All Time Draft Conference Finals! #1 vs #5 and #2 vs #3

[barkleynash]

VOTING IS OPEN TO EVERYONE. However, the requirement is that you have >100 post counts, and your account must be registered before Sept 14. Troll votes would not be taken into account (subjected to veto by the 3 commissioners).

Voting will close Sunday (Nov 9th) at 11:59pm




Eastern Conference Finals:



#1 Team Buffalo
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10649303&postcount=1028 (Team Synopsis)

PG: Gary Payton 95-96
SG: Michael Jordan 92-93
SF: Glen Rice 96-97
PF: Chris Weber 01-02
C: Nate Thurmond 67-68

Bench: Tim Hardaway 96-97
Tony Allen 11-12
Thunder Dan 91-92
Dennis Rodman 91-92
Joakim Noah 13-14

Coach: Jeff VanGundy



VS




#5 Team Kshutts
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10650330&postcount=1039 (team synopsis)

PG: Oscar Robertson 63-64
SG/PG: Jerry West 65-66
SF: Bruce Bowen 02-03
PF: Karl Malone 97-98
C: Dikembe Mutumbo 95-96

Bench: Doug Christie 02-03
James Harden 11-12
AK47 07-08
Donyell Marshall 04-05
Artis Gilmore 81-82

Coach: Rick Adelman



AND



Western Conference Finals:



#2 Team Kurple

PG: Chauncey Billups 05-06
SG: Ray Allen 00-01
SF: Grant Hill 96-97
PF: Bobby Jones 76-77
C: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 79-80

Bench: Kirk Hinrich 06-07
Allen Iverson 97-98
Tayshaun Prince 06-07
Chris Bosh 12-13
Mark Eaton

Coach: Larry Brown



VS



#3 Team Barkleynash
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10647153&postcount=975 (team synopsis)

PG/PF: Magic Johnson 89-90
SG/SF: Kawhi Leonard 13-14
SF: Julius "The Dr." Erving 75-76
PF: Bob Pettit 60-61
C: Arvydas Sabonis 85-86

Bench: Lenny Wilkens 74-75
Klay Thompson 11-12
Oscar Schmidt 87-88
Antonio McDyess 97-98
Vlade Divac 89-90

Coach: Dr. Jack Ramsay


Good luck to the final 4!!! You may begin your arguments now!

Link to the home page: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10664321#post10664321

[barkleynash]

Awesome job to everyone that took part in this draft and tourney, final 4 time, lets finish strong! Kurple "we're gonna get it on cause we don't get along!" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-5_8af3TiY

Rotation: Gotta roll with what got us here!

PG: Magic 37min/ Lenny Wilkens 11 min
SG: Leonard 29 min/ Schmidt 19 min/ Klay in for injuries/extreme foul trouble or garbage time
SF: Dr J 37 min/ Schmidt 11 min
PF: Pettit 36 min/ McDyess 12 min
C: Sabonis 36 min/ McDyess 12 min/ Divac in for injures/extreme foul trouble or garbage time


Kurple has a very, very talented squad but so does team Barkleynash. Kurple may just have the best player in the series with KAJ although there are many out there that have both Magic and Bird ahead of him in the holy trinity of basketball with MJ. Kareem had the best offensive weapon in basketball and is undeniably great but unlike Magic he couldn't make all of his teammates better and raise their game and level of play.

If Team Kurple has the best player, I'd argue that Team Barkleynash has the next best 3 in Magic, Dr J and Bob Pettit. Hill was very nice, especially as a playmaker but wasn't the scorer or rebounder Dr J was in his prime year and Hill's production will go down as a 2nd option. Pettit as option 1b did half of his work on the offensive glass so he'd still be very effective getting slightly less touches but better touches as they are coming from Magic. Neither Bobby Jones or Chris Bosh will be able to keep Pettit off the glass and he's primed to have a really big series. A Prime MVP version of Iverson could've maybe had an argument here but not sophomore AI off the bench who may just as easily hurt his team with erratic play than help his team. Personally I'd take prime Oscar Schmidt in a very big role off the bench as resident flame thrower to have a bigger impact in the series than the green unproven AI.

