy his game, but if it's easy, everybody would be doing it and getting paid 15m+

Some defenders are really, really dumb though. What's so hard about keeping your arm straight up.

[GrapeApe]

Harden is a great example of why TS% can be misleading and is a flawed representation of efficiency. If two players have a similar TS%, I want the guy who shoots better from the floor. Come playoff time when the refs are more prone to swallow their whistles, a player who shoots more efficiently from the floor will usually be more effective. It's no coincidence that Harden's play drops significantly in the playoffs.

[ImKobe]

But getting to the line isn't a skill? I'm not saying I like him or I enjoy his game, but if it's easy, everybody would be doing it and getting paid 15m+

Some defenders are really, really dumb though. What's so hard about keeping your arm straight up.

Well, some coaches want their defenders to foul guys hard. Harden's going to flop his way to the line regardless, I'd be happy if defenders roughed him up a little more because he's getting away with too much bullshit.

This nikka relies on that shit so much when the POs come around and he gets the ball with 5 seconds to go with his team down 1-2 points, he'll literally freeze with the ball in his hands, like last season :kobe:

anyone got that gif, where he has the ball (vs Blazers in the POs), just freezes then quickly puts a shot up as the shot clock expires? that shit was so funny man

[Inactive]

Harden is a great example of why TS% can be misleading and is a flawed representation of efficiency. If two players have a similar TS%, I want the guy who shoots better from the floor. Come playoff time when the refs are more prone to swallow their whistles, a player who shoots more efficiently from the floor will usually be more effective. It's no coincidence that Harden's play drops significantly in the playoffs.I agree, but that doesn't mean there's anything flawed about TS% as a measure of efficiency. If Harden doesn't get calls in the playoffs, his TS% will go down, reflecting his drop in efficiency.

The most you could say, based on your argument, is that TS% is worse than EFG% as a predictor of future efficiency (particularly in the playoffs). That may or may not be true; it sounds plausible, but we'd have to actually look at the numbers to see if it's true.

[Crown&Coke]

But getting to the line isn't a skill? I'm not saying I like him or I enjoy his game, but if it's easy, everybody would be doing it and getting paid 15m+

Some defenders are really, really dumb though. What's so hard about keeping your arm straight up.


Some defenders are indeed dumb as shit

But while moving laterally to defend against a drive, arms straight up is not how anyone is taught to play defense.

[Xsatyr]

Some defenders are indeed dumb as shit

But while moving laterally to defend against a drive, arms straight up is not how anyone is taught to play defense.

The fouls are not coming when defenders are moving laterally. The fouls are from when Harden gets by them and they are reaching in. Once a player gets by you then you need to get your arms up to contest the shot. Too many players are taking the bait when Harden extends his arms and then raises up to draw a foul. Either way this will be irrelevant come playoff time when refs allow a lot of this contact.

[Mr Exlax]

How are yall gonna hate on Harden for being able to draw fouls, but then be perfectly ok when a coach employs the "Hack-A-_____" tactic? I still say Harden doesn't flop though. I'd hate him if he did. He's legit getting hacked. I wish I could think to hold the ball out in front of me like he does when I'm driving so I can get the foul. Puts my team in the bonus quicker which is a positive thing for a team. Just in case you guys didn't know.

[IncarceratedBob]

I can't hate on him bc he gets the job done in the regular season.

[russwest0]

He's never going to be the alpha or the best player on a contender... His game is not made for the Playoffs. He'll benefit from bullshit calls during the season but will cost you key games by trying to do the same shit, and when it doesn't get called and he's shooting 6/22, you'll see how efficient he really is.

He had the perfect role in OKC so long as he would have embraced it like Ginobli did for San Antonio.

[dubeta]

Durant also had a pretty pathetic 13% difference between FG% and TS% last year

[oarabbus]

I dont understand how a player get's a percentage boost for making threes when they are already awarded an extra point for making a three.

for instance a made 2 point FG= 2 points, 100% FG, 100% TS

while a made 3 point FG= 3 points, 100% FG, 100+% TS :confusedshrug: (so the player gets extra points AND extra percentage points)

How are you getting an extra point AND an extra boost in %?