Sabonis will be used similarly like he was in the last series drawing KAJ to the 3 point line and high post freeing up space for members of the big 3 to operate but he'll get a few touches inside as well as he would actually have decent success posting up against the thinner Jabbar compared to last rounds matchup of the defensive beast Wilt.

A sizeable rebounding edge in this series goes to Barkleynash with them holding an advantage at every position but center. This will trigger our lethal fast break and also get us more 2nd chance points on the offensive end.

As for the matchups, Leonard will draw either Ray or AI. They will both get theirs but he'll do a decent job. Magic can guard Billups as well as he could guard any point guard in the league as Chauncey rarely killed anyone with speed but more with savvy and size/strength advantage (which won't be present vs Magic.) On the flip side I wouldn't be surprised to see Hill and even Bobby Jones or Bosh all take turns with Billups trying to guard Magic. Hill would have the best chance but it's still a tough out for him and then who guards The Doctor? The Doctor will take on Hill which is a matchup we feel very comfortable with as we feel Julius is just better everywhere except for playmaking. The Pettit vs either Jones or Bosh matchups have been discussed. He will eat them up on the boards and wear them out progressively during the series. And after last round going against Wilt and surviving there's no chance Sabas will be intimidated going against KAJ. He obviously won't win the matchup but he'll still be productive and make Kareem work. As far as bench production I feel we'd get more consistent play out of Prime Schmidt compared to AI and McDyess and Bosh will be close to a wash. If and when he rolls with Eaton at center he'll be a huge liability for transition D and a non factor on offense so I assume Kurple will give Bosh all the burn and have a small ball line up to match up with ours.

All in all I feel Team Barkleynash's advantages in rebounding, playmaking and open court scoring will be too much for Kareem and his friends to handle. Team Barkleynash wins in 6 when Magic pays tribute to Jabbar with a "Jr Skyhook" for the win :)

[kshutts1]

I don't have time right now. But this is gonna be a really tough matchup. I love Buffalo's team. Kurple's is the only team I'm afraid of (tho I withhold the ability to take back that statement if we meet up), but Buffalo is tough.

Anyway, super quick thoughts then bed...

Only team with guards that can handle mine on D. But it's also a team that I believe I can exploit in the post.

His lack of spacing will hurt him.

My lack of Jordan will hurt me (though I'll argue that Oscar is on Jordan's level... I just know that the majority doesn't feel that way).

Anyway, bed for now. More thoughts hopefully in the morning.

[kshutts1]

I'm not sure we can actually have a winner, unless there's a resounding majority-vote with just us final four. It seems as though that those managers knocked out are not voting.
Unfortunate side effect, though not a surprising one.

West v Payton - West is the better player. More effective and electric scorer, equivalent (though I'll get arguments here) defender. Significantly more range.

Oscar v Jordan - I consider it a wash, and I'm not kidding. Vast majority of people will disagree, so I'll count this one was a victory for Jordan. But Oscar is essentially the player that Jordan was when he was slotted at PG and famously had something stupid like 9 straight triple doubles. That's Oscar. Similar range on each, similar size. Mental toughness is also similar. The only advantage Jordan has is on D, and Oscar was a great defender in his own right.

Bowen v Rice - Considering the offenses they play in, they're virtually identical players on offense for this series. The huge difference is Bowen will be checking Jordan, while Rice will be glad he's "hiding" on Bowen. Advantage to me as an individual.

Karl v Webber - Second leading scorer in history, a man without a defined prime, going against one of the greatest "should be" players of all time. Webber had a near refusal to "bang" down low. Karl loved it. Biggest personnel disparity in the series. I don't see Webber playing heavy minutes.

Gilmore v Thurmond - It's a shame there's limited H2H with these two players. Only overlapped in the NBA for one or two years. One of the best post defenders and one of the best post players. I think Gilmore wins because he's a significantly better offensive force while still being a very strong defender.

Obvious counter to Karl is Rodman. But in 30 h2h's between Rodman and Karl, Karl Malone has averaged 27/10/3 on 53% shooting. His career stats are 25/10/3 on 52% shooting.

Off the bench, he counters my Harden with his Allen, while I put Doug Christie on his Hardaway. Defensively, his matchup is better. But adding in Christie's offensive ability vs "trick or treat" Tony, and at worst it's a wash, at best I win by a slight margin.

Donyell Marshall and Dikembe Mutombo are similar in impact to Noah and Rodman though, again, different skill sets. Although if we're arguing just these four players, he does have the edge.

Long post short.. in a personnel breakdown only, I win. Mostly by virtue of Karl (or Gilmore, if he puts Thurmond on Karl) handily beating whomever he is put up against.
Again, I urge you to consider how incredible Oscar was before you give me the whole "Jordan is the GOAT, Oscar doesn't stand a chance" speech.
A quick google search of Oscar shows he was voted "Player of the Century" by a panel of coaches.
Everyone knows about Oscar's triple double season, but what not everyone knows is that he averaged a triple double over a five year span. Keep that in mind when you consider Jordan's "phenomenal" string of triple doubles while playing point guard.
Oscar was the only player not named "Chamberlain" or "Russell" to win an MVP from 1960 - 1968. (seen on Oscar's wiki page)

In short, don't underestimate or overlook Oscar.

[kshutts1]

Now that I got the personnel rankings out of the way...

My team will play similarly to how it has all tournament -- exploiting matchups, constantly attacking the paint, and raining triples when the D collapses in either case.

To exploit the matchups, I'd first need to see what Buffalo does by way of guarding me. I won't lie and say that West and Oscar will destroy Payton/Jordan, though I like the chances for both (and honestly all four) to "get theirs". Just will be difficult. Karl is the biggest matchup I see. I showed in my previous post that Rodman can't handle him. We all know Webber can't. If Thurmond gets Karl, then Gilmore will get the ball early and often in the post against either Webber (who has an aversion to post D) or Rodman.

For now, we feed Karl. A lot. When the D collapses, and it will, Bowen and West are out at the 3p line. Oscar is in his comfort zone about 15-18 feet from the basket. All of my players are smart and/or exceptional passers. If not the first pass, then the second, or third.

West and Oscar have the skillset to pump-fake rotating defenders and drive by if they see that option.

Adelman's system with the Kings was all about getting his players in to their comfort zones and playing the matchup game. The versatility of my roster is perfect for that, and that philosophy will be executed flawlessly.

Thurmond is the only rim protector that worries me. We went over this before. I don't buy Noah as a rim protector. That said, when my guards/Karl are driving, they're not likely to be deterred. If/when Thurmond cuts off the drive, then again with the pass to the open man.

Buffalo has fabulous defensive depth. On offense, I'd almost rather play against his starters. But his bench doesn't scare me in terms of scoring points. The foul trouble that I get his players in to with West, Oscar, Harden and Karl mercilessly driving to paint will bring in players like Allen, Rodman and Noah, who are 3 of the 4 worst offensive players in this series (Dikembe). Basically, his offensive depth is not great enough to offset any foul trouble from a primary player.

I'm not concerned with running a fast break, though West and Karl won't turn down the opportunity, nor will Oscar. I have a rebound advantage amongst the starters in this series, though his bench hits the glass better than mine. For both those factors, rebounding will have to be a team affair.
There is the potential for some leak-outs for Jordan, with Rice spotting up on the perimeter, but if Buffalo chooses to run, he'll get killed on the glass.

On defense, I'm confident that West can contain Payton. He's likely not as strong, but West is tough, gritty, and he had long arms. I'm not worried about Payton abusing him in the post.
Jordan will be checked by Bowen, one of the best perimeter defenders of all time. The only other player in history I'd rather have guard Jordan is Pippen, though Allen deserves mention.
Rice will be watched by Oscar. If Rice is used heavily, then Jordan and Payton are being left out. So all Oscar will need to do is stay on Rice.
Karl has the requisite quickness, size and strength to match Webber. Not many PFs did. But he does.