Meanwhile the "true" percentage value of a missed two point FG is the exact same as the percentage value of a missed three point FG..0%.

TS% serves what purpose other than to tell us 3>2
goofiest shit ever, all those "advanced" stats are goofy math nerd foolishness

the hell is a "true" percentage, stupidest shit ever and so many people use that nonsense :facepalm


:biggums: the extra point IS what gives the extra percentage point... it's a stat meant to combine a player's value in 2pts + 3s + ability to get to the line

And you didn't even include fts. All stats advanced or not are meant to be taken in context....

[russwest0]

Durant also had a pretty pathetic 13% difference between FG% and TS% last year

Thats not pathetic at all, it just means he's a good 3pt and FT shooter.

Harden's shit right now though is ridiculous :lol

He makes 6 baskets a game and is averaging like 28 ppg :lol

[oarabbus]

Thats not pathetic at all, it just means he's a good 3pt and FT shooter.

Harden's shit right now though is ridiculous :lol

He makes 6 baskets a game and is averaging like 28 ppg :lol


One of the away announcers last year said something like "James Harden averages over 20 points per game but is the type of player who wouldn't even average 10 in the playground"

[navy]

One of the away announcers last year said something like "James Harden averages over 20 points per game but is the type of player who wouldn't even average 10 in the playground"
:applause:

[andremiller07]

The problem with what he's doing is he's setting himself up to fail again in the playoffs cause he's actually forgotten how to play basketball without it, What he's doing now is only hurting him in the long run if the Rockets want to contend since those calls are going to vanish and instead of working on something to counter that, once it occurs he's going to keep running in and throwing his hands in the air like a idiot while the refs help him during the regular season.

[UK2K]

So much hate.

Love it.

Harden is in ISHs head, seems like, every day since the season started someone else is thinking of him.

He's balling out on my fantasy team.

[GrapeApe]

I agree, but that doesn't mean there's anything flawed about TS% as a measure of efficiency. If Harden doesn't get calls in the playoffs, his TS% will go down, reflecting his drop in efficiency.

The most you could say, based on your argument, is that TS% is worse than EFG% as a predictor of future efficiency (particularly in the playoffs). That may or may not be true; it sounds plausible, but we'd have to actually look at the numbers to see if it's true.

My use of the word "flawed" wasn't regarding TS% in and of itself, but rather its usefulness as a performance predictor, which you picked up on. I do in fact prefer EFG% and raw FG% in that regard. TS% has a subjective element which makes it more prone to variability.

[SugarHill]

One of the away announcers last year said something like "James Harden averages over 20 points per game but is the type of player who wouldn't even average 10 in the playground"

Funny, but let's not pretend like Harden isn't very skilled. He's an elite slasher.

[josh99]

I dont understand how a player get's a percentage boost for making threes when they are already awarded an extra point for making a three.

for instance a made 2 point FG= 2 points, 100% FG, 100% TS

while a made 3 point FG= 3 points, 100% FG, 100+% TS :confusedshrug: (so the player gets extra points AND extra percentage points)

How are you getting an extra point AND an extra boost in %?

Meanwhile the "true" percentage value of a missed two point FG is the exact same as the percentage value of a missed three point FG..0%.

TS% serves what purpose other than to tell us 3>2
goofiest shit ever, all those "advanced" stats are goofy math nerd foolishness

the hell is a "true" percentage, stupidest shit ever and so many people use that nonsense :facepalm
I don't think you understand how it works...
"Effective Field Goal Percentage; the formula is (FG + 0.5 * 3P) / FGA. This statistic adjusts for the fact that a 3-point field goal is worth one more point than a 2-point field goal. For example, suppose Player A goes 4 for 10 with 2 threes, while Player B goes 5 for 10 with 0 threes. Each player would have 10 points from field goals, and thus would have the same effective field goal percentage (50%)."

Btw that's eFG%, TS% is like eFG% but also incorporates free throws.

[KungFuJoe]

Harden is amazing in the regular season.

[BIZARRO]

Phil Jackson said it best when he said MJ was one of the best interior players, and how important that was. Said along the lines of that the only player who compared was Oscar Robertson.

Oscar Robertson in a (great interview with C-Webb) discussed how if you want to win you have to get into the interior of the defense.

TS% is s*** compared to FG% because I'll take the guy who 5/10 with 0 threes all day than the 4/10 with 2 threes, because he is (most likely) taking much more high quality shots and attacking the defense and getting into the interior.

Jump shooting teams lose, especially in the playoffs.

I mean you see it all the time at your local gym. The teams that get beat and suck are the ones who settle for longer jumpers. You can even tell when you are playing poorly, or playing against a really good defender, and you just settle for the 3.

Essentially, the best example I think of this point is the difference between MJ and Kobe as WINNING basketball players. MJ was much more aggressive driving and attacking the defense on the interior. Which in the long run is so important. You can have a few games of getting hot from the outside as a player or team. But in the long run you get beat if you can't attack the interior.

TS% does not take into account the detrimental effect that taking 3's has on playing winning basketball in the pro game. Rewards less quality basketball comparitively. It rewards how good of a "shooter" you may be. But not how good of a player.

[Taller than CP3]

James Harden is the type of niggah that trains in pro wrestling during the off season to master the art of drawing a foul.

[Smook A.]

Since TS% is such an important stat on this site, I thought I'd mention that James Harden is top 10 All-time. For those interested, here are the top 10 of all time:

1. Artis Gilmore .643
2. Cedric Maxwell .629
3. James Donaldson .618
4. Adrian Dantley .617
5. Tyson Chandler .615
6. Reggie Miller .614
7. Charles Barkley .612
8. Magic Johnson .610
9. John Stockton .608
10. James Harden .607

Some more guys...

24. Kareem Abdul Jabbar .592
37. Shaquille Oneal .586
39. Manu Ginobili .589
45. Dirk Nowitzki .582
47. Lebron James .581
56. Karl Malone .577
60. Chris Paul .575
75. Paul Pierce .56892
77. Michael Jordan .5686
79. Dwyane Wade .568
94. Larry Bird .565
95. Oscar Robertson .564 (Actually tied with Brad Miller)
107. James Worthy .559
114. Julius Erving .558 (Tied with Paul Westphal)
133. Kobe Bryant .555 (Tied with Danny Ainge)
145. Hakeem Olajuwon .553
155. Tony Parker .551
157. Tim Duncan .5509
182. Kevin Garnett .547

How did James Harden accomplish this? Lets take a look at this year. I know it's only a sample size of 4 games, but he is 25-57 from the field which is .373. He is also 10-25 from the three point line which is .400. But he has 54 free throws in four games which is 13.5 per game. With those free throws, he is 51-54 and .944. With these stats, his TS% is .61 which is good for 9th all time which almost matches Charles Barkely's TS%.

TS% = Points/(2 * FGA) + (0.88 * FTA) =
111/(2 * 67) + (0.88 * 54) = .61

Judging by this stat, it means Harden is a better offensive player than all-time greats like Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Larry Bird, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar... but he isn't. If TS% is truly the judge of who the greatest and most efficient offensive players, then I say the NBA sucks now. If this is the method for determining the best offensive player of all time, then it's a sad state for the NBA. TS% is just a really misleading stat. Another note. Reggie Miller ranks #6 all time in TS% and took advantage of his kickout when he took a 3 to draw fouls. They eventually made a rule to negate the loophole he found. I admit, James Harden is very talented at taking advantage of a similar loophole by laterally running into people to draw fouls. They don't make these calls in the playoffs though and may be the primary reason Harden struggles in the playoffs. Obviously as a Rockets fan, I'm glad Harden is racking up these points but he's gotta start looking to shoot more because he'll need that when it's playoff time.

Background data:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ct_career.html

[RRR3]

Lets not act like Harden doesn't usually shoot respectably in the regular season at least because he does. He's a good shooter but takes bad shots and is way too obsessed with drawing fouls. He need to work on this. He is a great scorer at times but he will need to not rely on the whistle to take the next step.

[eklip]

Since TS% is such an important stat on this site, I thought I'd mention that James Harden is top 10 All-time. For those interested, here are the top 10 of all time:

1. Artis Gilmore .643
2. Cedric Maxwell .629
3. James Donaldson .618
4. Adrian Dantley .617
5. Tyson Chandler .615
6. Reggie Miller .614
7. Charles Barkley .612
8. Magic Johnson .610
9. John Stockton .608
10. James Harden .607

Some more guys...