All of that said for D, I'll also switch to a zone from time to time to pick on the fact that Buffalo just can not shoot. Rice, Hardaway and Majerle are the only three players with range outside of 18-20 feet. If one, or none, of those players are in, AND Dikembe is in, my team has the option to switch to a matchup zone at any time. We'd have a code that would be hopefully undecipherable to the opposition so it could be done on a moment's notice. Off the top of my head, yell a number.. Even number is normal D, odd is zone. Number would not be yelled every time, and each time it is called out, it would only count for that single possession. Similar to play calls on offense.
The defensive ability of my wings (except Harden) allows them all to match up with anyone without getting destroyed... well, destroyed more than normal. They could all hold their own for a possession.

Maybe I'm biased, but this seems to be one of the most even matchups in the entire tournament. If this were a "had to win by 2+ games" type series, who knows how long it would go.

[barkleynash]

I'm not sure we can actually have a winner, unless there's a resounding majority-vote with just us final four. It seems as though that those managers knocked out are not voting.
Unfortunate side effect, though not a surprising one.

yeah hopefully we'll get a few more random voters to offset the managers that died off. If that doesn't happen the 2 tie breaks may have to come into play (1st being one of the gm's doesn't post an argument, the 2nd higher seed wins with their home court advantage.)

[Buffalobraves]

Just some quick points before I go to bed here, I'll go deeper into detail tomorrow:

I think the Malone vs Webber advantage is being overplayed here (I think prime Webber doesn't get any of the respect he should get on ISH). Webber would have some defensive problems vs Malone but he could easily go toe to toe scoring against him. I'm not sure that Karl can keep up with Webber's quickness and Webber is the superior vertical athlete. I'm not saying its advantage Webber but it's not a huge gap. When Rodman is in it would be the two of them grinding it out and with Webber in I'd have my best offense going at Karl.

I think I have a slight advantage in the backcourt. Payton's quickness would be tough for Jerry West and I'm a huge supporter of the big O but Jordan outmatches him on defense. I think West and Robertson are really going to be slowed down because of how quick Jordan and Payton are. It would be a real press for you to get any offense going in the back court even when Harden comes into the game because I have Tony Allen to match. It would be an absolutely epic match up but I think the advantage definitely goes to my squad.

Gilmore vs Thurmond would be a great old school match up of two strong as hell guys. Thurmond is known for his defensive game but is no slouch offensively. He had seasons where he averaged 20 points and rebounds on the year.

[wally_world]

yeah hopefully we'll get a few more random voters to offset the managers that died off. If that doesn't happen the 2 tie breaks may have to come into play (1st being one of the gm's doesn't post an argument, the 2nd higher seed wins with their home court advantage.)

Hardly anyone has been voting since round 1, not just these 2 couple rounds

[KobesFinger]

I can't decide between BNash and Kurple, but I think Buffalo wins his series. I've mentioned before I like his bench and especially how disgusting his team can be on D if he puts Allen and one of Rodman and Noah in paired with JVG. I'll wait for Kurple to do a write up.

[barkleynash]

Kurple?? where art thou?

I'd rather beat you straight up then potentially get you on a lame tie break cause you didn't post...

Anybody else not affiliated with the draft feel free to post comments and vote giving reasoning too :cheers:

[kshutts1]

Just some quick points before I go to bed here, I'll go deeper into detail tomorrow:

I think the Malone vs Webber advantage is being overplayed here (I think prime Webber doesn't get any of the respect he should get on ISH). Webber would have some defensive problems vs Malone but he could easily go toe to toe scoring against him. I'm not sure that Karl can keep up with Webber's quickness and Webber is the superior vertical athlete. I'm not saying its advantage Webber but it's not a huge gap. When Rodman is in it would be the two of them grinding it out and with Webber in I'd have my best offense going at Karl.

I think I have a slight advantage in the backcourt. Payton's quickness would be tough for Jerry West and I'm a huge supporter of the big O but Jordan outmatches him on defense. I think West and Robertson are really going to be slowed down because of how quick Jordan and Payton are. It would be a real press for you to get any offense going in the back court even when Harden comes into the game because I have Tony Allen to match. It would be an absolutely epic match up but I think the advantage definitely goes to my squad.

Gilmore vs Thurmond would be a great old school match up of two strong as hell guys. Thurmond is known for his defensive game but is no slouch offensively. He had seasons where he averaged 20 points and rebounds on the year.
I'm not discounting Webber. But his primary advantage over other big men was his speed and quickness; areas in which Karl can match him. I'm by no means saying Karl will beat him to the tune of 27/10 vs 10/5. Webber won't be a net negative, but in a very close series, that will be the biggest discrepancy. Not necessarily a huge one, but the biggest nonetheless.

As for the backcourt... I'm not worried about the quickness. West and Oscar were plenty quick, and are two of the five best guards ever for a reason. They'll be able to get theirs. I'll admit that your backcourt is much more prepared to defend mine than any other in the tournament but, as we know, offense still wins out, and my team will be forcing yours to rotate, and swing the ball... operating out of a straight set rarely.
As for Harden/Allen, another great matchup. Neither player has the upper hand. Some possessions Allen will have the upper hand, other possession Harden will.

In a series this closely matched, I just see my superior shooting and versatility being the difference maker. You have 4 players, at least, that are very limited in what they offer... Rodman, Allen, Rice, Noah. What they offer is all valuable, but when any one of those players is on the floor, other facets suffer tremendously. The only player like that on my roster is Dikembe. Basically, your strengths are stronger than mine, but your weaknesses are greater than mine.

[barkleynash]

Last day to get your arguments and votes in amigos...

[L.Kizzle]

How does a team with Donyell Marshall make it so far?

[hangintheair]

Sorry guys I been out for the past couple of weeks.

Wow we are at top 4 finalist.

Buffalo vs Kshutts

Anyway very nice offensive and defensive scheme for Kshutts. But sorry man, I will still vote for team Buffalo here. I know Bowen is a very good defender but Jordan could not be easily shutdown while Payton can play toe to toe with West. And I really like Webber in the PF position, being him a very good passer on the post.

Kurple vs BarkleyNash

Magic, Leonard and Dr. J could totally overpower the backcourt of team Kurple height and strength wise. And I think that Sabonis could steady his ground against KAJ.

[Milbuck]

Kshutts vs Buffalo is an incredible matchup here..

I like Kshutts’ starting 5 more, a bit more balance imo and he matches up nicely at every position. MJ is clearly the best player here for Buffalo but Oscar and West is as good as it gets in countering that in the backcourt. I think Malone would edge out C-Webb, and Deke could focus exclusively on shot blocking, rim protection, and rebounding. All of Malone’s weaknesses are compensated for by Deke.

That being said I think Buffalo’s team has the edge in bench depth. Tony Allen, Rodman, and Noah is an incredible defensive trio to be coming off the bench, and I think Dan and Hardaway can give solid offensive firepower..and there should be some staggered lineups where an offensive beast like MJ or C-Webb will be in there at all times.

In the end I might have to give it to Buffalo…I’m struggling to bet against MJ with GP and C-Webb at his side with tough, defensive guys like Thurmond, Rodman, Noah, and TAllen. That's just unreal talent around the GOAT. I think the edge Kshutt’s starting 5 has is just slightly outdone by the talent Buffalo has off his bench and having peak Jordan.

As for Kurple and Barkleynash..Gonna go with Barkleynash here. Kurple’s team might be the most well constructed and balanced, and somehow found a way to make AI fit in well in his roster..but I think this is a case of talent overwhelming fit.

Kareem is the best player on the court for Kurple…but then you could argue Barkley has the next 4 best players in Magic, Dr J, peak pre-injury Sabas, and Pettit (going by rep here, didn’t watch him at all). I think Kawhi, Klay, Vlade are all incredible role players to have for how unique their games are..

Kurple’s starting 5, despite the talent differential, would be able to hold its own against Barkley’s 5 imo. Building around Kareem makes it easy from the start..surround him with one of the GOAT shooters in Ray, elite leader and all-around PG in Chauncey, excellent slasher and point-forward in Hill, etc and you have as well rounded a roster as you could hope for around peak Kareem.

That being said I think if Barkley staggers his lineup and lets 1 or 2 of Dr J, Magic, Sabas, and Pettit play huge minutes with the 2nd unit..I think it could get overwhelming. I think Sabas could do a terrific job against Kareem with his combination of size, quickness, skill, BBIQ, etc.

And after that I see an incredible matchup problem with Magic vs Billups..you could switch Prince or Hill onto him..but over the course of 48 minutes I could see Magic having a field day against that defense. I think Kawhi can do a great job on Ray, but I think Ray might be physically outmatched in defending Kawhi if he gets hot.

Iverson is the X-factor. If he can buy in to the collective effort and score within the flow of the game..which I think he could with the leadership around him..it could make things interesting.

But overall I’m gonna give the edge to Barkleynash.

[kshutts1]

I love the Jordan over-rating that is done by fans.

Or is it a West/Oscar underrating? Next time I'll draft a team of all 80's and later.

Yes, I'm bitter.

What century did Jordan play in? The same as Oscar. Oscar is named player of the century. Jordan is not.

Bowen is an all time great wing defender, West is an all time great scorer and creator with a better shot than Jordan, but Jordan is the one still getting his, and West is an after thought?
Jerry West was UNSTOPPABLE. In an earlier league, where low field goal %s are expected (and often cited as evidence of a worse game) West shot 45-51% for every year of his career, excluding his rookie campaign. He averaged 22 and 20 ppg at ages 34 and 35, shooting 48 and 45%. But yeah, Payton easily handles him, while Jordan manhandles Bowen.

People reference Dikembe for my team. He's an after thought in this matchup. I appreciate the time you took to read the break downs.

Donyell Marshall, in a vacuum, does not belong in this draft. But a player that is asked to shoot 3s and defend, and with averages of 2.3 threes made per game at 41.6% shooting, 6.6 rebounds, .7 steals, .6 blocks, all in 25 mins? That guy belongs. So what if his name is Donyell Marshall?

[barkleynash]

I think Team Buffalo has more overall talent but isn't used as effectively compared to Team Kshutt's talent which in my opinion fits together better. Jordan would obviously get the better of Oscar but Oscar wouldn't go down silently. He would have to deal with annoying Bowen on offense and then have a relatively fresh Oscar to deal with defensively. I give West a fairly big edge over Payton who won't have as many opportunities to go back at him as Jordan will be dominating the ball. Overall perimeter play I have fairly even leaving it up to the bigs where Malone is the best of the crop and is the difference in my mind.

Malone gets revenge on MJ for getting dusted in 2 straight finals...even though he needed the Big O and Jerry West to do a ton of the heavy lifting...

[barkleynash]

I love the Jordan over-rating that is done by fans.


Hard to get over rated when you are already universally recognized as the goat. That being said I do believe guys like Oscar, West, Wilt, Russel, Pettit, Baylor ect usually get the shaft by a large majority of hoop fans

[wally_world]

I agree with kshutts, Oscar and particularly West are greatly overlooked. I'm going with kshutts. I like having Bowen guarding MJ whereas I suppose MJ has to get the defensive assignment against either West or Oscar. Overall still a slight edge to Buffalo on the perimeter but shutts bigs bring them over in 7 games.

Bnash for the other matchup. Kurple has great synergy, but always felt they were lacking a little in talent. With good bigs like Pettit and Sabas to work Kareem and Doc vs GHill, I don't think he has enough elsewhere to leap his team over Bnash.

[Buffalobraves]

What century did Jordan play in? The same as Oscar. Oscar is named player of the century. Jordan is not.

Bowen is an all time great wing defender, West is an all time great scorer and creator with a better shot than Jordan, but Jordan is the one still getting his, and West is an after thought?
Jerry West was UNSTOPPABLE. In an earlier league, where low field goal %s are expected (and often cited as evidence of a worse game) West shot 45-51% for every year of his career, excluding his rookie campaign. He averaged 22 and 20 ppg at ages 34 and 35, shooting 48 and 45%. But yeah, Payton easily handles him, while Jordan manhandles Bowen.



I think that the one of the only guys you could compare from that era who defended like Payton did is Walt Fraizer who gave West fits especially in the 1970's finals. I don't see West being able to take Payton off the dribble very often and Payton has two inches + length to help out on West on the outside. I'm not saying it would be easy for Payton but I'm saying I think its as tough as a match up for West as you could find.

I'm still not sold on the fact that Karl would be able to stop Webber on defense. Webber would have a tough assignment guarding Malone on the block but I think that it also works to Webber's advantage when he has the ball. His game wouldn't be to grind it out vs Karl on the block it would be to take it from the elbow and play his game from there. My point is how much better could Malone defend Webber than Webber could defend Malone? I think an offensive shootout between the two isn't a huge advantage.

[barkleynash]

Congrats to Buffalo for making the finals, looks like I'll be waiting for you there in a battle of offence vs defence...

Link to finals: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10715537#post10715537

[kshutts1]

I think that the one of the only guys you could compare from that era who defended like Payton did is Walt Fraizer who gave West fits especially in the 1970's finals. I don't see West being able to take Payton off the dribble very often and Payton has two inches + length to help out on West on the outside. I'm not saying it would be easy for Payton but I'm saying I think its as tough as a match up for West as you could find.

I'm still not sold on the fact that Karl would be able to stop Webber on defense. Webber would have a tough assignment guarding Malone on the block but I think that it also works to Webber's advantage when he has the ball. His game wouldn't be to grind it out vs Karl on the block it would be to take it from the elbow and play his game from there. My point is how much better could Malone defend Webber than Webber could defend Malone? I think an offensive shootout between the two isn't a huge advantage.
I just found BBRs head2head finder. Doesn't have FG for West, but he averaged 29ppg against Frazier in RS and 25 in PO.

As for Karl v Webber, the difference is that Karl made first team all D that year. Going by that, and how strong/fast/quick he was, I'm sure he could defend Webber.

[kshutts1]

Hard to get over rated when you are already universally recognized as the goat. That being said I do believe guys like Oscar, West, Wilt, Russel, Pettit, Baylor ect usually get the shaft by a large majority of hoop fans
...that's exactly WHY he's overrated. Literally the only reason he's UNIVERSALLY recognized as the GOAT is because of Stern and the media. Keep in mind dude was called the GOAT before he won his second title. Stern/media didn't make Jordan; their plan would have failed if he was not amazing. But they just gave him that extra push from "all time great" to "goat".

He is PHENOMENAL. I have him in my top tier (top 7-8 of all time), but to have any player be universally regarded as the GOAT is just silly. Impossible to do with so many era and positional differences.

[kshutts1]

Buffalo did have a hell of a team. If I could have voted for him without completely torpedoing any credibility my team offered, I would have (same for Kurple). :cheers:

[wally_world]

...that's exactly WHY he's overrated. Literally the only reason he's UNIVERSALLY recognized as the GOAT is because of Stern and the media. Keep in mind dude was called the GOAT before he won his second title. Stern/media didn't make Jordan; their plan would have failed if he was not amazing. But they just gave him that extra push from "all time great" to "goat".

He is PHENOMENAL. I have him in my top tier (top 7-8 of all time), but to have any player be universally regarded as the GOAT is just silly. Impossible to do with so many era and positional differences.

Ehhh that's pushing it. I don't think there's any denying MJ is the GOAT. But what I'm trying to say is, he isn't unbeatable. The team with MJ usually gets too many free passes in a tournament like this.