24. Kareem Abdul Jabbar .592
37. Shaquille Oneal .586
39. Manu Ginobili .589
45. Dirk Nowitzki .582
47. Lebron James .581
56. Karl Malone .577
60. Chris Paul .575
75. Paul Pierce .56892
77. Michael Jordan .5686
79. Dwyane Wade .568
94. Larry Bird .565
95. Oscar Robertson .564 (Actually tied with Brad Miller)
107. James Worthy .559
114. Julius Erving .558 (Tied with Paul Westphal)
133. Kobe Bryant .555 (Tied with Danny Ainge)
145. Hakeem Olajuwon .553
155. Tony Parker .551
157. Tim Duncan .5509
182. Kevin Garnett .547

How did James Harden accomplish this? Lets take a look at this year. I know it's only a sample size of 4 games, but he is 25-57 from the field which is .373. He is also 10-25 from the three point line which is .400. But he has 54 free throws in four games which is 13.5 per game. With those free throws, he is 51-54 and .944. With these stats, his TS% is .61 which is good for 9th all time which almost matches Charles Barkely's TS%.

TS% = Points/(2 * FGA) + (0.88 * FTA) =
111/(2 * 67) + (0.88 * 54) = .61

Judging by this stat, it means Harden is a better offensive player than all-time greats like Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Larry Bird, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar... but he isn't. If TS% is truly the judge of who the greatest and most efficient offensive players, then I say the NBA sucks now. If this is the method for determining the best offensive player of all time, then it's a sad state for the NBA. TS% is just a really misleading stat. Another note. Reggie Miller ranks #6 all time in TS% and took advantage of his kickout when he took a 3 to draw fouls. They eventually made a rule to negate the loophole he found. I admit, James Harden is very talented at taking advantage of a similar loophole by laterally running into people to draw fouls. They don't make these calls in the playoffs though and may be the primary reason Harden struggles in the playoffs. Obviously as a Rockets fan, I'm glad Harden is racking up these points but he's gotta start looking to shoot more because he'll need that when it's playoff time.

Background data:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ct_career.html

That post makes no sense. TS% is an efficiency stat. It's used to show how efficient a player is, nothing more. Nobody calls Korver the GOAT just because he is incredible efficient. Nobody ranks players just by TS% and nobody ranks players just by FG%. If that was the case players like Tyson Chandler and DeAndre Jordan would be two of the greatest players.

Harden's 18.1 ppg on .607 TS% is good but not close to being one of the best offensive players. You also can't ignore the playoffs: 16.6 ppg on .583 TS%.

Harden as the man in the playoffs:
26.5 ppg on ~53 TS% ... that's not efficient.

Jordan had multiple playoff runs with >30 ppg and around .600 TS%. Overall he averaged 33.4 ppg on .568 TS% in 179 playoff games. That's one reason why he is regarded as the GOAT.

Like I said, NOBODY uses TS% exclusively. It just the best stat to show how efficient a player is (points per possession is also a good stat, because it includes turnovers). Nobody cares if a player is efficient if he doesn't score much.

[SamuraiSWISH]

TS has always been useless.

[dubeta]

TS has always been useless.

Especially when it makes Jordan look bad compared to LeBron :lol

[aboss4real24]

This guy is making a mockery of the league

this is y he will never win a ring

Klay thompson is better than harden

[RRR3]

Especially when it makes Jordan look bad compared to LeBron :lol
James Harden>LeBron by that "logic"

[StephHamann]

Cancer+Aids= Haren

[dubeta]

James Harden>LeBron by that "logic"

But Harden actually gets BS calls and plays for freethrows, when at the same time an argument can be made that LeBron doesn't get calls. There's a difference

[RRR3]

But Harden actually gets BS calls and plays for freethrows, when at the same time an argument can be made that LeBron doesn't get calls. There's a difference
Those are all opinions.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Funny thing is: Kevin Durant is the second worst at this and OP stans him.

[konex]

Refs let him do this all season then suddenly stop calling the garbage fouls in the playoffs :rolleyes: